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Welcome back to season four of the battle.
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My name is Matthews at home, and this season, Jen Telly, and I are going to the movies as we try to find out the winner of the music biopic battle.
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Each round will cover a different set of criteria, so the deeper the movie goes in the tournament, the more you learn about it.
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For round one, the focus will be on historical accuracy and the lead performance.
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We've got four divisions, the all-women division, gone too soon, groups or bands, and then drugs.
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We'll publish a mixtape with every episode, but you can make your own mixtapes at my.superawesomix.com.
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It's free and you could share it on any major music streaming service.
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This week we moved to the Groups or Bands division with a battle between the Doors and Sid and Nancy.
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I'll kick us off this week with The Doors, which came out in 1991 and stars Valmer as Jim Borison, and it's directed by Oliver Stone.
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Um, this is an Oliver Stone movie.
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So if you've ever seen an Oliver Stone movie, it very much follows that kind of um well, I mean, we talked earlier in the season about Baz Lerman, and it's like this is a Baz Lerman movie, so get ready for a Baz Lerman movie, and that's kind of what this is.
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It's like it's it's an Oliver Stone movie, so it's it's a little stylized and um kind of just I don't know, like it's out there.
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You know what?
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I'm here for an Oliver Stone movie, so we can talk all day.
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I'm like, yes, it's rough.
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Yes, you're gonna get some F bombs, you know, you're gonna get some weird stylized shooting.
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If it's an Oliver Stone movie, you're also probably gonna get a great soundtrack.
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I'll say that.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, you're right.
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This this movie is all um all Oliver Stone, maybe one of my favorites of his.
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And I mean, Val Kilmer, again, sometimes, like we said, uh, it's hard for me to filter out what I think of the person versus what I think of the performance, or like we are talking about what I think of the m, you know, the the music or the band versus the movie, like all of those things influence.
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And I don't have a lot of nice things to say about Val Kilmer either.
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When, you know, he was he caused me some headaches, but um I would now just for the people out there, Jen.
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You used to work in uh the film industry.
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I did.
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So you're talking about personal experiences of Valkyrie.
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I'm talking about a professional relationship where yes, I was working with him on a film at DreamWorks, and he was cantankerous.
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How about that?
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That's a great word.
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Everybody go out there, look that one up, okay?
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He was Honri, as we say here in Texas.
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He was pretty honri.
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Um it was not a good time in in Mr.
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Kilmer's life, and um, yeah, he he was not a great person, that particular press junket, but bygones.
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This was after this film, and this film was actually one of my favorites.
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I actually had a doors poster from this movie, not the band, but from this movie hanging in my high school bedroom.
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Yeah, I loved this movie so much, and I thought Val Kilmer's performance was insane.
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I mean, it I like everybody says it it even like altered his personality, right?
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Like for years, kind of the same way everybody was teasing or giving giving Austin Butler a hard time about not dropping the accent, right, after he did Elvis.
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Because he lived with that character for so long.
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Val Kilmer was a lot like that.
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He really adopted the Jim Morrison lifestyle and je ne sais quoi, and and it really stuck with him for a long time.
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Yeah, and this movie starts with the doors kind of coming together and and sort of being discovered and then starting to become famous and then obviously becoming mega famous and just sort of, you know, the focus is squarely on Jim Morrison.
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Um, as it was with the anyone who thinks of the doors thinks immediately of Jim Morrison.
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Now they've got some great musicians in that band, right?
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Like, so that's not a knock on them, but he is very much synonymous with the band.
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And um the movie definitely focuses on that and his rise and sort of the um erratic behavior that that came out of that as he became more famous, and then um ultimately his death uh you know later.
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But I mean, all of that happened in about a 10-year time span.
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Like he died when he was what, 27?
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Yeah, right?
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That curse number in rock and roll.
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So I mean they they start you start off and and he's he's young, but I mean he's young when he passes away.
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So it's like it seems like, man, this is a compressed timeline, but but it's really not in this movie.
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Yeah, and I think that they try and do I think Oliver Stone also tries to help explain a little bit of Jim's erratic behavior and kind of why he was the way he was, whether it's the you know, that kind of opening, that eerie opening scene when he's a kid and they, you know, they they come up on the car accident.
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Um, you know, I I think there are a lot of things that um that sort of try and explain away, or this movie is supposed to be kind of an inside look at why Jim Morrison was the way he was, and I think Oliver Stone wants us to leave feeling like he was kind of this torture genius, you know, um type guy.
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Um and I think that that comes across in the film.
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I really do.
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I think that um I think it's a good retelling of of yes, the doors, but like you said, the the the star or the mystique of the doors, I think really comes from Jim Morrison.
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Now, Jen, talk to us a little bit about Sid and Nancy, because I think people might not be as familiar with this film.
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Whoo! Well, this is not an Oliver Stone movie, and maybe a harder watch than an Oliver Stone movie.
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You know, this is I think this is probably the toughest watch in the list, actually.
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Um, you know, there are a few movies that I I consider excellent films that I'll never watch again, right?
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Um and Sid and Nancy is is kind of like that.
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I mean, this was um on the like being perfectly honest, re-watching it for the show was only the second time I've ever seen it, and now I remember why.
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You know, it's it's like I loved train spotting and I thought it was a great film.
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I'll never watch it again.
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I, you know, Requiem for a Dream, same thing.
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Like superb filmmaking, I will never watch it again.
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Like I it's just too intense, it's too gritty, it's too dirty, the subject matter's too rough.
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And so that's what you get with Sid and Nancy.
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Sid and Nancy is obviously um it's and this one's interesting too because it's about Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungon, his girlfriend, um, and they were a famous, you know, couple on the punk rock scene.
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Um, but you don't get a whole lot of the sex pistols in this, right?
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So if if we're doing a biopic story, um, this really focuses a lot on sort of the demise of the sex pistols due to Sid Vicious' incredibly tragic heroin addiction, um, and then kind of him branching off into his solo career very briefly.
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Um, and so this really it's a hard one to categorize, especially in a biopic um conversation, because although you know Johnny Rotten features pretty prominently the other two band members, you see them, but not so much.
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It really does center on.
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But but again, you know, when you think about the Sex Pistols, I think you think of Sid Vicious, maybe even before Johnny Rotten.
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Yeah, I mean, I hate to say that.
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John Linden's freaking out somewhere, but um, you know, like I I think that he was such a character, and yes, this relationship with Nancy because she was also such a character, um, and and just a disturbed person.
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I I, you know, I think that that's something that you don't get as much in the movie as I wish they would have shown that these people were disturbed for reasons, you know.
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I it wasn't just like, oh, we want to go out and we're so punk rock and we're gonna do all these drugs and you know ruin our lives.
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Like I they they had there were things that occurred to them that caused them to be this way.
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And the movie doesn't really focus on any of that.
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It really is just kind of to me like a cautionary tale of what two mentally ill, codependent, heroin-addicted people looks like.
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And so that's kind of what you get in Sid and Nancy.
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You get, you know, sort of just the fun.
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It's I mean, for a brief moment in the the opening scenes of the movie, you kind of get that punk rock spirit, you know, that you you see Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten running around London just causing havoc.
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And then as soon as Nancy comes into the picture, things kind of just go downhill quickly.
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But I will say you do get such um like a it feels gritty and dirty and you feel like you're there.
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Like that's probably why it was so uncomfortable to watch.
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Yeah, and the structure of the film is interesting because even before those scenes where Sid and Johnny are kind of running around London, you you you start at the end and then they go backwards in time, right?
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So it is a little, you know, to your point about being a hard watch, it's it's almost disorienting, right?
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Because you start off and if you're not familiar with the story, you're just like, what is going on?
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Like, you know, what like why are we starting here?
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And then you go back and you're not even sure it's a different time.
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You're just like, is this a different?
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So it does take you a second to get you know the timeline figured out, and then um, you know, off we go.
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But you're right, it is just they do a good job in this film of just showing how how bad things can get when it comes to heroin addiction and you know, all the all that comes with that, really, really any addiction, but in this film specifically heroin addiction.
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And this was the first time I remember seeing that portrayed in such a graphic way, right?
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You know, those other movies that I called out came out a lot later, um, you know, a lot later than this film.
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And so this was one of the first ones that I watched.
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I will say going back and watching it, and that was probably, oh my gosh, I was probably in high school when I first saw Sid and Nancy.
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So I probably saw it in the early 90s the first time.
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Um and now this came out in 1986.
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86 is when this came out.
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Yeah.
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So and the doors in 91.
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Um, so I I think that I was probably in high school, you know, with friends, we were having a Sex Pistols phase and decided to watch the movie.
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But watching it again, I will say it was kind of fun for some of the I mean, Easter eggs is the wrong word.
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Um, but like, you know, they have a character in Sid and Nancy called Rockhead.
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Um, and now as a grown-up person, he's a he's apparently like an older musician, but the Sex Pistols respect him, but he's not really so hardcore anymore.
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And Nancy knows him and he gave her some bad drugs once, and blah, blah, blah.
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And like now, as a grown-up, I'm like, oh, that's Iggy Pop, right?
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Like that character is supposed to be Iggy Pop.
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But I, you know, as a young high schooler, I wasn't able to put that together.
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And so, and if you don't know any of you know anything about the lore of the Hotel Chelsea and, you know, what that scene was like, like I think it's a different watch now, understanding some of the things a little bit better, and and like I said, being able to pick up on some of those, I don't like Easter egg is the wrong word, but just understanding time and place a little deeper.
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So I will say that about it.
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It it was that was that was the the one bright bright ray of sunshine in this very dark film, you know, was kind of getting to like, oh, I didn't catch that the first time, you know, like things clicked a little more.
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All right, well, let's get into our criteria for round one, talking about historical accuracy.
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Um, well, going back to the doors, I mean, look, it's an Oliver Stone film, so things are gonna be a little overly uh dramatized, if you will.
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And um, yeah, but I mean there are certain scenes, like I mean, the scene in the desert where they all do peyote, apparently that that never happened by all accounts.
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There's a there's a scene at like a Thanksgiving dinner where it gets out of hand, apparently that never happened.
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Um and and just generally, I think the surviving bandmates thought the movie made Jim Morrison just look so much meaner than he actually was, right?
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Like, I mean, this really is I I know you said earlier it kind of was meant to show how Jim Morrison kind of came to be who he was, but it also like it's just one thing after an I don't think it makes him look likable, I guess, at the end of it.
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And maybe he wasn't, but I I guess like watching it, it does kind of hit upon that, in my opinion.
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Yeah, I I think you're right, and I think we'll probably get into this deeper as we, you know, as we go down this list of movies and as films continue to advance.
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But there's I think one thing I've learned from me watching all these movies is there's a real fine line between crazy and genius, right?
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Like or mentally ill and genius.
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Like sometimes they go hand in hand, and I think that's what stood out in sort of this rewatch of the doors is that yeah, he's a he's a pretty disturbed guy at times, due heavily to his alcohol addiction um and you know, drug use, but he was also a poet and an artist, and I think that's kind of that gets a little bit lost because he just looks like such a mess, you know.
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And so I think um I think that's kind of my one like dig on the doors, re-watching it as an adult and and not like trying to separate myself from being so mesmerized by Val Kilmer's performance and just thinking about like the human Jim Morrison.
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Um yeah, I I think it does make him look a little bit like a caricature, you know.
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Yeah, yeah, almost like a it's like a wrestling portrayal, you know, professional wrestling where you kind of you know make one aspect of your personality super big.
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It's almost like it almost did that a little bit where you couldn't quite figure out, you know, at a certain point it's like, how did this band not break up every week, right?
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If this is really how he's treating people, and turns out if you if you hear the bandmates talk about this movie, it's like he wasn't like that all the time.
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Like this wasn't just a constant barrage of of sort of aggressiveness.
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Um, you're right.
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He he did have this side to him where he was, you know, introspective and and poetic and all this.
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And I mean he wrote a lot of these songs, but you just didn't get a lot of that outside of maybe the opening scenes.
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It's almost like once he became famous, it's like, all right, forget all that.
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You know, I'm a rock star now.
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Yeah, totally.
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And you get some of that like in some of those weird like interview scenes, you know, where he's lying about his parents being dead, and you know, things like that where you're just like, oh, okay, like he's kind of a disturbed person, or he's leaned in hard on this, you know, I'm a genius, nobody understands me, you know, I'm just gonna go be my own person, kind of thing.
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Like, and what you hear is that he wasn't really like that isolated and he wasn't that arrogant, you know.
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Like he he he was gifted as a poet and an artist, but he was not, you know I think I think you said it best.
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Like it's a simple word, but I don't think he was as mean as they portray him to be.
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And and you know, and and I think people are selfish when they're in the throes of addiction, right?
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Because the addiction is never one.
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So I'm sure that was probably pretty accurate, but I don't think that he was uh yeah, that he was as as terrible.
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And by all the the surviving band member accounts, like he was definitely not as terrible as he's portrayed in this.
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All right, Jen, let's talk about historical accuracy with Sid and Nancy.
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Okay, so Sid and Nancy is not we're we're not gonna get a lot of points for historical accuracy in this one.
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Um what we will get points for though is like, you know, the the ambiance and I think just like we said, the brutal, ugly, harsh truth about what really horribly addicted people who are just spiraling out of control together can look like.
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Um and so I think that's really what you get.
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But if you're looking at like, I want to learn about the Sex Pistols, I want to know, you know, what they're what they were like as punk ro punk rock pioneers, this is not the film for you.
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Right.
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You're not really gonna get any of that.
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Um you're gonna get the demise of the band.
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Um, you don't even get a whole lot of um like performance scenes.
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You get some, um, but you don't get a a ton of of even seeing them live.
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Like you get a a little bit of them, you know, in the clubs with people throwing bottles and you know, gross things, you know, but uh there's there's not even like a big well, like I was gonna say there's not a big performance moment, but you do get a really cool moment when Sid Vicious is um recording his version of of the Frank Sinatra classic My Way, which was kind of the big, you know, Sid Vicious solo hit.
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Um so you do kind of get a cool moment there.
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Um, but you know, there's not a lot.
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This is not gonna, this is not gonna be a a primer on the sex pistols, if that's what you're looking for.
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Right.
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But I do think, you know, to your point earlier about kind of the reference to Iggy Pop and the Chelsea Hotel.
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I do think if you're sort of if you come across this movie and you're kind of curious about some of the stuff, I do think there's enough references in here to get you started down a rabbit hole of like, what was that about?
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Oh, what was this about?
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And you can kind of use it to branch out and learn what actually happened.
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Well, I that's a that's a that's a good way to phrase it, yes.
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Yeah.
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And and it gives you just kind of the sense of like you, like you said, the the the ambiance and sort of the the style of it is pretty accurate.
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It's more just the details and timeline piece that they sort of fudge around with um in this movie.
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And clearly the focus is on Sid and his relationship with Nancy, right?
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Like it's right there in the title.
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So it's there in the title.
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It's not called, you know, the Sex Pistols biography or the story of the Sex Pistols, right?
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So I think that you also have to know what you're going in for.
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But I think that's a great way to look at it.
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Like, yes, if you are curious and you want to sort of jump in the rabbit hole, um, this is a good, this is a good way to do that.
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As long as the rabbit hole you're jumping into is not heroin.
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Like, well, let me let's say that.
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Like stay away from that heroin.
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Stay away from that.
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Um that's no good.
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That's our PSA for this week.
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Yeah, don't do that.
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But yeah, and I think for people out there wondering why this movie was made, um, you know, I don't think it's a spoiler alert, 40 years after the fact, but you know, there's an accidental stabbing where Sid Vicious stabs Nancy, and and that's when she ultimately passes away.
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And I think that was the genesis of this movie.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:19:02.960
It was just sort of highlighting this relationship because some people at the time thought this was a premeditated murder, and and there was a lot of things surrounding like, how did this happen?
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:10.240
And so that was really the focus of the movie is showing their relationship and then her ultimate death.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:17.039
Um, and then we get that weird scene at the end, which is almost like you know, the ending of Greece or something where they get in the car and drive.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:17.440
Yep.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:18.079
Like I don't know.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:35.680
I wrote the same note why they went that that direction there at the end, but but yeah, like that's that's why it was made because I know we've kind of talked about how it's not really focused on the sex pistols, you know, Sid Vicious didn't have this, you know, long and storied solo career, although he was very famous.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:40.799
Um it it is the accidental murder that I think ended up being the genesis for this movie.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:59.599
Yeah, and then you know, his death shortly after, again, not a spoiler alert because it's been 40 years since all this happened, but yeah, like he sh sh he you know the the story goes, and you see the retelling in the film that you know she often asked him, I think there are two or three scenes in the movie where she's like, if I ever asked you to kill me, would you?
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:06.799
Um, and so the you know, the scene in the movie is that she's like begging him to please like she cannot wake up another day in this life.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:20.079
You know, they've been trapped in room 100 at the Hotel Chelsea, which is you know a famous room, um, where people knew like drug dealers and druggies hung out, and so they were really living this horrible existence there.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:32.400
Um whenever Sid Vicious stabbed Nancy, and then he never even went to trial because before he spent some time in jail, he was out on bail, and while he was out on bail, um he he died of a heroin overdose.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.039
And so I think that's what that final ending scene is.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.279
Listeners, I'll be really curious to hear what your thoughts are about that ending.
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.079
Um it is, it's a really interesting style choice.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:49.279
You know, he's going to the, I'm air-quoting, the pizza place, the pizza shack in the middle of nowhere.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.240
So yeah, you see this very weird scene where he's like indulging in pizza.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:59.519
Um, and you're like, wait, why is there, why is he there wouldn't be a pizza place there in a little bitty shack?
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.640
And, you know, it's very it is a very strange, interesting thing.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.799
And then he steps outside and there are some kids listening to disco music, and they ask him to dance with them.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:17.279
It was actually probably one of my most favorite moments of the movie, even though it is a very strange choice for an ending.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:23.039
Um, and then yeah, they they go off together in a limo, you know, this limo randomly pulls up.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:28.640
Nancy's inside wearing a wedding dress and off they drive, just like you know, in Greece when they fly into the sky.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.160
Like it's all this is how we're ending this.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:33.119
This is how we're doing it.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.119
And credits, yeah.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:36.400
Um, all right.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.279
Well, we've touched on this already with both of these films, but let's talk about the lead performance.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.279
And I mean, with the doors, Val Kilmer, just incredible.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.160
I mean, really embodies Jim Morrison.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:59.359
He learned to sing about fifty of their songs or so, and I mean, just the way he sounded, the way he moved, even the surviving band bandmates were like blown away.
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.079
But By how much he embodied Jim Morrison.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.160
So um can't say enough about the lead performance in that movie.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:12.960
And I think this one is probably second only to Selena in terms of like physical similarities, right?
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:13.440
Yes.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.039
And it might be like they might be tied up for me, honestly.
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.720
Like Val Kilmer resembled the real Jim Morrison so much.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:28.880
You get it in that famous photo shoot scene, you know, the the shirtless leather pants with Jim Morrison, like um against the Stark background.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:34.559
Like everybody knows that photo and seeing that recreated, it it is really hard to tell like which is which.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.839
And so I give high, high marks to Val Kilmer um for his performance as Jim Morrison.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.680
And you know, the supporting cast here is good too.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.000
Like I said, if this one advances, we'll get into that.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.920
But um Kyle McLaughlin does a great Rayman Zeric in this.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.200
Um, I think that there are some other really great performances.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.839
You know, this is an interesting role for Meg Ryan, is the female lead and Jim Morris's girlfriend, Pamela Corson.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:03.200
Um, you know, she's so cute and sweet that it's almost hard to take.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:09.119
Like, I I remember like having rom-com Meg Ryan in my head, you know, while I'm watching this.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:21.119
And I was trying to go back and think, you know, whenever the movie came out in '91, she would she'd she'd done enough things that people kind of associated her with that bubbly personality at that point, I think.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:25.599
Um so it but now, I mean, her whole catalog is that.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:32.079
And so it was interesting going back this many years later and and re-watching Meg Ryan in this role.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.359
Yeah, definitely an outlier for her career.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.240
But we can talk about that if if the movie advances.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.880
So uh, Jen, talk about Gary Oldman's performance in Sid and Nancy.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:44.960
Uh to me, spectacular.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:45.839
Same thing.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:51.920
Like he does do um, he does do some singing, no one in the cast, lip synced.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:52.960
Um, they had a ton.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.920
This was another one where they had a ton of legal restrictions.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:07.680
And so another contr another contributing factor to why the movie's not super historically accurate or or all about the sex pistols, I should, you know, say that it wasn't just the director's choice.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.640
There were a ton of legal battles and lots of things wrapped up um in court whenever this movie was made.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.440
But I think Gary Oldman's fantastic in this.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.960
I think he looks like Sid Vicious, I think he acts like Sid Vicious.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.119
I think you see a character arc.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:30.319
I think we get him, you know, when he's just kind of a rowdy punk all the way to this just terrible mess of a junkie.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.359
Um and Gary Oldman carries it all the way through.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:34.960
I think that this movie is long.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.160
I think it's like 30 minutes too long, honestly.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:43.519
Like I think they could have cut half an hour out of this film and we still would have gotten the same thing.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.319
But uh Gary Oldman commands the stage for me.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:56.559
Now, Chloe Webb as Nancy is a tough watch, but by all accounts, everybody says that, you know, Nancy was pretty insufferable, insufferable.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.519
Like she had this really harsh New York accent.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:02.559
She had a her voice was really pitchy and screechy.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.400
Like you hear that a lot in accounts.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:11.680
And so I think Chloe Webb probably captured her pretty accurately, but um she was pretty insufferable.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.519
Like, I never need to hear anybody scream ever again.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:24.960
Like, I feel like I've I you hear it so many times in the movie, her screeching his name that it's like it starts to get grating.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.000
But you know, in her defense, Nancy's mom went on the record, she hated this movie.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.279
Um, she thought it was a terrible portrayal of her daughter.
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.920
Um, and and she shared too that her daughter had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at 15.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:47.119
So you get this picture of this woman that's just kind of like drug addicted and grating, but you don't really get the backstory that she's also deeply, deeply mentally ill.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:48.720
Right and unmedicated.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.039
And unmedicated except for the heroine.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:01.200
Um the booze and you know, the dru the other drugs that they're that are around in the you know late 70s, early 80s punk rock scene.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.240
So yeah, I think that Gary Oldman is fantastic.
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:10.240
This is uh an amazing performance turned in from him, um, especially given that he did his own singing.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.799
You know, I mean it's not it's not super melodic.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.440
We're not talking about the Freddie Mercury for Octave Range here for what they did.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.160
Um but it it's also famous that Gary Oldman hates this movie.
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:30.559
He hates this performance, and he says that anytime it's on, if he's flipping channels and he sees it, he has to look away because he's so ashamed of this performance.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.400
I know, shocking, right?
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:45.839
Well, because I think his performance, uh as well as Chloe Webb, is what makes it such a hard watch because they do seem so just so out there that it's like, oh my god, these people, like just the self-destruction.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.039
I mean, it's just very it's very difficult to watch, but I agree with you.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:55.920
I mean, he does he does an amazing job and and just the way he looks, like you know, physically, all of that.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:58.480
I mean, he really he really committed to the role here.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.880
Yeah, and shout out to costumes and makeup.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:13.920
Like the makeup artist in this film does such a good job of making them just look sick and sores and bruises, and they definitely this is not a glamorous portrayal.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.440
No, not at all.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.160
Not at all.
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.200
All right, Jen.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.759
So neither one scores high in historical accuracy.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:22.079
We've got two great lead performances.
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:23.359
So what do you think?
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
Uh which one of these films will advance?
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:27.279
I mean, this one's kind of easy for me.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.440
Like uh for me, it's the doors.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.119
Uh, you know, I think that it's uh Oliver Stone is an incredible filmmaker.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.200
He's one of the best of our time, I think.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.640
Um controversial, yes, but I think such a visionary.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.519
Um and Sid and Nancy is not a bad movie.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.359
I I don't want to discourage listeners from going out and checking it out.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:46.720
It's just a hard watch.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:56.319
You know, the the drug use and the abuse is brutal in in both of these films, but Sid and Nancy takes it to, again, like a train spotting requiem for a dream type level.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.160
So um I I think that that both films are good, but for me, this is this is kind of an easy battle.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.000
I I think the doors has it.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:12.160
Yeah, I I think the doors are the is the one to advance just because you know this is kind of an apex moment for Val Kilmer, right?
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.480
Like this was the him at the top of his game.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:14.799
Yep.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.079
And like you just said, Gary Oldman doesn't even like this performance.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:25.119
And I think we've probably seen better Gary Oldman, not because this is a bad performance, but because he's such an incredible actor.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.680
He's done so many great movies since then.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.200
So I would agree.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:36.000
I think the Doors advances and moves on to the finals of the groups or bands division.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:44.240
So next week we'll be back with the other matchup in this bracket, which is straight out of Compton versus Love and Mercy.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:51.119
So, like I said, we'll put out a mixtape with every one of these episodes, but you can make your own at my dotsuperaw mix dot com.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.279
We'll be back next week with another episode of the battle.
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.680
So for Jen, this is Matt, and we'll see you then.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:12.880
Welcome back to season four of the battle.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:21.039
My name is Matthews at home, and this season, Jen Telly, and I are going to the movies as we try to find out the winner of the music biopic battle.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:26.960
Each round will cover a different set of criteria, so the deeper the movie goes in the tournament, the more you learn about it.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.280
For round one, the focus will be on historical accuracy and the lead performance.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:37.359
We've got four divisions, the all-women division, gone too soon, groups or bands, and then drugs.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.439
We'll publish a mixtape with every episode, but you can make your own mixtapes at my.superawesomix.com.
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:47.039
It's free and you could share it on any major music streaming service.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:55.119
This week we moved to the Groups or Bands division with a battle between the Doors and Sid and Nancy.
00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:06.560
I'll kick us off this week with The Doors, which came out in 1991 and stars Valmer as Jim Borison, and it's directed by Oliver Stone.
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.359
Um, this is an Oliver Stone movie.
00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:24.799
So if you've ever seen an Oliver Stone movie, it very much follows that kind of um well, I mean, we talked earlier in the season about Baz Lerman, and it's like this is a Baz Lerman movie, so get ready for a Baz Lerman movie, and that's kind of what this is.
00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:34.799
It's like it's it's an Oliver Stone movie, so it's it's a little stylized and um kind of just I don't know, like it's out there.
00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:36.319
You know what?
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:40.640
I'm here for an Oliver Stone movie, so we can talk all day.
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.319
I'm like, yes, it's rough.
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:47.680
Yes, you're gonna get some F bombs, you know, you're gonna get some weird stylized shooting.
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.519
If it's an Oliver Stone movie, you're also probably gonna get a great soundtrack.
00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:52.560
I'll say that.
00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:53.280
Yeah.
00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:54.640
So yeah, you're right.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:59.599
This this movie is all um all Oliver Stone, maybe one of my favorites of his.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:16.479
And I mean, Val Kilmer, again, sometimes, like we said, uh, it's hard for me to filter out what I think of the person versus what I think of the performance, or like we are talking about what I think of the m, you know, the the music or the band versus the movie, like all of those things influence.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:20.319
And I don't have a lot of nice things to say about Val Kilmer either.
00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:26.960
When, you know, he was he caused me some headaches, but um I would now just for the people out there, Jen.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.639
You used to work in uh the film industry.
00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:31.360
I did.
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.240
So you're talking about personal experiences of Valkyrie.
00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:44.719
I'm talking about a professional relationship where yes, I was working with him on a film at DreamWorks, and he was cantankerous.
00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:45.439
How about that?
00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:46.639
That's a great word.
00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:49.439
Everybody go out there, look that one up, okay?
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.360
He was Honri, as we say here in Texas.
00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:54.639
He was pretty honri.
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:57.520
Um it was not a good time in in Mr.
00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:05.759
Kilmer's life, and um, yeah, he he was not a great person, that particular press junket, but bygones.
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:10.319
This was after this film, and this film was actually one of my favorites.
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:16.960
I actually had a doors poster from this movie, not the band, but from this movie hanging in my high school bedroom.
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.520
Yeah, I loved this movie so much, and I thought Val Kilmer's performance was insane.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.599
I mean, it I like everybody says it it even like altered his personality, right?
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:33.599
Like for years, kind of the same way everybody was teasing or giving giving Austin Butler a hard time about not dropping the accent, right, after he did Elvis.
00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:35.919
Because he lived with that character for so long.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.680
Val Kilmer was a lot like that.
00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:45.599
He really adopted the Jim Morrison lifestyle and je ne sais quoi, and and it really stuck with him for a long time.
00:03:46.080 --> 00:04:02.319
Yeah, and this movie starts with the doors kind of coming together and and sort of being discovered and then starting to become famous and then obviously becoming mega famous and just sort of, you know, the focus is squarely on Jim Morrison.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.960
Um, as it was with the anyone who thinks of the doors thinks immediately of Jim Morrison.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.919
Now they've got some great musicians in that band, right?
00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.719
Like, so that's not a knock on them, but he is very much synonymous with the band.
00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:30.000
And um the movie definitely focuses on that and his rise and sort of the um erratic behavior that that came out of that as he became more famous, and then um ultimately his death uh you know later.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.360
But I mean, all of that happened in about a 10-year time span.
00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:35.199
Like he died when he was what, 27?
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:35.839
Yeah, right?
00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:37.759
That curse number in rock and roll.
00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:47.920
So I mean they they start you start off and and he's he's young, but I mean he's young when he passes away.
00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:53.680
So it's like it seems like, man, this is a compressed timeline, but but it's really not in this movie.
00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:11.920
Yeah, and I think that they try and do I think Oliver Stone also tries to help explain a little bit of Jim's erratic behavior and kind of why he was the way he was, whether it's the you know, that kind of opening, that eerie opening scene when he's a kid and they, you know, they they come up on the car accident.
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:29.439
Um, you know, I I think there are a lot of things that um that sort of try and explain away, or this movie is supposed to be kind of an inside look at why Jim Morrison was the way he was, and I think Oliver Stone wants us to leave feeling like he was kind of this torture genius, you know, um type guy.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:32.160
Um and I think that that comes across in the film.
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:32.879
I really do.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:44.000
I think that um I think it's a good retelling of of yes, the doors, but like you said, the the the star or the mystique of the doors, I think really comes from Jim Morrison.
00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:49.920
Now, Jen, talk to us a little bit about Sid and Nancy, because I think people might not be as familiar with this film.
00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:57.439
Whoo! Well, this is not an Oliver Stone movie, and maybe a harder watch than an Oliver Stone movie.
00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.600
You know, this is I think this is probably the toughest watch in the list, actually.
00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:09.120
Um, you know, there are a few movies that I I consider excellent films that I'll never watch again, right?
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.399
Um and Sid and Nancy is is kind of like that.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:18.959
I mean, this was um on the like being perfectly honest, re-watching it for the show was only the second time I've ever seen it, and now I remember why.
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.079
You know, it's it's like I loved train spotting and I thought it was a great film.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:25.839
I'll never watch it again.
00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:28.879
I, you know, Requiem for a Dream, same thing.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.879
Like superb filmmaking, I will never watch it again.
00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:38.480
Like I it's just too intense, it's too gritty, it's too dirty, the subject matter's too rough.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:40.480
And so that's what you get with Sid and Nancy.
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:52.079
Sid and Nancy is obviously um it's and this one's interesting too because it's about Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungon, his girlfriend, um, and they were a famous, you know, couple on the punk rock scene.
00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.920
Um, but you don't get a whole lot of the sex pistols in this, right?
00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:14.720
So if if we're doing a biopic story, um, this really focuses a lot on sort of the demise of the sex pistols due to Sid Vicious' incredibly tragic heroin addiction, um, and then kind of him branching off into his solo career very briefly.
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:28.079
Um, and so this really it's a hard one to categorize, especially in a biopic um conversation, because although you know Johnny Rotten features pretty prominently the other two band members, you see them, but not so much.
00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:29.920
It really does center on.
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:36.879
But but again, you know, when you think about the Sex Pistols, I think you think of Sid Vicious, maybe even before Johnny Rotten.
00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:38.319
Yeah, I mean, I hate to say that.
00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:50.959
John Linden's freaking out somewhere, but um, you know, like I I think that he was such a character, and yes, this relationship with Nancy because she was also such a character, um, and and just a disturbed person.
00:07:51.040 --> 00:08:02.399
I I, you know, I think that that's something that you don't get as much in the movie as I wish they would have shown that these people were disturbed for reasons, you know.
00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:09.279
I it wasn't just like, oh, we want to go out and we're so punk rock and we're gonna do all these drugs and you know ruin our lives.
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:14.959
Like I they they had there were things that occurred to them that caused them to be this way.
00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:17.279
And the movie doesn't really focus on any of that.
00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:27.839
It really is just kind of to me like a cautionary tale of what two mentally ill, codependent, heroin-addicted people looks like.
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.480
And so that's kind of what you get in Sid and Nancy.
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.399
You get, you know, sort of just the fun.
00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:44.000
It's I mean, for a brief moment in the the opening scenes of the movie, you kind of get that punk rock spirit, you know, that you you see Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten running around London just causing havoc.
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.960
And then as soon as Nancy comes into the picture, things kind of just go downhill quickly.
00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:56.159
But I will say you do get such um like a it feels gritty and dirty and you feel like you're there.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.600
Like that's probably why it was so uncomfortable to watch.
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:12.320
Yeah, and the structure of the film is interesting because even before those scenes where Sid and Johnny are kind of running around London, you you you start at the end and then they go backwards in time, right?
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:17.759
So it is a little, you know, to your point about being a hard watch, it's it's almost disorienting, right?
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:21.759
Because you start off and if you're not familiar with the story, you're just like, what is going on?
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.480
Like, you know, what like why are we starting here?
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.759
And then you go back and you're not even sure it's a different time.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.120
You're just like, is this a different?
00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:36.480
So it does take you a second to get you know the timeline figured out, and then um, you know, off we go.
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:54.399
But you're right, it is just they do a good job in this film of just showing how how bad things can get when it comes to heroin addiction and you know, all the all that comes with that, really, really any addiction, but in this film specifically heroin addiction.
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.960
And this was the first time I remember seeing that portrayed in such a graphic way, right?
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:04.559
You know, those other movies that I called out came out a lot later, um, you know, a lot later than this film.
00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.639
And so this was one of the first ones that I watched.
00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:13.120
I will say going back and watching it, and that was probably, oh my gosh, I was probably in high school when I first saw Sid and Nancy.
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.679
So I probably saw it in the early 90s the first time.
00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.559
Um and now this came out in 1986.
00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:20.320
86 is when this came out.
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:20.720
Yeah.
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:22.720
So and the doors in 91.
00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:30.879
Um, so I I think that I was probably in high school, you know, with friends, we were having a Sex Pistols phase and decided to watch the movie.
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:37.039
But watching it again, I will say it was kind of fun for some of the I mean, Easter eggs is the wrong word.
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:41.679
Um, but like, you know, they have a character in Sid and Nancy called Rockhead.
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:51.840
Um, and now as a grown-up person, he's a he's apparently like an older musician, but the Sex Pistols respect him, but he's not really so hardcore anymore.
00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:56.159
And Nancy knows him and he gave her some bad drugs once, and blah, blah, blah.
00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.919
And like now, as a grown-up, I'm like, oh, that's Iggy Pop, right?
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.000
Like that character is supposed to be Iggy Pop.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:05.759
But I, you know, as a young high schooler, I wasn't able to put that together.
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:25.200
And so, and if you don't know any of you know anything about the lore of the Hotel Chelsea and, you know, what that scene was like, like I think it's a different watch now, understanding some of the things a little bit better, and and like I said, being able to pick up on some of those, I don't like Easter egg is the wrong word, but just understanding time and place a little deeper.
00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:26.639
So I will say that about it.
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:39.279
It it was that was that was the the one bright bright ray of sunshine in this very dark film, you know, was kind of getting to like, oh, I didn't catch that the first time, you know, like things clicked a little more.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:45.360
All right, well, let's get into our criteria for round one, talking about historical accuracy.
00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:55.200
Um, well, going back to the doors, I mean, look, it's an Oliver Stone film, so things are gonna be a little overly uh dramatized, if you will.
00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:04.639
And um, yeah, but I mean there are certain scenes, like I mean, the scene in the desert where they all do peyote, apparently that that never happened by all accounts.
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:10.480
There's a there's a scene at like a Thanksgiving dinner where it gets out of hand, apparently that never happened.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:21.039
Um and and just generally, I think the surviving bandmates thought the movie made Jim Morrison just look so much meaner than he actually was, right?
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:35.759
Like, I mean, this really is I I know you said earlier it kind of was meant to show how Jim Morrison kind of came to be who he was, but it also like it's just one thing after an I don't think it makes him look likable, I guess, at the end of it.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:42.559
And maybe he wasn't, but I I guess like watching it, it does kind of hit upon that, in my opinion.
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:50.799
Yeah, I I think you're right, and I think we'll probably get into this deeper as we, you know, as we go down this list of movies and as films continue to advance.
00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:57.679
But there's I think one thing I've learned from me watching all these movies is there's a real fine line between crazy and genius, right?
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.639
Like or mentally ill and genius.
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:26.720
Like sometimes they go hand in hand, and I think that's what stood out in sort of this rewatch of the doors is that yeah, he's a he's a pretty disturbed guy at times, due heavily to his alcohol addiction um and you know, drug use, but he was also a poet and an artist, and I think that's kind of that gets a little bit lost because he just looks like such a mess, you know.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:42.240
And so I think um I think that's kind of my one like dig on the doors, re-watching it as an adult and and not like trying to separate myself from being so mesmerized by Val Kilmer's performance and just thinking about like the human Jim Morrison.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.480
Um yeah, I I think it does make him look a little bit like a caricature, you know.
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:56.559
Yeah, yeah, almost like a it's like a wrestling portrayal, you know, professional wrestling where you kind of you know make one aspect of your personality super big.
00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:05.679
It's almost like it almost did that a little bit where you couldn't quite figure out, you know, at a certain point it's like, how did this band not break up every week, right?
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:14.799
If this is really how he's treating people, and turns out if you if you hear the bandmates talk about this movie, it's like he wasn't like that all the time.
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.519
Like this wasn't just a constant barrage of of sort of aggressiveness.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.799
Um, you're right.
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.559
He he did have this side to him where he was, you know, introspective and and poetic and all this.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:32.960
And I mean he wrote a lot of these songs, but you just didn't get a lot of that outside of maybe the opening scenes.
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.799
It's almost like once he became famous, it's like, all right, forget all that.
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:38.399
You know, I'm a rock star now.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:39.519
Yeah, totally.
00:14:39.679 --> 00:15:03.519
And you get some of that like in some of those weird like interview scenes, you know, where he's lying about his parents being dead, and you know, things like that where you're just like, oh, okay, like he's kind of a disturbed person, or he's leaned in hard on this, you know, I'm a genius, nobody understands me, you know, I'm just gonna go be my own person, kind of thing.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:10.000
Like, and what you hear is that he wasn't really like that isolated and he wasn't that arrogant, you know.
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:16.960
Like he he he was gifted as a poet and an artist, but he was not, you know I think I think you said it best.
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:21.679
Like it's a simple word, but I don't think he was as mean as they portray him to be.
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:26.879
And and you know, and and I think people are selfish when they're in the throes of addiction, right?
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.480
Because the addiction is never one.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:34.639
So I'm sure that was probably pretty accurate, but I don't think that he was uh yeah, that he was as as terrible.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:40.559
And by all the the surviving band member accounts, like he was definitely not as terrible as he's portrayed in this.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.799
All right, Jen, let's talk about historical accuracy with Sid and Nancy.
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.679
Okay, so Sid and Nancy is not we're we're not gonna get a lot of points for historical accuracy in this one.
00:15:51.840 --> 00:16:08.080
Um what we will get points for though is like, you know, the the ambiance and I think just like we said, the brutal, ugly, harsh truth about what really horribly addicted people who are just spiraling out of control together can look like.
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.159
Um and so I think that's really what you get.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:20.559
But if you're looking at like, I want to learn about the Sex Pistols, I want to know, you know, what they're what they were like as punk ro punk rock pioneers, this is not the film for you.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:20.960
Right.
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.639
You're not really gonna get any of that.
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.879
Um you're gonna get the demise of the band.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:30.639
Um, you don't even get a whole lot of um like performance scenes.
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.960
You get some, um, but you don't get a a ton of of even seeing them live.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:59.440
Like you get a a little bit of them, you know, in the clubs with people throwing bottles and you know, gross things, you know, but uh there's there's not even like a big well, like I was gonna say there's not a big performance moment, but you do get a really cool moment when Sid Vicious is um recording his version of of the Frank Sinatra classic My Way, which was kind of the big, you know, Sid Vicious solo hit.
00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.559
Um so you do kind of get a cool moment there.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.559
Um, but you know, there's not a lot.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:10.319
This is not gonna, this is not gonna be a a primer on the sex pistols, if that's what you're looking for.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:10.880
Right.
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:16.720
But I do think, you know, to your point earlier about kind of the reference to Iggy Pop and the Chelsea Hotel.
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:29.359
I do think if you're sort of if you come across this movie and you're kind of curious about some of the stuff, I do think there's enough references in here to get you started down a rabbit hole of like, what was that about?
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:30.480
Oh, what was this about?
00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:35.359
And you can kind of use it to branch out and learn what actually happened.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.960
Well, I that's a that's a that's a good way to phrase it, yes.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:39.680
Yeah.
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:48.720
And and it gives you just kind of the sense of like you, like you said, the the the ambiance and sort of the the style of it is pretty accurate.
00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:54.880
It's more just the details and timeline piece that they sort of fudge around with um in this movie.
00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.119
And clearly the focus is on Sid and his relationship with Nancy, right?
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.319
Like it's right there in the title.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:01.599
So it's there in the title.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:07.200
It's not called, you know, the Sex Pistols biography or the story of the Sex Pistols, right?
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.720
So I think that you also have to know what you're going in for.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.079
But I think that's a great way to look at it.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:18.960
Like, yes, if you are curious and you want to sort of jump in the rabbit hole, um, this is a good, this is a good way to do that.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.559
As long as the rabbit hole you're jumping into is not heroin.
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.079
Like, well, let me let's say that.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.759
Like stay away from that heroin.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.200
Stay away from that.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:28.640
Um that's no good.
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:30.640
That's our PSA for this week.
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:32.400
Yeah, don't do that.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:49.119
But yeah, and I think for people out there wondering why this movie was made, um, you know, I don't think it's a spoiler alert, 40 years after the fact, but you know, there's an accidental stabbing where Sid Vicious stabs Nancy, and and that's when she ultimately passes away.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.680
And I think that was the genesis of this movie.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:19:02.960
It was just sort of highlighting this relationship because some people at the time thought this was a premeditated murder, and and there was a lot of things surrounding like, how did this happen?
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:10.240
And so that was really the focus of the movie is showing their relationship and then her ultimate death.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:17.039
Um, and then we get that weird scene at the end, which is almost like you know, the ending of Greece or something where they get in the car and drive.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:17.440
Yep.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:18.079
Like I don't know.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:35.680
I wrote the same note why they went that that direction there at the end, but but yeah, like that's that's why it was made because I know we've kind of talked about how it's not really focused on the sex pistols, you know, Sid Vicious didn't have this, you know, long and storied solo career, although he was very famous.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:40.799
Um it it is the accidental murder that I think ended up being the genesis for this movie.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:59.599
Yeah, and then you know, his death shortly after, again, not a spoiler alert because it's been 40 years since all this happened, but yeah, like he sh sh he you know the the story goes, and you see the retelling in the film that you know she often asked him, I think there are two or three scenes in the movie where she's like, if I ever asked you to kill me, would you?
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:06.799
Um, and so the you know, the scene in the movie is that she's like begging him to please like she cannot wake up another day in this life.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:20.079
You know, they've been trapped in room 100 at the Hotel Chelsea, which is you know a famous room, um, where people knew like drug dealers and druggies hung out, and so they were really living this horrible existence there.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:32.400
Um whenever Sid Vicious stabbed Nancy, and then he never even went to trial because before he spent some time in jail, he was out on bail, and while he was out on bail, um he he died of a heroin overdose.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.039
And so I think that's what that final ending scene is.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.279
Listeners, I'll be really curious to hear what your thoughts are about that ending.
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.079
Um it is, it's a really interesting style choice.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:49.279
You know, he's going to the, I'm air-quoting, the pizza place, the pizza shack in the middle of nowhere.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.240
So yeah, you see this very weird scene where he's like indulging in pizza.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:59.519
Um, and you're like, wait, why is there, why is he there wouldn't be a pizza place there in a little bitty shack?
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.640
And, you know, it's very it is a very strange, interesting thing.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.799
And then he steps outside and there are some kids listening to disco music, and they ask him to dance with them.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:17.279
It was actually probably one of my most favorite moments of the movie, even though it is a very strange choice for an ending.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:23.039
Um, and then yeah, they they go off together in a limo, you know, this limo randomly pulls up.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:28.640
Nancy's inside wearing a wedding dress and off they drive, just like you know, in Greece when they fly into the sky.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.160
Like it's all this is how we're ending this.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:33.119
This is how we're doing it.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.119
And credits, yeah.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:36.400
Um, all right.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.279
Well, we've touched on this already with both of these films, but let's talk about the lead performance.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.279
And I mean, with the doors, Val Kilmer, just incredible.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.160
I mean, really embodies Jim Morrison.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:59.359
He learned to sing about fifty of their songs or so, and I mean, just the way he sounded, the way he moved, even the surviving band bandmates were like blown away.
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.079
But By how much he embodied Jim Morrison.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.160
So um can't say enough about the lead performance in that movie.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:12.960
And I think this one is probably second only to Selena in terms of like physical similarities, right?
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:13.440
Yes.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.039
And it might be like they might be tied up for me, honestly.
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.720
Like Val Kilmer resembled the real Jim Morrison so much.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:28.880
You get it in that famous photo shoot scene, you know, the the shirtless leather pants with Jim Morrison, like um against the Stark background.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:34.559
Like everybody knows that photo and seeing that recreated, it it is really hard to tell like which is which.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.839
And so I give high, high marks to Val Kilmer um for his performance as Jim Morrison.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.680
And you know, the supporting cast here is good too.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.000
Like I said, if this one advances, we'll get into that.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.920
But um Kyle McLaughlin does a great Rayman Zeric in this.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.200
Um, I think that there are some other really great performances.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.839
You know, this is an interesting role for Meg Ryan, is the female lead and Jim Morris's girlfriend, Pamela Corson.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:03.200
Um, you know, she's so cute and sweet that it's almost hard to take.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:09.119
Like, I I remember like having rom-com Meg Ryan in my head, you know, while I'm watching this.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:21.119
And I was trying to go back and think, you know, whenever the movie came out in '91, she would she'd she'd done enough things that people kind of associated her with that bubbly personality at that point, I think.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:25.599
Um so it but now, I mean, her whole catalog is that.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:32.079
And so it was interesting going back this many years later and and re-watching Meg Ryan in this role.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.359
Yeah, definitely an outlier for her career.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.240
But we can talk about that if if the movie advances.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.880
So uh, Jen, talk about Gary Oldman's performance in Sid and Nancy.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:44.960
Uh to me, spectacular.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:45.839
Same thing.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:51.920
Like he does do um, he does do some singing, no one in the cast, lip synced.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:52.960
Um, they had a ton.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.920
This was another one where they had a ton of legal restrictions.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:07.680
And so another contr another contributing factor to why the movie's not super historically accurate or or all about the sex pistols, I should, you know, say that it wasn't just the director's choice.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.640
There were a ton of legal battles and lots of things wrapped up um in court whenever this movie was made.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.440
But I think Gary Oldman's fantastic in this.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.960
I think he looks like Sid Vicious, I think he acts like Sid Vicious.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.119
I think you see a character arc.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:30.319
I think we get him, you know, when he's just kind of a rowdy punk all the way to this just terrible mess of a junkie.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.359
Um and Gary Oldman carries it all the way through.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:34.960
I think that this movie is long.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.160
I think it's like 30 minutes too long, honestly.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:43.519
Like I think they could have cut half an hour out of this film and we still would have gotten the same thing.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.319
But uh Gary Oldman commands the stage for me.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:56.559
Now, Chloe Webb as Nancy is a tough watch, but by all accounts, everybody says that, you know, Nancy was pretty insufferable, insufferable.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.519
Like she had this really harsh New York accent.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:02.559
She had a her voice was really pitchy and screechy.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.400
Like you hear that a lot in accounts.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:11.680
And so I think Chloe Webb probably captured her pretty accurately, but um she was pretty insufferable.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.519
Like, I never need to hear anybody scream ever again.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:24.960
Like, I feel like I've I you hear it so many times in the movie, her screeching his name that it's like it starts to get grating.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.000
But you know, in her defense, Nancy's mom went on the record, she hated this movie.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.279
Um, she thought it was a terrible portrayal of her daughter.
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.920
Um, and and she shared too that her daughter had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at 15.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:47.119
So you get this picture of this woman that's just kind of like drug addicted and grating, but you don't really get the backstory that she's also deeply, deeply mentally ill.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:48.720
Right and unmedicated.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.039
And unmedicated except for the heroine.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:01.200
Um the booze and you know, the dru the other drugs that they're that are around in the you know late 70s, early 80s punk rock scene.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.240
So yeah, I think that Gary Oldman is fantastic.
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:10.240
This is uh an amazing performance turned in from him, um, especially given that he did his own singing.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.799
You know, I mean it's not it's not super melodic.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.440
We're not talking about the Freddie Mercury for Octave Range here for what they did.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.160
Um but it it's also famous that Gary Oldman hates this movie.
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:30.559
He hates this performance, and he says that anytime it's on, if he's flipping channels and he sees it, he has to look away because he's so ashamed of this performance.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.400
I know, shocking, right?
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:45.839
Well, because I think his performance, uh as well as Chloe Webb, is what makes it such a hard watch because they do seem so just so out there that it's like, oh my god, these people, like just the self-destruction.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.039
I mean, it's just very it's very difficult to watch, but I agree with you.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:55.920
I mean, he does he does an amazing job and and just the way he looks, like you know, physically, all of that.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:58.480
I mean, he really he really committed to the role here.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.880
Yeah, and shout out to costumes and makeup.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:13.920
Like the makeup artist in this film does such a good job of making them just look sick and sores and bruises, and they definitely this is not a glamorous portrayal.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.440
No, not at all.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.160
Not at all.
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.200
All right, Jen.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.759
So neither one scores high in historical accuracy.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:22.079
We've got two great lead performances.
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:23.359
So what do you think?
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
Uh which one of these films will advance?
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:27.279
I mean, this one's kind of easy for me.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.440
Like uh for me, it's the doors.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.119
Uh, you know, I think that it's uh Oliver Stone is an incredible filmmaker.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.200
He's one of the best of our time, I think.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.640
Um controversial, yes, but I think such a visionary.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.519
Um and Sid and Nancy is not a bad movie.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.359
I I don't want to discourage listeners from going out and checking it out.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:46.720
It's just a hard watch.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:56.319
You know, the the drug use and the abuse is brutal in in both of these films, but Sid and Nancy takes it to, again, like a train spotting requiem for a dream type level.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.160
So um I I think that that both films are good, but for me, this is this is kind of an easy battle.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.000
I I think the doors has it.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:12.160
Yeah, I I think the doors are the is the one to advance just because you know this is kind of an apex moment for Val Kilmer, right?
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.480
Like this was the him at the top of his game.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:14.799
Yep.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.079
And like you just said, Gary Oldman doesn't even like this performance.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:25.119
And I think we've probably seen better Gary Oldman, not because this is a bad performance, but because he's such an incredible actor.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.680
He's done so many great movies since then.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.200
So I would agree.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:36.000
I think the Doors advances and moves on to the finals of the groups or bands division.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:44.240
So next week we'll be back with the other matchup in this bracket, which is straight out of Compton versus Love and Mercy.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:51.119
So, like I said, we'll put out a mixtape with every one of these episodes, but you can make your own at my dotsuperaw mix dot com.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.279
We'll be back next week with another episode of the battle.
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.680
So for Jen, this is Matt, and we'll see you then.
