JOY OFIRA: So Darren, welcome. I'm so excited to have you.
Darren King: Thank you, Joy. I'm really happy to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.
JOY OFIRA: Awesome. So we were chatting just a little bit before we started and was saying how this sort shift the show is to start to about the the actual experience of having a happening in your life, that feels outside the norm. This could be anything. that someone would consider quote-unquote paranormal or supernatural or even spiritual or some kind of experience that you are one person before the experience and then you're another person after the experience. Now sometimes that can feel like immediately you have shifted. Something has changed and it's big and sometimes it feels like wow that was just something weird that happened and you kind of file it away. and it isn't something that feels so important at the moment, but then later may come up. So that's kind of where I've been headed. And your work deals so much with the nature of reality, the nature of experience, so different directions, ⁓ a lot them around ⁓ NHI ⁓ ⁓ UAP, that kind of thing, we also discussed as potentially sort of a gateway drug to more expansive discussions about experience and the nature of reality. So with that, I'll hand it to you and say, are there any of your own personal experiences you would like to talk about at first or even just your thoughts?
Darren King: this is always an interesting question when people ask me because there's a plethora of options to choose from and so I'm always sort of selecting amongst that and I would also say it's interesting because as I live more life, I find that the things I encounter now in experience recontextualize that happened much earlier. So sometimes something might happen two weeks ago and it gives me insight into something happened when I was seven years old or something, which is fascinating and inevitably leads to the sense of enchantment about the nature of reality that there's so much more going on than we realize and I end up realizing that there seems to be more of a setup than we sometimes realize which isn't to say that it's outside of what I am but I will sort of get to that in the nature of our conversation in terms of how I sort of experience myself as being distributed across different levels of reality I can tap into different components of that but if I were to pick
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: The first one I would want to point to in terms of a discombobulating and reorienting kind of experience I had. It would be about 20 years ago, just over 20 years ago. Actually, was traveling across the country with my really young family at the time. My wife at the time was pregnant with our son and we staying in a hotel and in the morning I awoke to find a female ⁓ figure entity at the end our bed. There's two beds are our young daughter who was just three was in the bed next to us. Then my wife and I were in the other bed and I woke up and initially your brain just tries to wrap its around something in terms of explaining what it is. So at first I thought, is that our daughter? But it was too tall to be our daughter. I out of bed and sort of moving towards this being. And it then turned to me. And what ⁓ saw or I interpreted as seeing was that.
JOY OFIRA: Right?
Darren King: she slash it looks surprised. sure if that meant surprised that I could see her or surprised that I was awake or both. But I began to move towards her, because she was at the end of the bed, she began to back up towards the wall and the wall was sort of long. Part of the wall was where the two beds were faced up against. And she she passed right through the wall. ⁓ And ⁓ then did something that at the time made no sense to me. And in fact, it sort of makes you not want to talk about it too much because people are going to think this doesn't make any sense. But I later on found out as I studied the lore, speaking of the title of your podcast, that this is actually quite common, that I did something behaviorally that made no sense, which is I turned around to come right back to sleep as if this is no big deal. An entity at the end of the bed that passes through walls just happens every Tuesday. but again,
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: What was so consequential about this experience was that my wife saw it as well. So if she had not seen it, I might have gone to sleep. I might have thought, was that a dream? What was that? Did that really happen? But because she saw it too, she actually shook me out of my stupor and said, what are you trying to do going back to sleep? That sort of brought me back out of kind of hypnotic kind of state. We talked about it and decided, you know, we weren't going to stick around for the continental breakfast after all.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: You know, we then woke up our daughter who this could be related or not, but she had these welts all over her body that she'd never had before and never had after that. Might been an allergic reaction to the sheets or something. But we, know, high tailed out of there, hit the road and about an hour or so later, those welts completely up. So they were completely gone. Now, interestingly, as I turned to come back to bed, my wife saw the being come back through the wall. and then proceed to go down the front of the two beds and through the front door. Didn't open the door, just went through the front door. So that was an experience where I remember this was a period of time where you would go to the front lobby of the hotel and you could use the computer to log on to the Internet. And I sent some emails to friends and family. You're not going to believe what happened. And everyone's like, wow, yeah, how's the weather there?
JOY OFIRA: Sure. ⁓ yeah.
Darren King: It quickly changed the subject, right? And, you know, we called the front desk while we on the road and said, Do you guys have any of having weird things in the hotel? And the girl at the front desk was a bit freaked out, but she's like, No, not that I know of. And it wasn't like it was an old hotel or something. It was like, you know, probably a hotel built in the ⁓ or something. So that was an experience where.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right. Okay.
Darren King: You don't know what to do with it. You know, the being looked mostly human, slightly angular in terms of facial features, but hair. There was a couple elements that also didn't any sense according to the way I understood reality at the time, ⁓ which is when my wife and I compared notes, she actually saw from the mid part of the body up, like the legs were missing. Wasn't the case for me. For me, I did see legs.
JOY OFIRA: Okay.
Darren King: But it was a bit obscure what the body like what the body ⁓ uniform or what she was wearing. couldn't quite tell it was a bit but we both saw, you know, this female head with with blonde hair. But I saw the hair sitting still hanging down to the sides, whereas my wife saw it as blowing as if there was like wind in the room, which there wasn't. So subtle differences, which, again, later on, when I studied the law, I realized that does happen. People can have.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: Three people can have an experience, but they have slightly different renderings of that experience. And I use that word quite, quite intently. ⁓ more I could get to, especially about my understanding of the nature of reality much later, but I'll stop there in of an experience that again, initially I didn't know what to do with it. It wasn't until much later when I studied the phenomenon, the UFO phenomenon, that I recognized that number one, humanoid. and even quite human looking figures are very common, actually. They're not always great aliens. ⁓ And this behavioral strangeness is quite common as well.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right, yeah, is so common that more than one person experiences the same thing at the same time, or rather has an experience ⁓ the same time that it seems similar, but it's not exactly the same, that each person is sort of receiving the information somewhat slightly differently. tell if this isn't accurate, but it seems like generally the message is sort of the same or. ⁓ the feeling is sort of the same and impression is sort of the same, but it's not necessarily the exact same physical that's the same.
Darren King: Right. Yeah. Which again, raises questions about what is perception, right? And what constitutes perception and what's the difference between perception and reality? And is there a difference in those kinds of things? But yeah, we, you know, we both sort of had the same kind of experience. We were both spooked by it, spooked more than fascinated. And what I also say that and I think this is important to point out because I think this happens to a lot of people.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Number one, again, I was lucky enough that I saw it with someone. Otherwise, I think I would have doubted myself much more. But even beyond that, though, you don't really know what to do with it because it's not something most people know what to talk about. And you sort of file it away in the back of your mind and you have to go on with your life. Otherwise, you think about it constantly. But if you nowhere to know where to put it, nothing to do with it. ⁓ And again, it wasn't so much later.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: that that I began to make sense of it in light of this larger lore. And, you know, she and I also the course of our marriage, when were together, had numerous together. And in fact, again, speaking of recontextualization, looking back, she and I both feel like there was something that us together for the time that we were together. And it's almost like alchemically. Together it created this stew ⁓ sort of set off a paranormal firestorm in some ways We had we had numerous experiences together Over the course of time and it feels like to some degree the more ⁓ I ⁓ room these kinds of outliers The more they could find purchase in my life, which is partly because you know You're you're noticing and not just dismissing. I think a lot of times people literally don't see something in front of them They don't note it because it doesn't fit with the paradigm they were taught about what could be right.
JOY OFIRA: so much, yeah.
Darren King: Or they they have cognitive dissonance. Right. And there's they have very good reasons to not want to think that's there because might think they're crazy. But the more I recognize that ⁓ reality is much stranger than we realize and to a large degree, our perception again is is filtering more than it's letting in. So try to actually take a posture of of
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: have a relaxed sense be very alive to the moment rather than relying on, well, I know what the world is, it's always going to be the same. Instead, like actually have this sense of anticipation of what might arise. And then I've noticed over time that I notice more.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. I mean, there is so much to that, the idea of presence and, being in the moment, that kind of thing. What you were saying before about not even like perceiving it more because you're more open to it. And also, you know, maybe you don't see it because you don't expect it to be there. I mean, who hasn't had the experience even in just real life, like you're not real life. You know what I'm saying? The materialist idea of life.
Darren King: Right. Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: that you are, you're looking for a pencil and you know you set the pencil down and you go and you look and the pencil's not there and you look all over and you're looking, looking, looking, and everywhere you look, you can't find the pencil and you go back to the first place and there it is. And you didn't see it, right? And sometimes people will be like, I know it was there before and then it wasn't there like something moved it. I mean, maybe something didn't move it, but also maybe you just didn't see it, right? And how much of awareness is... ⁓
Darren King: Right. Right. Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: physical and how much of awareness is perception and how it up these questions that even feel Childlike in a you know, I do a child and he'll say something to which is something I remember thinking when I was a child like well I see the color blue and we call it blue and I have this idea of what blue is but how do I know that your
Darren King: Mmm.
JOY OFIRA: perception of blue is the exact same as my perception of blue. Like maybe what you see is red, but we call it blue and that kind of thing. And it makes me think about what you were saying when ⁓ you your wife saw the same thing and you saw something, but you see exactly the same thing. And maybe that's just part of our natural experience as humans, but not really a way to even compare blue. ⁓
Darren King: Mm, right, right.
JOY OFIRA: to discuss blue,
Darren King: This, yeah, this, this is the and people like, you know, Donald Hoffman and Bernardo Castrip that, both tend towards an idealistic view of reality. We'll make that very point that any kind of scientific inquiry we conduct is going to be done through our conscious perception. there's no way you can eliminate conscious perception, right? And then say, what is it really like outside of that? Right. We can't do that. And, and, and furthermore, you know, once you have studied non dual traditions as I have and once you understand that division from one object to another is actually somewhat arbitrary. And when think about the work of someone like Donald Hoffman, he would point out that evolutionarily, and I think this is only part of the picture, but it is part evolutionarily, we have learned to create shortcut icons like on an interface to make our way through the world. And that actually when he's studied this and done mathematical research,
JOY OFIRA: Yeah, sure.
Darren King: those who would have the most robust, detailed, exhaustive perception of reality would be swiftly driven to extinction because there's so much going on that you can't attend to what you need to attend to and you get eaten by lions or you don't find food or whatever. So those people would have died out in the past. So we are the of ancestors who develop these these shortcuts kind thing. So ⁓ once Get to there. That's also a major shift that happens in your understanding of the phenomenon and paranormalty in general because you recognize that you know, and you sort of caught yourself when you said the real world, right? because We realized that we're not actually perceiving a real world. We're actually perceiving interface with a set of icons that dumbed down what's actually out there to make us attend to what we need to basically to perpetuate the species to eat
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right, survival.
Darren King: asleep, like basic things, right? Just to get us there. Yeah. And that's why it's also an interesting time to be alive, because I think as we move towards more of an embrace of something like an idealistic view of the world, then we and because we most of us are not running around in the jungle worried about lions at this point, we actually purposefully design experiments to actually more things and perceive more things. And we're at the cusp of that with some technology now ways that we can really fascinatingly when you disrupt some of the electrochemical activity in the brain, people become more psychic, right? People perceive other things. so, yeah, this question of ⁓ is reality? What is perception? What is that intersection? ⁓ even to what degree are people experiencing different things based on a physiological substrate, which I would even then say that's downstream of something else that's more energetic because
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right. Right.
Darren King: You know when I studied I did was when I was trying to make sense of what this phenomenon was and all the high strangeness I started looking in other fields of inquiry Other sciences to try to see if there's anything You know coming down the pipe there that might help explain this and there was because for you've got physicists like Nima Arkani Hamed Saying that we know it's not a question. It's not a you postulation We know this space-time cannot be foundational. So foundational is space-time is a
JOY OFIRA: Welcome to The Future Lore, where we explore the mysterious with endless curiosity and joy. Today marks the shift in our podcast journey as we welcome our first guest, Darren King, the mind behind Point of Convergence and Liminal Phrames podcasts, which are linked in the show notes, and I most highly recommend. Listening to Darren's work preceded some of my own profound shifts in worldview. He spent years at the intersection where the data meets the magic,
Darren King: as a downstream rendering or an epiphenomenon of a deeper reality structure. So at this point, I think this should be encouraging to experiencers, to people who've had these experiences, because we no longer have to say the only way we know this is real is if it shows up here, right? And it shows up for everybody in a certain way. Yeah. And so it still shows up, but it's no longer the litmus test, right? It was whether or not it shows up in space time and even the notion that space time is the same. And to your point about
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right, in a certain way. Right. synthesizing everything from quantum entanglement to and non-dual traditions, along with a broad and deeper inquiry into NHI or non-human intelligence. But our conversation today isn't just about the mysterious. You know, the experience of the anomalous or even paying attention to it.
Darren King: colors, you know, this is something I realized a while ago that was really interesting. a certain shade actually of color that that only a really small subset of women can see. So no, no man can see it. And a very, very small percentage of women can see it. So that's an example. So like, know, when you talked about your child's question about how do we know blue is blue and all that? Yeah, this is absolutely of it. And this is, again, something else that's
JOY OFIRA: ⁓ right.
Darren King: fascinating when you think about it because not only is we perceive as reality actually a Shortcut rendering but on top of that we know there's many of the animal species that perceive much more of the electromagnetic spectrum than we do You know, yeah, it's yeah
JOY OFIRA: Right. I mean so much I almost feel like almost feel like if my when my friends listen to this episode they'll be like are you sure you didn't talk to this guy before because this is the kind of thing I'm always saying I'm always saying like well you know the mantis shrimp and we know that it has these because of the structure of its eyes we know mathematically that it can see millions and billions more colors than we can and that doesn't mean that the mantis shrimp is some kind of paranormal being can strip away the layers between living inside of one reality and dropping into the next, We're going to talk about how to find your footing when the ground beneath you starts to feel like a dreamscape.
Darren King: Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: It just means the mantis shrimp has a perception that can see more than we can, right? And birds and bugs and other animals can see the UV spectrum or the infrared spectrum. And just because we can't see it with our eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? And just because I can't hear a radio station in my own human ears right now doesn't mean that's not playing either.
Darren King: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. Yeah. And when you start looking at like, again, the implications of what has been discovered through quantum physics, for instance, something like entanglement, which basically demonstrates a couple of things. Number one, that space are not really real because you could have two entangled particles on opposite ends of the cosmos and they will simultaneously reorient based on what the other one does. So not only are they connected somehow when there's no ⁓ physical connection, but
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: We assume that when something somehow responds or corresponds to something else in space, it has to send a signal. And we assume the signal can only be sent at the speed of light. That's as fast as it can go. But this is simultaneous, regardless of distance. Right. And this is where the notion of non-local consciousness even comes up. So know that space and time are not real the way we think they are. They are rendering in a way that we experience them that way. But that's not the way ultimate reality is. And once you Start paying attention to the evidence coming from astronomy and neuroscience and physics. ⁓ Suddenly has been considered an outlier, right? Paranormal suddenly doesn't ⁓ seen that way. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. Right. Right. it also feels like this is something that I started to explore more. And part the reason that I have you as a guest on my podcast is because I was listening to your podcast, especially the episodes that around episode 50 that you did, Liminal Phrames with Nathan, and you were talking about idealism. And I had been to some of your episodes before that. So it wasn't like completely out of left field that these sort of ideas. But there was something about it. that it was like I had been peeling an onion for a long time the layers were pretty thin and then suddenly for reason when I listened to your podcast that time it was just time, like it was ready. Like okay, we're just gonna take it off now. Like we can't wait anymore. So like that layer off and have to tell you that it was very disorienting. I was. It felt sudden even though it wasn't sudden. I'm not saying it wasn't something I could handle, but also felt like, now like, ⁓ I kind of don't what's happening. Like, you know, like I can only do it almost physically show you like it's destabilizing, it's disorienting. It's this moment where things ⁓ are My idea of is shifting and honestly, it feels like the ground under your feet. I just feel like every... Here's where I ask you to like, subscribe, or follow, rate, and review. And now, let's dive in with Darren King. of cliche or idea of how I could describe it is incomplete and and this is of what we were getting into about the idea of experience and sometimes only an experience and you could look at it and say why that experience was the thing that like was like whoa now reality is entirely different why you know but I do feel like weird experiences be more sort of stripping back those layers quickly. I guess I'm getting to the point of how do we reorient after we've had this sense of reality shifted? Like for me, what I did was I started my because I was just like, I need to spend a lot of time figuring this out because much of what you are just saying and so much of what you say on your podcast and so much what I've done in my research and found on my podcast Okay, wow, so this has been the first of what I hope will be many interviews on the future lore and I couldn't have asked for a better guest than Darren King. I hope these conversations help us metabolize the shift toward a new way of being. And as we close, hold on to this. The construct that we live in is meaningful, but it isn't foundational. As Darren reminded us, you are the awareness creating the environment. always sort of the mystery, the history, the science, and then trying to integrate. And I kind of feel from the history, it's a searching for me of well, we've always known this, right? This is old traditions, ancient traditions, know, indigenous traditions, they have known, and that help you reorient. ⁓ And then the science. and can choose to engage with an enchanted reality. Again, check the show notes for Darren's work on Point of Convergence and Liminal Phrames podcasts. They are in the show notes and I promise you won't regret it. I hope you notice the studs behind the wall of your own reality this week. And remember, you are far more powerful, far more strange, and far more connected than you've ever been told. Let's keep exploring. That for me is like the geekery and I'm a nerd and I love that stuff. And I'll be like, do you know what's actually real? is proving it. You that helps me reorient. I'm not sure exactly. I a question, but, can you help sort of bring these things together? how do we think about reality after? ⁓ this wild unknown together. Please support the channel. Drop us a like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell on YouTube. Follow, rate, and review on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Want even more? Visit thefuturelore.com to join our free community and find all of our official links, which are at the future lore with no spaces everywhere. Thanks again for tuning in my loves.
Darren King: Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, it's interesting because
JOY OFIRA: I am so lucky to be here with you to embrace the mysterious and stay curious.
Darren King: I think people find it more discombobulating than others. I remember I was at a meeting in Houston last ⁓ and was a bunch of different people from different organizations involved with UFO research. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Was it at the archives of the impossible?
Darren King: Yes, there was a meeting that happened while that was going on. It was a separate meeting with a with a group of different organizations and people that are academics, as well as, you know, the Galileo team was there different academics like Jeffrey Kripal were there and I was there. And we were talking about the nature of reality. And there's a certain subset of that group of people that were there that are still fairly physicalist, right? They're looking. like astronomically, where are these things coming from? Like they believe that things are happening, but they still think in terms of space aliens. And I'm not saying that's not part of it, it was very clear to me that they were missing an like an entire swath of what this is. And I remember ⁓ at Jeff at one point and we both were like, wow, yeah, there's there's big pieces missing here. So at one point, I just felt the need to sort of speak up and say, OK, but is going on and this is going on and this is related to this and this is going on over here. And, you sort of realize some people go, OK, interesting. And they kind of metabolize it. Other people don't know what to do with what you just said. And for some people, they seem like such categorically different topics that they're not even sure how they relate. know, this is part of the fascination around why UFOs co-arise with Sasquatch and these different ⁓ beings, These things that seem separate and historically, ironically, even these are
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right.
Darren King: All outlier topics they've tended to be studied in isolation. Like you've got the sasquatch people you've got the you know, you got the ghost hunter people and you got the ufo researchers and they tend to not breed or cross pollinate but they really should because And is something we found at skinwalker ranch that they co-arise So somehow there must be some there's a correlation and we need to try to figure out what it's all about But to point you brought up with science Yeah, this is part where
JOY OFIRA: Absolutely.
Darren King: Sometimes people might look at you and say, I know that sounds pretty out there what you're saying. But once you start presenting the evidence one after another, right. OK, there's there's congressional dialogue right now about and what degree will we ⁓ disclose to the public? There's whistleblowers coming saying there have been reverse engineering programs. a secret gatekeeping that's been going on for 80 or 90 years. We've got.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: most people that when they feel comfortable to start sharing their experience, everyone knows someone who's had these kinds of experiences, Exactly, or have had one themselves. And then ⁓ you start looking at science and saying that this notion of reality is quite outdated and not supported by the data. And that's an interesting thing because even I have found when I look at scientists themselves, researchers, physicists even,
JOY OFIRA: or has had one themselves, right? Yeah.
Darren King: I noticed that they often have fairly unscientific subjective to think we must have that wrong. That can't be true. ⁓ Quantum can't be true. Distance must be real. It's not even distance that gets unmoored by this, even the notion of local realism goes out the door. And then people look at you, you're saying reality is not real? Not exactly. Not the way we thought it is. So then...
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: This is something I'm discussing in this book that I'm writing right now. You start looking at the outliers, what we've considered the outliers, right? Sci phenomena, ⁓ NDEs, OBEs, contact with beings, all these things, and you start recognizing they actually pointing to the way reality actually is versus how it renders most of the time, right? And to me, that is where the really fascinating research goes.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, ⁓ there real research going on And treated as though it's not real research, somehow the data is not data, that somehow especially research about experience if you to do any research that subjective qualities, but making it into qualities, right, like you're tabulating data, you're coming up with statistical correlations and things like that, that even though that data is real, real. then is the issue there? It seems to be if a human gives account some kind of mechanistic measurement that is also a kind an account, right, that you can observe, then those two things are an account. They are both an observation. But the human is always assumed to be the unreliable narrator. in some way.
Darren King: Right. Even though again, even when we do that seemingly objective measurement, it's still through our conscious perception. There's no way you can get around that. And yeah, really fascinating results, right? Not just a double slit experiment, but even ⁓ retroactively, right? Like ⁓ you wait and then take the measurement or look at the measurement, it seems to wind back to what would have happened 24 hours ago or something. again, all of these things we assume were the constants of nature.
JOY OFIRA: It's affected. Yeah.
Darren King: undone because of this. And such a degree again that it's so discombobulating for scientists who've been in a certain tradition and have been raised as Westerners like us that they just going, it can't be, there's got to be something else. And yet we have, you know, decades and decades of research, not just in terms of quantum physics, but even parapsychological research goes back for like over a hundred years at this point. ⁓ And there's a signal from Psi ⁓ shows up over and over and over again and yet you still see this again. looks like an unscientific biased perspective that it must be Poor measurement or or bad protocols or something? But ⁓ even when you meta analysis across many different experiments you find it's just as strong so again to me What would say is most of the time most people are walking around with a certain downstream ⁓ reframe notion of reality. what all these data points are pointing towards is the fact that there's a leakage coming through from the way things actually are prior to the re-rendering and perception. And you can again do things to encourage that kind of perception of the deeper reality. So in my case, the second major shift in terms of reorienting my understanding of reality, after I had these accidental, you know, things to me, ⁓ I actually develop protocols that allow me to what I say, you know, exit the construct of space time. It's pretty extreme protocol and you have to do it carefully, but you basically exit any ⁓ normal way experiencing reality and you tap into that unified that that, you know, pre exists before the rendering. And you ⁓ then ⁓ notice something really happening you don't just have different knowledge, but the way of knowing is different. And this is probably the most discombobulating thing I've ever experienced, even more than seeing an entity go through a wall. Because when you come back into the construct, you have this knowing that this is not real the way we think it is. It's still it's still relatively real, right? But it's not really what we think it is. It's certainly not foundational. And the way you know that that's the most ⁓ discombobulating. You know, I remember sort of like coming out and for about an hour, like, you know, some expletives as I was walking around my house, right. Realizing the consequences of what I've just discovered, because it's like from within the construct, within space time, everything renders a certain way. And you can sort of read between the lines and postulate, is there a deeper structure? And again, ⁓ physics telling us there is. But when you actually are in that deeper structure.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: And then you come back into this, you for the first time in your entire life see from outside. even the things relate, how phenomena relate, they relate semantically rather than spatially and temporally. So for instance, when I come back in, the events of my life have reordered based on meaning versus when they happen chronologically. ⁓ including elements that I didn't quite recognize that then ended up happening in the future. So it's like this nested set of all these related data aspects. And some are from when I was five years old, but they might be right next to something that happened when I was 25 years old. And then there's something else that is connected, but I don't remember it. And then it happens like two weeks later. So that tells me that in some way, all of this pre-exists somewhere. But even to say, you're saying time is already finished is the wrong way to look at it because you're still thinking ⁓ terms of space and time. And this, think, is one of the bigger challenges in terms of communicating it to people. And you talked about, like, when you experienced this personally, you of have to go in layers and you have to metabolize one layer before you can go to the deeper layer. ⁓ But I have found that ultimately it's incredibly liberating, actually, and enchanting, a re-enchants reality.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.
Darren King: It liberates any fear you have. One thing that really was clear to me when I came back was recognizing that I am not at all this, right? This is just a downstream rendering of something that's that's not ⁓ in space time at all, therefore can't die, can't be destroyed because it wasn't really created to begin with. It's it's the underlying substrate prior to space time. When you recognize that and you come back and you realize very really that this is is much like a dreamscape is what it's like. It's just a long running dream that we're having together. It's meaningful. It's purposeful, but it's not any more foundationally coherent or permanent than the dream I had last night. And so you come back in and you go, OK, I want to spend the rest of this dream doing the that feel the most compelling. I'm not going to orient by fear because fear. is just ripped out from underneath you because what there to fear any more than something that happens in a dream and you wake up 10 minutes later?
JOY OFIRA: Right. I mean, that is just incredibly profound. It also is like, this your whole life and you're so in it, right? And so different than the standard sort of life that, most people are living on the planet, right? As sort of completely different perspective, a completely different approach, a different base, fundamental, different way of living than most people. you were talking your protocol it's quite intense and you're of leaving the construct entirely ⁓ coming back with this. ⁓ experiential knowing, right, that is so and at the same time sounds somewhat terrifying in a way. Sounds like incredibly liberating, totally liberating, ⁓ also really terrifying. And so ⁓ we were talking about like the layers, right, the layers and the layers you're just preparing and sort of reorienting slowly And then sometimes suddenly, sometimes an will come along and that is more sudden. Like you were talking about like coming back and being like walking around like expletives, expletives, expletives. Like even for you was like, what? Like, how do I, like that's if this is what it really is, then what, right? Even for you in that moment. So for standard listener to think or to consider and about their own experience and their own knowing. Because this tangent kind of goes all the way back where we started was you'll have an experience and it will give you a different. understanding of knowing it's so hard to even talk about in a way because it's the same word right well i knew it before but now i really know it i often will talk to people about this i'll say well i had an intellectual understanding that yeah like everything's connected you know Everything's the same. We're all like one and non-dual and that and you have this understanding and it kind of doesn't matter how deep your intellectual understanding of that goes or your intellectual acceptance of that goes and then there's some other level that's sort of like a surrender. You know what I'm saying? Like you
Darren King: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up knowledge and knowing because you're absolutely right that, you know, we in any language have to choose among ⁓ a pretty blunt edge symbols, right? When we're communicating, right? And
JOY OFIRA: Right? It's like, how do you know it's, I just know.
Darren King: Yeah, yeah. And and so someone will assume when you when I say I knew something that it's like knowing that two plus two equals four or knowing that the sun will rise in the morning. it's not that kind of knowing. It's actually, you know, where I've used this word gnosis to describe. ⁓ because. From that non dual perspective, again, not deducing or inferring, but because non duality means that.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: is one unitive field, actually. The appearance, experience of is an illusion. Right. And so when you are experiencing reality as that oneness, then to know is the same as direct personal experience. So if someone says, I have a stomach Well, how do you know you have a stomach ache? Because I can feel the pain. I guess direct. Right. It's a physiological thing.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: It's kind of like that, even deeper than that, it's not it's not cognitive cerebral knowledge at all. ⁓ And and again, that that's why I really stress that the and this is something I really wrestled with for a long time because I realized I didn't have the language for it. We don't have the language for what I experienced where you come back in and you're like, how is this thing? I know like a hundred compared to. ⁓ everything else I know. Like it's not just knowing, but it's a knowing at a level that undoes everything else or contextualizes everything else. It's the foundation from which everything else builds upon. And it's because again, you're actually and this is the part that's discombobulating, but again, also incredibly liberating because basically not only is this body mind, as we say in Buddhism, finite or you know, it's only what we wear when we're here for so many decades.
JOY OFIRA: Exactly.
Darren King: And we sometimes think, well, I hope when I die that I'll wake up and there'll be something. But the thing is, you're you're already is at now. Right. We just often don't know because we're constrained into this experience. what I experienced was like dropping outside of those constraints and realize is a part of me that has memories from previous lives, has memories from sort paradisal, idealistic, like the most heavenly realms.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Right. And this is one of the really fascinating things that happen is because when that that boundary has become porous, then not only did I experience things when I was out, but even when I came back in, began to have memories drop in from I never experienced in the decades I've been here. So, for instance, ⁓ I telling of my classes this, that I was stopped at a stoplight and I turned and saw this reed
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: growing out of this pond and it was dusk and the sun was hitting it a certain way. It was really beautiful. I immediately ⁓ to myself, ⁓ that's what it looks like on the other side. And then I caught myself and said, what did I just think slash say? Right. Like this is what really happened. Like I'm reflecting on a memory that I don't remember having in a way. You know what saying? It's a ⁓ a paranormal memory in terms of usual cognition and ⁓ history.
JOY OFIRA: Who said that? Right. Yeah.
Darren King: And I remember also when I came back and I for a drive and and I saw a rusty car and I saw a homeless person and I experienced it in a way I've never had before where I was like, what? Why? Why? going on here? Like, ⁓ because in in some of other places I've been to, there's there's no such thing as those things. There's no such thing as deterioration. There's no such thing as, you know, an unequal of wealth and things that. It's just not there.
JOY OFIRA: right.
Darren King: So you come back in here and it's like it slams you like you like you've lived in a palace your entire life where everyone has equal resources and you suddenly go outside the palace and you realize, ⁓ some people don't have as much like it hit me at that level. And so it's ⁓ truly And but again, most overarching liberating because now what I the stuff's interesting yes, UFOs are interesting, but in some ways UFOs themselves as vehicles or objects are the least interesting part of this, right? Because it's it's not just about NHI and what these who these beings are and how that intersects with the occult and how does this all factor in and religious history? who we are actually right did this just I think the the deepest revelation because ⁓ a really deep layer those are all aspects of the same one diamond and and I think even the way we sometimes experience
JOY OFIRA: Right? Right.
Darren King: Otherness as sometimes as a being sometimes as a knowing as overarching guidance or a series guides like all of that renders differently depending on particular configuration of consciousness those things aren't set and and this is why you know when you look at NDEs for instance, the general themes are very consistent, but the details often vary quite a bit right and And so some people say, so then it's not real, It's more like a rendering for you. And I'm like, this is that as well. Believe me, this is that as well. I've experienced experiencing this as that as well. And that's there is. Right. So there's and I don't mean that in a reductive way. mean that in in this unitive right, that is prior to form. It's just as this one, this oneness, this unitive field of awareness. And then. as that original mind deliberately constrains itself in different ways that allows distinction and separation and novelty to arise. The idea of myriad objects and other people, right? All of that arises by a constraining of that original pure awareness. And you realize that there's myriad numbers of levels, you know, from the most base level dense layer like here, the 3D layer. There's myriad numbers right back to that pure awareness field. to some degree, it's ⁓ even how you decide what those are. And because it says plentiful is the number of dreams you could have. And so there have been experiences I've had where I realized there's quadrillions of realities like it ⁓ I've experienced them. Right. Like I can. This really difficult to explain because we don't this is not part of our usual experience. But from that place. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You can see all directions at all times. You can know all times at the same time. You sort of drop into this awareness where you picture this refracting almost like a hall of mirrors where there's like realities as far as you can as you can experience. It's not really seeing. ⁓ And furthermore, every action we take here, every even every thought we entertain has implications and feedback effects in those other realities and vice versa. And ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You experience this all simultaneously and then it's really discombobulating to come back in and have to live in this tiny one little thing that rolls out linear in a linear way. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: You Right? And that you do still need to eat and you got to clean your house and know, you, if you're lucky, you have a cat and you know, there's those things and also that this experience as limited as it is also beautiful. This is also so much, joy and ⁓ wonder and enchantment, as you before, to be experienced. here. And also, what you were just saying made me think about, the idea of, the constraint is the point, right, to ⁓ the constraint and this experience as human is the point, because otherwise, why would it exist? And sometimes, like, while you were talking, I thinking just in a very prosaic kind of way of, like, say that you had everything that a human could have and you could do anything with your life, right? you had every kind of resource of any kind. You have all the health, you have all the wealth, you have all the connection, you have all the friends, you have everything that the oneness would have, right? That all of reality would have. And you have it and you're a person. And so what are you gonna do? It's like, well. if you just think about it from a human perspective, most people are on the hamster wheel so much that like, well, first I would just do nothing, right? I would just rest. would lay around. would whatever, whatever. But everybody knows that people who retire and go nuts, right? They just don't have anything to do. And they need something to do. constraint of life, even constraint of life as a human, you can see where There's beauty in that, right? people will say, well, this is my purpose. Well, a purpose is a constraint. Even if you find ⁓ much growth ⁓ connection ⁓ wonder and abundance within that constraint, it's still not sitting around going well, I guess I'm everything right now.
Darren King: Yeah, I mean, in other words, for any experience to arise, there has to be constraint because without constraint, there's no differentiation. to point, what it really comes down to, and this is, again, I understand why it's hard for some people to kind of postulate how this would be. But when you the pure potentiality of every possibility, it actually in itself is kind of boring, right? Because ⁓ you don't ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You don't get to really experience anything pragmatically. It's more like potentiality. Now I do want to say that is a certain way that you that reality that is incredibly profound. the way I often describe it is if you want to describe as an experience, it's the experience of not even the possibility of lack.
JOY OFIRA: Mmm.
Darren King: Like it's and it's not really bliss that sometimes word like in Hindu or Vedic kind of philosophy. We talked about bliss, but ironically bliss ⁓ really understandable in light of like agony or the opposite of bliss. Right. Like ⁓ all about this continuum. Yeah. And so it's it's not really bliss in that sense, but it is bliss like neo blissful in the sense that or pseudo blissful in the sense that for the first time in your life.
JOY OFIRA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Like a euphoria. You
Darren King: don't even know what it's like to imagine something missing or even the ⁓ of something missing, right? Because this is something Buddhism talks about. There's couple of different kinds of suffering. know, they're suffering from the things you want don't have. And then there's a suffering from the fear of loss of the things you do have. Right. And the impermanence is what this what this reality is about. This reality. And some people might lament that. But again, this is just one downstream tiny refraction of
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of a hall of mirrors that you get to experience. from that perspective, the limitation is what creates the spice, right? Because it's sort of like saying, you know, I want to have Mexican food today, Chinese food tomorrow, know, Indian food the next day. What I don't want to do is just mix them all together and have all of them, right? That's not an enjoyable experience. It's the differentiation that becomes interesting. Or when musicians say,
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Okay, now with digital instrumentation, we could use 500 sounds. But what's more interesting is we're going to be a bluegrass band, right? We're going to use these same few instruments and we're going to just make as many albums as we can. And there's still myriad directions you could go in, even within that limitation. So I'd say that's what this reality is about.
JOY OFIRA: Like all the sound is chaos, but of the sound in a directed way is music.
Darren King: Right, or a huge part of music, of course, is the rests in between the notes. We often don't think about that, right? So the presence of all notes, all sounds simultaneously an of a kind, but it's not the same thing as what we experience as music here. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. It's so interesting. Like while you're saying that, I started thinking about frequency waves generally. I was thinking about sound waves and then it kind of expanded that any wave order to be a wave has to reach the top and the bottom. point where it's switching and then it's going like back down and back up. But there's that full potential constrained within the wave of the note or any frequency.
Darren King: Yeah. Right. And again, it's of the way the experience tends to render here, we think about, no, I'm getting older. I'm going to die. Right. But that's just ⁓ the of one wave that inevitably picks up somewhere else. And it's actually multidimensional wave. And this is definitely talked about in non-dual traditions. There's this sense that you can't really talk about any experiential quality without talking about its contrast. That's the only way it actually has of independent meaning is because of what it's in contrast to. ⁓ so at some point, you kind of, for a couple of different reasons, number one, you surrender to that, to the full waveform, right? ⁓ you realize you can't stop it. This ⁓ what happens, right? But also... ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Darren King: a re-identification that happens, a re-contextualization that happens where you recognize, am the fullness of the sound wave. I am not just one little crest coming over the top. ⁓ lifetime might be that. But once you again can experientially know that as a kind of gnosis, not as a, that's an I like, I'm gonna try to like nod my head towards it. ⁓ But when know it deeply, You kind of surrender and and furthermore. This is talked about a non-dual traditions I absolutely had this experience where there's knowing there's experiencing at some point the knower drops out There is just the arising of phenomena in the environment and you are all of it Right, and this is what I mean when I say that's partly where you realize that the the fear of loss the fear of death the fear of pain are gone because you just ⁓ the awareness that undergirds the entire environment of of all manifest existence. And once you experience yourself as that, you feel indestructible and there's just this enjoyment of witnessing, again, without even the of
JOY OFIRA: Hmm. It's just so amazing. I'm just thinking about it from the layers of, well, there's belief, and the belief feels like that knowing that we were talking about earlier, that sort of intellectual knowing, that's belief. And then there's what we might use a word, truth. Those are the things that sort of sit more. integral somehow to your body or something you're just no that's true that's the gnosis knowing ⁓ so there's belief knowing the truth knowing and then there's something under that which i feel like is what you were just talking about that's all of it and ⁓ yet none of it i don't am i making any sense at all ⁓
Darren King: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's the ability to perceive everything, but not identify with anything. So you have this sense that why even the notion of death in some ultimate sense becomes an impossibility, because you realize you are manifest thing. You are pure awareness that undergirds all of that.
JOY OFIRA: Mmm. Yeah.
Darren King: no longer you're no more at risk of the things that are manifesting then you are at risk of the things that are manifesting in your dream that you had last night and and and this is is what's about it is that you you experience yourself as I am you have this sense of me that never goes away, but the context blows out So it's like that these little parameters right like I'm this is who I am. This is there and this is there and
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: This is me. I am. I am. I am. Now I'm out here. Right now. Now it's this. Now it's everything all at once. And that never goes away. There's never even like a moment of pause or a reorientation. There's just more information. Right. And even more memory that suddenly comes in. Or we experience it as memory. Right. This is something else I've recognized is that some of what I experienced is sort of transhuman in a way, because
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right.
Darren King: We have just like, when you're translating something from, say, the Inuit have, you know, 20 words for snow and we kind of have one or two in English. So you really have to dumb it down in a similar way. The things that we that register here, right, that we so we can acknowledge something tends to have to come through a certain narrow palette. Right. ⁓ something else I would say about that is that most that is emotional, not cognitive.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right.
Darren King: And so I think as Westerners, and this is something I teach in my classes too, like we really need to embrace the somatic experience. And even again, with the psi phenomena research that's been done, it's usually people's bodies that know, right, precognitively, sometimes the mind, but often not. In fact, there's really fascinating research that's been done where, and this again shows, I think hints at the fact that we are distributed across different layers of reality.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: But we have the experience of I just chose something. But when they study response, they see the body knows something has been decided ⁓ before ⁓ the even has a chance to chew through the idea. I mean, several seconds, actually. It's not even milliseconds. It's several seconds. And so what realize is what's really arising or what's happening is there is an arising and it comes into your awareness. And at some point.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right.
Darren King: There's this registry that happens, this registration layer. And that often comes in as an idea and even the sense of agency, right? I just chose, I'm going to go for a walk, right? Now we need to have that experience because that is what, that's the color set that we use here, right? ⁓ when you really pay close attention, when you drop into deep meditation and also just even empirical results we can study in science now.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Yeah.
Darren King: It's clear that this is an arising coming from beyond the frame altogether. so ⁓ can both experiential understanding as well as empirical evidence pointing to the fact that this is just a narrow transducer. ⁓ Like so the mind like a transducing of of like a radio station that you said earlier. And it's you know, it no more destroys the music than like killing the radio or the ghetto blaster or your MP3 player isn't going to hurt the radio wave that's non-local. Right.
JOY OFIRA: Right, and it doesn't change it at all. It just receives it and it to you in a way that you can understand. It makes me think about the diagrams that I've seen of the electromagnetic field of a human and how it's sort torus-shaped, right? And it comes from the heart and it comes up and around and the idea that
Darren King: Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: Possibly if that's true and that's how reception is happening through our bodies and the somatic experience, it's entering through the heart and then it takes a little bit to get up into your brain, right? For that sort of conscious knowing we would call conscious because it's the intellectual though there is a somatic knowing ahead of time, sort of what you're saying. loving this whole discussion so much. ⁓
Darren King: Yeah. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: I also did think of a question and it's kind of a big one and sort of in a different direction and sort of thorny. What came up for me was that there's a lot going on with NHI. people are saying there's going to be disclosure, disclosure, whatever disclosure may be. Right. But it does feel like there's a lot of information that's coming out into our awareness right now about reality about the structure of reality and when I say not just the structure as far as physics or Molecules i'm talking about the structure of power the structure of culture the structure of how all humans are relating on the and how just life, how things get done, right? It just feels like, wow, we're getting a lot of information right now that's not even necessarily what quote unquote would be disclosure and from the UFO perspective, right? But what you think about When disclosure happens, if disclosure happens, ⁓ is that? How that functioning within people and within the culture and within the global perspective? so that's a very small question, but...
Darren King: Right, right.
JOY OFIRA: just wondering your perspective on it from the lens of our whole discussion, because if you start with a perspective of receiving information that you thought was just not possible, maybe this whole reality isn't what we expect. And then you receive information that kind of confirms that because now there's some government official and standing at a podium and saying reality isn't what you thought. What do you think? Like, what do you think is?
Darren King: Well, yeah, mean, I mean, that the huge one, the first huge question of many like, what is the nature of what's being disclosed? And I find it funny, kind of to watch the the community of, you know, the or or ufology talking about this, because everyone assumes that we're talking the same thing. When is disclosure going to happen? A capital D disclosure. And and so for some that means We're finally going to realize we're not alone. We're finally going to realize we're not alone and they're here. finally going to realize, you know, we're not alone. They're here and they're interacting with us. It gets increasingly consequential. But then, as I say, one of the that's really interesting, and this is something I'm going to cover in a POC episode coming up this weekend, is ⁓ how one revelation inevitably ⁓ there's a porous outline it and bleeds to the next. consequential matter where you'll get some people consistently saying within our culture which has a you know a large Christian focus or a Christian background there's still a lot of people percentage-wise who are raised in evangelical or slash fundamentalist circles who will knee-jerk react by saying this is demons sometimes angels but usually they default to demons because anything that's unfamiliar tends to fall in that category. this ⁓ of Satan parade as an angel of light gets used. a blank they use to write every light in the sky. And no matter how good the experience someone has is, how seemingly loving it is, people will just say that's a dupe, right? It's just trying to deceive you. That's what they do. Now, as much as is an overreach and kind of a knee-jerk reaction, you can't deny the fact that there is an intersection with like the occult. with ⁓ the inner world and light of what we've been saying, part of what disclosure entails is not just who we are, who these beings are, but even this false separation between the inner life and the outer life, right? They're just sort of two different ways of seeing the same thing. And so in many ways, that's when you, you you might develop some outer technology ⁓ using, really physics.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: But fascinatingly, when you look at what arises there and the revelations that arise, it's very similar to what other traditions that have used inner technology, right? Deep meditative states and whatnot, hypnotic states, occultic practices have to some similar conclusions. And it's sort of like, you you take sphere and you sort of head out in two different directions. One goes east, one goes west. Inevitably, they meet on the other side at some point, right? That's what we're And so
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I would also say, too, that definitely is a process, not an event. And I say the process is well underway and has been underway for quite a while. And it is certainly, when we have congressional committees happening at a level where it took maybe 50 years to have one or two. Now we're having a of year kind of thing. And, some people I know, like Eric Davis, who's fun to talk to. ⁓ when he gets in front of these Congress people and will say, yeah, grays, reptilians, mantis beings, he starts naming the beings. And you can see the look on some of these ⁓ Congress people's because now we're going from something that is somewhat palatable, which is that, okay, the universe is big, there must be life out there, to okay, there must be other kinds of But then when you start naming ⁓ the intelligence, the they are, and also, again, how... ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: preposterous from a certain perspective these shapes and forms and morphologies seem to some people because this is another big question of which there's different to explain it, you know around why the humanoid shape right? Why is this so common over and over again? What do we do with these beings that seem almost entirely human but not quite? Some people will postulate that might be us from the future. I think that's part of it. But again ⁓ If space time is not foundational, then them being from the future is still some sort of downstream rendering of what they really are ⁓ or what they are at a more foundational level. I think it's fascinating. And of course, one of the interesting things that's come up is that you'll get, I see quite often now on social media, people trying to get the click bait. The sensationalist headlines will say things like Congressperson says She now knows they're talking about Luna here, that these are interdimensional beings, not extraterrestrial. this is something Nathan and I like to bring up is that that's a placeholder term. Like the notion ⁓ number one, is not physical. Ultimately, it might seem that way, but that's just the way it's the it's the experience it. And so not only is this physical, but because materialist scientists have wanted to say it is, One of the ways they've made sense of how fine tune this seems for life. It seems almost like it's been created for life or host life. They'll postulate. Well, maybe there's many other maybe there's myriad numbers of physical universes. And we just, of course, happen to spin up in the one that is conducive for life. But there's many that don't have light. But that's all a wild postulation. It's an abstraction. We don't have any empirical evidence for those things. So people ironically try to together ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: some notions of reality with the evidence of the UFO phenomenon that seems much stranger than just space aliens. What people default to is, well, they're extradimensionals or inter-dimensionals. But again, that begs the question, what does that mean? ⁓ intersection between culture, our scientific of the world, the way that's shifting, and the nature of the phenomena that's so diverse that that creates a really interesting possibility space that we're seeing unfold.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right. That's where I'm at there is a congressperson about inter-dimensionals. So already, like you're saying, disclosure is happening. It's already happening. ⁓ it's not gonna be one event, and that's disclosure. You find out everything at once, right? ⁓ But even her saying inter-dimensionals, some people are going to They're gonna have to reorient their reality around that. so we are entering a time Where this feels like it's accelerating and this information coming into our awareness. how does one reorient? once those layers the onion are being removed one at time, you can handle it, but do you deal with those moments where it's just hearing that and making you go like, whoa, because like when I was listening to you speak to Nathan about these ideas about idealism it wasn't like I had a paranormal experience, but it kind of felt like I did, in a way, like my feeling afterward is the same sort of feeling that people describe having after having an experience where ⁓ I saw something that shouldn't have happened. And then you just don't know what to do with it. It was the same sort post experience experience. do we integrate? what do you recommend? ⁓
Darren King: Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, one thing I would say that sort of became clear to me when I was outside the construct and came back in, because again, you start recontextualizing the events of your life. You start recognizing that energetic themes always felt have come in with you. And so one thing that's to ⁓ and there's somewhat, think, again, as downstream correlation, right? shows up in some of the physiological substrates, some of the genetic patterning that relates to anomalous cognition and anomalous perception. So in other words, some people with certain genetic traits tend to disproportionately experience these things we tend to call the paranormal and whatnot. Now, again, I that is just again at registration layer. It's going to look like a certain pattern in the brain. I don't think it's actually causing it. Right. ⁓ And Donald Hoffman ⁓ neuroscientists at University of California Irvine will say that to his colleagues. They're like, yeah, I love what you're doing. And he kind of realizes they're not getting how consequential it is. He's like, I'm saying your neurons are not real, right? That's an appearance, you know? And for a cognitive neuroscientist to like hear that from one of their colleagues, it's a bit of a shock to the system, right? But, know, Bernardo Castrip, know, will say the same thing. But he's coming more from the
JOY OFIRA: Right? Right.
Darren King: philosophy perspective, but he would say that the things we're seeing are more like the dashboard dials, And levers like you're in a plane and you're moving dials, but that's actually just corresponding to something that's happening out in the air. ⁓ And you'll even say if it's a storm, you'll have to fly by your dials and look at like, you know, the graphs and things like that, because you can't see. Well, the point he's making is that what we of reality is actually that it's a dashboard of dials and levers and and charts and things, right? It's not the actual reality out there. The point I'm making is though, is that I want to get at here is that ⁓ think different people are prepared for different levels of reorientation. when comes out, of course, part of the challenge of the time is that we're so divided politically and there's so much tribalism within sociopolitical framing in our country and to some degree around the world. That there is no one authoritative source, right? That we will say, so and so said it. So now I know it's true. I need to reorient. We're going to have different appeals to different authorities. Some of those authorities will say it's not real at all. Don't believe it. It's a psyops. Some will say don't believe it's aliens. It's actually demons. You're going to get the full gamut, right? And sociopolitically across the board. And I think just from a again, a cognitive dissonance
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of perspective. We know that people usually only ⁓ shift worldview there's so much mounting evidence that they have no other choice. But up until that point they will do they will explain it away. They'll say, that's an outlier. Well that's not so well supported. I don't know that I trust this person. So even after this moment and again it's not a moment it's a series of events but even once we
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: across a certain threshold, it's still gonna be like a bell curve, right? We're still gonna have some people coming on board, some not. And furthermore, I would say, you this is probably even more discombobulating for some people, but I think and again, it's not so much that we chose before to have a certain life because time is not real, right? It's not, doesn't happen sequentially like that outside of this construct, but is a way that, what we experience here, like I know now that what I experience, what I am experiencing here was very much determined by what I am outside of this construct as well. ⁓ so I now that I was going to have this kind of experience, an experience my understanding of reality gets turned upside down. And I also know that or I can feel sometimes it's hard to describe what it is. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Mm, mm.
Darren King: But I have a way of charting there's an aspect of a super intelligence outside of this that is testing to see how much I hold without completely falling basically. ⁓ And different have different thresholds for that. And even that's why don't give out the details of my protocol, because I think some people might not have a good experience at all.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right.
Darren King: You know, you you really have to be pretty grounded. It's it's dangerous physiologically psychologically if if you're not prepared this again speaks to how ⁓ way reality renders itself is partly by the configuration of our consciousness So it's it's it's really fascinating and I think I would say generally, know some sort general rules or guidelines I would when you're Interacting with people say friends and family colleagues and you want to talk to them about this stuff Definitely pay attention to the degree of curiosity pay attention to when you're seeing what looks like resistance and don't just force your way past that right like be be respectful recognize some people Even after it's disclosed will not embrace it for a variety of reasons Try to you know, be kind in how you do it And I would say also one thing I have really focused on, as you mentioned, this absolutely is my entire life, but people I work with and interact with are the people who are ⁓ on course, ⁓ right? ⁓ don't, it's that I wanna say something like I don't wanna waste my time with those who don't, but it's just, you you have a sense of what you feel called to. It's very clear to me and you you and I have had some conversation about this that... Like even when it comes to something like neurodivergence. I definitely in my family background have a neurodivergent kind of substrate. And I noticed that it's ⁓ it's again your typical framing tends to look at something like neurodivergence, it tends to see it as an anomaly, something to be fixed, something to be, ⁓ you know, countered. But, you know, like this person that is like a good friend of mine that I.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I practice radical transparency with and we have almost like a psychic connection. She and I and we have similar those some ⁓ patterning is similar for both of us. And I know you and I have touched by this some degree. ⁓ And so the that we will know things once you slow down and start paying attention to how you know it, it's not through any of the usual means that we think it is. So even when you think about disclosure, I think another outlier element that's really interesting is that
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yes, yes.
Darren King: I think humankind is changing like humankind is has always been evolving. I think the explosion of neurodivergence is actually related to this different way of rendering reality. And that being to some degree seeded and managed by a super intelligence that's outside of this particular frame, which ultimately we are not separate from also because we're distributed across different levels of reality, because when you recognize that everything, everyone is arising from that unitive pure awareness, then again, any distinction you make, then they can be helpful to distinguish sometimes, but you do understand that to some degree it's arbitrary. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. I was thinking about that earlier when you were talking about the idea of reality, how large it is and that, we have all these filters and that's how we survive. Right. neurodivergent people are to have perception that is more open. Right. ⁓ It's seen as a problem that you have sensory overload. that you're not able to get through a normal current American capitalist day with amount of that you have, Because it's too much, considered to be too much. And you're feeling you're everything, you're sensing everything, you're aware of it in a way that is seen as ⁓ problematic instead of seen as... a gift, right? that if, the world is structured in such a way that is taking care people, is in community with people that have these kinds of sensory perceptions, that it isn't a problem. Right? If you're not, if you, can set up your life or day to day in a way that works with that, it isn't a problem. And it also makes me think of, prior traditions and, some people feel like the word shaman is problematic but there's not a lot of great English words for the idea of a shaman, right? Or like a spiritual person that has a certain job. But that job is not going out and hunting. That is not cooking. That job is because they have this other. set of skills and awareness, that like it kind of all dovetailed back almost to where we started.
Darren King: Yeah, And ironically, though, the shaman may not be in charge of going in and hunting food. But what he with his anomalous might tell the tribe go west because that's where the food is. Right. So and so it's actionable intelligence. It's not just, well, I have these fun trips, these fun journeys like it's. ⁓ And when I, know, use this protocol, which I did as recently as a couple of days ago,
JOY OFIRA: ⁓ right. Right. Right.
Darren King: actually can perceive the future and and and it helps you helps you which direction to go. So I often describe it to people as and that's a very shamanic way of perceiving and navigating the world. So I describe it to people again, ⁓ it's not usual kind of knowing. not going to to something. Someone go, OK, now I know what you But I can.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I can sort of point into the fog and say it's like this. It's sort of like, when you you knock on a wall and when you get to the stud behind the wall, right, it sounds different, right? There's a different response resistance than when just like empty space. So when I'm into what I should do in the future, that's what happens. It's like tapping a wall and going, ⁓ there's something there that tells me that has a probability range that is worth exploring.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: or if something feels kind of vacuous and empty, I go that I don't think there's much resonance there. And again, people might go, well, it sounds like magical and mystical. And it's like, no, that's just the way reality actually is. Right. We are, you know, we are rendering things in a certain sequence in a certain order. But the whole thing already interrelates as a coexistence. Right. And so there's ways you can experience that. And the other thing is, too, as another example.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of like a modern shamanic kind of perspective. I have a friend a coaching client who works in data, right? So I often find that people that have this gift do really well with data because even with this vast shows of data, they can intuitively feel patterns in the data. Right. So and that's definitely case for me and for him. You know, he works the oil and gas industry for like.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah, pattern matching. Yeah.
Darren King: this large corporation that makes decisions like multimillion dollar decisions about where where deposits of fuel and things are. And for him, he uses anomalous perception to intuitively understand relationships and then sometimes has to wrestle with how do I translate this? So in the board meeting, they know how I know this, but they know that he does know it like It's been helpful for that corporation. Right. ⁓ And so
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right.
Darren King: And up until now, we've had to sort of like it in kind of a clunky way to something that, say, neurotypical people can understand. I'm not trying to like make this a black and white thing. I think there's a range of of and perception, but ⁓ sometimes does not fit the usual patterns that neurotypical describe patterns for how something can be known at all. And again, when people go, I'm not sure if I believe in this magic mumbo jumbo stuff with shamans and everything, it's like. It's not magic mumbo jumbo. It's the way reality actually is. you if if you really ⁓ with that, then look at the neuroscience research, look at the astronomical research, look at the quantum physics research and you'll realize that it fits ⁓ remarkably comports remarkably well with ancient non dual framings of what reality is itself. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right, exactly. Yeah, that's kind of been my whole show so far. Right? You take the old, the ancient, and you take the science and you say look, look, it does all up actually. And I was thinking about your friend and how he's looking at vast of data, And kind of feeling the pattern in it. And what came into my mind is the idea of a dowser, you know, a dowser who goes out and has a stick or has a feeling to find the well, to find the water. And it's very similar, right? But it's just a different set of data. Either you're out in a field or you're in a field of data like all this data, but it's all data.
Darren King: And ⁓ it's interesting because, I have a background in software engineering and I to recognize these parallels some of what I was doing in that field and what I'm realizing about reality. So, for instance, in database structures, there's different kinds of that we group data, that we ⁓ keep data together and understand the relationships. one of the more recent ones is notion of what's called a knowledge graph. where you try to map not just ⁓ the fact that are connected, but also the nature of the relationships, right? So with AI, for instance, what is making ⁓ AI increasingly powerful is that recognize how two ideas related, but you store the nature of that relationship, right? So.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: Cat and dog have a certain relationship which you store in a certain kind of dimensional framing. ⁓ Dog and bone have a different relationship, right? Both in terms of cats and dogs have bones, but a ⁓ dog will actually chase a bone, right? So not only store as a connection, but you store the direction of the connection. And so happens for neurodivergent people use really general term,
JOY OFIRA: Right?
Darren King: that are really good with pattern recognition. That's a big part of how I do all of this. Like how I knew to create podcast and see these patterns is because that's how I experienced them, right? And so then I ⁓ see big part of my role as like ⁓ a right? Taking those nonverbal, nonlinear and then lay that out people. But you sort of recognize and sort of think about it this way. I say this to the sometimes to people is that You can say, you know, what is the color blue? And that has a certain, you know, idea that comes to mind, but it's probably going to be fairly narrow. But if you think about, what comes to mind when you think about a relationship you were in and suddenly it's this vast trove of interrelated data, it's beauty, it's sorrow, it's hardship, it's, you know, it's euphoria, it's. It's all these things simultaneously, right? And that's why I partly say again, we really need to reintroduce into Western culture a somatic experience of life because of like this multi-dimensional reality and how ⁓ have to register it here, there's more bandwidth available in the body than there is in the brain, right? And so when we don't realize that we're missing out, right? But it's, know, another way to think about it is the analogy of when someone says, OK, what is Christmas? And ⁓ Christmas is red and green and white and blue lights and Christmas trees and Santa Claus and Jesus and commercialism. It gets that web of meaning that's immediately available and not just the web, but the nature of the relationships and the connections. Right. So.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: This is what the pattern recognition is like. And you can experience something and not just go, that's post, but suddenly all the ways that post relates to ⁓ all other kind of information and you can know all of it simultaneously. ⁓ So that ends up to your point being framed overwhelmed, Like too much information. ⁓ don't perform well an assembly line kind of culture, right? ⁓ When you do thing repeatedly, ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right, right.
Darren King: But I think what's happening again, and I think this is partly a fine tuning of our civilization from this sort of meta intelligence is that as there's more and more of us that perceive the world that way, then it will no longer be neurodivergent at some point. It will begin to approach neuro typical. And then the world we create will reflect that way of knowing and being. And I think because there's a greater emphasis on authenticity, it's much harder to just
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: down and do something because you make money from it. It's harder to experience the way because you experience the fullness of the implications of what you're doing. ⁓ so I think it will actually create a more just and compassionate culture ultimately. And I think that's kind of where things are going. That's part of disclosure in the big picture too.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. I think that's so beautiful and exactly where I would love everything to be headed. I really think that's actually probably a good place for us to close our discussion because ⁓ ending on a really beautiful note. ⁓ thank you so much. ⁓ can't even express how much I have appreciated this discussion. ⁓ there anything else you would like to say
Darren King: Beautiful. that I've appreciated the conversation too and the nature of the questions. And I'm able to go in what I consider interesting directions when I'm talking to someone who also has some of this anomalous perception and cognition and is already themselves putting together some of those relationships. So for me, this ⁓ the most interesting conversation have. ⁓ I hope we have more of them as a general society because that helps speed up this transition we're going through. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Well, I will say that's definitely the case. I hope we have more discussions like this as a society. ⁓ And with that, we will close. ⁓ And this has been ⁓ first many to come for the future thank you so much
Darren King: Yeah, you're so welcome, Joy. Great to meet you and yeah, I look forward to doing it again sometime. Okay, all right.
JOY OFIRA: Awesome, thanks.
Darren King: Thank you, Joy. I'm really happy to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.
JOY OFIRA: Awesome. So we were chatting just a little bit before we started and was saying how this sort shift the show is to start to about the the actual experience of having a happening in your life, that feels outside the norm. This could be anything. that someone would consider quote-unquote paranormal or supernatural or even spiritual or some kind of experience that you are one person before the experience and then you're another person after the experience. Now sometimes that can feel like immediately you have shifted. Something has changed and it's big and sometimes it feels like wow that was just something weird that happened and you kind of file it away. and it isn't something that feels so important at the moment, but then later may come up. So that's kind of where I've been headed. And your work deals so much with the nature of reality, the nature of experience, so different directions, ⁓ a lot them around ⁓ NHI ⁓ ⁓ UAP, that kind of thing, we also discussed as potentially sort of a gateway drug to more expansive discussions about experience and the nature of reality. So with that, I'll hand it to you and say, are there any of your own personal experiences you would like to talk about at first or even just your thoughts?
Darren King: this is always an interesting question when people ask me because there's a plethora of options to choose from and so I'm always sort of selecting amongst that and I would also say it's interesting because as I live more life, I find that the things I encounter now in experience recontextualize that happened much earlier. So sometimes something might happen two weeks ago and it gives me insight into something happened when I was seven years old or something, which is fascinating and inevitably leads to the sense of enchantment about the nature of reality that there's so much more going on than we realize and I end up realizing that there seems to be more of a setup than we sometimes realize which isn't to say that it's outside of what I am but I will sort of get to that in the nature of our conversation in terms of how I sort of experience myself as being distributed across different levels of reality I can tap into different components of that but if I were to pick
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: The first one I would want to point to in terms of a discombobulating and reorienting kind of experience I had. It would be about 20 years ago, just over 20 years ago. Actually, was traveling across the country with my really young family at the time. My wife at the time was pregnant with our son and we staying in a hotel and in the morning I awoke to find a female ⁓ figure entity at the end our bed. There's two beds are our young daughter who was just three was in the bed next to us. Then my wife and I were in the other bed and I woke up and initially your brain just tries to wrap its around something in terms of explaining what it is. So at first I thought, is that our daughter? But it was too tall to be our daughter. I out of bed and sort of moving towards this being. And it then turned to me. And what ⁓ saw or I interpreted as seeing was that.
JOY OFIRA: Right?
Darren King: she slash it looks surprised. sure if that meant surprised that I could see her or surprised that I was awake or both. But I began to move towards her, because she was at the end of the bed, she began to back up towards the wall and the wall was sort of long. Part of the wall was where the two beds were faced up against. And she she passed right through the wall. ⁓ And ⁓ then did something that at the time made no sense to me. And in fact, it sort of makes you not want to talk about it too much because people are going to think this doesn't make any sense. But I later on found out as I studied the lore, speaking of the title of your podcast, that this is actually quite common, that I did something behaviorally that made no sense, which is I turned around to come right back to sleep as if this is no big deal. An entity at the end of the bed that passes through walls just happens every Tuesday. but again,
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: What was so consequential about this experience was that my wife saw it as well. So if she had not seen it, I might have gone to sleep. I might have thought, was that a dream? What was that? Did that really happen? But because she saw it too, she actually shook me out of my stupor and said, what are you trying to do going back to sleep? That sort of brought me back out of kind of hypnotic kind of state. We talked about it and decided, you know, we weren't going to stick around for the continental breakfast after all.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: You know, we then woke up our daughter who this could be related or not, but she had these welts all over her body that she'd never had before and never had after that. Might been an allergic reaction to the sheets or something. But we, know, high tailed out of there, hit the road and about an hour or so later, those welts completely up. So they were completely gone. Now, interestingly, as I turned to come back to bed, my wife saw the being come back through the wall. and then proceed to go down the front of the two beds and through the front door. Didn't open the door, just went through the front door. So that was an experience where I remember this was a period of time where you would go to the front lobby of the hotel and you could use the computer to log on to the Internet. And I sent some emails to friends and family. You're not going to believe what happened. And everyone's like, wow, yeah, how's the weather there?
JOY OFIRA: Sure. ⁓ yeah.
Darren King: It quickly changed the subject, right? And, you know, we called the front desk while we on the road and said, Do you guys have any of having weird things in the hotel? And the girl at the front desk was a bit freaked out, but she's like, No, not that I know of. And it wasn't like it was an old hotel or something. It was like, you know, probably a hotel built in the ⁓ or something. So that was an experience where.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right. Okay.
Darren King: You don't know what to do with it. You know, the being looked mostly human, slightly angular in terms of facial features, but hair. There was a couple elements that also didn't any sense according to the way I understood reality at the time, ⁓ which is when my wife and I compared notes, she actually saw from the mid part of the body up, like the legs were missing. Wasn't the case for me. For me, I did see legs.
JOY OFIRA: Okay.
Darren King: But it was a bit obscure what the body like what the body ⁓ uniform or what she was wearing. couldn't quite tell it was a bit but we both saw, you know, this female head with with blonde hair. But I saw the hair sitting still hanging down to the sides, whereas my wife saw it as blowing as if there was like wind in the room, which there wasn't. So subtle differences, which, again, later on, when I studied the law, I realized that does happen. People can have.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: Three people can have an experience, but they have slightly different renderings of that experience. And I use that word quite, quite intently. ⁓ more I could get to, especially about my understanding of the nature of reality much later, but I'll stop there in of an experience that again, initially I didn't know what to do with it. It wasn't until much later when I studied the phenomenon, the UFO phenomenon, that I recognized that number one, humanoid. and even quite human looking figures are very common, actually. They're not always great aliens. ⁓ And this behavioral strangeness is quite common as well.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right, yeah, is so common that more than one person experiences the same thing at the same time, or rather has an experience ⁓ the same time that it seems similar, but it's not exactly the same, that each person is sort of receiving the information somewhat slightly differently. tell if this isn't accurate, but it seems like generally the message is sort of the same or. ⁓ the feeling is sort of the same and impression is sort of the same, but it's not necessarily the exact same physical that's the same.
Darren King: Right. Yeah. Which again, raises questions about what is perception, right? And what constitutes perception and what's the difference between perception and reality? And is there a difference in those kinds of things? But yeah, we, you know, we both sort of had the same kind of experience. We were both spooked by it, spooked more than fascinated. And what I also say that and I think this is important to point out because I think this happens to a lot of people.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Number one, again, I was lucky enough that I saw it with someone. Otherwise, I think I would have doubted myself much more. But even beyond that, though, you don't really know what to do with it because it's not something most people know what to talk about. And you sort of file it away in the back of your mind and you have to go on with your life. Otherwise, you think about it constantly. But if you nowhere to know where to put it, nothing to do with it. ⁓ And again, it wasn't so much later.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: that that I began to make sense of it in light of this larger lore. And, you know, she and I also the course of our marriage, when were together, had numerous together. And in fact, again, speaking of recontextualization, looking back, she and I both feel like there was something that us together for the time that we were together. And it's almost like alchemically. Together it created this stew ⁓ sort of set off a paranormal firestorm in some ways We had we had numerous experiences together Over the course of time and it feels like to some degree the more ⁓ I ⁓ room these kinds of outliers The more they could find purchase in my life, which is partly because you know You're you're noticing and not just dismissing. I think a lot of times people literally don't see something in front of them They don't note it because it doesn't fit with the paradigm they were taught about what could be right.
JOY OFIRA: so much, yeah.
Darren King: Or they they have cognitive dissonance. Right. And there's they have very good reasons to not want to think that's there because might think they're crazy. But the more I recognize that ⁓ reality is much stranger than we realize and to a large degree, our perception again is is filtering more than it's letting in. So try to actually take a posture of of
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: have a relaxed sense be very alive to the moment rather than relying on, well, I know what the world is, it's always going to be the same. Instead, like actually have this sense of anticipation of what might arise. And then I've noticed over time that I notice more.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. I mean, there is so much to that, the idea of presence and, being in the moment, that kind of thing. What you were saying before about not even like perceiving it more because you're more open to it. And also, you know, maybe you don't see it because you don't expect it to be there. I mean, who hasn't had the experience even in just real life, like you're not real life. You know what I'm saying? The materialist idea of life.
Darren King: Right. Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: that you are, you're looking for a pencil and you know you set the pencil down and you go and you look and the pencil's not there and you look all over and you're looking, looking, looking, and everywhere you look, you can't find the pencil and you go back to the first place and there it is. And you didn't see it, right? And sometimes people will be like, I know it was there before and then it wasn't there like something moved it. I mean, maybe something didn't move it, but also maybe you just didn't see it, right? And how much of awareness is... ⁓
Darren King: Right. Right. Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: physical and how much of awareness is perception and how it up these questions that even feel Childlike in a you know, I do a child and he'll say something to which is something I remember thinking when I was a child like well I see the color blue and we call it blue and I have this idea of what blue is but how do I know that your
Darren King: Mmm.
JOY OFIRA: perception of blue is the exact same as my perception of blue. Like maybe what you see is red, but we call it blue and that kind of thing. And it makes me think about what you were saying when ⁓ you your wife saw the same thing and you saw something, but you see exactly the same thing. And maybe that's just part of our natural experience as humans, but not really a way to even compare blue. ⁓
Darren King: Mm, right, right.
JOY OFIRA: to discuss blue,
Darren King: This, yeah, this, this is the and people like, you know, Donald Hoffman and Bernardo Castrip that, both tend towards an idealistic view of reality. We'll make that very point that any kind of scientific inquiry we conduct is going to be done through our conscious perception. there's no way you can eliminate conscious perception, right? And then say, what is it really like outside of that? Right. We can't do that. And, and, and furthermore, you know, once you have studied non dual traditions as I have and once you understand that division from one object to another is actually somewhat arbitrary. And when think about the work of someone like Donald Hoffman, he would point out that evolutionarily, and I think this is only part of the picture, but it is part evolutionarily, we have learned to create shortcut icons like on an interface to make our way through the world. And that actually when he's studied this and done mathematical research,
JOY OFIRA: Yeah, sure.
Darren King: those who would have the most robust, detailed, exhaustive perception of reality would be swiftly driven to extinction because there's so much going on that you can't attend to what you need to attend to and you get eaten by lions or you don't find food or whatever. So those people would have died out in the past. So we are the of ancestors who develop these these shortcuts kind thing. So ⁓ once Get to there. That's also a major shift that happens in your understanding of the phenomenon and paranormalty in general because you recognize that you know, and you sort of caught yourself when you said the real world, right? because We realized that we're not actually perceiving a real world. We're actually perceiving interface with a set of icons that dumbed down what's actually out there to make us attend to what we need to basically to perpetuate the species to eat
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right, survival.
Darren King: asleep, like basic things, right? Just to get us there. Yeah. And that's why it's also an interesting time to be alive, because I think as we move towards more of an embrace of something like an idealistic view of the world, then we and because we most of us are not running around in the jungle worried about lions at this point, we actually purposefully design experiments to actually more things and perceive more things. And we're at the cusp of that with some technology now ways that we can really fascinatingly when you disrupt some of the electrochemical activity in the brain, people become more psychic, right? People perceive other things. so, yeah, this question of ⁓ is reality? What is perception? What is that intersection? ⁓ even to what degree are people experiencing different things based on a physiological substrate, which I would even then say that's downstream of something else that's more energetic because
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right. Right.
Darren King: You know when I studied I did was when I was trying to make sense of what this phenomenon was and all the high strangeness I started looking in other fields of inquiry Other sciences to try to see if there's anything You know coming down the pipe there that might help explain this and there was because for you've got physicists like Nima Arkani Hamed Saying that we know it's not a question. It's not a you postulation We know this space-time cannot be foundational. So foundational is space-time is a
JOY OFIRA: Welcome to The Future Lore, where we explore the mysterious with endless curiosity and joy. Today marks the shift in our podcast journey as we welcome our first guest, Darren King, the mind behind Point of Convergence and Liminal Phrames podcasts, which are linked in the show notes, and I most highly recommend. Listening to Darren's work preceded some of my own profound shifts in worldview. He spent years at the intersection where the data meets the magic,
Darren King: as a downstream rendering or an epiphenomenon of a deeper reality structure. So at this point, I think this should be encouraging to experiencers, to people who've had these experiences, because we no longer have to say the only way we know this is real is if it shows up here, right? And it shows up for everybody in a certain way. Yeah. And so it still shows up, but it's no longer the litmus test, right? It was whether or not it shows up in space time and even the notion that space time is the same. And to your point about
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right, in a certain way. Right. synthesizing everything from quantum entanglement to and non-dual traditions, along with a broad and deeper inquiry into NHI or non-human intelligence. But our conversation today isn't just about the mysterious. You know, the experience of the anomalous or even paying attention to it.
Darren King: colors, you know, this is something I realized a while ago that was really interesting. a certain shade actually of color that that only a really small subset of women can see. So no, no man can see it. And a very, very small percentage of women can see it. So that's an example. So like, know, when you talked about your child's question about how do we know blue is blue and all that? Yeah, this is absolutely of it. And this is, again, something else that's
JOY OFIRA: ⁓ right.
Darren King: fascinating when you think about it because not only is we perceive as reality actually a Shortcut rendering but on top of that we know there's many of the animal species that perceive much more of the electromagnetic spectrum than we do You know, yeah, it's yeah
JOY OFIRA: Right. I mean so much I almost feel like almost feel like if my when my friends listen to this episode they'll be like are you sure you didn't talk to this guy before because this is the kind of thing I'm always saying I'm always saying like well you know the mantis shrimp and we know that it has these because of the structure of its eyes we know mathematically that it can see millions and billions more colors than we can and that doesn't mean that the mantis shrimp is some kind of paranormal being can strip away the layers between living inside of one reality and dropping into the next, We're going to talk about how to find your footing when the ground beneath you starts to feel like a dreamscape.
Darren King: Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: It just means the mantis shrimp has a perception that can see more than we can, right? And birds and bugs and other animals can see the UV spectrum or the infrared spectrum. And just because we can't see it with our eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? And just because I can't hear a radio station in my own human ears right now doesn't mean that's not playing either.
Darren King: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. Yeah. And when you start looking at like, again, the implications of what has been discovered through quantum physics, for instance, something like entanglement, which basically demonstrates a couple of things. Number one, that space are not really real because you could have two entangled particles on opposite ends of the cosmos and they will simultaneously reorient based on what the other one does. So not only are they connected somehow when there's no ⁓ physical connection, but
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: We assume that when something somehow responds or corresponds to something else in space, it has to send a signal. And we assume the signal can only be sent at the speed of light. That's as fast as it can go. But this is simultaneous, regardless of distance. Right. And this is where the notion of non-local consciousness even comes up. So know that space and time are not real the way we think they are. They are rendering in a way that we experience them that way. But that's not the way ultimate reality is. And once you Start paying attention to the evidence coming from astronomy and neuroscience and physics. ⁓ Suddenly has been considered an outlier, right? Paranormal suddenly doesn't ⁓ seen that way. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. Right. Right. it also feels like this is something that I started to explore more. And part the reason that I have you as a guest on my podcast is because I was listening to your podcast, especially the episodes that around episode 50 that you did, Liminal Phrames with Nathan, and you were talking about idealism. And I had been to some of your episodes before that. So it wasn't like completely out of left field that these sort of ideas. But there was something about it. that it was like I had been peeling an onion for a long time the layers were pretty thin and then suddenly for reason when I listened to your podcast that time it was just time, like it was ready. Like okay, we're just gonna take it off now. Like we can't wait anymore. So like that layer off and have to tell you that it was very disorienting. I was. It felt sudden even though it wasn't sudden. I'm not saying it wasn't something I could handle, but also felt like, now like, ⁓ I kind of don't what's happening. Like, you know, like I can only do it almost physically show you like it's destabilizing, it's disorienting. It's this moment where things ⁓ are My idea of is shifting and honestly, it feels like the ground under your feet. I just feel like every... Here's where I ask you to like, subscribe, or follow, rate, and review. And now, let's dive in with Darren King. of cliche or idea of how I could describe it is incomplete and and this is of what we were getting into about the idea of experience and sometimes only an experience and you could look at it and say why that experience was the thing that like was like whoa now reality is entirely different why you know but I do feel like weird experiences be more sort of stripping back those layers quickly. I guess I'm getting to the point of how do we reorient after we've had this sense of reality shifted? Like for me, what I did was I started my because I was just like, I need to spend a lot of time figuring this out because much of what you are just saying and so much of what you say on your podcast and so much what I've done in my research and found on my podcast Okay, wow, so this has been the first of what I hope will be many interviews on the future lore and I couldn't have asked for a better guest than Darren King. I hope these conversations help us metabolize the shift toward a new way of being. And as we close, hold on to this. The construct that we live in is meaningful, but it isn't foundational. As Darren reminded us, you are the awareness creating the environment. always sort of the mystery, the history, the science, and then trying to integrate. And I kind of feel from the history, it's a searching for me of well, we've always known this, right? This is old traditions, ancient traditions, know, indigenous traditions, they have known, and that help you reorient. ⁓ And then the science. and can choose to engage with an enchanted reality. Again, check the show notes for Darren's work on Point of Convergence and Liminal Phrames podcasts. They are in the show notes and I promise you won't regret it. I hope you notice the studs behind the wall of your own reality this week. And remember, you are far more powerful, far more strange, and far more connected than you've ever been told. Let's keep exploring. That for me is like the geekery and I'm a nerd and I love that stuff. And I'll be like, do you know what's actually real? is proving it. You that helps me reorient. I'm not sure exactly. I a question, but, can you help sort of bring these things together? how do we think about reality after? ⁓ this wild unknown together. Please support the channel. Drop us a like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell on YouTube. Follow, rate, and review on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Want even more? Visit thefuturelore.com to join our free community and find all of our official links, which are at the future lore with no spaces everywhere. Thanks again for tuning in my loves.
Darren King: Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, it's interesting because
JOY OFIRA: I am so lucky to be here with you to embrace the mysterious and stay curious.
Darren King: I think people find it more discombobulating than others. I remember I was at a meeting in Houston last ⁓ and was a bunch of different people from different organizations involved with UFO research. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Was it at the archives of the impossible?
Darren King: Yes, there was a meeting that happened while that was going on. It was a separate meeting with a with a group of different organizations and people that are academics, as well as, you know, the Galileo team was there different academics like Jeffrey Kripal were there and I was there. And we were talking about the nature of reality. And there's a certain subset of that group of people that were there that are still fairly physicalist, right? They're looking. like astronomically, where are these things coming from? Like they believe that things are happening, but they still think in terms of space aliens. And I'm not saying that's not part of it, it was very clear to me that they were missing an like an entire swath of what this is. And I remember ⁓ at Jeff at one point and we both were like, wow, yeah, there's there's big pieces missing here. So at one point, I just felt the need to sort of speak up and say, OK, but is going on and this is going on and this is related to this and this is going on over here. And, you sort of realize some people go, OK, interesting. And they kind of metabolize it. Other people don't know what to do with what you just said. And for some people, they seem like such categorically different topics that they're not even sure how they relate. know, this is part of the fascination around why UFOs co-arise with Sasquatch and these different ⁓ beings, These things that seem separate and historically, ironically, even these are
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right.
Darren King: All outlier topics they've tended to be studied in isolation. Like you've got the sasquatch people you've got the you know, you got the ghost hunter people and you got the ufo researchers and they tend to not breed or cross pollinate but they really should because And is something we found at skinwalker ranch that they co-arise So somehow there must be some there's a correlation and we need to try to figure out what it's all about But to point you brought up with science Yeah, this is part where
JOY OFIRA: Absolutely.
Darren King: Sometimes people might look at you and say, I know that sounds pretty out there what you're saying. But once you start presenting the evidence one after another, right. OK, there's there's congressional dialogue right now about and what degree will we ⁓ disclose to the public? There's whistleblowers coming saying there have been reverse engineering programs. a secret gatekeeping that's been going on for 80 or 90 years. We've got.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: most people that when they feel comfortable to start sharing their experience, everyone knows someone who's had these kinds of experiences, Exactly, or have had one themselves. And then ⁓ you start looking at science and saying that this notion of reality is quite outdated and not supported by the data. And that's an interesting thing because even I have found when I look at scientists themselves, researchers, physicists even,
JOY OFIRA: or has had one themselves, right? Yeah.
Darren King: I noticed that they often have fairly unscientific subjective to think we must have that wrong. That can't be true. ⁓ Quantum can't be true. Distance must be real. It's not even distance that gets unmoored by this, even the notion of local realism goes out the door. And then people look at you, you're saying reality is not real? Not exactly. Not the way we thought it is. So then...
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: This is something I'm discussing in this book that I'm writing right now. You start looking at the outliers, what we've considered the outliers, right? Sci phenomena, ⁓ NDEs, OBEs, contact with beings, all these things, and you start recognizing they actually pointing to the way reality actually is versus how it renders most of the time, right? And to me, that is where the really fascinating research goes.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, ⁓ there real research going on And treated as though it's not real research, somehow the data is not data, that somehow especially research about experience if you to do any research that subjective qualities, but making it into qualities, right, like you're tabulating data, you're coming up with statistical correlations and things like that, that even though that data is real, real. then is the issue there? It seems to be if a human gives account some kind of mechanistic measurement that is also a kind an account, right, that you can observe, then those two things are an account. They are both an observation. But the human is always assumed to be the unreliable narrator. in some way.
Darren King: Right. Even though again, even when we do that seemingly objective measurement, it's still through our conscious perception. There's no way you can get around that. And yeah, really fascinating results, right? Not just a double slit experiment, but even ⁓ retroactively, right? Like ⁓ you wait and then take the measurement or look at the measurement, it seems to wind back to what would have happened 24 hours ago or something. again, all of these things we assume were the constants of nature.
JOY OFIRA: It's affected. Yeah.
Darren King: undone because of this. And such a degree again that it's so discombobulating for scientists who've been in a certain tradition and have been raised as Westerners like us that they just going, it can't be, there's got to be something else. And yet we have, you know, decades and decades of research, not just in terms of quantum physics, but even parapsychological research goes back for like over a hundred years at this point. ⁓ And there's a signal from Psi ⁓ shows up over and over and over again and yet you still see this again. looks like an unscientific biased perspective that it must be Poor measurement or or bad protocols or something? But ⁓ even when you meta analysis across many different experiments you find it's just as strong so again to me What would say is most of the time most people are walking around with a certain downstream ⁓ reframe notion of reality. what all these data points are pointing towards is the fact that there's a leakage coming through from the way things actually are prior to the re-rendering and perception. And you can again do things to encourage that kind of perception of the deeper reality. So in my case, the second major shift in terms of reorienting my understanding of reality, after I had these accidental, you know, things to me, ⁓ I actually develop protocols that allow me to what I say, you know, exit the construct of space time. It's pretty extreme protocol and you have to do it carefully, but you basically exit any ⁓ normal way experiencing reality and you tap into that unified that that, you know, pre exists before the rendering. And you ⁓ then ⁓ notice something really happening you don't just have different knowledge, but the way of knowing is different. And this is probably the most discombobulating thing I've ever experienced, even more than seeing an entity go through a wall. Because when you come back into the construct, you have this knowing that this is not real the way we think it is. It's still it's still relatively real, right? But it's not really what we think it is. It's certainly not foundational. And the way you know that that's the most ⁓ discombobulating. You know, I remember sort of like coming out and for about an hour, like, you know, some expletives as I was walking around my house, right. Realizing the consequences of what I've just discovered, because it's like from within the construct, within space time, everything renders a certain way. And you can sort of read between the lines and postulate, is there a deeper structure? And again, ⁓ physics telling us there is. But when you actually are in that deeper structure.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: And then you come back into this, you for the first time in your entire life see from outside. even the things relate, how phenomena relate, they relate semantically rather than spatially and temporally. So for instance, when I come back in, the events of my life have reordered based on meaning versus when they happen chronologically. ⁓ including elements that I didn't quite recognize that then ended up happening in the future. So it's like this nested set of all these related data aspects. And some are from when I was five years old, but they might be right next to something that happened when I was 25 years old. And then there's something else that is connected, but I don't remember it. And then it happens like two weeks later. So that tells me that in some way, all of this pre-exists somewhere. But even to say, you're saying time is already finished is the wrong way to look at it because you're still thinking ⁓ terms of space and time. And this, think, is one of the bigger challenges in terms of communicating it to people. And you talked about, like, when you experienced this personally, you of have to go in layers and you have to metabolize one layer before you can go to the deeper layer. ⁓ But I have found that ultimately it's incredibly liberating, actually, and enchanting, a re-enchants reality.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.
Darren King: It liberates any fear you have. One thing that really was clear to me when I came back was recognizing that I am not at all this, right? This is just a downstream rendering of something that's that's not ⁓ in space time at all, therefore can't die, can't be destroyed because it wasn't really created to begin with. It's it's the underlying substrate prior to space time. When you recognize that and you come back and you realize very really that this is is much like a dreamscape is what it's like. It's just a long running dream that we're having together. It's meaningful. It's purposeful, but it's not any more foundationally coherent or permanent than the dream I had last night. And so you come back in and you go, OK, I want to spend the rest of this dream doing the that feel the most compelling. I'm not going to orient by fear because fear. is just ripped out from underneath you because what there to fear any more than something that happens in a dream and you wake up 10 minutes later?
JOY OFIRA: Right. I mean, that is just incredibly profound. It also is like, this your whole life and you're so in it, right? And so different than the standard sort of life that, most people are living on the planet, right? As sort of completely different perspective, a completely different approach, a different base, fundamental, different way of living than most people. you were talking your protocol it's quite intense and you're of leaving the construct entirely ⁓ coming back with this. ⁓ experiential knowing, right, that is so and at the same time sounds somewhat terrifying in a way. Sounds like incredibly liberating, totally liberating, ⁓ also really terrifying. And so ⁓ we were talking about like the layers, right, the layers and the layers you're just preparing and sort of reorienting slowly And then sometimes suddenly, sometimes an will come along and that is more sudden. Like you were talking about like coming back and being like walking around like expletives, expletives, expletives. Like even for you was like, what? Like, how do I, like that's if this is what it really is, then what, right? Even for you in that moment. So for standard listener to think or to consider and about their own experience and their own knowing. Because this tangent kind of goes all the way back where we started was you'll have an experience and it will give you a different. understanding of knowing it's so hard to even talk about in a way because it's the same word right well i knew it before but now i really know it i often will talk to people about this i'll say well i had an intellectual understanding that yeah like everything's connected you know Everything's the same. We're all like one and non-dual and that and you have this understanding and it kind of doesn't matter how deep your intellectual understanding of that goes or your intellectual acceptance of that goes and then there's some other level that's sort of like a surrender. You know what I'm saying? Like you
Darren King: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up knowledge and knowing because you're absolutely right that, you know, we in any language have to choose among ⁓ a pretty blunt edge symbols, right? When we're communicating, right? And
JOY OFIRA: Right? It's like, how do you know it's, I just know.
Darren King: Yeah, yeah. And and so someone will assume when you when I say I knew something that it's like knowing that two plus two equals four or knowing that the sun will rise in the morning. it's not that kind of knowing. It's actually, you know, where I've used this word gnosis to describe. ⁓ because. From that non dual perspective, again, not deducing or inferring, but because non duality means that.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: is one unitive field, actually. The appearance, experience of is an illusion. Right. And so when you are experiencing reality as that oneness, then to know is the same as direct personal experience. So if someone says, I have a stomach Well, how do you know you have a stomach ache? Because I can feel the pain. I guess direct. Right. It's a physiological thing.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: It's kind of like that, even deeper than that, it's not it's not cognitive cerebral knowledge at all. ⁓ And and again, that that's why I really stress that the and this is something I really wrestled with for a long time because I realized I didn't have the language for it. We don't have the language for what I experienced where you come back in and you're like, how is this thing? I know like a hundred compared to. ⁓ everything else I know. Like it's not just knowing, but it's a knowing at a level that undoes everything else or contextualizes everything else. It's the foundation from which everything else builds upon. And it's because again, you're actually and this is the part that's discombobulating, but again, also incredibly liberating because basically not only is this body mind, as we say in Buddhism, finite or you know, it's only what we wear when we're here for so many decades.
JOY OFIRA: Exactly.
Darren King: And we sometimes think, well, I hope when I die that I'll wake up and there'll be something. But the thing is, you're you're already is at now. Right. We just often don't know because we're constrained into this experience. what I experienced was like dropping outside of those constraints and realize is a part of me that has memories from previous lives, has memories from sort paradisal, idealistic, like the most heavenly realms.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Right. And this is one of the really fascinating things that happen is because when that that boundary has become porous, then not only did I experience things when I was out, but even when I came back in, began to have memories drop in from I never experienced in the decades I've been here. So, for instance, ⁓ I telling of my classes this, that I was stopped at a stoplight and I turned and saw this reed
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: growing out of this pond and it was dusk and the sun was hitting it a certain way. It was really beautiful. I immediately ⁓ to myself, ⁓ that's what it looks like on the other side. And then I caught myself and said, what did I just think slash say? Right. Like this is what really happened. Like I'm reflecting on a memory that I don't remember having in a way. You know what saying? It's a ⁓ a paranormal memory in terms of usual cognition and ⁓ history.
JOY OFIRA: Who said that? Right. Yeah.
Darren King: And I remember also when I came back and I for a drive and and I saw a rusty car and I saw a homeless person and I experienced it in a way I've never had before where I was like, what? Why? Why? going on here? Like, ⁓ because in in some of other places I've been to, there's there's no such thing as those things. There's no such thing as deterioration. There's no such thing as, you know, an unequal of wealth and things that. It's just not there.
JOY OFIRA: right.
Darren King: So you come back in here and it's like it slams you like you like you've lived in a palace your entire life where everyone has equal resources and you suddenly go outside the palace and you realize, ⁓ some people don't have as much like it hit me at that level. And so it's ⁓ truly And but again, most overarching liberating because now what I the stuff's interesting yes, UFOs are interesting, but in some ways UFOs themselves as vehicles or objects are the least interesting part of this, right? Because it's it's not just about NHI and what these who these beings are and how that intersects with the occult and how does this all factor in and religious history? who we are actually right did this just I think the the deepest revelation because ⁓ a really deep layer those are all aspects of the same one diamond and and I think even the way we sometimes experience
JOY OFIRA: Right? Right.
Darren King: Otherness as sometimes as a being sometimes as a knowing as overarching guidance or a series guides like all of that renders differently depending on particular configuration of consciousness those things aren't set and and this is why you know when you look at NDEs for instance, the general themes are very consistent, but the details often vary quite a bit right and And so some people say, so then it's not real, It's more like a rendering for you. And I'm like, this is that as well. Believe me, this is that as well. I've experienced experiencing this as that as well. And that's there is. Right. So there's and I don't mean that in a reductive way. mean that in in this unitive right, that is prior to form. It's just as this one, this oneness, this unitive field of awareness. And then. as that original mind deliberately constrains itself in different ways that allows distinction and separation and novelty to arise. The idea of myriad objects and other people, right? All of that arises by a constraining of that original pure awareness. And you realize that there's myriad numbers of levels, you know, from the most base level dense layer like here, the 3D layer. There's myriad numbers right back to that pure awareness field. to some degree, it's ⁓ even how you decide what those are. And because it says plentiful is the number of dreams you could have. And so there have been experiences I've had where I realized there's quadrillions of realities like it ⁓ I've experienced them. Right. Like I can. This really difficult to explain because we don't this is not part of our usual experience. But from that place. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You can see all directions at all times. You can know all times at the same time. You sort of drop into this awareness where you picture this refracting almost like a hall of mirrors where there's like realities as far as you can as you can experience. It's not really seeing. ⁓ And furthermore, every action we take here, every even every thought we entertain has implications and feedback effects in those other realities and vice versa. And ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You experience this all simultaneously and then it's really discombobulating to come back in and have to live in this tiny one little thing that rolls out linear in a linear way. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: You Right? And that you do still need to eat and you got to clean your house and know, you, if you're lucky, you have a cat and you know, there's those things and also that this experience as limited as it is also beautiful. This is also so much, joy and ⁓ wonder and enchantment, as you before, to be experienced. here. And also, what you were just saying made me think about, the idea of, the constraint is the point, right, to ⁓ the constraint and this experience as human is the point, because otherwise, why would it exist? And sometimes, like, while you were talking, I thinking just in a very prosaic kind of way of, like, say that you had everything that a human could have and you could do anything with your life, right? you had every kind of resource of any kind. You have all the health, you have all the wealth, you have all the connection, you have all the friends, you have everything that the oneness would have, right? That all of reality would have. And you have it and you're a person. And so what are you gonna do? It's like, well. if you just think about it from a human perspective, most people are on the hamster wheel so much that like, well, first I would just do nothing, right? I would just rest. would lay around. would whatever, whatever. But everybody knows that people who retire and go nuts, right? They just don't have anything to do. And they need something to do. constraint of life, even constraint of life as a human, you can see where There's beauty in that, right? people will say, well, this is my purpose. Well, a purpose is a constraint. Even if you find ⁓ much growth ⁓ connection ⁓ wonder and abundance within that constraint, it's still not sitting around going well, I guess I'm everything right now.
Darren King: Yeah, I mean, in other words, for any experience to arise, there has to be constraint because without constraint, there's no differentiation. to point, what it really comes down to, and this is, again, I understand why it's hard for some people to kind of postulate how this would be. But when you the pure potentiality of every possibility, it actually in itself is kind of boring, right? Because ⁓ you don't ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: You don't get to really experience anything pragmatically. It's more like potentiality. Now I do want to say that is a certain way that you that reality that is incredibly profound. the way I often describe it is if you want to describe as an experience, it's the experience of not even the possibility of lack.
JOY OFIRA: Mmm.
Darren King: Like it's and it's not really bliss that sometimes word like in Hindu or Vedic kind of philosophy. We talked about bliss, but ironically bliss ⁓ really understandable in light of like agony or the opposite of bliss. Right. Like ⁓ all about this continuum. Yeah. And so it's it's not really bliss in that sense, but it is bliss like neo blissful in the sense that or pseudo blissful in the sense that for the first time in your life.
JOY OFIRA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Like a euphoria. You
Darren King: don't even know what it's like to imagine something missing or even the ⁓ of something missing, right? Because this is something Buddhism talks about. There's couple of different kinds of suffering. know, they're suffering from the things you want don't have. And then there's a suffering from the fear of loss of the things you do have. Right. And the impermanence is what this what this reality is about. This reality. And some people might lament that. But again, this is just one downstream tiny refraction of
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of a hall of mirrors that you get to experience. from that perspective, the limitation is what creates the spice, right? Because it's sort of like saying, you know, I want to have Mexican food today, Chinese food tomorrow, know, Indian food the next day. What I don't want to do is just mix them all together and have all of them, right? That's not an enjoyable experience. It's the differentiation that becomes interesting. Or when musicians say,
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: Okay, now with digital instrumentation, we could use 500 sounds. But what's more interesting is we're going to be a bluegrass band, right? We're going to use these same few instruments and we're going to just make as many albums as we can. And there's still myriad directions you could go in, even within that limitation. So I'd say that's what this reality is about.
JOY OFIRA: Like all the sound is chaos, but of the sound in a directed way is music.
Darren King: Right, or a huge part of music, of course, is the rests in between the notes. We often don't think about that, right? So the presence of all notes, all sounds simultaneously an of a kind, but it's not the same thing as what we experience as music here. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. It's so interesting. Like while you're saying that, I started thinking about frequency waves generally. I was thinking about sound waves and then it kind of expanded that any wave order to be a wave has to reach the top and the bottom. point where it's switching and then it's going like back down and back up. But there's that full potential constrained within the wave of the note or any frequency.
Darren King: Yeah. Right. And again, it's of the way the experience tends to render here, we think about, no, I'm getting older. I'm going to die. Right. But that's just ⁓ the of one wave that inevitably picks up somewhere else. And it's actually multidimensional wave. And this is definitely talked about in non-dual traditions. There's this sense that you can't really talk about any experiential quality without talking about its contrast. That's the only way it actually has of independent meaning is because of what it's in contrast to. ⁓ so at some point, you kind of, for a couple of different reasons, number one, you surrender to that, to the full waveform, right? ⁓ you realize you can't stop it. This ⁓ what happens, right? But also... ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Darren King: a re-identification that happens, a re-contextualization that happens where you recognize, am the fullness of the sound wave. I am not just one little crest coming over the top. ⁓ lifetime might be that. But once you again can experientially know that as a kind of gnosis, not as a, that's an I like, I'm gonna try to like nod my head towards it. ⁓ But when know it deeply, You kind of surrender and and furthermore. This is talked about a non-dual traditions I absolutely had this experience where there's knowing there's experiencing at some point the knower drops out There is just the arising of phenomena in the environment and you are all of it Right, and this is what I mean when I say that's partly where you realize that the the fear of loss the fear of death the fear of pain are gone because you just ⁓ the awareness that undergirds the entire environment of of all manifest existence. And once you experience yourself as that, you feel indestructible and there's just this enjoyment of witnessing, again, without even the of
JOY OFIRA: Hmm. It's just so amazing. I'm just thinking about it from the layers of, well, there's belief, and the belief feels like that knowing that we were talking about earlier, that sort of intellectual knowing, that's belief. And then there's what we might use a word, truth. Those are the things that sort of sit more. integral somehow to your body or something you're just no that's true that's the gnosis knowing ⁓ so there's belief knowing the truth knowing and then there's something under that which i feel like is what you were just talking about that's all of it and ⁓ yet none of it i don't am i making any sense at all ⁓
Darren King: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's the ability to perceive everything, but not identify with anything. So you have this sense that why even the notion of death in some ultimate sense becomes an impossibility, because you realize you are manifest thing. You are pure awareness that undergirds all of that.
JOY OFIRA: Mmm. Yeah.
Darren King: no longer you're no more at risk of the things that are manifesting then you are at risk of the things that are manifesting in your dream that you had last night and and and this is is what's about it is that you you experience yourself as I am you have this sense of me that never goes away, but the context blows out So it's like that these little parameters right like I'm this is who I am. This is there and this is there and
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: This is me. I am. I am. I am. Now I'm out here. Right now. Now it's this. Now it's everything all at once. And that never goes away. There's never even like a moment of pause or a reorientation. There's just more information. Right. And even more memory that suddenly comes in. Or we experience it as memory. Right. This is something else I've recognized is that some of what I experienced is sort of transhuman in a way, because
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right.
Darren King: We have just like, when you're translating something from, say, the Inuit have, you know, 20 words for snow and we kind of have one or two in English. So you really have to dumb it down in a similar way. The things that we that register here, right, that we so we can acknowledge something tends to have to come through a certain narrow palette. Right. ⁓ something else I would say about that is that most that is emotional, not cognitive.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right.
Darren King: And so I think as Westerners, and this is something I teach in my classes too, like we really need to embrace the somatic experience. And even again, with the psi phenomena research that's been done, it's usually people's bodies that know, right, precognitively, sometimes the mind, but often not. In fact, there's really fascinating research that's been done where, and this again shows, I think hints at the fact that we are distributed across different layers of reality.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: But we have the experience of I just chose something. But when they study response, they see the body knows something has been decided ⁓ before ⁓ the even has a chance to chew through the idea. I mean, several seconds, actually. It's not even milliseconds. It's several seconds. And so what realize is what's really arising or what's happening is there is an arising and it comes into your awareness. And at some point.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right.
Darren King: There's this registry that happens, this registration layer. And that often comes in as an idea and even the sense of agency, right? I just chose, I'm going to go for a walk, right? Now we need to have that experience because that is what, that's the color set that we use here, right? ⁓ when you really pay close attention, when you drop into deep meditation and also just even empirical results we can study in science now.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Yeah.
Darren King: It's clear that this is an arising coming from beyond the frame altogether. so ⁓ can both experiential understanding as well as empirical evidence pointing to the fact that this is just a narrow transducer. ⁓ Like so the mind like a transducing of of like a radio station that you said earlier. And it's you know, it no more destroys the music than like killing the radio or the ghetto blaster or your MP3 player isn't going to hurt the radio wave that's non-local. Right.
JOY OFIRA: Right, and it doesn't change it at all. It just receives it and it to you in a way that you can understand. It makes me think about the diagrams that I've seen of the electromagnetic field of a human and how it's sort torus-shaped, right? And it comes from the heart and it comes up and around and the idea that
Darren King: Right. Right.
JOY OFIRA: Possibly if that's true and that's how reception is happening through our bodies and the somatic experience, it's entering through the heart and then it takes a little bit to get up into your brain, right? For that sort of conscious knowing we would call conscious because it's the intellectual though there is a somatic knowing ahead of time, sort of what you're saying. loving this whole discussion so much. ⁓
Darren King: Yeah. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: I also did think of a question and it's kind of a big one and sort of in a different direction and sort of thorny. What came up for me was that there's a lot going on with NHI. people are saying there's going to be disclosure, disclosure, whatever disclosure may be. Right. But it does feel like there's a lot of information that's coming out into our awareness right now about reality about the structure of reality and when I say not just the structure as far as physics or Molecules i'm talking about the structure of power the structure of culture the structure of how all humans are relating on the and how just life, how things get done, right? It just feels like, wow, we're getting a lot of information right now that's not even necessarily what quote unquote would be disclosure and from the UFO perspective, right? But what you think about When disclosure happens, if disclosure happens, ⁓ is that? How that functioning within people and within the culture and within the global perspective? so that's a very small question, but...
Darren King: Right, right.
JOY OFIRA: just wondering your perspective on it from the lens of our whole discussion, because if you start with a perspective of receiving information that you thought was just not possible, maybe this whole reality isn't what we expect. And then you receive information that kind of confirms that because now there's some government official and standing at a podium and saying reality isn't what you thought. What do you think? Like, what do you think is?
Darren King: Well, yeah, mean, I mean, that the huge one, the first huge question of many like, what is the nature of what's being disclosed? And I find it funny, kind of to watch the the community of, you know, the or or ufology talking about this, because everyone assumes that we're talking the same thing. When is disclosure going to happen? A capital D disclosure. And and so for some that means We're finally going to realize we're not alone. We're finally going to realize we're not alone and they're here. finally going to realize, you know, we're not alone. They're here and they're interacting with us. It gets increasingly consequential. But then, as I say, one of the that's really interesting, and this is something I'm going to cover in a POC episode coming up this weekend, is ⁓ how one revelation inevitably ⁓ there's a porous outline it and bleeds to the next. consequential matter where you'll get some people consistently saying within our culture which has a you know a large Christian focus or a Christian background there's still a lot of people percentage-wise who are raised in evangelical or slash fundamentalist circles who will knee-jerk react by saying this is demons sometimes angels but usually they default to demons because anything that's unfamiliar tends to fall in that category. this ⁓ of Satan parade as an angel of light gets used. a blank they use to write every light in the sky. And no matter how good the experience someone has is, how seemingly loving it is, people will just say that's a dupe, right? It's just trying to deceive you. That's what they do. Now, as much as is an overreach and kind of a knee-jerk reaction, you can't deny the fact that there is an intersection with like the occult. with ⁓ the inner world and light of what we've been saying, part of what disclosure entails is not just who we are, who these beings are, but even this false separation between the inner life and the outer life, right? They're just sort of two different ways of seeing the same thing. And so in many ways, that's when you, you you might develop some outer technology ⁓ using, really physics.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: But fascinatingly, when you look at what arises there and the revelations that arise, it's very similar to what other traditions that have used inner technology, right? Deep meditative states and whatnot, hypnotic states, occultic practices have to some similar conclusions. And it's sort of like, you you take sphere and you sort of head out in two different directions. One goes east, one goes west. Inevitably, they meet on the other side at some point, right? That's what we're And so
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I would also say, too, that definitely is a process, not an event. And I say the process is well underway and has been underway for quite a while. And it is certainly, when we have congressional committees happening at a level where it took maybe 50 years to have one or two. Now we're having a of year kind of thing. And, some people I know, like Eric Davis, who's fun to talk to. ⁓ when he gets in front of these Congress people and will say, yeah, grays, reptilians, mantis beings, he starts naming the beings. And you can see the look on some of these ⁓ Congress people's because now we're going from something that is somewhat palatable, which is that, okay, the universe is big, there must be life out there, to okay, there must be other kinds of But then when you start naming ⁓ the intelligence, the they are, and also, again, how... ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: preposterous from a certain perspective these shapes and forms and morphologies seem to some people because this is another big question of which there's different to explain it, you know around why the humanoid shape right? Why is this so common over and over again? What do we do with these beings that seem almost entirely human but not quite? Some people will postulate that might be us from the future. I think that's part of it. But again ⁓ If space time is not foundational, then them being from the future is still some sort of downstream rendering of what they really are ⁓ or what they are at a more foundational level. I think it's fascinating. And of course, one of the interesting things that's come up is that you'll get, I see quite often now on social media, people trying to get the click bait. The sensationalist headlines will say things like Congressperson says She now knows they're talking about Luna here, that these are interdimensional beings, not extraterrestrial. this is something Nathan and I like to bring up is that that's a placeholder term. Like the notion ⁓ number one, is not physical. Ultimately, it might seem that way, but that's just the way it's the it's the experience it. And so not only is this physical, but because materialist scientists have wanted to say it is, One of the ways they've made sense of how fine tune this seems for life. It seems almost like it's been created for life or host life. They'll postulate. Well, maybe there's many other maybe there's myriad numbers of physical universes. And we just, of course, happen to spin up in the one that is conducive for life. But there's many that don't have light. But that's all a wild postulation. It's an abstraction. We don't have any empirical evidence for those things. So people ironically try to together ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: some notions of reality with the evidence of the UFO phenomenon that seems much stranger than just space aliens. What people default to is, well, they're extradimensionals or inter-dimensionals. But again, that begs the question, what does that mean? ⁓ intersection between culture, our scientific of the world, the way that's shifting, and the nature of the phenomena that's so diverse that that creates a really interesting possibility space that we're seeing unfold.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right. That's where I'm at there is a congressperson about inter-dimensionals. So already, like you're saying, disclosure is happening. It's already happening. ⁓ it's not gonna be one event, and that's disclosure. You find out everything at once, right? ⁓ But even her saying inter-dimensionals, some people are going to They're gonna have to reorient their reality around that. so we are entering a time Where this feels like it's accelerating and this information coming into our awareness. how does one reorient? once those layers the onion are being removed one at time, you can handle it, but do you deal with those moments where it's just hearing that and making you go like, whoa, because like when I was listening to you speak to Nathan about these ideas about idealism it wasn't like I had a paranormal experience, but it kind of felt like I did, in a way, like my feeling afterward is the same sort of feeling that people describe having after having an experience where ⁓ I saw something that shouldn't have happened. And then you just don't know what to do with it. It was the same sort post experience experience. do we integrate? what do you recommend? ⁓
Darren King: Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, one thing I would say that sort of became clear to me when I was outside the construct and came back in, because again, you start recontextualizing the events of your life. You start recognizing that energetic themes always felt have come in with you. And so one thing that's to ⁓ and there's somewhat, think, again, as downstream correlation, right? shows up in some of the physiological substrates, some of the genetic patterning that relates to anomalous cognition and anomalous perception. So in other words, some people with certain genetic traits tend to disproportionately experience these things we tend to call the paranormal and whatnot. Now, again, I that is just again at registration layer. It's going to look like a certain pattern in the brain. I don't think it's actually causing it. Right. ⁓ And Donald Hoffman ⁓ neuroscientists at University of California Irvine will say that to his colleagues. They're like, yeah, I love what you're doing. And he kind of realizes they're not getting how consequential it is. He's like, I'm saying your neurons are not real, right? That's an appearance, you know? And for a cognitive neuroscientist to like hear that from one of their colleagues, it's a bit of a shock to the system, right? But, know, Bernardo Castrip, know, will say the same thing. But he's coming more from the
JOY OFIRA: Right? Right.
Darren King: philosophy perspective, but he would say that the things we're seeing are more like the dashboard dials, And levers like you're in a plane and you're moving dials, but that's actually just corresponding to something that's happening out in the air. ⁓ And you'll even say if it's a storm, you'll have to fly by your dials and look at like, you know, the graphs and things like that, because you can't see. Well, the point he's making is that what we of reality is actually that it's a dashboard of dials and levers and and charts and things, right? It's not the actual reality out there. The point I'm making is though, is that I want to get at here is that ⁓ think different people are prepared for different levels of reorientation. when comes out, of course, part of the challenge of the time is that we're so divided politically and there's so much tribalism within sociopolitical framing in our country and to some degree around the world. That there is no one authoritative source, right? That we will say, so and so said it. So now I know it's true. I need to reorient. We're going to have different appeals to different authorities. Some of those authorities will say it's not real at all. Don't believe it. It's a psyops. Some will say don't believe it's aliens. It's actually demons. You're going to get the full gamut, right? And sociopolitically across the board. And I think just from a again, a cognitive dissonance
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of perspective. We know that people usually only ⁓ shift worldview there's so much mounting evidence that they have no other choice. But up until that point they will do they will explain it away. They'll say, that's an outlier. Well that's not so well supported. I don't know that I trust this person. So even after this moment and again it's not a moment it's a series of events but even once we
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: across a certain threshold, it's still gonna be like a bell curve, right? We're still gonna have some people coming on board, some not. And furthermore, I would say, you this is probably even more discombobulating for some people, but I think and again, it's not so much that we chose before to have a certain life because time is not real, right? It's not, doesn't happen sequentially like that outside of this construct, but is a way that, what we experience here, like I know now that what I experience, what I am experiencing here was very much determined by what I am outside of this construct as well. ⁓ so I now that I was going to have this kind of experience, an experience my understanding of reality gets turned upside down. And I also know that or I can feel sometimes it's hard to describe what it is. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Mm, mm.
Darren King: But I have a way of charting there's an aspect of a super intelligence outside of this that is testing to see how much I hold without completely falling basically. ⁓ And different have different thresholds for that. And even that's why don't give out the details of my protocol, because I think some people might not have a good experience at all.
JOY OFIRA: Right, right.
Darren King: You know, you you really have to be pretty grounded. It's it's dangerous physiologically psychologically if if you're not prepared this again speaks to how ⁓ way reality renders itself is partly by the configuration of our consciousness So it's it's it's really fascinating and I think I would say generally, know some sort general rules or guidelines I would when you're Interacting with people say friends and family colleagues and you want to talk to them about this stuff Definitely pay attention to the degree of curiosity pay attention to when you're seeing what looks like resistance and don't just force your way past that right like be be respectful recognize some people Even after it's disclosed will not embrace it for a variety of reasons Try to you know, be kind in how you do it And I would say also one thing I have really focused on, as you mentioned, this absolutely is my entire life, but people I work with and interact with are the people who are ⁓ on course, ⁓ right? ⁓ don't, it's that I wanna say something like I don't wanna waste my time with those who don't, but it's just, you you have a sense of what you feel called to. It's very clear to me and you you and I have had some conversation about this that... Like even when it comes to something like neurodivergence. I definitely in my family background have a neurodivergent kind of substrate. And I noticed that it's ⁓ it's again your typical framing tends to look at something like neurodivergence, it tends to see it as an anomaly, something to be fixed, something to be, ⁓ you know, countered. But, you know, like this person that is like a good friend of mine that I.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I practice radical transparency with and we have almost like a psychic connection. She and I and we have similar those some ⁓ patterning is similar for both of us. And I know you and I have touched by this some degree. ⁓ And so the that we will know things once you slow down and start paying attention to how you know it, it's not through any of the usual means that we think it is. So even when you think about disclosure, I think another outlier element that's really interesting is that
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yes, yes.
Darren King: I think humankind is changing like humankind is has always been evolving. I think the explosion of neurodivergence is actually related to this different way of rendering reality. And that being to some degree seeded and managed by a super intelligence that's outside of this particular frame, which ultimately we are not separate from also because we're distributed across different levels of reality, because when you recognize that everything, everyone is arising from that unitive pure awareness, then again, any distinction you make, then they can be helpful to distinguish sometimes, but you do understand that to some degree it's arbitrary. Yeah.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. I was thinking about that earlier when you were talking about the idea of reality, how large it is and that, we have all these filters and that's how we survive. Right. neurodivergent people are to have perception that is more open. Right. ⁓ It's seen as a problem that you have sensory overload. that you're not able to get through a normal current American capitalist day with amount of that you have, Because it's too much, considered to be too much. And you're feeling you're everything, you're sensing everything, you're aware of it in a way that is seen as ⁓ problematic instead of seen as... a gift, right? that if, the world is structured in such a way that is taking care people, is in community with people that have these kinds of sensory perceptions, that it isn't a problem. Right? If you're not, if you, can set up your life or day to day in a way that works with that, it isn't a problem. And it also makes me think of, prior traditions and, some people feel like the word shaman is problematic but there's not a lot of great English words for the idea of a shaman, right? Or like a spiritual person that has a certain job. But that job is not going out and hunting. That is not cooking. That job is because they have this other. set of skills and awareness, that like it kind of all dovetailed back almost to where we started.
Darren King: Yeah, And ironically, though, the shaman may not be in charge of going in and hunting food. But what he with his anomalous might tell the tribe go west because that's where the food is. Right. So and so it's actionable intelligence. It's not just, well, I have these fun trips, these fun journeys like it's. ⁓ And when I, know, use this protocol, which I did as recently as a couple of days ago,
JOY OFIRA: ⁓ right. Right. Right.
Darren King: actually can perceive the future and and and it helps you helps you which direction to go. So I often describe it to people as and that's a very shamanic way of perceiving and navigating the world. So I describe it to people again, ⁓ it's not usual kind of knowing. not going to to something. Someone go, OK, now I know what you But I can.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: I can sort of point into the fog and say it's like this. It's sort of like, when you you knock on a wall and when you get to the stud behind the wall, right, it sounds different, right? There's a different response resistance than when just like empty space. So when I'm into what I should do in the future, that's what happens. It's like tapping a wall and going, ⁓ there's something there that tells me that has a probability range that is worth exploring.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Yeah.
Darren King: or if something feels kind of vacuous and empty, I go that I don't think there's much resonance there. And again, people might go, well, it sounds like magical and mystical. And it's like, no, that's just the way reality actually is. Right. We are, you know, we are rendering things in a certain sequence in a certain order. But the whole thing already interrelates as a coexistence. Right. And so there's ways you can experience that. And the other thing is, too, as another example.
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: of like a modern shamanic kind of perspective. I have a friend a coaching client who works in data, right? So I often find that people that have this gift do really well with data because even with this vast shows of data, they can intuitively feel patterns in the data. Right. So and that's definitely case for me and for him. You know, he works the oil and gas industry for like.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah, pattern matching. Yeah.
Darren King: this large corporation that makes decisions like multimillion dollar decisions about where where deposits of fuel and things are. And for him, he uses anomalous perception to intuitively understand relationships and then sometimes has to wrestle with how do I translate this? So in the board meeting, they know how I know this, but they know that he does know it like It's been helpful for that corporation. Right. ⁓ And so
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right.
Darren King: And up until now, we've had to sort of like it in kind of a clunky way to something that, say, neurotypical people can understand. I'm not trying to like make this a black and white thing. I think there's a range of of and perception, but ⁓ sometimes does not fit the usual patterns that neurotypical describe patterns for how something can be known at all. And again, when people go, I'm not sure if I believe in this magic mumbo jumbo stuff with shamans and everything, it's like. It's not magic mumbo jumbo. It's the way reality actually is. you if if you really ⁓ with that, then look at the neuroscience research, look at the astronomical research, look at the quantum physics research and you'll realize that it fits ⁓ remarkably comports remarkably well with ancient non dual framings of what reality is itself. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right, exactly. Yeah, that's kind of been my whole show so far. Right? You take the old, the ancient, and you take the science and you say look, look, it does all up actually. And I was thinking about your friend and how he's looking at vast of data, And kind of feeling the pattern in it. And what came into my mind is the idea of a dowser, you know, a dowser who goes out and has a stick or has a feeling to find the well, to find the water. And it's very similar, right? But it's just a different set of data. Either you're out in a field or you're in a field of data like all this data, but it's all data.
Darren King: And ⁓ it's interesting because, I have a background in software engineering and I to recognize these parallels some of what I was doing in that field and what I'm realizing about reality. So, for instance, in database structures, there's different kinds of that we group data, that we ⁓ keep data together and understand the relationships. one of the more recent ones is notion of what's called a knowledge graph. where you try to map not just ⁓ the fact that are connected, but also the nature of the relationships, right? So with AI, for instance, what is making ⁓ AI increasingly powerful is that recognize how two ideas related, but you store the nature of that relationship, right? So.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah.
Darren King: Cat and dog have a certain relationship which you store in a certain kind of dimensional framing. ⁓ Dog and bone have a different relationship, right? Both in terms of cats and dogs have bones, but a ⁓ dog will actually chase a bone, right? So not only store as a connection, but you store the direction of the connection. And so happens for neurodivergent people use really general term,
JOY OFIRA: Right?
Darren King: that are really good with pattern recognition. That's a big part of how I do all of this. Like how I knew to create podcast and see these patterns is because that's how I experienced them, right? And so then I ⁓ see big part of my role as like ⁓ a right? Taking those nonverbal, nonlinear and then lay that out people. But you sort of recognize and sort of think about it this way. I say this to the sometimes to people is that You can say, you know, what is the color blue? And that has a certain, you know, idea that comes to mind, but it's probably going to be fairly narrow. But if you think about, what comes to mind when you think about a relationship you were in and suddenly it's this vast trove of interrelated data, it's beauty, it's sorrow, it's hardship, it's, you know, it's euphoria, it's. It's all these things simultaneously, right? And that's why I partly say again, we really need to reintroduce into Western culture a somatic experience of life because of like this multi-dimensional reality and how ⁓ have to register it here, there's more bandwidth available in the body than there is in the brain, right? And so when we don't realize that we're missing out, right? But it's, know, another way to think about it is the analogy of when someone says, OK, what is Christmas? And ⁓ Christmas is red and green and white and blue lights and Christmas trees and Santa Claus and Jesus and commercialism. It gets that web of meaning that's immediately available and not just the web, but the nature of the relationships and the connections. Right. So.
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Right.
Darren King: This is what the pattern recognition is like. And you can experience something and not just go, that's post, but suddenly all the ways that post relates to ⁓ all other kind of information and you can know all of it simultaneously. ⁓ So that ends up to your point being framed overwhelmed, Like too much information. ⁓ don't perform well an assembly line kind of culture, right? ⁓ When you do thing repeatedly, ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Right. Right. Right, right.
Darren King: But I think what's happening again, and I think this is partly a fine tuning of our civilization from this sort of meta intelligence is that as there's more and more of us that perceive the world that way, then it will no longer be neurodivergent at some point. It will begin to approach neuro typical. And then the world we create will reflect that way of knowing and being. And I think because there's a greater emphasis on authenticity, it's much harder to just
JOY OFIRA: Right.
Darren King: down and do something because you make money from it. It's harder to experience the way because you experience the fullness of the implications of what you're doing. ⁓ so I think it will actually create a more just and compassionate culture ultimately. And I think that's kind of where things are going. That's part of disclosure in the big picture too.
JOY OFIRA: Right. Yeah. I think that's so beautiful and exactly where I would love everything to be headed. I really think that's actually probably a good place for us to close our discussion because ⁓ ending on a really beautiful note. ⁓ thank you so much. ⁓ can't even express how much I have appreciated this discussion. ⁓ there anything else you would like to say
Darren King: Beautiful. that I've appreciated the conversation too and the nature of the questions. And I'm able to go in what I consider interesting directions when I'm talking to someone who also has some of this anomalous perception and cognition and is already themselves putting together some of those relationships. So for me, this ⁓ the most interesting conversation have. ⁓ I hope we have more of them as a general society because that helps speed up this transition we're going through. ⁓
JOY OFIRA: Yeah. Well, I will say that's definitely the case. I hope we have more discussions like this as a society. ⁓ And with that, we will close. ⁓ And this has been ⁓ first many to come for the future thank you so much
Darren King: Yeah, you're so welcome, Joy. Great to meet you and yeah, I look forward to doing it again sometime. Okay, all right.
JOY OFIRA: Awesome, thanks.
