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What does it take to make workshops work?
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And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results?
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My name is Ma'am Hackners, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
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And if you enjoyed last week's conversation with Barbara about high-stakes, multi-stakeholder meetings, then you will really be intrigued by this week's conversation with Ben as we speak about his multi-stakeholder projects in the realm of building environments and how he brings together researchers from different disciplines and different countries to rethink architecture and buildings of the future.
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And we speak about the challenges and the best practices of making these projects succeed.
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So stay tuned.
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And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find more out more about Ben and to subscribe to the podcast if you enjoy it.
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Thank you for listening.
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Ben, welcome to the show.
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Thank you, Miriam.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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Yeah, I'm very curious in which direction this conversation will take us because I have the impression that any conversation we had so far could have been a podcast episode.
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True.
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I remember our coffee in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago.
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It was uh we needed more time.
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And even this uh half-hour warming up chat could have been recorded already.
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So it's time to include the audience.
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And I always start at the beginning with the same question.
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When did you start calling yourself a facilitator?
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And actually do you?
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Right.
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I don't call myself a facilitator, strangely enough, but I've just had some recent experiences in the past weeks where I've been in certain forums or workshops that have been facilitated, specifically around uh climate topics, foresight topics.
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And the more and more I participate in these as an invitee rather than just open to the general public, it reminds me of my background as an architect, where naturally we are leading teams, we are, you know, talking people across different disciplines from the engineering faculty to anyone in the interiors to anyone who comes in, also in some of the work we're doing, biologists, psychologists, all these sort of stuff.
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So I find it interesting that intrinsically in the work of architecture, that facilitation part was there, but without a different name.
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So it's it's about bringing the best out of people, it's about interacting, it's about leadership.
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These are the words I'm putting to it.
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Yeah.
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So I don't really identify with facilitation, but one thing I am getting really appreciative of and wanting more of is good facilitation.
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And that's really a person in the room or multiple people, because it can be a co-facilitation, where there is a a direction, there is a purpose, there is a you're there two hours, one hour a day, whatever it is.
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And I think that's becoming more and more necessary.
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Makes us say that.
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I think time is of the essence.
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I think I'm realizing also in my career and I think a lot of other people, a lot of things take our time.
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There's a lot of things around us that are distracting us.
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And I really feel that as technology is evolving and as this sort of constant connection to black screens or any other technical devices, there is a necessity to really step outside of that and come back to just human interactions, just one-to-one groups.
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I think these are really key because I'm noticing a lot of anxiety, a lot of people that are actually feeling this discomfort.
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And I think the the psychological mind playing that happens in the facilitation events and reading the room is becoming more and more powerful.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, because these projects also become more and more complex, especially in the area where you operate, where architecture is not anymore just the building, but there's all the technology now playing a bigger role.
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And from what you just shared, it sounds as if as an architect, it's almost like orchestrating all these different inputs and then translating a vision into something that when it's built, it cannot be changed that fast anymore.
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So really aligning on what is our shared understanding.
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Do we understand the same things by using the same words?
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Or maybe do we mean the same thing by using different words?
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Yeah.
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I like the metaphor of music.
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I often in my uh you know, group meetings, management meetings, design meetings, whatever they are, um, use the metaphor of the symphony orchestra.
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You know, I like to think that I'm more the conductor, but I have my, you know, my lead pianist, my lead vioncello, I have, you know, those five particular entities in the room that are driving their particular sphere or their particular sphere of influence, but the others then are coordinating behind them.
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So you have this sort of layering effect.
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Yeah.
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Beautiful.
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And I would love to to dig deeper in the work that you do and the role that facilitation plays in there.
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And I think to get the audience on board, maybe you can share a little bit of context of what is it that you do and who is this lead pianist in your orchestra and then and the cello.
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Essentially, just as a shortcut, I've been an architect now for over 20 years.
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I'm originally from South Africa.
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So when I did my studies, it was very much under the Royal Institute of British Architects curriculum because we are still part of the Commonwealth, but in the African context.
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So there was a nice duality happening there in the late 90s, early 2000s.
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But the last four years of my career have been going back to one of my first passions, which is around solving some big problems.
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I love research and innovation.
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I believe there's not enough happening in the built environment in general, not just in architecture.
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So I have found myself over the last three or four years really connecting dots.
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I'm, you know, through my network and through other, you know, people I'm connected to.
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There's a lot of amazing people doing amazing work, but in their own little silo.
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And buildings sort of touch on us all in a way.
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You know, we live and work 80% of our lives in buildings.
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You know, let's be also aware of context with you know, Europe, but a lot of places around the world, this is quite a phenomenon, and it's going to become more so with climate and all the rest, you know, places getting hotter, for example.
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So I joined those dots, and it always starts with those three or four believers that you know believe there is a vision there.
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I mean, I came up with one about building like termites.
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I had a lot of naysayers saying, what are you talking about?
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You know, looking at me like I was actually mad.
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But then I had a good friend of mine, Volkram, who is our engineer who totally understood it.
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And then, you know, he connected to another material scientist who's working on, and then before you know it, you've got those four or five believers in.
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And then because you have those, you can get the other 10, 20, 30, in this case, this particular project, 60 that bought in.
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Because you can't just be the sole individual as much as you drive it and lead it, and you're also that player coach, or that you're also able to play the instruments in the symphony orchestra if we keep to that metaphor.
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You have an understanding, but then you empower the others to drive their own group and their own vision.
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And it's a case of giving everyone an equal say in the room, allowing them to have their space.
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And it's just really envisaging putting them all together.
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And that's where my work has taken me.
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So essentially, I'm bringing projects together, developing these projects with others.
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So it's a very much a co-creation collaboration process of people that are not traditionally in the architecture and engineering industry.
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We have the art biologists, we have uh computer scientists, we have psychologists, we have all sorts.
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And to really then understand where we're going with this, we're building a semi-private, semi-public owned living innovation laboratory here in the southern part of the Swiss Alps to allow thinkers and people who've got wonderful ideas, writing amazing papers in various academic institutes and places around Europe and outside as well, to actually learn by doing, sort of really bringing this sort of polymyth approach, breaking down boundaries and actually connecting people and saying, you know, you come together, you know, material science and engineer, there's a wonderful energy, there's a there's an impact point that we can do some really amazing stuff with.
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And if I think of popcorn, it's like I like to turn up the heat and just start, you know, going for it.
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And then we all sort of tap into that energy and and run with it.
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Yeah.
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And it's it's fascinating, especially yesterday.
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I interviewed Barbara on the podcast, and we spoke about her work in multi-stakeholder high-stakes meetings for climate action, where it's mostly so she has a background in the legal sector, she's a lawyer and speaking about these multi-stakeholder meetings to create policies and this kind of change.
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And now I I see a lot of parallels in what you do where you're building something material, buildings or build environments.
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But the context of these high-stake multi-stakeholder meetings is similar, I assume.
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It is.
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And also the the big thing that drives a little bit of fear into everybody around the built environment is its permanence.
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Yeah.
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You know, we are, you know, we have big sums of money.
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We're probably arguably some of the biggest investments any multinational or any private individual will make is building something for him or herself or for their bigger institution.
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So the built environment is a big cost center.
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And I think what's also coming out now is that we do a lot of our work, or myself personally, by projecting ourselves into the future.
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You know, we are in inherently designing for, you know, now you because you reference climate change, we should be designing for 50 to 80 years.
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You know, previously the mindset has always been 15 to 20.
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So now it's all about adaptability, it's all about reuse, it's all about identifying what that building could become.
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You know, the classic example that everyone on the on in the audience might assimilate to is you know, COVID, you're in an apartment, but they didn't give you actually a terrace or an outdoor space.
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So these things have been taken away for various reasons, real estate and all the rest.
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We won't get into that, but spaces need to be adaptable.
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One, but you're also grounded in the present.
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So we've we've become very aware of what we we we assume is our level of comfort and our needs, but always looking back and understanding what the past, because you have various examples, and there's always that buildup of case studies of what's done right and what's done wrong.
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Um, and that's how we generally facilitate the process of design, coming to the core principles and how what is the building supposed to be used for, who will be using it and such like.
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Then I like to throw another layer on top of it because architecture for me is sort of sitting in between the three, sort of you could think of a triangle, you're sitting in between the sciences, the arts, and the humanities, because it is for people.
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So you constantly are bouncing off these different sides of this triangle to find that sweet spot in the middle where humans come together, people come together in these spaces to share stories and build memories.
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That's my very simple romantic thought of what we do.
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And we're coming to the realization in the Western world that we've lost touch of what these buildings could be and what they were, in a sense, in the sense that they were more attuned to our senses, they were more natural, they were more, you know, when I talk about just simple things like materials that are breathing, a bit more natural, easy to reuse.
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A lot of these things were there.
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It's just big business lobbies, certain things got their way in, and we've gone down a certain road now to now, you know, the second most ubiquitous material in the world is man-made and it's concrete.
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The first is water, which is you know, that's what our planet is made of.
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So I find it interesting that that's where we are in society.
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And I wonder what role power structures play to that.
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Because I mean, as facilitators, full-time facilitators who guide groups through processes, the space in which we operate plays a big role.
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Do we have, and that's something also Barbara mentioned, how can we envision something and be creative in our conversations and the discourse if we're sitting in a room without windows?
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Yeah.
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And I think the way how spaces are shaped and designed is also often a manifestation of power dynamics.
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Can we actually move the furniture?
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Do we have windows?
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Do we have rows or circles?
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So, what role do then power structures and politics, maybe in the broader sense, play in these collaborations that you experience or facilitate?
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First and foremost, I tend to go with, as you alluded to, the space.
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Meeting on neutral ground helps.
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I love going for a walk.
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That does wonders.
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You know, if you can, and there's an opportunity before actually having a meeting.
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I've done it a few times where you know there's going to be some big power players in the room.
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Meet European way.
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Obviously, I live close to Italy, so coffee is a big one.
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You know, that also relaxes a bit.
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And like a glass of metal doesn't also do any, you know, it does some positive reactions.
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But that's key, I think.
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The other one is I've just learned to just just to be honest in the brutal sense, but in a nice way.
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You know, don't beat around the bush.
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You know it's that you know some tensions are there.
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And then the other great one I also use just because I'm dealing on such a personal level with the projects, is playing that psychological role.
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Is some people just don't like to be in the group.
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Take them aside, have a one-to-one and say, look, what's going on here?
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You know, take them out of it, have a five-minute one-to-one, I find it's very handy.
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Because most of what I'm dealing with is actually people's fears.
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Can you share more about that?
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Fears because A, you're taking such a massive investment.
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So there's a there's a risk associated to getting it wrong, you know.
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And then the other one is promoting concepts around energy, water, concepts of around sustainability, climate change, and using natural materials, and then associating a value to it.
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It's quite interesting, the value structures, cultures, having worked within Africa and Europe, how these different cultures relate to what's of value.
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You know, it'd be amazed how valuable a kitchen is to some.
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And to others, you know, it's the lounge and the living area.
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It's the sort of the entrance, it's those private and public spaces.
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So there's a lot of, primarily in my experience, listening.
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And I'm always constantly finding or truly trying to get to the point of what is the assumption and what is the expectation, not just in the meeting, but in the long term.
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And this is where the big advantage we have, and I would stress if you could, in other sort of environments, you interviewed yesterday, I think it was Barbara you mentioned on the legal aspect, using images, using graphics, telling stories, and you know, telling a funny anecdote of something that happened to you, and you know, trying to put a positive light on it also breaks that that tension.
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But we have the wonderful advantage of using imagery, you know, and that's not just focused on words and numbers, can be a very powerful way of just really shifting the whole thing and and actually going to the site or the location where you're building because you're outdoors, that that really breaks it as well, not just being in a room with no windows.
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Yeah.
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And I just realized, as you mentioned it, the imagery that, of course, as architects, this is how you create a shared vision, literally, yeah, by seeing it.
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And it's something that we use or facilitators use through graphic recorders to create a shared vision.
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And it's still not around as a general thing that everyone would rely on.
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Although, yes, it is so important, especially in multi-stakeholder, multidisciplinary, uh multicultural settings.
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Yeah.
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Another one I notice and we use, I actually have a box of Lego.
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Lego architecture, it's all white pieces, and I leave that with clients.
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Or we we we actually have a workshop session is one of the first just to build with it.
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Because there's a lot of people, and I go back to fears, a lot of people, and this is no particular gender because it can come always, cannot read a drawing.
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It's something I've realized in my career going forward.
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If you put a 2G drawing on the table, be it a plan, a section elevation, a lot of people will not turn around to you and say, don't, you know, just run me through this, explain this to me.
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How does this work?
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Especially if it's a new project or it's not a reform or retrofit.
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So overcoming those barriers is key and getting that honesty in.
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It's like I do it by instinct.
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I was at an event where there's facilitation on ethics and foresight.
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Very personal subject matter, very, very highly uh contextualized and culturally significant, depending on which part of the world you're from when it comes to ethics.
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And a lot of concepts were mentioned around foresight, you know, the classic acronyms you have no idea.
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I'm just inherently curious, or I will always go into a thing wanting to learn the most and just stop the conversation.
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So sorry, I really I don't want to be stupid, but what does that mean?
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And trying to stimulate people to actually come out of that is challenging.
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And I can understand where things can go a little awry.
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And I I was just writing down psychological safety, how to how to create the space.
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And acronyms, I think, is a beautiful example.
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That's one I always use when I train on psychological safety.
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When we use acronyms or lingo, it creates this inclusion.
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Oh, we are one team, we understand each other, so it's nice and cozy.
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But as soon as there's one person who doesn't know the acronym or the technical wording, we need such a high level of psychological safety for them to dare to ask.
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So I was wondering when I imagine the setting in which you operate, they're highly skilled experts from different domains.
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And well, when I think back of my time to my time at the university, the highest skilled, the most successful professors were always those who dared to ask the question first, I don't understand, walk me through.
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And still there are also others who are so used to always have all the answers.
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How do you create this level of psychological safety so that you can make the implicit explicit by having everyone asking these questions and asking to clarify and to be curious?
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One way, as you mentioned, is obviously by modeling it.
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So you go first and ask all of these.
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But what do you do?
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How do you do that?
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If I get into a room, I really try and understand who's in the room before getting there.
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I think it's essential to know who's in the room.
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I think just giving people that respect before being in there is fundamental if you know that's your job.
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As an introvert, as a child, I uh up until the age of 12, I was at home.
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And then I from the age of 13 to 18, I was a boarding school.
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They like typical English style, see your parents once or twice a year.
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That really taught me to be an extrovert.
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You know, you you learn to survive.
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You know, if you're an introvert, middle 90s, wasn't really interesting to be.
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You know, you didn't really have many computer screens to hide yourself behind, as much as I did have the PlayStation and the Atari and the Game Boy and all the rest.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:42.079
But being from that and actually learn to be a bit ambidextrous, mixing the introvert and the introvert, the extrovert, sorry, I really make an effort to bring in the people that are quiet.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:55.039
I think it's key that yes, you will always have your first, your people that will first always jump in, lay the scene, lay a few ground rules, but make sure that everyone participates and know that they're there to participate.
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.759
Because then you also prevent on the other side what I call these sort of data.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.640
Harvesters, the ones that just come in to take.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.839
It's a give and take.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.240
So prepare to take risk.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:09.440
It's an open forum.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:11.440
It's a trust base.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:12.240
We're here together.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.160
We're going for a collective vision.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:25.759
And when you mention sort of uh professors, because I work a lot with uh ETH, EPFL, TU Delft, TU Munich, some very, you know, very well-respected institutes.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:46.640
And strangely enough, in my experience, out of the professors I deal with, who are some very you know well qualified, experienced people, they're very gentle and very quiet people that are very co-focused on their work, get into their work and show the same passion, and they just light up like children.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.279
It is also being a bit sort of playful.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:57.119
I I try to, and that's kind of also leads to the the joy of architecting or architecture or design in general.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:09.200
You can get people to draw, you know, like we'll often bring out a big A1 sheet, and we have these sort of big thick crayons, lamy crayons that are like children you, so they all remember their child.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.759
And when you get it a bit more playful, I find that also great.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:23.759
And that's why I love Lego as a as a as a as an opportunity just to even ideate and do things that maybe aren't you know specifically related to architecture.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:32.880
I've been in a few facilitations led by Lego themselves, these wonderful sessions, which I'm sure a few members on the audience have also participated.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.960
So getting to know people is key and then bringing them into the mix.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.119
And uh, what I also hear is getting their bodies activated.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:41.440
Yeah.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.880
So by using the hands, getting tactile.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:54.240
And when you say playful, what I hear is lowering the bar of failure and with so okay, they're crayons.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.720
It's just uh an activity, an exercise.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:59.359
There's no nothing at stake now.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:05.599
And I tend to always focus on if you've asked me to facilitate and do this, you've put your trust in me.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.640
Remain professional, but also remain humble.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:21.519
You know, the egos the one thing I've noticed is that in any project I've ever participated in, you just need one ego in that room and it will neutralize and kill the whole vibe.
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:29.519
That is my biggest touch point is trying to find out that as soon as possible, because I know it will generally fail.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.000
Yeah.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.440
And that's a challenge.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:41.519
And I've been caught a few times, and you literally just have to just just you kind of have to give up and just let it go the way it's gonna go, and just realize that you're not gonna win some.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:54.640
Because failure is an option, and that's what we were touching on previously in the half an hour leading up to this discussion was you know, this level of professionalism and just some people in it that are just going to be toxic.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.319
They come in with other issues that are not relevant, and that's just human nature.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:06.720
Sometimes you're gonna get it, but it's not you as a facilitator, it's it's them for whatever reason.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.000
And I think you learn that with the experience and age.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.480
You're not always gonna get the yes, and you're not always gonna get the positive feedback.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.160
Sometimes they're gonna be negative and you're gonna build a certain resilience to it.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:23.680
But just realize that always be open to learning, but it's never you that's at fault.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:24.960
Yeah.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:26.799
That's an important lesson.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:27.039
Yeah.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.359
Some players in the room that can really, really lead it.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:36.960
And you've got to be strong of character and strong of mind as well to just work with it and work around it.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.319
And to what extent can you be strong in actions?
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:47.599
Because as you mentioned, it it takes one to destroy the safety that you have built in the space.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:54.720
And I wonder then, obviously, it depends on what role they play and how relevant their position is.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:03.599
How do you deal then with it if you spot this toxic person that might put the entire project at risk?
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:11.599
Generally call a timeout immediately and really you know spend a one-to-one with that that person and say, where are we going?
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.720
You know, what's what's on your mind, share it with me, let's let's try and get around this.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:18.079
You know, is there a way?
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.759
And really become a bit like a mediator and negotiator.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:32.160
Because it, you know, all what I do as an architect in general, we we don't paint the picture, we don't sculpt the sculpture.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:39.440
You know, we we all co-created, everyone in the team, and these teams can be, you know, 20, 30 people, if not more.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.279
And then there's that layering belief it.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:50.079
So stressing that point, you know, we're all going for the common goal, but then also reading the signs and saying, you know, okay, your point is valid.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:51.440
Where can we meet in the middle?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:57.119
So you you you're still going forward, and it's a case of also so pushing it.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:10.400
I have the advantage that I run my office with my wife and business partner, and I'm fully aware as a male, you know, middle-aged, it's sometimes best that I step out and she steps in.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.319
So I I have that also at my disposal.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:20.720
So as much as she prefers me to be the forward lead, you know, she's in the room as well.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:28.160
I love it personally because I have that extra pair of eyes and ears so that I can get the feedback because you're not picking up everything.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:34.000
So if you can facilitate and do these things in groups or in pairs, it's obviously advantageous.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:40.480
But sometimes there is a point that a different perspective makes a difference.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.000
And nine times out of ten, that's how we sort of neutralize it.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:45.599
And so far, so good.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.319
Yeah.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.079
Yeah, it's fascinating.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:59.279
And another point I want to come back to you mentioned that the professors you have met, they they're quite humble and love their work and their domain.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.039
They do their research.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:08.960
And then suddenly you're opening the space to a creative, something creative that they're not in control of.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.160
They have to rely on the expertise of others.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.240
How do you bridge that?
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:20.079
So how to enroll people who are usually soul workers or thinkers?
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:22.720
I don't know if I'm ashamed to say it, but I'm gonna be honest.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:23.440
Yes, please.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.359
I I try and make them feel it's their idea.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:29.599
Always works best.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.440
Just, you know, really, we're all going the same direction.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.319
If you need to feel that, be my guest.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:44.799
I I really I don't have that necessity to always be on top, top dog, front of a house, whatever you want to call it.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.720
And I think that's just a great one.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:53.039
You know, just being humble, just really not having a big enough ego that you sort of kill that.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:57.759
Because, but when I say that, also, is that person that important?
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:21.359
Because I do feel that in some cases, the the second or third, or the person that's trying to elevate his or herself and coming up in their career, you know, I think of the Icelandic football team always, you know, or or the Jamaican bobsled team, you know, these concepts of people that are just absolutely driven and are really out of context.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:42.000
And you wouldn't assume it because of teamwork and coming together, because there's no, you know, Galactico or, you know, using the sport team, I maybe should leave that and go maybe to musical, you know, where we don't have this single entity, but when you get that whole team playing from one sheet, one hymn sheet, one score, is a beautiful thing to listen to.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:46.480
And and that's that that that really fine point of trying to find that.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:49.680
And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:53.440
And I would argue that on most cases, I feel I failed.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:55.200
I think I could have done it better.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:04.319
But that's also because I'm a person that is constantly criticizing myself on how to do it better and asking people to give me observations.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:12.559
You know, these people are not necessarily friends, because sometimes friends aren't that honest with you, but I think there's always something to learn.
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:19.039
You know, I made reference to the before the you know we started this interview was last week I was in Dubai.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:26.640
You know, as much as you understand cultures and you read and you learn about etiquette until you're in the room, you make mistakes.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:28.079
Just be honest.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:40.000
You just really say, you know, I apologize, I wasn't supposed, you know, it's wonderful to me or whatever, but be humble about it, just be human and don't try and compound these errors that you've made and continually go down the same directory.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:48.240
I think using humor and you know really dropping yourself below, I think also neutralizes things quite significantly.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:49.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:58.079
And normalizing that in the end we're all human beings, and especially in your case, you're coming together with a really around a shared vision.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:03.599
I have to be totally frank, also, you know, these are the things that I've learned possibly in the last three to four years.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:05.200
You know, I've been doing this for 20.
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:13.359
You know, it's a long, hard struggle, and you realize that, you know, that's the whole point of age, maturity, growing up.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.240
You you go through these evolutions all the time.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:23.440
So it what I'm telling you now literally has already started happening in the last two or three years before that.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:27.759
There's a lot of train wrecks and a lot of mess mess ups and a lot of failure.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.240
Yeah.
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:34.079
But being allowed to learn from my own failure has been allowing me to put me in this position now.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.279
And also being more generous with the failures of others.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:38.000
Yes.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:45.119
And I think that's what we often refer to as um the inner work, the inner growth journey.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:51.039
That at the end, yes, it's great if you're a content matter subject matter expert and you know all the content.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:57.759
If then you're unable to apply it collaboratively with others, it will fall flat.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:05.680
And yeah, and I was just wondering because for me, similarly, I I grew up in the higher education sector, right?
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:13.039
Uh universities where it's not necessarily the culture of yes-ending each other and building on each other's ideas.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:13.759
It's very rough.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.519
The feedback we get is very direct, very cool sometimes.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.279
It's very competitive.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:36.799
And then suddenly bringing people into the space who might not have had the chance to grow this self-awareness and empathy and even the language of how do we respond to an idea that we don't agree with.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.319
And I often refer to an experience.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:46.319
I was in a summer square as a PhD student, and we had this professor from Harvard, Leipzig, was his name.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.920
It was of course, everyone wanted to impress him.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:33:01.200
And I really remember this one situation where I said something in class and he looked at me and said, Yes, Miriam, and have you thought off and would say the exact opposite.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:10.799
And this was the moment where I realized how you can, through language, create the space where it feels safe to say something stupid or to fail.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.160
Because he could have also said, no, Miriam, that's wrong.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:14.480
Yeah.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:24.240
And then I would have been in overthinking mode, bashing myself and didn't even have, wouldn't have had the capacity to listen to the answer.
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.440
That's where you have to put yourself in other people's shoes.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:40.880
I try and roll reverse, you know, and go through certain scenarios that have played out for me and say, you know, we we all have moments where outside of our professional life, our personal life sometimes influences.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:46.000
And you're a bit short or you're a bit, you know, a bit too direct, or you overgo it a bit.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:53.680
And then you have to also be where it's saying, you know, okay, yeah, put on the other, if I was in that person's shoes, how would have I reacted?
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:55.599
You know, I'd probably take it the same way.
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.240
And I think that's also a good analogy.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.440
Shifting the dialogue always to look at from the other perspective.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:01.920
Yeah.
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:08.000
Um, and then the other one is also participating in great facilitation events.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.599
Or being in a environment learning from other facilitators.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.639
You know, I recently had an experience last three, Thursday.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:23.039
Um, Aaron, his name was, I forget his surname, worked for the Singaporean ministry, fantastic facilitator, headed up there, Futures in Foresight.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.360
And what a personality.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:31.679
Just so energized, vivacious, had it had a structure, you know, a really great structure.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:54.559
It was on you know, foresight mechanism, how to facilitate a good foresight meeting, going back to the purpose of this interview, and just one or two visuals, but just really allowed the room to go with it, dropped in a lot of personal stories that were humorous and funny, but then also always brought it back, but wasn't so fixed in his structure that he lost the moments in the room.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.320
And he really got everybody involved.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:06.880
And we had some power people from the UN, from various other high-level agencies, and there were about 20 of us, to actually watch it happen is wonderful.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:26.320
And then to have those facilitators, you know, like for me, yourself or a Chris Lukkaman or a Bruno Josani, that have done this as a career that you can then sort of phone up and ask, or you know, they were in the room, or they are your semi-mentor because you're preparing for a particular, you know, a bit more sort of public sort of facilitation, be an interview or whatever.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:33.519
Also, you know, we're we'll we're all we all have similar hang-ups and preoccupations, you know.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.880
Share knowledge.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:41.360
It's not a competition, it's actually to provide a better experience for the others that are participating.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.760
And this is where that collaboration and cooperation is key.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:52.559
Yeah, the moment we can come together as as equals and really have this humility to actually learn.
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.719
And the moment we are open to actually look at others to learn from them.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:06.400
Because I I think it's you can only appreciate the mastery of a skill if you know just a little bit, at least a little bit about it.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:09.840
Because then you see, oh, how did they do that?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.920
How did they shift the conversation?
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.519
How did they switch from conflict to curiosity?
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:17.360
Otherwise, you wouldn't notice that.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.000
No.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:18.960
Correct.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:28.159
And that's where being open and uh yeah, a little less I I would even throw in the word masculine, you know, masculine men generally, we're very competitive.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:34.000
We we like to be the top doc and and realizing that that doesn't necessarily get you far.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:37:01.039
It's also good just to sort of, you know, step it down, be confident, have that that confidence and that and that courage to to to to present your point, but also realize when the moment is right to overplay it or not, and to sort of try the other perspective and yeah, a moment of silence in the room is also uh a powerful tool that I had to learn, and it took me a long time to learn, just to take that time out, let people digest it.
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:08.079
Yeah, let people even take a minute silence just to really process what's been asked of them or what's required of them.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Yeah.
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.480
Also respecting the slow thinkers in the room.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:14.079
Slow and deep.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:14.719
Yeah.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:26.480
And the silence also reminds me of a story you shared before we hit the record button at the beginning of a conference, multinational conference with uh starting with uh Marina Abramovich uh eye gazing.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.119
Yeah.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:36.960
And how this I think what I what is so fascinating about it, because it puts the attention to oh, we're dealing with humans.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:49.440
If you it makes you observe, it makes you actually work or connect with someone with other, with your your other senses, and I and I say that very sort of openly.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:38:05.440
You know, a lot of our we're very visual, everything's very visual, and we're driven by a lot of sound, and these are I don't think it's there's a reason why we were able to create audiovisual experiences, and that's why it's predominant in our society.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:18.000
You know, but we also lose sight of the fact that you know neuroscience is quite clearly defined and and and shown that 40% of what we actually visually take in is what we remember.
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:24.159
The other 60% is what we actually create in our mind through biases, experience, and all things.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.239
So the majority is actually based on our past and what we've actually assimilated or collected.
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:39.599
But when you're forced to sit in a situation where you don't know the other person on the other side of the table, and you're asked to just stare into that person's eyes for a minute.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:50.320
And this was actually done at the House of Beautiful Business at their event in Dubai, which is a wonderful organization, looking at other ways of doing these interactions.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:39:01.519
It's incredible to watch how the body responds because you cut out the voice, you cut out the ear, so to speak, and you're just literally communicating through eye contact.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:34.480
And how you sort of the body, you we both just naturally started to, but we took time, you know, like 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, and actually seeing people, and this is also linked to what we said about the greetings and in professional business when you actually talk with someone, look into their eyes, but also being mindful that in certain cultures, this certain age, yeah, you you you don't do that, you know, being understanding of those ethics, and this is how we become more multicultural societies, this is going to become a bigger thing.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:35.679
It's always been there.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:46.719
I just think we're becoming more aware of it because not one way of doing things is opposing or sort of being repotented on the other, you know, dominating.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.840
And I think we're becoming a bit more mindful of this.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:56.239
Um and then also calling or being aware of the biases, as you say, that show up.
00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:05.920
And then I think having the opportunity to call that out without judgment, but that it's just a normal way of our brains functioning.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:14.400
I um I remember I was recently in a workshop by Mahit Jacobs, and she did that on Zoom.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:21.119
So we were paired with one other person just staring at the screen with the eyes, it's a bit difficult.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:29.360
And then um after a minute pointing out what we believe we have in common without without speaking with the other person.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.559
And that was a beautiful activity on many levels.
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:39.840
One because we yes, we look at the person and we become aware of all of our projections.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:41:07.760
And one participant who was joining from Israel, she was extremely touched because she said that she grew up, and especially over the past year or longer, to look for differences and constantly highlighting differences and suddenly being invited to see similarities and to spot on that without being distracted by language or words.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:08.719
Interesting.
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:10.320
Very beautiful.
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:24.239
It is as I we had this uh I refer to this foresight workshop we had on ethics and foresight, and around the table we had Kazakhstan, South Africa, Swiss, Hong Kong, France, and America.
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:24.960
Ooh.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.000
Very mixed, very nice.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:38.639
But actually, facilitation was allowed the group to go very strong personalities in the seven, because we had two facilitators and then the five of us, I was the only male.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.480
So it was it was really a pleasant, and it was three hours.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:50.800
This wasn't just half an hour, and we didn't really know each other, so that's a long time together, and we didn't actually have many breaks, it just went.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.320
That's the dynamic of it.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:42:04.960
But how different cultural perspectives played such a huge influence on the dialogue and and being able to listen to the differences, but also the similarities, going back to your point.
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:12.559
And this is also something about capturing this understanding of differences and similarities.
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:12.960
Yeah.
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:30.159
Because sometimes you you want, you know, I look for people that are not of my, let's put it this way, not of my profession, because I look to be challenged, because having too many of the same people in the same room can also be a little bit, you know, one-dimensional.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.960
It's also trying to find that balance, and I think that's the key.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:43.760
You know, I I look at things in holistic, you know, what's it, what's it in a holistic sense, and I think more spherical than I do in circularities or linear.
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:48.079
Yeah, that there's all different sides to the to that sphere.
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:58.800
You know, the classic one is the different side of the world is, you know, the classic view of the world we see is is land, the other side is water, but that's also a side, it's also a perspective, the same with the moon.
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:03.039
You see, all these things you need to go from the other side.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:11.440
And what I often do, you know, we we hit uh a bit of a design block as a design process in designing drawings or plans.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:18.079
I tell some of my team, just literally turn it upside down, look at it from another way, and also don't keep beating it.
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:21.599
You know, if you can't and you've got a block, move on to something else.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:30.719
You know, even go for a walk, go for a run, do something, come back to it, allow yourself that time, because then different stimulants of things that happen.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:34.320
Because I think a lot of what we do also is too fixed in time.
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.519
Need those times away in order to do it again.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.400
How you actually make that work and how you actually get remunerated, I I I struggle.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:48.400
It's a difficult one, but that time away, as much as the time together, is just as powerful.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:49.119
Yeah.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Yes, it reminds me of um Cal Newport's book, Slow Productivity, where he refers to the fact that there's very little academic research on.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:08.800
on productivity in the modern knowledge age, because there's no way to actually measure it.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:10.079
Okay, interesting.
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:19.199
Because in the industrial age, it's very clear, okay, it's the time you use for the output you get, the time and money, so the resource you use for the output you get.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:29.119
In the knowledge age, sometimes you get an idea in a split of a second because you studied for 20 years, sometimes because you didn't study, sometimes it takes longer.
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.760
So what is the component of time as opposed to output?
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:36.559
And what does productivity actually mean nowadays?
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.039
That crossed my mind as you spoke about remuneration.
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:44.960
Yeah.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.039
Beautiful book on many, many levels, um, slow productivity.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:49.599
Okay.
00:44:50.079 --> 00:45:10.800
And um what I hear what is the opportunity of in what you do is um that you can actually curate the groups and find the different stakeholders that would complement each other, um, that you can work with but also challenge the different perspectives in a certain way.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:26.800
And I would be curious to hear what your curation process is, because we also spoke about the toxic people and to what extent so how can you ensure that you're open enough to different perspectives without falling over the edge?
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:32.960
And then from there I would love to build the bridge to the practical implementations for what happens after the discussion.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:33.599
Okay.
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:49.519
First it like anything most of these interactions start randomly because I'm at an event or a certain person, you know, how like how we got introduced you know there's some storyline that happens before that or some person that or activity that makes it happen.
00:45:49.679 --> 00:46:01.599
And I literally go on gut feeling I I see something in a person, I see an energy, I have a discussion briefly and then I try and take it out of that context as a one-to-one and deviant person.
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:17.199
I know for me within three conversations generally maximum five I kind of have learned about you as a person enough to realize you know the three things I really look for are what are what is your curiosity?
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:19.920
You know, what is your creativity?
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:21.840
Because I believe everyone's creative.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.920
I don't necessarily be because if you don't draw you don't sketch you're not creative.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:27.280
I think there's creativity everywhere.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.559
It's just finding it.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.960
And then I meant your competence, you know, what is your real driver?
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:33.760
What is your passion?
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:34.880
What are you what are you good at?
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.039
What what do you really want to do?
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:46.960
And and these things can simmer I mean I've had some projects that are simmer for three or four years before we've actually found the means and we've actually activated some have happened in in days.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:49.519
And it's just being open to that.
00:46:49.840 --> 00:47:29.920
Before then bringing the four or five or three in the case people to the group that are like the core driving group of generally we'll we build consortiums around uh research grants and and sort of foundation funding always try and keep to you know an odd number even numbers can be challenging it's nice to have a bit of an odd so that you drive it I've had one incident where it's really fallen through but simply because I've spent the time and effort to get to know the individual personalities and really listening to what their interests are and where they want to go a lot of people I am dealing with in research.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:42.239
So academics are quite clear in their their vision it's then highlighting to them oh by the way you know if you do that in this context with this other person I think and then they start seeing it.
00:47:42.480 --> 00:48:06.079
And then once we have that in play then we have about two or three sort of um workshop sessions which I generally lead and the way I started is I do a two to three pager of of really looking at you know what's the whole contribution what's the problem what we're trying to solve references anything that then people can drop into sometimes it depends on the platform.
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:10.880
People are more you know Excel you know spreadsheet or or Word doc.
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:22.719
Sometimes it's it's a mirror board um but it comes around discussion and I think the biggest thing I've learned is this it's all about the people you've got to get that mix right.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:32.960
If you get that wrong you know if if you've got one particular entity as I say going back to the ego when we said sort of started this conversation about 40 45 minutes ago that really blows it.
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:53.119
So I try and find that out first and then you know we've put seven seven consortiums together so far we've been successful with five wow I think that's just because of the power of the people but also being mindful of the fact that you have to play the politics you you have to have the right players.
00:48:54.079 --> 00:49:46.960
And I realize that because you know actually where I'm calling you from or where I'm based is in the southern part of Switzerland we're on the sort of the border with Italy and I live in rural Switzerland so I live at the base of the Swiss Alps and having lived here in a very small community for the last 15 years you realize this is a microcosm of society in general you only need those four or five families or names that the rest follow in a way rightly or wrongly that there are those influences let's use this sort of current terminology good ones that if you have them in a group or part of the discussion and you empower them obviously they've got to fit obviously they've got to be part of it they can be very very good in that binding of everyone together you they they become like that that mycelium really join everyone together and they see this vision.
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:52.719
And then just really allowing people the opportunity to create it themselves.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:50:09.760
I really focus on creating just a simple structure that then allows you to co-create into it not come and say you know this is my way of doing it and not having that colonial mentality of just you know lamb basing everyone with this this is it you got to buy in kind of thing.
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:22.480
But I don't believe in if you design it they will come I think you need to really build it together as a reason why spaces and and places in the world have succeeded because they weren't planned.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:28.239
They were very organic and not that predefined you know very sort of grid.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:34.880
And I follow that as a principle and then once people sort of get buy-in is to really allow them to fly with it.
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:50.239
Because I also have this other sort of thing I'd rather know now if you know it's going to go wrong by empowering you and letting you go with it with the risks associated around trust and everything else because trust is a huge one.
00:50:51.199 --> 00:51:01.760
I always remember the saying I forget by who you know the rate of change how does it go the rate of change happens at trust you know how much you trust defines how much you change something.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:06.079
That is also what I found essential to know upfront.
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.440
Just let it run let it be a bit organic and then get to a point.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:14.000
Obviously I'm not doing it traditional facilitation where you're in for a day of info.
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:17.920
So to actually put that into that context I would find difficult.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:34.320
And I would love to know more about how you would do that Miriam because I have that luxury of time which I touched on earlier making that time allow for things to distill and so to settle so you have activation and you have this distillation process.
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:42.559
And that's how I play because I'm the main driver in it and knowing that I can determine that time I'm not I'm not rushing.
00:51:42.719 --> 00:52:04.559
So I try and play with that as best I can thank you for walking us through I think it's um we throw some coffee and some Lego and a few games that also that also spaces the start with relationships first and connection over content reminds me of the two founders of Netflix.
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:09.119
They started the company by they decided that they wanted to do something together.
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:18.400
So they would share a drive every morning commute to work together and every day one of them would come up with a potential business idea and they would challenge it.
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:18.960
Okay.
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:26.960
And it took them maybe a year of everyday commuting until they had the idea and they started building prototyping and building it.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:41.599
And then what I hear is the first having this basis, this small circle of trusted peers and then growing it slowly and one the odd numbers and then starting with hard facts.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:48.480
So making explicit here's the two pages with everything that we know can we agree on that and can we start from that?
00:52:48.880 --> 00:53:02.880
And I think where it goes wrong in many organizations because when I think of your process and how you describe it, why would it be different for any meeting a manager hosts?
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:15.920
And I think the lack of preparation, the lack of time, the lack of relationship building the lack of ensuring that we are based on common ground and shared knowledge.
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:22.480
Okay, these are the facts and then the lack of courage not to invite certain people.
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:36.239
I think that very often it grows too big too fast, especially online because we have so many chairs and then the odds are higher of course that this one rotten tomato this one toxic person will be there by a lack of curation.
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:56.079
Yeah start small you know don't be too ambitious sometimes that's hard to to to quantify but I think you lose a lot if you have like more than 20 people in in a room I think if you if you're dealing with a hundred you know wow you are seriously still and you need multiple points then but then you need to really be clear on how on how that works.
00:53:56.239 --> 00:54:04.159
I've never been in that experience I've seen it done you know I would argue that the biggest meeting I've ever had to facilitate is between 15 and 20.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.000
So that's definitely my comfort zone.
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:08.239
And I I I I enjoy that.
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:27.760
And then it really depends on the on the purpose of the meeting and what are you doing with the outcomes I interviewed the co-founder of the liberating structures Andrei Lipjanovitz who was specialized on creating very simple structures to facilitate very large meetings and to boil them down to decision making.
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:58.239
But then it depends on the context and is there one decision or can you actually continue to collaborate with 100 or do you just need their buy-in and their first ideas which then leads me to to another point in workshop facilitation we often speak about the day after so obviously for you it's a longer process but at some point you have assembled all the ideas, you have all the experts and then there's a practical implementation.
00:54:58.400 --> 00:54:58.639
Yeah.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:56:19.199
So what are the learnings in that so how do you get from the idea on paper to okay let's start and keep the momentum first one is uh empowering individuals but giving them a clear deadline and say right in three four months time we have to have this in play it might be a proposal it might be a handover of a set of drawings at a certain scale whatever but a having that deadline I always end every meeting okay next meeting is and next hand in is just as architects we are deadline driven we you know it's it's the nature of the game and the business but also maintaining momentum means having regular catch you know sort of catch-ups I think it's fundamental there's some people that are just straight by and just go and start working it away chipping away also being of the realization that some people cram it at the end you know it it it's there's all these different gradients of different personalities in these groups it's it's trying to sort of manage them but I really kick into very much a project management mentality then and that's where I shift my personality and become very you know regimented and say right we're gonna have this we're gonna meet this we're gonna meet every two weeks this is what your deadline this is what your hand in there's the shared doc.
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:26.639
You know if no one's performing you're sort of pulling them aside and saying you know why what's up you know can we discuss?
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:32.639
And then what happens is I've generally found that I then get to a point where I step back.
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:48.239
Because by that stage in a successful proposal there is generally one person that really just brings everyone together and he or she is just much more skilled in it than I am a lot more respected in the circle that I'm in.
00:56:48.320 --> 00:57:04.639
And it's generally related to a professional level or most cases on an academic side you know getting your uh professional investigator, your PI involved it's generally a person that is sitting at a very high level his or her chair, his or her sort of laboratory.
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:09.760
And then they really kick into the responsibility of it because it's their name.
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:25.199
So it's also knowing when to step back sometimes gets to the point that you're facilitating something that you are not actually going to have your name on it or it's not going to be your face that's going to be the conclusion of this.
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:31.760
So it it it's also allowing them to sort of get to that point where then they take you step back and you're more of a supporting role.
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:33.679
Yeah how can I help?
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:43.519
How can I you know we've got this far it's it's going through that journey with you the whole time and then saying right okay we know we've got to go we know how this is going to be successful.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:58:06.000
We're all God buy-in now that's pretty clear you know and also sometimes it's just the star alignment doesn't work I've had some situations we're ready for the proposal ready for the handing but sometimes you need to pull the plug and say we revisit this in a month or two because a personal situation happens or something happens in one of the group because XYZ just realizing things are changeable.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:11.440
You know sometimes programs are programs but they end up changing.
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:30.239
I except trying to keep us close to it you know but I've learned the hard way being someone that's very programmed myself and very structured and very you know driven and determined that sometimes you just need to put it off because you risk then just making the whole thing explode because you put too much pressure on you.
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:41.119
And that's such an important observation the you stepping back as a leaving more space for the for others to step in as a project manager.
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:54.719
And I can see how this is difficult coming back to the inner game to the ego to the humility because it is your baby and I can imagine that there is then this polarity between trust and control.
00:58:54.880 --> 00:59:19.280
Yes I want to trust them but can I really and can I let go of control and what's what's fair I think also it's based on contribution and I think this is a very open discussion most of the time it does come down to in project management terms you know what's the quality you're producing you know what's the time you're putting in and what is the cost or remuneration that you're expecting.
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:23.119
Yeah and what are the opportunity costs you can't avoid them.
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:33.840
You have to approach that and I approach them as soon as we know we're a concrete team and this is what we're going for and that's the objective you put that on the table immediately you don't avoid it.
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:37.840
Because you need to know that everyone's bought in on multiple levels.
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:46.559
It's not just an interest and then it shifts and then you know I'm the most important I'm this is me this is what I want because that will break everything and then you've literally wasted your time.
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:50.960
Yeah and we cannot pay mortgage from just a shared vision.
00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:58.719
Yeah and this is where culture comes in and I think also personalities come in some cultures are much more direct.
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:06.320
Just realizing that there's a moment that you're gonna have to say these things you're gonna have to say some hard things do it nicely.
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:17.519
There's always a way of how to say these things that I find it beneficial to say it earlier rather than later but the timing is essential because you can blow it.
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:29.199
Because you don't want to be too far in so that it's almost a point of no return where either you break it or and not too early because then suddenly it's all about the money.
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:29.920
Yep.
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:58.400
Because also we're involved in projects that also involves IP of course so when that drops on the table the beauty is if you're working for certain publicly funded grants it's not a situation but we're having more now more interest on some sort of smaller topics that are key around material science, nanotechnology, biotech, these kind of things IP becomes a huge topic huge and you need to get it out immediately.
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:11.840
Yeah and there's no bigger room for let's trust each other so you've got to run with it but at the same time you've got to sort of be wary that this will rear its head and uh so far so good.
01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:17.360
I've had only one really bad experience that you just literally had to run away from and that's it.
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:18.800
You know it happens.
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:22.320
But it's best to sort of cut your losses if that's the case immediately.
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:24.159
Yeah and just forget about it moving on.
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:26.159
Yeah the sunk also sunk anyway.
01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:42.639
Yeah exactly yeah exactly and there's a lot of people out there in the world as well so it's you know this it's it's all about the people connect with the right people and I generally find that that generally is a good start and and follow your gut feeling you know that's sort of this is where age comes in.
01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:58.320
I wish I if I was younger you know I I would definitely listen to my heart rather you know too much to my head but then also knowing when to be more intelligent about it and less emotional but then flip it.
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:08.960
You know those are those the key drivers and on all levels and there is those different levels of intelligence that you you have the ability to tap into but you've got to trust it and feel it.
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:13.440
Yeah yeah and maybe that's the biggest challenge to know when to flip it.
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:15.199
Correct.
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:36.800
And this is why I try and I most nine times out of ten I have this double act because it's a husband and wife team it's a partnership we've been running for 20 years it's our investment it's our so having that for me is invaluable because you have this trust immediately between the two of you and then you have a different perspective.
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:48.960
And then again you need to by yourself that's that's that's that's a lot that's a lot depending on the size of the group and everything but some some manage it much better than others and others struggle.
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:50.239
It's just the way of life.
01:02:51.119 --> 01:03:02.559
And then again it needs another form of very good clear communication if there's also the personal relationship and the and the marriage being part of it.
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:20.079
That is a it's a lot of communication it's a lot of you know trust it's uh it's time together you know it's time when you're working with that person I hear of so many situations not just in facilitation or management but in companies where they fall down generally because of trust.
01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:29.039
Yeah that's what uh one says uh people join organizations because of the brand and the name and they leave because of the culture and the manager.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:31.679
What remains your facilitation challenge?
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:41.679
I would like to I am very much a believer in the world words of Nelson Mandela um and you know if you speak to someone in their language you speak to their heart.
01:03:42.719 --> 01:04:04.000
And I think that's living in Central Europe, being more involved in now projects that are also sort of expanding into Africa and you know more eastwards being able to actually not just be fluent in that language but to have some phrases and have some understandings of people's cultural language references is very, very useful.
01:04:04.480 --> 01:05:12.559
And living in Switzerland understanding you know speaking Italian and Spanish myself but also having that ability to understand the nuances of language bit German bit French whatever in where I'm immediately in yourself you know in in in the Benelux region it's very powerful that that really brings it into another level because you really do disconnect from the head and really go for the heart and that I find would be a wonderful tool to have more at my disposal um that's why I I repeat uh my wife is a person that speaks five languages so that whenever she has that at her disposal I am very thankful but also very jealous at the same time because I wish I could have that uh sort of like uh polyglot ability to learn because I find languages so difficult it's uh it's just not my my way I'm I'm more visual unless you know with words so that would be something I would love to have at my disposal because I think it's also a wonderful tool at very person.
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:23.199
Has it ever become a challenge then for you not to be able to this kind of mismatch not being able to communicate in other people's native language?
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:38.239
I've only experienced it once or twice ever uh hand no yeah handful of times where I've made a comment once or twice where I've been in an environment in Switzerland where the conversation has been led in Swiss German.
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:47.360
I'm just using as a context I'm not being specific in any way whatsoever but you do have certain dialects that are prevalent.
01:05:47.920 --> 01:06:02.960
When you have people in the room that are not from a particular region, be it a village or a a valley, because that's generally where it is just be mindful that Certain languages are languages for some and others aren't.
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:14.079
And I've had to turn around and say, you know, if it's in Hochdeutsch, and because it's in the context of my or our industry and our discussion, architecture, engineering, I can understand and I respect your language.
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.840
I do just be mindful that I will be responding in English.
01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:31.119
And the same in your region when I was there.
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.440
You know, there's sort of this mix of language.
01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:36.159
Certain cultures have these multra linguistics.
01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:40.079
And then let's not even get into you know India and Africa.
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:44.320
Yeah, how they mine for me that's incredible.
01:06:44.559 --> 01:06:48.320
But it's very much within the DNA of those regions.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:50.880
And it's very much of them.
01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:53.440
So these are things I'm mindful.
01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:55.280
So I've only ever had to do it once or twice.
01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:56.320
You know, just please.
01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:58.079
Otherwise, there's no point in me being here.
01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:00.559
And I'd rather not interrupt and just step out of the room.
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:02.320
Yeah, which makes sense.
01:07:03.519 --> 01:07:05.760
We've spoken for more than an hour.
01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:06.880
Is it that long?
01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:07.280
Yes.
01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:08.000
Wow.
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:09.760
I wasn't aware of that.
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.800
And we need to add the half an hour before.
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:13.840
It's always a pleasure.
01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:15.679
I really enjoyed it.
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:16.320
Yes.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:20.639
Is there anything that you would have wanted to share that we didn't touch upon?
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:21.280
Oh.
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:27.599
Um maybe if it's it's a book, because you uh you mentioned a book that I'm definitely get the title from.
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:40.960
One book that stood out to me, I was recommended it two years ago on the the power of storytelling and the powering of you know literally creating these Phil Rouges, these these connections between people.
01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:44.880
It's called Sand Talk, and it's by Tyson Yom Kapoor.
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:45.280
Yes.
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:47.280
And I've written a writer.
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:47.840
Yeah.
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:49.280
Wonderful, wonderful.
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:59.519
You know, learning from a you know, uh, you know, a tech basis and a scientific, but then connecting it back to his you know, native Aboriginal Australia.
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:04.960
And I really like that, that gradients of connecting it all together.
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:12.639
And I think there's a there's a necessity, and he uses the term uh it's called yarning, where you sort of weave things together.
01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:26.159
And I think this is something that I find myself trying to bring in because I think if you tell personal stories in a creative way, you really tend to get people sort of to to buy in.
01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:31.199
You sort of, it's a different way of looking at professionalism, you know, talking what we talked previously.
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:41.520
I think it it we need to also realize that it's it it is about people, and that's how I would thank you for reminding me because he agreed to come on the podcast.
01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:43.520
I'll listen to that one.
01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:55.359
I have to to refresh this uh slide in my highly recommend because that would be and Centalk is uh a beautiful book for facilitators to learn from the Aboriginal culture.
01:08:57.840 --> 01:08:58.239
Thank you.
01:08:58.399 --> 01:09:04.319
I always leave conversations with you with at least two or three book recommendations that are piling up in my living room.
01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:06.319
So I need to take a sabbatical now.
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.760
But as I say always, Miriam, always always to be continued.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:13.039
And I I look forward to our next conversation, wherever that may be.
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:19.600
And hopefully, with our work in uh in your region, we'll be there sooner rather than later, and vice versa.
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:24.399
You're always welcome to join us and visit us down here in Switzerland as well.
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:25.199
Thank you.
01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:26.000
Pleasure.
01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:26.800
Thank you.
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:27.920
Thank you.
01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:33.039
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:48.640
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for, and I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:59.439
I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve.
01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:15.119
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workshops.orgslash support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free.
01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:16.640
Thank you so much.
01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:20.239
I hope to be in your ears next week.
00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:04.480
What does it take to make workshops work?
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:08.480
And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results?
00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:15.599
My name is Ma'am Hackners, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:46.719
And if you enjoyed last week's conversation with Barbara about high-stakes, multi-stakeholder meetings, then you will really be intrigued by this week's conversation with Ben as we speak about his multi-stakeholder projects in the realm of building environments and how he brings together researchers from different disciplines and different countries to rethink architecture and buildings of the future.
00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:54.880
And we speak about the challenges and the best practices of making these projects succeed.
00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:56.079
So stay tuned.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:04.959
And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find more out more about Ben and to subscribe to the podcast if you enjoy it.
00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:06.400
Thank you for listening.
00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.920
Ben, welcome to the show.
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:11.280
Thank you, Miriam.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:12.480
It's a pleasure to be here.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:21.519
Yeah, I'm very curious in which direction this conversation will take us because I have the impression that any conversation we had so far could have been a podcast episode.
00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:22.400
True.
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.599
I remember our coffee in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago.
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.000
It was uh we needed more time.
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.920
And even this uh half-hour warming up chat could have been recorded already.
00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.719
So it's time to include the audience.
00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.400
And I always start at the beginning with the same question.
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:43.680
When did you start calling yourself a facilitator?
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.280
And actually do you?
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:46.079
Right.
00:01:46.239 --> 00:02:04.959
I don't call myself a facilitator, strangely enough, but I've just had some recent experiences in the past weeks where I've been in certain forums or workshops that have been facilitated, specifically around uh climate topics, foresight topics.
00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:33.039
And the more and more I participate in these as an invitee rather than just open to the general public, it reminds me of my background as an architect, where naturally we are leading teams, we are, you know, talking people across different disciplines from the engineering faculty to anyone in the interiors to anyone who comes in, also in some of the work we're doing, biologists, psychologists, all these sort of stuff.
00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:41.360
So I find it interesting that intrinsically in the work of architecture, that facilitation part was there, but without a different name.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:48.479
So it's it's about bringing the best out of people, it's about interacting, it's about leadership.
00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:50.319
These are the words I'm putting to it.
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:50.800
Yeah.
00:02:50.960 --> 00:03:01.120
So I don't really identify with facilitation, but one thing I am getting really appreciative of and wanting more of is good facilitation.
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:16.319
And that's really a person in the room or multiple people, because it can be a co-facilitation, where there is a a direction, there is a purpose, there is a you're there two hours, one hour a day, whatever it is.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.759
And I think that's becoming more and more necessary.
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:21.360
Makes us say that.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:23.919
I think time is of the essence.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:30.080
I think I'm realizing also in my career and I think a lot of other people, a lot of things take our time.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.599
There's a lot of things around us that are distracting us.
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:52.960
And I really feel that as technology is evolving and as this sort of constant connection to black screens or any other technical devices, there is a necessity to really step outside of that and come back to just human interactions, just one-to-one groups.
00:03:53.039 --> 00:04:00.319
I think these are really key because I'm noticing a lot of anxiety, a lot of people that are actually feeling this discomfort.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:09.919
And I think the the psychological mind playing that happens in the facilitation events and reading the room is becoming more and more powerful.
00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:10.560
Yeah.
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:25.120
Yeah, because these projects also become more and more complex, especially in the area where you operate, where architecture is not anymore just the building, but there's all the technology now playing a bigger role.
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:44.240
And from what you just shared, it sounds as if as an architect, it's almost like orchestrating all these different inputs and then translating a vision into something that when it's built, it cannot be changed that fast anymore.
00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.480
So really aligning on what is our shared understanding.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.600
Do we understand the same things by using the same words?
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:55.120
Or maybe do we mean the same thing by using different words?
00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:55.759
Yeah.
00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:58.000
I like the metaphor of music.
00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:07.040
I often in my uh you know, group meetings, management meetings, design meetings, whatever they are, um, use the metaphor of the symphony orchestra.
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:26.720
You know, I like to think that I'm more the conductor, but I have my, you know, my lead pianist, my lead vioncello, I have, you know, those five particular entities in the room that are driving their particular sphere or their particular sphere of influence, but the others then are coordinating behind them.
00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:28.639
So you have this sort of layering effect.
00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:29.199
Yeah.
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:30.319
Beautiful.
00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:38.639
And I would love to to dig deeper in the work that you do and the role that facilitation plays in there.
00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:51.519
And I think to get the audience on board, maybe you can share a little bit of context of what is it that you do and who is this lead pianist in your orchestra and then and the cello.
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:58.000
Essentially, just as a shortcut, I've been an architect now for over 20 years.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.000
I'm originally from South Africa.
00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:10.240
So when I did my studies, it was very much under the Royal Institute of British Architects curriculum because we are still part of the Commonwealth, but in the African context.
00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:15.040
So there was a nice duality happening there in the late 90s, early 2000s.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:23.279
But the last four years of my career have been going back to one of my first passions, which is around solving some big problems.
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.199
I love research and innovation.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:31.120
I believe there's not enough happening in the built environment in general, not just in architecture.
00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:36.959
So I have found myself over the last three or four years really connecting dots.
00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:41.839
I'm, you know, through my network and through other, you know, people I'm connected to.
00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:47.360
There's a lot of amazing people doing amazing work, but in their own little silo.
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:52.240
And buildings sort of touch on us all in a way.
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:56.319
You know, we live and work 80% of our lives in buildings.
00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:08.079
You know, let's be also aware of context with you know, Europe, but a lot of places around the world, this is quite a phenomenon, and it's going to become more so with climate and all the rest, you know, places getting hotter, for example.
00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:16.000
So I joined those dots, and it always starts with those three or four believers that you know believe there is a vision there.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.199
I mean, I came up with one about building like termites.
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.199
I had a lot of naysayers saying, what are you talking about?
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.600
You know, looking at me like I was actually mad.
00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:30.800
But then I had a good friend of mine, Volkram, who is our engineer who totally understood it.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:40.000
And then, you know, he connected to another material scientist who's working on, and then before you know it, you've got those four or five believers in.
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:49.120
And then because you have those, you can get the other 10, 20, 30, in this case, this particular project, 60 that bought in.
00:07:49.439 --> 00:08:03.519
Because you can't just be the sole individual as much as you drive it and lead it, and you're also that player coach, or that you're also able to play the instruments in the symphony orchestra if we keep to that metaphor.
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:12.480
You have an understanding, but then you empower the others to drive their own group and their own vision.
00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:17.920
And it's a case of giving everyone an equal say in the room, allowing them to have their space.
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.959
And it's just really envisaging putting them all together.
00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.279
And that's where my work has taken me.
00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:28.879
So essentially, I'm bringing projects together, developing these projects with others.
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:38.000
So it's a very much a co-creation collaboration process of people that are not traditionally in the architecture and engineering industry.
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:45.600
We have the art biologists, we have uh computer scientists, we have psychologists, we have all sorts.
00:08:46.000 --> 00:09:27.120
And to really then understand where we're going with this, we're building a semi-private, semi-public owned living innovation laboratory here in the southern part of the Swiss Alps to allow thinkers and people who've got wonderful ideas, writing amazing papers in various academic institutes and places around Europe and outside as well, to actually learn by doing, sort of really bringing this sort of polymyth approach, breaking down boundaries and actually connecting people and saying, you know, you come together, you know, material science and engineer, there's a wonderful energy, there's a there's an impact point that we can do some really amazing stuff with.
00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:32.559
And if I think of popcorn, it's like I like to turn up the heat and just start, you know, going for it.
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:36.480
And then we all sort of tap into that energy and and run with it.
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:37.200
Yeah.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.120
And it's it's fascinating, especially yesterday.
00:09:41.200 --> 00:10:05.360
I interviewed Barbara on the podcast, and we spoke about her work in multi-stakeholder high-stakes meetings for climate action, where it's mostly so she has a background in the legal sector, she's a lawyer and speaking about these multi-stakeholder meetings to create policies and this kind of change.
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:15.519
And now I I see a lot of parallels in what you do where you're building something material, buildings or build environments.
00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:21.600
But the context of these high-stake multi-stakeholder meetings is similar, I assume.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:22.399
It is.
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.799
And also the the big thing that drives a little bit of fear into everybody around the built environment is its permanence.
00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:29.840
Yeah.
00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:33.039
You know, we are, you know, we have big sums of money.
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:45.679
We're probably arguably some of the biggest investments any multinational or any private individual will make is building something for him or herself or for their bigger institution.
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.399
So the built environment is a big cost center.
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:57.039
And I think what's also coming out now is that we do a lot of our work, or myself personally, by projecting ourselves into the future.
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:07.440
You know, we are in inherently designing for, you know, now you because you reference climate change, we should be designing for 50 to 80 years.
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.120
You know, previously the mindset has always been 15 to 20.
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:18.320
So now it's all about adaptability, it's all about reuse, it's all about identifying what that building could become.
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:29.039
You know, the classic example that everyone on the on in the audience might assimilate to is you know, COVID, you're in an apartment, but they didn't give you actually a terrace or an outdoor space.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:34.399
So these things have been taken away for various reasons, real estate and all the rest.
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:37.600
We won't get into that, but spaces need to be adaptable.
00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.639
One, but you're also grounded in the present.
00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:59.279
So we've we've become very aware of what we we we assume is our level of comfort and our needs, but always looking back and understanding what the past, because you have various examples, and there's always that buildup of case studies of what's done right and what's done wrong.
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:11.039
Um, and that's how we generally facilitate the process of design, coming to the core principles and how what is the building supposed to be used for, who will be using it and such like.
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:26.799
Then I like to throw another layer on top of it because architecture for me is sort of sitting in between the three, sort of you could think of a triangle, you're sitting in between the sciences, the arts, and the humanities, because it is for people.
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:40.559
So you constantly are bouncing off these different sides of this triangle to find that sweet spot in the middle where humans come together, people come together in these spaces to share stories and build memories.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:45.039
That's my very simple romantic thought of what we do.
00:12:45.440 --> 00:13:08.480
And we're coming to the realization in the Western world that we've lost touch of what these buildings could be and what they were, in a sense, in the sense that they were more attuned to our senses, they were more natural, they were more, you know, when I talk about just simple things like materials that are breathing, a bit more natural, easy to reuse.
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.240
A lot of these things were there.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:22.960
It's just big business lobbies, certain things got their way in, and we've gone down a certain road now to now, you know, the second most ubiquitous material in the world is man-made and it's concrete.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:29.039
The first is water, which is you know, that's what our planet is made of.
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.679
So I find it interesting that that's where we are in society.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.600
And I wonder what role power structures play to that.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:45.200
Because I mean, as facilitators, full-time facilitators who guide groups through processes, the space in which we operate plays a big role.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:54.960
Do we have, and that's something also Barbara mentioned, how can we envision something and be creative in our conversations and the discourse if we're sitting in a room without windows?
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:55.440
Yeah.
00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:02.720
And I think the way how spaces are shaped and designed is also often a manifestation of power dynamics.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.120
Can we actually move the furniture?
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:06.320
Do we have windows?
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.639
Do we have rows or circles?
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:21.679
So, what role do then power structures and politics, maybe in the broader sense, play in these collaborations that you experience or facilitate?
00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:25.759
First and foremost, I tend to go with, as you alluded to, the space.
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:27.759
Meeting on neutral ground helps.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.759
I love going for a walk.
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.279
That does wonders.
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.200
You know, if you can, and there's an opportunity before actually having a meeting.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:39.919
I've done it a few times where you know there's going to be some big power players in the room.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:41.679
Meet European way.
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.399
Obviously, I live close to Italy, so coffee is a big one.
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.399
You know, that also relaxes a bit.
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:52.480
And like a glass of metal doesn't also do any, you know, it does some positive reactions.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.639
But that's key, I think.
00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:01.360
The other one is I've just learned to just just to be honest in the brutal sense, but in a nice way.
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.440
You know, don't beat around the bush.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:06.720
You know it's that you know some tensions are there.
00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:17.120
And then the other great one I also use just because I'm dealing on such a personal level with the projects, is playing that psychological role.
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.320
Is some people just don't like to be in the group.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:23.919
Take them aside, have a one-to-one and say, look, what's going on here?
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.120
You know, take them out of it, have a five-minute one-to-one, I find it's very handy.
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.720
Because most of what I'm dealing with is actually people's fears.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:35.120
Can you share more about that?
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.320
Fears because A, you're taking such a massive investment.
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.320
So there's a there's a risk associated to getting it wrong, you know.
00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:54.480
And then the other one is promoting concepts around energy, water, concepts of around sustainability, climate change, and using natural materials, and then associating a value to it.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:04.159
It's quite interesting, the value structures, cultures, having worked within Africa and Europe, how these different cultures relate to what's of value.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.080
You know, it'd be amazed how valuable a kitchen is to some.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.840
And to others, you know, it's the lounge and the living area.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.279
It's the sort of the entrance, it's those private and public spaces.
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:20.559
So there's a lot of, primarily in my experience, listening.
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:32.320
And I'm always constantly finding or truly trying to get to the point of what is the assumption and what is the expectation, not just in the meeting, but in the long term.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:57.039
And this is where the big advantage we have, and I would stress if you could, in other sort of environments, you interviewed yesterday, I think it was Barbara you mentioned on the legal aspect, using images, using graphics, telling stories, and you know, telling a funny anecdote of something that happened to you, and you know, trying to put a positive light on it also breaks that that tension.
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:18.319
But we have the wonderful advantage of using imagery, you know, and that's not just focused on words and numbers, can be a very powerful way of just really shifting the whole thing and and actually going to the site or the location where you're building because you're outdoors, that that really breaks it as well, not just being in a room with no windows.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:18.960
Yeah.
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:29.440
And I just realized, as you mentioned it, the imagery that, of course, as architects, this is how you create a shared vision, literally, yeah, by seeing it.
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:36.400
And it's something that we use or facilitators use through graphic recorders to create a shared vision.
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:42.720
And it's still not around as a general thing that everyone would rely on.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:50.799
Although, yes, it is so important, especially in multi-stakeholder, multidisciplinary, uh multicultural settings.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:51.359
Yeah.
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.279
Another one I notice and we use, I actually have a box of Lego.
00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.759
Lego architecture, it's all white pieces, and I leave that with clients.
00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:04.480
Or we we we actually have a workshop session is one of the first just to build with it.
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:13.359
Because there's a lot of people, and I go back to fears, a lot of people, and this is no particular gender because it can come always, cannot read a drawing.
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:17.359
It's something I've realized in my career going forward.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:28.240
If you put a 2G drawing on the table, be it a plan, a section elevation, a lot of people will not turn around to you and say, don't, you know, just run me through this, explain this to me.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:29.119
How does this work?
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.119
Especially if it's a new project or it's not a reform or retrofit.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.960
So overcoming those barriers is key and getting that honesty in.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.960
It's like I do it by instinct.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:46.079
I was at an event where there's facilitation on ethics and foresight.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:57.200
Very personal subject matter, very, very highly uh contextualized and culturally significant, depending on which part of the world you're from when it comes to ethics.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:04.000
And a lot of concepts were mentioned around foresight, you know, the classic acronyms you have no idea.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:11.279
I'm just inherently curious, or I will always go into a thing wanting to learn the most and just stop the conversation.
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.359
So sorry, I really I don't want to be stupid, but what does that mean?
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:21.359
And trying to stimulate people to actually come out of that is challenging.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.839
And I can understand where things can go a little awry.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:30.640
And I I was just writing down psychological safety, how to how to create the space.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.880
And acronyms, I think, is a beautiful example.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:37.440
That's one I always use when I train on psychological safety.
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.920
When we use acronyms or lingo, it creates this inclusion.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.519
Oh, we are one team, we understand each other, so it's nice and cozy.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:55.359
But as soon as there's one person who doesn't know the acronym or the technical wording, we need such a high level of psychological safety for them to dare to ask.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:05.599
So I was wondering when I imagine the setting in which you operate, they're highly skilled experts from different domains.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:19.119
And well, when I think back of my time to my time at the university, the highest skilled, the most successful professors were always those who dared to ask the question first, I don't understand, walk me through.
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:25.039
And still there are also others who are so used to always have all the answers.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:37.119
How do you create this level of psychological safety so that you can make the implicit explicit by having everyone asking these questions and asking to clarify and to be curious?
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.720
One way, as you mentioned, is obviously by modeling it.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.880
So you go first and ask all of these.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:44.480
But what do you do?
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:45.200
How do you do that?
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:50.720
If I get into a room, I really try and understand who's in the room before getting there.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.799
I think it's essential to know who's in the room.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:59.359
I think just giving people that respect before being in there is fundamental if you know that's your job.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:05.920
As an introvert, as a child, I uh up until the age of 12, I was at home.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.960
And then I from the age of 13 to 18, I was a boarding school.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.559
They like typical English style, see your parents once or twice a year.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.920
That really taught me to be an extrovert.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.680
You know, you you learn to survive.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:23.119
You know, if you're an introvert, middle 90s, wasn't really interesting to be.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:29.920
You know, you didn't really have many computer screens to hide yourself behind, as much as I did have the PlayStation and the Atari and the Game Boy and all the rest.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:42.079
But being from that and actually learn to be a bit ambidextrous, mixing the introvert and the introvert, the extrovert, sorry, I really make an effort to bring in the people that are quiet.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:55.039
I think it's key that yes, you will always have your first, your people that will first always jump in, lay the scene, lay a few ground rules, but make sure that everyone participates and know that they're there to participate.
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.759
Because then you also prevent on the other side what I call these sort of data.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.640
Harvesters, the ones that just come in to take.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.839
It's a give and take.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.240
So prepare to take risk.
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:09.440
It's an open forum.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:11.440
It's a trust base.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:12.240
We're here together.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.160
We're going for a collective vision.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:25.759
And when you mention sort of uh professors, because I work a lot with uh ETH, EPFL, TU Delft, TU Munich, some very, you know, very well-respected institutes.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:46.640
And strangely enough, in my experience, out of the professors I deal with, who are some very you know well qualified, experienced people, they're very gentle and very quiet people that are very co-focused on their work, get into their work and show the same passion, and they just light up like children.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.279
It is also being a bit sort of playful.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:57.119
I I try to, and that's kind of also leads to the the joy of architecting or architecture or design in general.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:09.200
You can get people to draw, you know, like we'll often bring out a big A1 sheet, and we have these sort of big thick crayons, lamy crayons that are like children you, so they all remember their child.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.759
And when you get it a bit more playful, I find that also great.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:23.759
And that's why I love Lego as a as a as a as an opportunity just to even ideate and do things that maybe aren't you know specifically related to architecture.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:32.880
I've been in a few facilitations led by Lego themselves, these wonderful sessions, which I'm sure a few members on the audience have also participated.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.960
So getting to know people is key and then bringing them into the mix.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.119
And uh, what I also hear is getting their bodies activated.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:41.440
Yeah.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.880
So by using the hands, getting tactile.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:54.240
And when you say playful, what I hear is lowering the bar of failure and with so okay, they're crayons.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.720
It's just uh an activity, an exercise.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:59.359
There's no nothing at stake now.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:05.599
And I tend to always focus on if you've asked me to facilitate and do this, you've put your trust in me.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.640
Remain professional, but also remain humble.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:21.519
You know, the egos the one thing I've noticed is that in any project I've ever participated in, you just need one ego in that room and it will neutralize and kill the whole vibe.
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:29.519
That is my biggest touch point is trying to find out that as soon as possible, because I know it will generally fail.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.000
Yeah.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.440
And that's a challenge.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:41.519
And I've been caught a few times, and you literally just have to just just you kind of have to give up and just let it go the way it's gonna go, and just realize that you're not gonna win some.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:54.640
Because failure is an option, and that's what we were touching on previously in the half an hour leading up to this discussion was you know, this level of professionalism and just some people in it that are just going to be toxic.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.319
They come in with other issues that are not relevant, and that's just human nature.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:06.720
Sometimes you're gonna get it, but it's not you as a facilitator, it's it's them for whatever reason.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.000
And I think you learn that with the experience and age.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.480
You're not always gonna get the yes, and you're not always gonna get the positive feedback.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.160
Sometimes they're gonna be negative and you're gonna build a certain resilience to it.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:23.680
But just realize that always be open to learning, but it's never you that's at fault.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:24.960
Yeah.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:26.799
That's an important lesson.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:27.039
Yeah.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.359
Some players in the room that can really, really lead it.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:36.960
And you've got to be strong of character and strong of mind as well to just work with it and work around it.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.319
And to what extent can you be strong in actions?
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:47.599
Because as you mentioned, it it takes one to destroy the safety that you have built in the space.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:54.720
And I wonder then, obviously, it depends on what role they play and how relevant their position is.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:03.599
How do you deal then with it if you spot this toxic person that might put the entire project at risk?
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:11.599
Generally call a timeout immediately and really you know spend a one-to-one with that that person and say, where are we going?
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.720
You know, what's what's on your mind, share it with me, let's let's try and get around this.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:18.079
You know, is there a way?
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.759
And really become a bit like a mediator and negotiator.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:32.160
Because it, you know, all what I do as an architect in general, we we don't paint the picture, we don't sculpt the sculpture.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:39.440
You know, we we all co-created, everyone in the team, and these teams can be, you know, 20, 30 people, if not more.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.279
And then there's that layering belief it.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:50.079
So stressing that point, you know, we're all going for the common goal, but then also reading the signs and saying, you know, okay, your point is valid.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:51.440
Where can we meet in the middle?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:57.119
So you you you're still going forward, and it's a case of also so pushing it.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:10.400
I have the advantage that I run my office with my wife and business partner, and I'm fully aware as a male, you know, middle-aged, it's sometimes best that I step out and she steps in.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.319
So I I have that also at my disposal.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:20.720
So as much as she prefers me to be the forward lead, you know, she's in the room as well.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:28.160
I love it personally because I have that extra pair of eyes and ears so that I can get the feedback because you're not picking up everything.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:34.000
So if you can facilitate and do these things in groups or in pairs, it's obviously advantageous.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:40.480
But sometimes there is a point that a different perspective makes a difference.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.000
And nine times out of ten, that's how we sort of neutralize it.
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:45.599
And so far, so good.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.319
Yeah.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.079
Yeah, it's fascinating.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:59.279
And another point I want to come back to you mentioned that the professors you have met, they they're quite humble and love their work and their domain.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.039
They do their research.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:08.960
And then suddenly you're opening the space to a creative, something creative that they're not in control of.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.160
They have to rely on the expertise of others.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.240
How do you bridge that?
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:20.079
So how to enroll people who are usually soul workers or thinkers?
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:22.720
I don't know if I'm ashamed to say it, but I'm gonna be honest.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:23.440
Yes, please.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.359
I I try and make them feel it's their idea.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:29.599
Always works best.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.440
Just, you know, really, we're all going the same direction.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.319
If you need to feel that, be my guest.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:44.799
I I really I don't have that necessity to always be on top, top dog, front of a house, whatever you want to call it.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.720
And I think that's just a great one.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:53.039
You know, just being humble, just really not having a big enough ego that you sort of kill that.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:57.759
Because, but when I say that, also, is that person that important?
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:21.359
Because I do feel that in some cases, the the second or third, or the person that's trying to elevate his or herself and coming up in their career, you know, I think of the Icelandic football team always, you know, or or the Jamaican bobsled team, you know, these concepts of people that are just absolutely driven and are really out of context.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:42.000
And you wouldn't assume it because of teamwork and coming together, because there's no, you know, Galactico or, you know, using the sport team, I maybe should leave that and go maybe to musical, you know, where we don't have this single entity, but when you get that whole team playing from one sheet, one hymn sheet, one score, is a beautiful thing to listen to.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:46.480
And and that's that that that really fine point of trying to find that.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:49.680
And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:53.440
And I would argue that on most cases, I feel I failed.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:55.200
I think I could have done it better.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:04.319
But that's also because I'm a person that is constantly criticizing myself on how to do it better and asking people to give me observations.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:12.559
You know, these people are not necessarily friends, because sometimes friends aren't that honest with you, but I think there's always something to learn.
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:19.039
You know, I made reference to the before the you know we started this interview was last week I was in Dubai.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:26.640
You know, as much as you understand cultures and you read and you learn about etiquette until you're in the room, you make mistakes.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:28.079
Just be honest.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:40.000
You just really say, you know, I apologize, I wasn't supposed, you know, it's wonderful to me or whatever, but be humble about it, just be human and don't try and compound these errors that you've made and continually go down the same directory.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:48.240
I think using humor and you know really dropping yourself below, I think also neutralizes things quite significantly.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:49.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:58.079
And normalizing that in the end we're all human beings, and especially in your case, you're coming together with a really around a shared vision.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:03.599
I have to be totally frank, also, you know, these are the things that I've learned possibly in the last three to four years.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:05.200
You know, I've been doing this for 20.
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:13.359
You know, it's a long, hard struggle, and you realize that, you know, that's the whole point of age, maturity, growing up.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.240
You you go through these evolutions all the time.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:23.440
So it what I'm telling you now literally has already started happening in the last two or three years before that.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:27.759
There's a lot of train wrecks and a lot of mess mess ups and a lot of failure.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.240
Yeah.
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:34.079
But being allowed to learn from my own failure has been allowing me to put me in this position now.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.279
And also being more generous with the failures of others.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:38.000
Yes.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:45.119
And I think that's what we often refer to as um the inner work, the inner growth journey.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:51.039
That at the end, yes, it's great if you're a content matter subject matter expert and you know all the content.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:57.759
If then you're unable to apply it collaboratively with others, it will fall flat.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:05.680
And yeah, and I was just wondering because for me, similarly, I I grew up in the higher education sector, right?
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:13.039
Uh universities where it's not necessarily the culture of yes-ending each other and building on each other's ideas.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:13.759
It's very rough.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.519
The feedback we get is very direct, very cool sometimes.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.279
It's very competitive.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:36.799
And then suddenly bringing people into the space who might not have had the chance to grow this self-awareness and empathy and even the language of how do we respond to an idea that we don't agree with.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.319
And I often refer to an experience.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:46.319
I was in a summer square as a PhD student, and we had this professor from Harvard, Leipzig, was his name.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.920
It was of course, everyone wanted to impress him.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:33:01.200
And I really remember this one situation where I said something in class and he looked at me and said, Yes, Miriam, and have you thought off and would say the exact opposite.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:10.799
And this was the moment where I realized how you can, through language, create the space where it feels safe to say something stupid or to fail.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.160
Because he could have also said, no, Miriam, that's wrong.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:14.480
Yeah.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:24.240
And then I would have been in overthinking mode, bashing myself and didn't even have, wouldn't have had the capacity to listen to the answer.
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.440
That's where you have to put yourself in other people's shoes.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:40.880
I try and roll reverse, you know, and go through certain scenarios that have played out for me and say, you know, we we all have moments where outside of our professional life, our personal life sometimes influences.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:46.000
And you're a bit short or you're a bit, you know, a bit too direct, or you overgo it a bit.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:53.680
And then you have to also be where it's saying, you know, okay, yeah, put on the other, if I was in that person's shoes, how would have I reacted?
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:55.599
You know, I'd probably take it the same way.
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.240
And I think that's also a good analogy.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.440
Shifting the dialogue always to look at from the other perspective.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:01.920
Yeah.
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:08.000
Um, and then the other one is also participating in great facilitation events.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.599
Or being in a environment learning from other facilitators.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.639
You know, I recently had an experience last three, Thursday.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:23.039
Um, Aaron, his name was, I forget his surname, worked for the Singaporean ministry, fantastic facilitator, headed up there, Futures in Foresight.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.360
And what a personality.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:31.679
Just so energized, vivacious, had it had a structure, you know, a really great structure.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:54.559
It was on you know, foresight mechanism, how to facilitate a good foresight meeting, going back to the purpose of this interview, and just one or two visuals, but just really allowed the room to go with it, dropped in a lot of personal stories that were humorous and funny, but then also always brought it back, but wasn't so fixed in his structure that he lost the moments in the room.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.320
And he really got everybody involved.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:06.880
And we had some power people from the UN, from various other high-level agencies, and there were about 20 of us, to actually watch it happen is wonderful.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:26.320
And then to have those facilitators, you know, like for me, yourself or a Chris Lukkaman or a Bruno Josani, that have done this as a career that you can then sort of phone up and ask, or you know, they were in the room, or they are your semi-mentor because you're preparing for a particular, you know, a bit more sort of public sort of facilitation, be an interview or whatever.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:33.519
Also, you know, we're we'll we're all we all have similar hang-ups and preoccupations, you know.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.880
Share knowledge.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:41.360
It's not a competition, it's actually to provide a better experience for the others that are participating.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.760
And this is where that collaboration and cooperation is key.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:52.559
Yeah, the moment we can come together as as equals and really have this humility to actually learn.
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.719
And the moment we are open to actually look at others to learn from them.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:06.400
Because I I think it's you can only appreciate the mastery of a skill if you know just a little bit, at least a little bit about it.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:09.840
Because then you see, oh, how did they do that?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.920
How did they shift the conversation?
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.519
How did they switch from conflict to curiosity?
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:17.360
Otherwise, you wouldn't notice that.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.000
No.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:18.960
Correct.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:28.159
And that's where being open and uh yeah, a little less I I would even throw in the word masculine, you know, masculine men generally, we're very competitive.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:34.000
We we like to be the top doc and and realizing that that doesn't necessarily get you far.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:37:01.039
It's also good just to sort of, you know, step it down, be confident, have that that confidence and that and that courage to to to to present your point, but also realize when the moment is right to overplay it or not, and to sort of try the other perspective and yeah, a moment of silence in the room is also uh a powerful tool that I had to learn, and it took me a long time to learn, just to take that time out, let people digest it.
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:08.079
Yeah, let people even take a minute silence just to really process what's been asked of them or what's required of them.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Yeah.
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.480
Also respecting the slow thinkers in the room.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:14.079
Slow and deep.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:14.719
Yeah.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:26.480
And the silence also reminds me of a story you shared before we hit the record button at the beginning of a conference, multinational conference with uh starting with uh Marina Abramovich uh eye gazing.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.119
Yeah.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:36.960
And how this I think what I what is so fascinating about it, because it puts the attention to oh, we're dealing with humans.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:49.440
If you it makes you observe, it makes you actually work or connect with someone with other, with your your other senses, and I and I say that very sort of openly.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:38:05.440
You know, a lot of our we're very visual, everything's very visual, and we're driven by a lot of sound, and these are I don't think it's there's a reason why we were able to create audiovisual experiences, and that's why it's predominant in our society.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:18.000
You know, but we also lose sight of the fact that you know neuroscience is quite clearly defined and and and shown that 40% of what we actually visually take in is what we remember.
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:24.159
The other 60% is what we actually create in our mind through biases, experience, and all things.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.239
So the majority is actually based on our past and what we've actually assimilated or collected.
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:39.599
But when you're forced to sit in a situation where you don't know the other person on the other side of the table, and you're asked to just stare into that person's eyes for a minute.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:50.320
And this was actually done at the House of Beautiful Business at their event in Dubai, which is a wonderful organization, looking at other ways of doing these interactions.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:39:01.519
It's incredible to watch how the body responds because you cut out the voice, you cut out the ear, so to speak, and you're just literally communicating through eye contact.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:34.480
And how you sort of the body, you we both just naturally started to, but we took time, you know, like 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, and actually seeing people, and this is also linked to what we said about the greetings and in professional business when you actually talk with someone, look into their eyes, but also being mindful that in certain cultures, this certain age, yeah, you you you don't do that, you know, being understanding of those ethics, and this is how we become more multicultural societies, this is going to become a bigger thing.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:35.679
It's always been there.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:46.719
I just think we're becoming more aware of it because not one way of doing things is opposing or sort of being repotented on the other, you know, dominating.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.840
And I think we're becoming a bit more mindful of this.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:56.239
Um and then also calling or being aware of the biases, as you say, that show up.
00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:05.920
And then I think having the opportunity to call that out without judgment, but that it's just a normal way of our brains functioning.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:14.400
I um I remember I was recently in a workshop by Mahit Jacobs, and she did that on Zoom.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:21.119
So we were paired with one other person just staring at the screen with the eyes, it's a bit difficult.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:29.360
And then um after a minute pointing out what we believe we have in common without without speaking with the other person.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.559
And that was a beautiful activity on many levels.
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:39.840
One because we yes, we look at the person and we become aware of all of our projections.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:41:07.760
And one participant who was joining from Israel, she was extremely touched because she said that she grew up, and especially over the past year or longer, to look for differences and constantly highlighting differences and suddenly being invited to see similarities and to spot on that without being distracted by language or words.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:08.719
Interesting.
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:10.320
Very beautiful.
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:24.239
It is as I we had this uh I refer to this foresight workshop we had on ethics and foresight, and around the table we had Kazakhstan, South Africa, Swiss, Hong Kong, France, and America.
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:24.960
Ooh.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.000
Very mixed, very nice.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:38.639
But actually, facilitation was allowed the group to go very strong personalities in the seven, because we had two facilitators and then the five of us, I was the only male.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.480
So it was it was really a pleasant, and it was three hours.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:50.800
This wasn't just half an hour, and we didn't really know each other, so that's a long time together, and we didn't actually have many breaks, it just went.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.320
That's the dynamic of it.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:42:04.960
But how different cultural perspectives played such a huge influence on the dialogue and and being able to listen to the differences, but also the similarities, going back to your point.
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:12.559
And this is also something about capturing this understanding of differences and similarities.
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:12.960
Yeah.
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:30.159
Because sometimes you you want, you know, I look for people that are not of my, let's put it this way, not of my profession, because I look to be challenged, because having too many of the same people in the same room can also be a little bit, you know, one-dimensional.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.960
It's also trying to find that balance, and I think that's the key.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:43.760
You know, I I look at things in holistic, you know, what's it, what's it in a holistic sense, and I think more spherical than I do in circularities or linear.
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:48.079
Yeah, that there's all different sides to the to that sphere.
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:58.800
You know, the classic one is the different side of the world is, you know, the classic view of the world we see is is land, the other side is water, but that's also a side, it's also a perspective, the same with the moon.
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:03.039
You see, all these things you need to go from the other side.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:11.440
And what I often do, you know, we we hit uh a bit of a design block as a design process in designing drawings or plans.
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:18.079
I tell some of my team, just literally turn it upside down, look at it from another way, and also don't keep beating it.
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:21.599
You know, if you can't and you've got a block, move on to something else.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:30.719
You know, even go for a walk, go for a run, do something, come back to it, allow yourself that time, because then different stimulants of things that happen.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:34.320
Because I think a lot of what we do also is too fixed in time.
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.519
Need those times away in order to do it again.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.400
How you actually make that work and how you actually get remunerated, I I I struggle.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:48.400
It's a difficult one, but that time away, as much as the time together, is just as powerful.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:49.119
Yeah.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Yes, it reminds me of um Cal Newport's book, Slow Productivity, where he refers to the fact that there's very little academic research on.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:08.800
on productivity in the modern knowledge age, because there's no way to actually measure it.
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:10.079
Okay, interesting.
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:19.199
Because in the industrial age, it's very clear, okay, it's the time you use for the output you get, the time and money, so the resource you use for the output you get.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:29.119
In the knowledge age, sometimes you get an idea in a split of a second because you studied for 20 years, sometimes because you didn't study, sometimes it takes longer.
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.760
So what is the component of time as opposed to output?
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:36.559
And what does productivity actually mean nowadays?
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.039
That crossed my mind as you spoke about remuneration.
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:44.960
Yeah.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.039
Beautiful book on many, many levels, um, slow productivity.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:49.599
Okay.
00:44:50.079 --> 00:45:10.800
And um what I hear what is the opportunity of in what you do is um that you can actually curate the groups and find the different stakeholders that would complement each other, um, that you can work with but also challenge the different perspectives in a certain way.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:26.800
And I would be curious to hear what your curation process is, because we also spoke about the toxic people and to what extent so how can you ensure that you're open enough to different perspectives without falling over the edge?
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:32.960
And then from there I would love to build the bridge to the practical implementations for what happens after the discussion.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:33.599
Okay.
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:49.519
First it like anything most of these interactions start randomly because I'm at an event or a certain person, you know, how like how we got introduced you know there's some storyline that happens before that or some person that or activity that makes it happen.
00:45:49.679 --> 00:46:01.599
And I literally go on gut feeling I I see something in a person, I see an energy, I have a discussion briefly and then I try and take it out of that context as a one-to-one and deviant person.
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:17.199
I know for me within three conversations generally maximum five I kind of have learned about you as a person enough to realize you know the three things I really look for are what are what is your curiosity?
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:19.920
You know, what is your creativity?
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:21.840
Because I believe everyone's creative.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.920
I don't necessarily be because if you don't draw you don't sketch you're not creative.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:27.280
I think there's creativity everywhere.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.559
It's just finding it.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.960
And then I meant your competence, you know, what is your real driver?
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:33.760
What is your passion?
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:34.880
What are you what are you good at?
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.039
What what do you really want to do?
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:46.960
And and these things can simmer I mean I've had some projects that are simmer for three or four years before we've actually found the means and we've actually activated some have happened in in days.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:49.519
And it's just being open to that.
00:46:49.840 --> 00:47:29.920
Before then bringing the four or five or three in the case people to the group that are like the core driving group of generally we'll we build consortiums around uh research grants and and sort of foundation funding always try and keep to you know an odd number even numbers can be challenging it's nice to have a bit of an odd so that you drive it I've had one incident where it's really fallen through but simply because I've spent the time and effort to get to know the individual personalities and really listening to what their interests are and where they want to go a lot of people I am dealing with in research.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:42.239
So academics are quite clear in their their vision it's then highlighting to them oh by the way you know if you do that in this context with this other person I think and then they start seeing it.
00:47:42.480 --> 00:48:06.079
And then once we have that in play then we have about two or three sort of um workshop sessions which I generally lead and the way I started is I do a two to three pager of of really looking at you know what's the whole contribution what's the problem what we're trying to solve references anything that then people can drop into sometimes it depends on the platform.
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:10.880
People are more you know Excel you know spreadsheet or or Word doc.
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:22.719
Sometimes it's it's a mirror board um but it comes around discussion and I think the biggest thing I've learned is this it's all about the people you've got to get that mix right.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:32.960
If you get that wrong you know if if you've got one particular entity as I say going back to the ego when we said sort of started this conversation about 40 45 minutes ago that really blows it.
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:53.119
So I try and find that out first and then you know we've put seven seven consortiums together so far we've been successful with five wow I think that's just because of the power of the people but also being mindful of the fact that you have to play the politics you you have to have the right players.
00:48:54.079 --> 00:49:46.960
And I realize that because you know actually where I'm calling you from or where I'm based is in the southern part of Switzerland we're on the sort of the border with Italy and I live in rural Switzerland so I live at the base of the Swiss Alps and having lived here in a very small community for the last 15 years you realize this is a microcosm of society in general you only need those four or five families or names that the rest follow in a way rightly or wrongly that there are those influences let's use this sort of current terminology good ones that if you have them in a group or part of the discussion and you empower them obviously they've got to fit obviously they've got to be part of it they can be very very good in that binding of everyone together you they they become like that that mycelium really join everyone together and they see this vision.
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:52.719
And then just really allowing people the opportunity to create it themselves.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:50:09.760
I really focus on creating just a simple structure that then allows you to co-create into it not come and say you know this is my way of doing it and not having that colonial mentality of just you know lamb basing everyone with this this is it you got to buy in kind of thing.
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:22.480
But I don't believe in if you design it they will come I think you need to really build it together as a reason why spaces and and places in the world have succeeded because they weren't planned.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:28.239
They were very organic and not that predefined you know very sort of grid.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:34.880
And I follow that as a principle and then once people sort of get buy-in is to really allow them to fly with it.
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:50.239
Because I also have this other sort of thing I'd rather know now if you know it's going to go wrong by empowering you and letting you go with it with the risks associated around trust and everything else because trust is a huge one.
00:50:51.199 --> 00:51:01.760
I always remember the saying I forget by who you know the rate of change how does it go the rate of change happens at trust you know how much you trust defines how much you change something.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:06.079
That is also what I found essential to know upfront.
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.440
Just let it run let it be a bit organic and then get to a point.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:14.000
Obviously I'm not doing it traditional facilitation where you're in for a day of info.
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:17.920
So to actually put that into that context I would find difficult.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:34.320
And I would love to know more about how you would do that Miriam because I have that luxury of time which I touched on earlier making that time allow for things to distill and so to settle so you have activation and you have this distillation process.
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:42.559
And that's how I play because I'm the main driver in it and knowing that I can determine that time I'm not I'm not rushing.
00:51:42.719 --> 00:52:04.559
So I try and play with that as best I can thank you for walking us through I think it's um we throw some coffee and some Lego and a few games that also that also spaces the start with relationships first and connection over content reminds me of the two founders of Netflix.
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:09.119
They started the company by they decided that they wanted to do something together.
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:18.400
So they would share a drive every morning commute to work together and every day one of them would come up with a potential business idea and they would challenge it.
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:18.960
Okay.
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:26.960
And it took them maybe a year of everyday commuting until they had the idea and they started building prototyping and building it.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:41.599
And then what I hear is the first having this basis, this small circle of trusted peers and then growing it slowly and one the odd numbers and then starting with hard facts.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:48.480
So making explicit here's the two pages with everything that we know can we agree on that and can we start from that?
00:52:48.880 --> 00:53:02.880
And I think where it goes wrong in many organizations because when I think of your process and how you describe it, why would it be different for any meeting a manager hosts?
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:15.920
And I think the lack of preparation, the lack of time, the lack of relationship building the lack of ensuring that we are based on common ground and shared knowledge.
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:22.480
Okay, these are the facts and then the lack of courage not to invite certain people.
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:36.239
I think that very often it grows too big too fast, especially online because we have so many chairs and then the odds are higher of course that this one rotten tomato this one toxic person will be there by a lack of curation.
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:56.079
Yeah start small you know don't be too ambitious sometimes that's hard to to to quantify but I think you lose a lot if you have like more than 20 people in in a room I think if you if you're dealing with a hundred you know wow you are seriously still and you need multiple points then but then you need to really be clear on how on how that works.
00:53:56.239 --> 00:54:04.159
I've never been in that experience I've seen it done you know I would argue that the biggest meeting I've ever had to facilitate is between 15 and 20.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.000
So that's definitely my comfort zone.
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:08.239
And I I I I enjoy that.
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:27.760
And then it really depends on the on the purpose of the meeting and what are you doing with the outcomes I interviewed the co-founder of the liberating structures Andrei Lipjanovitz who was specialized on creating very simple structures to facilitate very large meetings and to boil them down to decision making.
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:58.239
But then it depends on the context and is there one decision or can you actually continue to collaborate with 100 or do you just need their buy-in and their first ideas which then leads me to to another point in workshop facilitation we often speak about the day after so obviously for you it's a longer process but at some point you have assembled all the ideas, you have all the experts and then there's a practical implementation.
00:54:58.400 --> 00:54:58.639
Yeah.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:56:19.199
So what are the learnings in that so how do you get from the idea on paper to okay let's start and keep the momentum first one is uh empowering individuals but giving them a clear deadline and say right in three four months time we have to have this in play it might be a proposal it might be a handover of a set of drawings at a certain scale whatever but a having that deadline I always end every meeting okay next meeting is and next hand in is just as architects we are deadline driven we you know it's it's the nature of the game and the business but also maintaining momentum means having regular catch you know sort of catch-ups I think it's fundamental there's some people that are just straight by and just go and start working it away chipping away also being of the realization that some people cram it at the end you know it it it's there's all these different gradients of different personalities in these groups it's it's trying to sort of manage them but I really kick into very much a project management mentality then and that's where I shift my personality and become very you know regimented and say right we're gonna have this we're gonna meet this we're gonna meet every two weeks this is what your deadline this is what your hand in there's the shared doc.
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:26.639
You know if no one's performing you're sort of pulling them aside and saying you know why what's up you know can we discuss?
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:32.639
And then what happens is I've generally found that I then get to a point where I step back.
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:48.239
Because by that stage in a successful proposal there is generally one person that really just brings everyone together and he or she is just much more skilled in it than I am a lot more respected in the circle that I'm in.
00:56:48.320 --> 00:57:04.639
And it's generally related to a professional level or most cases on an academic side you know getting your uh professional investigator, your PI involved it's generally a person that is sitting at a very high level his or her chair, his or her sort of laboratory.
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:09.760
And then they really kick into the responsibility of it because it's their name.
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:25.199
So it's also knowing when to step back sometimes gets to the point that you're facilitating something that you are not actually going to have your name on it or it's not going to be your face that's going to be the conclusion of this.
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:31.760
So it it it's also allowing them to sort of get to that point where then they take you step back and you're more of a supporting role.
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:33.679
Yeah how can I help?
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:43.519
How can I you know we've got this far it's it's going through that journey with you the whole time and then saying right okay we know we've got to go we know how this is going to be successful.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:58:06.000
We're all God buy-in now that's pretty clear you know and also sometimes it's just the star alignment doesn't work I've had some situations we're ready for the proposal ready for the handing but sometimes you need to pull the plug and say we revisit this in a month or two because a personal situation happens or something happens in one of the group because XYZ just realizing things are changeable.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:11.440
You know sometimes programs are programs but they end up changing.
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:30.239
I except trying to keep us close to it you know but I've learned the hard way being someone that's very programmed myself and very structured and very you know driven and determined that sometimes you just need to put it off because you risk then just making the whole thing explode because you put too much pressure on you.
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:41.119
And that's such an important observation the you stepping back as a leaving more space for the for others to step in as a project manager.
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:54.719
And I can see how this is difficult coming back to the inner game to the ego to the humility because it is your baby and I can imagine that there is then this polarity between trust and control.
00:58:54.880 --> 00:59:19.280
Yes I want to trust them but can I really and can I let go of control and what's what's fair I think also it's based on contribution and I think this is a very open discussion most of the time it does come down to in project management terms you know what's the quality you're producing you know what's the time you're putting in and what is the cost or remuneration that you're expecting.
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:23.119
Yeah and what are the opportunity costs you can't avoid them.
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:33.840
You have to approach that and I approach them as soon as we know we're a concrete team and this is what we're going for and that's the objective you put that on the table immediately you don't avoid it.
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:37.840
Because you need to know that everyone's bought in on multiple levels.
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:46.559
It's not just an interest and then it shifts and then you know I'm the most important I'm this is me this is what I want because that will break everything and then you've literally wasted your time.
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:50.960
Yeah and we cannot pay mortgage from just a shared vision.
00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:58.719
Yeah and this is where culture comes in and I think also personalities come in some cultures are much more direct.
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:06.320
Just realizing that there's a moment that you're gonna have to say these things you're gonna have to say some hard things do it nicely.
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:17.519
There's always a way of how to say these things that I find it beneficial to say it earlier rather than later but the timing is essential because you can blow it.
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:29.199
Because you don't want to be too far in so that it's almost a point of no return where either you break it or and not too early because then suddenly it's all about the money.
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:29.920
Yep.
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:58.400
Because also we're involved in projects that also involves IP of course so when that drops on the table the beauty is if you're working for certain publicly funded grants it's not a situation but we're having more now more interest on some sort of smaller topics that are key around material science, nanotechnology, biotech, these kind of things IP becomes a huge topic huge and you need to get it out immediately.
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:11.840
Yeah and there's no bigger room for let's trust each other so you've got to run with it but at the same time you've got to sort of be wary that this will rear its head and uh so far so good.
01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:17.360
I've had only one really bad experience that you just literally had to run away from and that's it.
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:18.800
You know it happens.
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:22.320
But it's best to sort of cut your losses if that's the case immediately.
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:24.159
Yeah and just forget about it moving on.
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:26.159
Yeah the sunk also sunk anyway.
01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:42.639
Yeah exactly yeah exactly and there's a lot of people out there in the world as well so it's you know this it's it's all about the people connect with the right people and I generally find that that generally is a good start and and follow your gut feeling you know that's sort of this is where age comes in.
01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:58.320
I wish I if I was younger you know I I would definitely listen to my heart rather you know too much to my head but then also knowing when to be more intelligent about it and less emotional but then flip it.
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:08.960
You know those are those the key drivers and on all levels and there is those different levels of intelligence that you you have the ability to tap into but you've got to trust it and feel it.
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:13.440
Yeah yeah and maybe that's the biggest challenge to know when to flip it.
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:15.199
Correct.
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:36.800
And this is why I try and I most nine times out of ten I have this double act because it's a husband and wife team it's a partnership we've been running for 20 years it's our investment it's our so having that for me is invaluable because you have this trust immediately between the two of you and then you have a different perspective.
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:48.960
And then again you need to by yourself that's that's that's that's a lot that's a lot depending on the size of the group and everything but some some manage it much better than others and others struggle.
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:50.239
It's just the way of life.
01:02:51.119 --> 01:03:02.559
And then again it needs another form of very good clear communication if there's also the personal relationship and the and the marriage being part of it.
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:20.079
That is a it's a lot of communication it's a lot of you know trust it's uh it's time together you know it's time when you're working with that person I hear of so many situations not just in facilitation or management but in companies where they fall down generally because of trust.
01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:29.039
Yeah that's what uh one says uh people join organizations because of the brand and the name and they leave because of the culture and the manager.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:31.679
What remains your facilitation challenge?
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:41.679
I would like to I am very much a believer in the world words of Nelson Mandela um and you know if you speak to someone in their language you speak to their heart.
01:03:42.719 --> 01:04:04.000
And I think that's living in Central Europe, being more involved in now projects that are also sort of expanding into Africa and you know more eastwards being able to actually not just be fluent in that language but to have some phrases and have some understandings of people's cultural language references is very, very useful.
01:04:04.480 --> 01:05:12.559
And living in Switzerland understanding you know speaking Italian and Spanish myself but also having that ability to understand the nuances of language bit German bit French whatever in where I'm immediately in yourself you know in in in the Benelux region it's very powerful that that really brings it into another level because you really do disconnect from the head and really go for the heart and that I find would be a wonderful tool to have more at my disposal um that's why I I repeat uh my wife is a person that speaks five languages so that whenever she has that at her disposal I am very thankful but also very jealous at the same time because I wish I could have that uh sort of like uh polyglot ability to learn because I find languages so difficult it's uh it's just not my my way I'm I'm more visual unless you know with words so that would be something I would love to have at my disposal because I think it's also a wonderful tool at very person.
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:23.199
Has it ever become a challenge then for you not to be able to this kind of mismatch not being able to communicate in other people's native language?
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:38.239
I've only experienced it once or twice ever uh hand no yeah handful of times where I've made a comment once or twice where I've been in an environment in Switzerland where the conversation has been led in Swiss German.
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:47.360
I'm just using as a context I'm not being specific in any way whatsoever but you do have certain dialects that are prevalent.
01:05:47.920 --> 01:06:02.960
When you have people in the room that are not from a particular region, be it a village or a a valley, because that's generally where it is just be mindful that Certain languages are languages for some and others aren't.
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:14.079
And I've had to turn around and say, you know, if it's in Hochdeutsch, and because it's in the context of my or our industry and our discussion, architecture, engineering, I can understand and I respect your language.
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.840
I do just be mindful that I will be responding in English.
01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:31.119
And the same in your region when I was there.
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.440
You know, there's sort of this mix of language.
01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:36.159
Certain cultures have these multra linguistics.
01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:40.079
And then let's not even get into you know India and Africa.
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:44.320
Yeah, how they mine for me that's incredible.
01:06:44.559 --> 01:06:48.320
But it's very much within the DNA of those regions.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:50.880
And it's very much of them.
01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:53.440
So these are things I'm mindful.
01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:55.280
So I've only ever had to do it once or twice.
01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:56.320
You know, just please.
01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:58.079
Otherwise, there's no point in me being here.
01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:00.559
And I'd rather not interrupt and just step out of the room.
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:02.320
Yeah, which makes sense.
01:07:03.519 --> 01:07:05.760
We've spoken for more than an hour.
01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:06.880
Is it that long?
01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:07.280
Yes.
01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:08.000
Wow.
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:09.760
I wasn't aware of that.
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.800
And we need to add the half an hour before.
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:13.840
It's always a pleasure.
01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:15.679
I really enjoyed it.
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:16.320
Yes.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:20.639
Is there anything that you would have wanted to share that we didn't touch upon?
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:21.280
Oh.
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:27.599
Um maybe if it's it's a book, because you uh you mentioned a book that I'm definitely get the title from.
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:40.960
One book that stood out to me, I was recommended it two years ago on the the power of storytelling and the powering of you know literally creating these Phil Rouges, these these connections between people.
01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:44.880
It's called Sand Talk, and it's by Tyson Yom Kapoor.
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:45.280
Yes.
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:47.280
And I've written a writer.
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:47.840
Yeah.
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:49.280
Wonderful, wonderful.
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:59.519
You know, learning from a you know, uh, you know, a tech basis and a scientific, but then connecting it back to his you know, native Aboriginal Australia.
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:04.960
And I really like that, that gradients of connecting it all together.
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:12.639
And I think there's a there's a necessity, and he uses the term uh it's called yarning, where you sort of weave things together.
01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:26.159
And I think this is something that I find myself trying to bring in because I think if you tell personal stories in a creative way, you really tend to get people sort of to to buy in.
01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:31.199
You sort of, it's a different way of looking at professionalism, you know, talking what we talked previously.
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:41.520
I think it it we need to also realize that it's it it is about people, and that's how I would thank you for reminding me because he agreed to come on the podcast.
01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:43.520
I'll listen to that one.
01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:55.359
I have to to refresh this uh slide in my highly recommend because that would be and Centalk is uh a beautiful book for facilitators to learn from the Aboriginal culture.
01:08:57.840 --> 01:08:58.239
Thank you.
01:08:58.399 --> 01:09:04.319
I always leave conversations with you with at least two or three book recommendations that are piling up in my living room.
01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:06.319
So I need to take a sabbatical now.
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.760
But as I say always, Miriam, always always to be continued.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:13.039
And I I look forward to our next conversation, wherever that may be.
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:19.600
And hopefully, with our work in uh in your region, we'll be there sooner rather than later, and vice versa.
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:24.399
You're always welcome to join us and visit us down here in Switzerland as well.
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:25.199
Thank you.
01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:26.000
Pleasure.
01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:26.800
Thank you.
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:27.920
Thank you.
01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:33.039
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end.
01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:48.640
I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for, and I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world.
01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:59.439
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01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:15.119
And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workshops.orgslash support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free.
01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:16.640
Thank you so much.
01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:20.239
I hope to be in your ears next week.
