Dating After Divorce: Boyfriend vs Husband

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Language: en
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All right, I lost count of the for the
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boys
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episode number. Cannot tell you what
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episode number this is, but this is for
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the boys. This is for the boys who
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started dating again and
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they are exploring dating. Maybe they
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were already dating in a relationship
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with someone. and we're going to talk
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about
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something kind of difficult, like
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the difference between showing up as a
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boyfriend and a husband,
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how that feels different, how it looks
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different, pros and cons of each. And
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then we're also going to dive into
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not only how boyfriends can and do show
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up differently, but also we're going to
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talk about
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whether or not you want to be a stepdad,
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if that's a fear you have and a reason
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why you avoid dating women with
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children, even though you might have
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your own children. And I may have a very
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different perspective on this than a lot
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of women and even a lot of therapists.
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So, we'll see what your thoughts are.
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Hopefully, I'll get some comments and
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feedback. But somewhere around a third
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or fourth date, a lot of times women
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look across the table at you and say
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something like, "Wow, like you're so
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steady. You're so easy to be with." And
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that might land strange for some of you
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because for a lot of years, the person
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who you knew best was using very
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different words. So if you've done some
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healing work or you just feel like a
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whole new person on the other side of
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your divorce or maybe you're going
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through the divorce right now,
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you might not be getting the same type
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of reaction from women than what you're
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used to because of all those years in
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marriage if it wasn't working.
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So the question underneath this whole
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episode is how can the same man be the
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disappointment in one person's story and
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then a safe harbor in another? And today
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we're going to answer that honestly. And
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we're getting into stuff I feel like
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nobody wants to say out loud. The real
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difference between being a boyfriend,
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being a husband,
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and being a husband with someone and
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having children with them. It's very
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different. And
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it's actually different. And it doesn't
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just feel that way. So, what it means to
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date a woman with children versus a
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woman without children or even a woman
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with adult children versus a woman with
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younger children, school age.
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And
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then again, like I said, that question
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that a lot of men want to avoid cuz they
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don't want to think about it like, do
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you want to be a stepfather?
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So, let's get into it. Welcome back to
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For the Boys. This is a series for men
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who are in the middle of it, divorce,
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dating again, and the strange work of
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figuring out who you are on the other
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side of your marriage when it ends. So,
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there's no performance here, no
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posturing, just the truth and some
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research to back it up because I feel
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like that helps with men. Um, and I want
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to say a little bit about, but not too
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much about what inspired me to make this
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episode. A big transitional period in my
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family's life has just happened. my
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ex-husband has remarried. And
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I found myself asking a lot of these
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questions as I looked and saw photos and
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heard the stories of their wedding and
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even saw my husband's social media
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during their honeymoon. And I thought,
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wow, like
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we're in such a different place
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with our partners now than we were with
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one another. And
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I'll be honest, I think that a lot of
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what I was afraid of when I was in the
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process of leaving and considering
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leaving was that he would be a better
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partner to someone else and that I would
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have to witness that and I would have
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regret.
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But the truth was and it still is that
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because we had children together and
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because we were married, not boyfriend
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or girlfriend,
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there were responsibilities that each of
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us thought the other person signed up
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for that the other person didn't want to
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do. And so
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there was just an impossible situation
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where we couldn't have lacked resentment
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for one another because
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there was an expectation
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on both sides and expectations that
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weren't being met. That now for me, I'm
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in a relationship with someone who is my
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boyfriend, but we don't share finances.
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We don't share a home. We don't share
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home duties. He does not step in like a
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stepdad at all and engages very little
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with my kids who are much older.
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Therefore, some of the things that
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created conflict in my marriage just
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don't exist at all
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in my relationship. And that's by
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choice. And then I don't want to speak
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for him, but uh he's in a relationship
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with someone with adult kids, so that's
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also very different. And he doesn't have
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a lot of the responsibilities that some
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dads have with his own kids, and they're
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older. So, let's start with the paradox
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here, okay? Your ex thinks you're the
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worst. Your new partner thinks that you
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hung the moon. Right? Talking to the
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men, the easy move is to decide one of
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them is wrong. Right?
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I could do the same cuz I definitely
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know that my boyfriend thinks that there
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is no better woman on earth and he can't
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believe
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that I'm real. And I'm just telling you
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what he says because I don't nag. I
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don't complain. I don't neg him or tease
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him in a mean way.
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I'm always
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super enthusiastic to be with him and be
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doing whatever it is we are doing
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together. My level of enthusiasm
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is probably over the top and that's
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never changed. And yet
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that none of those things would be
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re the realities of how I was in my
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marriage. Let's try to resist
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the need to say
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our ex
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is wrong and our new partner is right.
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All right? Like we didn't we're not
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showing up the same way. Most of the
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time, both of them are describing
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something real. So, here's what's
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actually changed. It wasn't your
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character. It was the container that you
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were in. Okay. The container I'm in
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right now is really fun, full of desire
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and passion. And even after 3 years,
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it's still so fun. It's a fun container.
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There's no real world like hard
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problems. We're not in a business
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relationship, which
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is kind of what the container, the
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marriage container ended up being.
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So in a marriage raising children, it's
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a specific kind of pressure system,
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right? The container is full of
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pressure. Then there are years of
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logistics and unequal exhaustion and
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roles that get harder with time and one
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person pursuing, the other person
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pulling away, both people waiting for
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the other to move first.
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So researchers at the Gotman Institute
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do have a name for this. They call it
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the pursue withdraw pattern and it's one
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of the most reliable predictors of
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disconnection in long-term couples. The
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key word is pattern. It's a system two
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people get caught inside. It's not a
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verdict on who you are. It's a pattern
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that you have both fallen into. take
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away the shared project of raising small
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kids
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and the same man can show up present in
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a way he genuinely could not show up
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before. And something I think that
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nobody talks about, but is so important
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is that some men
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don't want to be part of the child
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rearing at all. And so they hide from it
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in being a workaholic. Not saying that's
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why everyone is a workaholic, but some
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people do that. They don't want to come
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home. They don't know what to do with
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the kids. It's not enjoyable for them.
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They love their children, but they don't
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enjoy
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being there and helping in that process.
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So,
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they stay at work.
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And that is a very different kind of
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container
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in and of itself because the pressure
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that is organizing in that system is
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immense. And the pressure
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uh that's organizing around raising
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children in general is pretty intense.
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So when you feel like a different man in
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this new relationship or you feel like a
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different man in the dating world, if
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that's where you at, you definitely
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might be and probably are. But let's
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stay honest about why. Because I think
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it can be really hurtful and harmful for
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someone to say, "Well, I'm a better man
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with this woman because she's better to
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me."
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Without taking into consideration the
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circumstances that other person was in
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the relationship with you in. Okay? So,
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that's all I'm going to leave it there,
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but I think you know what I'm saying. So
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let's talk about
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the words themselves.
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Boyfriend,
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husband. We use them casually, but they
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carry completely different weight.
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Husband is a thick word. It comes loaded
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with provision and permanence and
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accumulated ledger of a shared life.
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Every promise
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you did keep or you didn't keep, it's
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all there. boyfriend is lighter. It gets
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chosen again and again every morning.
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So part of what men feel as relief in a
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new relationship is exactly that, the
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relief of being elective again. You're a
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choice
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and you're being chosen
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and you're feeling wanted rather than
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owed. Right? so different. The therapist
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Esparel, Esther Pel, talks about how
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desire needs a certain amount of space
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.430
and freedom to survive. That we're drawn
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.910
to a partner most when there's still
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something chosen, something not fully
00:12:12.079 --> 00:12:15.829
guaranteed in it. So, a new relationship
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has that already built in. It's part of
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the new relationship. A long marriage by
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design trades some of that space
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for security.
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Neither is better. Um but they are
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.230
different and the difference is real and
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it's really important especially in this
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conversation. There's a deeper reason
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the husband role feels so heavy and the
00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:44.790
new role after divorce feels so light.
00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:47.829
And it's not just personal. Back in like
00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:50.310
1978, there was a sociologist named
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.150
Angie Andrew Cherlin and he wrote a
00:12:54.160 --> 00:12:57.670
landmark paper describing remarage as
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what he called an incomplete
00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:01.269
institution.
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His point was this. First marriage comes
00:13:04.560 --> 00:13:07.590
with a full set of social scripts.
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Everyone roughly knows what a husband
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.110
is, what a wife is, how in-laws work,
00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.190
who does what.
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remarage and especially step family life
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comes with almost none of that. There's
00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:23.750
no agreed upon script, no clear rules.
00:13:23.760 --> 00:13:26.150
And as we'll see, that missing script
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.550
explains a lot of what makes the second
00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:30.870
time around so much harder to navigate
00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:32.870
than anyone expects. Now, we're not
00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:34.710
talking about a boyfriend anymore. We're
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.389
talking about a remarage. totally
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.230
different scenario because now you've
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.470
got husband and husband but this
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husband's role is very can be very
00:13:44.880 --> 00:13:50.470
different. Um, so
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I think you have to ask directly like
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when a second relationship has no shared
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.509
kids in it, it's going to feel lighter
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:02.230
and freer and easier. But is that real
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or are you just in the honeymoon phase
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.550
fooling yourself? The honest answer is
00:14:08.560 --> 00:14:10.550
some of both. And the research actually
00:14:10.560 --> 00:14:12.710
helps us separate the two. Here's the
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part that's real. Sociologists have
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found for decades that higher
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.470
instability of remarages isn't really
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.189
about remarage itself.
00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:25.110
There were two researchers, White and
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:28.550
Booth, that showed back in the 80s that
00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:32.710
elevated divorce risk is concentrated in
00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.910
families with stepchildren,
00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:39.590
not in remarried couples generally. The
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.670
second marriage between two people with
00:14:41.680 --> 00:14:44.470
no kids in the mix tends to look
00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.629
statistically a lot like a first
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.110
marriage. But it's the presence of
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:51.110
children from the prior relationship
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.150
that introduces the real structural
00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:57.750
strain and the blended family problems.
00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:01.030
And the numbers on that strain is really
00:15:01.040 --> 00:15:04.790
sobering. One really large analysis that
00:15:04.800 --> 00:15:08.629
I found by Wendy Manning
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.829
found that among women under 45, roughly
00:15:11.839 --> 00:15:14.310
one in five first marriages ends in
00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.030
divorce within 5 years, but closer to
00:15:17.040 --> 00:15:20.870
one in three remarages does. But let me
00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:22.870
be careful with that figure or those
00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:25.509
figures because they're very broad like
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.069
national averages and your life is not
00:15:28.079 --> 00:15:30.069
an average. So, I always want to be
00:15:30.079 --> 00:15:31.670
careful
00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:34.710
to be clear,
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.110
but the direction is clear and it's
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.670
worth respecting. So, when your kid-free
00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:42.870
relationship feels different, it's not
00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:45.829
entirely an illusion. Structurally, it
00:15:45.839 --> 00:15:50.069
is different. You've removed the single
00:15:50.079 --> 00:15:53.350
biggest source of second marriage strain
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.310
before it ever entered the room, which
00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.870
is going to just feel better.
00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:00.870
But here's the other half of the truth.
00:16:00.880 --> 00:16:02.870
The part you have to be honest about.
00:16:02.880 --> 00:16:04.949
Some of that lightness is just the
00:16:04.959 --> 00:16:07.749
absence of history, too. Your ex-wife
00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:09.509
didn't start as the person who you
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.590
thought you were, who thought you were
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.030
the worst. That accumulated over time. A
00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:16.790
new partner hasn't had time to build up
00:16:16.800 --> 00:16:19.990
a single grievance yet. There's no
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.790
mortgage of small resentments, no 15
00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:25.509
years of unmet expectations.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.189
That's not because she's a better match.
00:16:27.199 --> 00:16:29.110
It's because the meter hasn't started
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:33.030
running yet. Both things are true at
00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:36.150
once. So, hold them both and be
00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:37.910
realistic
00:16:37.920 --> 00:16:42.949
and face reality of this. And hopefully
00:16:42.959 --> 00:16:45.269
between these two relationships or
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:46.629
marriages, you've done the work on
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:51.910
yourself to improve the parts of you
00:16:51.920 --> 00:16:54.790
that made it hard to meet their
00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:56.310
expectations
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.629
or set boundaries or whatever issues
00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.350
that you had in the marriage. So, let's
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.509
be practical now because a lot of you
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.669
are dating women who have children. And
00:17:05.679 --> 00:17:07.350
I want to say this clearly, dating a
00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:11.829
woman with kids is not one experience.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.630
It changes shape completely
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.909
depending on how old the kids are, how
00:17:17.919 --> 00:17:20.549
many kids there are, and each individual
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.829
family dynamic. So let's break it down a
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.909
little bit. Like if she has very young
00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:28.789
kids, say under eight, a couple of
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.669
things could be true. The daily texture
00:17:31.679 --> 00:17:33.430
pulls
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.350
you in the direction of a caretaking
00:17:35.360 --> 00:17:38.630
role fast, right? Whether either of you
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.789
planned it or not, pickups, bedtime,
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.470
sick days, somebody else's tantrum,
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.750
you may have to play a role in. But
00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:49.669
here's the piece that of the research
00:17:49.679 --> 00:17:52.070
that surprises people. Younger kids and
00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:56.470
boys in particular tend to accept a step
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.710
father more easily.
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:00.870
Dr. Pepper. Now, one of the world's
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.270
leading step family researchers, has
00:18:03.280 --> 00:18:06.310
found that step family life is generally
00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:09.350
easier for children eight and under and
00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:12.549
easier for boys than girls. So, young
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.750
kids pull you in faster, but they often
00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:18.630
let you in faster, too, which makes a
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.310
lot of sense. If the woman has
00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:23.270
teenagers, the equation flips. You get
00:18:23.280 --> 00:18:25.909
more dayto-day autonomy. A 15-year-old
00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:27.990
doesn't need you at bedtime, but
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.669
adolescence does hold fierce loyalties,
00:18:31.679 --> 00:18:34.230
especially to the parent they may feel
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.110
got hurt in the divorce. So, the
00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:39.510
research is specific here. Step families
00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:42.470
are hardest for girls, especially hard
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.430
for young teenage girls. That is not a
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.510
knock on you. You could be the kindest
00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:50.230
man alive and still get held at an arms
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.270
length for a really long time. If that's
00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:55.350
the situation you're walking into, you
00:18:55.360 --> 00:18:57.430
need to know that it's normal and you
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.990
need to not take it personally or as a
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.830
personal failure.
00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:03.590
And
00:19:03.600 --> 00:19:07.669
your partner, their mother needs to
00:19:07.679 --> 00:19:10.870
realize that as well. And if her kids
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.029
are grown and they're out of the house,
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:14.870
you get the most freedom of all. This is
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.310
the best case scenario. But
00:19:18.320 --> 00:19:20.230
don't mistake grown kids for absent
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.549
kids. The children are never going to
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.990
leave her frame. There are holidays and
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.789
weddings and grandchildren and a
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:30.710
mother's attention that will always
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.909
route back toward their kids. Papa now
00:19:33.919 --> 00:19:37.510
even notes that the adult daughters of
00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:40.630
repartnering fathers can struggle with
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:46.150
it as much as young kids do. So her kids
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.669
being adults doesn't mean that her kids
00:19:49.679 --> 00:19:52.950
won't matter or have opinions or needs.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.230
Um it just means that the challenges
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.870
move to a different terrain and the
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.750
dayto-day interaction is very different.
00:20:01.760 --> 00:20:04.390
I know that probably seems obvious, but
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.270
I do want to talk about the fantasy of
00:20:07.280 --> 00:20:09.110
the blended family because almost
00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:11.110
everyone walks into this carrying like
00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:12.789
this picture of the Brady Bunch.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.029
Everybody gathered warmly around one big
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.950
table. The kids adoring you. All the
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.510
awkwardness dissolved by good intentions
00:20:21.520 --> 00:20:25.669
and love. The Brady Bunch. The research
00:20:25.679 --> 00:20:28.870
here is genuinely humbling. So, let me
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.230
give it to you really straight.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:35.190
Uh, step families take years to actually
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.190
come together. Not month, years.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.149
Peppell's work along with other major
00:20:42.159 --> 00:20:46.070
researcher named James Bray found the
00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:48.470
average step family takes somewhere
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.270
between four and seven years to
00:20:51.280 --> 00:20:54.390
genuinely cohhere into a functioning
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.350
unit. The faster one, usually with young
00:20:57.360 --> 00:21:02.630
kids and very intentional adults,
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.669
they can do it in about four. The slower
00:21:05.679 --> 00:21:09.029
ones can take 9, 10, or even 12 years.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.190
Bray found that most step families don't
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.510
even start to think or feel like a
00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:15.430
family until the end of the second or
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.190
third year.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.789
So, let that be a reset button for your
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.430
expectations not to put too much on
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:26.230
yourself. If you're 2 years in and it
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.230
still feels really effortful and
00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:31.110
awkward, you're not failing. You're
00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:34.230
exactly precisely on schedule.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.870
And Papernel puts it in a way that I
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.950
love. She says, "Trying to run a step
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.590
family using the instincts of a first
00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:43.590
family is like trying to navigate the
00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:45.510
streets of New York City using a map of
00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:48.630
Boston. The map isn't bad. It's just the
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.549
wrong city."
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.789
Most of the pain in blended families
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.549
happens because people are using the
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.870
wrong map and then blaming themselves
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.909
when they get lost. So, here's the
00:21:59.919 --> 00:22:01.990
thing. Here's the thing that's worth
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.630
sitting with. For a lot of children,
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.350
becoming a step family is a lot harder
00:22:07.360 --> 00:22:09.990
than the divorce was. That's not the
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.350
reason a reason to avoid it or to avoid
00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:15.430
women who have kids. It's a reason to
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.430
walk in with your eyes open and to stop
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.990
expecting a feeling of an instant
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.950
family. And this goes for men and women.
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.549
The research doesn't support that's what
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.270
really happens. And 9 years is a long
00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:34.789
time. It's another real question, the
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:37.110
one I think most men are going to skip
00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:39.590
right past. Do you want to be a
00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:42.390
stepfather?
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.990
Do you want to play a role in the life
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.029
of the woman you are with? Kids, and I'm
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.830
not asking can you. I'm not asking can
00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:58.149
you tolerate it. I'm not asking
00:22:58.159 --> 00:23:01.510
will she leave if you don't. Right? I'm
00:23:01.520 --> 00:23:05.110
not asking is it the price of admission.
00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:10.070
I'm asking do you want that role?
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:12.070
A lot of men never ask themselves this
00:23:12.080 --> 00:23:14.549
cleanly because there's a loud cultural
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.310
script that makes the question feel
00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:20.710
really shameful and I want to remove
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:22.789
the shame.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.510
I know you hear it everywhere, even in
00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:27.270
the manosphere,
00:23:27.280 --> 00:23:31.510
but even in the dating apps, I would see
00:23:31.520 --> 00:23:33.909
and hear people talking about and
00:23:33.919 --> 00:23:35.750
complaining about men who didn't want to
00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:38.470
date women with kids because the script
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.149
says a man who doesn't want to raise
00:23:40.159 --> 00:23:42.070
another man's kids is selfish or
00:23:42.080 --> 00:23:44.870
immature or not a real man or afraid of
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.789
commitment.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:50.070
I want to challenge that directly.
00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:52.310
That script is not the truth. Just like
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.870
women who don't want to have children,
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.510
there's nothing wrong with them. Here's
00:23:57.520 --> 00:23:59.430
what's actually true. A fulfilling,
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:01.830
committed, loving partnership does not
00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:05.830
require you to become a third parent.
00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:08.149
Remember Chirin I talked about earlier?
00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:11.750
The steparent role is an incomplete
00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:15.350
institution. There's no law, no script,
00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:18.149
no rule that says loving a woman means
00:24:18.159 --> 00:24:20.789
signing up to co-parent her children.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.269
And I believe that firmly.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.669
Those are two different commitments. You
00:24:25.679 --> 00:24:30.390
can be steady and warm and consistent.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.549
And you can be present in a child's
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:35.590
life, someone who's reliable and safe
00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:38.149
without being a disciplinarian, without
00:24:38.159 --> 00:24:41.190
carrying the title of dad or stepdad,
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.750
without making someone else's parenting
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:46.390
your whole identity and taking over
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.190
their responsibilities.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.190
And the research agrees with this. One
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.190
of the most consistent findings in the
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:59.029
field is that stepfathers who charge in
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.549
early trying to be an authority figure,
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.070
laying down the rules, handing out
00:25:04.080 --> 00:25:05.590
discipline,
00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:08.149
tend to make things worse, not better.
00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:10.710
The ones who do best start as something
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.110
closer to a warm, friendly, trusted
00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:16.070
adult and let any deeper roles just
00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:18.710
build slowly over years. if it builds at
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.630
all.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.669
So the pressure to instantly become dad
00:25:23.679 --> 00:25:27.830
isn't just heavy. It's actually
00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:30.630
totally counterproductive.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.110
Loving a woman and supporting how she
00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:34.870
mothers is not the same thing as
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:36.390
co-parenting.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.390
And pretending those are identical
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:42.070
serves no one, least of all the kid.
00:25:42.080 --> 00:25:43.909
Those kids can feel the difference
00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:46.070
between a man who genuinely chose the
00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:49.190
role and a man who's performing it out
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.029
of obligation.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.070
Children read that. They see it in your
00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:55.669
energy
00:25:55.679 --> 00:26:00.070
and they always pick up on it. So,
00:26:00.080 --> 00:26:04.149
I'm not saying that you shouldn't step
00:26:04.159 --> 00:26:06.310
in as a stepdad if that's something you
00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:09.430
really want. And I know people who have
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.430
incredible stepfathers and they said
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.350
they love me like they I was their own
00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:17.029
and
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.269
they came in when I didn't have a dad
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:22.149
present or I have my dad and my stepdad
00:26:22.159 --> 00:26:24.549
and it worked out great. Those things
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.310
all happen too. All I'm saying is ask
00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:31.110
yourself the question
00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:34.230
and don't buy in
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.070
to the program that says that if you are
00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:40.950
with a woman who has children that you
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.990
have to become you have to fall into
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.110
this stuff stepdad or dad obligations.
00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:52.549
There are women like myself who will
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.830
happily be with you
00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:58.470
and let you kind of stay out of their
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:01.510
kids' lives. That is possible.
00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:02.950
Obviously, if you're getting married and
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.430
everyone's living in the same place,
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:07.830
you're going to become a stepdad.
00:27:07.840 --> 00:27:09.510
But
00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:11.909
if you're just staying a boyfriend, you
00:27:11.919 --> 00:27:14.149
not have to do that. And I think that a
00:27:14.159 --> 00:27:18.390
lot more women feel more comfortable
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.549
not mixing, not blending the two. And me
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:24.310
personally, like this has been a choice
00:27:24.320 --> 00:27:27.110
that we've made that until my kids are
00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:29.669
completely adults.
00:27:29.679 --> 00:27:32.549
my boyfriend is
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:34.789
playing like a minimal role in their
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.430
life, cordial,
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.909
but he was very strong in saying that
00:27:41.919 --> 00:27:44.630
that's what he wanted very early on. And
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.549
so I had a choice to
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.269
continue to be with him, knowing this
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:53.350
and knowing that he had been honest with
00:27:53.360 --> 00:27:56.549
me. It's not about my kid. It's about
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:01.750
him and his desire to have not had kids
00:28:01.760 --> 00:28:03.590
and
00:28:03.600 --> 00:28:06.789
other things, but
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.350
I had a choice and I chose to be with
00:28:09.360 --> 00:28:13.269
him and raise my kids on my own. And
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:15.029
that's working really beautifully for
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.230
us. And it's part of the reason I think
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.310
just uh released another episode about
00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:23.990
like continuing on a lot of those
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.909
feelings from the honeymoon phase. And I
00:28:25.919 --> 00:28:28.470
think a lot of it the reason why we are
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:31.269
in such a great place despite being
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:35.909
together so long is that we don't blend
00:28:35.919 --> 00:28:38.310
a lot of our responsibilities especially
00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:40.549
the kid responsibilities.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.190
If the allin step bother role isn't the
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.630
only option, what are other options? Let
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.149
me give you a few honest. You could be
00:28:50.159 --> 00:28:53.669
the consistent kind adult who has his
00:28:53.679 --> 00:28:56.310
own relationship with her kids, not as a
00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:59.430
parent, but as himself. You can support
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.870
her parenting without overriding it. You
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.190
can build a life that's deeply connected
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.190
without necessarily living under one
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.149
roof or merging every part of your two
00:29:10.159 --> 00:29:11.909
worlds.
00:29:11.919 --> 00:29:14.710
There's more than one shape a committed
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.590
relationship can take. A Brady Bunch is
00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:20.870
one shape, but it's not the only one,
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.710
and it's not the best one for everyone.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:28.310
And I think that we definitely live in a
00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:30.870
society that judges us for not doing
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.950
that blending.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:38.149
But that is not necessary. That blending
00:29:38.159 --> 00:29:41.669
can cause more harm than good. I live
00:29:41.679 --> 00:29:44.789
right next door to my partner. Rather
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.789
than sharing one home and the autonomy
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.750
within the
00:29:51.760 --> 00:29:54.070
dynamic that we have, we can be very
00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:58.549
close and live very separate lives.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:02.310
uh our relationship is fully secure and
00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:06.630
deeply committed without following a
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.669
standard blueprint that says he has to
00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:12.389
step into a role that he didn't want and
00:30:12.399 --> 00:30:14.789
didn't feel comfortable in.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:17.750
And I think that
00:30:17.760 --> 00:30:21.430
for us it has preserved parts of our
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:23.990
relationship that we really really
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.590
value.
00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:29.669
And the biggest part is that desire.
00:30:29.679 --> 00:30:33.510
We've left enough space open between our
00:30:33.520 --> 00:30:37.430
two lives that we can still maintain a
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.190
very high high level of desire
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.190
because we haven't merged our lives so
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.230
much that there's no room for desire or
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:51.190
mystery or longing.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:53.669
The point of that story
00:30:53.679 --> 00:30:57.029
and my story and sharing it is simple.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.110
There's so much peace in the second half
00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:02.870
of life. And I think it's available to
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.669
all of us, but it really comes from
00:31:05.679 --> 00:31:08.710
assembling this picture
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.830
that everyone expects us to have and
00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:14.389
everyone expects us to
00:31:14.399 --> 00:31:16.710
create. It comes from being really
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.230
honest enough to build the life with
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:24.950
another person that you can live inside.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.710
And that can look whatever way you the
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.590
two of you wanted to.
00:31:31.600 --> 00:31:34.549
So, here's where I'm going to leave you.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:39.190
The man your ex saw and the man your new
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.350
partner sees
00:31:41.360 --> 00:31:44.389
were both shaped by the rooms that they
00:31:44.399 --> 00:31:47.830
were standing in.
00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:50.149
Neither one is the final word on who you
00:31:50.159 --> 00:31:54.789
are. So the work now is not to prove the
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:57.990
good version and bury the bad one. The
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.909
work is to choose your next container
00:32:01.919 --> 00:32:05.029
with your eyes wide open
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:07.350
and honestly
00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:10.310
know which role you can keep. Know which
00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:12.470
roles you want to be in. And then say it
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.549
out loud early
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.909
to her and to yourself before the kids
00:32:17.919 --> 00:32:19.909
are attached, before the resentment has
00:32:19.919 --> 00:32:22.710
anywhere to grow. And we're talking a
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:24.230
lot about kids here, but we could also
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:26.789
be talking about finances. Like be
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.110
honest about where you stand on big
00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:31.509
things like finances,
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:36.630
where you're going to live, children.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:40.070
That one honest conversation had early
00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:42.230
prevents more heartbreak than almost
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.430
anything else that you can do.
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:47.430
Not every good man is meant to be a
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:49.909
stepfather. And that doesn't make you
00:32:49.919 --> 00:32:52.149
less of a man. It makes you an honest
00:32:52.159 --> 00:32:55.830
one. Some men are never meant to be
00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:57.509
monogamous.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.590
Okay, that's fine. Have that
00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:02.389
conversation very early. It could change
00:33:02.399 --> 00:33:06.149
over time in this new relationship, but
00:33:06.159 --> 00:33:09.190
give the woman the option to opt out
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.990
before she's head over heels with you
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.950
and be upfront early. I know lots of my
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.669
friends who are in the dating world
00:33:17.679 --> 00:33:20.149
and myself like early on in the
00:33:20.159 --> 00:33:22.470
relationship a lot of men are coming
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.630
forward and saying I have no interest in
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.470
monogamy
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:28.710
and
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:30.789
then that gives the woman the option to
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:36.389
say okay I'm okay to an open situation
00:33:36.399 --> 00:33:39.990
um it doesn't mean it won't evolve from
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:43.110
non- monogamy to myogamy but it is a big
00:33:43.120 --> 00:33:45.909
trend right now is definitely
00:33:45.919 --> 00:33:50.070
for men to be upfront and saying that
00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:52.230
they don't want that.
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.029
So the honesty, it turns out, is the
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:58.070
whole foundation
00:33:58.080 --> 00:33:59.909
of the kind of relationship that you're
00:33:59.919 --> 00:34:02.070
actually looking for, the one that you
00:34:02.080 --> 00:34:06.870
want when you find the right person. So
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.310
say it like it is and be honest. And if
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.430
you meet a woman who needs you to be a
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:15.349
stepdad,
00:34:15.359 --> 00:34:18.869
then you have decisions to make and she
00:34:18.879 --> 00:34:21.270
has decisions to make. But be honest,
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:24.950
it's a big huge responsibility.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.270
So, if you're in this place, you're
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.190
dating again,
00:34:29.200 --> 00:34:31.430
you're on the other side of the divorce
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.669
or you're going through it, you're
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.710
trying to figure out
00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:39.750
what's going to work for you.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:41.190
This is the kind of work I do with
00:34:41.200 --> 00:34:44.790
people. So, I share a lot of it here so
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.909
people have access to this information.
00:34:47.919 --> 00:34:52.389
And I love providing this kind of
00:34:52.399 --> 00:34:57.589
different lens for men to think through.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.589
>> But if you need a little bit more
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.310
support, all my contact information will
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.990
be in the show notes and we can very
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.630
quietly, privately, without judgment
00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:11.670
have a conversation about what it is
00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:14.790
that you're looking for, what you need.
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.990
Maybe you just need help. kind of like
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:21.349
processing through what it is you're
00:35:21.359 --> 00:35:23.270
willing to live with, what you're what
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.430
it is you're willing you are willing to
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:29.109
live with. So, for now, take care of
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:30.630
yourself.
00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:32.630
Do me a big favor if you got to the end
00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:35.190
of the show today and put in the
00:35:35.200 --> 00:35:36.710
comments something that you would like
00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:39.270
to hear me share and talk about. If
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:40.950
there's an issue or something that
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:42.790
you're working through right now while
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.190
you're going through your divorce and
00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:48.310
you want me to put it through a
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:51.589
therapist lens for men, then I would
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.510
love to do that for you. So, put it in
00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:55.430
the comments.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:56.950
Thank you so much for being here. We'll
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:00.359
see you next time.