speaker-0: Welcome to this episode of Perspective. Now, this episode, if you have ever wondered about screen time for your kids, for yourself, for people you care about, this episode is for you. I'm joined by Jake Ernest. Now, I first came ⁓ to be familiar with Jake's work from his own podcast, which is known as This Is Not Therapy, which I think is such a clever title. We'll make sure to put it in the show notes. And one of the perspectives that he offers is the piece around the power of relationships as it relates to technology use. We have a fascinating conversation about the science, what we're seeing, and how important it is that we are changing the conversation about our screen time, especially for our little ones and even our not so little ones, because of the benefits it has when we reframe the conversation. So The conversation isn't are screens bad for our kids. It's how do we use screens in a way that preserves the relationship? Anyway, I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you for listening, and I hope you find it as helpful and useful as I do. Welcome, Jake. I am thrilled to have you on the show. Thanks for making time for this.
speaker-1: I am just so excited to be here, Robyne. I thank you so much.
speaker-0: ⁓ well, you are my go to source when I'm thinking about the relationship between technology and how we show up for one another. And I would love if you could just let the folks who are listening know a wee bit about you and the work that you do and how we can kind of position our conversation today.
speaker-1: Yeah, that sounds great. My name is Jake Ernst, and I'm a social worker and so ⁓ psychotherapist. I would say that right now there's probably no young person, no family that I'm talking to that doesn't bring up this layer of technology, how it complicates growing up, how it complicates family life, how it complicates just being a person in this world, trying to navigate, be healthy and well. ⁓ and so in my work, I use an acronym called MESH: mental, emotional, and social health. But I do think that in a lot of ways we've lost the plot in terms of our conversation about mental and emotional health because typically it doesn't include the social health layer, which is so important. And I I think that that is our next conversation is a conversation about social health. So right now relationships, friendships, partnerships, that is taking up the core of my work at the moment.
speaker-0: Yeah. And you have an amazing podcast where I first had an opportunity to hear your ideas being shared in that space. And as I shared with you before we hit record, how you approach this topic feels really refreshing because it's such an acknowledgement of the reality that our lives are interconnected, so to speak, with technology. And when we hear people say, like, just don't give it to them or don't let them use it, it it seems as though that approach. approach isn't really useful in the sense that it's not very practical. So when ⁓ you're thinking about these healthy relationships that we can have with technology, can you let us know what does success look like for the relationships and those friendships, those partnerships where there is a place for technology in that conversation?
speaker-1: You know, I I think about sort of this mantra about addiction that I've I've heard before, that is ⁓ addiction is where we give up everything for one thing. And healing and living and being a person is about giving up ⁓ one thing for everything. Yeah. And so in this conversation about technology addiction, I th I come back to that mantra often because I just think about this expectation, maybe this really big expectation that we should give it up. In order to access what we need from each other. I don't think that we have to do that. ⁓ I do think that we've overfocused on screen time. And as far as I'm concerned, parents are already so busy and they don't need another parenting project. But monitoring screen time sometimes becomes that project in parenting that sometimes feels necessary because the health experts have said, you know, the kids have to be offline. And it also is really like playing a game of whack-a-mole. Like it is really hard to get right and really hard for parents to feel like they're doing enough. Yeah. I would say that overall my work, my main approach is like if parents can go to bed at the end of every day when their head hits the pillow, and if they can say to themselves, I've done enough today, then I think that's enough. I really do think that that really should be the more compassionate approach to parenting nowadays because there's always something you could be doing better. And there's always new research or new information that I think parents Can be applying. And so in this sort of sea of social media, information, misinformation, over information, there's just a lot to sort through, right? Almost like we're drinking out of this fire hose of information. And so I think being able to discern and hold nuance and hold many things as true at the same time, that I think is the ultimate skill set for navigating this new emerging way to be human. And so I don't think it's really about giving up all these things. It's about how can I be my best self? How can I feel like I'm doing enough as a person? And how can I also have skills in the real world? And that's where I think we have lost the plot to is that we can do all we want to eliminate technology, but the real work is about skills in the real world.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what I really love about your perspective is the fact that you're holding space for what is, that this is part of our ecosystem, so to speak, now. And also recognizing that there isn't like one definition of what success looks like in terms of every family system, because every family is a wee bit different. And as long at the end of the day, the parent system is feeling like, you know what, I'm good with this. Like this, this feels like I'm comfortable with it. Is something that I, you know, have those guardrails around that we know our little ones as safe as they can be in this big space, then that that's enough. And I just really appreciate that that clarification of the fact that there isn't one solution for everyone. And again, trusting your intuition as the grown up, as the guardian, as the parent to say, you know what, this works for us, and we're not seeing any of those areas which are causing me concern because the skills are still happening. Like we're still seeing that they're able to do other things, not just that piece around the tech. So thank you for clarifying that.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, I I just think about it. This is gonna sound so obvious, but I think about it a lot in my work with families. And I really do sort of practice under this idea that if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Yes. And sometimes we try to sort of pick at things or create problems or we hear health experts say something and we're kind of like, does that apply to me? But if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Right. And so if if you don't have a problem on your hands in terms of, you know kids maybe not going to school or their grades kind of slipping or they're not having a social life that feels really meaningful to them, then it's not a problem. And we don't need to create problems where they don't exist.
speaker-0: I absolutely love this because as a parent myself, and I have as I was saying at the, you know, ours are now 20, 22, and and 18. And all of them had cell phones quite early, right? In terms of their exposure to it. And one of the things when people say, like, ⁓ how did you manage screen time? How did you manage this and that? It was like, I actually really didn't. I I, you know, it was just very fortuitous for us that the kiddos were so busy and engaged and involved in lots of different things that they were able to kind of stick handle it in a way that wasn't a problem. So at the end of the day, when they would come home and you know, even if we jump on a gaming system or if they would, you know, jump on one of the apps to connect with their friends for a wee while it like it wasn't a big deal. And so again, I appreciate that's not the scenario or the case for a lot of families, but I really appreciate you reinforcing that If it's not a problem, like don't make it a problem because there are some individuals or some, you know, adolescents, some early adults who are able to interact in technology and it isn't causing them an area of a deficit or a concern.
speaker-1: Totally. And it it goes back to what you said too. I love how you phrase that. It really is about the stick handling. Yeah. If kids can stick handle it, which of course is a skill that you learn and practice through other experiences outside of technology, then you're good, right? Yeah. It's like that's that's the golden scenario for parents to say, My kids can handle this. And that's how I also think about age of first smartphone or like app ownership. I think about ⁓ let's say the kids who you worry about, maybe managing the relationship or managing their emotions or their thoughts or their stress, those are the kids who we worry about handing Snapchat, right, or handing their smartphone in grade five. Right. And so if all throughout kind of primary school, elementary school, that is the place where they're building these really important scaffolded skills, right? From real world experiences that get them to that place of, ⁓ I know how to stick handle because I've done the drill. Or I've done this in practice, or I've played this game so many times that I know how to do it in when push comes to show.
speaker-0: Yeah. I appreciate all of this and ⁓ thank you for sharing that. Now, what I'm mindful of is I'm sure that there is ⁓ you know, somebody listening right now who says, like, it must be nice, Robyne, that you have these three little unicorns that we're able to stick handle, but we have to like control screen time in a really rigid way because there is like massive meltdowns or there's just a lot of dysregulation if we if we don't. And you know, we we want to give them the opportunity. to learn these skills, develop a healthy relationship with using these tools. However, in our household, it is like nuclear. And we've all seen that where there's little ones that, you know, they're just chomp at the bit, waiting for their screen time. And then you're literally prying it out of their little fingers when it's time. And it feels like we are seeing this addictive pattern where the child engages in the behavior. Afterwards, they're pretty out of sorts. They struggle with after their time or their waiting for it as if it's like their next meal. ⁓ so when we have a little one who is really struggling with self-regulation or impulse control around using those devices, where do we start? ⁓ because I'm a concern right now a lot of folks that I speak to feel like it's like too late. And I try to tell them it's not too late. We can always learn and unlearn behavior. And phone use, screen use is a behavior.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, so let's zoom out so that we can zoom in on the question. When we zoom out, I like to think that relationships are the technology. That means that attachment is very important. The concern here is that some kids are attaching to devices more than they're attaching to school, to friends, to other adults outside of the home. And so we think about that developmental shift that we want to happen from latch to leap. Latch is where within your family, you of course want to maintain those really healthy relationships with each other so that when they take that leap and they go to school, they can unlatch. Yes. What can happen is when we have an over-reliance on one attachment object, whether that's a blanket or a person or a device, whatever it is, we want to be able to get to that place where they can take that leap and do a leap many times. Sometimes what can happen is technology, because it's just so dopamine rich. And in a lot of mobile games or a lot of ⁓ social media applications that have algorithms, there's just more dopamine available in that environment. And so people who and this is common for people who are neurodivergent, who naturally just have a little bit less dopamine in their brain, they're gonna be more dopamine seeking, which means that they're more like more likely to attach to the thing that will provide them with this stable source of pleasure and feeling good. ⁓ We know that that dopamine is also implicated in the role of motivation as well. So we see this maybe the way that changes is we see this look differently for high schoolers than for middle schoolers, let's say. However, we want kids to be able to have an enough practice, right? Taking that leap. And so you're right. Sometimes the tech tantrums get so big and scary that parents want to avoid that. And so they say, okay, fine, I'll acquiesce. And then you can have the extra extra screen time. But we want to just make sure that it's both, right? That kids are given an opportunity to practice real world skills that they're not practicing when they're on their iPad or playing video games, or maybe they get a smartphone too earlier early and they're like up late at night scrolling on TikTok, let's say. Yeah. In any case, we want to just give them both, both experiences of pleasure and having fun, but then also doing the hard things, which is being a person and being a young person at this age.
speaker-0: Yeah, I appreciate that that framing. It makes a it makes a lot of sense. That resonates with me. And I wanna also just hold space that this isn't just our like little toddlers and our teenagers and our young adults. I know grown ups who also experience these types of, you know, even just that, you know, that scrolling behavior. And, you know, I often kind of joke about, you know, we have the best of intentions to go to bed early. And then all of a sudden we we lose ourselves in this like tech vortex for hours and we feel shame afterwards. Like we know it's not good for us yet. It almost feels like this compulsion that we that we can't stop. And so although we're focusing on children and teenagers and young adults, like Grown-ups also are susceptible to that, that dopamine. And I often refer to it as that like dirty digital dopamine that's just super easy to access. And and again, there's no shame in that behavior. It it's designed to hook you. It's designed to bring you in. And I'm curious about when we're thinking about some guardrails and not just like hours on screen time or, you know, boxes where we lock the device away, which makes me a wee bit nervous that people think that I have to lock. this device. And maybe for some that's a tool that's great. I'm looking at more that, you know, when I'm traveling, I'd prefer not to bring us a locked box with me because I can't put my phone down. Right. Like I don't want to be in that position. And so what are some of the other general kind of practices to ensure that the relationship we are using with this technology even as grown ups, that we're doing it in a way that again, we can still have pleasure. And it's fun to send your favorite Mimi to your buddies and and continue that little pebbling behavior. Like that's fun. Where is it that all of a sudden we realize like, ⁓ I'm being kind of doing this behavior, but it it doesn't feel good anymore, Jake. Where do we go from there?
speaker-1: What a big question and such an important question. I mean, I I just think about that attachment piece that we were talking about before. And my my big worry here is that devices are becoming a primary attachment figure for a lot of kids, which replaces mentorship and teachers and friends and parents, right? So who do we turn to when we're struggling? Do we turn to ChatGPT or do we turn to the adults in our lives, the friends in our lives, the ⁓ teachers or the mentors that we have, the coaches. And what I what I again sort of worry about there is that kids are just looking at their phones a lot more than they're looking at each other. ⁓ And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we we don't have really clear research that shows that that's true. But the way I like to think about it is the first seven minutes and the last seven minutes of the day, it turns out it matters a lot. We can use the sleep research to show that. That what you look at for the last seven minutes of the day and the first seven minutes the next morning. Matters a ton. And if we're turning to our phones as the first thing in the morning and the last thing when we go to sleep, that will affect not just our sleep, but how the next day also goes as well. So sleep is a big area of intervention for what I would consider a low hanging fruit ⁓ intervention for for people who want to kind of get this right. But it turns out actually that we can also use a lot of relational strategies as well. That it's not simply just let's say locking our phone in a box or going on a dope. Detox to get some relief here. ⁓ We can use what's already available to us, what already comes to us for free, which is that as a social species, we are designed to connect with other people. And so, yes, these things are designed to be addictive, but we are also designed to connect. And I think part of the reason where that gets really challenging for us is that these platforms or these apps were sold to us as that replacement, as that thing that says, ⁓ you want to connect? Here's how to do it. And so whether it's dating apps or social media apps or even honestly email, ⁓ they just don't connect us in the same way that human connection does. And so I have a formula that I think is really helpful here. I I think about it for adults, I think about it for parents and even for kids. There are four things that we need out of a day. And it's doing something hard, something fun, something for me, and something for others. Yes. And if we can hit those four things. I'm thinking even if we can hit three of them throughout the day, then that sets our brain up for just really good brain power the next day. And so I'm thinking about something hard. That might be something like, I'm gonna call my friend instead of text them, or I'm gonna go knock on their door because they live down the street instead of just texting them to see if they're available. That's something hard. That might be hard because it's new, not because it's wrong. And so we want to get really clear around like, is this uncomfortable or is this dangerous? Right. Oftentimes social media and technology really cause us to confuse those signals where we just sense any discomfort in our bodies or in our minds and we say, Okay, I'm not gonna do it because I'm having some negative thoughts about it or I'm feeling nervous about it. And so we wanna get really good at discerning like, is this hard or is this just uncomfortable? And if it's just uncomfortable, that you can move through that, right? It is gonna be hard, but it's hard again because it's new, not because it's wrong or a bad idea. Yeah. And On the the next thing, I think, you know, doing something fun. I think many kids nowadays have locked themselves into this thing where things have to be as entertaining as the TikTok casino, or they have to be as amazing as what I've seen on YouTube. And so that's where we see many kids going to school in grade one, grade two, grade three, and they're kind of like, I'm bored. Yeah. Right. They're they're not feeling entertained. And so when I work with teachers, I talk about the rise of edutainment and how Teachers now suddenly have this built-in expectation of like I have to be like Bozo the clown sitting at the front of the room to hold kids' attention. Yeah. Just remind parents a as well as teachers that that's not your job. Your job is not to hold a child's attention. That might not actually teach them the skills that you want them ⁓ to learn. And I've actually heard anecdotally, there's a lot of teachers who are shortening their lessons lesson plans because of this. They're not actually teaching for a full length of a period because kids can't focus enough. And so the solution there in my mind isn't to continue shortening lessons. The ⁓ it's to hand over the real project to the the developing mind to say, it's your it's your job to learn how to to pay attention here in this environment if the goal is learning, if the goal is to get to the end, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I think this is just so refreshing and brilliant. So thank you so much for all of these insights and this perspective. The one question that just tops right off that jumps for me is where did they land in the research? And I can go dig deep too, but around that seven minute mark. I find that just so fascinating when there's like a specific number about that morning and that and that nighttime behavior, those seven minutes. Is there a particular like a particular study or is there a particular kind of school of thought why it's seven minutes versus five? We're Ten. What is there anything sweet about the seven minute mark?
speaker-1: They they found that anything less than seven minutes ⁓ didn't make much of a difference. Okay. ⁓ but anything more than seven minutes didn't also make a huge difference. And so it turns out that seven minutes, let's say a little bit more or a little bit less, really is about how the brain is processing its energy throughout the day and at the beginning of the day. And so in order to fall asleep, ⁓ on average it takes about fourteen, fifteen minutes to fall asleep. However There is new interesting studies coming out about how some kids can't fall asleep without devices. Yes. And so it's it's sort of becoming this sort of de facto soother that allows kids to fall asleep in the absence of maybe like a parent that you can talk to or a parent even reading a bedtime story. ⁓ there's really natural ways that we've learned to soothe and to regulate ourselves to fall asleep. ⁓ but in terms of the seven-minute piece, I think if I were to there there's no There's no scientific backing on this claim. It's just a guess. So I just want to preface it with that. But I do think that the seven minutes before or sorry, after we wake up w matter a ton. They just matter a lot. I think about it as the dopamine stores in our brain get deep ⁓ replenished as we sleep. And so if you think about when you wake up and the first thing you do is spend seven minutes to an hour on TikTok or Instagram Reels or YouTube Shorts, essentially what you're doing is you're taking this orange that comes fully formed at the beginning of your day and you're squeezing out all the juice. So you're getting rid of all this dopamine that your brain thinks you're immediately going to work. Yeah. Because that's what dopamine is for is to help with motivation and pursuit. And so then you have to go to school. And so if you've had an hour of iPad time before you go to school, you've already just zapped so much of the dopamine out of your brain that you need to be able to regulate yourself. Yep. To to manage your attention, to be able to ⁓ practice the executive functions that are required to be able to learn and sit and manage yourself at school. And so if there's little low hanging things that you can do, I think it really is about protecting the early hours of the day. Yes the late hours at night.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. I just imagine the amount of parents that are like capping that right now and they're listening to it and like sending it to their teenager to be like, Could you, could you give me seven minutes at the onset? Can we have seven minutes, Dan? It's gonna make a world of difference. And I just also want to hold space with what you said about how we like use screens as that almost like that self-soothing to help us fall asleep. Because I actually remember Ava, our daughter, came up one time and said, ⁓ to me, she's like, I noticed. I've started to have like a show playing on my laptop. It's a show I've already watched. It's familiar. I'm not really paying attention to the show, but it was just, she's like, I just noticed that I like listen to these familiar voices and it's like helping me fall asleep. And I just thought it was so interesting her self-awareness, where she notices, like, ⁓ I don't want to like travel around with reruns of Gray's Anatomy on my phone to like listen to to put me to sleep. And so she she asked me, she's like, Mama, like what's something that I could do to like interrupt that? And and so I shared with her that I'm a huge fan of fiction. Like it's like I want something that I I read every single night before I go bad, doesn't matter where I am in the world. And I said like that gives me this transition. It's like a longer runway from me going from the work, do, hustle, achieve, perform, beta brain waves into this other place. And it was so interesting because the very next day after we we hooked her up with the Kindle, we got her set up for this. And she came down the next morning. She's I stayed up till two in the morning reading. And it's like, sister, welcome to this secret like club. Because when you find the right book at nighttime, you can like stay up because it's so good and juicy and you don't want to put it down. And I said, But how do you feel this morning versus like how'd you would have felt if you stayed up watching shows passively till two in the morning? And she's like, ⁓ my goodness. So we talk about like observing the feeling. Like she's like, Yeah, I'm tired, but I'm like a different kind of tired. Like my brain isn't as mushy. So again, I just love figuring out what works for people and that we can again, it's all behavior and we can we can shift those practices. And I just appreciate that your perspective is offering like really realistic things that we can do, that we don't have to again just, you know. walk it away and don't do it. It's like okay, it's serving a purpose and there's a lot of wiggle room in terms of how we can make it work for ourselves and our families. So I appreciate that for sure.
speaker-1: Totally. It really comes down to this magic word that I've that I've stumbled upon over the last number of years called co regulation. Yes. It really is just the secret sauce of this whole problem. Yeah. And I just think about like you're saying, is it it's very small things that we can do over time. It's not a really big overhaul and you don't have to completely reinvent your parenting practice or even your life. One small action, one tiny adjustment can go such a long way.
speaker-0: I love that. So, what are some of your tips or guidance points about there was, I remember one of your ⁓ one of your podcasts, you were talking about like passive aggressive text messages and emails and things. And I can't even tell you how many times I've talked about that episode. I've shared it with people, Jay, because it's just, it was such a goodie. Because again, speaking about this idea about how we interact with people, and could you share with us some of your kind of go to approaches or ideas when it comes to how we navigate some of these more difficult conversations through text message and and emails and things like that because you just it's it was it you just did such a great job talking about that on your episode we'll make sure to link it in the show notes. But could you tell us a wee bit more about the the passive aggressive text message.
speaker-1: Yeah, okay, so
speaker-0: Sorry, I totally just detoured us. I like literally couldn't even turn on my blinker. I literally just cut a frost blinker.
speaker-1: Like I I I love it. I mean, I yes, I do think about this a lot, just about how technology has changed the way that we communicate. Yeah. I mean, one example I think about is a parent making dinner downstairs, texting their kids upstairs, downstairs to say, time to come up for dinner. I just think about how communication has changed. And I I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I think it's important to be intentional and mindful about when we're using technology to communicate and whether or not we actually need to. And so one example of that is for little kids, how they answer the phone can actually tell us a lot about their development. How they are participating or not participating in a group chat tells us a lot about their development. And so this whole sort of passive aggressive texting thing has sort of come across my desk many, many times through experience ⁓ working with teenagers. Whether that's kids getting into fights over group chats or kids even coming into my office and saying, What should I reply to this person? I don't know what to say. And so I just think about kind of the the the slow communication that can happen over technology, where because there's a space in between what I say and how people respond, we're kind of losing just some really important social muscles, ⁓ like facial expressions and and body cues, all these things that we where we look in real life to see like how did that land for people? And so sometimes our communication over technology can be a lot more aggressive than we actually would ever say it in real life. And there's a term for this, it's called fexting. Fighting over text message. Yes. And so what I usually say to the young people I work with is if there's anything you can take away just from like just basic communication over technology, is to stop vexting. Yes. Talk to the per talk to the person in real life as a starting point and then see where it goes from there. But a lot of kids, even when I just ask them, like, have you thought about talking to them in real life? Yeah. A lot of them will say, No. Yeah. ⁓ have you thought about emailing your or talking to your teacher instead of emailing your teacher? No. And so there's a lot of sort of these invisible barriers that kind of get in our way in order to be able to navigate something that used to be, again, just part of everyday life. We would go up to a random person at a bar and say, Hey, how are you? Or we would go to our teacher and say, Hey, I need this extension on an assignment. Or you would go to the top of the stairs and at least yell downstairs and say, It's time for dinner. Yes. All these different sort of lost ways that we have sort of communicated with each other, I think, collapses into this really passive, aggressive, and sometimes aggressive. Way of communicating with each other.
speaker-0: Yeah, I appreciate that insight so very much. And I think the the the the thread that I really wanted like pull and underline there is that we aren't necessarily having the conversations in real time. And again, I feel like that's one of the pieces that gets so lost is the fact that, you know, and this to me has application far beyond, you know, just you know, texting back and forth with friends. It it it could even involve with like email exchange or, you know, all of these different ways that we're communicating. When we realize that it's not the same as having the conversation at the same time and how that, you know, ⁓ I think exacerbates ⁓ a potential to have a lot of misinterpretations and misapprehensions about how things are going. And if I can just bear with me for a second, I remember a classic example. I remember when I was working at the university, I ⁓ was having a difficult conversation with someone, and I sent them an email and I was kind of highlighting my position, and like all day I was just like. waiting for the response. Right. Like and anytime there was a ping, a notification, like my anxiety spiked, and I was just like all day, I was just totally like in this place of like anticipating this really, you know, this difficult response. And by the end of the day, I was so flustered because they didn't even respond. And I remember being like pretty cheese. That is like, ⁓ I invested all day in managing all these emotions. And then as I was closing the like 15 tabs on my computer, okay, that's I'm minimizing probably 30 tabs on my computer. The email that I wrote and sent actually didn't send. And it was literally sitting on my desktop still. And in that moment, I just realized, you know what, as someone with ADHD, like this just isn't for me. Like this is just literally a form of communication that I just I it's not for me because I will get fixated on it. I'll get hyper focused on it. And And I know the rest of my work in other areas, when I was in that state, it wasn't my best work. I wasn't feeling very good. So I like self-selected out of this type of way of having what I would perceive as difficult conversations because Jake, I didn't even send it. It literally was sitting on my computer, but I invested all of that. And and again, I just just again really hold space about the value of that real time, but also in time. conversation and that there's just so much gray area for misunderstandings.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, I I have two thoughts about that. The first is could you imagine if all the the messages that we send or receive were actually just physical mail? Like I don't think that we would actually want to open that much mail all the time. And so there are so many times throughout my day where I'm like, okay, I'm closed for mail. I'm not receiving any more mail. And I mean it could just be because as a therapist All day I'm receiving information. Like sometimes I'll come home to my partner and be like, okay, I'm done receiving information. I'm done. I'm I'm I've received enough information today. And so part of it too is just that like we're sort of in this information war all the time, like sending things out to the world and then receiving a bunch of stuff back. ⁓ but on the other hand, the other thing that comes to mind too is again just the way that we are so entitled to people's time because of technology. I just think about ⁓ you know, so many times that where we send the text message and we just expect this like immediate reply. I think about some kids who even just text their parents throughout the day at school and just think about like, you know, obviously parents are working and they have things going on throughout the day that don't center around a child. However, many kids, for example, do also spend a lot of time communicating with people, specifically parents, yes. Throughout the day when and they're expecting these sort of immediate replies to the point where Some kids have even gotten creative in using that ping feature in Find My. Yes. Where it will sort of become this like big alert that goes into the phone. So the parents kind of think there's a crisis that's happening. Yeah. And they'll say, Where did you put my lunch? Yes. Where did you put my shoes, my hockey bag? Yeah. So it it becomes this sort of urgency, I think, that also s can get stirred up. And so I think just again being intentional through really small adjustments, something like we'll talk about that when you get home. Or You know, that's that's your job. I don't know. I'm not sure where your hockey bag is. Things like that that just sort of again reset the the the scene for us, I think would be really important.
speaker-0: Yeah. I remember one time as Hudder was at first year university and he called me and and I didn't answer and we talked later in that evening. He goes, What were you doing other than being my mother today? And ⁓ and but he said it in jest. Like it literally was like he's like, What were you possibly doing other than being my mother? And I and again We have a very like I'm very fortunate to have a very strong relationship where we can joke around about that. ⁓ but it was like, how dare you do anything other than be my mom in that moment when I needed you. And ⁓ you know, so again, I really love that piece around even just that expectation setting. And and also to that piece what you said about like that's that's your job or that's yours to figure out. One of the things that I've seen is a lot of families, well intended, they do a ton. For their little ones. And then they all of a sudden go out into the big worlds and parents are exhausted, they're burned out professionally and personally. And then all of a sudden they have these young adults. And then they're like, they're like almost like washing their hands, being like, hey, you're on your own now. And the children haven't had the opportunity to learn the skills, the tools, the habits that's gonna help them kind of work it out. And the stakes are a lot higher when you're a first-year grades or college or university student are out on your own than they are when you're in grade three, right? The stakes usually are much lower.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean I I do think about a lot of the the kids who sort of fit into that failure to launch category. Yes. Of kids getting older and maybe for the first time experiencing rejection or a moment of failure or a moment of self-doubt. And if that's the first place that they're doing that live is by themselves in the real world as as a pseudo adult or as a rookie adult. Yeah. That can be really challenging, right? So I think about just the really important Blueprint of just being a kid and being able to get it wrong and have that landing space of saying it's okay to make ⁓ a mess here. It's okay to have a failure, it's okay to slip up. I'm not gonna remove our relationship off of the table when you mess up. Things like that, I think, give kids a really important foresight, right? To see, I can do this, I can do this on my own. And that goes back to that self-efficacy thing of being able to action our own outcomes on our own behalf. But it it it's it's becoming harder for I think for parents to loosen their reins because of this really quick and fast paced parenting that we've applied.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I I'm mindful of our time, but I feel like I'd be so remiss to ask you this last question if it's okay. Is it okay one more question? Yeah. Okay, perfect. It's give it to me. There you go. One of the things that I hear so often when I'm working with families and groups is that there is this being described as causal relationship between technology and anxiety. And that notion that, you know, this is the most anxious generation of of children, yet it's the most, you know, prosperous. time for so many families, but it seems like our our kiddos are more anxious. And and you know, there's even very, very popular books that c that define this as the this anxious, you know, this anxious generation of of young ones. And to in my perspective is that many things go into contributing. It is not just the device that is is creating this. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are about if somebody's listening and they are navigating a little one who has high levels of anxiety, where where do we even start? Because again, I'm seeing a lot of families thinking that it's it's too late. And and again, I try to reinforce the message and take that it it's not too late. And just your thoughts around this notion of that relationship between the tech use and anxiety and and that being the kind of causal factor.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean there there's a lot of research that is sort of emerging about this. And I I don't know if that's actually the right question. I don't actually know if we need to figure out if technology is creating mental health problems. I'm trying to figure out why we've been asking that question. And I think a lot of it is sort of reminiscent of this n tobacco and nicotine trial that we've kind of been through over the last few decades. Yes. Where we figure had to prove and figure out like it's the cigarettes and it's the tobacco that's ⁓ harmful and kids should not be using it. Yeah. However, I think this is a much more complex problem. And so although the litigation and tobacco litigation is very similar to what we're seeing with social media litigation, because it will result in regulation, I do think it's a bit it's a bigger problem that we need to figure out and a bigger question that we need to ask. And so I don't think it's just, you know, a matter of asking, is technology hurting kids? Because the answer is either yes and or no and. Yeah. And that's because it's different for every single person. It's different based on the app, based on ⁓ the age of use, ⁓ it's different based on how long they're there. And so I like to think about it less about as screen time and more about screen use. It more depends on how kids are actually using their devices. And so one example of that would be I I just become a lot more worried about the kid who's crushing four hours on TikTok than I am with the kid who's spending three to four hours in a group chat with their friends having a good time. Yes. Not all screen use is created the same way, right? And so we have to get really good and really literate at figuring out how are these screens being used and is this the main source of the problem? Because I agree with you, there are so many different layers. And so many different aspects of this problem, which is so multidimensional. And so we think about your question around, you know, a kid who's maybe struggling with some stress and anxiety. I like to think about kids as the thermometer for their family. Yes. And so if we're seeing big emotions, really big behaviors in young kids, that probably is a commentary on the environment or the family system that they're part of. Right. And so using that as sort of a framework, I I actually I was doing a Nike pickleball camp. ⁓ a few weeks ago and they had this like amazing mantra that I just like really hung on to. And so maybe people know it and maybe it's well known in sports, but in any case. ⁓ it's slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Yeah. I was I heard that for the first time and I was like I'm not I'm not not I hadn't been a big sports guy in the past, but I I clung on to that like it was just my life, Robyne. I was like this is this is incredible juicy stuff. And I do think that also applies here to parenting. Which is that any opportunity to slow things down, whether that's at home or in our rush to get to school or, you know, in figuring out how to finish homework, anytime you can add slow and make things a bit more smooth. I do think that helping kids find their smooth creates those grooves, right? That helps them find their pace and the correct pace for them. And oftentimes we think that efficiency and a faster pace is what we're after. But being able to slow things down, I think is really what it's made of.
speaker-0: Beautifully said. I love that, Jake. And just for for what it's worth, ⁓ it's so amazing because that expression, that idea that smooth, you know, slow is smooth and smooth is fast in the right direction, ⁓ it actually is ⁓ it's actually from the from Navy SEALs. It's a concept that was first introduced to me by Commander Mark Devine. And and he talks about the idea that when things get really kind of chaotic and noisy. That it's so important that they like slow right down, they slow their heart rate down, they slow their breathing, they focus on their three feet world. And then that way they can get fluid, like they can be fluid in the right direction of they understand where they need to focus and what they need to put their attention on. And I remember when, you know, when Commander Divine was explaining this to me, I was just like so enthralled with how it was like both physiological but also psychological that it allows us to like regain focus. ⁓ so I love that Nike Pickleball is ⁓ is adopting practices of ⁓ the Navy SEALs, which we know are very well tested. ⁓ so, Jake, this is so refreshing and it's so appreciated. And just how you're talking about such a big, big idea and concept and sharing it in these manageable integrated ways that we can think about this in our own households. I do just want to say thank you so much. for this work that you are doing. And ⁓ I also know you happen to have a book on the horizon coming out in early twenty twenty seven. Can you take a moment just to tell us a wee bit about that so we can get those pre-order numbers rolling for ya.
speaker-1: Yes. Thank you, Robyne, for having me and for helping me send this message far and wide. My book, Connection Crash, releases on January 12th, 2027. It's being released in the US with Hachette and in Canada with HarperCollins. And so people can go ahead and pre-order that now. It's really a book about all the things we've been talking about, is how we can recenter our focus to rebuild the relationship skills that we lost technology. And first and foremost, it's really just a reminder that relationships are the technology and we can't lose sight of that. And so I think about just this example of like parents really focusing on screen time. If your relationship with your kids is not intact by the time they maybe move away to go to school or move of your house, then we've really lost the plot. Yeah. We we shouldn't care about screens and technology more than we care about the relationship. And we want to preserve that relational health at all costs. So that's what it's about.
speaker-0: Well said, my friend. Well, thank you. Thank you. We'll be sure to share that information in the show notes. And we will make sure to share your information where people could hear more about the good work that you are doing and tune in and listen to your podcast as well. So, Jake, thank you very much for this. And I continue, I I wish you continued success in this important conversation. So thank you for your time.
speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
speaker-0: Thank you for listening to this episode of Perspective. It means the world to me that you spent time listening to this idea, these conversations. Now, if you have found something useful or helpful, please share it with someone else. Something that I know it means the world to me to know when something has landed and then you pay it forward. Another way you can support the podcast is to rate and review this podcast wherever you listen. to podcasts. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for listening. I appreciate you and I look forward to connecting again very soon.
speaker-1: I am just so excited to be here, Robyne. I thank you so much.
speaker-0: ⁓ well, you are my go to source when I'm thinking about the relationship between technology and how we show up for one another. And I would love if you could just let the folks who are listening know a wee bit about you and the work that you do and how we can kind of position our conversation today.
speaker-1: Yeah, that sounds great. My name is Jake Ernst, and I'm a social worker and so ⁓ psychotherapist. I would say that right now there's probably no young person, no family that I'm talking to that doesn't bring up this layer of technology, how it complicates growing up, how it complicates family life, how it complicates just being a person in this world, trying to navigate, be healthy and well. ⁓ and so in my work, I use an acronym called MESH: mental, emotional, and social health. But I do think that in a lot of ways we've lost the plot in terms of our conversation about mental and emotional health because typically it doesn't include the social health layer, which is so important. And I I think that that is our next conversation is a conversation about social health. So right now relationships, friendships, partnerships, that is taking up the core of my work at the moment.
speaker-0: Yeah. And you have an amazing podcast where I first had an opportunity to hear your ideas being shared in that space. And as I shared with you before we hit record, how you approach this topic feels really refreshing because it's such an acknowledgement of the reality that our lives are interconnected, so to speak, with technology. And when we hear people say, like, just don't give it to them or don't let them use it, it it seems as though that approach. approach isn't really useful in the sense that it's not very practical. So when ⁓ you're thinking about these healthy relationships that we can have with technology, can you let us know what does success look like for the relationships and those friendships, those partnerships where there is a place for technology in that conversation?
speaker-1: You know, I I think about sort of this mantra about addiction that I've I've heard before, that is ⁓ addiction is where we give up everything for one thing. And healing and living and being a person is about giving up ⁓ one thing for everything. Yeah. And so in this conversation about technology addiction, I th I come back to that mantra often because I just think about this expectation, maybe this really big expectation that we should give it up. In order to access what we need from each other. I don't think that we have to do that. ⁓ I do think that we've overfocused on screen time. And as far as I'm concerned, parents are already so busy and they don't need another parenting project. But monitoring screen time sometimes becomes that project in parenting that sometimes feels necessary because the health experts have said, you know, the kids have to be offline. And it also is really like playing a game of whack-a-mole. Like it is really hard to get right and really hard for parents to feel like they're doing enough. Yeah. I would say that overall my work, my main approach is like if parents can go to bed at the end of every day when their head hits the pillow, and if they can say to themselves, I've done enough today, then I think that's enough. I really do think that that really should be the more compassionate approach to parenting nowadays because there's always something you could be doing better. And there's always new research or new information that I think parents Can be applying. And so in this sort of sea of social media, information, misinformation, over information, there's just a lot to sort through, right? Almost like we're drinking out of this fire hose of information. And so I think being able to discern and hold nuance and hold many things as true at the same time, that I think is the ultimate skill set for navigating this new emerging way to be human. And so I don't think it's really about giving up all these things. It's about how can I be my best self? How can I feel like I'm doing enough as a person? And how can I also have skills in the real world? And that's where I think we have lost the plot to is that we can do all we want to eliminate technology, but the real work is about skills in the real world.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what I really love about your perspective is the fact that you're holding space for what is, that this is part of our ecosystem, so to speak, now. And also recognizing that there isn't like one definition of what success looks like in terms of every family system, because every family is a wee bit different. And as long at the end of the day, the parent system is feeling like, you know what, I'm good with this. Like this, this feels like I'm comfortable with it. Is something that I, you know, have those guardrails around that we know our little ones as safe as they can be in this big space, then that that's enough. And I just really appreciate that that clarification of the fact that there isn't one solution for everyone. And again, trusting your intuition as the grown up, as the guardian, as the parent to say, you know what, this works for us, and we're not seeing any of those areas which are causing me concern because the skills are still happening. Like we're still seeing that they're able to do other things, not just that piece around the tech. So thank you for clarifying that.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, I I just think about it. This is gonna sound so obvious, but I think about it a lot in my work with families. And I really do sort of practice under this idea that if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Yes. And sometimes we try to sort of pick at things or create problems or we hear health experts say something and we're kind of like, does that apply to me? But if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Right. And so if if you don't have a problem on your hands in terms of, you know kids maybe not going to school or their grades kind of slipping or they're not having a social life that feels really meaningful to them, then it's not a problem. And we don't need to create problems where they don't exist.
speaker-0: I absolutely love this because as a parent myself, and I have as I was saying at the, you know, ours are now 20, 22, and and 18. And all of them had cell phones quite early, right? In terms of their exposure to it. And one of the things when people say, like, ⁓ how did you manage screen time? How did you manage this and that? It was like, I actually really didn't. I I, you know, it was just very fortuitous for us that the kiddos were so busy and engaged and involved in lots of different things that they were able to kind of stick handle it in a way that wasn't a problem. So at the end of the day, when they would come home and you know, even if we jump on a gaming system or if they would, you know, jump on one of the apps to connect with their friends for a wee while it like it wasn't a big deal. And so again, I appreciate that's not the scenario or the case for a lot of families, but I really appreciate you reinforcing that If it's not a problem, like don't make it a problem because there are some individuals or some, you know, adolescents, some early adults who are able to interact in technology and it isn't causing them an area of a deficit or a concern.
speaker-1: Totally. And it it goes back to what you said too. I love how you phrase that. It really is about the stick handling. Yeah. If kids can stick handle it, which of course is a skill that you learn and practice through other experiences outside of technology, then you're good, right? Yeah. It's like that's that's the golden scenario for parents to say, My kids can handle this. And that's how I also think about age of first smartphone or like app ownership. I think about ⁓ let's say the kids who you worry about, maybe managing the relationship or managing their emotions or their thoughts or their stress, those are the kids who we worry about handing Snapchat, right, or handing their smartphone in grade five. Right. And so if all throughout kind of primary school, elementary school, that is the place where they're building these really important scaffolded skills, right? From real world experiences that get them to that place of, ⁓ I know how to stick handle because I've done the drill. Or I've done this in practice, or I've played this game so many times that I know how to do it in when push comes to show.
speaker-0: Yeah. I appreciate all of this and ⁓ thank you for sharing that. Now, what I'm mindful of is I'm sure that there is ⁓ you know, somebody listening right now who says, like, it must be nice, Robyne, that you have these three little unicorns that we're able to stick handle, but we have to like control screen time in a really rigid way because there is like massive meltdowns or there's just a lot of dysregulation if we if we don't. And you know, we we want to give them the opportunity. to learn these skills, develop a healthy relationship with using these tools. However, in our household, it is like nuclear. And we've all seen that where there's little ones that, you know, they're just chomp at the bit, waiting for their screen time. And then you're literally prying it out of their little fingers when it's time. And it feels like we are seeing this addictive pattern where the child engages in the behavior. Afterwards, they're pretty out of sorts. They struggle with after their time or their waiting for it as if it's like their next meal. ⁓ so when we have a little one who is really struggling with self-regulation or impulse control around using those devices, where do we start? ⁓ because I'm a concern right now a lot of folks that I speak to feel like it's like too late. And I try to tell them it's not too late. We can always learn and unlearn behavior. And phone use, screen use is a behavior.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, so let's zoom out so that we can zoom in on the question. When we zoom out, I like to think that relationships are the technology. That means that attachment is very important. The concern here is that some kids are attaching to devices more than they're attaching to school, to friends, to other adults outside of the home. And so we think about that developmental shift that we want to happen from latch to leap. Latch is where within your family, you of course want to maintain those really healthy relationships with each other so that when they take that leap and they go to school, they can unlatch. Yes. What can happen is when we have an over-reliance on one attachment object, whether that's a blanket or a person or a device, whatever it is, we want to be able to get to that place where they can take that leap and do a leap many times. Sometimes what can happen is technology, because it's just so dopamine rich. And in a lot of mobile games or a lot of ⁓ social media applications that have algorithms, there's just more dopamine available in that environment. And so people who and this is common for people who are neurodivergent, who naturally just have a little bit less dopamine in their brain, they're gonna be more dopamine seeking, which means that they're more like more likely to attach to the thing that will provide them with this stable source of pleasure and feeling good. ⁓ We know that that dopamine is also implicated in the role of motivation as well. So we see this maybe the way that changes is we see this look differently for high schoolers than for middle schoolers, let's say. However, we want kids to be able to have an enough practice, right? Taking that leap. And so you're right. Sometimes the tech tantrums get so big and scary that parents want to avoid that. And so they say, okay, fine, I'll acquiesce. And then you can have the extra extra screen time. But we want to just make sure that it's both, right? That kids are given an opportunity to practice real world skills that they're not practicing when they're on their iPad or playing video games, or maybe they get a smartphone too earlier early and they're like up late at night scrolling on TikTok, let's say. Yeah. In any case, we want to just give them both, both experiences of pleasure and having fun, but then also doing the hard things, which is being a person and being a young person at this age.
speaker-0: Yeah, I appreciate that that framing. It makes a it makes a lot of sense. That resonates with me. And I wanna also just hold space that this isn't just our like little toddlers and our teenagers and our young adults. I know grown ups who also experience these types of, you know, even just that, you know, that scrolling behavior. And, you know, I often kind of joke about, you know, we have the best of intentions to go to bed early. And then all of a sudden we we lose ourselves in this like tech vortex for hours and we feel shame afterwards. Like we know it's not good for us yet. It almost feels like this compulsion that we that we can't stop. And so although we're focusing on children and teenagers and young adults, like Grown-ups also are susceptible to that, that dopamine. And I often refer to it as that like dirty digital dopamine that's just super easy to access. And and again, there's no shame in that behavior. It it's designed to hook you. It's designed to bring you in. And I'm curious about when we're thinking about some guardrails and not just like hours on screen time or, you know, boxes where we lock the device away, which makes me a wee bit nervous that people think that I have to lock. this device. And maybe for some that's a tool that's great. I'm looking at more that, you know, when I'm traveling, I'd prefer not to bring us a locked box with me because I can't put my phone down. Right. Like I don't want to be in that position. And so what are some of the other general kind of practices to ensure that the relationship we are using with this technology even as grown ups, that we're doing it in a way that again, we can still have pleasure. And it's fun to send your favorite Mimi to your buddies and and continue that little pebbling behavior. Like that's fun. Where is it that all of a sudden we realize like, ⁓ I'm being kind of doing this behavior, but it it doesn't feel good anymore, Jake. Where do we go from there?
speaker-1: What a big question and such an important question. I mean, I I just think about that attachment piece that we were talking about before. And my my big worry here is that devices are becoming a primary attachment figure for a lot of kids, which replaces mentorship and teachers and friends and parents, right? So who do we turn to when we're struggling? Do we turn to ChatGPT or do we turn to the adults in our lives, the friends in our lives, the ⁓ teachers or the mentors that we have, the coaches. And what I what I again sort of worry about there is that kids are just looking at their phones a lot more than they're looking at each other. ⁓ And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we we don't have really clear research that shows that that's true. But the way I like to think about it is the first seven minutes and the last seven minutes of the day, it turns out it matters a lot. We can use the sleep research to show that. That what you look at for the last seven minutes of the day and the first seven minutes the next morning. Matters a ton. And if we're turning to our phones as the first thing in the morning and the last thing when we go to sleep, that will affect not just our sleep, but how the next day also goes as well. So sleep is a big area of intervention for what I would consider a low hanging fruit ⁓ intervention for for people who want to kind of get this right. But it turns out actually that we can also use a lot of relational strategies as well. That it's not simply just let's say locking our phone in a box or going on a dope. Detox to get some relief here. ⁓ We can use what's already available to us, what already comes to us for free, which is that as a social species, we are designed to connect with other people. And so, yes, these things are designed to be addictive, but we are also designed to connect. And I think part of the reason where that gets really challenging for us is that these platforms or these apps were sold to us as that replacement, as that thing that says, ⁓ you want to connect? Here's how to do it. And so whether it's dating apps or social media apps or even honestly email, ⁓ they just don't connect us in the same way that human connection does. And so I have a formula that I think is really helpful here. I I think about it for adults, I think about it for parents and even for kids. There are four things that we need out of a day. And it's doing something hard, something fun, something for me, and something for others. Yes. And if we can hit those four things. I'm thinking even if we can hit three of them throughout the day, then that sets our brain up for just really good brain power the next day. And so I'm thinking about something hard. That might be something like, I'm gonna call my friend instead of text them, or I'm gonna go knock on their door because they live down the street instead of just texting them to see if they're available. That's something hard. That might be hard because it's new, not because it's wrong. And so we want to get really clear around like, is this uncomfortable or is this dangerous? Right. Oftentimes social media and technology really cause us to confuse those signals where we just sense any discomfort in our bodies or in our minds and we say, Okay, I'm not gonna do it because I'm having some negative thoughts about it or I'm feeling nervous about it. And so we wanna get really good at discerning like, is this hard or is this just uncomfortable? And if it's just uncomfortable, that you can move through that, right? It is gonna be hard, but it's hard again because it's new, not because it's wrong or a bad idea. Yeah. And On the the next thing, I think, you know, doing something fun. I think many kids nowadays have locked themselves into this thing where things have to be as entertaining as the TikTok casino, or they have to be as amazing as what I've seen on YouTube. And so that's where we see many kids going to school in grade one, grade two, grade three, and they're kind of like, I'm bored. Yeah. Right. They're they're not feeling entertained. And so when I work with teachers, I talk about the rise of edutainment and how Teachers now suddenly have this built-in expectation of like I have to be like Bozo the clown sitting at the front of the room to hold kids' attention. Yeah. Just remind parents a as well as teachers that that's not your job. Your job is not to hold a child's attention. That might not actually teach them the skills that you want them ⁓ to learn. And I've actually heard anecdotally, there's a lot of teachers who are shortening their lessons lesson plans because of this. They're not actually teaching for a full length of a period because kids can't focus enough. And so the solution there in my mind isn't to continue shortening lessons. The ⁓ it's to hand over the real project to the the developing mind to say, it's your it's your job to learn how to to pay attention here in this environment if the goal is learning, if the goal is to get to the end, right?
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ I think this is just so refreshing and brilliant. So thank you so much for all of these insights and this perspective. The one question that just tops right off that jumps for me is where did they land in the research? And I can go dig deep too, but around that seven minute mark. I find that just so fascinating when there's like a specific number about that morning and that and that nighttime behavior, those seven minutes. Is there a particular like a particular study or is there a particular kind of school of thought why it's seven minutes versus five? We're Ten. What is there anything sweet about the seven minute mark?
speaker-1: They they found that anything less than seven minutes ⁓ didn't make much of a difference. Okay. ⁓ but anything more than seven minutes didn't also make a huge difference. And so it turns out that seven minutes, let's say a little bit more or a little bit less, really is about how the brain is processing its energy throughout the day and at the beginning of the day. And so in order to fall asleep, ⁓ on average it takes about fourteen, fifteen minutes to fall asleep. However There is new interesting studies coming out about how some kids can't fall asleep without devices. Yes. And so it's it's sort of becoming this sort of de facto soother that allows kids to fall asleep in the absence of maybe like a parent that you can talk to or a parent even reading a bedtime story. ⁓ there's really natural ways that we've learned to soothe and to regulate ourselves to fall asleep. ⁓ but in terms of the seven-minute piece, I think if I were to there there's no There's no scientific backing on this claim. It's just a guess. So I just want to preface it with that. But I do think that the seven minutes before or sorry, after we wake up w matter a ton. They just matter a lot. I think about it as the dopamine stores in our brain get deep ⁓ replenished as we sleep. And so if you think about when you wake up and the first thing you do is spend seven minutes to an hour on TikTok or Instagram Reels or YouTube Shorts, essentially what you're doing is you're taking this orange that comes fully formed at the beginning of your day and you're squeezing out all the juice. So you're getting rid of all this dopamine that your brain thinks you're immediately going to work. Yeah. Because that's what dopamine is for is to help with motivation and pursuit. And so then you have to go to school. And so if you've had an hour of iPad time before you go to school, you've already just zapped so much of the dopamine out of your brain that you need to be able to regulate yourself. Yep. To to manage your attention, to be able to ⁓ practice the executive functions that are required to be able to learn and sit and manage yourself at school. And so if there's little low hanging things that you can do, I think it really is about protecting the early hours of the day. Yes the late hours at night.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. I just imagine the amount of parents that are like capping that right now and they're listening to it and like sending it to their teenager to be like, Could you, could you give me seven minutes at the onset? Can we have seven minutes, Dan? It's gonna make a world of difference. And I just also want to hold space with what you said about how we like use screens as that almost like that self-soothing to help us fall asleep. Because I actually remember Ava, our daughter, came up one time and said, ⁓ to me, she's like, I noticed. I've started to have like a show playing on my laptop. It's a show I've already watched. It's familiar. I'm not really paying attention to the show, but it was just, she's like, I just noticed that I like listen to these familiar voices and it's like helping me fall asleep. And I just thought it was so interesting her self-awareness, where she notices, like, ⁓ I don't want to like travel around with reruns of Gray's Anatomy on my phone to like listen to to put me to sleep. And so she she asked me, she's like, Mama, like what's something that I could do to like interrupt that? And and so I shared with her that I'm a huge fan of fiction. Like it's like I want something that I I read every single night before I go bad, doesn't matter where I am in the world. And I said like that gives me this transition. It's like a longer runway from me going from the work, do, hustle, achieve, perform, beta brain waves into this other place. And it was so interesting because the very next day after we we hooked her up with the Kindle, we got her set up for this. And she came down the next morning. She's I stayed up till two in the morning reading. And it's like, sister, welcome to this secret like club. Because when you find the right book at nighttime, you can like stay up because it's so good and juicy and you don't want to put it down. And I said, But how do you feel this morning versus like how'd you would have felt if you stayed up watching shows passively till two in the morning? And she's like, ⁓ my goodness. So we talk about like observing the feeling. Like she's like, Yeah, I'm tired, but I'm like a different kind of tired. Like my brain isn't as mushy. So again, I just love figuring out what works for people and that we can again, it's all behavior and we can we can shift those practices. And I just appreciate that your perspective is offering like really realistic things that we can do, that we don't have to again just, you know. walk it away and don't do it. It's like okay, it's serving a purpose and there's a lot of wiggle room in terms of how we can make it work for ourselves and our families. So I appreciate that for sure.
speaker-1: Totally. It really comes down to this magic word that I've that I've stumbled upon over the last number of years called co regulation. Yes. It really is just the secret sauce of this whole problem. Yeah. And I just think about like you're saying, is it it's very small things that we can do over time. It's not a really big overhaul and you don't have to completely reinvent your parenting practice or even your life. One small action, one tiny adjustment can go such a long way.
speaker-0: I love that. So, what are some of your tips or guidance points about there was, I remember one of your ⁓ one of your podcasts, you were talking about like passive aggressive text messages and emails and things. And I can't even tell you how many times I've talked about that episode. I've shared it with people, Jay, because it's just, it was such a goodie. Because again, speaking about this idea about how we interact with people, and could you share with us some of your kind of go to approaches or ideas when it comes to how we navigate some of these more difficult conversations through text message and and emails and things like that because you just it's it was it you just did such a great job talking about that on your episode we'll make sure to link it in the show notes. But could you tell us a wee bit more about the the passive aggressive text message.
speaker-1: Yeah, okay, so
speaker-0: Sorry, I totally just detoured us. I like literally couldn't even turn on my blinker. I literally just cut a frost blinker.
speaker-1: Like I I I love it. I mean, I yes, I do think about this a lot, just about how technology has changed the way that we communicate. Yeah. I mean, one example I think about is a parent making dinner downstairs, texting their kids upstairs, downstairs to say, time to come up for dinner. I just think about how communication has changed. And I I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I think it's important to be intentional and mindful about when we're using technology to communicate and whether or not we actually need to. And so one example of that is for little kids, how they answer the phone can actually tell us a lot about their development. How they are participating or not participating in a group chat tells us a lot about their development. And so this whole sort of passive aggressive texting thing has sort of come across my desk many, many times through experience ⁓ working with teenagers. Whether that's kids getting into fights over group chats or kids even coming into my office and saying, What should I reply to this person? I don't know what to say. And so I just think about kind of the the the slow communication that can happen over technology, where because there's a space in between what I say and how people respond, we're kind of losing just some really important social muscles, ⁓ like facial expressions and and body cues, all these things that we where we look in real life to see like how did that land for people? And so sometimes our communication over technology can be a lot more aggressive than we actually would ever say it in real life. And there's a term for this, it's called fexting. Fighting over text message. Yes. And so what I usually say to the young people I work with is if there's anything you can take away just from like just basic communication over technology, is to stop vexting. Yes. Talk to the per talk to the person in real life as a starting point and then see where it goes from there. But a lot of kids, even when I just ask them, like, have you thought about talking to them in real life? Yeah. A lot of them will say, No. Yeah. ⁓ have you thought about emailing your or talking to your teacher instead of emailing your teacher? No. And so there's a lot of sort of these invisible barriers that kind of get in our way in order to be able to navigate something that used to be, again, just part of everyday life. We would go up to a random person at a bar and say, Hey, how are you? Or we would go to our teacher and say, Hey, I need this extension on an assignment. Or you would go to the top of the stairs and at least yell downstairs and say, It's time for dinner. Yes. All these different sort of lost ways that we have sort of communicated with each other, I think, collapses into this really passive, aggressive, and sometimes aggressive. Way of communicating with each other.
speaker-0: Yeah, I appreciate that insight so very much. And I think the the the the thread that I really wanted like pull and underline there is that we aren't necessarily having the conversations in real time. And again, I feel like that's one of the pieces that gets so lost is the fact that, you know, and this to me has application far beyond, you know, just you know, texting back and forth with friends. It it it could even involve with like email exchange or, you know, all of these different ways that we're communicating. When we realize that it's not the same as having the conversation at the same time and how that, you know, ⁓ I think exacerbates ⁓ a potential to have a lot of misinterpretations and misapprehensions about how things are going. And if I can just bear with me for a second, I remember a classic example. I remember when I was working at the university, I ⁓ was having a difficult conversation with someone, and I sent them an email and I was kind of highlighting my position, and like all day I was just like. waiting for the response. Right. Like and anytime there was a ping, a notification, like my anxiety spiked, and I was just like all day, I was just totally like in this place of like anticipating this really, you know, this difficult response. And by the end of the day, I was so flustered because they didn't even respond. And I remember being like pretty cheese. That is like, ⁓ I invested all day in managing all these emotions. And then as I was closing the like 15 tabs on my computer, okay, that's I'm minimizing probably 30 tabs on my computer. The email that I wrote and sent actually didn't send. And it was literally sitting on my desktop still. And in that moment, I just realized, you know what, as someone with ADHD, like this just isn't for me. Like this is just literally a form of communication that I just I it's not for me because I will get fixated on it. I'll get hyper focused on it. And And I know the rest of my work in other areas, when I was in that state, it wasn't my best work. I wasn't feeling very good. So I like self-selected out of this type of way of having what I would perceive as difficult conversations because Jake, I didn't even send it. It literally was sitting on my computer, but I invested all of that. And and again, I just just again really hold space about the value of that real time, but also in time. conversation and that there's just so much gray area for misunderstandings.
speaker-1: Totally. I mean, I I have two thoughts about that. The first is could you imagine if all the the messages that we send or receive were actually just physical mail? Like I don't think that we would actually want to open that much mail all the time. And so there are so many times throughout my day where I'm like, okay, I'm closed for mail. I'm not receiving any more mail. And I mean it could just be because as a therapist All day I'm receiving information. Like sometimes I'll come home to my partner and be like, okay, I'm done receiving information. I'm done. I'm I'm I've received enough information today. And so part of it too is just that like we're sort of in this information war all the time, like sending things out to the world and then receiving a bunch of stuff back. ⁓ but on the other hand, the other thing that comes to mind too is again just the way that we are so entitled to people's time because of technology. I just think about ⁓ you know, so many times that where we send the text message and we just expect this like immediate reply. I think about some kids who even just text their parents throughout the day at school and just think about like, you know, obviously parents are working and they have things going on throughout the day that don't center around a child. However, many kids, for example, do also spend a lot of time communicating with people, specifically parents, yes. Throughout the day when and they're expecting these sort of immediate replies to the point where Some kids have even gotten creative in using that ping feature in Find My. Yes. Where it will sort of become this like big alert that goes into the phone. So the parents kind of think there's a crisis that's happening. Yeah. And they'll say, Where did you put my lunch? Yes. Where did you put my shoes, my hockey bag? Yeah. So it it becomes this sort of urgency, I think, that also s can get stirred up. And so I think just again being intentional through really small adjustments, something like we'll talk about that when you get home. Or You know, that's that's your job. I don't know. I'm not sure where your hockey bag is. Things like that that just sort of again reset the the the scene for us, I think would be really important.
speaker-0: Yeah. I remember one time as Hudder was at first year university and he called me and and I didn't answer and we talked later in that evening. He goes, What were you doing other than being my mother today? And ⁓ and but he said it in jest. Like it literally was like he's like, What were you possibly doing other than being my mother? And I and again We have a very like I'm very fortunate to have a very strong relationship where we can joke around about that. ⁓ but it was like, how dare you do anything other than be my mom in that moment when I needed you. And ⁓ you know, so again, I really love that piece around even just that expectation setting. And and also to that piece what you said about like that's that's your job or that's yours to figure out. One of the things that I've seen is a lot of families, well intended, they do a ton. For their little ones. And then they all of a sudden go out into the big worlds and parents are exhausted, they're burned out professionally and personally. And then all of a sudden they have these young adults. And then they're like, they're like almost like washing their hands, being like, hey, you're on your own now. And the children haven't had the opportunity to learn the skills, the tools, the habits that's gonna help them kind of work it out. And the stakes are a lot higher when you're a first-year grades or college or university student are out on your own than they are when you're in grade three, right? The stakes usually are much lower.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean I I do think about a lot of the the kids who sort of fit into that failure to launch category. Yes. Of kids getting older and maybe for the first time experiencing rejection or a moment of failure or a moment of self-doubt. And if that's the first place that they're doing that live is by themselves in the real world as as a pseudo adult or as a rookie adult. Yeah. That can be really challenging, right? So I think about just the really important Blueprint of just being a kid and being able to get it wrong and have that landing space of saying it's okay to make ⁓ a mess here. It's okay to have a failure, it's okay to slip up. I'm not gonna remove our relationship off of the table when you mess up. Things like that, I think, give kids a really important foresight, right? To see, I can do this, I can do this on my own. And that goes back to that self-efficacy thing of being able to action our own outcomes on our own behalf. But it it it's it's becoming harder for I think for parents to loosen their reins because of this really quick and fast paced parenting that we've applied.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I I'm mindful of our time, but I feel like I'd be so remiss to ask you this last question if it's okay. Is it okay one more question? Yeah. Okay, perfect. It's give it to me. There you go. One of the things that I hear so often when I'm working with families and groups is that there is this being described as causal relationship between technology and anxiety. And that notion that, you know, this is the most anxious generation of of children, yet it's the most, you know, prosperous. time for so many families, but it seems like our our kiddos are more anxious. And and you know, there's even very, very popular books that c that define this as the this anxious, you know, this anxious generation of of young ones. And to in my perspective is that many things go into contributing. It is not just the device that is is creating this. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are about if somebody's listening and they are navigating a little one who has high levels of anxiety, where where do we even start? Because again, I'm seeing a lot of families thinking that it's it's too late. And and again, I try to reinforce the message and take that it it's not too late. And just your thoughts around this notion of that relationship between the tech use and anxiety and and that being the kind of causal factor.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean there there's a lot of research that is sort of emerging about this. And I I don't know if that's actually the right question. I don't actually know if we need to figure out if technology is creating mental health problems. I'm trying to figure out why we've been asking that question. And I think a lot of it is sort of reminiscent of this n tobacco and nicotine trial that we've kind of been through over the last few decades. Yes. Where we figure had to prove and figure out like it's the cigarettes and it's the tobacco that's ⁓ harmful and kids should not be using it. Yeah. However, I think this is a much more complex problem. And so although the litigation and tobacco litigation is very similar to what we're seeing with social media litigation, because it will result in regulation, I do think it's a bit it's a bigger problem that we need to figure out and a bigger question that we need to ask. And so I don't think it's just, you know, a matter of asking, is technology hurting kids? Because the answer is either yes and or no and. Yeah. And that's because it's different for every single person. It's different based on the app, based on ⁓ the age of use, ⁓ it's different based on how long they're there. And so I like to think about it less about as screen time and more about screen use. It more depends on how kids are actually using their devices. And so one example of that would be I I just become a lot more worried about the kid who's crushing four hours on TikTok than I am with the kid who's spending three to four hours in a group chat with their friends having a good time. Yes. Not all screen use is created the same way, right? And so we have to get really good and really literate at figuring out how are these screens being used and is this the main source of the problem? Because I agree with you, there are so many different layers. And so many different aspects of this problem, which is so multidimensional. And so we think about your question around, you know, a kid who's maybe struggling with some stress and anxiety. I like to think about kids as the thermometer for their family. Yes. And so if we're seeing big emotions, really big behaviors in young kids, that probably is a commentary on the environment or the family system that they're part of. Right. And so using that as sort of a framework, I I actually I was doing a Nike pickleball camp. ⁓ a few weeks ago and they had this like amazing mantra that I just like really hung on to. And so maybe people know it and maybe it's well known in sports, but in any case. ⁓ it's slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Yeah. I was I heard that for the first time and I was like I'm not I'm not not I hadn't been a big sports guy in the past, but I I clung on to that like it was just my life, Robyne. I was like this is this is incredible juicy stuff. And I do think that also applies here to parenting. Which is that any opportunity to slow things down, whether that's at home or in our rush to get to school or, you know, in figuring out how to finish homework, anytime you can add slow and make things a bit more smooth. I do think that helping kids find their smooth creates those grooves, right? That helps them find their pace and the correct pace for them. And oftentimes we think that efficiency and a faster pace is what we're after. But being able to slow things down, I think is really what it's made of.
speaker-0: Beautifully said. I love that, Jake. And just for for what it's worth, ⁓ it's so amazing because that expression, that idea that smooth, you know, slow is smooth and smooth is fast in the right direction, ⁓ it actually is ⁓ it's actually from the from Navy SEALs. It's a concept that was first introduced to me by Commander Mark Devine. And and he talks about the idea that when things get really kind of chaotic and noisy. That it's so important that they like slow right down, they slow their heart rate down, they slow their breathing, they focus on their three feet world. And then that way they can get fluid, like they can be fluid in the right direction of they understand where they need to focus and what they need to put their attention on. And I remember when, you know, when Commander Divine was explaining this to me, I was just like so enthralled with how it was like both physiological but also psychological that it allows us to like regain focus. ⁓ so I love that Nike Pickleball is ⁓ is adopting practices of ⁓ the Navy SEALs, which we know are very well tested. ⁓ so, Jake, this is so refreshing and it's so appreciated. And just how you're talking about such a big, big idea and concept and sharing it in these manageable integrated ways that we can think about this in our own households. I do just want to say thank you so much. for this work that you are doing. And ⁓ I also know you happen to have a book on the horizon coming out in early twenty twenty seven. Can you take a moment just to tell us a wee bit about that so we can get those pre-order numbers rolling for ya.
speaker-1: Yes. Thank you, Robyne, for having me and for helping me send this message far and wide. My book, Connection Crash, releases on January 12th, 2027. It's being released in the US with Hachette and in Canada with HarperCollins. And so people can go ahead and pre-order that now. It's really a book about all the things we've been talking about, is how we can recenter our focus to rebuild the relationship skills that we lost technology. And first and foremost, it's really just a reminder that relationships are the technology and we can't lose sight of that. And so I think about just this example of like parents really focusing on screen time. If your relationship with your kids is not intact by the time they maybe move away to go to school or move of your house, then we've really lost the plot. Yeah. We we shouldn't care about screens and technology more than we care about the relationship. And we want to preserve that relational health at all costs. So that's what it's about.
speaker-0: Well said, my friend. Well, thank you. Thank you. We'll be sure to share that information in the show notes. And we will make sure to share your information where people could hear more about the good work that you are doing and tune in and listen to your podcast as well. So, Jake, thank you very much for this. And I continue, I I wish you continued success in this important conversation. So thank you for your time.
speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
speaker-0: Thank you for listening to this episode of Perspective. It means the world to me that you spent time listening to this idea, these conversations. Now, if you have found something useful or helpful, please share it with someone else. Something that I know it means the world to me to know when something has landed and then you pay it forward. Another way you can support the podcast is to rate and review this podcast wherever you listen. to podcasts. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for listening. I appreciate you and I look forward to connecting again very soon.
