Tali: And today we are so thrilled to sit down with literary agent extraordinaire Kate McKean. Kate is an agent at Howard Morheim Literary Agency, and she's been a literary agent since 2006. Her clients include New York Times bestsellers and national bestsellers like Alex E. Harrow, Madeline Rue, Claudia Gere, Joy Callaway, and Lee Mandelo. As well as award-winning authors like Bobby Finger, Isaac Felman, Danny Lavery, Chang Ling Yuan, and many more. Kate is also an author of fiction, nonfiction, and more. Her work has appeared in Poets and Writers, Electric Literature, Catapult, Lit Hub, Writer's Digest, Bustle, and many more. Her first book, Write Through It, An Insider's Guide to Publishing and Their Creative Life, is out now from Simon Element. In twenty twenty six, Sourcebooks will publish her debut picture book Pay Attention to Me.
Lauren Khan: Well, hello, Kate. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Kate McKean: I'm so glad to be here.
Lauren Khan: Awesome. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. We are your biggest fans as agents, as authors. We've been looking up to you in the industry for a long time. you just have so much to offer us and I would just love to kick things off by knowing how you found your way into this wild and crazy industry we call publishing.
Kate McKean: man, we have to go back to the wilds of the late 1990s, when I was in college, the very late nineties, and I was at the University of Florida, and my sister, who is a very very smart person, wasn't publishing at the time, and she's like, I get the vibe that you don't want to be a high school English teacher. Like, no shade at all. Like I would have been fine being an English teacher, but I hadn't I was getting an English degree, and she's like, What are you gonna do with your life? And she said, you should get an internship at the University Press at your college, at the University Press of Florida. And I usually do what she says. And so I did. And then I just started learning about this thing, this weird thing called publishing. And I started reading a newsletter called Publishers Lunch, which had lunch, which has had just started. And I started reading about literary agents. And I was like, who are these weirdos? And I somehow knew when I was like 19 years old that being a literary literary agent would mean that I didn't have to sit in meetings all day and that I might not have to live in New York City my whole life to work in publishing because I knew at that point that, you know, most of publishing, but not all, is in New York. and that I could have a lot of control over my day to day. You know, just and I don't know how I knew that. Like I really don't and and all of that kind of came true in pursuing this career. And though I still live in New York like twenty five years later, which I love and I'm happy that's the way it turned out. I was kinda right about the rest of the stuff and it may be the only perfectly right decision I've ever made in my life. I don't know. It just worked out.
Tali: That's amazing. And I think that, you
Lauren Khan: That's
Tali: know, there's something about agenting that if it is the right choice for you, it feels right. Like Lauren and I both came from law and you know,
Kate McKean: Wow. Yeah.
Tali: giving up the legal practice and becoming an agent just feels right. It feels like the right move. So I don't know what it is about the industry, but it's phenomenal and Can you
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: take us through your journey in terms of agenting, maybe touching on some of the big things you've learned since you started?
Kate McKean: yeah. so after I graduated undergrad and I worked at the University of Press of Florida for a year as an editorial assistant. So I did that little that little d dance too. I went to the University of Southern Mississippi to get my MFA and I was like, I'm gonna be a writer because I always did o want to be a writer and I got to do that. I get to do that too. but I also knew I needed a a job job. So I go write for not quite two years and I was like, wait, I wanna be a grown-up. with a job and not a student anymore. So I packed my bags, I drove to New York City and I got the a job as the assistant to seven literary agents at the same time, which is like a thing no one should ever do. And
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: they it was kind of bonkers. They all shared office space in Manhattan. And I got to see seven different agents do the job seven different ways. And Even just in the short time I was an assistant, like the two years I was an assistant, I was like, wait, you can do this job so many different ways. You can be really focused on the line and the sentence, or you can go after big people, big name people in magazines, or you know, just all these different ways. And I just kind of like picked the little things that I wanted to tuck away and then got to use them later in my whole career. Like having the confidence to go email and and well yeah it's just email now like a a big fancy person and be like hey do you want to write a book and and knowing the worst thing that could happen is they they just don't answer your email and you're like okay I'll email somebody else you know and just
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: getting to see so many different ways of doing the job gave me a lot of like maybe confidence but just options to try. And that's this whole job is just trying stuff.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Lauren Khan: That's I'm so glad you said that because I we have a few a few interns at the agency and I've been encouraging them to join calls, like editor calls, offer calls, you know, get in on the sublist just to see and observe how other people do the job. Because it's truly a job that you learn by doing and by picking up on like what works. And I remember when I started, I was like, okay, so query manager, that's That's where I get queries. And actually, no. You get you can get queries. You can find clients in magazines, like you said. You can, you know, contact the baker at your favorite restaurant and see if they want to do a cookbook. Like it really is so interesting. so for querying writers, then, like, I know, I mean, we this is I We wanna dig into this because you have so much advice for querying writers, but kind of just like on a high level, if this is true, if like you can find clients in so many different ways, like what can querying writers like kind of distill from that?
Kate McKean: You gotta go just do the thing you wanna do. You know, you write the thing you
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: wanna write. And I I really do feel that like after twenty five years in the industry, I definitely feel like the old jaded like like you know, grandma sitting in the back of the corner being like, In my day you did this and rah But
Lauren Khan: Push!
Kate McKean: And it's really easy to sit back and be like, just do this really simple, distilled kind of folk wisdom thing. Just be like, just try. But after all of this time, there's no magic sauce, you know, and there's there's we've all broken down every little tip and trick, and we've all said, Okay, do it this way, and then and and we've all seen it things happen organically and also manufactured and just all these different ways. And so As much as we want to put order to the chaos, and I do think there is some order we can provide, like the people the writers we work with and like people in general, is that like no one is more in charge than you. And so if you want to go write the thing, go write the thing and do it out in the world if you want to, and then someone might see it. But if you don't do that, it'll never happen. But if you do it a little bit, you have a little bit more of a chance.
Tali: Yeah, I love that. And I love that you bring up, you know, finding your clients in maybe places that writers would think are slightly unorthodox. And I'm wondering some of the deals that you've worked on that you're most proud of, where did some of those come from? Just to get an understanding. Did they come from Query Manager? Did you find them yourself?
Kate McKean: I have I have two really fun stories it about this and they're kind of dated. So it's not that people shouldn't just like go try the but okay, anyway, I'll stop
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: qualifying. So okay. one of my longest standing and most prolific and successful clients is Madeline Rue. And she's written like we're getting close to like thirty books. And she's a New York Times bestseller, and she just had a Star Wars book come out called Legacy about Ray and Leah. Leah, sorry, Star Wars people don't kill me. and sh this she came to me in the most random way. My brother was on the internet and was like, I read this blog and it was cool and it's cool, and you should read it. And this is like blogger days. This is a long time ago. And I was like, Cool, I'll read it. And this blog was blogging the zombie apocalypse. From the back of a bookstore, as if it was happening in real time. So fictional. They we didn't have the zombie apocalypse. And each of the blog posts was a big book title, was like things fall apart, you know? And I was like, this is amazing. And the writing is so good. And people are commenting in the comments, in the world of the story. And I didn't know if this author was a genius and like making accounts and seeding them herself and like creating this metafiction. I was like, okay, you're a genius if you're doing that, or you're so convincing that people are playing along with your story in the comments. And I was like, either way, full, just full genius mode happening. And so I make a fake account, or I like a not Kate McKean, the literary agent account, and I and I say, and the character's name is Allison. And I was like, Allison, I had to talk to you, but I can't do it here. Email me and it was like a b like a a a a burner email account because I didn't want to ruin it. I didn't want to be like take anybody out of the story. So she emails me, she's Hi. And I was like, hi, I'm an agent. I think this is amazing. Can we talk about books? And she's You betcha. And then that was like almost 30 books ago. And
Tali: Wow.
Kate McKean: I do think that that is of replicable in in modern ways, but what she was doing was just like having fun on a platform that was available to her and using her talents that are
Tali: Well.
Kate McKean: so evident in all of her books.
Tali: That's incredible.
Lauren Khan: Amazing.
Kate McKean: right? And I was like, this is just my brother just being like read a cool thing on the internet, you know.
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: And in It it sort of the same ish time there was a website called I Can House Cheeseburger, which was pictures of funny
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: cats on the internet, like with captions.
Lauren Khan: Huh?
Kate McKean: And the number of people I've had to explain this to in the last like five years is truly upsetting. because yeah, it's
Tali: That's depressing.
Kate McKean: cause it's like the kids don't know. and that's
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: okay. But it was just memes. We didn't call that, but it was just cat memes. And I don't even remember who said that to me, but I was like, I can make that a book because it was cats. Like cats are popular in books. People like books about cats. And I don't know why, but it just knew that it would work. And so I like chased them all over the internet. I emailed them all the time. I flew to San Francisco. I tried to meet with them. I didn't even I had family there, so it was a little easier, but like I was like, I will like Annette Benning in American Beauty. She's like, I will sell this house today. Like I was like, I will get this book. And one of the guys emailed me one day and he was like, you know, I think we want to go with you as an agent. At first we were really weirded out by like how many times you emailed us. but then we realized that was what we would want in an agent. And I was like, Let's roll. Like, let's go. So those are like my best stories about how to find clients in unlikely places. but they're also just about like recognizing a thing you think is cool. And being confident in your opinion and it working out. I've been confident about a lot of other things that did not work out. But
Tali: Wow.
Kate McKean: that's those are my good stories.
Tali: And you really only need one of those. You know, you
Lauren Khan: that's a amazing. Yeah.
Tali: need one I can has cheeseburger and that's it. You know, you're good. You can have a few fails.
Kate McKean: Yeah, it's true. Yeah, exactly.
Lauren Khan: That's amazing. That I mean, we talk about this, Tally and I, all the time about how one of those crucial skills that an agent needs to have is the ability to spot talent and commercial viability and like, can I take this and can we make it into a book? so how what do you think can you look back at your career and spot the time the time maybe it's the these stories where you were like, yeah, okay, I know what I'm doing. Like I have taste.
Kate McKean: yeah, that's w yeah, it's funny to think about that because you know, we all have to have this kind of confidence to like go out into the world and say, Read this thing I love. and it does take a couple of successes before you you think, yeah, okay, I know what I'm doing. it definitely was the blog to book era for me. I did a lot of that stuff. and I represent Danny Lavery. Who started on the hairpin, which was a blog a bajillion years ago, with a feature called Texts from Jane Eyre. And it does exactly what it says on the tin. Like, it's exactly what and I was like, that's a book. and we started working together, and now it's like six or eight books later. I I have to sorry, Danny, I can't remember. I'd have to count. But he's a beautiful novelist. And it it's just like I didn't start working with Danny just for the jokes, you know, and I I just said I was like there there and then it's just like looking back in how many people will come to me and be like, I love Danny's books over the course of his whole career of just nonfiction and fiction. And it's just it's validating each time to be like, Okay, good. I can trust my taste
Tali: Mm-hmm. I love that story.
Kate McKean: a little bit more every day.
Tali: That's amazing. And I think that, you know, it's tough in today's market because back in the early days of the internet, you know, we had the hamster dance and we had a few other
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: sites that, you know, everyone knew about. But now the resources are infinite. So, you know, we had the episode we posted today actually was Marcus Cleaver who blew up on Reddit with We Used to
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: Live Here. And so what are some avenues that you think right now are quite timely for writers to get into where, you know, the attention might be focused there? I think TikTok maybe is a little bit oversaturated, but maybe there are some others
Kate McKean: I wish that there was like a specific platform thing that would work, you know, because then then writers could start today and go there and do the thing. But I think that the major platforms are so algorithm based and diffuse that they aren't they aren't useful for long form anymore. Like they can make a a a TikTok go viral and they can make a threads thread turn into lore and like all of this stuff. But I don't know how it's it's currently translating into something where the the reader, the the person looking at the content wants eighty thousand words. And so I think that the best places to be are the niche places that that writer has a community or, you know, the Reddit threads or the AO3 or where they are talking to their friends about the thing they all collectively love. And I think that when you're in a situation or a place on the line on the internet where people want to spend a little more time than twelve seconds on a post or a video, then you will have buy-in from those people who would like to spend more than twelve seconds with you. And then those things can like break containment. You know, and that's when all the fanfic like goes mainstream or like, you know, the indie press stuff breaks containment. And I think that that's actually more viable than like trying to go viral on a short form place.
Tali: That's such a good point. That is fantastic advice. And especially building that community. That's something that, you know, we talk about a lot on this podcast. Just how important it is not only for mental health in this industry, because, you
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm.
Tali: know, an industry of constant rejection and opacity is not necessarily the best thing for mental health, but also, you know, to to show people are interested in my work. People want to read this. And Is that something that you look for in clients? You know, we often think about what in a query letter grabs an agent's attention and that bioparagraph, you know, sometimes people include really fun and quirky things, but is seeing a large community something that draws your attention? And specifically for fiction, because for nonfiction, you know, we know platform matters, but but what's that like for fiction right now?
Kate McKean: I think that it makes the biggest difference in genre fiction because that's where the communities are online anyway. Like people go online and talk about literary fiction, but not in the same kind of like at the same tenor and the speed and and fervor as romance mystery, fantasy, science fiction, horror, etc. And so I think if the writer in those areas is involved in a big community in those areas, then it is a it a nice added bonus. It's nothing that will ever change a yes. To a no or a no to a yes, because I still gotta sell the book. I don't sell the community, I don't sell the platform in fiction. And but it definitely is a a real feather in an in an author's cap if it's there already. If it is not there, I could still love a book. I think I put AO3, I'm not saying that right. Yes. The fan the
Tali: I think so. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I think so.
Kate McKean: fan fiction. Okay, sorry. It's been a it's been
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Tali: Yeah, yeah, it's AO three. Yeah.
Kate McKean: thank you. Okay. I think I put AO three stats in a in a pitch letter to an editor for the first time this year where I would I was saying, Hey, this author has this tiny this niche community that we can tap into related to the the book I'm sending you. but it was only it's the first time I've ever done it. And I don't it all I didn't change a no into a yes, but it was the tiniest little feather in the cap, I think. And I how we will use that come marketing time, I'm not exactly sure, but we'll give it a shot. Like what's the worst that can happen?
Tali: Yeah, no, and seeing that evolution in the interest industry is so interesting too. And, you know, I'll preface this by saying I'm a very new agent. I've only been at this for a few months, but I was surprised to see that Wattpad is actually publishing books. And and
Kate McKean: Mm. Yeah.
Tali: that just seems to me like wow, this is something that, you know, as you said, like with AO3, writers would just turn to just to share their stories and with no eye towards a book coming out of it, and here we are.
Kate McKean: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not if they if you build it they will come, like that old saying from Field of Dreams, I believe. because you can't just put it on the internet and like wait for people to shower you with praise. but you can put a lot of things out there f for your own personal enjoyment and for those who might enjoy it with you and see what happens.
Tali: Yep, definitely. That's a great point.
Lauren Khan: Curious, you know, we've talked about all these different ways to find clients, and then of course, you have your current clients. How do you tend to structure your days? And I'm sure your days are never the same, but I sometimes, you know, I've been at this for a year, and I'm just I find myself very overwhelmed sometimes where I get online and I'm like, okay, do I go to query manager? Do I start looking at Instagram to find a client? Like, where do I go? so I would just love selfishly to know. How you do it.
Kate McKean: it took forever to figure out the tiniest ways to make order out of chaos and I fail miserably every day. the
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Kate McKean: the first thing I had to let go of is the feeling of getting caught up. There's no caught up. There's just never any caught up. There's always another manuscript, there's always more queries in
Tali: So true.
Kate McKean: the box, there's
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: always another contract that blah. I like my husband has said to me many times, he's like, You're not what you Don't you're not gonna get caught up this weekend. Like stop
Lauren Khan: Ha ha ha.
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: trying. So I I stopped waiting for this feeling of relief or like the pressure being off because it just doesn't go away. So you have to make peace with that and then handle it any way that you can. and then I do the thing that's on the mo the most fire, you know, the thing I'm latest on, the thing that needs
Lauren Khan: Yep.
Kate McKean: to happen by a certain day, the the client who I know is i seething because I haven't answered their email yet, the contract that needs to be done and and where the money is, not just because I get paid, but my clients get paid. So if I don't feel like quote unquote doing contracts that day, I am delaying my client's paycheck and I cannot do that. So usually the money stuff comes first. and and so do the contracts first and then do the thing where people are really mad at you and just get it done. And like get out of the shame spiral. That's a another
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Tali: Hm.
Kate McKean: thing I learned is that you will be very late on things and you will be very sorry. And you just have to go
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: and say, I am very late on this and I am very sorry. And and just do it and like break
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: the shame spiral. And I say that to every publishing person I know because I know editors are in that shame spiral too. And it's like we have all been there. Just give me the answer I know is already coming. Like just reject the thing I know you're gonna reject, even though it's been 18 months. Like just it's okay. I give you
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: amnesty. Like I don't hate you. and I'm just like, and I've always found that I have to admit immediately when I'm wrong. Like I'll be wrong about something. Be like, no, this fell off my radar. no, you know, like I'm telling you everyone the worst things because those are the things that weigh the w heaviest on my mind. when I open my to do list in the day because those are the things that need to be done the most. and then I balance that out with like how can I keep my brain alive for the rest of the day? Like I need to do a an enjoyable thing. Like I'll go read for 45 minutes on the couch or I'll I'll go hunt down that person that t subject matter or that topic I am interested in so that I can balance my life as like a human and also all the things I need to do in a day. and The li the less you want to do it, the more you have to do it. You just just you just you have to do it. Just like just
Tali: That's a great point. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: not only just get it out of the way, but the less you want to do it, the more you have to do it right this minute.
Tali: Yeah. And I think that that's probably why it's so important that we love this industry so much because the job truly is all encompassing. It it like I was lying in bed with my husband two nights ago and it was eleven forty five and I said, Okay, I'm shutting my laptop, not looking at it again. I swear it's going away. Twelve nine. Okay, I'm just gonna send two quick emails and then I swear, I swear it's going away. It it's never ending, you know? I even if I reply to all of my emails for that day and I get back to the editors about negotiations and everything is tied up. I can still make rights sheets for my clients. I can still,
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm.
Tali: you know, research scouts. I can still there's
Lauren Khan: There's always work. Yeah.
Tali: always things to do. So but I mean, I know that selfishly we really wanna get all the tips for agenting and whatnot, but I a lot of our listeners are writers and so I would love I
Lauren Khan: Are not agents.
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: I think I think maybe we should probably shift to also some advice for writers. So I guess I'd love to start with what are you seeing in the industry right now? What are you seeing, you know, in terms of what's getting snapped up, what kinds of projects are doing really well right now? And how does that translate to authors who are drafting right now? Should they take any of that into account? How should it influence their writing?
Kate McKean: I d I'm a a a big proponent of not following trends. because once the writer can spot a trend, those books were written five years ago. You know, they were started five years ago, they went through three years of work and a year of querying and two years of of of of production, and that's probably more than five if I were to do that math. and and you You can't start now and write the thing you see selling a lot, because you will be too far behind. And that doesn't mean you throw y you don't take any information from the market because you are trying to talk and sell to a person in a store who wants to buy a book or a librarian who wants to stock a book. so I think that it can be useful to look and see what there's a lot of. And maybe veer away from it. I think there was something on Book Riot or or Lit Hub or Electric Lit that was like, these are the 50 romanticy books we're most excited about this fall. And I was like, fifty. Woof, that's a lot. And so
Tali: Ha ha
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: while I think that romanticy is here to stay, I think that readers have a lot of choice. And I might not suggest to any of my clients that they start today on a brand new romantic. there are lots of fantasy books where there's some kissing in it. You know, so it's like don't ever it's not that you can't ever have a romantic subplot or that you can never write fantasy. So those things aren't going away either. But if you want to pitch it as a romantic, that is something that would be harder now than it was three to five years ago.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: So I think that it's useful for the reader for the writer to like Find the Venn diagram of the thing that they're super passionate
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: about and the thing readers wanna read about and like where does that overlap and then go there.
Tali: Hm. That's a really great point. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I love the Venn diagram approach. That's actually one of my favorite like exercises when I'm trying to think of because we're both writers as well. Trying to think of my next idea. I just write. like binge right just like out of my brain everything I love and like just try to start finding connections. And and honestly what you said is is so correct. Like from a literary agent's perspective, the amount of romancy I see in my inbox that just it it starts to, my eyes start to like everything blurs. Like my vision blurs when I read it because it sounds exactly the same over and over again. in so i incredible advice. so in going deeper then on like this Venn diagram, if someone were to where they're listening to this episode, they're like, okay, I'm gonna take this episode and I'm gonna start like working on my next idea. What would what is like the first thing that they should do? Like write down like where should they find this market information? Should they go to a bookstore? Should they get on publisher's marketplace? What do you think?
Kate McKean: Think they gotta write the book first. You know? And I and maybe that's not that's not easy advice to give and or follow. but I I okay, so if they're gonna do market research period, let's w answer that as you asked it, then they should go look at bookstores and they should just wander around a bookstore and like make friends with a librarian and be like, What do you I you know, like think about like try to shop for the book that you are writing. Like go talk to a librarian and be like, I really want a generation ship space opera with dogs. You know? is that a thing? And then they'll say, like, well, you know, th they will suggest books to you. And you can use that information to to dissect and like interrogate the thing you want to do. And sometimes when there are no books about the thing you're writing, that is a sign that the reader does not want a book about that. you know, where it's like at home dentistry for your lizard. Like no one needs that's not I'm making up the most ridiculous things of of course.
Lauren Khan: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: But like when there's a what I say, like a hole on the shelf, like sometimes the reader doesn't want that filled and they'll just like Google it, you know,
Tali: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: or that's just not anybody's taste. but you can you can try to look for the thing that you want to write and see what's out there. And use that information. You're never gonna get like a bright green light or a bright red light. You're just gonna add to the your knowledge base and then go forth and do whatever you can.
Tali: Yeah. And I love that you bring up that just because there's a gap, it doesn't mean that there's a demand for books that fall within
Kate McKean: Mm.
Tali: that gap. It's funny because I see this in my query in box where we always say we want high concept, we want a unique premise, and I see these books that they're very unique, but not in the way that maybe the market is looking for, because you can't just take
Lauren Khan: Bit too unique.
Tali: exactly you
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: just take a bunch of elements that don't go together. You try to mesh them together and But this reminds me of a topic that, you know, can be a bit polarizing among agents, and that's the topic of comp titles. And writers, I love comps. Writers
Kate McKean: Mm, yay, cops.
Tali: have so many questions about comps because it can be really difficult. I remember when I started writing, I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing about how to pitch a book. And my understanding was that a comp just had to be similar globally to your book, and I couldn't find anything. That was like that. And I was really struggling. I was even I was contacting bookstores and asking them, Do you know of any books that are similar to this? And just drawing blanks. So what camp are you in for comps? Are you in the camp of, you know, you can say it it mimics the oppression of blood over bright haven? And the and taking small elements. Do you think that comps should be more universally kind of comparable to your book? What are what are your thoughts?
Kate McKean: I'd say that my least favorite comps are what I call Franken comps, which are just like, it takes the setting from this and the theme of that and the font, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you have built Frankenstein's Monster, and I don't know what that thing does. And nine times out of ten, it's because I'm not familiar with all of those books. And I will never n any single agent is never going to be familiar with all of those books, even if they're incredibly well versed in that genre. It's just it's just st it's just statistically unlikely. and that's okay because I can kind of s I can always see what the writer is trying to do. And I can take whatever information from that I can and and and and add it to all of the other information in the query. And so then I'll just like if I don't know any of the comps and then that's fine. And I'm just reading the query and like, do I think it sounds cool? Do I wanna read it? Do I think I could sell it? All those questions are fine. And if I get to the next stage where I like really love the sample or I really like the full, I'll go into those comps again and be like, what are those books? Is this accurate? Can I use this? do I need to look for others? Because I think it's fundamental that the the writer understands what comps are used for. And I think there's two ways. Like for for the query stage, comps or vibes. What are the vibes of your book? What is the reading experience like? Because The writer doesn't know any sales. They can't find it out. They can't say to me that it's gonna sell you, you know, just because this book sold this many, my book is gonna sell this many. That it should not be their goal. and so at the at the query stage, tell me what it feels like to read your book and how would you describe your book to your best friend to get them to read it or any book, you know, it's just it's like this, but with that, you know, and it can be that construction, and that's fine. It doesn't have to be, but like how would you convince your best friend to read a book you really, really love? What would you say to them and how would you give them other titles that that would help them understand what the reading experience would be like? and then after the query stage, comps are sales. And that's when you work with a professional, your agent, to say, okay, let's use these two books for a comp, but not this third one, because I can see on book scan that it didn't do that great. So we're just gonna not do that one. And then I just like work with my client because they've read things that I haven't read and vice versa. And I have access to the sales information but the best that we can. and then we use those to give them to the editor so that they can plug it in to the PL magic number machine. And that helps predict future sales of the book that they were hoping to sell. And it it it checks off the things on the list that the editor needs it to check off and we want to help our case as much as we can with that editor by giving the most valuable comps. But that's like that's the second the next level thing that writers at the query stage don't know and shouldn't don't have to know anything about. And I may be the only person who feels this way as an agent, but like that that's how I s that's how I use comps in my my day to day life.
Tali: Yep. No, I agree. And especially with the point of, you know, we're not gonna know all the comps and often writers list comps that maybe I've heard of but I haven't read them, maybe I have no idea what they're about. And so I think that there's kind of a big focus on getting the comps right and you know, I'm so confused, what do they mean? But at the end of the day, for me at least, it comes down to the premise and to the strength of the writing at a craft level and you know
Kate McKean: Absolutely.
Tali: So what are some things that you look for in terms of writing on a craft level? What are some deal breakers that if you see in the opening pages, you're setting it aside? And what are some things that really pull you in?
Kate McKean: it's always easier to say the things that like are deal breakers to me. and I also like to iterate that there really aren't things that are like I would read one sentence and never a single sentence more, because that strikes fear into the heart of writers. They're just like, if I get one
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: sentence wrong, I'll never get an age it. but I definitely have read so many first pages of things that I have can recognize things that I see so often that they are a little boring to me. And one is just like Starting a story at 6 a.m. when the character gets out of bed and makes coffee and
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: looks in the mirror and says,
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Kate McKean: my gosh, my sandy blonde chin level hair is very messy today. And like, you know, like it's like
Tali: Ha ha ha.
Kate McKean: using using a mirror reflection to report
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Tali: Hm.
Kate McKean: what a character looks like. Like, I don't care what kind of coffee you're drinking. I find that
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: the more kind of like brand names or like mod mon what's the word? Like monikers of of of characterization. Like she picked up her Louis Vuitton. Like there are lots of people who carry a Louis Vuitton bag. You can have that be characterization, but that is not all of characterization. You know? I also never need to know what kind of wood a table is made out of.
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: Like while and that's not like an opening pages thing, but 99% of the time a writer tells
Lauren Khan: Ha
Kate McKean: me what kind of wood a table is made out of, like I take it out. Because why? People think it's descriptive, and sometimes it can be. It does matter sometimes. If it's a pine
Tali: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate McKean: table in the Versailles or a mahogany table in a hut, like it can matter. But it doesn't. and I think that i first pages are really tough and there isn't one way to do it. But the thing I'm looking for is to go, I want this like little spark of pleasant confusion. You know, like I want to I want to want to know more. And you
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Kate McKean: can't do that with tricks because you can just see the tricks. and you do that by starting with maybe an interesting question, not literally a question, like not literally a question mark on the
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: end of your first sentence, but like what is the reader Trying to figure out on that first page and how can you draw them into the story? And what is the character trying to figure out on that first page? and it's very, very, very hard. And I also suggest to writers many times that you just start writing and then you're gonna end up cutting like the first twelve to twenty-five pages that you write. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but a lot
Tali: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate McKean: of times your real first page is like n 3,000 words in and the the beginning it was just throat clearing. And like so look for that. Like spend less time focusing on that first sentence before you've written it. And then just start and then maybe you find your first sentence later on, six pages later.
Tali: That's such a great point. Yeah, and the beginning,
Lauren Khan: Amazing advice.
Tali: it's the toughest part to draft. I mean, you know, even in my own work, I probably redraft my beginnings twenty plus times and then I cut it and start again because it's just not it's not interesting enough. It's not quick enough. It's not raising that question that you bring up. And I think that a lot of the time also writers focus on, you know, having a first line that hooks you. on having that, you know, that that just cliffhanger at the end of it or these these small
Kate McKean: Mm.
Tali: tricks, but really it's about kind of the bigger picture and how does it all come together and what's the reading experience like. So yeah, I love that you bring that up. And I'm wondering okay, so you've found the query that draws your eye, you've offered the writer accepts your offer. What does your editorial process look like and what do you take into account when you're polishing up a manuscript for editors?
Kate McKean: You know, it's it's really changed over the course of my career. in the beginning I w I really heavily edited and not a like I will fix your book way or I will change your book into the this perfect vessel or you know, but I had more time to more heavily edit. And I don't have that time anymore. And so I definitely do only focus on the kind of queries that I can not I I don't s I definitely do not sign somebody up and send it out the next day. It's never that's basically never happened to me. but if I see something that I like that I cannot afford time-wise to give it the attention it deserves, that I probably I'm not the right agent for it. because then that person would just be waiting forever and ever for me to have this big chunk of time I just don't really have. but I also what I'm looking for when I'm working editorially with a client is that I wanna teach them. So that I don't have to do it for the next book? Like it's selfish. But
Tali: Yeah. Yep.
Kate McKean: and I'm saying that kind of as a joke, but I can't fix all the books and I want to teach my clients not the right way to write a book, but to say, Hey, you know, when we let's start on page seven, because that's when it really gets interesting. So next time you write the book, look at your beginning again and like, is it there or is it a couple of pages later? Or, you know, you think you h you have s really told the reader the stakes on page six, but it comes on page eighty-five for me, you know, and then you're like, next time let's look and see where the real like where the real stakes come in so that you can build your story in that way the next time. And it's again it's not for me to like get out of doing work, but I have been in situations where I've done a heavy edit on a book and then it comes around the time for the next the author's next book or the option book and the editor's like, whoa. Where did this come from? I'm like, it's because the pages you saw were heavily edited with me and my client for like two years. And I'm like, I don't want
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: to be in that situation. It doesn't help anyone. And again, I'm not
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: saying I have any magic editorial powers, but it I'm I need to be honest and I I'm I'm trying to work with an author's skill set, not to fix books. Like I don't I'm not I don't fix books.
Tali: That's a great point.
Lauren Khan: hundred percent. We talk about this a lot offline, like just finding great writers. Like it can it can be a great idea, but if if to me it's not great writing, like I'm not here to teach you how to do that. Like I'm not I don't get paid like to teach you how to write like unless we sell this. So
Kate McKean: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I think that's great. And I think you know that's where as a writer like Querying writers that are listening, like do all you can. Like you truly need to do all you can before you start submitting it to agents. Cause I think sometimes writers think, well, an agent will like take it to the next level. And like that's
Tali: Exactly.
Lauren Khan: really not what we're here for. so and you wanna give your work the best chance, you know.
Kate McKean: And I like a a lot of questions of like, how do you know? Like, how do you know when it's done? And
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: I I've always said to authors, like, when you have that when you there's like two little voices in your head. One is like, this is horrible and you'll never sell it. And that's just fear and anxiety, and you should not listen to that, you know? And like that's just that little devil on your shoulder that's trying to get you to take the easy way out and like stop writing, because stopping writing is much, much better than starting writing. but
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: When you have this like gut feeling that you're like, chapter two feels weird. You know, like or you know, like, I don't know if the ending is the way I want it to be, you have to stop and listen to that little voice and interrogate it and look at it and try to look at it as honestly as you can outside of the anxiety of, I'll never get this done, it'll never get published, I've wasted so much time, I wanna do this now. You know, all these feelings that every writer feels, And and address it the best you can. And then when you when you've addressed all those little things you think you need to address, that's when you are done. And
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: then other people can come in and help and show you things you just didn't see because you you cannot see everything about your own book. And like that is a advanced kind of author vibes and intuiting your process and all these kind of things, but that's the point you you're trying to get to. I
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: think in your in self editing.
Tali: Yeah. No, that's great.
Lauren Khan: Yeah, that's su that's great advice. And I know Tally and I have definitely come across those chapters in our own writing where we're just like, Ooh, this is let's just save it for another day. And I'm like, you need to address this. You have to address this. Exactly.
Kate McKean: Y that day's gonna come. Yeah.
Tali: I know. I know. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, I mean not not letting that critical little voice because while I was I was recently editing my manuscript that's hopefully gonna go on submission very soon. And I'd just be texting Lauren and saying, I hate this. This is the worst. Okay, maybe at the fifty percent mark it's okay, but this is awful and you know, just silencing that voice. But I would love to talk about you as a writer as well. So well write
Kate McKean: yay. I currently hate
Lauren Khan: Yes, please.
Kate McKean: my book right now too. So
Tali: What are you working on? I'd love to know. And then I'd love to know about right through it. And you have a picture book. I'm just so interested in all the things.
Kate McKean: write? the
Lauren Khan: And your newsletter, all the things.
Kate McKean: newsletter. I just
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: finished writing today's newsletter before I started talking to you guys. I love writing the newsletter. I've been doing it for like six, seven years now and it's so much. And I like I'm gonna run out of things to talk about one day for sure. And I'm like already getting to be like, did I already use this picture? But anyway,
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: I really I I do really like the actual writing part. doesn't mean I do it all the time or as n as much as I should. but when I get away from the all of the anxiety voices and the you know busyness and the ugh this actually is not that fun, just start with the blank page. Like I I really enjoy the the writing part of it. So I've I've written like five or six or eight books that didn't sell, like just a ton of things that didn't sell and that's always very surprising to people because they're like, Well, aren't you a magical literary agent who can get whatever she wants? And I'm like, No, I'm not. Nobody is. Like, no, it took me seven years to get a book deal with my own agent. 'cause I have an agent. His name is Michael Barrett. He's fantastic. but I, you know, I am just a writer like everybody else. I don't have any magical powers. I do have a lot of experience in the publishing industry. And that does give me some some perspective. But it n isn't gonna tell me what book to write that will definitely get published. So all the novels I've written have not been published, and there's three. And so I'm gonna write another one. and and it's a big messy thing right now because my writer's group is making me pants it instead of make an outline because I'm an outline queen and I they're just like you can't this time, and I'm having a whole lot of fun, but it's gonna be a a horrible second draft. Like tackling that second draft is gonna absolutely kill me. But I don't even have the first draft yet. So right now I'm calling it Secretaries on the Moon, because it's like a alternate history, 1950s, what if there was a moon colony but it was run by like Joan from Mad Men. and I don't even know what's gonna
Lauren Khan: Huh? Amazing.
Kate McKean: happen in it, but I'm having a grand time because
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: those are things that I love. I love mid century NASA like space race culture. I love women in in the workplace and I le in that era. and I like science fiction and and space travel. So like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna see what happens. I I I don't know. The Russians might show up. I really just don't know. And then I'm
Lauren Khan: I love that.
Kate McKean: sending today the hopefully final draft of my next picture book to my agent to send out. and I was thinking about it la we were on I'm on like draft like fifteen or twelve 25 or something like that of this thousand-word picture book. And I was thinking to myself last night, I was like, this is dumb. This is not good. This is not a good idea. No one's gonna like this. And I'm just gonna stop telling myself that and then let somebody else tell me that. You know, it's kind of like Yes.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Lauren Khan: Yep. And that's when you know it's ready. When you're like, this is actually the worst thing I've ever created. It's ready for sub.
Kate McKean: Exactly. Yeah, it's like you look at something really, really good and you're like, mine is so far away from that. And you're
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: like, and you know what? It might not sell. Okay, I'll write another one. Because I want to do that part. And like I
Lauren Khan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate McKean: may never sell
Tali: Is that true?
Kate McKean: another book ever in my life as a writer. And that would suck. I would not like that. But I'm gonna write another book.
Tali: Yeah, that's the way to go. That's that's what
Lauren Khan: You have to.
Tali: writers do. Exactly, exactly. And I mean, I want to turn to write through it just for one second because I think it is such a valuable resource for writers. So good.
Lauren Khan: have it on my shelf. It's amazing. I love it.
Kate McKean: Thank you.
Tali: So without, you know, giving away too many spoilers, are there any teasers or tidbits you can share? And listeners, please pick up Write Through It by Kate McKean. Fantastic resource.
Kate McKean: Thank you. I had so this the book came out of my newsletter kinda, you know. I write started writing my newsletter, not with like, I can turn this into a book in my mind, but not not having that in my mind. And I really spent a long time being like, Well, what do I have to say that hasn't already been said by these incredibly smart people who have already written books about how to get a book deal and how to write a book and what do literary agents do? and like Courtney Mom's book, The Before and After the Book Deal, is fantastic. And for a little while I was mad. I was like, That's the book I wanted to write. But then I was like, wait. I she's just not writing this book at me. It's a fantastic book. Like, it's fine. And I got over that. and then I really found the way into it for me, which was listening to the my readers on my newsletter who would really respond when I would talk about the feelings of writing. And this like, Yeah, your book's done when you hate it. You know, like And that like everybody feels completely lost and everybody feels like they're doing it wrong. And this is like literally everybody feels this way, or a lot of people do, and that that's the normal. And that nobody realizes that because we all write in isolation and we don't talk about the hard things. And so while there's there's a lot of really practical things in right through it, including my actual book propo proposal for that book is in the back of that book. If you're writing nonfiction, you can like literally see the book proposal. And I have a lot of completely fictionalized but not far from the truth query letters, good and bad, in the back of that book. there's lots of practical stuff, but there's a lot of hand holding. And I've gotten a lot of feedback that that's help been really helpful of just being like, yeah, this sucks. But we're gonna do it anyway. But because this is the other
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: part we like. We love books, you know, and like And that's what I've really wanted to do with it and I and I'm I'm really glad that that resonated w has resonated with people.
Tali: Yeah. No, it really does. I think it's funny. I posted this short Substack note, I don't know, maybe a week ago now. And I don't know why this thought just came into my head, but I said, you know, life's hard. Make it harder by writing a book. And
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: it seems like it's really resonating with people. So I think that that mentality is, you know, very relatable to writers.
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's even voice to that. Nobody you know, it's like every time you say it and somebody hears it, that just makes it you're taking a little pressure off their shoulders, I think.
Tali: Exactly. That's so true. Well, I would love to know some of the books that inspired you. What are some of your favorite
Lauren Khan: Yes.
Tali: fiction, nonfiction, craft books? All of the books.
Kate McKean: Bird by Bird and Lamotte, obviously, the GOAT, you know, just getting permission to write a shitty first draft is life changing. And I didn't hear it as many times as I read that book before I started really writing, where I was like, I'm gonna get it right the first times and then I won't have to edit it. And you're like, No, no one does that. Not
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: for you. and so that's something I like Turn to and and remember and kind of use as a touchstone. And it's you know, so many people also really love that book. I really I'm looking at my bookshelf which is next to me and it is so hard to f to pick any of these books because it's kind of like The the books are always there. And you can always have one that's gonna help you that moment. And there's been a books
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: that have helped me in specific moments and books that, you know, made me want to be a writer and books that changed my life when I was a kid. And and and it's so hard to f it's so hard to pick a f I can't pick favorites. I do remember reading Michael Chabin's Mist The Mysteries of Pittsburgh, which is like his first book, which was his MFA thesis, and being like sit down, like come. on how can you write this fantastic book like first out
Tali: Ha ha ha ha.
Kate McKean: of the gate and I was so mad about it but it also made me just like absolutely love him and I
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: know that the the amazing adventures of Capillary and Clay really changed me as a reader. I also really, really like books about publishing, which is like my niche interest is like I
Lauren Khan: Mm. Same.
Kate McKean: guess I don't have anything else interesting in my life, but
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Kate McKean: I really like The Best of Everything by Ronna Jaffe. This about women trying to break into publishing in the fifties, the forties and the fifties and it it it's really highlights this it's this not the that the s not the struggle of nice white ladies in the city, you know, 'cause that's a lot of what pub the history of publishing is. but women in breaking into traditionally men's work or the workplace at all post war in America. Is some is a niche interest of mine and I'm always like I always love a book where someone has told a woman c she can't do it and then she goes and does it anyway.
Tali: Hmm. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, well,
Lauren Khan: Mm-hmm. That's that's a great subgenre.
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: I mean, this has just been absolutely incredible, Kate.
Lauren Khan: Yeah, it's been amazing.
Tali: Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. I think we've shared so many useful tips and tricks for writers and agents alike. So I think that there's a lot of value in what you've said. So thank you.
Lauren Khan: Thank you so much.
Kate McKean: Thanks so much. It's great to talk to you both. can't wait to hear even more of your episodes.
Tali: And thank you all so much for watching. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Pros Pros Podcast. And remember to check back next Tuesday for a new episode.
Lauren Khan: Well, hello, Kate. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Kate McKean: I'm so glad to be here.
Lauren Khan: Awesome. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. We are your biggest fans as agents, as authors. We've been looking up to you in the industry for a long time. you just have so much to offer us and I would just love to kick things off by knowing how you found your way into this wild and crazy industry we call publishing.
Kate McKean: man, we have to go back to the wilds of the late 1990s, when I was in college, the very late nineties, and I was at the University of Florida, and my sister, who is a very very smart person, wasn't publishing at the time, and she's like, I get the vibe that you don't want to be a high school English teacher. Like, no shade at all. Like I would have been fine being an English teacher, but I hadn't I was getting an English degree, and she's like, What are you gonna do with your life? And she said, you should get an internship at the University Press at your college, at the University Press of Florida. And I usually do what she says. And so I did. And then I just started learning about this thing, this weird thing called publishing. And I started reading a newsletter called Publishers Lunch, which had lunch, which has had just started. And I started reading about literary agents. And I was like, who are these weirdos? And I somehow knew when I was like 19 years old that being a literary literary agent would mean that I didn't have to sit in meetings all day and that I might not have to live in New York City my whole life to work in publishing because I knew at that point that, you know, most of publishing, but not all, is in New York. and that I could have a lot of control over my day to day. You know, just and I don't know how I knew that. Like I really don't and and all of that kind of came true in pursuing this career. And though I still live in New York like twenty five years later, which I love and I'm happy that's the way it turned out. I was kinda right about the rest of the stuff and it may be the only perfectly right decision I've ever made in my life. I don't know. It just worked out.
Tali: That's amazing. And I think that, you
Lauren Khan: That's
Tali: know, there's something about agenting that if it is the right choice for you, it feels right. Like Lauren and I both came from law and you know,
Kate McKean: Wow. Yeah.
Tali: giving up the legal practice and becoming an agent just feels right. It feels like the right move. So I don't know what it is about the industry, but it's phenomenal and Can you
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: take us through your journey in terms of agenting, maybe touching on some of the big things you've learned since you started?
Kate McKean: yeah. so after I graduated undergrad and I worked at the University of Press of Florida for a year as an editorial assistant. So I did that little that little d dance too. I went to the University of Southern Mississippi to get my MFA and I was like, I'm gonna be a writer because I always did o want to be a writer and I got to do that. I get to do that too. but I also knew I needed a a job job. So I go write for not quite two years and I was like, wait, I wanna be a grown-up. with a job and not a student anymore. So I packed my bags, I drove to New York City and I got the a job as the assistant to seven literary agents at the same time, which is like a thing no one should ever do. And
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: they it was kind of bonkers. They all shared office space in Manhattan. And I got to see seven different agents do the job seven different ways. And Even just in the short time I was an assistant, like the two years I was an assistant, I was like, wait, you can do this job so many different ways. You can be really focused on the line and the sentence, or you can go after big people, big name people in magazines, or you know, just all these different ways. And I just kind of like picked the little things that I wanted to tuck away and then got to use them later in my whole career. Like having the confidence to go email and and well yeah it's just email now like a a big fancy person and be like hey do you want to write a book and and knowing the worst thing that could happen is they they just don't answer your email and you're like okay I'll email somebody else you know and just
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: getting to see so many different ways of doing the job gave me a lot of like maybe confidence but just options to try. And that's this whole job is just trying stuff.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Lauren Khan: That's I'm so glad you said that because I we have a few a few interns at the agency and I've been encouraging them to join calls, like editor calls, offer calls, you know, get in on the sublist just to see and observe how other people do the job. Because it's truly a job that you learn by doing and by picking up on like what works. And I remember when I started, I was like, okay, so query manager, that's That's where I get queries. And actually, no. You get you can get queries. You can find clients in magazines, like you said. You can, you know, contact the baker at your favorite restaurant and see if they want to do a cookbook. Like it really is so interesting. so for querying writers, then, like, I know, I mean, we this is I We wanna dig into this because you have so much advice for querying writers, but kind of just like on a high level, if this is true, if like you can find clients in so many different ways, like what can querying writers like kind of distill from that?
Kate McKean: You gotta go just do the thing you wanna do. You know, you write the thing you
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: wanna write. And I I really do feel that like after twenty five years in the industry, I definitely feel like the old jaded like like you know, grandma sitting in the back of the corner being like, In my day you did this and rah But
Lauren Khan: Push!
Kate McKean: And it's really easy to sit back and be like, just do this really simple, distilled kind of folk wisdom thing. Just be like, just try. But after all of this time, there's no magic sauce, you know, and there's there's we've all broken down every little tip and trick, and we've all said, Okay, do it this way, and then and and we've all seen it things happen organically and also manufactured and just all these different ways. And so As much as we want to put order to the chaos, and I do think there is some order we can provide, like the people the writers we work with and like people in general, is that like no one is more in charge than you. And so if you want to go write the thing, go write the thing and do it out in the world if you want to, and then someone might see it. But if you don't do that, it'll never happen. But if you do it a little bit, you have a little bit more of a chance.
Tali: Yeah, I love that. And I love that you bring up, you know, finding your clients in maybe places that writers would think are slightly unorthodox. And I'm wondering some of the deals that you've worked on that you're most proud of, where did some of those come from? Just to get an understanding. Did they come from Query Manager? Did you find them yourself?
Kate McKean: I have I have two really fun stories it about this and they're kind of dated. So it's not that people shouldn't just like go try the but okay, anyway, I'll stop
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: qualifying. So okay. one of my longest standing and most prolific and successful clients is Madeline Rue. And she's written like we're getting close to like thirty books. And she's a New York Times bestseller, and she just had a Star Wars book come out called Legacy about Ray and Leah. Leah, sorry, Star Wars people don't kill me. and sh this she came to me in the most random way. My brother was on the internet and was like, I read this blog and it was cool and it's cool, and you should read it. And this is like blogger days. This is a long time ago. And I was like, Cool, I'll read it. And this blog was blogging the zombie apocalypse. From the back of a bookstore, as if it was happening in real time. So fictional. They we didn't have the zombie apocalypse. And each of the blog posts was a big book title, was like things fall apart, you know? And I was like, this is amazing. And the writing is so good. And people are commenting in the comments, in the world of the story. And I didn't know if this author was a genius and like making accounts and seeding them herself and like creating this metafiction. I was like, okay, you're a genius if you're doing that, or you're so convincing that people are playing along with your story in the comments. And I was like, either way, full, just full genius mode happening. And so I make a fake account, or I like a not Kate McKean, the literary agent account, and I and I say, and the character's name is Allison. And I was like, Allison, I had to talk to you, but I can't do it here. Email me and it was like a b like a a a a burner email account because I didn't want to ruin it. I didn't want to be like take anybody out of the story. So she emails me, she's Hi. And I was like, hi, I'm an agent. I think this is amazing. Can we talk about books? And she's You betcha. And then that was like almost 30 books ago. And
Tali: Wow.
Kate McKean: I do think that that is of replicable in in modern ways, but what she was doing was just like having fun on a platform that was available to her and using her talents that are
Tali: Well.
Kate McKean: so evident in all of her books.
Tali: That's incredible.
Lauren Khan: Amazing.
Kate McKean: right? And I was like, this is just my brother just being like read a cool thing on the internet, you know.
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: And in It it sort of the same ish time there was a website called I Can House Cheeseburger, which was pictures of funny
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: cats on the internet, like with captions.
Lauren Khan: Huh?
Kate McKean: And the number of people I've had to explain this to in the last like five years is truly upsetting. because yeah, it's
Tali: That's depressing.
Kate McKean: cause it's like the kids don't know. and that's
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: okay. But it was just memes. We didn't call that, but it was just cat memes. And I don't even remember who said that to me, but I was like, I can make that a book because it was cats. Like cats are popular in books. People like books about cats. And I don't know why, but it just knew that it would work. And so I like chased them all over the internet. I emailed them all the time. I flew to San Francisco. I tried to meet with them. I didn't even I had family there, so it was a little easier, but like I was like, I will like Annette Benning in American Beauty. She's like, I will sell this house today. Like I was like, I will get this book. And one of the guys emailed me one day and he was like, you know, I think we want to go with you as an agent. At first we were really weirded out by like how many times you emailed us. but then we realized that was what we would want in an agent. And I was like, Let's roll. Like, let's go. So those are like my best stories about how to find clients in unlikely places. but they're also just about like recognizing a thing you think is cool. And being confident in your opinion and it working out. I've been confident about a lot of other things that did not work out. But
Tali: Wow.
Kate McKean: that's those are my good stories.
Tali: And you really only need one of those. You know, you
Lauren Khan: that's a amazing. Yeah.
Tali: need one I can has cheeseburger and that's it. You know, you're good. You can have a few fails.
Kate McKean: Yeah, it's true. Yeah, exactly.
Lauren Khan: That's amazing. That I mean, we talk about this, Tally and I, all the time about how one of those crucial skills that an agent needs to have is the ability to spot talent and commercial viability and like, can I take this and can we make it into a book? so how what do you think can you look back at your career and spot the time the time maybe it's the these stories where you were like, yeah, okay, I know what I'm doing. Like I have taste.
Kate McKean: yeah, that's w yeah, it's funny to think about that because you know, we all have to have this kind of confidence to like go out into the world and say, Read this thing I love. and it does take a couple of successes before you you think, yeah, okay, I know what I'm doing. it definitely was the blog to book era for me. I did a lot of that stuff. and I represent Danny Lavery. Who started on the hairpin, which was a blog a bajillion years ago, with a feature called Texts from Jane Eyre. And it does exactly what it says on the tin. Like, it's exactly what and I was like, that's a book. and we started working together, and now it's like six or eight books later. I I have to sorry, Danny, I can't remember. I'd have to count. But he's a beautiful novelist. And it it's just like I didn't start working with Danny just for the jokes, you know, and I I just said I was like there there and then it's just like looking back in how many people will come to me and be like, I love Danny's books over the course of his whole career of just nonfiction and fiction. And it's just it's validating each time to be like, Okay, good. I can trust my taste
Tali: Mm-hmm. I love that story.
Kate McKean: a little bit more every day.
Tali: That's amazing. And I think that, you know, it's tough in today's market because back in the early days of the internet, you know, we had the hamster dance and we had a few other
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: sites that, you know, everyone knew about. But now the resources are infinite. So, you know, we had the episode we posted today actually was Marcus Cleaver who blew up on Reddit with We Used to
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: Live Here. And so what are some avenues that you think right now are quite timely for writers to get into where, you know, the attention might be focused there? I think TikTok maybe is a little bit oversaturated, but maybe there are some others
Kate McKean: I wish that there was like a specific platform thing that would work, you know, because then then writers could start today and go there and do the thing. But I think that the major platforms are so algorithm based and diffuse that they aren't they aren't useful for long form anymore. Like they can make a a a TikTok go viral and they can make a threads thread turn into lore and like all of this stuff. But I don't know how it's it's currently translating into something where the the reader, the the person looking at the content wants eighty thousand words. And so I think that the best places to be are the niche places that that writer has a community or, you know, the Reddit threads or the AO3 or where they are talking to their friends about the thing they all collectively love. And I think that when you're in a situation or a place on the line on the internet where people want to spend a little more time than twelve seconds on a post or a video, then you will have buy-in from those people who would like to spend more than twelve seconds with you. And then those things can like break containment. You know, and that's when all the fanfic like goes mainstream or like, you know, the indie press stuff breaks containment. And I think that that's actually more viable than like trying to go viral on a short form place.
Tali: That's such a good point. That is fantastic advice. And especially building that community. That's something that, you know, we talk about a lot on this podcast. Just how important it is not only for mental health in this industry, because, you
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm.
Tali: know, an industry of constant rejection and opacity is not necessarily the best thing for mental health, but also, you know, to to show people are interested in my work. People want to read this. And Is that something that you look for in clients? You know, we often think about what in a query letter grabs an agent's attention and that bioparagraph, you know, sometimes people include really fun and quirky things, but is seeing a large community something that draws your attention? And specifically for fiction, because for nonfiction, you know, we know platform matters, but but what's that like for fiction right now?
Kate McKean: I think that it makes the biggest difference in genre fiction because that's where the communities are online anyway. Like people go online and talk about literary fiction, but not in the same kind of like at the same tenor and the speed and and fervor as romance mystery, fantasy, science fiction, horror, etc. And so I think if the writer in those areas is involved in a big community in those areas, then it is a it a nice added bonus. It's nothing that will ever change a yes. To a no or a no to a yes, because I still gotta sell the book. I don't sell the community, I don't sell the platform in fiction. And but it definitely is a a real feather in an in an author's cap if it's there already. If it is not there, I could still love a book. I think I put AO3, I'm not saying that right. Yes. The fan the
Tali: I think so. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I think so.
Kate McKean: fan fiction. Okay, sorry. It's been a it's been
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Tali: Yeah, yeah, it's AO three. Yeah.
Kate McKean: thank you. Okay. I think I put AO three stats in a in a pitch letter to an editor for the first time this year where I would I was saying, Hey, this author has this tiny this niche community that we can tap into related to the the book I'm sending you. but it was only it's the first time I've ever done it. And I don't it all I didn't change a no into a yes, but it was the tiniest little feather in the cap, I think. And I how we will use that come marketing time, I'm not exactly sure, but we'll give it a shot. Like what's the worst that can happen?
Tali: Yeah, no, and seeing that evolution in the interest industry is so interesting too. And, you know, I'll preface this by saying I'm a very new agent. I've only been at this for a few months, but I was surprised to see that Wattpad is actually publishing books. And and
Kate McKean: Mm. Yeah.
Tali: that just seems to me like wow, this is something that, you know, as you said, like with AO3, writers would just turn to just to share their stories and with no eye towards a book coming out of it, and here we are.
Kate McKean: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not if they if you build it they will come, like that old saying from Field of Dreams, I believe. because you can't just put it on the internet and like wait for people to shower you with praise. but you can put a lot of things out there f for your own personal enjoyment and for those who might enjoy it with you and see what happens.
Tali: Yep, definitely. That's a great point.
Lauren Khan: Curious, you know, we've talked about all these different ways to find clients, and then of course, you have your current clients. How do you tend to structure your days? And I'm sure your days are never the same, but I sometimes, you know, I've been at this for a year, and I'm just I find myself very overwhelmed sometimes where I get online and I'm like, okay, do I go to query manager? Do I start looking at Instagram to find a client? Like, where do I go? so I would just love selfishly to know. How you do it.
Kate McKean: it took forever to figure out the tiniest ways to make order out of chaos and I fail miserably every day. the
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Kate McKean: the first thing I had to let go of is the feeling of getting caught up. There's no caught up. There's just never any caught up. There's always another manuscript, there's always more queries in
Tali: So true.
Kate McKean: the box, there's
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: always another contract that blah. I like my husband has said to me many times, he's like, You're not what you Don't you're not gonna get caught up this weekend. Like stop
Lauren Khan: Ha ha ha.
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: trying. So I I stopped waiting for this feeling of relief or like the pressure being off because it just doesn't go away. So you have to make peace with that and then handle it any way that you can. and then I do the thing that's on the mo the most fire, you know, the thing I'm latest on, the thing that needs
Lauren Khan: Yep.
Kate McKean: to happen by a certain day, the the client who I know is i seething because I haven't answered their email yet, the contract that needs to be done and and where the money is, not just because I get paid, but my clients get paid. So if I don't feel like quote unquote doing contracts that day, I am delaying my client's paycheck and I cannot do that. So usually the money stuff comes first. and and so do the contracts first and then do the thing where people are really mad at you and just get it done. And like get out of the shame spiral. That's a another
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Tali: Hm.
Kate McKean: thing I learned is that you will be very late on things and you will be very sorry. And you just have to go
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: and say, I am very late on this and I am very sorry. And and just do it and like break
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: the shame spiral. And I say that to every publishing person I know because I know editors are in that shame spiral too. And it's like we have all been there. Just give me the answer I know is already coming. Like just reject the thing I know you're gonna reject, even though it's been 18 months. Like just it's okay. I give you
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: amnesty. Like I don't hate you. and I'm just like, and I've always found that I have to admit immediately when I'm wrong. Like I'll be wrong about something. Be like, no, this fell off my radar. no, you know, like I'm telling you everyone the worst things because those are the things that weigh the w heaviest on my mind. when I open my to do list in the day because those are the things that need to be done the most. and then I balance that out with like how can I keep my brain alive for the rest of the day? Like I need to do a an enjoyable thing. Like I'll go read for 45 minutes on the couch or I'll I'll go hunt down that person that t subject matter or that topic I am interested in so that I can balance my life as like a human and also all the things I need to do in a day. and The li the less you want to do it, the more you have to do it. You just just you just you have to do it. Just like just
Tali: That's a great point. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: not only just get it out of the way, but the less you want to do it, the more you have to do it right this minute.
Tali: Yeah. And I think that that's probably why it's so important that we love this industry so much because the job truly is all encompassing. It it like I was lying in bed with my husband two nights ago and it was eleven forty five and I said, Okay, I'm shutting my laptop, not looking at it again. I swear it's going away. Twelve nine. Okay, I'm just gonna send two quick emails and then I swear, I swear it's going away. It it's never ending, you know? I even if I reply to all of my emails for that day and I get back to the editors about negotiations and everything is tied up. I can still make rights sheets for my clients. I can still,
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm.
Tali: you know, research scouts. I can still there's
Lauren Khan: There's always work. Yeah.
Tali: always things to do. So but I mean, I know that selfishly we really wanna get all the tips for agenting and whatnot, but I a lot of our listeners are writers and so I would love I
Lauren Khan: Are not agents.
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: I think I think maybe we should probably shift to also some advice for writers. So I guess I'd love to start with what are you seeing in the industry right now? What are you seeing, you know, in terms of what's getting snapped up, what kinds of projects are doing really well right now? And how does that translate to authors who are drafting right now? Should they take any of that into account? How should it influence their writing?
Kate McKean: I d I'm a a a big proponent of not following trends. because once the writer can spot a trend, those books were written five years ago. You know, they were started five years ago, they went through three years of work and a year of querying and two years of of of of production, and that's probably more than five if I were to do that math. and and you You can't start now and write the thing you see selling a lot, because you will be too far behind. And that doesn't mean you throw y you don't take any information from the market because you are trying to talk and sell to a person in a store who wants to buy a book or a librarian who wants to stock a book. so I think that it can be useful to look and see what there's a lot of. And maybe veer away from it. I think there was something on Book Riot or or Lit Hub or Electric Lit that was like, these are the 50 romanticy books we're most excited about this fall. And I was like, fifty. Woof, that's a lot. And so
Tali: Ha ha
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: while I think that romanticy is here to stay, I think that readers have a lot of choice. And I might not suggest to any of my clients that they start today on a brand new romantic. there are lots of fantasy books where there's some kissing in it. You know, so it's like don't ever it's not that you can't ever have a romantic subplot or that you can never write fantasy. So those things aren't going away either. But if you want to pitch it as a romantic, that is something that would be harder now than it was three to five years ago.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: So I think that it's useful for the reader for the writer to like Find the Venn diagram of the thing that they're super passionate
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: about and the thing readers wanna read about and like where does that overlap and then go there.
Tali: Hm. That's a really great point. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I love the Venn diagram approach. That's actually one of my favorite like exercises when I'm trying to think of because we're both writers as well. Trying to think of my next idea. I just write. like binge right just like out of my brain everything I love and like just try to start finding connections. And and honestly what you said is is so correct. Like from a literary agent's perspective, the amount of romancy I see in my inbox that just it it starts to, my eyes start to like everything blurs. Like my vision blurs when I read it because it sounds exactly the same over and over again. in so i incredible advice. so in going deeper then on like this Venn diagram, if someone were to where they're listening to this episode, they're like, okay, I'm gonna take this episode and I'm gonna start like working on my next idea. What would what is like the first thing that they should do? Like write down like where should they find this market information? Should they go to a bookstore? Should they get on publisher's marketplace? What do you think?
Kate McKean: Think they gotta write the book first. You know? And I and maybe that's not that's not easy advice to give and or follow. but I I okay, so if they're gonna do market research period, let's w answer that as you asked it, then they should go look at bookstores and they should just wander around a bookstore and like make friends with a librarian and be like, What do you I you know, like think about like try to shop for the book that you are writing. Like go talk to a librarian and be like, I really want a generation ship space opera with dogs. You know? is that a thing? And then they'll say, like, well, you know, th they will suggest books to you. And you can use that information to to dissect and like interrogate the thing you want to do. And sometimes when there are no books about the thing you're writing, that is a sign that the reader does not want a book about that. you know, where it's like at home dentistry for your lizard. Like no one needs that's not I'm making up the most ridiculous things of of course.
Lauren Khan: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: But like when there's a what I say, like a hole on the shelf, like sometimes the reader doesn't want that filled and they'll just like Google it, you know,
Tali: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: or that's just not anybody's taste. but you can you can try to look for the thing that you want to write and see what's out there. And use that information. You're never gonna get like a bright green light or a bright red light. You're just gonna add to the your knowledge base and then go forth and do whatever you can.
Tali: Yeah. And I love that you bring up that just because there's a gap, it doesn't mean that there's a demand for books that fall within
Kate McKean: Mm.
Tali: that gap. It's funny because I see this in my query in box where we always say we want high concept, we want a unique premise, and I see these books that they're very unique, but not in the way that maybe the market is looking for, because you can't just take
Lauren Khan: Bit too unique.
Tali: exactly you
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: just take a bunch of elements that don't go together. You try to mesh them together and But this reminds me of a topic that, you know, can be a bit polarizing among agents, and that's the topic of comp titles. And writers, I love comps. Writers
Kate McKean: Mm, yay, cops.
Tali: have so many questions about comps because it can be really difficult. I remember when I started writing, I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing about how to pitch a book. And my understanding was that a comp just had to be similar globally to your book, and I couldn't find anything. That was like that. And I was really struggling. I was even I was contacting bookstores and asking them, Do you know of any books that are similar to this? And just drawing blanks. So what camp are you in for comps? Are you in the camp of, you know, you can say it it mimics the oppression of blood over bright haven? And the and taking small elements. Do you think that comps should be more universally kind of comparable to your book? What are what are your thoughts?
Kate McKean: I'd say that my least favorite comps are what I call Franken comps, which are just like, it takes the setting from this and the theme of that and the font, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you have built Frankenstein's Monster, and I don't know what that thing does. And nine times out of ten, it's because I'm not familiar with all of those books. And I will never n any single agent is never going to be familiar with all of those books, even if they're incredibly well versed in that genre. It's just it's just st it's just statistically unlikely. and that's okay because I can kind of s I can always see what the writer is trying to do. And I can take whatever information from that I can and and and and add it to all of the other information in the query. And so then I'll just like if I don't know any of the comps and then that's fine. And I'm just reading the query and like, do I think it sounds cool? Do I wanna read it? Do I think I could sell it? All those questions are fine. And if I get to the next stage where I like really love the sample or I really like the full, I'll go into those comps again and be like, what are those books? Is this accurate? Can I use this? do I need to look for others? Because I think it's fundamental that the the writer understands what comps are used for. And I think there's two ways. Like for for the query stage, comps or vibes. What are the vibes of your book? What is the reading experience like? Because The writer doesn't know any sales. They can't find it out. They can't say to me that it's gonna sell you, you know, just because this book sold this many, my book is gonna sell this many. That it should not be their goal. and so at the at the query stage, tell me what it feels like to read your book and how would you describe your book to your best friend to get them to read it or any book, you know, it's just it's like this, but with that, you know, and it can be that construction, and that's fine. It doesn't have to be, but like how would you convince your best friend to read a book you really, really love? What would you say to them and how would you give them other titles that that would help them understand what the reading experience would be like? and then after the query stage, comps are sales. And that's when you work with a professional, your agent, to say, okay, let's use these two books for a comp, but not this third one, because I can see on book scan that it didn't do that great. So we're just gonna not do that one. And then I just like work with my client because they've read things that I haven't read and vice versa. And I have access to the sales information but the best that we can. and then we use those to give them to the editor so that they can plug it in to the PL magic number machine. And that helps predict future sales of the book that they were hoping to sell. And it it it checks off the things on the list that the editor needs it to check off and we want to help our case as much as we can with that editor by giving the most valuable comps. But that's like that's the second the next level thing that writers at the query stage don't know and shouldn't don't have to know anything about. And I may be the only person who feels this way as an agent, but like that that's how I s that's how I use comps in my my day to day life.
Tali: Yep. No, I agree. And especially with the point of, you know, we're not gonna know all the comps and often writers list comps that maybe I've heard of but I haven't read them, maybe I have no idea what they're about. And so I think that there's kind of a big focus on getting the comps right and you know, I'm so confused, what do they mean? But at the end of the day, for me at least, it comes down to the premise and to the strength of the writing at a craft level and you know
Kate McKean: Absolutely.
Tali: So what are some things that you look for in terms of writing on a craft level? What are some deal breakers that if you see in the opening pages, you're setting it aside? And what are some things that really pull you in?
Kate McKean: it's always easier to say the things that like are deal breakers to me. and I also like to iterate that there really aren't things that are like I would read one sentence and never a single sentence more, because that strikes fear into the heart of writers. They're just like, if I get one
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: sentence wrong, I'll never get an age it. but I definitely have read so many first pages of things that I have can recognize things that I see so often that they are a little boring to me. And one is just like Starting a story at 6 a.m. when the character gets out of bed and makes coffee and
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: looks in the mirror and says,
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Kate McKean: my gosh, my sandy blonde chin level hair is very messy today. And like, you know, like it's like
Tali: Ha ha ha.
Kate McKean: using using a mirror reflection to report
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Tali: Hm.
Kate McKean: what a character looks like. Like, I don't care what kind of coffee you're drinking. I find that
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: the more kind of like brand names or like mod mon what's the word? Like monikers of of of characterization. Like she picked up her Louis Vuitton. Like there are lots of people who carry a Louis Vuitton bag. You can have that be characterization, but that is not all of characterization. You know? I also never need to know what kind of wood a table is made out of.
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: Like while and that's not like an opening pages thing, but 99% of the time a writer tells
Lauren Khan: Ha
Kate McKean: me what kind of wood a table is made out of, like I take it out. Because why? People think it's descriptive, and sometimes it can be. It does matter sometimes. If it's a pine
Tali: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate McKean: table in the Versailles or a mahogany table in a hut, like it can matter. But it doesn't. and I think that i first pages are really tough and there isn't one way to do it. But the thing I'm looking for is to go, I want this like little spark of pleasant confusion. You know, like I want to I want to want to know more. And you
Lauren Khan: Mm.
Kate McKean: can't do that with tricks because you can just see the tricks. and you do that by starting with maybe an interesting question, not literally a question, like not literally a question mark on the
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: end of your first sentence, but like what is the reader Trying to figure out on that first page and how can you draw them into the story? And what is the character trying to figure out on that first page? and it's very, very, very hard. And I also suggest to writers many times that you just start writing and then you're gonna end up cutting like the first twelve to twenty-five pages that you write. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but a lot
Tali: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate McKean: of times your real first page is like n 3,000 words in and the the beginning it was just throat clearing. And like so look for that. Like spend less time focusing on that first sentence before you've written it. And then just start and then maybe you find your first sentence later on, six pages later.
Tali: That's such a great point. Yeah, and the beginning,
Lauren Khan: Amazing advice.
Tali: it's the toughest part to draft. I mean, you know, even in my own work, I probably redraft my beginnings twenty plus times and then I cut it and start again because it's just not it's not interesting enough. It's not quick enough. It's not raising that question that you bring up. And I think that a lot of the time also writers focus on, you know, having a first line that hooks you. on having that, you know, that that just cliffhanger at the end of it or these these small
Kate McKean: Mm.
Tali: tricks, but really it's about kind of the bigger picture and how does it all come together and what's the reading experience like. So yeah, I love that you bring that up. And I'm wondering okay, so you've found the query that draws your eye, you've offered the writer accepts your offer. What does your editorial process look like and what do you take into account when you're polishing up a manuscript for editors?
Kate McKean: You know, it's it's really changed over the course of my career. in the beginning I w I really heavily edited and not a like I will fix your book way or I will change your book into the this perfect vessel or you know, but I had more time to more heavily edit. And I don't have that time anymore. And so I definitely do only focus on the kind of queries that I can not I I don't s I definitely do not sign somebody up and send it out the next day. It's never that's basically never happened to me. but if I see something that I like that I cannot afford time-wise to give it the attention it deserves, that I probably I'm not the right agent for it. because then that person would just be waiting forever and ever for me to have this big chunk of time I just don't really have. but I also what I'm looking for when I'm working editorially with a client is that I wanna teach them. So that I don't have to do it for the next book? Like it's selfish. But
Tali: Yeah. Yep.
Kate McKean: and I'm saying that kind of as a joke, but I can't fix all the books and I want to teach my clients not the right way to write a book, but to say, Hey, you know, when we let's start on page seven, because that's when it really gets interesting. So next time you write the book, look at your beginning again and like, is it there or is it a couple of pages later? Or, you know, you think you h you have s really told the reader the stakes on page six, but it comes on page eighty-five for me, you know, and then you're like, next time let's look and see where the real like where the real stakes come in so that you can build your story in that way the next time. And it's again it's not for me to like get out of doing work, but I have been in situations where I've done a heavy edit on a book and then it comes around the time for the next the author's next book or the option book and the editor's like, whoa. Where did this come from? I'm like, it's because the pages you saw were heavily edited with me and my client for like two years. And I'm like, I don't want
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: to be in that situation. It doesn't help anyone. And again, I'm not
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: saying I have any magic editorial powers, but it I'm I need to be honest and I I'm I'm trying to work with an author's skill set, not to fix books. Like I don't I'm not I don't fix books.
Tali: That's a great point.
Lauren Khan: hundred percent. We talk about this a lot offline, like just finding great writers. Like it can it can be a great idea, but if if to me it's not great writing, like I'm not here to teach you how to do that. Like I'm not I don't get paid like to teach you how to write like unless we sell this. So
Kate McKean: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Khan: I think that's great. And I think you know that's where as a writer like Querying writers that are listening, like do all you can. Like you truly need to do all you can before you start submitting it to agents. Cause I think sometimes writers think, well, an agent will like take it to the next level. And like that's
Tali: Exactly.
Lauren Khan: really not what we're here for. so and you wanna give your work the best chance, you know.
Kate McKean: And I like a a lot of questions of like, how do you know? Like, how do you know when it's done? And
Lauren Khan: Yeah.
Kate McKean: I I've always said to authors, like, when you have that when you there's like two little voices in your head. One is like, this is horrible and you'll never sell it. And that's just fear and anxiety, and you should not listen to that, you know? And like that's just that little devil on your shoulder that's trying to get you to take the easy way out and like stop writing, because stopping writing is much, much better than starting writing. but
Tali: Ha ha
Kate McKean: When you have this like gut feeling that you're like, chapter two feels weird. You know, like or you know, like, I don't know if the ending is the way I want it to be, you have to stop and listen to that little voice and interrogate it and look at it and try to look at it as honestly as you can outside of the anxiety of, I'll never get this done, it'll never get published, I've wasted so much time, I wanna do this now. You know, all these feelings that every writer feels, And and address it the best you can. And then when you when you've addressed all those little things you think you need to address, that's when you are done. And
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: then other people can come in and help and show you things you just didn't see because you you cannot see everything about your own book. And like that is a advanced kind of author vibes and intuiting your process and all these kind of things, but that's the point you you're trying to get to. I
Tali: Yeah.
Kate McKean: think in your in self editing.
Tali: Yeah. No, that's great.
Lauren Khan: Yeah, that's su that's great advice. And I know Tally and I have definitely come across those chapters in our own writing where we're just like, Ooh, this is let's just save it for another day. And I'm like, you need to address this. You have to address this. Exactly.
Kate McKean: Y that day's gonna come. Yeah.
Tali: I know. I know. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, I mean not not letting that critical little voice because while I was I was recently editing my manuscript that's hopefully gonna go on submission very soon. And I'd just be texting Lauren and saying, I hate this. This is the worst. Okay, maybe at the fifty percent mark it's okay, but this is awful and you know, just silencing that voice. But I would love to talk about you as a writer as well. So well write
Kate McKean: yay. I currently hate
Lauren Khan: Yes, please.
Kate McKean: my book right now too. So
Tali: What are you working on? I'd love to know. And then I'd love to know about right through it. And you have a picture book. I'm just so interested in all the things.
Kate McKean: write? the
Lauren Khan: And your newsletter, all the things.
Kate McKean: newsletter. I just
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: finished writing today's newsletter before I started talking to you guys. I love writing the newsletter. I've been doing it for like six, seven years now and it's so much. And I like I'm gonna run out of things to talk about one day for sure. And I'm like already getting to be like, did I already use this picture? But anyway,
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: I really I I do really like the actual writing part. doesn't mean I do it all the time or as n as much as I should. but when I get away from the all of the anxiety voices and the you know busyness and the ugh this actually is not that fun, just start with the blank page. Like I I really enjoy the the writing part of it. So I've I've written like five or six or eight books that didn't sell, like just a ton of things that didn't sell and that's always very surprising to people because they're like, Well, aren't you a magical literary agent who can get whatever she wants? And I'm like, No, I'm not. Nobody is. Like, no, it took me seven years to get a book deal with my own agent. 'cause I have an agent. His name is Michael Barrett. He's fantastic. but I, you know, I am just a writer like everybody else. I don't have any magical powers. I do have a lot of experience in the publishing industry. And that does give me some some perspective. But it n isn't gonna tell me what book to write that will definitely get published. So all the novels I've written have not been published, and there's three. And so I'm gonna write another one. and and it's a big messy thing right now because my writer's group is making me pants it instead of make an outline because I'm an outline queen and I they're just like you can't this time, and I'm having a whole lot of fun, but it's gonna be a a horrible second draft. Like tackling that second draft is gonna absolutely kill me. But I don't even have the first draft yet. So right now I'm calling it Secretaries on the Moon, because it's like a alternate history, 1950s, what if there was a moon colony but it was run by like Joan from Mad Men. and I don't even know what's gonna
Lauren Khan: Huh? Amazing.
Kate McKean: happen in it, but I'm having a grand time because
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: those are things that I love. I love mid century NASA like space race culture. I love women in in the workplace and I le in that era. and I like science fiction and and space travel. So like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna see what happens. I I I don't know. The Russians might show up. I really just don't know. And then I'm
Lauren Khan: I love that.
Kate McKean: sending today the hopefully final draft of my next picture book to my agent to send out. and I was thinking about it la we were on I'm on like draft like fifteen or twelve 25 or something like that of this thousand-word picture book. And I was thinking to myself last night, I was like, this is dumb. This is not good. This is not a good idea. No one's gonna like this. And I'm just gonna stop telling myself that and then let somebody else tell me that. You know, it's kind of like Yes.
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Lauren Khan: Yep. And that's when you know it's ready. When you're like, this is actually the worst thing I've ever created. It's ready for sub.
Kate McKean: Exactly. Yeah, it's like you look at something really, really good and you're like, mine is so far away from that. And you're
Tali: Ha ha.
Kate McKean: like, and you know what? It might not sell. Okay, I'll write another one. Because I want to do that part. And like I
Lauren Khan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate McKean: may never sell
Tali: Is that true?
Kate McKean: another book ever in my life as a writer. And that would suck. I would not like that. But I'm gonna write another book.
Tali: Yeah, that's the way to go. That's that's what
Lauren Khan: You have to.
Tali: writers do. Exactly, exactly. And I mean, I want to turn to write through it just for one second because I think it is such a valuable resource for writers. So good.
Lauren Khan: have it on my shelf. It's amazing. I love it.
Kate McKean: Thank you.
Tali: So without, you know, giving away too many spoilers, are there any teasers or tidbits you can share? And listeners, please pick up Write Through It by Kate McKean. Fantastic resource.
Kate McKean: Thank you. I had so this the book came out of my newsletter kinda, you know. I write started writing my newsletter, not with like, I can turn this into a book in my mind, but not not having that in my mind. And I really spent a long time being like, Well, what do I have to say that hasn't already been said by these incredibly smart people who have already written books about how to get a book deal and how to write a book and what do literary agents do? and like Courtney Mom's book, The Before and After the Book Deal, is fantastic. And for a little while I was mad. I was like, That's the book I wanted to write. But then I was like, wait. I she's just not writing this book at me. It's a fantastic book. Like, it's fine. And I got over that. and then I really found the way into it for me, which was listening to the my readers on my newsletter who would really respond when I would talk about the feelings of writing. And this like, Yeah, your book's done when you hate it. You know, like And that like everybody feels completely lost and everybody feels like they're doing it wrong. And this is like literally everybody feels this way, or a lot of people do, and that that's the normal. And that nobody realizes that because we all write in isolation and we don't talk about the hard things. And so while there's there's a lot of really practical things in right through it, including my actual book propo proposal for that book is in the back of that book. If you're writing nonfiction, you can like literally see the book proposal. And I have a lot of completely fictionalized but not far from the truth query letters, good and bad, in the back of that book. there's lots of practical stuff, but there's a lot of hand holding. And I've gotten a lot of feedback that that's help been really helpful of just being like, yeah, this sucks. But we're gonna do it anyway. But because this is the other
Tali: Mm-hmm.
Kate McKean: part we like. We love books, you know, and like And that's what I've really wanted to do with it and I and I'm I'm really glad that that resonated w has resonated with people.
Tali: Yeah. No, it really does. I think it's funny. I posted this short Substack note, I don't know, maybe a week ago now. And I don't know why this thought just came into my head, but I said, you know, life's hard. Make it harder by writing a book. And
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: it seems like it's really resonating with people. So I think that that mentality is, you know, very relatable to writers.
Kate McKean: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's even voice to that. Nobody you know, it's like every time you say it and somebody hears it, that just makes it you're taking a little pressure off their shoulders, I think.
Tali: Exactly. That's so true. Well, I would love to know some of the books that inspired you. What are some of your favorite
Lauren Khan: Yes.
Tali: fiction, nonfiction, craft books? All of the books.
Kate McKean: Bird by Bird and Lamotte, obviously, the GOAT, you know, just getting permission to write a shitty first draft is life changing. And I didn't hear it as many times as I read that book before I started really writing, where I was like, I'm gonna get it right the first times and then I won't have to edit it. And you're like, No, no one does that. Not
Tali: Ha ha ha
Kate McKean: for you. and so that's something I like Turn to and and remember and kind of use as a touchstone. And it's you know, so many people also really love that book. I really I'm looking at my bookshelf which is next to me and it is so hard to f to pick any of these books because it's kind of like The the books are always there. And you can always have one that's gonna help you that moment. And there's been a books
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: that have helped me in specific moments and books that, you know, made me want to be a writer and books that changed my life when I was a kid. And and and it's so hard to f it's so hard to pick a f I can't pick favorites. I do remember reading Michael Chabin's Mist The Mysteries of Pittsburgh, which is like his first book, which was his MFA thesis, and being like sit down, like come. on how can you write this fantastic book like first out
Tali: Ha ha ha ha.
Kate McKean: of the gate and I was so mad about it but it also made me just like absolutely love him and I
Tali: Mm.
Kate McKean: know that the the amazing adventures of Capillary and Clay really changed me as a reader. I also really, really like books about publishing, which is like my niche interest is like I
Lauren Khan: Mm. Same.
Kate McKean: guess I don't have anything else interesting in my life, but
Lauren Khan: Ha ha
Kate McKean: I really like The Best of Everything by Ronna Jaffe. This about women trying to break into publishing in the fifties, the forties and the fifties and it it it's really highlights this it's this not the that the s not the struggle of nice white ladies in the city, you know, 'cause that's a lot of what pub the history of publishing is. but women in breaking into traditionally men's work or the workplace at all post war in America. Is some is a niche interest of mine and I'm always like I always love a book where someone has told a woman c she can't do it and then she goes and does it anyway.
Tali: Hmm. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, well,
Lauren Khan: Mm-hmm. That's that's a great subgenre.
Kate McKean: Yeah.
Tali: I mean, this has just been absolutely incredible, Kate.
Lauren Khan: Yeah, it's been amazing.
Tali: Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. I think we've shared so many useful tips and tricks for writers and agents alike. So I think that there's a lot of value in what you've said. So thank you.
Lauren Khan: Thank you so much.
Kate McKean: Thanks so much. It's great to talk to you both. can't wait to hear even more of your episodes.
Tali: And thank you all so much for watching. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Pros Pros Podcast. And remember to check back next Tuesday for a new episode.
