Episode 5: 2004 Premiership player Jamie Feeney

Matt Attard: It had blown up so so far. We have to be seen to be doing all the right things and we all did. Even has, like Has wasn't there, but has got fingerprinted, has got interviewed and all these sort of things. That's just incredible. Here we are sitting in twenty twenty six and it's still being talked about. He used to play first grader. One girl back then said, Were you one of the rapists? So it was still sticking about eight years later, so And that's got to affect a lot of people and you know, we can't ask them all now, but you would think a lot of the boys in that squad do but back then you hardly knew anyone to get It has weakness back then. But I think it's starting to turn and I think you're tougher if you ask for help rather than back and think about it yourself and d and try and do it yourself. ⁓ absolutely. I tried to do that and it's way too Welcome to Pac Mentality, the Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs podcast where we chat footy, mindset, and life inside the pack. I'm your host, Matt Attard, joined by my co host Josh Ayun and a very special guest today. The Die Hard Bulldogs will have ⁓ no question marks on who this is. Jamie Feeney. Thanks for coming, mate. Thanks for the invite, boys. ⁓ it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Yeah, no, loving it. ⁓ thanks for coming. You know, you're one of the well You are the first OG we've had from the two thousand and four premiership winning side. There you go. I think we're gonna have a great chat today. You're gonna have a lot of tales to tell. It'll be it'll be good. And ⁓ I can't remember much from the week after that grand final win. I don't think you yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. But before and after is fine. You might be able to chat about that great. Well look the main thing we do here on pack mentality as well and the word play of pack mentality is ⁓ a lot to do with mental health, which is so you know, strong and dominant in the world these days and particularly footy. So we ask everyone this question. question to open every week and that is ⁓ who do you have inside your pack that you can kind of turn to if things get rough and you know is is that something that you've struggled with in the past or is it something you're on top of now? Yeah, no, I don't think you're ever on top of it. ⁓ something always comes and gets you. I've got ⁓ five kids and ⁓ my ⁓ from two marriages and my f after my first split and and moving away from them and and them getting move ⁓ in into their mum and take them away ⁓ from me and just having limited access and things like that. It's yeah, I've I I needed help at the time and and not only did I have my my footy friends but I've got a really close knit family and ⁓ with aunties and uncles and and everyone that you can chat to and ⁓ and it's about different things too. You you can't always talk the same you know, to the same to the same topic t for ⁓ the same people. So, yeah, ⁓ I've got a lot of support around me and ⁓ yeah, I I went through some tough times and needed it and and ⁓ those same people are there now that everything's going rosy and everything's fine, ⁓ the same people are around me now if you know to to lift you up but also also just to help you and and be there to celebrate the good times when they're on as well. So Yeah, yeah. I've got footy friends, Yeah, from from both my time at the Dogs, ⁓ there for eight years and and then my time down south in Melbourne for a couple and ⁓ a couple of those Melbourne boys I'm really close with, so ⁓ Yeah, I can always call them if I need Awesome. Yeah, and I I suppose mental health is not something that was really spoken about back in the day when you were playing footy. And did can you cast your mind back at all and remember, you know, 'cause obviously and we'll get into it later, but all of the issues around the two thousand and four Coffs Harbour thing and all that kind of stuff. ⁓ you know, if something like that was to happen today, I think there'd be a lot more focus around mental health for everyone. Yeah, I think so too. And and yeah, without without getting deep into that, like it it lasted We were we were cleared on day one and it was it lasted two and a half weeks through the papers and through the media mm that even my wife at the my ex wife now, but my wife at the time, she said, Surely there's got to be something some truth to this if it's keep going for that long. I'm like, I can tell you, we can show you footage, we can show you video. Any news around the dog's right? We I can show you all this. There's nothing to it, but the longer it went, you know, even the people that like Hasm Hasm's name was in it and Hasm doesn't go out at all. Hasm's more He's he was in bed, didn't drink, didn't go out with us, but his name was there around us and you just think, Well, how can this happen? But the longer it went, yeah, ⁓ the more damage was done and ⁓ and yeah, it was it was very tough. But around now, if something like that happened, I think the NRL have got processes involved. Back then it was just no, you you guys will be right. If you need to see a sport psychologist we'll we'll get you one. Or if you need to see a ki psychiatrist we'll get you one. But yeah, now I think there's a lot more done in that way. It's it's more prevalent in the world. I have to teach it at as a school teacher, I teach it at school and and and about the support services that the students have around them in in our area and it's more prevalent and and it's it's on everyone's tongues now and I don't think don't think there's anyone that hasn't gone through a tough time in their life that hasn't needed help and ⁓ and if you do, ⁓ yeah, you just reach out to your closest people 'cause yeah, it's very important and ⁓ I've been through it myself, yeah. Yeah, well said. Well said. So let's ⁓ rewind all the way back. So you grew up in Musselbrook, is that right? Yeah. Tell us about how I bred in in the brook. And that shaped your footy career. How did you get into football? Was it from a really young age? Yeah, yeah, it was. My dad was my dad played for Musselbrook all his all his junior and senior career and as I did ⁓ as a kid and ⁓ I was always around football. So Dad Dad retired I think his last game was in eighty six when I was eight. And and I was his ball boy and and then ⁓ I I so I was around football. I had to be around football and then he then he was became the secretary and the president and and stayed with Musterbrook Club for for a long time until I actually left and ⁓ and came down to Sydney. So ⁓ for a long time I was just around footy, so I think I had to play footy, you know, it was always it was always it was in my blood and and following dad there, but also ⁓ back then Musterbrook didn't have a lot of options for you either, you know. So I basically played football in the winter. and cricket in the summer and I I'm not a cricketer Yeah. I'm h hopeless at cricket, but you had to play it because all your mates were and they were the only things that you did. Yeah. And yeah, I can't even sit and watch a game th these days and and ⁓ as the students at school would say I I can't bowl or I can't bat so there you go. I can catch the ball. So how'd you end up with the Bulldogs? What was the the transition like from muscle brook to the Bulldogs? How did it all come about? Well I came down I finished uni in nineteen ninety five ⁓ finished school in nineteen ninety five and I got into Wollongong University to do a sports science degree. and I moved down there, I was down there for probably two months and then my mum just saw a advertisement on telegra in the Daily Telegraph that the Australian College of Phys Ed 'cause I wanted to I started in ⁓ in sports science but I really wanted to get into physio and and all that and then mum mum saw that there was a ⁓ scholarship application and I just in the paper, the telegraph. So I put in and out of two and a half thousand people I got picked as a academic or academic and cultural scholarship for yeah. So I basically got a free education and and then I went, ⁓ may as well become a teacher now. I'm I'm gonna get this. But yeah, back back then w I moved I moved down to Wollongong and and I moved back to Mustard because I back then A C P. E, which I eventually went to, ⁓ didn't start until April. So I was from January to April I had to do something. And so I moved back home. And then that move in April was so hard because I'd started playing football back home with all my mates. But then had to move down and and I didn't know anyone in Sydney. No one. So I got to know a few people through uni. ⁓ but then at the end of the that year. I I played divisional championships. They have country championships for everywhere in the outside metropolitan area and I played them and we we went through and we won that. And then I basically just put in for a an you know, fill in another form f to go and trial for the dogs and and and then at the time I filled that in and just basically yeah, you can come down and there's a few mates of mine went down and yeah, we all tried to get trial together and yeah, I just I got picked and I played with a half. That was the one thing Aaron Watts, who who was ⁓ one of my best mates growing up, that I played against and with he was put on the same side as me and and we'd played a lot of footy together, rep footy and all that. So he actually on the day he he was calling calls that only we knew from from juniors and all that. And I was running off holes for him and all that. He was he was making me look really good. But what Canterbury didn't tell him is they already had Sherwin, they already had ⁓ Hughes, they only already had Anderson and and And so they didn't need any halves but they needed back rowers, so yeah, they picked me and and what's poor Wattsy didn't get picked. But ⁓ yeah, and from then on they just moved me straight into the house. ⁓ Mark Hughes ⁓ grabbed me, he was the one that signed me and said, ⁓ mate, we'd we'd love for you to come down here, we'll we'll help you move from Musclebrook down here and I said, Well, I'm already living here and he goes, ⁓ where are you? I said, I'm at uni, this is my end of my first year of uni. I'm living in a boarding house at at Concord and and ⁓ so I said, ⁓ we'll we'll move you into our into our house and I I lived there for the next eighteen months and and loved it with Pete and Mary and ⁓ yeah and it was great, really good. Yeah, did that kind of truth that helped shape the player that you became, do you think? Those influences like Hughes and being in the share house and and Yeah, being in the share house was great. Like to because I think we had about eight or nine at the time. And by the time I'd finished and and left. Like you're only supposed to be there for a year, but I stayed there 'cause I was doing uni, I stayed there for a bit longer. I think I got eighteen months out and and just not having to worry about your food and all that. We we'd you'd basically I'd start my first lecture would be at eight o'clock in the morning, ⁓ at uni and the uni was at home bush. So I'd be I'd be driving to from Belmor to there. you'd only have to worry about your your breakfast, although We also had breakfast in the cupboard, but ⁓ you know, so you could get up and have cereal and all that that was provided by the club and and toast and and all that sort of stuff. So y you could get up and have that then or you could eat something better, ⁓ when you get over to uni. But you didn't have to worry you only had to worry about lunch. Your breakfast was sorta sorted out and your dinner you'd go 'cause we'd go straight from my last lecture, straight to training. Start training at four o'clock and then you'd be out of there by eight o'clock. And then and that's with Gym and then breaks and then field and you'd do that four days a week. And then coming home to just walk straight in and here's your food. Waiting for you. Eat it. Then you'd have a shower and and do some study and then that was repeat seven days a week and and it was and it just kept going. That was a cycle and and for me that was a it was a saviour. It's a bit different for footy players, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Yeah. I mean They could buy that house and they could probably buy the house in in Belmore with the money that they make these days. But my first contract was five grand, so I wasn't gonna get too much out of that. Well there go. ⁓ mate, tell us about ⁓ two thousand and two. What can you tell us? What do you want to tell us about that? Yeah, because obviously, yeah Yeah, tough one. Everyone knows the history there and how high flying the club was and you know, successful and then for it all to come crashing down. ⁓ what was Yeah, there's there's seventeen straight wins. I mean ⁓ that like that was We were so proud of that and then, you know, the you fast forward to the end of the thing and we get all our points taken off us and we come dead last and ⁓ we all tried to take like we all took ten percent pay cuts. I mean, I was on eighty grand at that time. Eight grand for me was a lot. Like in two thousand and two and I'd played for many years and and yeah, it was it was a lot and we didn't understand it. None of us like you sign a contract And walk out of that office and then you get paid. No one brought you guys all into an office and said this is what we've done, this is what's happened. No. None of us. Yeah. So and I don't know if it was a thing with with the club and the managers that sought that sort of stuff out, but in the end, yeah, we all we all took pay cuts, we all You know, we came dead last that year and even though we were we were high flying and they took like they took thirty eight points off us. I mean that's thirty eight points. You can't you don't get too many teams that get thirty eight points in a game. That's ⁓ in a year. In a year, yeah, we're unr unreal. And ⁓ yeah, we're ⁓ we're ⁓ on fire to to win. So ⁓ yeah, I mean it's disappointing at the time I and I I think I've got a interview at home there and my my ex wife sort of says to me You you called me your missus back then, like you surely you're smarter than that. I said, Well, they interviewed us all and I said, ⁓ you know, I don't even care about that. I've got a baby coming. My my missus is pregnant, so I've got a baby coming in two months, so I'm gonna worry about that. That's what I said. ⁓ I I guess going through that as well though, it it ⁓ probably helped to build up resilience. Yeah. And I mean we're we're a really tight group. ⁓ and it's probably at the two thousand and two to two thousand and four things things changed. changed quite a bit with all the young boys coming in. and and but but before that when we had all that like a lot of the older players that we'd come in through and that that even Barr played with and and Terry was one of our ⁓ coaches ⁓ in the reserve grade side when we when we won the comp in ninety eight ⁓ he ha he brought a lot of those older blokes through to play with us as as reserve graders to teach us how the game's supposed to be played and how and everything about the club, ⁓ and and how it's ⁓ And they do have like without sounding bad, that they we did have that pack mentality. We we did have ⁓ it was all for the team and and you know, if you work hard you you ⁓ you'll get the results and and that's what we really thought and then we and we worked bloody hard for each other and then to to get it ripped out. It it it stung but again, I did have ⁓ my first child to look forward to, you know, and and we sorta just I don't know we sort of just went on with it and said, Well, we can't do anything about it but but we w wanted to make sure that if once yeah, I think it was it was either two or three rounds left where that that they stripped our points and we knew we couldn't do anything about it, that we just wanted to ⁓ finish the year well and w and we did. I mean played against Brisbane I think and and we were no we're supposed to have no chance of winning. And ⁓ on that first week the first weekend after they took the points off us and ⁓ yeah, we went out and and did the job and and then we then we I guess we tried to th be that team that would could ruin someone else's season rather than ⁓ then ⁓ yeah fix ours. So yeah, I think that's what we tried to do and and ⁓ yeah we all finished it and we we had no control over it so And do you think that helped? that two thousand and four. Yeah, I think part of it. But a lot of those in two thousand and two a lot of those young boys like Mason or them are just sort of st starting then. ⁓ whereas once we got into two thousand and four they were well established then. And and I I honestly think and and I have not spoke I've spoken to to a few of the boys. I I honestly think that the start of two thousand and four helped us win the two thousand four grand final. Yeah we'll let we'll we'll we can we'll chat about that if you want to. Let's ⁓ what are your rec what's your recollec ⁓ recollection of of all of that that went down at Coffs Harbour and and the whole scandal and everything. And and as you said, I mean you guys were all cleared up pretty much straight away. We were cleared within two hours of of us getting into a meeting with Gary Hoos at the time was our footy manager. We were clear of that because Yeah, the she ale ⁓ alleged that we that w all this happened in the pool area and they looked at the pool area and ⁓ and the video and and all that and and so we were clear there. But somewhere between the couple of hours between us getting told ⁓ us getting told that we needed to have the meeting and us getting cleared, someone's rang the ⁓ Sydney radio because once we got to Sydney had blown up. It blew up. It had blown up so so mu so far. What do you remember about it when you guys did get you know, what I I'm assuming if you guys had this meeting and you were told, like okay, yeah, we're all cleared and then you get back to Sydney. But then we and then we were saying, ⁓ boys, you know, don't bring girls home. Don't bring girls home and then and and we're like, Yeah, we yeah, we broke that rule. But ⁓ Yeah, and then As soon as we got off the plane, it was just insane. It was insane. And then you fast forward to the next day and and the first four people that turned up to training had to go to ⁓ the police station ⁓ in the the city in ⁓ in the city and and poor Sonny turns up with a Nike shirt that we all get given that we yeah, ⁓ 'cause we were sponsored by Nike back then. ⁓ and he wears a shirt that says on the back of it or on the front of it, I know, is we play dirty and I'm like Sonny, you could have picked any other shirt you possibly could on that day. You guys obviously had no idea. No, we had no idea. We just thought we were coming in and but then as soon as you like I was one of the first four ⁓ that got that got the training. As soon as you came in, they said, All right, ⁓ you you boys have gotta come with us. We're going into the ⁓ w with Gary and ⁓ and the other staff that w that we had to go with. We're coming into the police station we have to be seen to be doing all the right things and we all did. Even has, like has wasn't there, but has got fingerprinted, has got interviewed and all these sort of things and and yeah, it went went to the nth degree and I just remember Why I think and why are we doing this when we've seen that we were cleared and everything? But it just blew up so much that and as I said before, the the longer it went, more people, even people that trusted us would were asking questions. So And it did last a long time. It wasn't just a couple of weeks, it was the whole year. And it was it was after that. I mean and look it's ⁓ even now you hear comments, don't you? You know, you see comments getting bought up every time there's something happens, it's they throw the the Coffs Harbour the whole the whole event of that out and it's like And that was a lot ⁓ of And for those listening, I mean Josh here ⁓ runs the Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs News Facebook group had tons of followers. About how many followers are we up to? ⁓ About 145. It's probably the most popular Facebook fan page. So we we see a lot of comments, particularly you running it, you know. Yeah. And ⁓ even to this day you see comments about from rival fans and whatnot about Coffs Hubber. Yeah. That's just incredible. Here we are sitting in 2026 and it's still being talked about. Yeah, well I as I said before I got I got divorced and my my wife and I ex-wife and I separated ⁓ in two thousand and ten and and I s I was up on the central coast at the time and and in two thousand I think it was two thousand and ten or ⁓ twelve or thirteen the blokes that I were coaching up there thought it was funny that every time that they introduced me to a girl they say, ⁓ this is ex bull bulldog Jamie Feeney. He used to play first grade and One girl back then said, ⁓ so were you one of were you one of the rape rapists? And it was like it would have probably been eight years after. It was probably two thousand and twelve and I said, No and I said and ⁓ guess what? No one did it, so ⁓ Why are you even bringing that up? Right? There's no truth to it. Go back, read the papers. I don't read papers. So you're just listening to what people say. You're just listening and it's that sticky. So yeah, it's it was still sticking about eight years later. So and that's got to affect a lot of people and you know, we can't ask them all now, but you would think a lot of the boys in that squad, yeah, ⁓ particularly the ones that were named, yes actually named and and accused. Yeah, definitely. ⁓ and then cleared, but then have you know to cop it for so long. Yep. How how they would have dealt with that mentally at the time is ⁓ something to really ponder. Yeah, and I mean mental health is so s out there now and there's so many support services you can go and talk to, but back then you hardly knew anyone to get And it was like, yeah, if if I need help then I yeah, I'm probably not tough enough or strong enough and and ⁓ I'm so glad that it's it's turned. And ⁓ there's I still think there's people that don't wanna show weakness. But ⁓ but I think yeah, it's it's starting to turn and and more and more people I think you're I think you're tougher if you ask for help rather than sit back and think about it yourself and do and try and do it yourself. ⁓ absolutely I tried to do that and it's way too hard. So let's keep talking about two thousand and four obviously start of the year off with a bang, Sonny Bill's debut, that kind of thing. The whole year it was just it was a magic, magic year. But I mean there were some kind of ups and downs during the years, a couple of big losses that I can remember as well. But at the end of the day, got the job done and it was absolutely incredible. I can't remember how many games you specifically played that year. I only I think I played twelve. Didn't play in the grand final, but you were there obviously on grand final day and Yeah, I was eighteenth and yeah, I warmed up on the field then had to take my gear off and watch them win. So that must have been tough. A little bit of tough slog. Bit of sweet bit of sweet. I'll tell you what, JT was great because JT J T he was in North Queensland the year after, but I would I had already signed to go to Melbourne. And so but JT and apparently this is and we've spoke about it and laughed about it, but apparently JT had already signed but he didn't tell anyone. Right. So 'cause I was leaving, then folks he 'cause normally we have a four we'd have a four forward bench. ⁓ But then JT. Delayed his announcements till after the Grant final. Yeah, so you could have been on the bench. Who knows? Well why do you Simon Storm then? Well Well look we will chat about a little bit more about the year before I ask you that. So yeah, tell us about two thousand and four 'cause it was a pretty magical year and then you get the result at the end. Yeah it was. And ⁓ and then I guess In two thousand four, as I said, I played twelve games out of the the whole season and I was up and up and down and and playing the role that I probably played my whole career is just filling in for different people and like I played a hundred and thirty two games and I only started in ⁓ twelve of ⁓ So I've spent a hundred I've had a hundred and twenty off the bench just filling in for different people and I'd played in the centres and back row, I'd played hooker at some stage, ⁓ and and lock and ⁓ Yeah, and I'd I'd probably played that role up and down, but then I thought two thousand and four might have been my year, especially after I'd signed up with Melbourne, to be like your Mitch Newtons and your ⁓ Simon Gillies's and your Barry Wards and your Duncan McCrae's and all that that that I learned a lot off when I was coming through in ninety eight. ⁓ and so that was sort of my my role and I was trying to help some of those young kids come through. But in the end you help some of those kids take your spot too. Yep. But it's for me it was okay because I thought that was my role at the time because that's what Mitch and and that did for me. Sure. And I thought that was my role at the time. And then so I was I was very happy with the fact that we won. I would yes, I would have loved to play in the game and and ⁓ but I still treasure my ⁓ my ring that I have. Yeah, very much and and I feel like I was part of that I feel like I was part of the team winning and the and the squad winning because I played a few games and ⁓ you definitely had a hand yeah. So yeah you have your hand in it in it. I I used to think you had to play in the game to be part of the the win, but I I don't think that anymore. And I think my time in Melbourne probably taught me that as well. Sure. 'Cause that's That's their mentality as well. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you remember of actual Grand Final Day in two thousand and four? ⁓ it was a huge ⁓ it was an absolute occasion. I remember warming up and then getting changed and having a shower and then putting my putting my gear back on. But then, yeah, no, it it was huge. I th it I felt like the game went fast. Right. Like I felt like and when you when you have a look at the game and when you and I still remember just sitting there and I was sitting in the bench and i in behind where pricey and and everyone was. ⁓ and I just feel like the start of it, you're going, ⁓ this is a bit slow, but then you go, ⁓ it's nearly it's five minutes to the till it half time. Jeez, we we got some work to do or it was quite wet, wasn't it? There was a lot of a lot of mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of mistakes in that game, but it was a real grind. Yeah, it was. And then Then we got to that point where Haz did that what it's like it's almost slow mo trial that he should jumping over jumping over the top of people to score that try and then and we h we had I remember Pricey going, What's a try or not? You know, what is it? And 'cause it 'cause it he jumped and he moved so many times to jump over him. And a lot of people thought it was a double movement as well. Yeah, that's right. And and we're geez yeah, and that's when you're starting to get a little bit anxious on the sideline, but then I just remember us all jumping up when when when he got it cleared and then Yeah, we just you're just talking about the mentality we had because we worked so hard that year. Pricey was really good because ⁓ the start of the year he was the one that got us all together. Like yeah. We were we were fairly clicky. There was really ⁓ there was older guys with with kids and they're married with kids for years and and that was sort of us and ⁓ And then there was a young ones coming through that that we needed and that were were so good. and Pricey was really good at keeping us together through the tough times at the start of the year. And then I think that just sort of gelled us all. We didn't socialise away from footy really, but because we were ⁓ all at footy throughout the day and everything, I think we We got a little bit closer with those younger ones, like your Roy's and your and your J Ts and and Willie and Sonny and Ranny and and all of them. It's an incredible group of young talents. Yeah. And I mean Maddie Utai was sorta in in both because he had kids really young. Yeah. And so he was in that group but he was only a young fella himself and he Yeah. And so we sorta had two different two different groups and I think Pricey was great and Bobcat too, outstanding, to to get us all together and playing on the one page and ⁓ and working so hard for each other and they they kept us together and I've no doubt and that's why I think the tough times at the start of two thousand and four ⁓ galvanize you guys. Yeah, galvanise us and help us win the comp because I don't think ⁓ we might have played separately and rather than as a team if we if we hidn didn't and ⁓ and f and and again, sorry, folks he folks in Kev were great ⁓ too. There was a lot of pressure on them. ⁓ obviously because you know, the the whole ⁓ scandal sort sort of kept playing out through the papers and all that. So, you know, and and it's up to the coaches to keep us under control. And I mean it took its toll on on Gary, ⁓ on Gaz, who was our footy manager and and ran the club at the time, so it took its toll on them too and ⁓ and I think us winning the comp is a is a you know, a great result for all of those people and it wasn't just the that's why I I also feel like it wasn't just the seventeen people that played in the game for sure that win that comp. ⁓ Because yeah, we w had so much happen that ⁓ yeah, everyone had to contribute. It couldn't couldn't have just been the the seventeen players. Yeah, definitely. Let's chat about Foxy. I the late great Steve Fox. What a man. Absolutely tremendous man. I'm you I'm sad I've never never got the chance to meet him, but you spent a lot of time with him. Tell us about Foxy. Yeah, well Foxy was Foxy and Billy Johnson, when I first got there They're the hardest. Like he was Foxy when I first got there in ninety seven and and he was the reserve grade coach and Chris Anderson was first grade coach. And so and I was playing under nineteen at the time. ⁓ we got to do some opposed work and all that against reserve grade because we were all part timers and and a lot of the reserve grade were too. We got did a bit of opposed and and like Foxy was was so fit himself. And then when Chris moved to Melbourne went to Melbourne the year after and he stepped up. not until ninety nine did I go full I go into full time squad, but he would do all the training with everyone. Foxy would do all the training with so I've kind of taken that from Foxy too, that I I coach a lot of teams and I've coached for longer than I ever played. ⁓ I've coached a team every year since I retired and I try and do some running and and train ⁓ with them too, because if if folks he could do ⁓ and Billy Johnson, then what excuse have we got not to do it when we're young blokes and they're they're older. So ⁓ he yeah, it was so hard. But the training was so hard too, which got us that's why we had that mentality, like the hard work mentality and and that you knew that all the teammates, what the all the teammates have gone through that they've got it in ⁓ to just push ⁓ push more, to push harder. They're never gonna give up. That's the famous dogs of war mentality, right? Yeah, yeah, it is. Definitely. And and and that came from them and they taught us all that. And I now ⁓ folks he wasn't great at teaching skill. He wasn't great at and it wasn't a great communicator. He's probably had Kev there ⁓ that did a lot of skill work with us, but folks he taught us how to be tough. He he taught us, he showed us how to how to be tough and and how to play tough and and and I mean Billy Johnson, everyone knows his stories. we used to have a little room that was it's probably four by four, no windows under under Belmore. No windows and and you'd put rowers in there and you can't have fans or anything in there 'cause that was what we we used to we had just had had ⁓ those ergy rowers and you'd have to go in there and just work so hard But you had no you could no water in there or anything. It was like we used to call it the Nile, 'cause it was like rowing the Nile in Egypt, 'cause it was it was so hot. And yeah, you just had you'd had to do nine hundred, six hundred, three hundred metres, and then three hundred, six hundred, nine hundred, and you all had to you had to get it under Wells. But ⁓ We I I played two when there was no GPS units or I think we in those in those sessions we used to you know, when you had the straps and the and the watch, like the heart rate monitors there, we used to have to swap ⁓ over like they didn't even have that much that many of ⁓ That you'd wear one and you'd have your little ⁓ brace around around your chest to sort of get your heart rate, you'd wear your watch and then you'd walk out and ⁓ here Trevor, you gotta wear this now and give it to him and then he jumps in there and that w like that's the game's gone so scientific now that ⁓ but back then that's what we had to do and yeah. And we we used to stop training when we vomited, not and Billy goes right I I think you might have had enough fiend and rather than how many Ks you do now and and how many meters you've ran and in high speed meters and it's completely different. ⁓ it's it's just not and it is a completely different game. Completely different and do you see it as a positive, a negative, good, you know, like kind of in between? As a fan, I I see it as a negative. All right, because I like to to watch ⁓ games that that flow. Now even that the game last night, with ⁓ with the Cowboys. Like they they were under the pump and and got sixty goes or something at the start of the game, three in a row or something and then the young fella gets sent off. O'Donnell gets sent off now. Or ten minutes but he's be they've been under the pump. Yeah. Like the sixty goes and all that unless unless they can actually the referees can actually tell the players how to what they're for on the run and be and so they can understand it so they don't make the same mistakes back to back to back. Like And that's what they used to do to you fellas? Well yeah they used to. Yeah. And but it wasn't ever now now I think when I'm watching the game that it's all about entertainment and and the speed of the game and more points and more More ball and play. Yeah. More ball in play and all that. Where where ours is more about just being tougher and winning the dogfight and and and now it's more about who is gonna pay the most to watch the T V ⁓ watch watch it through the T V at home and and tries are more important because they wanna see good tries and but yeah. For me for me I as a fan I don't but as a as a coach I understand why they're doing it. ⁓ but and it and it's hard because as a coach you can actually coach players to be better at at ⁓ fighting their front so they can fight harder and it looks like they're getting held down longer and all that but it in in the end outsmarting the referees out trying to outsmart ⁓ and and as a coach I under I can understand that bit, but as a fan, I there's some games where you just go, I even I, who have been around rugby league all my life, don't understand what's going on here. Mm-hmm. Frustrated how how can the players understand it? And how did that kid young kid of O'Donnell know that he was gonna get sent off like he ran at him like He was obviously backpedaling. See he was trying to get keep himself out. Yeah. But constant rule changes. That's right, and there seems to be no leniency from referees these days. It's very black and white. Yeah, you think they do. Well I'd never be I'd I'd take my hat off to ⁓ because I'd never be a ref. But I feel sorry for them in a way because they're obviously being coached. Yeah, they're being coached to referee the game that way. So they're only doing their job and doing, you know, what they're told to do. It's it's sorta seems like each five or six weeks they're they're changing what they're focusing on. That's right, and different So then they're going to be something that gave you a penalty two weeks ago is no longer giving you a penalty now and but but they're gonna focus on something else that you're gonna get penalised for and they're telling them to to interpret things differently than they did a week ago. Yeah. You know, it it just seems to be a constant. But ⁓ I understand that they want the game more entertaining, but I don't think entertaining means putting more rules or interpret interpreting the rules differently to try. Yeah. I mean the amount of times that we've hit forty, sometimes when you when you get to forty and you've seen teams miss six tackles in that lead up and you go, Well, I'd rather see some good tackles and in that than another try. For sure. And and a blowout in points. Because Tell us about ⁓ tell us about your transition from Bulldogs to Melbourne, how'd it come about? well I I I got an offer I did get a couple of offers to to go to different teams, but then ⁓ yeah, Mel Melbourne was the one where I could kinda get out of the Sydney spotlight. ⁓ even though I wasn't a big name, it was and I was but I was still getting noticed around Paper because of O two and then into O four and and being in the papers and all that and and I just thought it would gonna be a great change. and I rang I rang my mate ⁓ Maddie Geyer and and ⁓ and I already knew him from the ⁓ from some past dealings and I rang him and sort of said, What do you what do you think? ⁓ It's a good good call and he Yeah, yeah, mate, come down and and Dennis Scott was going too, so ⁓ we were good mates at at the dog so ⁓ he was coming going down there too and and our f our ⁓ wives got ⁓ were were friendly so ⁓ yeah we we made that decision and I had two I had my two kids at the time, so the only thing we we moved away from was was support with them but ⁓ Melbourne was a as a group that that whole That whole club ⁓ supports you down there so well that ⁓ yeah, we didn't we didn't feel like we were isolated at all. There was there was always something on going f going on for the players and the partners and that so that the kids could get to know each other and ⁓ and you never felt like you were isolated down there by yourself. How did you I mean, 'cause you retired not long after that. Yeah. How did you know it was time to retire? ⁓ well I had two bulging discs in my lower back. ⁓ that were causing me grief. So I'd get hit. I'd be out running around on the field, get hit in a certain spot, pinch my sciatic nerve and my right leg would go numb and and that takes a lot of fun out of footy. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, and then I I had another I think I had another year left at Melbourne, but I got offered a coaching job and what I did learn, as I said, folksy and and folksy Billy and then Kev taught us how to play tough footy and and and enough with enough skill to be able to win games, but it more, you know, that mental mental and physical toughness and and the skills from some of the players. I mean, you know, the the players that we had ⁓ around like like Sonny and J T and then your work rate of of Pricey and and Tony Grimaldi and those those sort of players and once and games, but I went down to Melbourne I actually I felt like I'd learnt to play rugby league. Mm. So I learnt the little tiny things. So you'd go to training at Melbourne and ⁓ and you'd learn to catch the ball again. Catch and pass the ball again. And they still do it down there now, ⁓ 'cause I've been down there several times. and bulldogs are starting to do that now. So I've I'm in a little roll up up on ⁓ in the Hunter with Scouting and development coaching and I get sent some videos of the stuff that ⁓ Seraldo's got the boys doing here. And they do they're go they're going way back to basic skills, like just standing there and passing the ball over and catching it with one hand with so your grip's stronger and which affects your pa well, affects your catch that then affects your pass and all this sort of stuff. Now down in Melbourne we were doing them in you know, when I went down there in O five. went way back to the basic skills but also the basic plays and all that and why you need to do why you did this. Not just it just they didn't expect you to know it. They taught it to you. And ⁓ so I felt like I've I learned a lot about footy over that time and I spent a lot of time ⁓ I think I played eight games in the only eight games in in my in two thousand and six 'cause I did did get hurt. ⁓ they found the the bulging discs and And I didn't want to have they yeah, they'd offered me another year and I didn't want to have to go through that year with with that injury again. and so and I asked Robbie Ross, because Robbie Ross had had it done, he goes, ⁓ mate, I wouldn't get it. Because what they were gonna do is fuse my discs and they so they'd never move. He goes, ⁓ no, I wouldn't have had it, just if you've got a better offer. then then take that. And they offered me three years ⁓ as a coach with their New South Wales Cup squad, which they moved to the Central Coast. It was called the Central Coast Storm at the time. Yep. So they yeah, so that's when I went straight into coaching and I learnt so much. I spent 'cause I only played eight games, I spent a lot of time in the box with Belly Ache throughout two thousand and six. as a as a coach, 'cause they knew I was gonna move in as a coach for them, ⁓ and move to the Central Coast. So Yeah, I learned a lot about coaching and that's where yeah, I just fell in love with coaching then and and you've been doing it pretty much ever since, haven't you? Yeah, every year since. And a bit of a pioneer in the women's game as well. I mean Yeah. I jumped done a lot of work in that space. It was funny. It was funny that because I I ⁓ I got I went for a I went for a job with New South Wales rugby league that again that was advertised and I I think I've ha I've had a lot of luck going for advertised jobs along the time. But ⁓ yeah, I it was with New South Wales Rugby League. They were starting with what was gonna be an Origin Pathways program. So all the junior teams from sixteens, eighteens, twenties and then women's as well, were going to start ⁓ year long programs where they get ⁓ in and and they teach ⁓ all and then in the end that you pick your the best seventeen to go and play, but even the the juniors and so we're doing I was running a recruitment system through the Harold Matthews, the S G ball, ⁓ Jersey flag and then the women's New South Wales women's premiership it was called then. ⁓ and and a selection program and then running camps, you know, probably six six or so camps each ⁓ throughout each year for each of ⁓ So yeah, and then that sort of fast tracked into ⁓ me watching my first ever game of women's rugby league. And that was in twenty fifteen. But there'd been sixteen Yeah, ⁓ Queensland had won the last sixteen games and I had no like I've been around football all my life. I've been I'd been a professional player for ten years before that and did not even know that New South Wales played Queensland in women once. Yeah. But then I had to run a whole women's program and Queensland had won sixteen straight games. And ⁓ and so we started this program where we get these girls in and teach ⁓ more and more about footy. ⁓ about the game and Izzy Kelly was in her ⁓ Kezie Apps, all of those girls were at that that first one, but also Ruan Sims, Eliana Walton, all of those. And yeah and Then we we had a draw the first year. So it was the first draw good w was a win. Yeah. It was a draw, so it was better than a loss, but then we we started to win there there on after. So that that program's kept going from from now on. Before they would just pick the best team and then just play a game. But but then they wanted to to win more and and have these long periods. So I got yeah, I was very lucky to get that job. It's probably the best job I've had and then fast tracked that into us beating Queensland for the first time. Brad Donald was the Queensland coach. I'd work with and and was full time he was full time with Queensland, I was full time with New South Wales and he got offered the Australian job and and then offered me if ⁓ asked me if I wanted to do the assistant coach. So I did that for years and won won the World Cup in twenty seventeen and then ⁓ Brad took him over there in twenty twenty one and won as well and yeah, so it jumped over to that side and and I hadn't seen a rogue girls' rugby league game before twenty fifteen and then I was Assistant coach in twenty seventeen of the of the Australian side, so fast yeah, it was the fast progress. But but ⁓ the game's going that fast that growing that fast that that's just how it had to happen. And I was gonna ask you that next. I mean what do you what have you seen in the growth of the game over the last ten years and how do you think it's going and are you happy with where it's at and yeah, I yeah, I think it needs to happen next. I am I'm happy with where it's at, but I also think We get we're putting a lot of people out on show that aren't quite up to it yet. So I understand that you wanna fast that the game wants to fast track all the the teams and try and get all teams to have a women's team but the game yeah slow the game is not at that yet. Yeah. If you if you go down you watch some the New South Wales women's premiership games and and things like that, then you you can see that some of those players we don't wanna put on the T V yet. Yeah, we don't want them to be out there and show the and be showcasing a product that's that we want to make money for the game. At the moment the women's game doesn't make well I don't think it ⁓ it does. It doesn't make enough money to to fund it. and until that until we can sort of make the product better and and the sponsors get behind it and start to see ⁓ some I don't know, it's not I I feel like I feel like the women's game sometime is watching where the men's game was ten or fifteen years ago where they they'll try things and they'll make a mistake but then it then it's but it's okay 'cause they'll try something where it's the the men's game's all about completion rates now. And grinding a win and Yeah, and we had this conversation with the girls that we've had on the show already, like Taylor Preston and Elizabeth McGregor and Bridget Clay and we've asked them the same thing about the women's game and and how hard it is to be the best version of themselves and the best players and to develop properly when they still have to go and working night. Yeah, they to work all day. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's and until until we can I don't think the game will become professional and it and it is for quite a few of them. There's quite a few of them making a lot of money out of it, which is great. And they deserve it. ⁓ but it's it's not going to become professional until we can slow down the development and Not slow down the not the players' development, but slow down the the team, the numbers and expansion and the growth to be able to to make sure that all the players that we're putting on the T V to try and sell the game each week are the best players in the Yeah, not just grabbed out 'cause there's a couple more teams coming in this year, isn't there? I believe so, yeah. Kind of like last year they brought in the dogs and and was it the Warriors they bought back as well? Yeah, back the Warriors. Like every year they're bringing teams in, but y you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean how Long does it take how long does it take in the game? Like the men's game started in 1908, right? Yeah. But we want the and the girls the girls' game actually really only started in 2018. Yeah. But we want it what eight years. Eight years later, we want it to be as big. Perfect examples like at the dog's Mitchwoods. You know, he's been in you know, he's been training with the top 34 two, three years. Two or three years, yeah, everyone's and you know, he's still not ready yet. You know, some people say he is, some people say he isn't. If he was ready, he'd you know, barring injuries, he might have had a crack, but yeah, you know, that's a two, three year burn and his technically his body's not ready yet. So how will the women doing that week? That's exactly right. And ⁓ until yeah, again, we gotta make the we've got to get the game generate more money so that we can make these girls professional and so that they don't have to go to work all day and then try and train for three hours a day. And some of them most of them are mums as well. I mean yeah they are. Yeah they are and that is so yeah. And people like semi bremner and and I don't know if Millie's gonna come back and and try and play after having having kids, but I know a a fair few of them have. Like To be able to do that, to go through like seeing I've seen five kids being born to to see that and then go through yeah go through go through and play and want to play football as well. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ yeah, it's ⁓ very yeah, you've got to I suppose if they can give you know, you give birth, it's the most ⁓ painful thing I was. Footy it'd be a walk into the park, wouldn't it? Yeah, well. Pre season. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well if you ask Montoyer and his missus, they ⁓ they're funny. Shout out to them. Maybe we'll have to get them on here when ⁓ Yeah. Well See Tay was actually working at ⁓ at New South Wales Rogue or at the NRL when when I was in there as well. So that was when they first started. So I know I know them from from way back then too. They're good people, aren't Very good. Very successful. They are so funny. They're hilarious. Yeah. They're great. You you obviously had a lot to do with coaching and not just the women's, but yeah, coaching in general and player development and that sort of thing. What's the biggest mistake that you see young people making when they're trying to push towards a professional c career and making it to the NRL? I think a lot of them try and watch a screen and see what's on Friday night footy and then go out there and try and do it when these guys that are that are on the T V they that's their full time job. They train to do all this sort of stuff. Like I like Cam Smith, Cam Smith highest pla ⁓ you know, the the player's played the most ⁓ amount of games for any club and and then you have a think about him and hit and the ⁓ amount of time he's played for Queensland and Australia. Like the amount of games there. He still went in his last years of football was practicing passing, you know, a hundred times a day. So these kids need to understand that to do what that you can do on T V you've got to put in the work. And they just think because they're fast and they're skillful, they can step like Billy Slater did or I'm talking like I'm ⁓ Yeah, like who's the who's the Kaylin Ponger. Yeah. Right? Let's we can step like Calen Ponger. I'm still talking years ago when I was playing. like them, then they should be able to do the same skill but it's yeah it's not paying so they you try to fast track ⁓ because they 'cause you think they can do what you s they see on T V. ⁓ but that's not really what teams look for, right? That's not what they're after. They don't everyone can have that talent, but have you got that the work ethic to do it? Will y will you be able to are you coachable? All right, because you have to be coachable these days 'cause the game's changing so quickly that ⁓ that you have to be able to change with the game, not just play your way all the time. Yep. Sure. And I think that's that's a big thing that's it it kinda happens a little bit up home where I am, I think it happens a lot ⁓ through the junior reps. We've got a big strong boy that can run like that and he ⁓ carries a ball in one hand, let's make him into the next Sunny Bill and yep and all that where you go, no, how about you work on what he can't do properly Right, and then make him into the next whatever his name is. That's right. Make make him you know, make and and get his name through there b by ⁓ fixing up the the inadequacies he's got in his game rather than just focusing on the things he can already do well. Rather than trying to put a label on him as someone that already exists kind of thing. It does. A lot of these young guys that you know they they have a a wrap on them going through the grades and then straight away it's like, ⁓ he's gonna be the next so and so and he's gonna be the next so and so and then, you know, unfortunately they come into first grade with that pressure and a lot of the time they don't succeed straight away. No, no not at all. And if they're if they've been that bigger, stronger, faster, more skillful player that maybe that leading half back in their group or their their competition for so long, ⁓ they've probably only got pat on the pats on the back. They've probably never been told they're not good at something. That's right. Sometimes when you tell someone they're not good at something, they'll go, ⁓ you know, they don't like this. But as a coach, if you're telling someone this is how I feel anyway, and this is definitely how I learnt off Craig, 'cause he was my first I guess coach mentor when I was decided to retire and and be a coach is that if you're teaching someone to be better at something they're not good at, that's you showing that you care about ⁓ then you want them to be better, a better player and and grow. Yep. Not Just pointing it out and saying, Well, this is what you need to do better. I go off and do it. But you actually tell ⁓ how to do it better, show ⁓ how to do it better. And that's you caring about them as a player. Telling ⁓ what they need to you know what they want to hear. But a lot of them hear the negative and just go, ⁓ he doesn't like me. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Is that the new way? Furthest from the truth. Were there players like that back when you played or was it different? There were and there were also players like that when I was coaching too at different. And there it seems to be a lot of players like that now. Yeah. So Yeah, that yeah. There are and you know, and you just gotta I know it's hard for some of them, especially especially now where the gamers generated so much money that ⁓ they get paid a lot more and and you know they've watched they've got a lot more and they've got a lot more things and their ego just goes gets huge and not all of them, but their ego gets bigger and bigger like their ⁓ like their paychecks, but they've just gotta realise that that it can be over very quickly as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, they they have to be coachable and that's and I think that's the thing that ⁓ is missing in a in a lot of people coming through, especially if they've been given a lot of accolades all the way through and not been told that they That they're not good at something and they and ⁓ because yeah, you've got to be able to learn and on the run. The game's changed that much that ten years ago it's not the same game that's now, which is not the same game as twenty years or thirty years ago when we were running around. It's gonna change again. And you have to change with it, otherwise you'll be out the door. Yeah, what do you think the next five or ten years is gonna look like for rugby league? ⁓ I hope they slow I hope they slow down the all the changes. I hope they do and it starts to get back to pure football ⁓ talent and rather than yeah, the all they spoke about driving out of here today was was the six agains and and the the rural interpretations and how they're different with with the refs. We shouldn't be talking about that. We should be it shouldn't be the refs that are spoken about after games. It has to be the football. And I think we're changing the game too much and I I hope they sort of slow it down and and bring it back to pure footy and who's got the who's get willing to go the longest ⁓ play the play the smartest. They kind of over analyze ⁓ Everything there's everything is, don't they? Everything's about stats and and Well no, Fox has got this Fox AI stat thing they've got now. God knows what the hell that even means now. And like, you know, the other day someone finished a game with eight point six five points or something or the On the AI tracker. On the AI tracker either, and it's like what the hell. And even the even the Fox League reporters don't even know what it is. Even they're asking each other what that means. Yeah, and I mean the game's got to evolve and grow, obviously, and and you know, over time, but it sh it feels like it's rushed. I think so too. And I'd I don't know. I don't know how much the game makes, but ⁓ it makes it makes enough. ⁓ a lot. Yeah, why especially with a new TV deal coming in soon that's kind of You've got a new team next year and then what 2028 another team isn't the PSG. Next year's the Bears. So two next two years you've got another two teams coming, like Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know. And for me, data is only important, like getting all this sort of stuff, whatever they can get from a GPS unit now. Whatever that is, it's only good if you can use it. Mhm. So if if you're grabbing all this data that just confuses the crap out of everyone and don't get me wrong, p some people are smart in in our game and really smart, but ⁓ we're we're more blue colour collar than white collar. And Just make it simple and let us be able to watch it on TV and and really enjoy it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And ⁓ and and have a smile on our face rather than finish frustrated and angry and and not understanding what the hell was going on. Yeah, maybe time to strip it back to basics a little bit. Yeah. Like you were speaking about before at training, you know? Catch and pass, basics. A hundred percent. And that's what yeah, down in Melbourne that's what we did a lot of and that's why they continue to do ⁓ now and and that's why the dogs have gone back the they're back to that sort of stuff and that's why they're competing. Yeah. And that's why they're s more successful and they're they're in games for longer. Yeah. Yeah. So I I did want to ask you before we wrap up, what the ⁓ who who do you think is the best player that you've ever played with? When you have to think if you know, if you had to pick right now, just one player, who would you have to go with? Well there's a there's a couple the most influential player on a g on the on a success of a game was Cameron Smith. Yeah. Wasn't the best player, but he was the most influential but he was a really good referee, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. But but so smart. So smart. Like what he is what goes through his head when we're we're when we're playing a game, ⁓ is like we're miles behind him and and but and he understands that game and can read it better than but then it better than anyone. ⁓ I think about just pure football ⁓ pure football talent. Probably probably J T. Mm I reckon. Probably J T. But he was sorta I that was only wasn't playing with him, he was that good because I he was only young when I was sort of finished playing with him. But once he saw once he started to develop and understand the game and he matured and all that god. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was unreal. Yeah. Fantastic. Look, ⁓ wonderful chat. I think we could probably sit here for another hour or two and keep chatting footy, but we probably should wrap it up. I do want to say thank you for the gift before we get It's all right, mate, yeah. Tell us about it. Yeah, well that was the first the first polo I got given as a after I signed my f very first contract which was a 5k contract a super league I I was born a couple of years too ⁓ too early because ⁓ too s too late sorry because another year when I was playing in the reserve grade I would have been paid two hundred grand just to sign a contract. But anyway that was five five grand I reckon and that's a double XL I reck and I was only seventy eight kilos when I come down here to the Bulldogs. It would have been massive. It would have been massive. I'd say they gave us out the leftovers from the seniors, but that was my very first polo I got given after I signed my first contract down here to to play in the super the Malman Inge Cup in the super league and ⁓ first time I ever jumped on a plane was to to Adelaide. We had to play the Adelaide Rams and first time I've ever been on a plane which was which was all so good too. and yeah, it's ⁓ it's all yours, mate, 'cause it's been it's been away for a long time. It's got a few stains on there that I don't know, they're red stains. I I must have had mate, I was young, I was probably drinking red corny or who knows. But ⁓ it's amazing. Thank you. We'll definitely keep it on the set. So yeah. But you've had a fantastic, absolutely fantastic career. Great coaching career now that you can you know you're doing a lot of really great things off the field and I'm sure there are a lot of people that know of it and appreciate it and we really appreciate you coming on and telling your story. No worries boys. It's it's great to ⁓ to be on here and and ⁓ yeah, it's it's great that you're still spreading the news and and he and ⁓ especially focusing on the doggies. I love ⁓ and they gave me my first start and ⁓ hopefully they'll Whack Canberra next week down there. Sorry, Rick, but I play with sticky, but this will probably go out well after we do end up playing Canberra. But ⁓ fingers crossed the prom the you know prediction goes well. All right, mate, thank you so much again. ⁓ thanks for joining us on PAC Mentality and we'll see you next time.