24 - TruPolicing: How A Community-Oriented Approach Benefits Your Agency

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Trust, collaboration, and transparency.
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These are the cornerstones of public service.
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Whether it's policing, code enforcement, or local government, it's nearly impossible for public servants to do their job effectively if they don't have the trust of the people they serve and ultimately understand the cause and effect of problems that plague communities.
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Establishing a strategy based on collaboration and transparency is important not just for building safer communities, but for producing better outcomes for everyone involved.
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Community-oriented policing is not a new idea.
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It's been practiced in different iterations throughout human history.
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But in an age where misinformation is all around us, it's more important than ever to build trust and create productive dialogue with the citizens we serve, who are also our neighbors, so we can better develop effective solutions and policies.
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What is community-oriented policing?
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Why are more departments adopting it?
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How can it help areas like code enforcement stay tuned to learn more about the ins and outs of community-oriented policing?
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From Civic Along, this is TrueCode, a podcast explaining what code enforcement is, why our communities need it, and why you should care.
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From first-hand experiences, we discuss quality of life issues to reveal the truth about code enforcement.
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Today I am so honored to have a police chief and another podcaster, Chief Virgil Green, former Chief of Police, active podcaster, and host of You and the Law Podcast.
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And I will tell our listeners, I have watched several episodes of this.
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And I say watch because unlike us, where we don't put it on YouTube, uh, Chief does.
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And so uh thank you guys for having that podcast.
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And thank you, Chief, for joining us today.
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Hey, I'm glad to glad to be here and definitely honored for the uh for the invite.
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We're happy to have you.
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Very honored.
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So a little background on the Chief.
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Chief Virgil Green is a nationally recognized law enforcement executive with more than 26 years of progressive leadership, which I as I'm looking at you here, Chief, I find it hard to believe.
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You have 26 years under your belt.
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Hey, I don't look that old.
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You look great.
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Uh, but yes, more than two decades of experience in municipal policing, police uh work, public safety administration, security on college and other educational campuses, which I think is becoming increasingly vital, and organizational transformation.
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Uh, we are so honored to have someone with all these years of experience.
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And I think what's interesting, and we're gonna get into it here in a minute, is you have served in agencies across different states, including Oklahoma, Arkansas, Minnesota, uh, and along the way, you have really kind of perfected and moved forward the ball when it comes to community-oriented policing.
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And last but not least, very important, in 2011, uh Chief Green became the first African-American elected to the executive board of the Oklahoma Association of the Chiefs of Police.
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In 2013, he was selected as president of the Oklahoma City Metro Chiefs of Police Association.
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Uh, and as I mentioned, you have a wonderful podcast too.
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So, Chief, can we start right out the gate?
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Boley, Oklahoma.
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Can you tell us about this town?
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Because as I was sharing you with you before we got started here, I went down the rabbit hole and I encourage everybody to go down the rabbit hole on Boley, Oklahoma.
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But can you tell us a little about a little bit about the history of that town where you were the chief?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Boley, Oklahoma is about 65 miles uh east of Oklahoma City.
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It's a small rural black town.
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It is most known for the annual Bowley Rodeo, which happens Memorial Day weekend every year.
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And I have to tell you, man, it's a community of less than about 2,000 people.
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But on that Memorial Day weekend, they get probably over 20,000 people fit into that small of a rural town.
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It is just that well known.
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And a little history fact about it, um, for those who have watched episodes of uh Sanford and Sun and Flip Wilson, those guys would come from LA to Boley every year.
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And Flip Wilson actually donated a police car to the police department.
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And so it was just so much uh history there.
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And you know, I always wondered why would people from the West Coast travel all the way to a little small town in Oklahoma called Boley, Oklahoma, to a rodeo.
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But it was just the fact that it is the largest, the oldest and largest rodeo in the United States.
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It is something that continues to uh to build.
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And you know, I was a police chief there for 12 years.
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And um uh one of the things that I'm really proud of, uh, unfortunately, the town was hit by a tornado.
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Um, and we were able to build a new police department, and that building was the original building that was built in 1905.
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Wow.
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And so um decades later, we're able to build a new police department and uh you know continue on that that legacy of that community.
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So it is it is a community that um so many people, even in Oklahoma, really don't know about bowling.
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Um it's right in the middle of Oklahoma City, uh, and it's also in the middle of Tulsa, Oklahoma.
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So you get people from Tulsa, Oklahoma who come in uh Oklahoma City and just all around the country.
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So it is it is a community that continues to uh it has faced a lot of adversity, but is a community that will not go away because you have a lot of people there who want to continue that history.
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And Pretty Boy Floyd and his gang came to Bole and Rob tried to rob a bank.
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I I I'm kind of feeling like uh I think Brian's looking up flights over there right now.
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Uh it's it's like a really interesting place.
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But you also mentioned uh a black town.
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What now in here from California, that's not something we hear very often.
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What is the significance of that?
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What does that mean?
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It is so bowly is probably uh, you know, in Oklahoma, uh back in the Indian Territory, there was a lot of uh Oklahoma probably had more black towns than any uh state in the United States.
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Uh and and now there's probably just a handful, but Boley is one that continues to thrive, uh, continues to progress.
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And so um it just like I said, it has so much history to it.
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And that's why a lot of people come.
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I mean, to see the bank still stands, um where Pretty Boy Floyd and his gangs tried to come in and rob the bank.
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But again, it's just the the culture of the community, and it's it is so inviting, and it's just not uh a black rodeo.
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I mean, you've got people of all demographics who come to Boley uh just to see what this town is about, and they walk away uh with the sense of just like, hey, now we're a part of uh of this small rural town.
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And that's that's one of the things that that uh I like about it.
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And as I was sharing with you before we came on, you know, I was uh born and raised in a city in New Mexico called Hobbes, New Mexico.
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And a couple of years later, after becoming a police chief, uh uh talking to the judge and the mayor who are both sisters, uh, they were like, hey, we uh you're from Hobbes, and I'm like, yeah.
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And they're like, oh my God, we had people who would come to Hobbes to the Bowley Rodeo, and they show me some pictures, and I was like, man, I know that person.
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So it's a small world we live in.
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And to know that here I am, born and raised in New Mexico, come to Oklahoma, here I am, the police chief of a town that people would come to celebrate uh a black rodeo during Memorial Day weekend, just blew my mind.
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And the fact that I was a part of that history is outstanding.
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That's pretty cool.
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There is so much history in parts uh the maps of our country that we just we fly over.
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We don't even think about, we don't even see.
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But I love the small town stuff.
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I was actually uh born in an island off of San Diego, and uh everybody knew each other.
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And if there was a crime, they would shut down the bridge.
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That was the only entrance to and from the city.
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So Nika.
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And the other, the other, all the other way you could go, you had to get past a Navy SEAL base.
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So you really weren't going that direction if you were a criminal.
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Yeah.
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So are you talking about Coronado Island?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I tell you what, every time that there is a police chief conference to go to San Diego, I'm I'm I'm signing up because Carnada Island is one of my favorite places to to to visit.
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Uh, I've walked from the hotel down to to the beach.
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And uh so so yeah, I definitely know the community that you're talking about.
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Give me a call.
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We'll we'll go to one of my favorite restaurants down there.
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Oh, okay.
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Hey, man, I love Mexican food.
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And so I found several good places on several visits there.
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So I definitely will.
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Oh, I got a place for you.
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Yeah, that's okay.
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Um, so kind of going back in time here, how did you get into policing in the first place?
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I come from a family of uncles who are in law enforcement.
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Um, and my uncle, in in where I grew up in Hobbes, he was uh on the Hobbes Police Department.
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And so at the probably 10 years old, he got me involved with the police explorers, and I would do ride-alongs with him.
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And here I am in the car with him trying to operate the radio, turn the lights and soris on, and and uh so it's just something that kind of grew on me.
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And so I, you know, grew up playing sports, basketball and track and football.
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And so I I thought I just had a a career going into playing professional sports, but had a couple of knees, knee injuries, and that kind of derailed that.
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And so I ended up uh my uncle got me my first job working for the Lee County Sheriff's Office um in back home in Hobbes.
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And so I did that for a couple of years and ended up moving to Oklahoma and uh got in the private sector for a little while and then got back into the um to law enforcement a couple of years later.
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So that's how kind of I got into law enforcement basically because I, you know, my uncle was somebody who I looked up to uh and uh had an uncle, two uncles out in California who were in law enforcement as well.
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So it was just something that our family has been a part of, and here I am, you know, decades later, still a part of it.
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I love it.
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Yeah, local government um it tends to draw from different generations of folks.
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Uh I'm I'm my dad is a retired city manager, so I grew up.
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My birthday parties were nothing but other city managers and council members and mayors and you know, the occasional kid would straggle into my birthday parties as a kid.
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And, you know, my good buddy from Texas was a cop out there, and uh his parents were cops.
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And it's interesting to me.
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I hear this so many times in this podcast and from people just at our own firm that we work with here who are like, oh yeah, I'm in this because my parent was in this, and this because my uncle was in this.
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I mean, I wonder what it is about seeing your family members do local government that attracts people to it.
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Well, it, you know, I think it it has to come from a uh a sense of community, a service, giving back to your community.
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And I think, you know, once you get involved in this uh field, you definitely see where you're able to give back to the community.
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And for me, that's what it's been about for the last over 20, you know, 26 plus years is being able to give back to the communities that I've been fortunate to serve in as a police chief.
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Wonderful.
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Yeah, I think for all the all the daily talk and worry about what happens at the state level and federal government level, the real stuff happens at the local level.
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That's where the streets are paved and the parks are built, and that's who you're calling when you have issues.
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Exactly.
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You know, and I think a lot of people, you know, when your water doesn't come on, who do you call?
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You're gonna call the city, you're gonna say, hey, why is my water off?
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I know I paid my bill.
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And so again, it's all about uh cities providing the best service that they can, uh, from public safety all the way down to to just regular utilities and public works.
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And so that is something that I have always tried to do in the positions of being a police chief, is to make sure that we are providing the best service that we can.
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And I look at it from a sense that we are, you know, our citizens are our customer service.
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Right.
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And I think you don't see you don't see a lot of that in in in municipal government where municipal government does not look at the citizens as these are our customers.
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They just look at them as hey, these are our residents, but you have to have a a sense of customer service when because we're we are providing a service to the community.
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Public servant.
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I mean, that's the title.
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You're you're serving your public.
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And if you're living in that community, you're serving your neighbors and your own family, potentially.
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Exactly.
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And and you know, I've always said, you know, if if your water isn't working, uh if your water is working and your neighbor's water isn't working, what does that say?
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People feel like you're entitled because, oh, well, you work for the city, so they're gonna make sure your water stays on.
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But I've got a league, so they turn my water off.
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So again, we got to make sure we're looking at it from a stand, from a standpoint that we all are we're just a part of a community, and how do we make sure that everybody has the same quality of service that even the elected officials have?
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Absolutely.
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So I think that's probably a good lead-in point too.
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You become a chief, and uh did you immediately start turning to community-oriented policing?
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I mean, had you heard of it before?
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How did you come across it and why was it of of importance?
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So, you know, when I came to Boley in in 2000, it was, I mean, actually 1999.
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Um it was, it was a, like I said, a small community.
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And I really wanted to, how do you bring in community policing to a community that was like, what is community policing?
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And so uh because of that annual rodeo, I felt like how do we connect with people who are coming into the community and also connect to the community and surrounding communities?
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And so I just started reaching out to elected officials and other people in the community and saying, hey, you know, how can we bring in um national night out?
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You know, I'm pretty sure you've heard of national night out like everybody else has.
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And people are like, Well, we're too small of a community.
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I'm thinking, okay, well, you when you think small, you're gonna act small.
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And so for me, it was just because you're a community less than 2,000 people, doesn't mean we can't do national night out.
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And so we did our first national night out in um uh a year after I became the police chief, and I reached out to the lieutenant governor and said, Hey, we're gonna have national night out, would you come?
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And she was like, sure.
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And the the mayor and the judge was like, How did you pull that off?
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And I'm just like, hey, I just reached out.
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Uh, you know, who's gonna say yeah, who's gonna say no to a police chief?
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And so we ended up uh getting other surrounding communities, they brought their boys, the Boy Scouts out.
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Uh, I had, you know, bluebell ice cream, donate ice cream.
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And so people were just like, wow.
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And so for me, that was my starting point to how do you build community policing into policing and how do you make it to where people feel welcome?
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And so, you know, the point uh of community night out, as I understand it, Chief, correct me if I'm wrong, is to bring everybody out.
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It's to bring people in the community, out into the community, because we're kind of huddled in our own phones and spaces right now, but you bring everybody out businesses, public service, moms, dads, residents, everybody.
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Yeah.
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And that's what's important.
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And I think a lot of, you know, when you get into bigger cities, you have uh HOAs who host national night out, you have other organizations.
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But when you're from a small community, you have to figure out a way to really bring everybody together.
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And what that looks like is somebody is saying, hey, I will cook the barbecue, I'll, you know, I'll bring this dish or I'll bring this dish.
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And so it just people were like, now you're looking at it from a family standpoint, like a family reunion.
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And and so uh we did that for all 12 years that I was there.
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And I have to say this, that when I uh got selected to be a police chief in the Ocoma City metro area, uh the judge and mayor and a lot of people in the community is like, so what are we gonna do now?
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And I was like, Well, I can always come back.
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And they were like, hey, that's great.
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And so uh I ended up going back a couple of years helping out with the uh with the events, so so it was uh it was good.
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Yeah.
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That's wonderful.
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Um so what about community-oriented policing?
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How would you how would you define community-oriented policing?
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And uh I guess, yeah, what is it?
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How would you describe it?
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So community-oriented policing to me is just bringing in everybody collectively.
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And uh and first of all, it really starts with educating the officers about what is community policing.
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Uh, because if the officers don't really understand what community policing is, you're gonna have a hard time convincing them this is why they should get out and participate in some of these events.
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And so that's where it really starts at is the educational piece and talking about what community policing is.
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And I have to say this, uh a lot of people, you know, it's like a slogan.
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Hey, we're doing community policing, but what really is community policing, you know, uh, and it's not just a deal for the police chief or the command staff to show up for a photo op.
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You really have to embed yourself in that community uh or in those neighborhoods to really uh for to build that trust.
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And and that's another piece of it for the people to really trust you and not to just think, oh, well, you're just doing this here to to get your picture in the paper or something like that.
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Yeah.
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I mean, is is it an example of community-oriented policing, like some of the articles we read where a police officer will run across some kids who shouldn't be where they are, and maybe they get out of their car and they engage with them and they talk with them.
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You see the videos sometimes of like a cop will pull some dance moves with some guys or maybe shoot a few hoops with them.
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Is it that kind of thing, like embedding yourself within the groups that you're coming across?
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It is.
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And it especially in in the black, in in in the minority communities, because uh everybody wants good policing.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:46.559
Uh, but what they want is police officers to to really feel like they're a part of the community.
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:56.160
And and so when you see police officers, you know, stopping and playing basketball with kids in the neighborhood or playing soccer with them, that's that's community policing.
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:58.480
That's really putting yourself in the community.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:14.160
And, you know, I've I've encouraged my officers to, hey, if you s if you're driving down the street and you see a senior citizen trying to get some groceries out of the car, stop and help her or him get get the groceries in the house.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:21.039
And you'd be surprised at the response you would get from from the community when you do stuff like that.
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:35.200
And so uh I I had uh some officers who did that, and uh a day later a lady showed back up at the police department with with a with a uh a box of cookies that she had baked, and they were like, oh wow.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.559
And I said, so see, that's that's what people really want to see.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.039
Uh just getting out helping the community.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:42.240
That's wonderful.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:49.279
Now you mentioned, uh Chief, that community-oriented policing is particularly important in minority communities.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.039
Why why is that the case?
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.640
Because you you know, a lot of it is all about enforcement.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.000
And and again, it's not about connecting with the community.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:04.559
And oftentimes you don't see police officers who are from those communities working in those communities.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.359
You see them coming in from the suburb cities.
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.039
So they don't really have a sense of connecting to the communities.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:20.400
And I think that's that's what's missing is the fact that you don't see a lot of police officers growing up in those communities coming back to work in those communities.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:29.599
And so and oftentimes people wonder, is it really genuine that you see a police officer out there cleaning the playgrounds with the kids?
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.240
Is there some other alternative motive?
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:41.839
And and I have to, you know, tell officers, uh, especially if you're uh a white officer, hey, black people they they like feeding people.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:51.440
If you like to eat, hey, on a on a good summer day, if you see some smoke in somebody's backyard, stop because I guarantee you're gonna get a good plate of barbecue.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.880
That's great.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.359
Yeah, it's funny how many different cultures, you know.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh the my Mexican family, they love they love making sure you eat a bunch of food, the down.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:00.799
Yeah.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.640
It's a we all agree on food.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:03.759
We all agree on food.
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:04.960
Some kind of food.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:12.960
And exactly, you know, and and when I was a police chief in the Oklahoma City Metroid, I would get out on a Saturday and my wife is like, where are you going?
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.640
I'm like, oh, I'm just from the ghost suspense, just to drive around and see what's going on.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:23.200
And and next thing I know, I'm I I see some smoke coming up, or I see a family, you know, out front in the yard.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:29.440
And I would stop and the officers were, they kind of thought I was out sneaking, you know, kind of sneaking on them.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.079
And I was like, no, I'm just out trying to see what's going on.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.279
And they would pull up two or three cars deep, thinking, oh man, the chief is in trouble.
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:38.960
I'm like, hey, man, I'm over here eating.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.680
I'm having a good time.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.960
You're having a plate of barbecue.
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:41.519
You're the alpha.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.200
Hey, I'm having a plate of barbecue.
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:48.240
I gotta, I got a a good, a good, some good Mexican food or or whatever it may be.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:56.720
And so again, I think that's just what it's all about is that people see who you are and and and it's it's all about building relationships.
00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:09.599
And that's what my uh goal is always being is to uh to build those relationships into uh and when I do leave those agencies, that's something that continues on within those police departments.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:18.400
And so, I mean, to someone who might listen to this and think, yeah, that all sounds well and good, but you know, there's a lot of people hating on police officers right now.
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:27.680
It'd be dangerous for me to get out of my car, or I don't have the time uh, you know, to get out of my car and go check with these people and go to barbecues, whatever it may be.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.599
What do you have to say to those folks?
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.200
You have to make the time.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:36.240
You know, I tell everybody this is yeah, it's a very stressful position.
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:52.079
Uh, you're running from call to call, but in between those times, instead of you going to a local McDonald's or restaurant or somewhere else with a group of other police officers, get connected with people in the community.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:57.759
And and so, because at the end of the day, that's who's gonna be there to really help you.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.480
And so uh, and I think again, um you you really have to make that a priority.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:10.720
And I think a lot of uh police departments, some do a really a very good job and some don't.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:33.359
And I think when you try to find excuses and say, well, man, I'm going from call to call, call to call, and I don't have time, well, if you can make time to to go hang out with your buddies for a couple hours to eat, you can definitely make time to to stop in the neighborhood where some kids are playing on the playground and get out and just introduce yourself to them and to their families.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:41.200
And I think that's that goes a long way with when we really are talking about what is community policing, what is what does that look like.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:41.759
Yeah.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:25:08.880
And I mean, in terms of hard dividends, hard returns, I mean, it seems to me that you've now got uh the next time you go and maybe you have to roll up on some guys who are actually causing a problem, if they know you already, you're probably gonna have a better chance at getting the compliance you need, and you're gonna have less of a chance of uh a really negative interaction because people just statistically are less likely to be violent with people that they know outside of certain domestic situations.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:09.759
Exactly.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:24.000
And I think that's another key thing of it is that even when you have to make an arrest or you have to enforce something, you know, you may roll up to the park and it's, you know, 11 o'clock at night and the park's supposed to closed at 10 o'clock.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:28.559
And now you're saying, hey, you gotta leave the park, and they're like, oh man, we're just having a good time.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:37.279
If you really, if they know you and you know them, you're gonna say, okay, listen, as long as we don't get any calls, go ahead and play into midnight.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.079
And I think that's what goes a long way because now people are saying, hey, you're pretty cool.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.920
You're real easy to get along with.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.599
Or you may just hang out there for an hour and shoot some hoops.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:26:04.799
And uh you may get a little sweaty, but at the same time, you you built some relationships with some people that was not expecting you to uh to bend some of the rules that typically another officer would say, absolutely not, you gotta go.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:09.599
And now you've got another officer who is doing just the opposite.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:24.960
And so that's what, again, is it no matter what community in, where you're in a black community, Latino community, or you know, Asian community, people just want to know that you're somebody that they can trust and somebody that they can communicate to.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:26.240
Yeah, amen.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:27.359
Absolutely to that.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:34.960
And you might end up that could be a recruit, you know, uh, tough situations, tough neighborhoods can be a recruiting ground for good or bad.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:42.319
And so in that experience, you might be finding yourself molding the next police officer uh because they see, you know what, that guy's actually pretty cool.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.799
I want to be like him and I want to help my community.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.319
That is that actually has happened to me, uh, being a police chief and and just, you know, communicating with kids in the community.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.839
And, you know, a couple of years later, I had a kid walk in and say, Hey, uh, I want to be a police officer.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:59.920
And I'm like, Yeah, you got a couple more years.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.880
He ended up graduating high school and uh and and came back in and said, Hey, I'm 21.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.799
And I'm like, hey, you know what?
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:18.400
Since you've been this persistent, I will put you through uh a reserve academy that's gonna lead you to becoming a full-time police officer.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:26.480
And and that was one of the things that his his mom, because he came from a single family home, that his mom was just like, wow, I just can't believe it.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:27.920
That's wonderful.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.880
And it has generational impacts too, which is wonderful.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:44.799
So, you know, in code enforcement, kind of kind of tying in code enforcement here a bit, um, did you have experience dealing with code enforcement, sometimes called code compliance, neighborhood preservation, uh, in your in your time in the police departments?
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.839
Oh, definitely.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:53.359
Uh we've, you know, for in open, especially in Oklahoma, code enforcement fell under the police chief's uh umbrella.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:04.319
Uh so we had a code enforcement officer, and and one of the things that I always tried to do was try to understand what was the job, what was the role of the code enforcement.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:24.079
Um, and and you know, if it's, you know, talk about somebody with high grass or, you know, hey, they've got a bunch of tires piled up somewhere, how do you get somebody to to kind of clean up their properties, but at the same time, do it to where it's not, it doesn't cause a burden on that, on that person.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:32.000
And I think for me, it was always finding out are there some things that are preventing somebody from keeping their property up?
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:35.200
Is it because they're on a fixed income?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:41.680
And and had a code enforcement officer who would come in and say, Chief, man, I can never get them to do anything.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:43.759
And I said, Hey, let's go out and talk to them.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.000
So I get went out and talked to them.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.079
And their response was, we just don't have the money.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.839
And I said, Hey, I know some people at a local church.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.200
If I can get some volunteers to come over here and help you clean up this here, will you be okay with that?
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.079
And they were just like blown away.
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.200
So I reached out to some friends and local church.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:06.880
They came over and cleaned up the property.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.640
And the code enforcement officer was kind of like, How did you do that?
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.119
And I said, the same thing I did, you could have done.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:26.799
It's all just about communicating with people and finding out what's going on and what what are the needs that this that this resident is trying to, why they are not able to fix whatever we're trying to get them to bring up to to Cahu.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:50.960
So, Chief, is that another example of not just community-oriented policing and code enforcement, kind of connecting the dots and putting resources in the hands people need it, but also an example of where if you've already been doing community-oriented policing, it actually comes back to help you because, for example, National Nine Out or any other situation that you refer into, Chief, you might have met these church folk or you might be going to that church.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:51.359
Who knows?
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:58.319
And you know that they want to do something good, and then you pair them up with someone you find the community who maybe doesn't know they're out there.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:10.240
And again, I think, you know, when we use when you look at the word code enforcement, it's the enforcement piece of it that everybody gets kind of hung up on and say, we have to enforce this.
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:22.720
Yeah, we do, but at the same time, there has to be a reason for somebody not able to keep their their property up to code or or if it's a business, what's going on with that business.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:39.759
And we need to really kind of find out how we can really help them instead of issuing them a citation, having them go before a judge, and and ultimately, if a j they go before a judge, now a judge is gonna say, Well, I gotta either it, you know, here's a fine.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:46.720
Now that person has to figure out how to pay the fine plus get their property up to code.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:57.279
And and so I've always looked at it, how can we again it kind of goes back to being this public servant, how can we really serve the public without really enforcing?
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:09.440
Now, there are some times where you really do have to enforce some things, but at the same time, when you do that, people are gonna respect you because you've tried to work with them along the way to get some things done.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:28.000
And it in reality, you say, listen, you have to go before the judge and you have to figure out a way, but now people will have a lot more respect for you because you've really tried to help them instead of trying to uh put some type of additional cost that they really can't afford.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:36.160
Yeah, uh, sometimes you're going backwards with the fines when they're already struggling, if finances are the issue, which they are for a lot of people these days.
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.079
You're you're kind of going backwards.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:45.680
But I love that idea, you know, wielding the the power of government is incredibly strong.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.000
The government power is incredibly strong, and it has to be because it's got to be for the greater good.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:55.039
But to enforce it literally is missing the point.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.400
The point's compliance.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.759
And so you've got to use the law to get that, to get that cooperation, to get that help.
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:02.799
And I agree with you.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.400
I I have always viewed it like a funnel.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.000
At the top of the funnel, you kind of just get all the complaints that code enforcement gets.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.400
And then in that funnel, it kind of narrows down.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:17.200
You know, some people are dropping off because you've hooked them up with the church that can help them out, or some other group, or you're able to go out and help them, or whatever it is.
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:18.799
Maybe they need an extension of time.
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.240
Maybe they need your help finding family members who can help them out, that kind of stuff.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:32.559
And then really at the bottom of the funnel, like the ones that come across my desk as a lawyer for uh as a city prosecutor, are the ones where the people have just been like, I'm just not gonna comply.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.359
Or it's another problem that is unsolvable.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:36.720
So I I agree with you.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:41.359
It's like when I go in front of a judge, I see the same judges over and over again.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:48.960
Even in a state with 40 million people, they want to know, hey Matt, even if you didn't have to, did you try to get these other things?
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.640
Because if you did, then I'll back you up on the law.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.799
If you didn't, what are you doing here?
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:56.079
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:57.359
Give an example.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:13.599
Uh when I was a police chief in in uh Golden Valley uh in in Minnesota, there was this property who they just had a uh uh a continued problem of just not complying with the code enforcement.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.319
And there was no code enforcement person.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:27.440
It was the fire actually it surprised me coming from Oklahoma, uh being a police chief and also being in Arkansas, where I was used to having code enforcement uh under the police department.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:32.480
Here was a municipality that didn't, and the fire department took care of their code.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.839
And I was like, huh, that's a little that's different.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:42.480
And and it and mainly in a lot of cities that I found out in Minnesota, that's kind of how they operated.
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:47.279
It became an issue because the property owner had an issue with the city.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.720
They had an issue with the with the uh fire department.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:57.279
And I said, okay, well, maybe there's something I canbe I can churn my way into trying to get some some resolution.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.799
And I went out and talked to the property owner, and I could tell that he he was he had enough of the city.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.680
He was just like, I don't care what they do.
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.719
They can find me, I'm not gonna blah, blah, this and all that.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.079
And I was just like, wow.
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:19.679
So I said, hey, listen, is there any way I can get you to just do one thing and then we can work on the other?
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:20.159
Right.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.599
And the first thing he asked me was like, you must not be from around here.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:25.199
I was like, no, I'm from Oklahoma.
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.400
He's like, How did you come from Oklahoma to Minnesota?
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:33.119
And I'm like, hey, I'm still trying to figure it out too, because it's way too cold up here.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:44.320
And and and this was a situation where we're in the we're in winter, and it's like 20 degrees outside, and I'm like, listen, man, I I don't like the cold weather.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.840
I'm pretty sure you're used to it.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:53.280
And so we had a joke about it, and he was just like, you know what, Chief, uh I'll do it.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.440
And so I went back to the fire chief and told her, and she was just like, This guy will not budge on anything.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:11.840
And you actually got him, and I just said, I just need you to move these tires and put them somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind, but at least at some point you gotta move them.
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:19.679
And he was just like, they were just like amazed that this guy even had that small amount of compliance.
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:25.679
But what I ended up doing was just I kept going by there, talking to him, getting to know him.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.760
And again, he had a long-running feud with the city.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:36.320
And and some of those things you try to fix, and some people won't budge, and uh, but he he did.
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:41.039
And so again, it just kind of goes back to communicating with people.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:50.000
And oftentimes it just takes a different voice, a different phase and a different voice to to get people to actually try to comply.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:36:04.000
And uh, but at the end of the day, like you, like you know, I mean, yeah, some people are gonna end up before a judge, and the judge is gonna make a ruling, and unfortunately, it may not be what everybody wants, but that's just kind of how things work.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:04.559
Right.
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:13.280
Yeah, we do have backup systems for uh when we get into an impasse and we can't solve it, we do have the process, but that shouldn't be the first stop.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:16.800
Everything you just mentioned, Chief, kind of reminds me of two different episodes we had.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:36.960
We had one uh on hoarding with one of the uh folks for the TV show hoarders, and he was talking about, and of course, I'd watched a bunch of episodes on it um leading up to that episode, and he was saying, you know, so much of the job is just kind of getting understanding what caused them to hoard in the first place, and then trying to talk them through it.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:43.280
Because if you go in and just do the hard approach where you just take all their stuff, it's just gonna come back and it's just a meltdown.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:43.840
It's awful.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.800
And then our other guy, uh, we had a code manager, Seminole County, Florida, and he was talking about how, you know, he would drive down the street and he had this one particular person who just would not comply, and he finally just knocked on her door, sat down with her, and just got to know her.
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:02.719
And he got compliance.
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:10.800
And it's like on the government side, I gotta scratch my head when I hear people want to pick a fight with City Hall and say I'm just not gonna do it because they will lose every time.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:17.599
But people just want to be heard sometimes and feel like, you know what, I am a person with feelings and I have rights too.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:21.119
Well, and I, you know, and that's the same thing with this property owner.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:26.079
He's like, you know, I'm paying, I'm paying my taxes, I'm paying a water bill, I'm doing all these things.
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:27.760
Why are you harassing me?
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:29.039
Leave me alone.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:38.719
And and, you know, and I have to say this, you really cannot be in municipal government, you cannot be selective on who you want to enforce code enforcement on.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.119
Right.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:58.000
When you drive down the street and you see, if there's an ordinance that says no cars are supposed to be parked on a grass, but then you drive down the street and you see multiple cars with cars parked on the grass, but then on the other side of town, you're enforcing that, but you're not enforcing it on the other side of town.
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:07.119
And people pay attention to that because people will come back and say, Well, hey, I drove over here on this street, you're not doing anything, but why are you over here harassing me?
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:07.440
Right.
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:20.239
And so you that's one thing that municipal government really needs to make sure that you're not doing if you got code enforcement or whoever is taking care of that, is don't be select, treat everybody the same way.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.119
There's circumstance, different circumstances for different people.
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:33.280
So uniform and fair application of the law, uh, without regard to obviously greed, color, where you are in the neighborhood, that kind of stuff.
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:38.159
Um, and then I heard as well, get into the community, of course, and get to know folks.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:46.639
And then I heard pair up the need with the resources, uh, and then just good old-fashioned talking to people and building relationships.
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.760
Are there any other tips, Chief, for an agency that's listening that might want to try to implement some of these community-oriented policing strategies?
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:57.199
You know, I've always say, don't reinvent the wheel.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:03.920
Just see what somebody else is doing in their communities and just do the same thing that they're doing.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:15.920
But the main thing is just really getting to know and talk to people because once you get to do that, people will be like, hey, yeah, I mean, now you you'll wonder why people are inviting you over for coffee.
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:17.679
Yeah, sure.
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:19.039
Right, absolutely.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.639
Uh, where can people go to not reinvent the wheel?
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:29.840
Where could someone go to find example of like a police uh community-oriented policing policy or strategy?
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:36.880
You know, I think, you know, it in this profession of law enforcement, just really kind of reaching out to the police chief saying, hey, what are you doing is right?
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:45.039
And and uh and making sure that how can you kind of come in and offer that same service to that community.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.599
So I think it's just really just networking and and finding out how you can really help those help that community out.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.800
Yeah, great point.
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:53.360
Reach out.
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.559
I mean, speaking of reaching out, reach out to other colleagues about that stuff.
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:09.199
Also, the Department of Justice has had a uh uh and the Bureau of Justice Assistants has had a cops paper out there for a long time about community-oriented, community cops meaning community-oriented policing strategies.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.440
They've had out there for for quite a while.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.800
So people check that out.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.199
I think it's got a list of stuff that they could do too.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:16.400
Yeah, definitely.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.079
Again, there's a lot of resources out there.
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:30.480
I think you just really have to just really look for those resources and and also again, just networking and finding out what's working in the neighboring community and how you can partner with each other uh to do the same thing.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:40.960
Again, that's just something that we we kind of get into our own little bubble in policing where we really don't want to branch out in because it's kind of like it's an ownership bill.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:48.960
If we're doing it, we don't want nobody else to steal our secret, but it's not really a secret because again, somebody else was doing it somewhere else.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:56.880
So you got to be able to to bring that and let and share it with everybody else because at the end of the day, uh it's all about helping each other.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.320
No, that's a great point.
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:05.760
And if you're a police officer or you're a code officer, eventually you might be the boss in one of the other jurisdictions that uh borrowed your info too.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.960
So that's good to share.
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:08.719
Chief, last question for you.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:16.960
If whether it's code enforcement or policing, if you could snap your fingers and change one thing, what would it be?
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:23.119
It would be how do you get people to understand what municipal government is about?
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:33.519
And and and and really to get people to uh have a sense of you know what policing is is is about and why some of the things happen.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:42.960
But at the same time, I think it's just really uh uh about putting police officers in the best position to be good public servants in their communities.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.920
And and so that that really goes a long way.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:52.960
Because again, you you've seen since the death of George Floyd, so many people have a distrust for police.
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.199
And I think how do you rebuild that trust?
00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:02.400
And that that's all about getting out, talking to people, getting out, changing what people really think about policing.
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:15.039
Uh, because everybody wants good policing, but they want fair and equitable policing and not to be where we're coming in with a heavy hand to enforce ordinances and laws in our communities.
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:27.519
So it's really about, you know, just changing that perspective of what people are looking at policing about, and uh and just really kind of going back to the grassroots of what community policing is about.
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.000
Getting out of your cars, talking to people, walking up and down the streets.
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:42.639
Uh and so, you know, if I was able to do that and and everybody would say, hey, I've got the best police department in the in the country, I think a lot of people would really appreciate that.
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:44.239
Well, that's that's wonderful.
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:45.519
I I couldn't agree more.
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:55.440
I mean, the relationships and good old-fashioned, actual, honest relationships are uh that's the antidote probably for all the problems we're facing in a society right now.
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.119
Put down your phone, get out of your car, go talk to people, shake hands.
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:00.559
You never know they'll come back.
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.719
Chief, it's been just a pleasure.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:04.559
It's been a great conversation chat with you.
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.599
I feel like we could keep going on forever on this, but uh we can't.
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.159
And so I I so appreciate what you're doing.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:18.960
And you know, you're I think what we heard here today was a living example of the community-oriented policing model put into play.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:23.599
So, and in multiple states, multiple different circumstances.
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.920
Uh I I really appreciate the perspective you bring and what you've been doing.
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:29.679
Thank you for your public service.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:37.199
Well, I appreciate the the invitation and be able to share with you and your listeners about, you know, what community policing should really look like.
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:45.199
And even when you look at the code enforcement side of it, how code enforcement really should play a major role in community policing.
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:54.719
Uh, and and and for people to really feel a sense of, yeah, I I do, there's some things I need to get right, but at the same time, how do you go in and help some people?
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:06.000
Uh, and you'll find out that people uh they're not gonna say no to help, uh, but they just want a good, honest uh conversation with people and to be treated fairly.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:07.039
Absolutely.
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.079
So our guest today has been Chief Virgil Green.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.320
Thank you uh so much, Chief, for being with us.
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:18.159
You know, code enforcement is the tip of the spear a lot of times for uh community involvement.
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:24.639
Sometimes people, the only interaction they've had with their local government outside of the police uh is code enforcement.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.280
And so it's so important to think a big picture.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:35.760
I think community-oriented policing has not just a role in code enforcement, but a lot of you are already living it out there who are doing it.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:39.119
You just don't know that it's called community-oriented policing.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:43.599
For the rest of us, uh, there's more to do, and there's always more ideas.
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:48.719
There's no, there's no book that's the final chapter on what community-oriented policing should involve.
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:54.239
Uh, it's something that we're always adding on to because there's always new relationships, new ideas, and new solutions.
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:56.320
So, Chief, once again, thank you very much.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.360
And thank you to our listeners for joining us here on the True Code podcast.
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.480
Stay tuned for the next episode coming to you soon.
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:07.119
Thank you for joining us on this journey.
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.039
If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now.
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:14.559
Until next time,