How To Be Less Anxious and More Useful in a Chaotic World | Oren Jay Sofer

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It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Hello,
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my fellow suffering beings. It is hectic out there. I'm
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talking about the news, but also the nature of our
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own little worlds, often our own interpersonal dramas. And then,
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of course, there's the tumultuous nature of our own inner landscapes.
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all of the intracranial chaos, both reacting to and feeding
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the chaos around us. Today, we're going to talk to
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a renowned Buddhist teacher about how to be less anxious
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and more useful in the face of the various dumpster
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fires raging in the world, both externally and internally.
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Oren J.
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Sofer has been practicing meditation since 1997. He's also developed
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a fascinating subspecialty in mindful communication, skills that I've personally
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found to be extremely powerful. He's got a new book
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called Your Heart Was Made for This, which lays out
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26 qualities, many of them inspired by Buddhism, for both
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navigating and positively impacting a chaotic world, from managing how
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you interact with media to the role of expectations and
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to the simple power of mindfulness. We also talk about
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aspiration as a powerful tool, how joy, even though it
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may sound a little saccharine, can help you persevere. And
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this is interesting, how to reframe the concept of devotion,
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which might not go down easy for some of you,
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so that it can apply to your everyday life.
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Oren Jace over. Welcome back to the show.
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Thanks so much, Dan. Happy to be here.
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Happy to have you here.
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If I understand correctly, this new book was inspired by
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some tough stuff in the world and in your life,
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including the pandemic and one death and one birth. Can
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you kind of walk us through the biographical backdrop for
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this new work?
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Sure. Absolutely. I started writing the book in the summer
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of 2020 when everything was going haywire. My wife was
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pregnant with our first child. We had just entered a
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global pandemic. George Floyd had just been murdered on national television.
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And there were really awful wildfires out here in the West,
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some of the worst we've experienced. We had this one
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day where you couldn't see the sun, the sky was
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this kind of very eerie orange. And one of the
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things that I felt like I could offer as a
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meditation teacher was to write about how to handle what
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was happening and how to develop more inner resources in
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order to stay sane and balanced and also respond helpfully
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to what was happening. And all of this kind of
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unfolding also, including getting ready to have a child and
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bring a new life into this world, started a kind
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of deeper investigation of how do I respond? You know,
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how is this practice that I've been doing for 20
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years relevant? How can we meet the really immense rapid
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changes that are happening around the world. So the book
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grew out of that and out of my own investigation
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into how do we respond? How is our practice relevant?
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And it's kind of a natural progression in some ways.
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Like as I look back, I started meditating in my
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late teens. And then my first attempts at integrating the practice,
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as you know, because it's how we met, was to
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begin doing communication work, looking at nonviolent communication and trying
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to bring the practice into relationships in that way. And
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I've spent the last almost 20 years focusing on that.
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And then more recently, really looking at how do we
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bridge that gap from the interpersonal to more of the
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social and the collective. And that's really what I'm grappling
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with in the book, looking at not just meditation, but
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the whole realm of contemplative practice and how we can
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use it as leverage to respond to what's happening around
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the world.
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You left this out and maybe this was for a
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reason and I don't mean to pick at a scab.
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No, I know where you're going. Yeah. So my father
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passed away. Yeah. During the, uh, the final editing of
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the book, the book was already written, um, and edited
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and the editing was really challenging. It really pushed me
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to my limits, which is one of the reasons I'm
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so excited about the book. Um, I was editing the book,
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you know, in those early months of having a newborn
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with sleepless nights, I would, sit up on the bed
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with my laptop as my son was sleeping next to
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me and edit the book. And then my father passed
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away suddenly earlier this year. And it really, really shook
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my world in a lot of ways. The first parent
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I've lost. Then I went back and needed to update
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a few things. The book is dedicated to him in
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part because I feel like he embodied a lot of
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what I'm trying to transmit. terms of courage and integrity
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and unconditional love. But I also gained certain painful insights
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about our relationship after he passed and some of the
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ways that my heart was not as open to him
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as I thought it was. In the wake of his loss,
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I really saw the places that I was still reacting
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to the things about his life that were painful for me,
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his inability to really take care of his health being
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the main one. So I had to go back to
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a couple of chapters because I talk about him and
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our relationship throughout the book and integrate some of those
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insights about forgiveness and about mindfulness and how it reveals
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the different places in our hearts and in our world,
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our lives that need attention. But sometimes we don't see
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everything that we need to, and we need the feedback
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of others or unexpected events in our life to see clearly.
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So that's the relevance of that piece and didn't include
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it because it wasn't so much a motivation in writing
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the book, but more of a, almost like a PS.
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A PS that then had you do some retroactive editing
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to bake it into the momentum of the book. You know,
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this thing you said about your dad, it just got
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me thinking, we had a discussion on the show recently
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with Sharon Salzberg about a common misunderstanding that people bring
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to Buddhism, because in Buddhism, we talk a lot about
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love and compassion. And we also talk a lot about non-attachment.
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And people are like, how can I integrate those two?
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And it really is, and this is just a TLDR about,
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you can still care for somebody, but Without being too
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attached to them being a certain way.
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Right.
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And without being too attached to them writ large because they,
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like you, like everyone, were all impermanent. And so when
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I hear you talk about your heart not being fully
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open to your dad, obviously that's not my preferred answer. Verbiage,
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but I'm repeating back yours just for the sake of simplicity,
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your heart not being fully open to your dad.
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Yeah.
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And because he was unwilling or apparently seems like not
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unable to be attentive to his health.
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Yeah.
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And so I wonder if there was a bit of
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attachment in your love for him wanting to take care
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of his health more than he was willing or able to.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, another way that I talk
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about it, just to relanguage it, is that I recognized
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afterwards that I was withholding some of my love from
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him because it was too painful. And yeah, absolutely, it's
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about equanimity or the lack thereof. And I'm sure you
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and Sharon talked about how to define that word attachment
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and the differentiation between The Buddhist word we're translating and
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healthy psychological attachment, a sense of emotional bonding that we
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have with those we love. And I like the word
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Sharon uses to translate the Buddhist term upadana, which she
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translates as control. And I think that the way I
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understand it is there was resistance to the pain. So
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it's not so much that, yeah, there's an aspect of
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me wanting to control my dad, wanting to, you know,
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why won't you do what I want you to do?
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And it was a long journey. And I feel actually
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quite proud of how far I've come or how far
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I came over the last 20 years since I started
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practicing and how much I was able to actually accept
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him for who he was. We grew very close because
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of that. And yet still, because I care for him
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so deeply, It's painful to see someone we love not well.
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And so the withholding of my love, that sense of
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something not being fully open inside, was about my own
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inability to tolerate the pain of feeling helpless in the
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face of his choices.
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Yeah, so some self-protection.
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Yeah, yeah, some self-protection. And then the pain of regret,
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which is a very uncomfortable but powerful teacher. He was
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a tremendously generous person. His name actually means to give,
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his first name. And even in his passing, he gave
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me a gift, which is this deep understanding of how
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to open my heart to the people I love and
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not take things for granted. He's present in my relationship
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with my wife and my son today because of that
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in a really beautiful way.
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So the book is about.
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how we use the Dharma in our own lives, inside
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of our own minds, inside of our closest relationships, but
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also about how we engage with the larger world, especially
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at a time when it looks like everything's going to shit,
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or at least that's, we can talk about that actually,
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because I sometimes think we take the pessimism a little
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touch too far, but we can talk about that. You were,
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if I understand correctly, deeply influenced by what's called social
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engaged Buddhism, this idea that like, let's get off the
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cushion and out into the world. Is the thesis there
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that if you're just meditating for stress reduction, you're doing
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it wrong?
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I appreciate that question. You touched on a lot of
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important things there. So maybe we can hit them one
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at a time and just start where you ended. Um,
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I wouldn't frame it that way. I think that meditating
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for stress reduction is a valid, you know, motivation. It's
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a valid reason. We all want to feel less stressed.
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But I think we're limiting ourselves if that's the only
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thing we're doing. And, you know, I think your own
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life and work is kind of a testament to the
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power of these practices to offer one thing that seems
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very simple and then to actually take us much deeper.
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into powerful questions about what's my life about and how
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can I contribute in the most meaningful way? So the
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thesis of socially engaged Buddhism is that we have to
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apply the essence of Buddhist practice, which is understanding how
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and why we suffer and responding to that suffering. to society.
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And if we're practicing in a sincere way, that starts
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to happen naturally, that when we start seeing more clearly
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and experiencing more compassion, which I know you've been exploring
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and reflecting on deeply for the last few years, there's
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a natural movement to respond to injustice or to pain
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in the world. Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Zen master
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and poet and peace activist. He was one of the
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kind of founders of socially engaged Buddhism. And one of
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the things he said was that mindfulness has to be engaged.
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Once we see clearly, we have to act. Otherwise, what's
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the use of seeing? And the example from his life,
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which is so powerful, was he was meditating in the
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temple with his monastics in Vietnam during the Vietnam War,
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and there were bombs going off in the village. And
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there's that sense of what are we going to do?
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Are we just going to sit here and meditate? No,
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we're going to go out in the street and help people.
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There's just this natural movement of someone's in pain. They
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need help. I'm going to respond. And so this is
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the teaching of socially engaged Buddhism. And I think this
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is an area where for a variety of conditions and
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reasons in the West, meditation becomes relegated to the domain
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of psychological well-being. And we limit the power of these
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practices to actually inform our response to the challenges that
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we're facing today. Does that answer the question?
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Yeah, I think so.
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Basically, it's okay, especially at the beginning, if your motivation
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to meditate is to reduce your own suffering, stress, depression, anxiety, burnout.
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Yeah.
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Anger, whatever it is. And the traditional teachings are that
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that's step one. And there are many steps involved with,
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you know, improving your relationship to the larger world, which also,
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by the way, redounds to your benefit because we are intertwined.
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Absolutely. And I would even say it's more than okay.
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It's actually encouraged. Like that's where we need to start.
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If we're drowning, we can't help somebody else, right? We
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need to be on solid ground first in order to
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help someone else who's drowning. So the first step is
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to sort of get some perspective, get a handle on
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our stress, the overwhelm that we experience when we look
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at the news, the burnout we're going through from work,
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and actually develop more balance inside. That positions us to
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be able to be more effective in the world, whether
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we're looking at parenting, our work, or civil society. And
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So the book is really designed to look at both
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sides of that. It's looking at how do we strengthen
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our hearts? How do we develop the inner resources inside
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so that we're not drowning? And then how do we
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investigate what's ours to do? There's way too much need
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in the world for us to try to do everything.
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which also means that there's too much need in the
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world to do nothing. So each of us, I think,
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is invited just by virtue of being alive today and
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caring to look and see what's ours to do. Where
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is the place that I can contribute meaningfully? And the
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beautiful thing about that is when we get involved, when
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we actually start to or continue to respond to what's
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happening in our communities, that brings energy. It brings confidence.
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It It actually addresses the anxiety. So I was talking
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with someone last night on a call I was teaching,
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and this person was asking about a certain kind of
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deep fear and pain of being rejected, that they orient
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to the world looking for rejection, feeling afraid of being rejected.
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And the response I gave was a classical meditation teacher response.
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It was acknowledge how that's trying to help you to
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keep safe and then practice loving kindness, develop more of
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a sense of belonging and well-being inside. And last night
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I was lying to go to bed, I was falling asleep,
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and I said, oh, I missed the most important thing.
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I said, get involved with something, serve, help other people.
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then you'll start to feel like you belong. You'll start
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to feel your own sense of self-worth and dignity because
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that's part of what it is to be human, is
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to want to have purpose and meaning and to be connected.
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And I think we overlook that a lot in meditation.
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We just focus on the internal and forget that actually
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holding the door for someone or getting involved with a
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local organization heals us also.
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I mean, amen to all of that.
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I just.
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Just to add, and this may be controversial in some circles,
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you may not agree with it. So maybe I'm wrong.
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I mean, you can disabuse me of this notion. But
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for me, I hear a kind of enlightened self-interest at
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every point along that chain. It is in your best
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interest to not be so fucking crazy or depressed or whatever.
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I'm speaking for myself here. It's in my best interest
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to not be so fucking crazy because it doesn't feel
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good if I'm paying attention. And once I've calmed myself
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down a little bit, it is in my best interest
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to work on my relationship with people around me and
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people in the world, the larger world, or even just
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in local situation, because that's going to make me happier.
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We're not calling for people to live lives of limitless
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self-sacrifice and self-mortification. This is actually, what did the Buddhists say?
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Good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in
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the end.
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Yeah. No, precisely. Yeah. That's one of the things I
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appreciate about the perspective you bring to these practices is
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it really speaks to that very, very fundamental, natural human
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tendency to go, well, what's in it for me? Why
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should I do this? It's because it feels good to give.
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It is enlightened self-interest to use the Dalai Lama's phrase there. Yeah.
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So you talked about the pessimism, the narrative about what's
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happening in the world. And I really appreciate that you
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say that because I I'm not sure what all of
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your views are, but I do think we need a
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balanced view. And what I see a lot is unbalanced
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views that on the one hand, there's this extreme of
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just emphasizing the progress, right? Millions have been lifted out
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of poverty. Life expectancy is greater, right? All of the
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benefits of modern society, which are true, but there's also
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the other side, right? There's also the sense that something
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is deeply wrong. in terms of the environmental crisis that
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we're living through, the political crisis around the world, the
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mental health crisis here and abroad. Then on the other side,
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we have the sectors of society or the media that
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are only emphasizing that, right? Everything's going to hell. We're
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all going down and doesn't actually acknowledge the tremendous progress
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we've made and the good that's actually happening, the innovation,
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the creativity. So I don't think it's either or. I
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think both are true. And if we only focus on
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one side, we miss the reality, which is that both
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are happening and we can engage with and be involved
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in both sides of it.
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Amen.
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That's exactly where I am.
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I was just having this discussion yesterday with, I won't
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name this person because I didn't get her permission, but
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this is somebody both of us know in the Dharma world.
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And I was saying and I felt a little kind
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of unsafe and tentative saying it. But yes, I think
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it's true that there are lots of horrible things happening
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in the world, particularly with the climate, but obviously also
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political instability as well. Polarization aided and abetted by social media.
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I'm worried about all of that.
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And.
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The data around alleviation and reduction of poverty and the
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data around life expectancy, they.
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Appear to be quite strong.
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And on top of that, I think it's just I'm
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wary of the overly dark view because we do have
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this evolutionarily wired negativity bias.
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It helped us survive.
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And I fear that that bias seeps into a kind
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of You know, I'm seeing it with a lot of
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my friends, this really dark view of the world, this
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really dark view of the future, which is it seems
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like half right. And I think we need to be both.
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And just as you said.
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Yeah. And I think that one of the things that
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I'm trying to promote and argue against in my book
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is the tendency to try to simplify things into simple binaries.
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It's either this or it's that. And life is often
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more complex and nuanced. And I think this is an
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example of that. So even when we talk about the
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alleviation of poverty, at the same time, we're seeing some
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of the grossest income inequality in generations. Both are true.
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So there's nuance and complexity there. And that's what any robust... healthy,
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grounded contemplative practice will illuminate is that it's complex to
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be alive. And how do we contend with that? And
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how do we find our place within that?
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How do you respond?
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Inevitably, there are going to be people I can hear
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them typing their tweets right now saying, or their exes
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or whatever they're called right now, saying, well, easy for
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you guys to have a rosy view of the world
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because you're both rich white dudes. So maybe we have
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a bias and are missing key things.
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Yeah. When I hear that, I need to look at,
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first of all, who's saying it and to make space
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to listen to where they're coming from. say, I appreciate
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when people give me feedback or have a different perspective
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because it gives me an opportunity to investigate and learn.
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And yeah, to the degree that that's true, you know,
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we both have a lot of advantages because of our
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various aspects of our identity and are going to experience
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the world through that lens. It's one of the things
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I talk about in the chapter on mindfulness is that
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we need to apply mindfulness to our relationships, and to
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investigate what's the bias that we're seeing the world through.
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So I'm wanting to make space for other views, and
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I'm wanting to also hold complexity. One of the things
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that I see destroying movements for social change, and it's
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tragic and it's ironic, is the way that the narrative
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becomes this kind of us-them binary, you're either with us
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or you're against us, or the dynamics of cancel culture,
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or the right-wrong mentalities. And if we're looking to actually
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heal and transform some of the dynamics that are creating
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so much injustice and oppression and suffering in our society
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and around the world, we also need to look at
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the roots of that in our own minds and how
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we create an enemy, how we reduce things to just
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saying it's either this or that. And that's one of
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the gifts, I think, of meditation and contemplative practice is
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that we're able to turn that critical lens inwards and
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see Where am I coming from and how can I
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transform the way I'm showing up and the way I'm
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working for social change so that I'm not unwittingly recreating
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the very dynamics I'm seeking to heal or to change?
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Yeah, I think just to put a fine point on this,
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I think just a lot of things are true at
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the same time. And speaking for myself, because I'm not
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in your mind, I know I have lots of blind
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spots and biases. The problem is I don't know what
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they are because definitionally blind spots are hard to see.
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And so I'm very open to being wrong on an
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ongoing basis. And I think in terms of the state
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of the world, it's, to use your word, it is complex.
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And I actually think that's the sanest place to be
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when viewing things, actually. It will keep you sane to
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be open to the complexity because choosing either side in
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a binary is actually going to make you more blinkered.
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Yeah.
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Coming up, Oren J.
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Sofer talks about what inspired the title of his newest
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book and why the cultivation of attention and aspirations can
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be extremely powerful tools. The book has 26 Buddhist tools
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for dealing with a world that is complex and tumultuous.
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Before we dive into some, we'll do a sampling of
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some of the tools. But Let's talk about the title.
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I gave you a little grief earlier about the word heart,
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which is the word heart.
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Yes.
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But this is in the title. The book is called
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Your Heart Was Made For This. So and I'm not
420
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asking this to be a wiseass. I genuinely want to
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know what's behind the title.
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Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Well, just to respond to the lead
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in there, the intro there, I wouldn't even call them
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Buddhist tools. You know, while I talk about some of
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the Buddhist roots of the book, I really see them
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as universal tools and humanistic tools. Is courage Buddhist? Is
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curiosity Buddhist? No, these are core facets of our humanity.
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And that's really what I'm trying to speak to and
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offer is a kind of a roadmap for strengthening these very,
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very potent transformative capacities we have as human beings so
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that we can have the humility to take feedback when
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we're wrong or someone is seeing something that we're not seeing,
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and also to discern where are the places where I
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can plug in and contribute. So the title, Your Heart
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Was Made for This, it's a little bit of a
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play on words in some ways. One of the things
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that I feel and hear from a lot of other
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people is when the world appears in this very dark
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way of what is the future going to be, it
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feels overwhelming. And there's a sense of almost despair or cynicism, right?
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Like it's too much. There's nothing I can do. And
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so on the one hand, it's a sort of hopeful
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message of like, actually, we have what we need, or
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we can cultivate what we need to deal with what's
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unfolding in our lives and in the world. The reason
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I say it's a play on words is because at
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the same time, I'm trying to remind all of us
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that on an evolutionary level, we were not designed to
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live in the world we're living in. We evolved to
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live in small communities with people that we know, to
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have a shared sense of meaning and purpose, to have
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periods of downtime that are restorative on a regular basis.
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We were designed to have information just about the things
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that we know immediately in our community, not to be
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bombarded with. with stories of tragedy from around the world
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that we oftentimes can't do anything about, nor to be
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sort of like molded and shaped by social media algorithms
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and technology. So in a very real way, I think
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that we find ourselves in a world that is at
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odds with our neurophysiology. So on this level, the title
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Your Heart Was Made For This is more pointing to
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our capacity to fulfill our potential. I really believe that our,
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and you can use a lot of different words for heart.
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You could say our mind, you could say our spirit,
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you could say our consciousness, you could just say being human,
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that we have this potential to be incredibly fulfilled, kind,
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and powerful creatures, to really use our life to blossom,
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to grow. in these amazing ways. And that's what our
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heart was made for. And that's what the book is
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offering is this kind of instruction manual to realize our potential.
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And then that positions us to play a role in
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the healing and transformation of our lives, our families, and
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our communities.
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Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I mean,
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it does.
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You mentioned I've been forever working on a book, and
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it's actually, it really kind of lands in the same
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idea that you're articulating here, which is that We are
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designed for this kind of engagement. And I often talk
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about how, especially men, we optimize for sleep and optimize
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for exercise and diet and all this stuff. And it's
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not just men. A lot of us are optimizing these days.
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But if you really want to optimize, the thing to
484
00:28:03.829 --> 00:28:06.569
do is to work on your relationship. If you are
485
00:28:06.609 --> 00:28:11.329
looking to be happy, healthy, and live a long life.
486
00:28:12.049 --> 00:28:16.660
Because we are such embedded creatures. We aren't isolated beings.
487
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.619
egos peering fretfully out at the world from behind our
488
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.440
eye sockets. We're part of the world. And those relationships,
489
00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:25.960
it's not just your intimates, it's also the larger world.
490
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.380
And so that is our design. And because that's our design,
491
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.420
we're perfectly situated, each and every one of us, to
492
00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:36.220
deal with a world that can seem pretty shitty sometimes.
493
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.049
Yeah. You know, one of the things about having a
494
00:28:39.089 --> 00:28:44.750
kid that's been so enlightening in both the colloquial and
495
00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:49.230
sort of more technical definition of that word is seeing
496
00:28:49.309 --> 00:28:56.440
how innate these qualities are, seeing our son's joy just
497
00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.970
at being and exploring the world. And seeing how he's
498
00:29:01.089 --> 00:29:04.299
only one and how natural it is to want to contribute.
499
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.519
So I was making breakfast this morning and I gave
500
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.900
him the, you know, a little box of almond milk.
501
00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:12.000
And I said, can you put it in the refrigerator?
502
00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:14.019
Can you put it back? And he's so excited to
503
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:15.619
walk over to the fridge and put it in. I said,
504
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.700
can you close the door to the refrigerator for me?
505
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.759
And he's so excited to be able to close the door.
506
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:23.329
You know, it's like we want to participate and contribute
507
00:29:23.369 --> 00:29:26.839
to those around us. And for so many reasons and
508
00:29:26.859 --> 00:29:31.619
in so many ways, that gets distorted and twisted by
509
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.549
shame and obligation and duty and all of these experiences
510
00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:39.869
and messages we receive from compulsory education and the media.
511
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:45.990
and oftentimes our families that kind of covers over this very,
512
00:29:46.049 --> 00:29:50.329
very natural impulse to experience joy when we are connected
513
00:29:50.390 --> 00:29:51.029
and contribute.
514
00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:54.170
So you've got these 26 tools. My bad for calling
515
00:29:54.190 --> 00:29:57.299
them Buddhist tools. These 26 tools, very much, I think,
516
00:29:57.819 --> 00:29:59.460
influenced by Buddhism nonetheless.
517
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.779
Absolutely, yeah. I won't hide that.
518
00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:05.579
Nor should you. Definitely not here. This is a friendly
519
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.400
place for Buddhists and Buddhism. We're not going to get, obviously,
520
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.009
to all 26 of them, and people should read the book.
521
00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:12.970
But let's touch on a few of them. You start
522
00:30:12.990 --> 00:30:15.910
with attention. Why attention?
523
00:30:17.190 --> 00:30:23.500
Absolutely. What we pay attention to... Shapes our inner atmosphere
524
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.960
and it affects the choices that are available to us.
525
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:33.329
And specifically there is a multi-billion dollar industry competing for
526
00:30:33.490 --> 00:30:40.069
our attention, right? We know that the more screens can
527
00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:44.180
capture our attention, the more advertising revenue and profit someone
528
00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:48.839
is generating. So if you can influence attention, if you
529
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:53.079
can control attention, you can influence action. So it's profit
530
00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:58.140
and it's also action, behavior. So I start with attention
531
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:03.910
because developing agency over where we place our attention is
532
00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:07.890
the first step to empowerment and transformation. If we can't
533
00:31:08.049 --> 00:31:11.210
choose where we place our attention, someone else is choosing
534
00:31:11.259 --> 00:31:14.279
it for us or we are dragged around by our habits.
535
00:31:15.730 --> 00:31:19.809
So the simple exercise or experiment I invite people to do,
536
00:31:19.910 --> 00:31:22.210
and anyone listening can do this right now, is to
537
00:31:22.250 --> 00:31:25.490
just notice what you're seeing and now notice what you're hearing.
538
00:31:26.269 --> 00:31:29.359
Notice the sounds around you. There you go. You just
539
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.819
shifted your attention. You just chose where to put your attention.
540
00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:37.559
That very basic fundamental capacity that we all have, we
541
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.960
can choose to strengthen it. And to actually choose where
542
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.200
we're putting our attention is a radical act. We can
543
00:31:45.259 --> 00:31:49.819
begin to make different choices that actually strengthen us rather
544
00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:53.990
than stress us out and leave us exhausted. So when
545
00:31:54.029 --> 00:31:57.589
you have five minutes between things, where are we placing
546
00:31:57.650 --> 00:32:00.009
our attention? Are we ruminating on all of the things
547
00:32:00.049 --> 00:32:01.849
that are worrying us and the things that we have
548
00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:06.359
to do? Are we picking up the phone and scrolling
549
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:09.180
through a feed? Or are we able to really consider
550
00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:11.339
what would be useful right now? What would feel good
551
00:32:11.380 --> 00:32:15.519
and nourishing right now? How are we using our attention inwardly?
552
00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:18.500
What are we thinking about? What are we focusing on?
553
00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:21.799
And how are we using our attention outwardly? Are we
554
00:32:21.859 --> 00:32:25.660
just using the screen to self-regulate? Or are we engaging
555
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.349
with the things that are really nourishing in our world
556
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:32.690
to actually recharge us, noticing the sky, noticing the trees,
557
00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:36.849
enjoying a breath of fresh air? So when we reclaim
558
00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:43.769
our attention, we garner tremendous power and resources inside Because
559
00:32:43.829 --> 00:32:48.609
we are taking back something that's fundamentally ours, and that
560
00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:49.710
is a limited resource.
561
00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:53.849
All that is super helpful. Let me just play the,
562
00:32:54.150 --> 00:32:57.750
not the skeptic, but the drowning person who might say,
563
00:32:57.769 --> 00:32:59.960
I got to look at a computer all day long
564
00:32:59.980 --> 00:33:02.319
for work, and then I'm exhausted at the end of
565
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:04.500
the day, and I just want to scroll, and I
566
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:06.720
know it's not good for me, but I get sucked in.
567
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.940
And by the way, I've got all these other emails
568
00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:10.640
and texts I need to answer, so I got to
569
00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:12.980
be on there anyway. I don't see how I get
570
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.940
away from this garage.
571
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.920
Yeah, I don't have the luxury to do that, right?
572
00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:18.039
Yeah.
573
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:24.059
So there's two things here. One is not being idealistic
574
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:31.069
and making choices where we have agency. So the tendency
575
00:33:31.089 --> 00:33:34.609
to be idealistic, painting a picture that's not actually possible
576
00:33:34.690 --> 00:33:38.549
versus what's it like when you get up from your desk, say,
577
00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:42.599
to go get another cup of coffee, to just stretch
578
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.500
your arms for 10 seconds. How does that feel? There
579
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:51.000
are little ways that we can integrate these practices in
580
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:55.369
the book into our lives that don't involve some Herculean shift.
581
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.940
That's number one. Number two is that all of the
582
00:33:59.009 --> 00:34:02.069
qualities kind of work together in the book. And this
583
00:34:02.089 --> 00:34:03.529
is one of the things I say in the introduction
584
00:34:03.589 --> 00:34:06.289
is that it's written chronologically, chapter 1 to 26, but
585
00:34:07.789 --> 00:34:10.550
we need to use our own intelligence and start where
586
00:34:10.590 --> 00:34:13.809
we are. So there's a chapter on rest. So when
587
00:34:13.869 --> 00:34:17.769
I hear what you're describing, which is the challenge so
588
00:34:17.809 --> 00:34:20.429
many of us are locked into, chained to a computer,
589
00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:23.739
working at a desk job, it's like, well, what's actually needed?
590
00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:28.260
Maybe it's finding more strategies for rest and it's being
591
00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:31.880
able to just shut your eyes for 30 seconds before
592
00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:35.719
you switch from doing this email to the next meeting.
593
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.599
So making it really manageable and also using wisdom around
594
00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:43.780
how am I training myself? And this is really one
595
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:48.389
of the fundamental principles behind the book, which comes from Buddhism,
596
00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:53.989
which is that we're always practicing something. We're always practicing something.
597
00:34:54.170 --> 00:35:00.039
So are we practicing being frustrated, stressed out, rushing, impatient,
598
00:35:00.059 --> 00:35:07.360
or are we able to practice being thoughtful with ourselves, kind,
599
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:11.860
generous in small ways, when we start to recognize that
600
00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:14.920
everything we're doing, and again, this is about attention, every
601
00:35:14.980 --> 00:35:19.940
choice we're making, everything we're doing is actually shaping our
602
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.059
own mind for better or for worse. We can start
603
00:35:23.099 --> 00:35:27.320
making different choices, even small ones every day, so that
604
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.750
we're growing stronger, more resilient, more flexible, rather than more
605
00:35:31.809 --> 00:35:34.550
strung out, more tired, more exhausted.
606
00:35:35.369 --> 00:35:38.289
Extremely helpful. You don't have to make the Herculean shift.
607
00:35:38.389 --> 00:35:42.179
Start small, insert little breaks of mindfulness or rest into
608
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:46.159
your day and see what happens. Another entry on your
609
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:50.800
list is aspiration. And I think that harkens back to
610
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.750
a question you raised earlier in the conversation. I believe
611
00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:57.489
you used the words, how to figure out what is
612
00:35:57.630 --> 00:35:58.050
ours to do.
613
00:35:59.630 --> 00:36:02.750
Yeah, this is such a powerful capacity that we have
614
00:36:02.809 --> 00:36:04.610
as human beings. And I think one of the reasons
615
00:36:04.670 --> 00:36:09.969
why there's so much depression and anxiety, so much despair
616
00:36:10.050 --> 00:36:15.300
and hopelessness is the loss of aspiration. So aspiration is
617
00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:18.500
the sense of what's possible for us in life. It's
618
00:36:18.699 --> 00:36:23.639
a certain, almost a longing inside for something better, for
619
00:36:23.659 --> 00:36:28.349
something more fulfilling or meaningful or just or good. And
620
00:36:28.389 --> 00:36:31.469
the reason it's so important is because if we don't
621
00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:34.659
have an aspiration, it's like our North Star. It's where
622
00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:37.619
we're headed. What's the point? What's the purpose? If we
623
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.239
don't have that, we don't have energy. Aspiration brings energy.
624
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.119
It invites us to really look inside and say, what's
625
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:48.659
most important to me in my life? What am I about?
626
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:55.920
So for those who are parents, just having that motivation,
627
00:36:56.260 --> 00:37:00.369
that intention. These are synonyms for aspiration. Like, I really
628
00:37:00.429 --> 00:37:04.309
want a parent with care and attention and respect for
629
00:37:04.349 --> 00:37:06.969
my children. And then we come back to that every
630
00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:10.869
time we get triggered, every time you want to, you know,
631
00:37:10.989 --> 00:37:13.800
scream or lose your shit with your kids. It's like, wait, no,
632
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:18.320
this is my aspiration. This is what I'm striving to offer,
633
00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:21.650
to bring into my life. Or just even something as
634
00:37:21.690 --> 00:37:24.010
simple as, I want to treat everyone I meet with
635
00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:28.219
kindness and dignity because I feel better. And that's the
636
00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:30.940
kind of world I want to create. So this functions
637
00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:33.840
on an individual level in terms of orienting us and
638
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.019
our life and giving us a sense of purpose and energy.
639
00:37:37.059 --> 00:37:40.289
And it also functions on a social level. You know,
640
00:37:40.329 --> 00:37:44.289
the Declaration of Independence is an aspiration. It's an aspirational
641
00:37:44.309 --> 00:37:48.789
document that has sparked movements for sovereignty and democracy around
642
00:37:48.829 --> 00:37:53.860
the world and revolution. Dr. King's famous speech, I have
643
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:58.260
a dream, it's an aspiration. So we see in social movements,
644
00:37:58.340 --> 00:38:01.800
the articulation of an aspiration, you see se puede, the
645
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:07.940
United Farm Workers slogan, galvanizes people behind a vision of
646
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.389
what's possible. It actually energizes us and calls us to
647
00:38:11.449 --> 00:38:15.130
marshal our resources and say, let's do something different. So
648
00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:17.699
we can do this personally in our own life, And
649
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:20.099
we can do it on a larger level. And again,
650
00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:23.170
it doesn't need to be grand, right? Like if you're
651
00:38:23.210 --> 00:38:26.710
stuck at home with long COVID, your aspiration might be,
652
00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:30.449
today I'm gonna go outside and look at the sun.
653
00:38:31.369 --> 00:38:33.250
It might be, I'm gonna take a shower today. That's
654
00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:35.349
my aspiration. I'm gonna do one thing to take care
655
00:38:35.389 --> 00:38:38.550
of myself. That's enough. It gets the energy going. It
656
00:38:38.730 --> 00:38:41.139
orients us. How's that all land with you?
657
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:42.860
That all lands really well.
658
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:46.050
I mean, I found in my own life, motivation has
659
00:38:46.070 --> 00:38:51.269
been such an interesting area of investigation because I see
660
00:38:51.909 --> 00:38:53.969
that the more mindful I've become, the more I see
661
00:38:54.010 --> 00:38:57.179
that I have craven motivations. I want to get, I
662
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.019
want to be successful. I want to, everything I do to,
663
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:04.260
you know, this podcast to be successful, social media, book sales, blah, blah, blah.
664
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:08.849
And when I see that, sometimes I revolted and tell
665
00:39:08.909 --> 00:39:12.000
myself a story about how I'm a horrible person, which
666
00:39:12.059 --> 00:39:16.280
is stupid, because motivation, as our mutual teacher Joseph Goldstein
667
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:19.340
likes to remind people, is a range. And so yeah,
668
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:21.500
those craven motivations are going to be there for all
669
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:23.869
of us, but there are wholesome motivations. You just have
670
00:39:23.889 --> 00:39:26.030
to look for those too, and then do your best
671
00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:33.019
to emphasize and remind yourself what you're aspiration, intention, motivation is.
672
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:35.889
And so little tricks like, you know, and this is
673
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.829
something that courses in a big way through Buddhism of
674
00:39:38.969 --> 00:39:42.309
like reminding yourself all the time by setting your intention.
675
00:39:42.369 --> 00:39:45.190
My intention is to well, to put it in Dharma
676
00:39:45.210 --> 00:39:48.239
speak to alleviate the suffering of all beings or something
677
00:39:48.409 --> 00:39:53.900
like that. And that can be enormously energizing.
678
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.639
Absolutely. I would even take it a step further and
679
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:04.780
say that those selfish motivations that arise, if we actually
680
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:10.590
get curious about them and cultivate some empathy and compassion
681
00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:17.739
for ourselves, we can start to recognize the really beautiful,
682
00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:20.199
healthy needs beneath them to go back to some of
683
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.139
the nonviolent communication models. Like, you know, I want to be,
684
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:26.079
you know, the most popular, rich and famous. It's like, okay, well,
685
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:28.639
what's going on there? What do I really want? You know, like,
686
00:40:28.739 --> 00:40:33.230
I want to take care of my family. Well, how beautiful. Or, gosh,
687
00:40:33.590 --> 00:40:37.090
I really want to be loved and seen. How tender.
688
00:40:37.650 --> 00:40:41.090
And we start to actually recognize that oh, wow, I
689
00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:44.380
am taking care of my family. Isn't that wonderful? Or, hey,
690
00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:49.039
I can actually, you know, receive the love that's already
691
00:40:49.099 --> 00:40:51.480
here in my life and start to feel fulfilled inside
692
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.880
without needing to chase after that phantom of status and fame.
693
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:59.570
So those very motivations that we might cringe when we
694
00:40:59.650 --> 00:41:03.630
recognize can actually take us more deeply into ourselves and
695
00:41:03.670 --> 00:41:05.849
become something quite liberating and empowering.
696
00:41:06.789 --> 00:41:07.110
Agreed.
697
00:41:07.570 --> 00:41:10.320
And that's really where I've come is to see the
698
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:13.650
various embarrassing parts of my personality with some warmth as
699
00:41:13.909 --> 00:41:15.889
parts of my mind that are doing their best to
700
00:41:15.929 --> 00:41:18.050
protect the organism. It doesn't work all the time, but
701
00:41:18.090 --> 00:41:21.329
it's been very helpful. Having said that, under the rubric
702
00:41:21.349 --> 00:41:24.750
of aspiration, in a world where there are so many problems,
703
00:41:25.449 --> 00:41:27.570
how do we figure out, we can't boil the ocean,
704
00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:30.769
expression I hear a lot, we can't do everything.
705
00:41:31.010 --> 00:41:32.730
How do we figure out our bit?
706
00:41:33.489 --> 00:41:37.010
Yeah, I think that's really the question, Dan, for our times.
707
00:41:38.110 --> 00:41:40.369
And it's a kind of koan, to use a word
708
00:41:40.469 --> 00:41:46.150
from Japanese and Chinese Chan Buddhism. It's a question that
709
00:41:46.389 --> 00:41:49.409
we hold in our mind that takes us to a
710
00:41:49.449 --> 00:41:54.400
different place, to really just ask the question sincerely and
711
00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:58.199
learn how to engage with it in a very honest
712
00:41:58.780 --> 00:42:02.800
and wholehearted way. So some of the messages that run
713
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:06.559
through the book are things like, take care of yourself.
714
00:42:07.550 --> 00:42:11.449
Listen for what you care about. Learn to recognize your
715
00:42:11.530 --> 00:42:14.269
own gifts and skills. What is it that you can offer?
716
00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:18.570
There's so many ways to contribute. And some of it,
717
00:42:18.610 --> 00:42:21.019
I think, is about learning to see ourselves not as
718
00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:25.059
isolated individuals, but as members of a community, as a
719
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:29.159
part of whether it's our local community, our family, larger
720
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.219
civil society. We have tremendous power when we start to
721
00:42:32.260 --> 00:42:36.210
see ourselves embedded in a network. rather than as these isolated,
722
00:42:36.349 --> 00:42:41.389
separate people each trying to recycle or get off fossil fuels.
723
00:42:41.409 --> 00:42:43.869
That's not going to actually get us anywhere because the
724
00:42:43.909 --> 00:42:49.250
issues are much more broad and complex and structural. So
725
00:42:49.269 --> 00:42:52.429
I think it's about the sincere, wholehearted engagement with the
726
00:42:52.489 --> 00:42:57.730
question and developing the capacity to listen deeply and trust ourselves.
727
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.179
And I have a lot of faith and confidence that
728
00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:04.039
if we're each doing that, we will have this beautiful
729
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:11.590
mosaic of skilled, empowered members of the world all working
730
00:43:11.630 --> 00:43:13.429
together to make changes.
731
00:43:15.550 --> 00:43:18.190
Coming up, Warren talks about how mindfulness is not just
732
00:43:18.210 --> 00:43:21.250
about feeling good, why joy, even if it sounds a
733
00:43:21.289 --> 00:43:25.409
little twee, can help us persevere, and how to reframe
734
00:43:25.449 --> 00:43:29.570
the concept of devotion, sometimes a tough concept for skeptics,
735
00:43:29.860 --> 00:43:41.809
so it can apply to your everyday life. Working our
736
00:43:41.849 --> 00:43:45.309
way down through your list, another entry on the list
737
00:43:46.230 --> 00:43:48.699
is mindfulness. It's not going to be surprising that you
738
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:50.800
put mindfulness on the list, given who you are and
739
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:53.260
what you do, but you really do go out of
740
00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:55.800
your way to make a point that I think is
741
00:43:55.880 --> 00:43:58.960
something that people may need to hear, which is that mindfulness,
742
00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:01.840
given that the word has become so common these days,
743
00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:05.239
and we have all these books about mindful parenting, mindful lawyering,
744
00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:09.469
mindful sex, it's not just about feeling good. It's deeper
745
00:44:09.530 --> 00:44:09.869
than that.
746
00:44:10.630 --> 00:44:15.090
Yeah. Mindfulness brings us into relationship with our life, right?
747
00:44:15.690 --> 00:44:19.510
It allows us to not just observe, but to actually
748
00:44:19.590 --> 00:44:23.019
feel what's happening and be aware of it, which is
749
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:28.559
the first step of transformation, right? It's like James Baldwin said,
750
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:32.409
not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing
751
00:44:32.449 --> 00:44:34.269
can be changed until it is faced.
752
00:44:34.289 --> 00:44:34.670
Hmm.
753
00:44:35.110 --> 00:44:37.260
This is kind of this fundamental principle. If you want
754
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.099
to be healthier, if you want to be happier, if
755
00:44:39.139 --> 00:44:41.599
you want there to be a world with clean air
756
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:44.760
and clean water and forests for our children, we need
757
00:44:44.780 --> 00:44:47.300
to actually be aware of what's happening first before we
758
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:51.489
can engage in it. The word mindfulness has been sort
759
00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:56.230
of co-opted by the wellness industry and repackaged as this
760
00:44:56.369 --> 00:45:01.650
kind of very simplified pacifier, right? That's just about feeling better.
761
00:45:02.829 --> 00:45:07.309
And not only does that limit its potential benefit, but
762
00:45:07.469 --> 00:45:13.150
it's actually dangerous because it disconnects us from at least
763
00:45:13.230 --> 00:45:16.389
half of what's true, which is the difficult things that
764
00:45:16.429 --> 00:45:19.860
we experience, the difficult emotions in our lives, the difficult
765
00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:26.219
conditions in our world. And engaging with those painful emotions
766
00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:32.059
or challenging circumstances are precisely what we need to actually
767
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:35.079
begin to heal and transform them. And so one of
768
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.980
the reasons why I've been so connected to 10% Happier
769
00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:41.969
is because I see, you know, the company and the
770
00:45:42.150 --> 00:45:44.610
app and the show trying to do something different in
771
00:45:44.650 --> 00:45:48.130
spite of the somewhat cheeky title or name, like actually
772
00:45:48.210 --> 00:45:53.559
trying to present what mindfulness offers in a more thorough
773
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.000
and robust way that it's not just about feeling good.
774
00:45:56.539 --> 00:45:59.119
It's actually about engaging with all of what it is
775
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:03.550
to be human. So that we can live a complete
776
00:46:03.610 --> 00:46:05.610
whole life and respond to what's needed.
777
00:46:05.630 --> 00:46:08.610
Yeah, I appreciate that. It has been great to have
778
00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:12.489
you on this ride. Speaking of, this I think is
779
00:46:12.510 --> 00:46:15.639
directly relevant, and it's a word you've referenced a couple
780
00:46:15.659 --> 00:46:19.659
times in this discussion, and it's another entry on your
781
00:46:19.699 --> 00:46:22.789
list of 26, joy. And we're talking about the joy
782
00:46:22.809 --> 00:46:25.510
of working together in a project that we believe to
783
00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:28.199
be meaningful. But there are lots of flavors of joy.
784
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:30.679
Can you talk about those flavors and why it's so
785
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.099
important and relevant to this conversation about dealing with a
786
00:46:34.099 --> 00:46:34.860
jacked up world?
787
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.940
Yeah, it was really startling for me when my wife
788
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:42.480
and I got married a little over two years ago
789
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:47.380
now that I had to work to open my heart
790
00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:50.820
to feel all of the joy. I actually didn't have
791
00:46:50.860 --> 00:46:54.760
the capacity. I would get overwhelmed every time I practiced
792
00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:58.780
taking my vows or thought about standing up there in
793
00:46:58.820 --> 00:47:02.190
front of our community and exchanging rings. I would break
794
00:47:02.230 --> 00:47:06.730
down crying because I didn't have the capacity yet to
795
00:47:07.250 --> 00:47:11.690
feel grounded and stable and open and feel that much joy.
796
00:47:11.710 --> 00:47:14.250
I've been in love with this woman since I met her.
797
00:47:14.269 --> 00:47:16.920
We've been together for eight years and we were finally
798
00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:20.300
going to get married. I had to work to open
799
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:22.840
myself enough to feel all that joy. And this was
800
00:47:22.900 --> 00:47:26.880
really eye-opening to me to recognize that we can increase
801
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:31.159
our capacity to feel joy. I think that we as
802
00:47:31.219 --> 00:47:34.550
human beings need joy as much as a plant needs
803
00:47:34.610 --> 00:47:37.909
water and air and light. It's innate to us. And
804
00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:41.409
if we don't have some joy in our life, that's
805
00:47:41.449 --> 00:47:48.599
a very difficult and sad way of being. And there's
806
00:47:48.739 --> 00:47:54.300
the kind of surface joy of pleasures that are often
807
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:59.639
tied to different privileges and advantages and the unequal access
808
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:03.440
we have to resources. But there's deeper joy that comes
809
00:48:03.579 --> 00:48:08.219
from being in touch with life, from having meaningful relationships,
810
00:48:08.989 --> 00:48:14.110
from giving ourselves to something wholeheartedly and feeling the sense
811
00:48:14.150 --> 00:48:17.849
of deep satisfaction that comes. And I think one of
812
00:48:17.889 --> 00:48:21.409
the tragedies of The influence of technology that we've already
813
00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:24.349
talked about and the power of social media is that
814
00:48:24.570 --> 00:48:28.690
we miss so much joy in our lives because we're
815
00:48:28.710 --> 00:48:32.380
too distracted or we're moving too quickly. I think one
816
00:48:32.409 --> 00:48:35.440
of the challenges for all of us today is to
817
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:39.760
learn how to slow down and appreciate life in small ways.
818
00:48:40.699 --> 00:48:44.920
And what that joy starts to do is it recharges us.
819
00:48:45.699 --> 00:48:48.440
It nourishes us so that we do have the energy
820
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.869
to keep working two jobs and still raise the kids
821
00:48:52.469 --> 00:48:56.230
or get out and vote. So one of the things
822
00:48:56.250 --> 00:48:59.239
that I see in my work a lot is that
823
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:03.119
there's these kind of two traps around joy that people
824
00:49:03.179 --> 00:49:07.599
tend to fall into. So on the side of the
825
00:49:07.619 --> 00:49:10.599
kind of wellness industry, we get this narrative that we've
826
00:49:10.619 --> 00:49:12.559
already talked about of just kind of like feel good
827
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:17.909
and be happy. and we associate whether it's meditation or
828
00:49:17.929 --> 00:49:23.340
healing just with feeling good. And then we cut ourselves
829
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:25.599
off from anything painful. We try to put a false
830
00:49:25.780 --> 00:49:29.929
positive spin on it, and we're not actually available to
831
00:49:30.349 --> 00:49:33.730
the rest of life. On the other side, I think
832
00:49:33.750 --> 00:49:36.929
the problem that a lot of Buddhists fall into is
833
00:49:36.989 --> 00:49:41.610
associating spirituality or meditation just with suffering and being serious
834
00:49:42.610 --> 00:49:46.829
and actually feeling afraid of healthy pleasure or joy. And
835
00:49:46.869 --> 00:49:50.030
we get worried like this is going to feed attachment
836
00:49:50.110 --> 00:49:53.050
or desire as we start to cut ourselves off from
837
00:49:53.150 --> 00:49:57.780
actually feeling joyful and experiencing the beauty and the pleasure
838
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:03.260
in life. When the practice is actually feeling all of life,
839
00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:06.960
it's opening to everything, which includes the pain and the joy.
840
00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:12.380
What do we actually do to feel joy?
841
00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:14.880
Maybe one of these easier said than done things.
842
00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:19.110
So I think it starts by just learning how to
843
00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:25.409
be present and open. I think that, again, joy is
844
00:50:25.469 --> 00:50:29.559
a natural thing. experience and capacity that we have as
845
00:50:29.619 --> 00:50:33.579
human beings. In order to feel joy, we have to
846
00:50:33.619 --> 00:50:38.920
be willing and able to receive, to let things in.
847
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:45.059
So we just had the autumn moon festival. The full
848
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.159
moon of the autumn season is a big, big festival
849
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:52.079
in Chinese culture and other Asian cultures. And the other night,
850
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.000
my wife and I were going to bed and she said,
851
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.650
let's go outside and look at the moon. Now, if
852
00:50:57.750 --> 00:51:00.469
I say, oh, I'm tired. I don't want to go outside.
853
00:51:00.550 --> 00:51:03.940
Let's just go to bed. I miss the joy. I'm
854
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:08.159
not willing to be available to go and look, to
855
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.780
actually see it. If we go outside and I'm thinking about, oh,
856
00:51:13.469 --> 00:51:14.849
I've got to get up early and I've got that
857
00:51:14.889 --> 00:51:16.190
phone call and how am I going to do this?
858
00:51:16.429 --> 00:51:21.699
I'm not available. If I'm able to be mindful... to
859
00:51:21.739 --> 00:51:26.130
be present, open, curious, and to just see the moon,
860
00:51:26.429 --> 00:51:28.570
to see it fresh. How many times have I seen
861
00:51:28.590 --> 00:51:30.789
the moon in my life? I'm 46 years old, right?
862
00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:32.309
I don't know how many times I've seen the moon,
863
00:51:32.369 --> 00:51:36.130
but that's all in the past. I've never seen this
864
00:51:36.250 --> 00:51:38.869
moon right now on this night. And I just open
865
00:51:38.909 --> 00:51:45.550
my eyes and see this big, beautiful, yellow orb in
866
00:51:45.590 --> 00:51:49.269
the sky. It's like, wow, look at that. And some
867
00:51:49.309 --> 00:51:55.289
joy arises. Because I'm available, I'm present, right? So, you know,
868
00:51:55.449 --> 00:51:58.949
drinking a cup of tea, to be able to be
869
00:51:59.010 --> 00:52:04.739
present and smell the aroma and feel the heat and
870
00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:09.739
taste the quality of it, the joy arises naturally, just
871
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:13.239
like a spring out of the earth. When we're available
872
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:17.110
to receive the pleasure, the goodness, the beauty of I
873
00:52:17.150 --> 00:52:19.190
remember many years ago, my wife and I were living
874
00:52:19.230 --> 00:52:23.579
in San Francisco. I was walking home and I saw
875
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:26.860
these two people saying goodbye on the street. And someone
876
00:52:26.900 --> 00:52:29.420
was saying to the other person, they were saying, thanks
877
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:32.519
so much for the ride. They were beaming and they
878
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:34.619
gave the other person a big hug. And it made
879
00:52:34.659 --> 00:52:37.650
me so happy just to see like, oh, that's so great.
880
00:52:37.690 --> 00:52:40.409
That person gave them a ride and they're so happy, right?
881
00:52:40.489 --> 00:52:44.650
Just being available to the goodness that's actually here in
882
00:52:44.690 --> 00:52:48.460
the world. And the beauty and the pleasure that's available
883
00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:52.769
to us as human beings in really small ways starts
884
00:52:52.829 --> 00:52:56.909
to bring joy. But again, that goes back to mindfulness,
885
00:52:57.349 --> 00:53:00.969
to being present, which goes back to what? To attention.
886
00:53:01.909 --> 00:53:03.860
Where are we placing our attention? Are we able to
887
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:09.199
make choices that put us in the right place in
888
00:53:09.260 --> 00:53:12.659
our own mind to actually be available to what's here
889
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:13.059
for us?
890
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.230
You also say in the book, Don't force it.
891
00:53:16.699 --> 00:53:18.659
With joy or anything?
892
00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:19.079
With joy.
893
00:53:19.460 --> 00:53:22.360
Yeah, you need to be available to it, but you
894
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:26.820
also don't want to like will yourself into it unnaturally
895
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:29.860
and then beat yourself up if it's not coming, et cetera,
896
00:53:29.909 --> 00:53:30.239
et cetera.
897
00:53:30.949 --> 00:53:33.190
Yeah, there's a certain kind of balance and a trust
898
00:53:33.230 --> 00:53:36.329
in the process. And I think there's also something to
899
00:53:36.369 --> 00:53:39.030
be said for, like I was saying before, it's not
900
00:53:39.090 --> 00:53:43.409
just about feeling good. There's a certain quality of joy in,
901
00:53:44.889 --> 00:53:48.429
That's almost like a deeper joy that moves into a
902
00:53:48.469 --> 00:53:53.079
kind of contentment that comes from being able to be
903
00:53:53.179 --> 00:53:56.940
present in our life with everything. There's a wholeness that
904
00:53:56.980 --> 00:54:00.239
comes from opening to all of it, the blessings and
905
00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:03.539
the hardships. There's a joy that comes from not from
906
00:54:03.579 --> 00:54:07.239
getting what we want, not about what we experience, but
907
00:54:07.300 --> 00:54:09.559
how we relate. And this is a very kind of
908
00:54:09.619 --> 00:54:14.519
deep satisfaction from living fully and feeling the whole range
909
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.440
of what it is to be human. So it starts
910
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:19.960
with being available for the pleasure and the beauty and
911
00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:23.260
the goodness, and then it takes us deeper. And the
912
00:54:23.300 --> 00:54:26.179
other piece here, so again, to sort of connect it
913
00:54:26.260 --> 00:54:28.320
to this larger question of how does any of this
914
00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:32.280
apply to the unraveling of so much in our world,
915
00:54:32.909 --> 00:54:37.130
we need joy to work for change. It's hard. It's overwhelming.
916
00:54:37.329 --> 00:54:41.369
It's disappointing. It's depressing at times. It's enraging at times.
917
00:54:41.949 --> 00:54:45.789
you know, we need joy to work for social change.
918
00:54:45.829 --> 00:54:47.989
I think about the civil rights movement and all of
919
00:54:48.030 --> 00:54:52.940
the songs of joy, celebrating the justness and the nobility
920
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.570
of the cause, or that wonderful sort of pop slogan
921
00:54:57.949 --> 00:55:02.230
that is kind of this condensation of Emma Goldman's work,
922
00:55:02.309 --> 00:55:06.349
the anarchist and feminist activist from the 20th century, whose
923
00:55:06.809 --> 00:55:11.260
kind of teachings on sexual liberation and creativity and radical
924
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:14.679
anarchy was summarized in this phrase, if I can't dance,
925
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:16.639
I don't want to be part of your revolution. I
926
00:55:20.860 --> 00:55:21.159
love that.
927
00:55:22.170 --> 00:55:24.929
Okay, so there's another entry on your list that could
928
00:55:24.969 --> 00:55:27.449
be tough for some people to swallow, at least initially,
929
00:55:27.829 --> 00:55:29.909
perhaps myself included, devotion.
930
00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:30.570
Yeah.
931
00:55:31.050 --> 00:55:32.469
What do you mean by devotion?
932
00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:35.500
I love that you asked the question, Dan. It's one
933
00:55:35.539 --> 00:55:38.800
of my kind of favorite, favorite chapters and favorite things
934
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:41.579
because of precisely what you said, that a lot of
935
00:55:41.619 --> 00:55:44.619
people pull away or get turned off by that. And
936
00:55:44.980 --> 00:55:48.559
I was very turned off by anything that seemed devotional
937
00:55:48.579 --> 00:55:51.619
when I first started practicing because it brought up all
938
00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:57.880
of these associations of blind faith and kind of letting
939
00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:02.239
go of my own agency and intelligence and autonomy. So
940
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:08.139
I define devotion as our willingness to give ourselves to
941
00:56:08.199 --> 00:56:12.309
something completely. It's a way of relating to anything with
942
00:56:12.489 --> 00:56:17.889
love and loyalty and trust and generosity. So some of
943
00:56:17.909 --> 00:56:20.690
the synonyms that I offer in the book as a
944
00:56:20.710 --> 00:56:22.409
way of kind of getting a feeling for what I
945
00:56:22.449 --> 00:56:32.400
mean by devotion are sincerity, wholeheartedness, enthusiasm, even reverence. So
946
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:35.599
to be devoted to something means that we give a
947
00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:39.179
lot of our time, our energy, our attention. So we
948
00:56:39.219 --> 00:56:42.219
can be devoted to our family. We could be devoted
949
00:56:42.340 --> 00:56:48.179
to our craft, our work, an instrument. So the devotion
950
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:51.059
isn't defined by what we're devoted to. It's defined by
951
00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:55.570
how much of our heart, to use that word, we
952
00:56:55.590 --> 00:56:57.869
bring to it. How much love, how much attention, how
953
00:56:57.889 --> 00:57:01.630
much of our whole being are we bringing to the
954
00:57:01.750 --> 00:57:05.780
activity or the person or the thing? And what's so
955
00:57:05.820 --> 00:57:09.900
amazing about devotion is, number one, I think it's a very,
956
00:57:09.980 --> 00:57:13.619
very deep need for us as human beings to There's
957
00:57:13.659 --> 00:57:18.199
a certain kind of hunger, a spiritual poverty when we
958
00:57:18.340 --> 00:57:21.039
don't have devotion in our lives, when we don't feel
959
00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:24.639
like we can give ourselves to something wholeheartedly. It sort
960
00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:28.980
of erodes our capacity for fulfillment. And what comes in
961
00:57:29.019 --> 00:57:32.860
to fill that void is all of the wares being
962
00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:38.260
sold to us by the media, by a growth-driven capitalist economy,
963
00:57:38.380 --> 00:57:43.860
by an exploitative worldview. that because there's this hunger inside
964
00:57:43.940 --> 00:57:47.440
to feel whole and to be fulfilled, sometimes we're not
965
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:49.380
even aware of it, so we try to fill it
966
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:55.219
with objects, with accumulation, with status. Part of what we're
967
00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:59.710
really longing for is a sense of deep connection and
968
00:57:59.789 --> 00:58:03.489
sincerity in our way of being in life, our way
969
00:58:03.530 --> 00:58:07.739
of living. So devotion, yeah, it's a deep need. And
970
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:09.980
I think it heals us. I think it brings us
971
00:58:10.059 --> 00:58:11.820
back into a sense of alignment.
972
00:58:12.699 --> 00:58:14.099
What comes to mind when I hear the word in
973
00:58:14.780 --> 00:58:17.780
a Buddhist context is, you know, there is devotional practice
974
00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:19.530
that some of our, you may have done it yourself.
975
00:58:19.590 --> 00:58:21.230
And I know a lot of our mutual friends in
976
00:58:21.250 --> 00:58:23.730
the Dharma world have done where you really are like
977
00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:28.750
prostrating yourself in front of a statue of, you know,
978
00:58:28.769 --> 00:58:31.690
a Buddhist deity or something like that. And I actually
979
00:58:31.710 --> 00:58:33.269
don't know much about this, so I'm not in any
980
00:58:33.289 --> 00:58:36.429
way disparaging it, but it makes me a little nervous.
981
00:58:37.030 --> 00:58:38.949
And so I guess you're not really talking about any
982
00:58:38.989 --> 00:58:39.230
of that.
983
00:58:39.889 --> 00:58:42.389
Well, so thanks for, thanks for raising that and just
984
00:58:42.429 --> 00:58:45.659
being so explicit about it. What I'm doing is I'm
985
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:48.840
starting there because that was my introduction to it too, is,
986
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:51.679
you know, like I'm Jewish and I went to India
987
00:58:51.699 --> 00:58:54.110
and started meditating. And then I hear all these statues
988
00:58:54.170 --> 00:58:56.710
and people bowing. And I was like, whoa, this is not,
989
00:58:56.889 --> 00:58:58.769
you know, this is not cool. Like I am not
990
00:58:58.869 --> 00:59:02.239
bowing to that statue, right? Everything, every cell in my
991
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:04.219
body was like, this is not what a Jew does.
992
00:59:04.420 --> 00:59:07.780
You do not do that, right? And so I started
993
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:09.900
there and then started to learn more about, well, like,
994
00:59:10.099 --> 00:59:12.539
what is that about? Like, why, what does that mean?
995
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:16.179
And what's the purpose? So it can be that if
996
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:21.090
that's the language that speaks to us. But what's important
997
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:26.170
about that is not the statue or the bowing What's
998
00:59:26.230 --> 00:59:29.630
important about it is what does it evoke inside? What
999
00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:33.010
is the purpose of that? The purpose of it is
1000
00:59:33.070 --> 00:59:37.510
a sense of wholeheartedness and a sense of connection to
1001
00:59:37.550 --> 00:59:41.699
something larger than ourselves. So we can meet this need
1002
00:59:41.739 --> 00:59:45.980
for devotion through religious observance or spiritual practice. But of course,
1003
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:50.119
that's not for everyone. That's not the language that our
1004
00:59:50.820 --> 00:59:54.719
heart speaks. I find it difficult to find another word
1005
00:59:54.860 --> 00:59:58.119
for it. If that doesn't speak to us, well, there's
1006
00:59:58.219 --> 01:00:01.099
so many other ways to be devoted, right? We can
1007
01:00:01.139 --> 01:00:04.039
be devoted to our spouse. We can be devoted to music.
1008
01:00:04.699 --> 01:00:07.880
We can be devoted to justice. We can be devoted
1009
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:11.340
to parenting, like washing dishes and changing diapers can be
1010
01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:14.840
devotional acts. I think of that beautiful line from Rumi
1011
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:18.579
from Coleman Bark's translation, there are a thousand ways to
1012
01:00:18.679 --> 01:00:22.250
kneel and kiss the ground. Or one of my favorite
1013
01:00:22.469 --> 01:00:26.530
teachings from the Jewish rabbi, Abraham Joshua Heschel, when he
1014
01:00:26.630 --> 01:00:30.380
marched with Dr. King in 1965, he said, I felt
1015
01:00:30.409 --> 01:00:34.840
like my legs were praying. That's devotion, right? We are
1016
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:38.469
giving ourselves wholeheartedly to something because we value it.
1017
01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:41.639
I'm being repetitive here, but just to sum you up,
1018
01:00:41.780 --> 01:00:44.739
I think while we may have some reaction, some of
1019
01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:48.239
us to the idea of devotion, it really is speaking
1020
01:00:48.260 --> 01:00:50.519
to a universal need of being part of something larger
1021
01:00:50.559 --> 01:00:50.809
than us.
1022
01:00:51.340 --> 01:00:55.539
Being part of something larger than ourselves and this experience
1023
01:00:55.940 --> 01:01:00.070
of wholeheartedness and sincerity. Being able to give ourselves to
1024
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:05.809
something completely which unifies us instead of always being fragmented
1025
01:01:05.889 --> 01:01:10.909
inside or trying to get somewhere else. It's that experience
1026
01:01:11.210 --> 01:01:14.690
of gardening and you get totally lost in it, or
1027
01:01:14.730 --> 01:01:18.010
taking a walk through the park and just enjoying the
1028
01:01:18.070 --> 01:01:21.599
trees and the breeze, and you're devoted to being present
1029
01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:26.139
and appreciating the park. So wholeheartedness or sincerity is the
1030
01:01:26.219 --> 01:01:27.929
other aspect of it.
1031
01:01:28.539 --> 01:01:30.099
But it really does come right back to the core
1032
01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:33.079
thesis of the book, which is a good life, a
1033
01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:39.179
happy life. Happiness, broadly understood, is one where you are
1034
01:01:39.219 --> 01:01:42.519
taking care of yourself and paying attention to the world
1035
01:01:42.619 --> 01:01:45.389
and engaging in things that bring you out of yourself.
1036
01:01:45.489 --> 01:01:48.250
It's that paradox. It's that exchange.
1037
01:01:48.909 --> 01:01:52.070
Yeah, it's integrating both. And again, it's that sense of
1038
01:01:52.130 --> 01:01:56.699
like so much of the limitations of either world that
1039
01:01:56.739 --> 01:01:59.500
we look at, whether it's the world of wellness and
1040
01:01:59.539 --> 01:02:03.019
healing and spirituality or or the world of social change
1041
01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:06.000
is the lack of integration of the two, of being
1042
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:08.219
able to take care of ourselves and give to the world,
1043
01:02:08.260 --> 01:02:09.920
of being able to give to the world and take
1044
01:02:09.940 --> 01:02:10.559
care of ourselves.
1045
01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:13.840
Is there something I should have asked today but failed
1046
01:02:13.860 --> 01:02:14.219
to ask?
1047
01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:17.219
I mean, I guess I touched on it, but it
1048
01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:19.420
could be fun to talk a little bit about how
1049
01:02:19.460 --> 01:02:24.679
being a new parent has shifted my perspective and challenged me,
1050
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:29.219
you know, as a longtime practitioner and teacher. Sure.
1051
01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:33.940
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting because you're 45 or 44
1052
01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:36.059
when you had your first kid and you'd had all
1053
01:02:36.099 --> 01:02:41.110
these years of meditation practice being in these somewhat austere,
1054
01:02:41.590 --> 01:02:45.230
renunciate environments. And all of a sudden you're like surrounded
1055
01:02:45.889 --> 01:02:51.150
by baby products and baby poop. And it ain't as
1056
01:02:51.210 --> 01:02:52.929
dignified as a meditation retreat.
1057
01:02:53.469 --> 01:02:55.880
Not at all, no. And it is its own kind
1058
01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:59.840
of very intensive meditation retreat in a very real way,
1059
01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:04.000
particularly the early months. My wife and I sometimes joke
1060
01:03:04.059 --> 01:03:07.960
about being older parents that we traded energy for wisdom
1061
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:13.840
to the degree that we actually have some wisdom. I mean,
1062
01:03:13.900 --> 01:03:18.119
it's been incredibly humbling. Some of the hardest parts of
1063
01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:22.909
it have been seeing my own limitations, my own impatience
1064
01:03:23.010 --> 01:03:27.489
and anger and reactivity when I'm underslept or stressed out,
1065
01:03:28.250 --> 01:03:32.090
seeing some of the unconscious sexism or kind of conditioning
1066
01:03:32.130 --> 01:03:36.610
of patriarchy in my relationship with my wife. I identify
1067
01:03:36.789 --> 01:03:41.949
as a feminist. I'm all about trying to understand how
1068
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:47.510
the world shapes our experience based on our social position.
1069
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:51.489
And to see just some of the assumptions that creep
1070
01:03:51.570 --> 01:03:55.090
in unconsciously around power, like I know what's right, or
1071
01:03:56.329 --> 01:03:59.889
even who gets to speak first, that's been very eye-opening
1072
01:04:00.170 --> 01:04:04.719
and humbling. But it's also been just this tremendous gift
1073
01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:08.400
and a real teaching on so many levels. All of
1074
01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:12.079
the years I've spent training in nonviolent communication and teaching
1075
01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:18.159
about how it's not selfish to have needs and we
1076
01:04:18.579 --> 01:04:21.820
can't really get along and have meaningful relationships if we're
1077
01:04:21.860 --> 01:04:25.480
not able to acknowledge and own our needs and talk
1078
01:04:25.539 --> 01:04:28.920
about them with one another. And then to have this
1079
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:37.389
utterly helpless, entirely dependent, needy creature appear in our lives
1080
01:04:38.130 --> 01:04:44.639
and to see how, how much generosity and tenderness that
1081
01:04:44.780 --> 01:04:48.469
need called forth in me and my wife and my
1082
01:04:48.510 --> 01:04:54.010
mother-in-law was just so beautiful. And then to also see
1083
01:04:54.090 --> 01:04:57.329
how so much of what I have believed for so
1084
01:04:57.389 --> 01:05:02.699
long about the goodness of our hearts, the goodness of
1085
01:05:02.780 --> 01:05:07.519
being human, to really see how true it is in
1086
01:05:07.579 --> 01:05:12.260
having a baby and seeing just the joy of just
1087
01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:17.079
being here, seeing how other people interact and relate with
1088
01:05:17.139 --> 01:05:20.940
him has been remarkable. So many of the defenses and
1089
01:05:20.980 --> 01:05:24.179
social barriers fall away when I'm out on the street
1090
01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:26.500
or wearing him in a carry or something and people
1091
01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:30.159
see this little happy baby and just their faces just
1092
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:36.130
beaming and seeing the goodness that's there underneath the stress
1093
01:05:36.210 --> 01:05:40.150
and the harriedness and the anxiety and all the difficult
1094
01:05:40.170 --> 01:05:43.949
things that are part of being human also, but that
1095
01:05:44.110 --> 01:05:48.090
cover over that innate brightness and goodness.
1096
01:05:49.210 --> 01:05:49.650
Well said.
1097
01:05:51.309 --> 01:05:53.949
Congratulations again on the new book and obviously on the
1098
01:05:53.989 --> 01:05:57.030
new baby. Before I let you go for real, can
1099
01:05:57.050 --> 01:05:59.690
you just remind us of the name of the book
1100
01:05:59.869 --> 01:06:02.860
and point us to any other resources you've created and
1101
01:06:03.090 --> 01:06:04.489
put into the world that we should know about?
1102
01:06:05.250 --> 01:06:07.909
Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks. So the book is called Your Heart
1103
01:06:07.949 --> 01:06:11.250
Was Made for This, Contemplative Practices to Meet a World
1104
01:06:11.289 --> 01:06:17.900
in Crisis with Courage, Integrity, and Love. And it's available
1105
01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:20.320
anywhere where books are sold. But if you go to
1106
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.980
my website, oranjsofer.com, you can get a free guided meditation
1107
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:28.730
series when you order the book, which is like a
1108
01:06:29.610 --> 01:06:33.420
little bonus companion for the book. And I'll be teaching
1109
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:36.980
online and in different parts of the country for the
1110
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.000
next many months on the book. So feel free to
1111
01:06:40.059 --> 01:06:42.639
join me at an event somewhere and check it out.
1112
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:45.320
Congratulations again. Thank you, Oren.
1113
01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:48.659
Thanks, Dan. Yeah, thanks for having me. And thanks for
1114
01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:49.659
the rich conversation.
1115
01:06:53.650 --> 01:06:55.829
Oren has been a frequent flyer on this show. So
1116
01:06:55.869 --> 01:06:58.070
if you want to take a deeper dive into his work,
1117
01:06:58.210 --> 01:07:01.309
we'll include some links to his previous episodes online. In
1118
01:07:01.369 --> 01:07:03.570
our show notes, you'll get to hear him talk in
1119
01:07:03.670 --> 01:07:06.840
greater depth about his work on the overlap between mindfulness
1120
01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:12.199
and interpersonal hygiene or communication skills, which, as I've said before,
1121
01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:16.710
have been immensely helpful for me. Thanks again to Oren,
1122
01:07:16.829 --> 01:07:20.050
and thank you most of all to everybody who works
1123
01:07:20.090 --> 01:07:22.949
so hard on this show. 10% Happier is produced by
1124
01:07:23.010 --> 01:07:26.369
Lauren Smith, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davey, and Tara Anderson. DJ
1125
01:07:26.409 --> 01:07:30.110
Kashmir is our senior producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor.
1126
01:07:30.170 --> 01:07:33.630
Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production. And
1127
01:07:33.690 --> 01:07:37.840
Kimmy Regular is our executive producer. Alicia Mackey leads our marketing.
1128
01:07:37.909 --> 01:07:42.119
And Tony Magyar is our director of podcasts. Nick Thorburn
1129
01:07:42.199 --> 01:07:43.780
of Islands wrote our themes.