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Hi, I'm Teena Raffa Mulligan, writer, reader, wannabe artist, and daydream believer.
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Welcome to Not the Plot, where we chat about the highs and lows of living a creative life, and my guests share an insight into their process, where they draw their inspiration, and how they find a balance between creativity and practicality.
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My guest today is Danica Patterson, a Brisbane-based children's author, workshop presenter, and former journalist.
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Her books aim to uplift, empower, and spark wonder while gently opening conversations about big ideas.
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Danica, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you.
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I'm so pleased to be here.
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Tell me why you write the books you do.
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Straight into the wonderfulness of the why behind it all.
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I write the books that I do to help children feel wonderful about themselves.
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So whether that be by connecting with the world around them and seeing themselves as part of that and sparking that beautiful sense of curiosity about the world, or whether it's doing that inner work in helping them feel seen in the pages of picture book for who they are.
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Why choose picture books?
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I just absolutely love the format.
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So I think there is almost no story that can't be told in a picture book form.
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It's just how we tell that story.
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So what I love is that we can incorporate some really quite big ideas and themes and concepts in picture book format.
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And sometimes, you know, that may offer a conversation spark or a springboard or a jumping off point for really big important conversations, whether that be around belonging and identity, children's rights, and all sorts of topics.
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So I just love that picture books can do that.
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And I firmly believe that picture books are for everybody, you know, adults included.
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Yes, I'm a picture book lover myself.
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It's wonderful sometimes to see a big idea expressed with such simplicity.
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How has your background in journalism helped you in your writing for children?
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Uh well, I have degrees in both journalism and psychology, child psychology.
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And whilst I've never been technically a journalist or a child psychologist, I have used those degrees in every single job I have had and every single thing that I do.
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So I think it's about learning to really listen.
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So a lot of the time when I'm creating stories, I'm observing the world around me, I'm asking questions, whether that be of children who I'm writing for or you know, subject matter experts.
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So really, really listening to the stories people are telling, um, you know, verbally and non-verbally.
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Um, and then sort of uh on the psychology side, that background in studying psychology has really helped me be able to uh deeply place myself in my character's point of view.
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With your latest book, what's the backstory behind that?
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Can you tell me a little bit about that?
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Yes, absolutely.
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So it is it is a uh a backstory that is a little bit unusual.
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So the turning point for this story, I started, I'd been working on writing a story um about four years ago about a little person, it was a human character to start with, um, who just it was a little bit different, a little bit different way of thinking and being and doing things in the world.
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And it was really important to me to write a story that um didn't make the difference, the protagonist.
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So that this little person was different and they were just happy doing their thing.
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And then um, because they thought the way they thought and did what they did, and they were the way they were in the world, they ended up saving the day simply by being themselves.
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The problem I had with this manuscript that I was working on at the time was that it was far too long.
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So it was sort of a thousand words to start with, and then I got it to 700.
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I just couldn't really get it under that 500-word kind of cap that we work with for picture books, um, you know, loosely.
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I was really struggling.
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It was about six months, and I was going back and forth and trying to edit it and trying to find a way.
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I just, it was one of those stories that something was missing.
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And then I took a little mini break and flew across to Western Australia.
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I flew um over to WA to surprise my sister-in-law for her baby shower on the occasion of her first baby shower.
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So my niece Emily was almost fully cooked.
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And so I had this rare opportunity.
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My mum, my sister, and I all flew over to surprise my sister-in-law.
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So we had brunch with my brother the morning we flew in at a cafe in Fremantle called Duck Duck Bruce.
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I am getting to the point, I promise, Teena.
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And this cafe was so beautiful.
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Um, the food was delicious, but the best thing about it was the way the menu was written.
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It was written so creatively.
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Every menu item was sort of linked to like a pop culture reference.
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So there was um Spice Spice Baby for the chili scrambled eggs.
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There was uh Orange is the new stack for the pancake stack, there was we're gonna need a bigger boat for the big breakfast.
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And I just found it so delightful.
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The word play was just so clever.
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And so this experience of this brunch at this cafe called Duck Duck Bruce, which has unfortunately since closed a few years ago, stuck with me.
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And so when I came back from that trip and I sat down to edit this story again, all of a sudden my main character turned from a human into a duck and told me to delete all the words on the page that I'd written and to try and tell the story in as few words as possible.
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And that's how we ended up with the story of Duff Duff Bruce, my latest picture book.
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And there's only 21 words in the entire story.
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So it went from something that was unwieldy and long and had too many words to a story with very minimal words that relies a lot on the visual narrative to tell the story.
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Yes, I've read the story and I'm always impressed at how few words can tell a story when you bring in an illustrator to interpret it.
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So, how is your experience of working with your illustrator?
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Oh, so wonderful.
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I was so delighted when EK Books decided to match uh this manuscript to Jasmine Barry because I have been a fan of her work for a while.
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I think the way she does characterization is really something special.
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There's just this um the way she uses colour and humour in her art.
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I'm I'm really a big fan of, so I was very excited.
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And then, yeah, working with with uh Jasmine on this book was amazing because uh her colour palette was really vibrant and I loved it immediately.
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Um, you know, I put a lot of illustrator notes by necessity in this manuscript.
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Usually I would avoid that and let the, you know, sort of illustrator have free read.
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And I thought, oh goodness, she's gonna get these 21 words, most of which are duck or bruce, and think, what is going on here?
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Why, why is this book?
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Uh, what is this book?
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Uh so I did put some illustrator notes in there.
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And what I loved was that Jasmine sort of took those and considered those, but and then came up with ideas in in many instances that were even better than anything I could have imagined, because you know, she's the expert at visual storytelling.
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So it was a really wonderful experience.
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I'm very, um, I'm very delighted with the way it's come out.
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You had an opportunity to work very closely with her then?
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Um, through the publisher.
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So we have not ever spoken on the phone, we have emailed, and so we be, and I've we've never met in person.
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Um, but through our publisher, so basically the steps uh were that a storyboard um was shared or some rough sketches were shared, first of all, and then a storyboard so I could see what Jasmine was thinking before she got too much into the details of it.
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And there was some back and forth there uh with our publisher, who the our working sort of editor/slash publisher was Anushka Jones, who's since left EK Books.
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But Anushka was really key in sort of ping-ponging feedback between us and also having some input at well as well.
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So it did feel like a team effort, even though we were working between Anushka was in New Zealand, I'm in Brisbane, and Jasmine is in Western Australia.
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So it's I love that part about being part of a picture book creation team because you can um work creatively with people who you've not actually, you know, physically met in the same room.
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So yeah, but it felt like a very close working relationship, despite the distance.
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Did you have any difficulties in finding a publisher?
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Constantly, always, yes, with every story, and still that continues to be the case.
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Um Duck Duck Bruce is my 23rd book for children, and I publish across a few different uh publishers necessarily because not every uh book I write is suitable for the same publisher.
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So I am very grateful every time a manuscript is picked up, and sometimes I do work on books that have been commissioned as well for not-for-profit organizations or charitable organizations, um, things like that as well.
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So not all of those books are traditionally published.
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I think maybe eight of my books are traditionally published.
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I'd have to count that properly, but approximately.
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And so it's always feels like a very long and intense investment of time to, you know, refine your manuscript, submit the manuscript, um, you know, work in collaboration and it's years really is the process.
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Um, so yeah, there's lots of lots more no's than yeses still.
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Um, even sort of what am I?
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I've had my first book, Jack Random Magic, was published in 2018.
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So we're eight eight years in, um, and there's still more no's than yeses, and that's okay because sometimes I'm writing the same thing, you know, as as a publisher's about to publish, and neither of us know about that.
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So it can be wrong subject matter at the wrong time, it can be the right manuscript at the right time, it maybe fills a gap that someone or a duck-sized gap in their publishing schedule.
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I do find it tricky and challenging, and it can be disheartening.
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Um, you know, when you think, oh, okay, I'm yeah, I've got a great relationship with this publisher, so surely they'll trust me to write the next thing.
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And so yeah, I'm I'm very, very deeply grateful each and every time a publisher decides to roll the dice again with something that I've written.
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How do you deal with the rejections when they do come in?
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I love a rejection when it comes in.
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I find it harder when it's met with silence.
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So often publishers will have a uh have a policy of wait six months or wait nine months.
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And if you don't hear back from us, then it's a no.
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I find that really tricky to deal with, A, because my time management sense of time is not very good.
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So I have to be like plotting in my calendar or my tracking spreadsheet.
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Okay, if you haven't heard by October 2028, it's a no or whatever, whatever the timeline is.
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And that feels like more work.
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It feels like I'm investing more time in my own rejection in that way.
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But I am, I feel really, really grateful and thankful if I, if on the odd occasion I do get um, you know, an email or response back from a publisher, even if it's just a couple of lines, that tells me why.
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I love to know why, because that's how we learn and grow through feedback.
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So I love if they say, no, I just felt like your rhyming was off, or no, actually, sorry, we've got 17 Bow Bird books in print already right now.
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Like whatever is the reason, um, I really appreciate knowing.
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And I know that, you know, a lot of publishing houses um don't have the time or capacity or resources to provide that individual feedback.
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So it's certainly not a criticism, but when it's possible, it's really appreciated.
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Do you research the market and try to fill gaps, or do you write what needs to be written by you at that time and then afterwards go and seek a publisher?
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Yeah, I'm very much need to be grabbed by an idea or have an idea grab me.
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Um, and I feel like I, if I were to try and write to a trend or to something that I thought would be commercially successful, uh, I don't know that it would have the same heart and soul and depth behind it as something that comes from me organically.
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So, no, the writing comes first, the story comes first, and then I'll sort of have a look around.
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And sometimes then I will see, oh, right, there's already a book in the world fairly similar to this.
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But I never regret the process of writing, even if what I write remains on my computer and it's just for me, I don't ever feel like that's a waste because I'm practicing my skills, you know, um, in the process of doing that.
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Speaking of process, what is your writing process?
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Well, my writing process is um it's a bit of a patchwork, usually.
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So I'm I work in a couple of other areas.
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So no two weeks look the same for me in my calendar.
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It's very patchwork kind of life.
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So I sort of have to lay out my week and then I look for gaps to write in.
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And so I'm paying attention to um anything with a deadline, first of all.
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But then if there's sort of that sparkly new idea that something no one's told me to write, but I really want to write, it's about finding the gaps to make sure that I've giving myself time to be able to create new things.
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So I don't I'm not much of a planner, I'm more of a panther.
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I can relate to that.
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I'm not very good at planning stories.
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Are other writers and connecting with networks of other writers important to you?
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Do they influence you?
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Do they support you?
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Do you need them in your life?
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Yes, I do, and I feel very um grateful that even though opportunities can feel as though they are sort of few and far between or scarce, you know, in children's publishing, particularly picture book publishing, I feel very inspired by the other authors and illustrators and publishers that I know that work in this space because I know none of us are doing it for glory.
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We're all, you know, everyone I've met at least is doing it for a really like a deep reason, you know.
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Um, our why is, you know, you know, so beautiful.
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I love asking people why they do what they do or where they write what they write.
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Um, so I think for that reason, it's a very supportive environment in an environment that you might expect coming in because of the perceived scarcity of opportunity you might feel is cutthroat or competitive, or you know, we put up our fences and defenses and we don't share what we're working on.
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Um, I haven't found it like that at all.
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I have found um, you know, just like lots and lots of support.
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I am fairly time poor with um the things that I'm stretched across sort of professionally and with my family and weekend sports.
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I'm sort of deeply in that zone at the moment of being the mum taxi to all the weekend sport commitments.
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So I don't get to go along to a lot of um the get-togethers that, you know, I'm part of the Queensland Writers Centre, I'm part of, you know, Squibby, I'm part of Book Links here in Brisbane, and I don't get to go to any of those regular meetings too often, maybe once or twice a year, if I'm lucky, uh, because they're mostly on the weekends.
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I would like to do that more.
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And I sort of feel like once my kids need me less, then that's more of a possibility for me.
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And so I sort of think this beautiful community is there, we've all got stuff going on, and um, you know, participate in the ways that I'm able to and uh connect in these beautiful connections happen.
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But I think that I I look forward to a time when I can, you know, physically be in the room more um with our colleagues.
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Yeah.
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Is social media important to you to connect then?
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I wouldn't say it's important to me.
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I would say it's necessary.
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I would say it's necessary and expected um for authors these days to have a social media presence or an online presence of some kind.
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If I could not do it, I would not.
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Uh and I feel like it's necessary.
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So it's funny because I sort of come from um one of my professional backgrounds is in marketing and uh content creation and all that sort of stuff.
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So I sort of have a deep appreciation for how it works.
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And I don't follow any of my own advice.
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I am a very like, hey, for my my own sort of author socials, I just post when I have something to say.
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I'm not consistent.
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I wouldn't follow any of the advice I would professionally give somebody else to run a successful social media campaign.
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Um I'm like the plumber whose toilet is broken or the painter whose house needs a little bit of a refresh because I just uh yeah, I think I've got a bit of resistance there because it feels like work, not play.
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Well, it's very difficult not to think of it as work because these days you really have to put yourself out there in some way, whether you're comfortable doing it or not.
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I guess the way I kind of shield myself from feeling like I'm overexposing or asking people, you know, uh people too much is I love to put spotlights on the illustrators I work with and talk about how wonderful they are.
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I love to talk about the subject matter of the books I'm writing.
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So right now it's jacaranda season here in Brisbane and the trees are starting to bloom.
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So uh that's something I can talk about that's not, you know, it's book adjacent, but not um book buying.
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So those sorts of things um are good.
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I mean, if you know, cute letters that we get from kids, all that sort of wonderful um stuff is really feels good to share.
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But yeah, the the the uh the whole, hey, book me for an event or buy my book, I don't think it will ever stop feeling awkward to me, even though I definitely want people to do both those things.
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Of course.
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Even though we write because it's it's what we love to do, the next step is actually sharing that with readers.
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We want to find those readers, whatever age they are, whatever genre we're writing in.
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What do you read for pleasure?
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Oh, oh, very widely.
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So I to ensure that I don't only read children's books, because I'd very happily do that, I um I run a community, uh just volunteer run a community book club here in um my little suburb in Brisbane near the Bay, called the Bayside Book Club.
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And uh it's run in the beer garden of our local bar.
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And there's, oh gosh, somewhere between 60 and 80 people sort of that come, but not every month.
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So we maybe have, you know, somewhere between 20 and 40 people each month as a sort of come if you can, everybody's busy, lots of teachers, you know, some retired teacher librarians, even, um, people in the community who who have moved here recently.
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Uh, so that keeps me reading widely because I I program that and to make sure that we have, you know, Australian writers, overseas writers, something from fantasy, something that's nonfiction.
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So I try and make sure we're reading in a wide variety of genres across the year.
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Oh, what are some of the best books we've read this year?
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Mad Mabel by Sally Hepworth.
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That was a recent read that I really thoroughly enjoyed.
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Uh, we've got coming up, oh Lenny, we did um, I've decided that August that grown-ups should read a children's book every August because of CBCA Book Week.
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And so we read one of my all-time favourite, YA is Lenny's Book of Everything by Karen Foxley.
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And so that was lovely.
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And then Karen actually came down.
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She lives in Namble, which is a couple of hours north of where we are here.
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She visited Book Club the month we read that and gave a little talk about the story behind the story.
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So that was a wonderful experience.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:21:00.720
We've got a couple of interesting, interesting reads coming up that I think will make for good book week photo yesteryear, um, which is a bit of a controversial read, and I think uh will be made into a movie in the next few years.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.119
And then Matt Hague's The Midnight Train.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.640
Those are sort of some of the things that I have on have on the go right now.
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.960
And then usually I always have an audiobook.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:15.440
I have a physical book and an audio book on the go because I do a lot of driving around, visiting schools and kindergartens to do workshops.
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:22.160
So I always like to have, and that's always a lighter book that I've got sort of going on on audio, so I can concentrate on driving.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:28.400
It's not nothing, nothing with plot twists and turns that's going to make me, you know, take my attention off the road.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.079
Uh good point.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:37.839
I'm just currently listening to uh a couple of Charlotte McConaughey's books after reading Wild Dark Shore.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.839
Now I'm listening to Once There Were Wolves.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.720
I'm enjoying paying attention to her wonderful way of using language.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.200
Every word seems to be chosen with such care and precision.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.440
And that's very common when you're working on and reading picture books.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:11.680
Because we have to think of each word, but you don't see it as much, or you don't get that sense of it as much in novels because there's so much more space to use in a WAB, in a novel.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.640
Absolutely.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:13.519
Absolutely.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:21.599
But there are so I think I'm trying to think, oh, Cita Walker's in a common hour is the book I've read recently that made me feel that way.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:28.319
I thought I just have to stop and read that sentence four more times because it's so beautiful and intentional.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:39.279
Like her language was, you know, sort of what you're saying there, just something that you think was chosen with such intention, um, you know, and fine, a fine amount of detail.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:39.920
Yeah.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.079
I'll have to make a note of that.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.640
That sounds like something I would like to read too.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.079
Highly recommend.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.319
I'll check it out.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:55.359
Uh, what sort of advice would you give to someone wanting to write picture books?
00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:58.799
Oh, and I do get this question a lot.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.720
Sometimes, you know, people email me and say, hey, I've got this idea.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:19.200
And I think defining um why you're writing it and how you want it to be in the world fairly early is key because that sort of then tends to point people in the direction of publishing opportunities.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:22.799
So, you know, is uh self-publishing an option?
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:31.200
You know, if it's a memoir for family and friends, for example, in picture book form or, you know, something for the grandchildren, is it, you know, for a specific community?
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:37.200
I had a friend who is an anaesthetist and he saw a lack of books about uh picture books.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.400
He wanted a picture book to prepare children about what was going to happen in a fun way.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:55.359
And so he he took long service leave and wrote one because he's an expert there and he sort of was able to, with humor and lightness and heart, tell this beautiful story about what it might feel like and the different options for going under.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.359
That was for a very niche audience.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.599
He really wanted that in waiting rooms, in hospitals and surgeries and all of that.
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.039
So he had a really clear vision.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:14.160
And then there are people who are looking for it to be a career or a significant, you know, hobby or side hustle or however, you know, they want to travel down that road a long time and are willing to put in the work.
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:24.640
And that's where, you know, maybe it's worthwhile seeking traditional publication or forming your own imprint to be able to enable you to publish your own books consistently.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:34.799
So yeah, some people are really happy, they just got one burning book inside them that they want to get out, and then others are sort of um, you know, like you and I, in it for life.
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.200
It does feel like that sometimes.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:46.319
So I must admit I had a a few years fairly recently where I wondered whether I would ever write anything again.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:57.359
That took me by surprise after more than half a century of always having a head full of stories, always be working on different stories of one kind or another.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:01.119
And then suddenly it felt like the stories were gone.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.519
They're back, but in a different way.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:11.039
I try and think about it, creativity in terms of seasons, because nothing in nature blooms all the time, does it?
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:22.480
And we can be very um, I think, hard on ourselves and with an expectation that we should always be writing or thinking of the next idea, or you know, but but there's nothing.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:27.440
There's nothing in nature that blooms all the time, and we're part of that sort of cycle as well.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:39.920
So to have that grace and kind of be able to sort of sit in the fallow years, I think is it's probably pretty important because I feel like it happens to us all to different different degrees.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.839
I think it does.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.759
I think probably it took me by surprise because I I didn't expect it to happen to me.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.240
I thought as long as I was breathing, I would be writing.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.839
That's how it felt for me from the time I was a little girl.
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.640
And to suddenly feel like I had no stories.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:11.920
I published books that I had already written and I supported other writers, and I continued to read and explored art.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.480
And then one day, just by surprise, I was out for a walk and I got a poem.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:19.359
And it's not the same now.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.039
I don't write in the same way.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.559
I've been writing a novel very, very slowly, but I'm not putting any pressure on myself.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.680
And I think sometimes that can come with age.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:42.480
You realise life doesn't have to be driven and fast-paced, it can be slower and more measured and just enjoy the moments as they come.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.839
It's been such a pleasure to chat with you, Danica.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:48.480
And you too, Teena.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:27:08.400
And I'm so glad that the the writing has returned to you, but I'm also glad for, you know, maybe the season when it was absent sounds like you've been lifting up and supporting, you know, all the community around us in a beautiful way that might not have happened to that extent if if you'd been, you know, continuing to write all the way through.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.960
So I think you've been an absolute blessing.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:12.240
Oh, thank you.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.079
What a lovely thing to say.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:21.119
Good luck with the latest publication, and I will be talking to your illustrator, Jasmine, before too long.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:22.240
Wonderful.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.960
Thank you for listening to this episode of Not the Plot.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:42.400
I hope you've enjoyed the conversation and will join me again as I find out the inside stories on the creative lives of writers and artists.
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:48.640
Until then, I'm Teena Raffa Malligan saying goodbye for now and happy creating.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:24.320
Hi, I'm Teena Raffa Mulligan, writer, reader, wannabe artist, and daydream believer.
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:41.439
Welcome to Not the Plot, where we chat about the highs and lows of living a creative life, and my guests share an insight into their process, where they draw their inspiration, and how they find a balance between creativity and practicality.
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My guest today is Danica Patterson, a Brisbane-based children's author, workshop presenter, and former journalist.
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Her books aim to uplift, empower, and spark wonder while gently opening conversations about big ideas.
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Danica, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you.
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I'm so pleased to be here.
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Tell me why you write the books you do.
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Straight into the wonderfulness of the why behind it all.
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I write the books that I do to help children feel wonderful about themselves.
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So whether that be by connecting with the world around them and seeing themselves as part of that and sparking that beautiful sense of curiosity about the world, or whether it's doing that inner work in helping them feel seen in the pages of picture book for who they are.
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Why choose picture books?
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I just absolutely love the format.
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So I think there is almost no story that can't be told in a picture book form.
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It's just how we tell that story.
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So what I love is that we can incorporate some really quite big ideas and themes and concepts in picture book format.
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And sometimes, you know, that may offer a conversation spark or a springboard or a jumping off point for really big important conversations, whether that be around belonging and identity, children's rights, and all sorts of topics.
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So I just love that picture books can do that.
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And I firmly believe that picture books are for everybody, you know, adults included.
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Yes, I'm a picture book lover myself.
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It's wonderful sometimes to see a big idea expressed with such simplicity.
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How has your background in journalism helped you in your writing for children?
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Uh well, I have degrees in both journalism and psychology, child psychology.
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And whilst I've never been technically a journalist or a child psychologist, I have used those degrees in every single job I have had and every single thing that I do.
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So I think it's about learning to really listen.
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So a lot of the time when I'm creating stories, I'm observing the world around me, I'm asking questions, whether that be of children who I'm writing for or you know, subject matter experts.
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So really, really listening to the stories people are telling, um, you know, verbally and non-verbally.
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Um, and then sort of uh on the psychology side, that background in studying psychology has really helped me be able to uh deeply place myself in my character's point of view.
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With your latest book, what's the backstory behind that?
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Can you tell me a little bit about that?
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Yes, absolutely.
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So it is it is a uh a backstory that is a little bit unusual.
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So the turning point for this story, I started, I'd been working on writing a story um about four years ago about a little person, it was a human character to start with, um, who just it was a little bit different, a little bit different way of thinking and being and doing things in the world.
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And it was really important to me to write a story that um didn't make the difference, the protagonist.
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So that this little person was different and they were just happy doing their thing.
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And then um, because they thought the way they thought and did what they did, and they were the way they were in the world, they ended up saving the day simply by being themselves.
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The problem I had with this manuscript that I was working on at the time was that it was far too long.
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So it was sort of a thousand words to start with, and then I got it to 700.
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I just couldn't really get it under that 500-word kind of cap that we work with for picture books, um, you know, loosely.
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I was really struggling.
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It was about six months, and I was going back and forth and trying to edit it and trying to find a way.
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I just, it was one of those stories that something was missing.
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And then I took a little mini break and flew across to Western Australia.
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I flew um over to WA to surprise my sister-in-law for her baby shower on the occasion of her first baby shower.
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So my niece Emily was almost fully cooked.
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And so I had this rare opportunity.
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My mum, my sister, and I all flew over to surprise my sister-in-law.
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So we had brunch with my brother the morning we flew in at a cafe in Fremantle called Duck Duck Bruce.
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I am getting to the point, I promise, Teena.
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And this cafe was so beautiful.
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Um, the food was delicious, but the best thing about it was the way the menu was written.
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It was written so creatively.
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Every menu item was sort of linked to like a pop culture reference.
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So there was um Spice Spice Baby for the chili scrambled eggs.
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There was uh Orange is the new stack for the pancake stack, there was we're gonna need a bigger boat for the big breakfast.
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And I just found it so delightful.
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The word play was just so clever.
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And so this experience of this brunch at this cafe called Duck Duck Bruce, which has unfortunately since closed a few years ago, stuck with me.
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And so when I came back from that trip and I sat down to edit this story again, all of a sudden my main character turned from a human into a duck and told me to delete all the words on the page that I'd written and to try and tell the story in as few words as possible.
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And that's how we ended up with the story of Duff Duff Bruce, my latest picture book.
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And there's only 21 words in the entire story.
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So it went from something that was unwieldy and long and had too many words to a story with very minimal words that relies a lot on the visual narrative to tell the story.
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Yes, I've read the story and I'm always impressed at how few words can tell a story when you bring in an illustrator to interpret it.
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So, how is your experience of working with your illustrator?
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Oh, so wonderful.
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I was so delighted when EK Books decided to match uh this manuscript to Jasmine Barry because I have been a fan of her work for a while.
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I think the way she does characterization is really something special.
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There's just this um the way she uses colour and humour in her art.
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I'm I'm really a big fan of, so I was very excited.
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And then, yeah, working with with uh Jasmine on this book was amazing because uh her colour palette was really vibrant and I loved it immediately.
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Um, you know, I put a lot of illustrator notes by necessity in this manuscript.
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Usually I would avoid that and let the, you know, sort of illustrator have free read.
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And I thought, oh goodness, she's gonna get these 21 words, most of which are duck or bruce, and think, what is going on here?
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Why, why is this book?
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Uh, what is this book?
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Uh so I did put some illustrator notes in there.
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And what I loved was that Jasmine sort of took those and considered those, but and then came up with ideas in in many instances that were even better than anything I could have imagined, because you know, she's the expert at visual storytelling.
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So it was a really wonderful experience.
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I'm very, um, I'm very delighted with the way it's come out.
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You had an opportunity to work very closely with her then?
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Um, through the publisher.
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So we have not ever spoken on the phone, we have emailed, and so we be, and I've we've never met in person.
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Um, but through our publisher, so basically the steps uh were that a storyboard um was shared or some rough sketches were shared, first of all, and then a storyboard so I could see what Jasmine was thinking before she got too much into the details of it.
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And there was some back and forth there uh with our publisher, who the our working sort of editor/slash publisher was Anushka Jones, who's since left EK Books.
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But Anushka was really key in sort of ping-ponging feedback between us and also having some input at well as well.
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So it did feel like a team effort, even though we were working between Anushka was in New Zealand, I'm in Brisbane, and Jasmine is in Western Australia.
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So it's I love that part about being part of a picture book creation team because you can um work creatively with people who you've not actually, you know, physically met in the same room.
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So yeah, but it felt like a very close working relationship, despite the distance.
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Did you have any difficulties in finding a publisher?
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Constantly, always, yes, with every story, and still that continues to be the case.
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Um Duck Duck Bruce is my 23rd book for children, and I publish across a few different uh publishers necessarily because not every uh book I write is suitable for the same publisher.
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So I am very grateful every time a manuscript is picked up, and sometimes I do work on books that have been commissioned as well for not-for-profit organizations or charitable organizations, um, things like that as well.
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So not all of those books are traditionally published.
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I think maybe eight of my books are traditionally published.
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I'd have to count that properly, but approximately.
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And so it's always feels like a very long and intense investment of time to, you know, refine your manuscript, submit the manuscript, um, you know, work in collaboration and it's years really is the process.
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Um, so yeah, there's lots of lots more no's than yeses still.
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Um, even sort of what am I?
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I've had my first book, Jack Random Magic, was published in 2018.
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So we're eight eight years in, um, and there's still more no's than yeses, and that's okay because sometimes I'm writing the same thing, you know, as as a publisher's about to publish, and neither of us know about that.
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So it can be wrong subject matter at the wrong time, it can be the right manuscript at the right time, it maybe fills a gap that someone or a duck-sized gap in their publishing schedule.
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I do find it tricky and challenging, and it can be disheartening.
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Um, you know, when you think, oh, okay, I'm yeah, I've got a great relationship with this publisher, so surely they'll trust me to write the next thing.
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And so yeah, I'm I'm very, very deeply grateful each and every time a publisher decides to roll the dice again with something that I've written.
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How do you deal with the rejections when they do come in?
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I love a rejection when it comes in.
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I find it harder when it's met with silence.
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So often publishers will have a uh have a policy of wait six months or wait nine months.
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And if you don't hear back from us, then it's a no.
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I find that really tricky to deal with, A, because my time management sense of time is not very good.
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So I have to be like plotting in my calendar or my tracking spreadsheet.
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Okay, if you haven't heard by October 2028, it's a no or whatever, whatever the timeline is.
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And that feels like more work.
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It feels like I'm investing more time in my own rejection in that way.
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But I am, I feel really, really grateful and thankful if I, if on the odd occasion I do get um, you know, an email or response back from a publisher, even if it's just a couple of lines, that tells me why.
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I love to know why, because that's how we learn and grow through feedback.
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So I love if they say, no, I just felt like your rhyming was off, or no, actually, sorry, we've got 17 Bow Bird books in print already right now.
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Like whatever is the reason, um, I really appreciate knowing.
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And I know that, you know, a lot of publishing houses um don't have the time or capacity or resources to provide that individual feedback.
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So it's certainly not a criticism, but when it's possible, it's really appreciated.
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Do you research the market and try to fill gaps, or do you write what needs to be written by you at that time and then afterwards go and seek a publisher?
00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.679
Yeah, I'm very much need to be grabbed by an idea or have an idea grab me.
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:19.679
Um, and I feel like I, if I were to try and write to a trend or to something that I thought would be commercially successful, uh, I don't know that it would have the same heart and soul and depth behind it as something that comes from me organically.
00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:24.799
So, no, the writing comes first, the story comes first, and then I'll sort of have a look around.
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And sometimes then I will see, oh, right, there's already a book in the world fairly similar to this.
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But I never regret the process of writing, even if what I write remains on my computer and it's just for me, I don't ever feel like that's a waste because I'm practicing my skills, you know, um, in the process of doing that.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.519
Speaking of process, what is your writing process?
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:53.279
Well, my writing process is um it's a bit of a patchwork, usually.
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So I'm I work in a couple of other areas.
00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.000
So no two weeks look the same for me in my calendar.
00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.240
It's very patchwork kind of life.
00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:06.720
So I sort of have to lay out my week and then I look for gaps to write in.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:12.080
And so I'm paying attention to um anything with a deadline, first of all.
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:24.399
But then if there's sort of that sparkly new idea that something no one's told me to write, but I really want to write, it's about finding the gaps to make sure that I've giving myself time to be able to create new things.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.759
So I don't I'm not much of a planner, I'm more of a panther.
00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:29.039
I can relate to that.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:32.080
I'm not very good at planning stories.
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:37.440
Are other writers and connecting with networks of other writers important to you?
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.879
Do they influence you?
00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:40.639
Do they support you?
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:42.559
Do you need them in your life?
00:14:42.799 --> 00:15:07.039
Yes, I do, and I feel very um grateful that even though opportunities can feel as though they are sort of few and far between or scarce, you know, in children's publishing, particularly picture book publishing, I feel very inspired by the other authors and illustrators and publishers that I know that work in this space because I know none of us are doing it for glory.
00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:13.200
We're all, you know, everyone I've met at least is doing it for a really like a deep reason, you know.
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:18.799
Um, our why is, you know, you know, so beautiful.
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.799
I love asking people why they do what they do or where they write what they write.
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:39.360
Um, so I think for that reason, it's a very supportive environment in an environment that you might expect coming in because of the perceived scarcity of opportunity you might feel is cutthroat or competitive, or you know, we put up our fences and defenses and we don't share what we're working on.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.360
Um, I haven't found it like that at all.
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.759
I have found um, you know, just like lots and lots of support.
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:53.440
I am fairly time poor with um the things that I'm stretched across sort of professionally and with my family and weekend sports.
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:58.639
I'm sort of deeply in that zone at the moment of being the mum taxi to all the weekend sport commitments.
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:15.440
So I don't get to go along to a lot of um the get-togethers that, you know, I'm part of the Queensland Writers Centre, I'm part of, you know, Squibby, I'm part of Book Links here in Brisbane, and I don't get to go to any of those regular meetings too often, maybe once or twice a year, if I'm lucky, uh, because they're mostly on the weekends.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.200
I would like to do that more.
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:22.559
And I sort of feel like once my kids need me less, then that's more of a possibility for me.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:35.440
And so I sort of think this beautiful community is there, we've all got stuff going on, and um, you know, participate in the ways that I'm able to and uh connect in these beautiful connections happen.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:42.960
But I think that I I look forward to a time when I can, you know, physically be in the room more um with our colleagues.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:43.360
Yeah.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.960
Is social media important to you to connect then?
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.240
I wouldn't say it's important to me.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.240
I would say it's necessary.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:17:02.159
I would say it's necessary and expected um for authors these days to have a social media presence or an online presence of some kind.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.400
If I could not do it, I would not.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.279
Uh and I feel like it's necessary.
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:17.599
So it's funny because I sort of come from um one of my professional backgrounds is in marketing and uh content creation and all that sort of stuff.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.160
So I sort of have a deep appreciation for how it works.
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.480
And I don't follow any of my own advice.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:31.519
I am a very like, hey, for my my own sort of author socials, I just post when I have something to say.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.880
I'm not consistent.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:38.559
I wouldn't follow any of the advice I would professionally give somebody else to run a successful social media campaign.
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:50.400
Um I'm like the plumber whose toilet is broken or the painter whose house needs a little bit of a refresh because I just uh yeah, I think I've got a bit of resistance there because it feels like work, not play.
00:17:51.279 --> 00:18:02.640
Well, it's very difficult not to think of it as work because these days you really have to put yourself out there in some way, whether you're comfortable doing it or not.
00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:17.680
I guess the way I kind of shield myself from feeling like I'm overexposing or asking people, you know, uh people too much is I love to put spotlights on the illustrators I work with and talk about how wonderful they are.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.559
I love to talk about the subject matter of the books I'm writing.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.880
So right now it's jacaranda season here in Brisbane and the trees are starting to bloom.
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:31.279
So uh that's something I can talk about that's not, you know, it's book adjacent, but not um book buying.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.359
So those sorts of things um are good.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:40.799
I mean, if you know, cute letters that we get from kids, all that sort of wonderful um stuff is really feels good to share.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:51.920
But yeah, the the the uh the whole, hey, book me for an event or buy my book, I don't think it will ever stop feeling awkward to me, even though I definitely want people to do both those things.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:53.119
Of course.
00:18:53.359 --> 00:19:00.319
Even though we write because it's it's what we love to do, the next step is actually sharing that with readers.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:06.079
We want to find those readers, whatever age they are, whatever genre we're writing in.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:09.039
What do you read for pleasure?
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:11.519
Oh, oh, very widely.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:27.519
So I to ensure that I don't only read children's books, because I'd very happily do that, I um I run a community, uh just volunteer run a community book club here in um my little suburb in Brisbane near the Bay, called the Bayside Book Club.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:31.359
And uh it's run in the beer garden of our local bar.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:38.319
And there's, oh gosh, somewhere between 60 and 80 people sort of that come, but not every month.
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:52.799
So we maybe have, you know, somewhere between 20 and 40 people each month as a sort of come if you can, everybody's busy, lots of teachers, you know, some retired teacher librarians, even, um, people in the community who who have moved here recently.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:20:04.319
Uh, so that keeps me reading widely because I I program that and to make sure that we have, you know, Australian writers, overseas writers, something from fantasy, something that's nonfiction.
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.319
So I try and make sure we're reading in a wide variety of genres across the year.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.279
Oh, what are some of the best books we've read this year?
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.319
Mad Mabel by Sally Hepworth.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:18.400
That was a recent read that I really thoroughly enjoyed.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:28.559
Uh, we've got coming up, oh Lenny, we did um, I've decided that August that grown-ups should read a children's book every August because of CBCA Book Week.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:35.279
And so we read one of my all-time favourite, YA is Lenny's Book of Everything by Karen Foxley.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:37.279
And so that was lovely.
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:38.880
And then Karen actually came down.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.079
She lives in Namble, which is a couple of hours north of where we are here.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:47.119
She visited Book Club the month we read that and gave a little talk about the story behind the story.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.279
So that was a wonderful experience.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:21:00.720
We've got a couple of interesting, interesting reads coming up that I think will make for good book week photo yesteryear, um, which is a bit of a controversial read, and I think uh will be made into a movie in the next few years.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.119
And then Matt Hague's The Midnight Train.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.640
Those are sort of some of the things that I have on have on the go right now.
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.960
And then usually I always have an audiobook.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:15.440
I have a physical book and an audio book on the go because I do a lot of driving around, visiting schools and kindergartens to do workshops.
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:22.160
So I always like to have, and that's always a lighter book that I've got sort of going on on audio, so I can concentrate on driving.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:28.400
It's not nothing, nothing with plot twists and turns that's going to make me, you know, take my attention off the road.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.079
Uh good point.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:37.839
I'm just currently listening to uh a couple of Charlotte McConaughey's books after reading Wild Dark Shore.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.839
Now I'm listening to Once There Were Wolves.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.720
I'm enjoying paying attention to her wonderful way of using language.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.200
Every word seems to be chosen with such care and precision.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.440
And that's very common when you're working on and reading picture books.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:11.680
Because we have to think of each word, but you don't see it as much, or you don't get that sense of it as much in novels because there's so much more space to use in a WAB, in a novel.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.640
Absolutely.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:13.519
Absolutely.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:21.599
But there are so I think I'm trying to think, oh, Cita Walker's in a common hour is the book I've read recently that made me feel that way.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:28.319
I thought I just have to stop and read that sentence four more times because it's so beautiful and intentional.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:39.279
Like her language was, you know, sort of what you're saying there, just something that you think was chosen with such intention, um, you know, and fine, a fine amount of detail.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:39.920
Yeah.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.079
I'll have to make a note of that.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.640
That sounds like something I would like to read too.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.079
Highly recommend.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.319
I'll check it out.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:55.359
Uh, what sort of advice would you give to someone wanting to write picture books?
00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:58.799
Oh, and I do get this question a lot.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.720
Sometimes, you know, people email me and say, hey, I've got this idea.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:19.200
And I think defining um why you're writing it and how you want it to be in the world fairly early is key because that sort of then tends to point people in the direction of publishing opportunities.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:22.799
So, you know, is uh self-publishing an option?
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:31.200
You know, if it's a memoir for family and friends, for example, in picture book form or, you know, something for the grandchildren, is it, you know, for a specific community?
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:37.200
I had a friend who is an anaesthetist and he saw a lack of books about uh picture books.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.400
He wanted a picture book to prepare children about what was going to happen in a fun way.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:55.359
And so he he took long service leave and wrote one because he's an expert there and he sort of was able to, with humor and lightness and heart, tell this beautiful story about what it might feel like and the different options for going under.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.359
That was for a very niche audience.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.599
He really wanted that in waiting rooms, in hospitals and surgeries and all of that.
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.039
So he had a really clear vision.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:14.160
And then there are people who are looking for it to be a career or a significant, you know, hobby or side hustle or however, you know, they want to travel down that road a long time and are willing to put in the work.
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:24.640
And that's where, you know, maybe it's worthwhile seeking traditional publication or forming your own imprint to be able to enable you to publish your own books consistently.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:34.799
So yeah, some people are really happy, they just got one burning book inside them that they want to get out, and then others are sort of um, you know, like you and I, in it for life.
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.200
It does feel like that sometimes.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:46.319
So I must admit I had a a few years fairly recently where I wondered whether I would ever write anything again.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:57.359
That took me by surprise after more than half a century of always having a head full of stories, always be working on different stories of one kind or another.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:01.119
And then suddenly it felt like the stories were gone.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.519
They're back, but in a different way.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:11.039
I try and think about it, creativity in terms of seasons, because nothing in nature blooms all the time, does it?
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:22.480
And we can be very um, I think, hard on ourselves and with an expectation that we should always be writing or thinking of the next idea, or you know, but but there's nothing.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:27.440
There's nothing in nature that blooms all the time, and we're part of that sort of cycle as well.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:39.920
So to have that grace and kind of be able to sort of sit in the fallow years, I think is it's probably pretty important because I feel like it happens to us all to different different degrees.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.839
I think it does.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.759
I think probably it took me by surprise because I I didn't expect it to happen to me.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.240
I thought as long as I was breathing, I would be writing.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.839
That's how it felt for me from the time I was a little girl.
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.640
And to suddenly feel like I had no stories.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:11.920
I published books that I had already written and I supported other writers, and I continued to read and explored art.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.480
And then one day, just by surprise, I was out for a walk and I got a poem.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:19.359
And it's not the same now.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.039
I don't write in the same way.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.559
I've been writing a novel very, very slowly, but I'm not putting any pressure on myself.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.680
And I think sometimes that can come with age.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:42.480
You realise life doesn't have to be driven and fast-paced, it can be slower and more measured and just enjoy the moments as they come.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.839
It's been such a pleasure to chat with you, Danica.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:48.480
And you too, Teena.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:27:08.400
And I'm so glad that the the writing has returned to you, but I'm also glad for, you know, maybe the season when it was absent sounds like you've been lifting up and supporting, you know, all the community around us in a beautiful way that might not have happened to that extent if if you'd been, you know, continuing to write all the way through.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.960
So I think you've been an absolute blessing.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:12.240
Oh, thank you.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.079
What a lovely thing to say.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:21.119
Good luck with the latest publication, and I will be talking to your illustrator, Jasmine, before too long.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:22.240
Wonderful.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.960
Thank you for listening to this episode of Not the Plot.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:42.400
I hope you've enjoyed the conversation and will join me again as I find out the inside stories on the creative lives of writers and artists.
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:48.640
Until then, I'm Teena Raffa Malligan saying goodbye for now and happy creating.
