S1E9: 'Transformational Learning: Building upon a Year in Industry' Module Panel with Sarah Wenham and Isabel Haque

WEBVTT
00:08.560 --> 00:13.040
Actually processing the experience and looking back on that, I feel like it
00:13.200 --> 00:16.720
now looks different because I know how I can use it. And it's those
00:16.960 --> 00:20.480
reflections on like having like a proactive attitude has really changed the way
00:20.980 --> 00:23.440
in which like I applied myself to my final year. Like I just took so
00:23.600 --> 00:26.960
many other opportunities. You're not just talking about theory here,
00:27.280 --> 00:31.190
you're you're applying it to your experience, and your experience is obviously
00:31.590 --> 00:34.790
very different. Even if the experience is the same, your perspective on
00:34.870 --> 00:38.550
it is different. That's why it's such a powerful force, experiential learning,
00:38.710 --> 00:41.830
because it allows people to, to sort of explore them,
00:42.870 --> 00:47.110
explore other people, and make sense to make things better.
00:47.270 --> 00:50.790
Hello and welcome back to The Experience Effect, the University of Leeds
00:51.030 --> 00:54.870
podcast dedicated to showcasing the amazing work in experiential learning taking place
00:55.030 --> 00:58.150
in higher education to make learning more dynamic, robust,
00:58.470 --> 01:02.240
and relevant. We're your hosts, Anna and Imogen, and in this
01:02.480 --> 01:06.640
episode we're delighted to welcome our panel members Sarah Wenham, Student Careers
01:06.720 --> 01:10.320
Lead and tutor on the module Transformational Learning: Building Upon
01:10.820 --> 01:14.800
a Year in Industry, and Isabel Haack, a student of BA English and Comparative
01:15.200 --> 01:19.200
Literature at the University of Leeds who completed her year in industry at
01:19.280 --> 01:23.280
Disney. This fascinating conversation features Sarah's perspective as
01:23.780 --> 01:27.760
an academic and Isabel's perspective as a student from a module which encourages
01:28.000 --> 01:31.900
reflection on the complexities of a year in industry to help students articulate articulate their
01:32.140 --> 01:35.980
experiences of placement. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah and Isabel.
01:36.540 --> 01:39.660
Thank you. Thank you very much. So to get started, Sarah, can you
01:39.740 --> 01:42.940
tell us a little bit about your module Transformational Learning: Building Upon
01:43.440 --> 01:45.980
a Year in Industry, and did you have any specific goals in mind when you
01:46.140 --> 01:49.500
designed the module? Well, I inherited the module when I first came
01:49.660 --> 01:53.020
to Leeds 8 years ago. Um, it wasn't
01:53.100 --> 01:56.780
called this, it was called something else, um, and I
01:56.940 --> 02:00.380
sort of was parachuted into it about 4 weeks in because there
02:00.880 --> 02:04.300
was a real issue going on with students and they were very upset
02:04.540 --> 02:07.260
about a mark they got over a presentation, so I had to go and sort
02:07.340 --> 02:10.060
that out. And I remember thinking, what's going on with this group?
02:11.020 --> 02:12.860
And they were so focused on their mark,
02:14.140 --> 02:16.780
that was all they cared about was what mark did I get, and I was
02:17.280 --> 02:21.020
thinking, but you've all done this amazing experience, and it was also study abroad students
02:21.180 --> 02:23.980
were there as well, so it was actually a mix of placement, year in industry
02:24.300 --> 02:28.030
and placement students. Sorry, study abroad students. And the study abroad
02:28.190 --> 02:31.870
students particularly were very vexed about what
02:31.950 --> 02:34.910
they wanted to do was they needed to get a first because they wanted to
02:35.070 --> 02:38.990
apply to a graduate scheme. And this was— and I remember thinking, so we,
02:39.230 --> 02:42.430
you know, did the module and I was thinking, we need to change this.
02:42.590 --> 02:45.070
This isn't working. The reason they're doing this is,
02:46.190 --> 02:50.030
you know, is not because they think that they're
02:50.530 --> 02:54.370
going to really get something from it, but actually because, it's probably easy marks and,
02:54.770 --> 02:56.770
you know, it's the follow-on.
02:57.970 --> 03:01.490
So then I was able to redesign it and what I did was got rid
03:01.990 --> 03:04.610
of study abroad, come back to that later,
03:05.330 --> 03:08.130
and just kept it for a year in industry students because they're 2 different animals,
03:08.610 --> 03:11.730
you know. Students had gone and worked for a year versus students that had gone
03:12.230 --> 03:16.050
and studied somewhere for a year, just had had this very different experience and actually
03:16.290 --> 03:20.150
had different needs. So I
03:20.310 --> 03:24.390
wanted it to be broader. I wanted the students to go
03:24.630 --> 03:28.230
beyond the theory. It was very theory-based. There was
03:28.310 --> 03:31.910
obviously some reflection in it, but it was all very individual and
03:32.410 --> 03:35.670
it was all very about me and what I've done on that year and that
03:35.750 --> 03:40.830
was it. They didn't talk about before that, after that.
03:42.550 --> 03:46.390
So when I sat down to design it, the main focus was,
03:48.550 --> 03:51.430
why did you pick it in the first place? What's led you to this?
03:52.470 --> 03:56.550
Who's influenced you? How was your university
03:57.030 --> 04:00.150
experience? The 2— you've done 2 years already. How has that fed into it?
04:00.310 --> 04:03.510
How did coming to university in the first place feed into it? Because all
04:04.010 --> 04:07.510
of these points is a transition for anybody,
04:08.150 --> 04:11.430
you know, moving to university is a transition, going into placements is a
04:11.590 --> 04:14.740
transition, popping out again, back to university, and then going
04:14.900 --> 04:18.180
on to a graduate job. So I wanted to sort of structure it so
04:18.260 --> 04:21.460
that we made sense of a journey rather than a moment
04:21.780 --> 04:25.460
in time, and then we just forget about it. So that's sort
04:25.960 --> 04:29.380
of where it came from. That's where the sort of transformational tag came, the thing
04:29.460 --> 04:33.620
as well, that actually, if you've not been away for a year and worked for
04:34.120 --> 04:38.180
a year and you've not been transformed, something has gone horribly wrong.
04:38.350 --> 04:41.630
So what is that transformation? Do you really understand how
04:41.870 --> 04:45.470
powerful it was? And that was the starting point, really. And Isabel,
04:45.550 --> 04:49.150
what expectations did you have when going into this module? Did your
04:49.390 --> 04:52.590
experience of the module surprise you in any way? Yeah, I think that
04:52.750 --> 04:56.110
my expectations were different. I've picked it as like my discovery module.
04:56.510 --> 04:59.470
So again, obviously it's very different from all the modules that I've been taking for
04:59.630 --> 05:02.990
my course. And so that's kind of the first, I suppose,
05:03.070 --> 05:06.660
level of expectation that you have. And then I've been picking kind of like
05:06.820 --> 05:10.820
business discovery modules throughout like my time at Leeds because that's
05:11.320 --> 05:14.580
something I did at my A-levels and I've always been interested in it and I
05:14.660 --> 05:17.860
kind of knew that I was probably going to go into a business-type job after
05:18.100 --> 05:21.300
finishing my degree anyway. So I think in my head I was
05:21.540 --> 05:24.980
comparing it to those kind of business modules that I'd taken before and a lot
05:25.480 --> 05:28.260
of the content that I'd kind of seen in it, like there were some crossovers
05:28.340 --> 05:32.160
from ones that I'd seen. And I'd actually heard from other business
05:32.480 --> 05:35.840
students that were taking that module as well, so I kind of was expecting
05:36.080 --> 05:39.520
it to be kind of something like that, but it was definitely different from that,
05:40.020 --> 05:42.640
and it was definitely more diverse than I thought it was going to be.
05:42.720 --> 05:45.760
Like, that was probably the main expectation that I really enjoyed,
05:46.080 --> 05:49.440
was like getting to speak to students from all different courses,
05:49.940 --> 05:51.520
and I thought that it was probably just going to be like me and a
05:52.020 --> 05:54.800
bunch of business students like it's been over the past, you know, 3 or 4
05:54.960 --> 05:58.560
years up until then, but actually That's, I suppose, what subverted
05:59.060 --> 06:02.880
my expectations. So experiential learning is complex, resulting in both successes
06:03.040 --> 06:06.640
and struggles, and often a combination of the two. So Sarah, how does this module
06:07.040 --> 06:10.800
help students to process the complexities of a year in industry? I suppose,
06:11.760 --> 06:15.120
you know, linking back to my previous point, you know, it's not just
06:15.620 --> 06:19.200
a question of what happened. And I think that's interesting to
06:19.280 --> 06:22.960
know from you as well, Isabel, whether, you know, you'd have probably
06:23.120 --> 06:26.880
done some reflective work whilst you were on placement, because everyone has
06:27.280 --> 06:31.000
slightly different assessments. Even though it's a pass/fail thing,
06:31.500 --> 06:35.240
isn't it? Um, but it's generally about, well, what's happened rather
06:35.640 --> 06:39.240
than sort of try and place that in context. So because
06:39.320 --> 06:42.440
nothing happens in vacuum, does it? You know, it's like, you know, the,
06:42.520 --> 06:45.880
the reason something has happened on placement is probably because of the way that you
06:46.120 --> 06:49.880
approached it. It probably might be the way you prepared for it. Um, but equally
06:50.360 --> 06:53.000
it might be nothing to do with you, and we sort of COVID that quite
06:53.500 --> 06:56.860
a bit, don't we, about other people and the impact of other people on you
06:57.020 --> 07:00.940
and how do you respond to that, because that's what you have control over.
07:01.440 --> 07:05.580
You don't really have control over what other people do. So I think the
07:05.900 --> 07:09.820
idea about successes and failures, we sort of look at that and we embrace failure.
07:10.540 --> 07:13.980
In the reflective report, chuck in as many things that went horribly
07:14.140 --> 07:17.980
wrong as possible, as long as you are trying to figure out why
07:18.140 --> 07:21.100
did that happen and what could I do differently next time. I mean,
07:21.420 --> 07:24.940
we've had over every year, sometimes a bit more serious than
07:25.440 --> 07:28.560
others, but we sort of introduce ourselves, don't we, at the start, and we sort
07:28.640 --> 07:30.880
of go, you know, what was your placement? What was it like? You know,
07:31.040 --> 07:34.160
how would you sort of rate it? Um, and lots of people are very positive,
07:34.560 --> 07:37.440
but you do get people when it was awful, it was awful.
07:38.160 --> 07:41.440
There's usually one company I won't name that they always say the same, like,
07:41.520 --> 07:45.280
yeah, well, we knew that would happen. Anyway, I won't name and shame. Um,
07:45.920 --> 07:49.360
but, you know, I remember really clearly a couple of years ago, actually,
07:49.600 --> 07:53.130
it wasn't that long ago, uh, one guy said It was
07:53.370 --> 07:57.130
just awful. Everything went wrong. I didn't enjoy any
07:57.210 --> 08:00.810
of it. I wish I hadn't done it. I see it was
08:01.310 --> 08:05.130
a really negative experience. And he was— you could
08:05.210 --> 08:08.170
see him also being quite upset because other people were going, oh, mine was great.
08:08.670 --> 08:12.410
I had such an amazing— but, you know, at the end, and he
08:12.570 --> 08:15.930
wrote— not only wrote it in his reflective report, he wrote me a very lengthy
08:16.090 --> 08:20.410
email afterwards going, I have totally done a 360 on
08:20.650 --> 08:24.650
what my experience was now. Because I now understand all
08:24.730 --> 08:27.290
these things that happened, one, necessarily weren't my fault.
08:27.850 --> 08:30.570
Some of them were actually, and I need to take responsibility for that.
08:31.210 --> 08:34.570
But actually, I now know I got so much from it and I
08:34.730 --> 08:37.210
just blocked it out and thought, I'm not even gonna think about it.
08:37.930 --> 08:41.690
So, you know, that ability to make sense of
08:41.850 --> 08:45.450
what has happened, to either put things right
08:45.690 --> 08:49.730
next time or build on it or whatever, I think that for me is,
08:50.530 --> 08:52.530
One of the things around experiential learning that you,
08:53.970 --> 08:57.490
you know, it's difficult and almost impossible
08:58.050 --> 09:01.650
to reflect unless you've done something. So that, and obviously that's the point of experiential
09:01.970 --> 09:04.930
learning. It's not just about doing the thing,
09:05.810 --> 09:09.250
whether it's a one-off thing in a session or a whole year
09:09.490 --> 09:11.250
placement. It's sort of,
09:12.930 --> 09:16.130
why am I even doing this thing? Was I proactive about it before
09:16.630 --> 09:18.610
I went into it? And that's another one that'd be interesting for you as well,
09:18.690 --> 09:21.750
you know, lots of people just, do a year in industry because I think I
09:21.830 --> 09:25.190
should do. Good advice, but why did they
09:25.350 --> 09:28.390
apply to that organisation? Well, it was the one that accepted me,
09:28.550 --> 09:32.430
or— so there's maybe not a huge amount of thinking going into it,
09:32.790 --> 09:36.790
and when you're in it, there's so much going on that you probably don't
09:37.290 --> 09:39.990
get the chance to stop and think about it. So we'd say at the start
09:40.070 --> 09:42.630
of the module, you know, for students, you've got 2 hours a week just to
09:43.130 --> 09:46.150
think about you. This is all about you. It's a real luxury.
09:47.370 --> 09:51.050
Make the most of that. I mean, our attendance at it
09:51.130 --> 09:55.210
is brilliant because I think people come and they do get so
09:55.370 --> 09:58.490
much from it, the sessions themselves, let alone the sort of then
09:58.570 --> 10:02.570
going away and thinking about it. And I think that's what an experiential learning type
10:02.730 --> 10:06.010
module should be, that students want to go because they know that that experience
10:06.410 --> 10:09.370
is going to, even if it's a teaching experience, is going to give them something
10:10.090 --> 10:13.370
really powerful. Yeah, and I guess having the psychological safety to say,
10:13.450 --> 10:17.510
well, this didn't go perfect. And that's where the
10:17.590 --> 10:20.870
peer learning is so huge.
10:21.910 --> 10:25.190
And that's the other point of the module, really, that the module is
10:25.270 --> 10:28.470
only ever as good as the discussions from everybody in the class. It's not me,
10:28.550 --> 10:31.830
I just sort of set people off, you know, it's the discussions between you.
10:31.990 --> 10:35.670
And like you said, Isabel, you know, you meet people from zoology and from,
10:35.910 --> 10:40.070
you know, physics and from computer science. Sustainable fashion and
10:40.230 --> 10:43.510
things that I didn't even know that we did at Leeds. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:44.010 --> 10:46.490
Fun in the first place to find that out, definitely, where they'd been and what
10:46.570 --> 10:50.490
they'd done. And Sarah, why do you think it is so vital to take time
10:50.810 --> 10:55.210
to articulate, analyse, and reflect on experiential learning?
10:55.290 --> 10:59.130
I mean, all the way through we talk about the so what. You know,
10:59.630 --> 11:02.170
I'm not interested in your reflections if there's not a so what about it.
11:02.330 --> 11:05.370
If you just tell me what happened, that's just telling a story. So that,
11:05.770 --> 11:08.810
that process of going so what
11:09.620 --> 11:13.220
And what next is the key
11:13.380 --> 11:16.740
to it. Because it's not saying it's wasted if you don't do
11:16.820 --> 11:21.220
that, because we're always gonna get something from our experiences. But if
11:21.380 --> 11:24.420
you can package it up and go, do you know what,
11:24.500 --> 11:27.860
that's changed me, or that's altered the way I think about something
11:28.180 --> 11:31.300
or someone, 'cause a lot of it might be just our perspective on life has
11:31.460 --> 11:34.740
changed rather than our skillset or even
11:34.980 --> 11:38.170
our knowledge. But I think the
11:38.330 --> 11:41.690
key to all of this is scaffolding it. So none
11:42.190 --> 11:44.570
of us, if you go, go on, sit and reflect about that, I go,
11:45.930 --> 11:48.570
what am I reflecting about? What, you know,
11:49.050 --> 11:52.490
which bits am I going to look at? You know, you've got to scaffold.
11:52.990 --> 11:56.810
And I think again, that's why at least giving students an opportunity in
11:56.890 --> 11:59.450
an assessed module where you scaffold this,
12:00.730 --> 12:03.950
what's the purpose of me reflecting in the first place? What was the purpose
12:04.110 --> 12:07.950
of me going on that experience in the first place? And just
12:08.030 --> 12:11.470
sort of sit outside that bubble of you. And again,
12:11.550 --> 12:15.230
that's why, you know, I sit and listen to your conversations on the tables in
12:15.310 --> 12:18.750
the module. Someone will go, oh, I had a great experience
12:18.990 --> 12:22.430
with my manager, they were brilliant, they did that. And someone goes, mine was awful.
12:23.790 --> 12:27.470
And you go, really? And then the person might be thinking that their
12:27.710 --> 12:30.910
experience with their manager was awful because of something that they'd done or their approach.
12:31.150 --> 12:34.440
And actually, when they start to listen to others, they go, do you know
12:34.520 --> 12:38.360
what? It wasn't me. You know, I just maybe had just
12:38.440 --> 12:42.360
a bad manager or an inexperienced manager or a stressed manager or
12:42.860 --> 12:46.280
whatever it might be. And so I think that ability to
12:47.800 --> 12:51.480
not only articulate your experience, but to listen to others.
12:51.560 --> 12:55.080
You know, we do quite a bit around intersectionality. So, you know,
12:55.580 --> 12:58.600
I'm very clear that this is about building managers and leaders of the future as
12:58.680 --> 13:02.280
well. And if you go back into that world, it's your responsibility to
13:02.360 --> 13:05.780
make sure the people are not discriminated against, and it's
13:06.280 --> 13:09.460
not just people like you that get on. And this— so we, we touched on
13:09.620 --> 13:13.460
quite important issues just by reflecting on what happened
13:13.940 --> 13:17.540
to us. I don't know whether you found that with any of your discussions.
13:17.940 --> 13:21.540
Was it interesting listening to others? Yeah, it was. Even like not necessarily just in
13:22.040 --> 13:24.180
the groups that we kind of ended up in and that we formed, but actually
13:24.340 --> 13:27.780
I can remember like conversations between different groups. And like I
13:27.940 --> 13:31.220
remember like contributing something and someone that like I'd literally never spoken to
13:31.300 --> 13:34.020
in the group was like, yeah, I know exactly what that's like. And it was
13:34.100 --> 13:37.520
really affirming to get it even from someone who hasn't just taken 10 minutes to
13:37.680 --> 13:40.960
understand it because I've been saying it. But actually, just like after we did
13:41.040 --> 13:44.320
a quick wrap-up and a summary, for them to go, yeah, actually, like, I relate
13:44.480 --> 13:47.760
to that. That was really, really nice to have it kind of across the
13:47.840 --> 13:50.960
wider group. And it did just kind of follow on between all
13:51.460 --> 13:54.960
the different people that like each group kind of had those similar ways of like
13:55.280 --> 13:58.800
lifting up what others said and then also like taking a step back and being
13:59.300 --> 14:02.480
like, oh yeah, actually, yeah, this wasn't actually like that. But in
14:02.980 --> 14:06.390
my head, I thought it was like that. And I think that it's building empathy
14:06.630 --> 14:10.070
as well, you know, and emotional intelligence and understanding what it's like to sit
14:10.230 --> 14:14.070
in other people's chairs and shoes.
14:14.470 --> 14:17.910
Then that's going back to the scaffolding. So it's important if you're,
14:18.230 --> 14:21.750
from a teaching perspective, you're not just having an open discussion that just goes,
14:21.830 --> 14:24.790
you know, because we find that very interesting, but it doesn't necessarily lead anywhere.
14:25.030 --> 14:27.830
So again, that whole, we use theory, what,
14:27.990 --> 14:31.990
Mezirow's Transformational Learning Theory, for example, which is very much about looking at
14:32.150 --> 14:34.930
different perspectives on an experience.
14:36.290 --> 14:40.450
So we ask the students to sort of scaffold
14:41.170 --> 14:45.250
and lay their experiences within that. So for
14:45.410 --> 14:48.770
example, one is called epistemic meaning perspectives, which is,
14:49.330 --> 14:51.810
okay, where do you get truth and knowledge from?
14:52.850 --> 14:55.570
So if we go back to why did you pick your placement,
14:57.250 --> 15:00.210
was that just a sticky thing in the air? Did you get some real intelligence
15:00.690 --> 15:04.050
on that? Was that because your parents told you to go and do that?
15:04.850 --> 15:08.030
Who is guiding? You looking to at the point of truth?
15:08.190 --> 15:11.790
And when you're on placement, who are the people that you listen to
15:11.870 --> 15:14.910
and go, well, they're a leader, therefore they must be right. They're my manager,
15:14.990 --> 15:18.110
they must be right. I must do everything that they do. Did you find that
15:18.190 --> 15:21.790
with any of your points? Yeah, I think so. I think just like the,
15:22.430 --> 15:25.950
like, that transition element of it. And I think the realisation for me
15:26.110 --> 15:29.950
was that like kind of everything that I'd done before then was then leading into
15:30.450 --> 15:33.800
that one moment, whereas like before it very much felt like Oh, that's like my
15:33.880 --> 15:36.760
third year of university and I'm just going to contain it in that box.
15:37.260 --> 15:38.360
And I think that that was the bit where I was like, oh, actually,
15:39.160 --> 15:42.440
no, I made that decision like based off all the kind of part-time jobs
15:42.760 --> 15:46.040
and education I'd had before then. So it was, yeah,
15:46.680 --> 15:49.480
definitely a bit of a realization. And I thought, oh,
15:50.280 --> 15:53.480
okay, maybe I don't want to do that. And actually I've used this year like
15:53.880 --> 15:56.520
to help me like now understand like, oh, what I do and I don't want
15:57.020 --> 16:00.290
to do rather than just like banking more experience, which I feel like a lot
16:00.790 --> 16:03.410
of people see a placement as just like another thing to kind of add on
16:03.490 --> 16:06.770
to a list. So do you think you look back differently on your
16:06.850 --> 16:10.210
placement now that you've done this module? Yeah, I think if anything I use
16:10.290 --> 16:13.650
it more to look forwards as well, but I think that having that time in
16:13.730 --> 16:17.410
the modules actually sit and think back on it, especially because whilst you're in the
16:17.490 --> 16:21.090
placement, like, you know, you're trying to navigate your way through it, like it's
16:21.590 --> 16:25.410
such a big change, and that there wasn't necessarily like— I had a great kind
16:25.490 --> 16:28.430
of group of like cohort of interns in my little department,
16:28.830 --> 16:31.630
and we were all like friends, so that worked out really nicely. But there are
16:31.790 --> 16:35.070
things that you don't feel like you can speak to them about just because you're
16:35.570 --> 16:38.510
all experiencing it slightly differently. Like, we all had different managers and we're all doing
16:38.670 --> 16:42.510
slightly different roles, so it's not necessarily that everyone was going through
16:42.590 --> 16:46.110
like the exact same job that I was doing, but— and they couldn't understand that.
16:46.190 --> 16:49.070
That's not why I didn't necessarily speak to them about certain things, but also I
16:49.570 --> 16:52.350
don't think that my brain had actually processed it yet. Yeah. And so like actually
16:52.750 --> 16:55.870
taking the time to sit back and go, oh, what did I actually learn over
16:56.030 --> 16:59.210
that year? Like, I'm sure I could say how many clicks an ad got,
16:59.770 --> 17:02.890
which is great, but that's just a number and it doesn't actually really mean anything
17:03.210 --> 17:06.810
at the end of the day, whereas like actually processing the experience and
17:06.890 --> 17:10.330
looking back on that, I feel like it now looks different because
17:10.490 --> 17:13.530
I know how I can use it, and it's those reflections on
17:13.610 --> 17:17.130
like having like a proactive attitude has really changed the way in which like I
17:17.290 --> 17:21.290
applied myself to my final year, like I just took so many other opportunities that
17:21.790 --> 17:24.010
I wouldn't have even have thought to have done in my first and second year,
17:24.270 --> 17:27.470
because I did that placement, but also because I took the time to think about
17:27.550 --> 17:30.910
what I did on that placement and what I'd gained from that. And so I
17:31.410 --> 17:34.830
can't necessarily give all of the credit to the placement because there is
17:34.910 --> 17:38.190
definitely something to be had in taking the time just to sit there and
17:38.690 --> 17:41.870
think about it, because you don't really do that, you know. I mean, for me,
17:42.370 --> 17:45.470
it was like the full 12 months, so I literally had like 2 weeks in
17:45.630 --> 17:48.750
between, like going back to uni and whatever. So yeah, I do look at it
17:48.910 --> 17:52.270
differently, but not necessarily that the experiences have changed, but how can I use
17:52.430 --> 17:56.020
those experiences? That has changed. And certainly again, we've had students,
17:56.100 --> 17:58.340
and I don't know if you might have felt this, all of you, you know,
17:58.420 --> 18:02.660
that you come to university and there's all this stuff you can do and
18:03.160 --> 18:06.420
there's all these things on MyCareer, you know, and you think, oh my God,
18:06.820 --> 18:09.540
what do I— it's not because there's not a lack of stuff for you to
18:09.620 --> 18:12.820
do in terms of experiential learning outside your degree,
18:13.300 --> 18:16.740
but navigating that is quite complex and people just, again, just do stuff
18:16.820 --> 18:19.940
because they think they should. And I think what we try and do
18:20.100 --> 18:24.140
is help people be more sort of discerning
18:24.540 --> 18:28.060
about what I'm going to do my final year now, because of course I've
18:28.140 --> 18:31.340
got all the confidence from my year in industry and that's given me a huge,
18:31.980 --> 18:35.580
you know, head start, but I can still be very discerning about the
18:35.980 --> 18:39.180
opportunities that the university still offers me. So Sarah,
18:40.060 --> 18:43.740
what sort of tools, techniques, skills, and competencies does
18:43.820 --> 18:45.900
this module aim to develop for students?
18:48.290 --> 18:52.770
I think from in terms of skills, a lot of it is recognising and surfacing
18:52.850 --> 18:56.210
the skills that they have gained, not just on placement, but then going back
18:56.530 --> 19:00.130
into sort of previous, you know, the degree for example, and also
19:01.010 --> 19:04.450
going forwards, you know, which skills have
19:04.530 --> 19:08.050
these experiences, one, strengthened, two, shown you
19:08.550 --> 19:11.970
that you really need to work on those, and obviously because it's an employability type
19:12.130 --> 19:15.330
module, which ones are really important going forwards,
19:15.570 --> 19:19.260
and that's where You know, I don't have to tell the
19:19.340 --> 19:23.100
students on that because you've just literally worked for a year. You know what
19:23.340 --> 19:27.020
employers are looking for, so you've got a massive head start on that. But it's
19:27.520 --> 19:30.620
being able to articulate that that is the thing we sort of try and work
19:30.860 --> 19:34.780
on. We look at a
19:34.860 --> 19:38.300
lot of sort of self-reflective tools that,
19:38.540 --> 19:42.060
you know, standard ones like SWOT analysis or Johari
19:42.300 --> 19:45.340
window, where you're really thinking about what other people think of you as well.
19:45.420 --> 19:47.340
A lot of this we try and touch on, it's just about what you think
19:47.420 --> 19:51.420
about yourself, What impression do you think other people have and
19:51.580 --> 19:54.620
why, you know, and how can you manage pressure management,
19:56.460 --> 19:59.500
that as well. And we cover a lot of different topic areas,
20:01.340 --> 20:04.940
you know, we touch on sort of societal theory,
20:05.260 --> 20:09.340
we touch on, you know, leadership, we touch on working
20:09.820 --> 20:13.340
conditions, but we're only doing it at a very superficial surface level
20:13.660 --> 20:18.660
because we have a lot to get through and everyone suddenly
20:18.900 --> 20:22.020
starts reading loads and loads and loads of stuff on different sort of discipline areas.
20:23.540 --> 20:27.540
So it's more about touching on something and then getting students to discuss it
20:27.620 --> 20:30.660
and understand it and apply it in their own context. And I think that's where
20:30.900 --> 20:33.220
again the experiential learning helps because you can hang it on something.
20:34.660 --> 20:38.420
I'm asking you to think about leadership, but I want you to go, who led
20:38.660 --> 20:41.940
me and how was I a follower and when did I lead?
20:42.560 --> 20:46.480
So it's always about applying it. And Isabel, from your experience,
20:46.720 --> 20:50.080
did the module help you conceptualise maybe the skills that you'd learned?
20:50.480 --> 20:53.920
Yeah, I think that, like, that theory that we used, I think maybe even
20:54.000 --> 20:57.040
going back to those expectations that I had, I was maybe expecting it to be
20:57.540 --> 21:01.040
a bit more theory-based and a bit more like a, you know, classic university module.
21:01.360 --> 21:04.640
And I know that obviously in the title it's all about that experiential learning,
21:04.960 --> 21:08.240
but, like, I think I was expecting more of that theory into it. But,
21:08.320 --> 21:12.010
like you were saying, actually just using that as kind of the bed for what
21:12.330 --> 21:15.530
we were actually trying to sow in those points and then taking
21:15.850 --> 21:19.930
more from our actual experiences. Like, even just like having those conversations,
21:20.170 --> 21:23.450
like you say, on a superficial level, that in itself was kind of
21:23.950 --> 21:27.290
a way of like building personal brand because the way in which that we spoke
21:27.530 --> 21:30.650
about our experiences to each other, we were obviously very conscious in the way in
21:31.150 --> 21:34.410
which we were presenting ourselves, even just in the class itself, like let alone actually
21:34.890 --> 21:38.230
when we were going through those experiences. So like that was
21:38.390 --> 21:42.070
even like a nice little like mini tester, I suppose, of like seeing
21:42.230 --> 21:44.790
the way in which people act in those kind of formal conversations.
21:45.430 --> 21:48.550
And like the— you can tell that everyone had learned that kind of
21:48.630 --> 21:52.470
like formal meeting etiquette. And I can remember like someone
21:52.630 --> 21:54.870
would say something, I'd be like, oh, like I need to keep that point and
21:55.030 --> 21:58.310
remember it for when it's most appropriate to say it. But those things,
21:58.550 --> 22:01.990
they do all kind of contribute to that building that like professional
22:02.550 --> 22:05.350
identity that you have. So I felt like it was like, yeah, like a little
22:05.510 --> 22:08.900
mini experiment even within the room itself. Yeah, also with
22:09.060 --> 22:12.980
that, the first assessment that we did again was like,
22:13.140 --> 22:17.060
not only was I talking about like what I've been doing and how that impacted
22:17.540 --> 22:20.900
like the change in my identity from being on placement, but actually doing
22:21.060 --> 22:25.060
that kind of like practice interview style that I was thinking as part
22:25.140 --> 22:28.260
of it, how am I presenting myself like through
22:28.340 --> 22:31.540
the video assessment? Because that was also really different to any kind of assessment that
22:32.040 --> 22:34.990
I've done before, and of course like my course is very much always just writing
22:35.230 --> 22:38.990
an essay, and you're thinking about your writer's voice when you're doing that sometimes,
22:39.070 --> 22:42.030
but often, like, it falls behind all that theory. And that's what I kind of
22:42.190 --> 22:45.550
liked about this module, is that the theory was actually there to help
22:45.710 --> 22:49.230
me think about the personal identity rather than the other way
22:49.390 --> 22:52.990
around. I think that identity usually gets lost in all of the theory. Can I
22:53.150 --> 22:56.430
just pick on that? That's a really— you've given me loads of food for thought
22:56.590 --> 23:00.020
here, and especially that sort of little mini tests in that
23:00.520 --> 23:03.380
you're talking to each other and how you present. That's really interesting. But I think
23:03.460 --> 23:07.380
that idea about, um, it doesn't really matter which,
23:08.340 --> 23:12.580
um, subject area you come from, you can get something from the
23:12.820 --> 23:16.580
material in the, in the assessment, and everyone approaches it very differently. You know,
23:16.740 --> 23:19.540
you, you talked about— it's interesting because obviously you're, you know, from, from an English
23:19.620 --> 23:23.460
background, that you're, you're, you're probably always trying to find your voice through the work
23:23.620 --> 23:27.260
that you do, aren't you? So the ability to be able to give you a
23:27.340 --> 23:30.540
different way of thinking about your voice and what it is, I think,
23:31.040 --> 23:35.180
is quite interesting. And that's an interesting concept as
23:35.260 --> 23:39.340
well for the module, that you've got all these different students coming in who
23:39.420 --> 23:43.580
are bringing— everyone brings something different because they're not just bringing their work experience
23:44.540 --> 23:48.220
and their placement, which is obviously all different, but they're bringing a different
23:48.540 --> 23:52.220
discipline, they're coming from a different part of the country or part of
23:52.720 --> 23:56.170
the world, they've got a different demographic background, backgrounds,
23:56.250 --> 24:00.570
they've got different aspirations, so this is a melting pot of a
24:00.730 --> 24:04.010
classroom where you're
24:04.510 --> 24:07.290
always going to get something from that. But the only way you're ever going to
24:07.790 --> 24:11.130
do that is if you've had an experience, going back to experiential learning.
24:11.450 --> 24:15.530
You're not just talking about theory here, you're applying it to your experience
24:16.170 --> 24:19.850
and your experience is obviously very different. Even if the experience is the same,
24:19.930 --> 24:23.670
your perspective on it is different. That's why it's such a powerful force,
24:24.070 --> 24:28.230
experiential learning, because it allows people to sort
24:28.310 --> 24:30.630
of explore them, explore other people,
24:31.590 --> 24:35.030
and make sense to make things better. I mean, that's ultimately again
24:35.110 --> 24:37.430
leading out to the actions. How am I going to make things better for me
24:37.590 --> 24:41.030
and for other people? And that's what you ultimately want. And Sarah, can you
24:41.110 --> 24:44.750
tell us a little bit about how you assess this module?
24:45.670 --> 24:48.870
There are 2 assessments. The first one is a compare
24:48.950 --> 24:52.450
and contrast. So again, going back, get away
24:52.530 --> 24:56.210
from, this happened to me, so what? It's more about, okay,
24:56.290 --> 24:59.010
that happened to you, but what happened to other people as well?
25:00.290 --> 25:02.450
And what's the difference? What was the similarity?
25:03.810 --> 25:07.250
And what have you learned from that? That compare and contrast is really important and
25:07.750 --> 25:10.130
really powerful, and we do that right at the beginning, so that sets everyone up
25:10.290 --> 25:13.330
talking to each other. We— it used to be a written reflection,
25:14.050 --> 25:16.930
and then we moved it on to just a video reflection, and then this year,
25:17.170 --> 25:20.930
so you were the guinea pig, we moved it on to this interview software platform
25:21.330 --> 25:22.910
called Shortly me that we have at the university.
25:25.230 --> 25:28.510
And the point was, let's get you using it,
25:28.590 --> 25:31.070
you know, because again, it's one of these things that we have, millions of things
25:31.150 --> 25:35.070
we have at the university, and I think hardly anybody in the group had
25:35.470 --> 25:39.310
seen it, done it, used it. And then the second one is the
25:39.390 --> 25:43.390
chunkier one, and that's a reflective report basically, but it's very— everyone
25:43.890 --> 25:46.190
is totally different, obviously, because it's different experiences.
25:47.230 --> 25:51.310
You can really pick the subjects you want to reflect upon and analyse.
25:52.540 --> 25:55.260
And also I think what's interesting for us is the way that we give you
25:55.340 --> 25:58.380
different structures to write it, don't we? I can't remember, which one did you do?
25:58.460 --> 26:01.420
Did you use the story? I did the story in the end, yeah. Because that's
26:01.580 --> 26:04.700
everyone's— I was an English student. There's lots of compare and
26:04.860 --> 26:08.220
contrast still with other people and stuff, but the other structure
26:08.620 --> 26:12.220
we sort of suggest is a story, and it's a story from— you
26:12.720 --> 26:15.500
can start from when you were born, you know, so it's literally a journey of
26:15.580 --> 26:18.060
your life. And most people are like, oh my God, I don't want to do
26:18.560 --> 26:21.700
that, sounds really complicated. But so many people do it now, and I think
26:22.200 --> 26:25.940
they really enjoy that start to finish, and they see the patterns
26:26.500 --> 26:29.540
of what's gone on in their life, and they see what's held them back,
26:29.780 --> 26:33.460
and they see what's really boosted them. And actually, it doesn't matter what the context
26:33.700 --> 26:36.740
is, you know, whether you're coming to university
26:37.140 --> 26:39.940
or whether you're popping out and going to a placement, whether you, you know,
26:40.420 --> 26:44.100
actually the same things are probably holding you back a bit around like a confidence
26:44.500 --> 26:47.980
or self-efficacy or skills. We love We love reading
26:48.300 --> 26:51.100
them, honestly. They're just brilliant to read. They're so interesting,
26:52.620 --> 26:56.540
and you can see people just growing as they write it. And I
26:56.620 --> 27:00.380
still get, you know, emails every year from people going, I just love doing that.
27:00.700 --> 27:04.380
Thank you so much. That was so cathartic, you know, just like, I've never enjoyed
27:04.780 --> 27:07.900
writing something so much. Yeah, and how was your experience of
27:07.980 --> 27:10.780
that, Isabel? Yeah, I mean, I already spoke about the first assessment a bit,
27:10.940 --> 27:14.380
but like, even like you were saying, like, embedding that platform into
27:14.880 --> 27:17.740
the assessments was then great for like around that time. Like, that was when like
27:17.820 --> 27:20.120
all grad schemes were starting to come out come out. So that was something where
27:20.520 --> 27:23.640
I was looking at doing all these like video-style interviews for like
27:23.720 --> 27:27.160
a few roles that I'd applied for, and like I hadn't used it for my
27:27.240 --> 27:29.160
place. I didn't know it was a thing when I was applying for placement,
27:29.720 --> 27:32.360
and I hadn't done loads of interviews up until that point really.
27:33.000 --> 27:36.520
And so having done that, that was first of all like so handy
27:36.760 --> 27:39.320
to know how to navigate and use that kind of platform.
27:39.960 --> 27:43.640
I felt like I already had like that kind of affirming experiential experience of
27:43.720 --> 27:47.400
using that to then kind of lead to some success in actually going through those
27:47.640 --> 27:50.680
interview stages. And then yeah, with the second assessment as well,
27:51.460 --> 27:54.820
Yeah, I did the story and I felt like when I was planning it,
27:54.980 --> 27:57.940
I was fighting between all these different points that I could have picked to use
27:58.440 --> 28:00.340
it. I almost wish that it was longer, but again, I just like writing.
28:01.220 --> 28:05.540
So there were just so many different things I felt fed into that that
28:05.620 --> 28:09.140
were really nice. And I really liked looking back on my school years, I think,
28:09.220 --> 28:12.500
as well. You come to university and a lot of people just feel like life
28:12.740 --> 28:16.180
starts then, and then that's all that kind of really matters within it.
28:16.390 --> 28:19.510
It's, like, great for a time to kind of, you know, the typical, like,
28:19.910 --> 28:23.190
reinvent yourself and everything, but actually, like, so much has happened before then,
28:23.350 --> 28:26.550
and, like, I don't think that I really took loads of time to think about
28:26.790 --> 28:29.830
it, especially when you're in a group with, like, so many people that have come
28:29.910 --> 28:33.030
from so many different areas. You're not really thinking about yourself a lot of the
28:33.110 --> 28:36.790
time because you're absorbing so much, like, different and new information that,
28:36.950 --> 28:40.710
like, that was really nice as well to actually just, like, take the
28:40.790 --> 28:43.300
time to look back and think about me, and I think that, like, I've spoken
28:43.540 --> 28:46.740
about this as well when I've been speaking about my dissertation, is I've
28:47.240 --> 28:51.140
been using that as kind of work to try and implement myself into
28:51.220 --> 28:54.580
my work and use my research as a way to find things about me,
28:55.080 --> 28:58.020
and I think that that's been really nice to do that in the academic side
28:58.100 --> 29:01.860
of my studies, but actually I feel like that kind of motivation
29:02.100 --> 29:05.940
to do that probably started with doing this reflection first, and I was actually like,
29:06.440 --> 29:09.850
oh, this is great, I've always been wanting to find ways to kind of think
29:09.930 --> 29:13.370
about myself, because I'm going through this education for me, you know, I'm doing it
29:13.450 --> 29:16.250
with a massive group of other people, but like I'm doing it for me,
29:16.330 --> 29:20.330
and I think that actually then writing about something that is about me actually
29:20.970 --> 29:24.490
like kind of married the two, kind of like academic experience and
29:24.650 --> 29:28.090
just like your personal life experience together, and I thought like that was a really
29:28.250 --> 29:30.810
nice way to kind of meet those two things in the middle.
29:32.010 --> 29:35.610
And Sarah, looking forward, do you have any future goals
29:35.930 --> 29:38.930
for how this module might develop over the next couple of years?
29:40.690 --> 29:43.970
Well, that point about how many students actually take
29:44.130 --> 29:47.890
the module and how, or, and whether it's, you know, we could develop
29:48.050 --> 29:51.730
an equivalent where you could do it either as it is
29:52.690 --> 29:56.370
or you could have an online version that might be a community that you
29:56.690 --> 30:00.130
interact with online and come together every so often, so that would free
30:00.210 --> 30:03.410
up timetables because that's part of the problem being a discovery module, it's got a
30:03.930 --> 30:07.530
One, some students can't take discovery modules, so even if they wanted to,
30:08.030 --> 30:11.290
they can't. Two, obviously timetabling— if it doesn't fit with their timetable,
30:11.370 --> 30:15.130
they can't take it. So I think it would be great to give
30:15.930 --> 30:19.290
more students an opportunity to explore some of this, even if it's not in so
30:19.790 --> 30:23.610
much depth. We do plan to have a study abroad version.
30:24.110 --> 30:27.610
We're not— we've ignored them for a few, few years, but just to sort of
30:28.250 --> 30:31.680
look at that, because that is a different experience. I mean, there's lots of
30:32.240 --> 30:35.360
parallels, but I think it warrants a different conversation
30:35.680 --> 30:38.960
with them, and particularly around culture shock. I mean, we talk about culture shock in
30:39.040 --> 30:42.480
terms of going into any transition point, coming to university is a
30:42.560 --> 30:46.560
culture shock, but obviously for them particularly there's a different layer
30:46.800 --> 30:50.480
on top of that. But also maybe to build more authentic
30:51.920 --> 30:55.200
teaching experiences in there, like I'd like to run an assessment centre in
30:55.280 --> 30:58.650
the classroom. You know, and that could
30:58.730 --> 31:01.930
lead on to the sort of then interview thing. So there's lots of ways you
31:02.430 --> 31:05.930
could probably build more authentic stuff into it as well. And Isabel, what are some
31:06.430 --> 31:08.650
of the things that you'll take away from this module, and is there anything that
31:08.730 --> 31:12.010
maybe you'd want to implement in your personal and professional life from the module?
31:12.570 --> 31:15.450
Yeah, I think that like one of the things that I've actually like already done,
31:15.530 --> 31:19.130
like I got a mentor like through this year that was also something
31:19.630 --> 31:22.330
that I found through the Careers Service, obviously just looking at all of what they
31:22.410 --> 31:25.570
had to offer this year. And so like we've been planning
31:25.730 --> 31:28.290
a few sessions and one of the things that came up in the module was
31:28.530 --> 31:31.170
doing that personal SWOT, and then we flipped it around and she was like,
31:31.670 --> 31:34.290
well, actually, I don't necessarily agree with what you've put in that box. And so
31:34.370 --> 31:38.130
that was really cool to then have someone else feed that back to me.
31:38.210 --> 31:41.330
So that was one thing that, again, I did in my free time anyway,
31:41.890 --> 31:45.330
and I'd love to kind of come back to that in a few years' time,
31:46.130 --> 31:48.450
down the line, once I've kind of moved into a grad role and everything,
31:48.770 --> 31:52.040
of how has that changed. So even just like those little tools
31:52.280 --> 31:55.640
where it's like the theory-based things where it's not necessarily the
31:56.140 --> 31:59.560
most important part of the module, but it is that springboard for like continuing that
31:59.720 --> 32:03.480
like reflective behaviour. And like, that is definitely something that I want to keep
32:03.560 --> 32:07.400
doing. And Sarah, finally, do you have any advice for
32:07.560 --> 32:11.080
either staff or students who are looking to get involved with
32:11.160 --> 32:13.600
this sort of experiential learning?
32:15.160 --> 32:18.840
I think from a staff perspective, and it can be any topic,
32:19.160 --> 32:22.600
any discipline, it doesn't, you know, we're talking about a year in industry, you know,
32:23.640 --> 32:27.280
related modules, so that's sort of quite obvious and tangible.
32:27.880 --> 32:31.800
But you can bring in a student's experience
32:32.280 --> 32:36.200
and apply whatever you're teaching to their experience and
32:36.360 --> 32:39.880
get them to start reflecting on how that maybe has
32:40.120 --> 32:43.640
impacted their lives or other people's lives. So I think even at the very,
32:43.800 --> 32:47.220
very base level, The ability to get students talking to
32:47.720 --> 32:51.140
each other about their experiences is experiential learning
32:52.020 --> 32:56.140
and it's reflection. In terms of linking that to assessments,
32:56.980 --> 33:00.020
you, yes, have essays and yes,
33:00.180 --> 33:04.260
have exams and there's a place for those, but then equally there
33:04.760 --> 33:07.860
are so many different ways that students can express their knowledge and
33:07.940 --> 33:11.970
their understanding and show and demonstrate their skills. And giving
33:12.210 --> 33:15.650
them the choice as well. So I think for staff it's sort of,
33:16.150 --> 33:19.330
you can start really small, but it's bringing those
33:19.490 --> 33:22.930
voices together and trusting your students. And actually the best people to
33:23.890 --> 33:27.890
develop learning in the classroom are the students themselves. You know, standing up and
33:28.050 --> 33:31.330
starting a conversation is one thing, but then letting them go and run with that
33:31.810 --> 33:34.850
I think is really important. And from a student's point of view,
33:35.350 --> 33:38.450
I think it's interesting what you said, that you went away and did something off
33:38.950 --> 33:42.360
your own. That's obviously brilliant. I think it's taking that
33:42.680 --> 33:46.120
responsibility. You know, it's your life, it's your career, it's your, you know,
33:46.280 --> 33:49.400
whatever, and we can just set you up with stuff, but at the
33:49.900 --> 33:53.480
end of the day, go off and try things, go off and think
33:53.720 --> 33:56.200
about what you're good at and what you're not, and go and find— be that
33:56.440 --> 33:59.720
informed decision-making really again, is be proactive, because no one
34:00.220 --> 34:03.720
else is going to do it for you, unfortunately. And particularly maybe if
34:04.220 --> 34:08.560
you're in a programme where you don't get that sort of module or conversation,
34:10.160 --> 34:14.000
just go off and find it yourself. There are loads of people to help
34:14.160 --> 34:17.600
you here, you know, and that's not just Career Services, it's your
34:17.680 --> 34:20.960
academic personal tutors, it's staff at the libraries, it's staff in
34:21.120 --> 34:24.480
Helix. There's people here whose job is to help you,
34:26.560 --> 34:30.480
so just reach out. Yeah, I think anything that's
34:30.980 --> 34:34.249
got experiential learning in it as an option, go and take it, even if it
34:34.749 --> 34:37.449
looks a bit scary, because that's where you learn the most, isn't it, when you're
34:37.609 --> 34:40.889
stepping into the sort of scary zone. Amazing. All right,
34:40.969 --> 34:43.529
well, thank you both very much for being on the podcast. It's been great to
34:43.609 --> 34:47.049
have you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed it.
34:47.289 --> 34:51.129
Thanks for listening to our conversation with Sarah and Isabel, where we discussed the
34:51.289 --> 34:55.289
importance of reflection, peer conversation, and experiential pedagogies
34:55.449 --> 34:58.870
to get the most out of your placement year. Thanks, and see you next time!