Ryan Keberle

Danny: There was a time when I got high, but it is not What you thinking? I was up on the stage taking a page out of the book. I was reading, how we were shine. That stage I was both the pool wouldn't be there soon Hello, and welcome to Mere Mortals. Today we got the opportunity to speak with Ryan Kabberly, who is a somewhat difficult person to introduce with just a single statement because any one sentence fails to capture the breadth and scope of the work he's done. I could say he's one of the most consistently working trombonists in modern jazz, but again, that hardly covers it. he has worked with David Bowie, Alicia Keyes, Sophia Stevens, Maria Schneider, Winton Marsalis. he's played on multiple Grammy winning records, and he has multiple active projects, including Catharsis, which was my introduction to him, Collective do Brazil, Reverso, and Big Band Living Legacy Project. and on top of all that, he's the director of jazz studies at Hunter College, which he's been doing for over 20 years. So yeah, just it an incredibly rich musical career my connection with him was was rather random. It was just a I a friend of mine who a friend of the family, whom whom I've known since I was little. but he had a family connection to Ryan. And Ryan was coming to Seattle at one point to play a concert. And so this friend of mine was setting up a dinner for him and some other folks, and he knew that I was musician, so he thought I might. enjoy meeting him. I got I was lucky enough then to get to go to this dinner. and I just met Ryan very briefly. And you know, so then, you know, decades on, I reach out to him and I'm like, hey, we met really briefly at a random restaurant in Seattle. will you please come be on my podcast? And he was super gracious about it. And I was really glad that that he agreed to do it. Yeah, so I getting to talk to someone who is so knowledgeable about their craft and so eloquent and thoughtful in the way they describe their experience was just a real treat. so I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I very much did. thank you, Ryan, for talking to us, and thank you all for listening. Now here's Ryan Kaverley. All right. We are here with Ryan Kebberly. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. That's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on, guys. Yeah, absolutely. so one of the first things we like to talk about with folks is just kind of like your first your first exposure to music. I mean, you know, like in in looking at your background, like it looks like you grew up with with a you know some musical family, so like it may have just been something that you were you know that just was part of your existence, right? But I don't know if you have an early memory of either first experiencing music or the first moment at least that you were like, this is something I want to do with my life. Yeah. well both of my parents are professional musicians and my mom was a church music director. She's a professional pianist, you know, did her undergrad college degree in piano performance and taught piano lessons all through my childhood. So we always had people Playing the piano in the house growing up. And my father is a trumpet player and jazz professor. just recently retired actually from Whitworth University, where he ran the program there for 30 plus years. so and then actually my mom's both of my mom's parents, my my maternal grandparents were both musicians, music educators. my grandma was a junior high choir director and my grandpa was a high school band director. And in fact, he started my dad on trumpet. My my parents were high school sweethearts. So it's deep. Like the music is deep. And then my dad's side, he had a brother who sadly passed away, but was a professional contemporary classical composer based in Europe for many, many years, and then went on to to teach at universities here later in his life. And my my dad's dad was a really good violin player, although he became a a judge. But all that to say like music was not only in the family, it was just it was kind of an ethos on both sides of my family. It was just everything was music all the time. That was the way we connected to each other, both socially and I think emotionally. I mean I didn't realize that at the time. It you took measure Therapy sessions later in life to to learn all this, you know. But The trumpet was our affection. Exactly. But yeah, music was everywhere. my my earliest childhood memory or one of them is standing on a little makeshift podium of like books as a three year old conducting f faux conducting along to Vivaldi's four seasons, which my mom tells me was my favorite song. when I was young. Which season was your favorite? I think it was winter, you know, that's the winter. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. that is kind of the jam. Exactly. Exactly. The s the single off of seasons. The single, exactly. But my my first kind of musical performance experience would have been playing the violin. That was my first instrument. My parents started me on the Suzuki method, which when you're that little, I think I was four when they started me They don't even give you a violin. They give you like a cardboard box and a toilet paper roll that'll like tape together. So you just kind of use that to learn how to hold it. And then a little bit later they'll give you a a bow of some kind. And then eventually you get the pi the violin. And when you're that small, they have a I think it's a quarter size violin. So the thing is it's so small. I mean it's it's comical how small this little thing is. Yeah. And I worked my way through all the Suzuki books all the way into high school. I kept playing violin. I played in like my youth orchestra and really always loved violin and I think that's one of the reasons that classical repertoire, even though it's not something I actively play anymore. it was a huge, huge part of my my upbringing and my my childhood. And my mom primarily played classical music as well. And my dad was more into jazz w later, but he was definitely more classically trained and classically oriented. So that's a really important part of my musical background. and and my mom started me on piano just a couple of years after that. So also, you know, all my early childhood memories are are playing and practicing every day. I I really like practicing. I don't think my parents ever really had to make me practice. But, you know, I can remember at least an hour every day playing the violin, playing the piano. some days many more than that. so and that was for years. Like I didn't start playing trombone until like the typical whatever is beginning band, I think fifth grades, I think it w it usually is. So for me, I I'd already been playing music for like, I don't know, a long time at at that point already. so yeah, it just it it was everywhere. We had a family band growing up, you know, it's it was yeah, like looking back, that's that's that's the sole reason that I'm a musician. There's no there's no way around it. Like and I always knew I would be part of my life in some regard, although I Did I think maybe I don't know why looking back I did this, but I originally went to Whitworth for a year as a physics major. I really loved math. I've always loved math and and science, but it dawned on me like after sitting in a computer science lab working on C code, you know, in 1999, trying to make a ball bounce around the screen, you know, after like six hours, I was like, I really should be in the practice room right now. So and so the from there I went all in. I I transferred out to New York to to a conservatory there, Manhattan School of Music and you know, the rest is history. But yeah, anyways, yeah, music it's it was everywhere growing up. That's really cool. I I'm reminded of is it Brian May, who is also a physicist, and like used his his physics background as part of the recordings. I think he also had something to do with one of the recent like Moon not not Moonly, Mars landers anyway, that's really cool though. my partner studied physics and I work in I'm a software developer, so that that sort of push-pull between the the sciences and and music. But I do think that they go together quite well. I think there's a lot of synchronicity there. I think it's the logic, personally. I think I think music is at least Western European music, it's it's all logic. and it's layers of logic, you know, layers and layers and layers and layers and layers. And it's also not like obvious, at least in good music, you know, it's not like it's hitting you over the head with it, which I think a lot of a lot of great math and sciences like that as well. But it's like when you start digging into it though, you start discovering all of these patterns. Yeah. Yeah, music is all patterns. I struggled growing up with math a bit and it wasn't until I was in, I don't know, maybe eleventh grade or something like that that I had a really good math teacher who was able to kind of disguise it a little better and sort of Sort of find ways to be like, maybe you didn't notice, but like here's a way math is really cool and here's a way you never pay attention to it that's impacting things constantly in a way that's cool and interesting and fascinating. And then I got really into it and turned out I could do math. I just needed someone to say like, Hey, maybe not all brains work the same way. There's another way to learn. I tricked you into learning, sucker. Yeah, pretty much. One of those good good teachers. I I think it's kind of fascinating. It dawns on me when you were talking about your upbringing. I I grew up with no musical family. Like no one in my family played music. I think there was someone related to my dad that had been a pianist distant, you know, but like it really wasn't around much growing up. But I would I think when I hear about that, I wonder how that impacts your perception of what it means to succeed as as a musician, growing up in a family where you see and are around working musicians who are working in the arts. you know, maybe not necessarily in an environment where they're playing arenas and and going to the Grammys, but they're working every day, they're making a living out of it, they're providing, and they're doing so as music teachers, as, you know, theorists and players. And I guess how does that when you were getting into you know, getting into college and considering like, okay, maybe I want to switch majors here, how did How was your perception at that point in time of success and of being a working musician? Were you thinking like do you think your upbringing kind of had you going like, well, this is something that people can make a living at and do as a career? Or were you thinking I'm gonna go tour the world and be a famous musician? Like what w what were your aspirations there and how was that impacting? I think and part of this might also just be my personality type, but I think that being surrounded by music and and so many examples of various avenues of of professional musician work. I actually think it caused me to take a lot of it for granted in in that I didn't think about it at all. Like I I don't recall ever even worrying or wondering if it was possible. Like it was of course it was possible because it was all around me. All these people are, but but even beyond that, it's just even asking the questions like, well what what I like to be doing as a professional musician. Even that I always it was just always about the music. It's like I was it the music looking back, the music took me in all these different places, but that was had nothing to do with my it almost feels like I was just along for the ride. Like I wasn't even in control of the trajectory. The music was in control and just took me in all these different places. But I think definitely that had something that lack of like forward thinking or or or dreaming of various avenues. I think it definitely had something to do with just kind of taking it all for granted. Yeah. Well that's a way to frame it. And it makes sense and and there's a humility in that, which I can respect. But at the same time, there's when you are surrounded by it, it wasn't take you're not taking it for granted because it it it's real. And it was real. And you and when you see that many people in your life who are doing that for a living, it does show you like This isn't something to fear. for a lot of a lot of musicians coming up, you have parents or other family members going, Okay, but what are you really gonna do for a job? Because you can't be a musician. Like that's not you know in your family, was it like when you started studying physics, they were like, Well, you can do your like have fun with a little math or whatever. But let's focus on something practical like music. I think it was, honestly. Yeah, I d I definitely think it was. Yeah. That's kind of incredible. No, absolutely. So that takes us up to basically you mentioned being the Manhattan School of Music. You were also at Juilliard, which is pretty incredible. so like I I mean I guess at that point, like, you know, I think that's a you know, like how do I want to say this? At that point, that's kind of like you're you're you're an adult at that point. You're working with an adult brain, right? And it's a time when I think a lot of us do make decisions. Like no matter how we're brought up, like we might be brought up with, you know, just kind of sort of immersed in in whatever our family is. Like you came from musical family, you know, what y people come from different kinds of families and like but college or you know, university is a time when in your life when you kind of think like, well is this is this really what I you kind of commit to it. Yep. You know, like emotionally and and intellectually. D was there a moment in there where you feel like you made the active decision to pursue being a musician versus the just having it passively thrust upon you? I don't think so. I think the only the I think the only difference would have been as I graduated Juilliard, and I and I would have been about twenty three at that time and you know, living in New York and actually my wife and I were already living together. We hadn't gotten married, but she had moved out to New York as well to to go to college. And just being faced with the reality of a very expensive cost of living, you know, combined with the lack of real money-making opportunities, at least in like a steady money-making sense. I I do I did seek out kind of regular musical work. And my first job was very interestingly. playing piano and singing for an old Catholic church on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. And I went I I I had done some church mu well, my mom was a church musician. So I knew maybe that also goes back to that that, you know, folks those those those elders providing you with opportunities. Okay. So I knew that was a possible career path. Right. And I had a friend who was doing some church music work in New York and He told me, I have another buddy who just left this church. I know they're looking for a pianist and also a singer. And I happened to do both of those things, although it wasn't what I was trained to do, but it was what I actively had been doing in throughout my my life to that point. So I went down to this church, cold c cold knocked on the door, and you know, this like Dominican priest opened the door and took me in. He said, Play me something and At that time, luckily, I was still very actively practicing piano and I played him a bronze intermezzo, which is like a very impressive piece on the piano that I think I kind of blew his mind a little bit. And he's like, Of course you have the job. You it was almost I think he was almost like, Why would you want this job? you know, but it was a regular job. And so I did four services a weekend, one on Saturday afternoon, late afternoons, like five thirty, and then three on Sunday morning, early Sunday morning. and I would play the piano, I would sing. I wasn't Catholic. My wife is Catholic, so she had to give me a crash course in like four days on the entire Catholic liturgy. since ninety-nine, good. So there were definitely some like awkward comical moments there, you know, like you're supposed to jump into whatever the next song is, and I'm just sitting there and the priest looks over at me and he's like, Let's go with it. Exactly. But I did that for six years. It it really paid the rent for six years. And those are always the hardest years. I mean, for anyone, right? But especially for an aspiring artist. when even when you're succeeding, quote unquote, you're not making money. so it really gave me that like cushion. and I learned so much in the process. I learned a well, I became a much better pianist, I make became a much better singer. the only service that wasn't like a ghost town was the ten P ten AM Saturday Spanish Mass. And there that one was packed because it was right by this huge housing complex where that was primarily like first second generation Puerto Rican and Dominican immigrants. Dominican Republic immigrants to New York. And so I also learned quite a bit of Spanish. I had to sing the entire liturgy in Spanish every week. wow. Yeah. All the hymns in Spanish. I got to play with the there were like some local musicians who would come and play. And so I learned about their musical traditions and that was really, really fun. Like that was a very eye opening experience for, you know, a kid from like white bred Spokane. Sure. that was a really, really great opportunity for me just to kind of learn about the world. And yeah. And then, you know, as I started becoming busier, another early job for me was playing in wedding bands on trombone, which was another really good way to make money at that time in New York. Every Saturday night, every Friday, Saturday night you'd have gigs if you were lucky. But what that meant was I'd get home Saturday at like two in the morning from the wedding gig and then I'd turn around. leave at 7 a.m. for the church kids Sunday morning, you know. So it was I was it was dues paying for sure. Yeah. Wow. That's that sounds brutal. I definitely wanna I mean I I mean I feel like there there's, you know, with listening to your music, there's obviously a lot of different cultural influences and I I'm definitely curious about you know, how much some of those experiences, you know, kind of got you set off on a path where you explored other you know cultural music traditions and that sort of thing. But I I wanna touch real quick first on like at at at this point, did you have a model in mind like did was there anyone that you looked at where you were like, wow, I wanna be like like that person, right? Like I wanna I w I wanna work hard and get to a point where, you know, like I I have this kind of goal where I wanna I wanna have a career that looks like like this person's or looks like this somehow. Yeah, definitely. I think so for the first ten years or so in New York, my professional life as a jazz trombonist. was v a and especially in terms of like moneymaking opportunities was was what you would call a freelance musician. And there were absolutely some folks of the older generations that I looked up to. there was a is a trombone it's actually he plays in my big band. I we we still love to to hang and play his name as Mike Davis, who was, you know, top call Broadway musician, top call recording studio musician for the film tra film soundtracks that were being done in New York at that time. he was in the horn section for the Rolling Stones. You know, he was doing kind of what I would wind up doing in a d in in a related but different way. But then there were others like him as well. And and and most of these guys were trained in jazz. They were jazz trombonists but then they wound up having this fruitful freelance career that included playing hip hop and RB and rock and classical And and that's ultimately what I wound up doing as a freelancer. And I think like fr from a musical perspective, that's basically it means having to learn a ton of different musical languages. And that's I think how I was able to succeed as a freelancer in New York and and achieve the get and find those opportunities that I found was I was able to pick up on musical languages really quickly and I totally I think owe all that to my childhood, you know, going back to that, just growing up with music all around you, because as a kid you develop these language synapses in your brain. And for me it was musical language synapses. But in my opinion, they're they're the same synapses. That's so interesting. Can you talk a little bit sorry, can you talk just a little bit about musical languages and some of the differences between different genres or different types of music and kind of Yeah, I think there's like gen there's like broad differences and then there are real instrument specific differences, both of which are important. But you know, the broad differences would have to do with like groove is a big one, maybe th maybe the biggest. if you get into like folkloric music, you could also get into things like intonation, different pitch you know, different ways of tuning sets of notes. I didn't really have to deal with that. I wasn't doing like any Arabic music or like I don't know. There's certain there's certain far eastern musical traditions where they actually use it a completely different tuning system. But for me it was a had a lot to do with groove, rhythmic feel. I think it also ha it definitely has to do with phrasing, the way that melodies are crafted, the length, the shape, the nature of their rhythms, and then the way that those Phrases are developed, the way that the mel melody tells the story, that really changes, I think, from from genre to genre. But I ultimately, I think what allowed me to to be so successful at this was I never thought about the differences. For me, it was like it it was more about the similarities. Like there were so many more similarities and differences. And I think because I grew up in this musical family and learning different languages as a three, four, five year old, I think that process yeah, was just very natural. So I never really had to like analyze it in any real deep ways, which I think usually when you analyze those things, that's when you start looking at the differences. So because I didn't have to go deep into the analysis, I think it was more usually more about, well, this is the same, this is the same, it's just gotta do this. as a trombone, from a trombone perspective, there's there are some big differences, the way, the tone that you use, the way you articulate the notes, the way you start the notes, the way you stop the notes, the kind of vibrato you use, the way the different things you're listening to in a band or blending with or trying to match, you know, the way like it's hard to play like those different grooves I mentioned. It's hard on a trombone, on any instrument to to to to realize those different feels in your music, you know? Yeah. So that that like looking back, that that was a huge, huge influence on who I am as a musician today, just having all those different opportunities to learn from various musical cultures. I think that's such a key thing that a lot of young musicians might not keep in mind. There's such a rigidity to sort of like, This is my instrument, this is my genre, this is what I care about. And maybe it's like, cool, that's you know, great. I appreciate the other stuff, but without letting yourself sort of dip into those other things and be able to pick up on those parts of the musical language and culture and everything, you're maybe kind of shooting yourself in the foot, not being able to open yourself up to whatever bigger opportunities might come down the road if you follow that thread. Yeah. I mean as as a as as an aspiring musician, in in the end, you know, and I do a lot of teaching, so that's how I I think a lot about this, in the end it's just about what you're able to hear and w however much detail you can hear, you can then figure out how to execute or realize those sounds on your instrument. And the more musical languages you expose yourself to and you and you actively try to learn, the be better listener you're becoming, not just to that language, but just in general. And then you go back to the musical language that you love, the like your home genre, and you're gonna hear way more detail. So like I feel like I'm a much more swinging jazz musician. Because of the countless hours I spent trying to learn how to play Colombian fandango music, which is this crazy marching music from the mountains of Colombia. And like when I first started listening to it, I couldn't I couldn't feel one. I didn't know where one was. And it took me weeks and weeks and I get and and I was getting to play with the Colombians, so like that was the big thing. I was learning from the source. But after that process and and now feeling totally fluent and familiar in that language. going back to jazz, like, I f could hear and feel so much more detail in say like the swing groove of Jimmy Cobb versus Philly Joe Jones. Like I could hear more. So and I I think that's overlooked oftentimes, especially by young folks. Yeah. Well I love how you're talking about your your you're drawing the analogy to languages because but it almost sounds like you're talking about are the people who have the wonderful experience of growing up in in in multilingual Households or multilingual communities, right? Where you know you grow up like and you're absorbing these things. And of course, when we're young, we're so much, you know, faster at absorbing these things. But the more things we we are able to sort of like fluently and and natively understand, the the broader toolbox it gives us for communication and empathy and understanding. And yeah, no, that's fast. I mean, I remember hearing at one point the the idea like something so basic to us from a Western ear as like major being happy and minor being sad. And there like for people outside of a a a a Western music tradition, they don't hear that. No. Like it is not necessarily like, you know, it which is just fascinating because like I don't think really any of us who grow up in listening to Western music can remember a time when we learned that major was happy and minor was sad, right? In the same way we don't remember learning some of the basic words we use. So when Western music is often taught as fundamental or natural. That's just how your brain feels about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also very cultural, extremely cultural. That's interesting. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, at this point, you know, like after at like at what point did you start getting into a place where I mean like you've got you Again, going back to your resume, like so many incredible people you've worked with, so many incredible bands you started, like at what point do you feel like, you know, and y you're you're doing these sort of the sort of freelance work. When did your career kind of as it looks more now, like when did that start to take shape? Like when did you start playing with some of these, you know, these bigger names, forming your own projects? Well, I think actually those are two separate parts. I think most of the big names I played with, I w happened when I was freelancing. and so, you know, in New York playing every night in different projects, a couple of big breaks that were not only important like from a resume perspective, but also oftentimes those big breaks open new doors. You know, you meet new people and a few of those big breaks would have been playing with Winton Marsalis, that that was a big break. Playing with Maria Schneider was a big break and meeting all sorts of really important jazz musicians. my jazz career would really kind of take off through some of those connections. And then as a freelancer this guy Mike Davis I mentioned very early on, he started calling me to play on movie soundtrack recordings in New York, which was some really big breaks for me because they actually don't e exist anymore. They were kind of on their way out at the time, but there still were a few happening each each year and getting just getting to know that world because that wound up being a world I really loved. I love the recording studio, I love the commercial kind of music industry, I love the pressure. that you that you feel when you're in those environments where it's like you have to be on the first time. Everything's gotta be nailed. Not only perfect, but like it's gotta be musical, you know, first and foremost. and so that was a big break. Another big break was and this is a long story, this is like almost another podcast, but I did wind up playing on Saturday Night Live when I was, I don't know, twenty-four or twenty-five years old. And really hit it off with Lenny Pickett. And ever since then he's been like a real mentor to me. I mean, I used to send him like my albums and he'd give me really honest critical feedback and it's hard to find that as you guys probably all know. It's like to have those mentors, those real critical voices, supportive but but critical, like honest feedback was crucial. And I've since played on Saturday Night Live, I don't know, thirty, forty, fifty times since then. so that was a big break. And then the other real big break from a commercial standpoint was getting the getting called to play on in the heights, which is like one of the great Broadway musicals of in in history, Lynn Manuel Miranda's first musical. And it won the Tony Award, it ran for three years and I met tons of important musicians. I wound up being the person calling all of these great trombonists in New York to sub for me, including Mike Davis. He was out of a show and so he would come and sub for me and getting to return those favors for like my heroes in the scene was really important. and it you know, so it was through all the it was during this time that a lot of the like pop acts that I that you see on my resume that I w would have been p playing with the recording with or performing with and then it all kind of culminated in two thousand ten and eleven and this brings this is full circle because be before we started rolling I was asking you guys about these Seattle indie rock musicians that I know. Well, I got to know them very well because in two thousand ten and eleven I did a world tour with Sufjan Stevens. From his Age of Odds album, which is this trombone heavy album. We toured around the world literally for a year. And it was and that actually was also kind of the end. The Broadway show closed that time. I was I started I was teaching full time right around then as well, so I was I had less free time to be freelancing and I learned on the the Sufian tour, well among many things, the guy is a utter genius. but one of the things I learned was that In every town we went to there were like three thousand young people desperate for creative music. And yeah, his music's accessible, but it's really, really creative. Yeah. And some of it is very it's demanding as for listeners, demands your attention. And I never really thought much about pop music until then and I realized wow there there is like there is really there's possibilities to connect with like maybe a more mainstream audience but still making creative music, you know? So that's when I started focusing more on my on my own band leading career, composing more. I formed my first band, Catharsis, and really started to try to like build something grassroots with them in in Brooklyn and started touring with them and recording more. So and that's like the last fifteen years since then has been much more focused on on band leading, composing, arranging for me. That's really cool. I watched your tiny desk concert yesterday. Really enjoyed it. thank you, man. It's fantastic. And the band leading was it's just beautiful. thank you. And now we do a Sufion song. We we we start the whole thing with a Sufion song, so full of That Sufion like I so that tiny desk concert is like one of my like comfort watches, like like ever since I I discovered it, it's like I probably watch it at least weekly. wow, thank you, man. And when you're talking about the sort of like patience that people have, I think the song is sister, right? That that you guys yeah. And the I think what's fascinating about that song, and Kenny, I promise I'm not trying to stomp over you. I'll let you stomp away. Stomp away. I think it's fascinating because like the that song has such a long instrumental introduction before any vocals come in. Yep. And I know Jason and I, I like I can remember specific instances where Jason and I worked with producers where you know we've we've done something too long instrumentally and they're like, put vocals in there, what are you doing? You're you're losing everyone, you've lost me. I played this for my wife, she hated it. Get some vocals in there, right? no, his wife hates it. That's important. That's my number one, man. Yeah, no, absolutely. It it's valuable feedback. But but yeah, no, I I like I I think that's just a great example of how, you know, there are a lot of people out there who are patient and and like seeking creativity and yeah. Any anyway, s Keddy, I'm sorry I interrupted. I just yeah. No, not at all. And I think that was that's you led right up to kind of where I was going with it anyway, which was to say that I I really love what you're talking about about All these people all over the world who are gonna go see a a kind of mainstream artist. I guess if you could call yeah, you could call Swifty on Stevens a mainstream artist. Yeah, yeah, relatively. I mean if you're if you're including jazz with classical and like avant-garde music into the picture, then definitely mainstream. Yeah. But when you talk about going and seeing there's three thousand people in in these theaters or, you know, who are they really they might not even realize that they are starved for something more interesting, starved for creativity, starved for someone who's gonna maybe push the limits of expectation a little bit for them. And it's so cool to me and so important how we can find the accessible parts about pop music, and the accessible parts about rock and and just mainstream music in general, and how that can kind of be the sneaky little back door into like really opening people up to what we're doing, to what we care about, to like the best things about creating art. and how how I guess I I want young people out there who are listening who are coming up and who maybe do have a genre they love. Maybe you're like super into hardcore, maybe you're, you know, super into dubstep, like whatever your thing is that you're making, it's important to recognize that if you really want people to understand the little tiny niche, you want more people to get this, there's a way in. And being willing to meet them in the middle a little bit so you can then welcome them into like the art and to the creation and to like the nuance. is important. Without those pop songs, maybe you it's harder to get people to say yes in the studio or at an arena to your four minute musical intro before the vocals come in, you know. But once they trust you, once they like what you're doing already, then they're gonna say, All right, I know I I'm willing to sit here and see where this is going. That's it. And I think that's fascinating and really cool. Yeah. Yeah, please go ahead. No, I was just gonna say I never would really experience that because I all my other performative experiences were primarily playing jazz and classical music. And then what if it was pop or rock, it was like wedding bands, background music, you know, or like horn section, just kind of like very tired kind of examples of what that music is. But to see it like living and breathing and this really creative way of making music that Sufjan and and his colleagues were were finding was yeah eye opening for me. That's beautiful. Absolutely. I think you know there there are other I heard your cover of Fool on the Hill which I think is another great example of, you know, people love the Beatles and everything, right? It's it's great to cover cover a Beatles song and I've heard plenty of Beatle covers that are very, you know, authentic. But you guys like your take on that was just Wild and I loved it so much. You know, like I I didn't even realize it was Fool on the Hill until the vocals came in. I was like, but it's totally Fool on the Hill. And yeah, doing that sort of thing is is a great way to bring people in because then it I mean, hopefully to Kenny's point, like it's opening people's minds and introducing them to you know, music that they may not have even sought out otherwise, which is really cool. Yeah. That's it. Speaking of creativity and people who are incredible at Bringing people in with pop and melody and then showing them something they didn't expect or subverting expectation. I saw that you have David Bowie amongst your credits. Yeah. Can you talk a little about how that came up to be? Yeah, one of the one of the masters of what we're talking about for sure. well, so it turns out that David Bowie was a like lifelong Closet Maria Schneider fanatic. That makes so much sense. It totally does. And I think like every time so she had a very early in her career, she had a Monday night gig residency for three years at a club called Visiones down in Greenwich Village. And I think that's where he first discovered her. And this was like over 30 years ago. so this would you know, this was like peak of his or maybe just just after the peak of his career. But I think he'd w anytime he was in New York on a Monday, he'd go down and listen, like incognito. I don't think she even knew. I don't think many people knew. But at some point, I don't know how they connected. I don't I think he might have reached out to her. I think he sent her an email. I I vaguely remember her telling me that she she got this email, you know, from David Bowie and just thought it was some kind of joke. but but yeah, they connected. He expressed interest in collaborating. And this was much later on, right? This was in so this was the period leading up to Black Star. So this was like over ten years ago. And I think he might have even known he had cancer at that point and he was kind of like, okay, bucket list time, you know. My I I don't know this for a fact, but maybe that's why he reached out to her. But they they chatted, they decided they would collaborate on a song, and as part of the creative process, David, Tony Visconti as bassist and producer, Maria, myself, Donnie McCaslin, and the rhythm section that Donnie and Maria kind of put together for this project. It wasn't necessarily her rhythm section, it was a few different people that Donnie hadn't had worked with. We all got together in a little rehearsal room in Midtown Manhattan for like two or three three days, I think, and just workshopped the song that they were co-composing. And yeah, that means I was just hanging with David Bowie for like hours and hours and getting to hear what he had to say or what he was thinking and actually he didn't say much. He was extremely deferential to the jazz musicians in the room. Because he I think is like kind of like I don't know about failed jazz musician, but he's definitely a closet jazz music he that's the music I think he wanted to play growing up and he never did. And so he has this reverence and deep respect for the music and the people who play it. And then shortly thereafter we went into the recording studio with her with Maria's full orchestra and David Bowie and Tony and we recorded the track and David laid down some scratch vocals and then I Donnie and I stuck around and we laid down some solo takes over the top of it. and then shortly thereafter David and and Donnie McCaslin continued to work with each other and wound up making the album Black Star. Yeah. and that was with the same people that we were workshopping that that previous song with. So the the song is called Sue or In a Season of Crime, if you want to check it out. It's an awesome song. There's a couple different versions, I think, but they're all with the Maria Schneider Orchestra. yeah, it was it was a epic moment for for me because I've always been a huge Bowie fan. And sure. yeah, I was just struck by just how how how much humility and how like grounded of a person he was and just like zero ego, at least not in the room with us. and but also very honest, very direct, no bullshit, just like yeah, just seemed like the consummate, consummate artist, consummate, just a really good human being. I w that's that's so nice to hear, you know, that s somebody after he passed, there was, you know, a lot of people were saying, anytime you Feel down, just remember that you got to exist on the planet at the same time as David Bowie. And like he he has always held this sort of like godlike status for so many of us. But anyone I've ever met who has kind of been in that circle, been near him or or just briefly met him or whatever, has said that he seemed to really make an effort to not be the rock star or anything, was just a a very nice down to earth person, a a Quick tangent, I was listening to Amy Polar's Good Hang podcast, and she had Nick Offman on, and he was talking about when he first met Aubrey Platza or no, sorry, other way around. Aubrey Platza was talking about when she had met him and said that they were sitting around on set, nothing was really going on, and PA came up and asked, like, hey, can I get you anything? And she said, you know, I'll I'll take a coffee, sure. And Nick Offman turned to her and said, You know, you can also get your own coffee. And she made this realization of like, I don't need to be like taking advantage of PAS. Like I I'm just a person. I can do my own shit. And that that I love just hearing, you know, when celebrities at at that pretty massive level are down to earth good people, like there's there's hope for me. See people be cool. Yeah. We we were kind of taking bets on like we just assumed that it was like you had gotten some sort of like through his people to your people, like, hey, we want you to record this thing. And then maybe at the end you got a signed headshot with a thank you note that wasn't even personalized. Right? Like Yeah. Cause you never know when someone says, I worked with so and so. It's it could be any number of like I was in a room with them to like I got an email and I sent them a scratch track and they added it in later. Yeah. So it's that's really special that you got to spend Real time working. Quite a bit of time, man. And especially no one on one time, but like really intensive time in the creative process, like getting to see his wheels turning and getting to hear the kind of feedback that he had during the creative process, the kinds of things that he was thinking of or aware of, you know, was w really interesting. That's fantastic. Absolutely. Kenny, do you want to ask? I mean, I feel like we're I I wanna be cognizant of time and You know, Kenny, you've got your question that you like to ask people about this point. I do. I I so I try and always ask everyone this, and it's it feels trite after just hearing that story, frankly. But what I always ask people, is there what's kind of the biggest show or the biggest performing moment, the biggest moment you've ever had with success or with fame where you were able to stop and look out and go, my god, I can't believe this is happening. and then in contrast to that, or perhaps the same. Perhaps different. What is sort of a favorite performance moment you've ever had? A favorite show you've ever played, a favorite time you've ever been on stage or working with people? Man. Both hard questions. I mean, I think in just in terms of the feeling of stardom or starstruck, maybe would have been that first time on SNL, partly because I was so young and green. I mean, honestly, I I played almost every episode last spring because the regular trombonist Steve Terray had a hernia s surgery. So like from February twenty five through May twenty five I played every episode. and so that and that was the most I'd ever done sequentially like that. And and you know it definitely becomes maybe a little bit less special or a little bit less nerve certainly less nerve wracking. You just kinda start learning the drill a bit and know where things are. But it's still when when It's live you know, it's Saturday night. Yeah. Man, and and y you can't help but think how many millions of people are watching, listening you live and you're playing it's really hard music. It's one of the hardest gigs that I've ever done as a trombone player. and you know, so you're like dealing with this demanding music and then you got millions and millions of people listening or watching live. Like it it still is a very star struck moment for me. But yeah, as a young person, I mean, I think I was almost I I don't even hardly re I don't have any vivid memories. I think I was so freaking nervous and just so overwhelmed by the moment. That makes sense. We I I play a New Year's Eve show where we would do a lot of covers. We'd spend like four hours just playing all the hits from the decades and stuff, and people would dance and party and stuff. But every year we would talk about like how are we gonna end this? How are we gonna end this? What's the song? We would change every year trying to come with a Good closing for the night. A night where you've been playing like Queen and Madonna all night and stuff. It's like, what are we gonna do for the last song? Yeah. And we realized a few years ago, we can end with the closing song from SNL. Yes. And so we we started playing that at the end of the night, and it completely cemented immediately. The first time we did it, the whole audience just started swaying, holding each other, crying. They've been dancing for four hours, and all of a sudden that song is so ingrained in our society and our psyche that, like, as soon as people hear that. Banum. Yep. Banum. It's just everyone just loses it. And and it was a song where we then while it was playing, all the people who had been working all night could all say, like, thank you so much for being here. Like, we don't want to think you know. And everyone could come up and say goodnight. And it was just it's just such a perfect vibe. And it is. It's a weird song. Like when you actually that's Lenny. I mean, he's written most of that book. He he's an incredible composer. People sleep on his composing skills. He actually released Some really cool recordings last year with a a duo with a drummer that you guys would enjoy. I think just search his name is like the most recent thing. Because he doesn't actually release that much of his own music. but this is a really it's a really cool project. yeah, that still has that I still have that feeling with that project. But you know, at the and then on the same time it's it's a side I'm a side man. I'm playing one of Six horn parts and I'm playing trombones, probably the least important instrument in the band, you know, from the outside perspective, not from my perspective. But ours either. Yeah, but you know, then like but then I like I just got back from Europe three nights ago and and getting to play my own music in my own band. Well this band is kind of a collectively led trio, with two other Parisian bass musicians, Paris based musicians. But that band we've been playing together regularly for a decade now and it's just one of those one of those magical instances of of like everything that that that I love about live music and about real working bands and about kind of a shared set of performance practices and shared musical language and very much improvised bass so like just all three dealing at this very high level of of creativity and and instrumental ability and like the music can go anywhere and every night it's different and like so for me like those are that's a highlight, you know, and that was just a couple nights ago. So I feel very, very lucky to be a part of to to kind of be living some of some of the h musical highlights in at this moment. And I don't know if that will always be the case. I hope it is certainly it that's very much where my focus is is just kind of maintaining that. It was on kind of cultivating it, but I feel like okay, now we've arrived at this place, how do you maintain it? Because that's also a lot of work. but yeah, when you're up when you're on stage in those moments, especially like we had just released an album last month and so we've been touring a lot, playing the same music, and so like we all had the music memorized and everyone everyone really loves this batch of repertoire and is happy to be there and it's yeah, it's it's Doesn't get any better than that for me. So like that's definitely a highlight. That's beautiful. We recorded a few of these now, and almost every single person, the answer to the question of their favorite is like within the last few months. It's like it's like the last one or a very recent one. And it's interesting. It tells you that as artists, like we love that we're doing it. Yeah. And that we're st you know, and it's That's it. Well, and we're always getting better, you know. We're always whatever that means, but we're always growing. And so of course, whatever you're doing now with your With with your skill set of this moment you're going to probably feel better about than last year or the year before. Ideally, yeah. Yeah. Or we're just very prone to recency bias. Maybe both a little of both. Could be both. Cool. Jason, do you want to ask the other question that we tend to ask at the same time? What is other question that we tend to ask? The the advice yes. yeah, you know, the that that general question of any advice to aspiring musicians and especially just I think going off of that last bit of the conversation about recognizing that now is sort of the culmination of everything I've ever done and and being Present, being aware, not spending too much time being like, well, whatever this is is fine, but I'm really going to get to this other place. I love that you said like kind of feeling like I've made it and now how do I just sustain this? so that's a great segue into what sort of along those lines, advice might you give younger, newer, aspiring musicians? Yeah, well, I think maybe most generally, and I wish I I s I I someone actually did give me this advice and and it's I still think about it. it wasn't until much later in my career, but I would say patience. You have to have patience. Patience for your own growth as an artist, patience for the whatever you define as success in your career to come, patience in finding opportunities. yeah, because it's just it takes time. There's there's you cannot speed the process up. I would say, I tell my students, like you got to plan on at least a decade before you're going to be in a position where you're doing what maybe you hope to be doing right now. And by then it's probably that's gonna probably look different. You know, by by then you're gonna probably be hoping to do something else. So you may or may not ever achieve what you're hoping to do now. But you had just patience staying, enjoying the the ride, the present moment, you know. but then maybe more specifically to music, I think that now more than ever, and we touched on this briefly, I think young people just have to s have to spend even more time than maybe we all had to spend on becoming better listeners because everything they're trying to achieve as a musical artist has to do with their ability to listen. And like I said earlier, they you can only achieve what you can hear. You can only recreate or create what you're able to conceive of and and more specifically hear or having heard before. That like those are your own personal reference points. You're not gonna be able to sound great if you don't know what that great actually is. You know? and so that takes also takes time, takes a ton of time. It takes unbelievably Detail oriented, focused listening. Listening to music as background music is not gonna get you there. I mean, not that that's bad, but like that's not active practice for what I'm talking about here. and then also understanding that like because it is a for most 99.9% of the population, because it is something that just gets slowly better and better and better, your elders, those people that maybe you look up to, are hearing way more detail than what you as a young person are hearing. And just keeping that in mind because that's where you can learn. Like that's that maybe one of the ways you can speed that process up is by picking the brains, ears, so to speak, of your elders, of of your heroes and trying to talk. That's why it's so great to talk about music with especially with older people. But with anyone because everyone's hearing differently, you know, we all hear different things. But especially with your elders, because it's they've just got those years on you and you can't replicate those those years. So just trying to hear more, be be better listeners, be more patient. and everything just gets more fun as a result. as you know, like tangentially, it's just a nice little side a little side note that like, actually everything that you love about music becomes that much more colorful and that much more yeah vibrant in that. process. I think this applies to lots of other things in life too, but I I I like that like I think the core of that is the intention, like intentionally listening to music, not just like I'm gonna throw on my favorite album while I'm driving around and sing along to the lyrics that I love, but really focusing in on it and kind of dissecting it that way. Actively participating in experiencing things. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, which helps you stay present too. And and then then I think that also helps you become more patient. Like it's all connected. You know, like you have to have the patience to become a good listener as well. But these are all qualities that young people struggle with these days for obvious reasons. And so I think it's even harder. Like it was hard for us, but it's even harder now. There's so many distractions. So Well, but that that actually is a good segue into the the sort of a pile on question that I wanna or follow on question anyway that I wanna ask, which is, you know. living in the the moment that we're living in, sort of politically and and just in the world. I think a lot of young people have a lot to express, right? And a lot of feelings to work through. And there's also just kind of like the push pull of, you know, does art even matter in a world where there's so much suffering going on and and and so many cataclysmic things happening? but you know, because politics seems to be something important to you and that you've woven in into your music. I y I'm just curious if you have any thoughts to communicate to to people who want to sort of balance those ideas and and you know work political messages into their art or use art as a way of of expressing I don't know. Yeah, that's music as social change. Right. Yeah, I mean it's very important to me, as you guys know. and I think my philosophy has changed a little bit. I think I use when I was younger, I was maybe a little more direct, a little more overt. I think it I've learned since then that just inherently creating good music, f connecting with people hopefully who are listening to it in the way we were just discussing, that inherently is making the world a better place because you are doing all sorts of things. You're you're helping people well, you're creating beauty and you're making someone's world maybe a slightly more pleasant place to to be. You're helping others include and yourself become better listeners. And one of the beauties of becoming good listeners to music is I think it also helps you become better listeners with each other, with other human beings. Yeah. and of course that's a huge deficiency right now in our culture. And but I think also just good art in general, it it makes people think. It makes people question what the the the status quo. It makes people maybe help them think for themselves, help help helps them become more independent in forming their own opinions and decisions, maybe a little bit more skeptical about what they're told, which we'd certainly need a bit more of of today. I mean, like I don't think there there are not many jazz musicians who are okay getting their news on TikTok. Let's put it that way. You know, like those two things are mutually exclusive. So you know, it's like I think it's all I think I've learned that yeah, what we do as artists is just inherently helping make this world a a better place. And so I I may be a little I'm less direct about it now. My big message right now and our last catharsis album, Music is connection, attests to this. It's just trying to use this message of music as a means of connecting through sound, through vibration, through resonance as a way to bring people together, community building, as a way to start dialogue and maybe, you know, connect across political divides in different ways, I think for me is is where I'm at at the moment. That's fantastic. Beautifully. before we wrap up here, are there any projects that you're excited about that are coming up soon that you want to talk about? Anything you want to shout out in particular? I've always got a few things. I one of the nice things about the pandemic, because a pandemic, man, that was rough for me. That was a really You know, musically speaking, it was really, really rough. And as I mentioned, music for me has also been my my socialization, you know, and my it was ever it was my whole life. So but one of the silver linings was that I built up a backlog of recordings. And so now I always have like ever since I seem to always have at least one or two records in the can that are gonna come out next year. So that's been really nice. Like I've always had something that I know is already done and it's So yeah, I do. I have a Brazilian a new Brazilian album coming out with my Brazilian band, Collective do Brazil, this fall. And there's a slight chance we might be touring in the Northwest. It's a long shot at this point, but I'll throw it out into into the universe. Yeah. in which case we'll definitely find our way to Seattle. featuring three of the most genius Brazilian jazz musicians from Sao Paulo. So cool. I'd love to see that. they're so they're so good. I I can't you know There's a lot of great Brazilian musicians in New York and who I love. but th these guys are all slightly younger than me and they they're master Brazilian musicians. They're all playing with like the top Brazilian musicians of of the day. But they're all like their passion is jazz and they all grew up learning how to play jazz b from listening to the live stream at Small's Jazz Club in New York. Love it. And they're like they're really they're They're unbelievable jazz players now. Like the internet, you know, just shrunk shrunk the world in that way. So and so there these Brazilian musicians loving to play jazz. I'm a American jazz musician loving to play Brazilian music and we found this middle ground in our band. and we reimagine Brazilian songwriting because from the sixties, seventies and eighties, some of the greatest songs, in my opinion, ever written. came from that era and so we use these beautiful songs as vehicles to reimagine them in like a jazz kind of format. Nice. yeah, it's one of my favorite projects. So we got a new album, it's all Joao Donato music, which is real funky kind of groovy music. yeah, and then and then the other big thing for me, this past January I recorded my very first big band record. which was a huge undertaking. And so that's gonna come out next I think summer twenty seven. So I gotta gotta a minute still, but that's that's gonna be a big thing for me because up until now I'm not known as a big band composer. I'm known as a a big man sideman or someone who's played in a lot of big bands and but the compositional aspect of it is is new to the outside world. So I'm excited to try to like make that statement artistically. Yeah, that's a nice big step. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's awesome. That's so cool. Congratulations on everything you've got coming up and everything. Thank you. I appreciate the support here and it's been a pleasure chatting with you all. Yeah, back at you. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us and yeah, best of luck to you. Thanks, guys. Wow. does anybody else here feel like questioning whether or not they should call themselves a musician after that? I wasted my life trying. The whole point of the podcast being like appreciate what you're in while you're in it and don't like compare yourself to other people and then we just talk to people that I can myself too. And I'm like, Well, time to throw in the towel. Never gonna be Ryan Kebberly. I from the jump when he started talking about like, you know My parents are musicians, their parents are musicians, my uncles, my aunts, everyone I know is a musician. Like, you I was surrounded by music. I was just like, I'm so envious of that. Like I really wish that I had grown up with that just being the norm. I feel like I started playing when I was I'm like 10, maybe, with any seriousness. Like I tried a couple like different horns and woodwinds when I was in elementary school, as you do, but like got a guitar when I was 10 or 11 and then got really into it. But I would have really loved to have been in a family when you were like growing up, six or seven people were just jamming and there were instruments around all the time and people playing and you were going to see your f your family in concerts and stuff and like that sounds really nice. And I think it's a fair point that it could drive you away from it as much as it could drive you toward it, probably to be around it all the time. But I don't know. I felt I feel a tinge of jealousy and and awe about about having that sort of I'm leg up's the wrong term, but like that kind of like support. The environment. Yeah, the environment for creativity. And then normalizes it. Yes. The the way you're telling it kind of reminds me of those stories about like I don't remember Jason probably like there's a like some of the people who were like the kids of the people who are in the traveling Woolburries will tell stories about like them all getting together and not realizing Like they were standing in front of a living Mount Rush one But yeah, I mean it kind of reminds me of that. Like I was thinking about the Trovin Wilberries as Kenny was saying that, and when I was a teenager, my grandma told me that when she was young, her parents I think like her mom sang and her dad might have like played guitar or fiddle or something, but Like, yeah, we just had like a piano in the house and like friends and family would, you open door, whatever come in, and people just like sit around the table and have a little like fiddle piano guitar sing along, jam or whatever. Very similar to like what some of the Wilbury stories are. And I remember thinking, like, man, I'm like jealous or whatever. I wish that I'd had that. but then maybe I wouldn't have turned to music as sort of a way to this for old people, not doing that. I mean, yeah, it it was something that I ended up you know, in my teenage years being like gravitating towards as some sort of like rebellion or something or something that I could do that was new and loud. and I wonder if I would have gone in the same direction if I had always just like had music or if I would have just been like, ugh, gotta get out of the family business and go to law school. Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the Julian Lennons of the world and like other other like famous musicians of fame famous musicians and and I think like Did they do it because they were like, I love this and it's what I've always wanted to do, or do they do it because at some point they were like, Well, I could always be a famous musician. You know, like I guess if I don't know what else to do with my life, I could pick up a guitar and immediately get a record contract. Which is like that conversation we had with with Ryan where he was going to school, like studying physics and and you know, it was like, Well th you know, like sure you could do that silly little math stuff, but music is obviously Yeah. One word, kid, music. Go practice. Get get yourself to Manhattan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ryan was so sweet. really, really nice. I Danny, thank you so much for introducing us. I love when I meet someone who's been doing a thing I love their whole lives at a high level who I've never heard of. You know, and it goes to show that like the whole industry is filled with with side players and behind the scenes workers and people who are making a a living and a difference and impacting your favorite albums who aren't trying to stand and at the very front of the stage all the time and you know and I kind of appreciate it. So talented and and knowledgeable. Yeah. Yeah. You just get to be there and get to work and and Ryan gets to work. Yeah. Yeah absolutely. I love that. Yeah. What did he say he'd done like forty or fifty episodes of SNL? That's thirty or forty yeah, yeah. Like dozens. Yeah, it was dozens, right? Like that's yeah. To hear somebody be like, yeah, you know, like I I am a session musician and like I got to play on SNL or whatever, like that's very exciting. But to play like dozens of times, whatever, like now man, so you get invited back, you become part of the thing. Yeah. You're part of the legacy at that point. Like a legacy of whatever it is, fifty years of Saturday Night Live. And it's as much as there's been many seasons of it, it's if you actually do the math, like it's a a small group of people that have gotten to be on Saturday Night Live. yeah. Yeah. And it's so that's That's pretty f pretty high level stuff in my mind. That's yeah, yeah. That's success. And Ryan was full of success. you know, when you when you try and measure what being a musician means in terms of success, there's a few different ways to do it. And some of it's how much money you make, and some of it's who you've gotten to meet and play with. And Ryan is winning at who he's gotten to meet and play with. Yeah. Like just killing. On scale from Suzuki to David Bowie, where would you put yourself? Yeah. But there was also like a lot of I don't know, like there's a lot of relate relatability in a story. Like we're we're s kind of focusing on how different his experience was from ours. But like you know, I I started out like I I'm a I'm a violinist and I started out being cle like one of my first actual jobs was actually playing at a church. Like he said he w like that that was like some of his I mean he was obviously doing a lot better than I was. but But you know, like there's there's also just this kind of like, yeah, you know, like just kind of Figuring out the the the jobs to get and the things to start doing and just kind of work your way up in an industry, like that's a very you know, when you kinda take the the you know, all the the the the fate you know, the I don't know, the the big music component out of it, like it's a very relatable story, right? Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. And like, to your point, super relatable guy and like very down to earth and like I don't know. You could tell he's got his thing going on and he does it and does I don't like I love when you think about stuff like that, like I've played with David Bowie, I've played with Alicia Keys, I've been on Center Man Live a whole bunch of times. I've met met and worked with all these jazz legends. and then you also can tell that a part of him's like, I get to lead this like Brazilian, you know, jazz group and that's what I'm really into right now. Like you know what I mean? And that's like part of part of being a successful musician is finding the things that really bring you joy and that you really want to be doing and that are driving you and inspiring you and digging into that and the rest of it'll make its will work itself out, you know. Yeah. I think for the most part. And d you know, of course also there's him saying like he practiced a lot. He practiced a lot. yeah. yeah. Yeah. Ryan played a ton. Like he was, you know, surrounded by music, talented, sure. But like you really want to get to that level, especially the next level where like someone's looking for a a trombone player and there's a million of them out there and they call you instead. Yep. That's because you've put in the work. Yeah. Well I think he and I'm y like he just embodied the idea of the the sort of working musician. Right. Yeah. yeah, I mean talking about like you know, give it a decade or or whatever, like not expecting things to come to you super quickly and and having patience and learning from others along the way. and That's a great just like path to continuous growth and but yeah, like you said, you know, give it at least a decade, like when you're trying to make it or whatever, you just have have patience and stick to it of nice. Yeah. But I think to your point, Kenny, like just the idea that you know, the stuff that from the outside seems exciting, right? Like the the the marquee would say all these like big names, but but for him it's about the the sort of personal reward of it, right? Like just You know, doing things that you enjoy and and and that give you you know, sort of artistic reward. And just the fact, you know, like that's amazing, right? You and you know that like you're willing to do the work and that you love this thing when you're like, I'm gonna go knock on a church, knock on a door of a church and ask if they need an organ player. And then I'm gonna like Learn Spanish. that's right. So I can so I can be the the band leader in a Dominican Catholic church in the New York and like you know, it's just a gig. It's a day gig. And when you're like I don't know. There's definitely been points in my life where I wanted nothing more than to have a steady everyday gig playing music. And I would not have cared what kind of music I was playing or where I was playing it or who I was playing it for if I got to play music every day. And pay my rent and buy my food with it, that would have counted as succeeding. Yeah. completely. You know, and I would have I would have I think that like, you know, start there. Like, you know, play, learn to play, practice, of course, do all that, get get good at your craft. But then when you feel like you're ready to go out in the world and you should be making it, you should be working, this is what you want to do with your life, don't hesitate to take the gig. And you know, if you can find a steady gig that's gonna work you and gonna help you like Work on your chops every day and play music every day and get better at it every day and learn something new while you're doing it. Like take that job and hustle for a minute. and sooner or later someone will see you doing it. And I think that's really the key too. Like, you know, I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about this a number of times just among ourselves and also with with other folks, like the idea that there was a time in like, I don't know, late nineties, early two thousands when it wasn't like cool to know too much about music. Right. Right. It's like just like play and like, you know, vibes it band. Like, I don't know, whatever. But like, you know, the fact that he, you know, not only you know, because I I also think that, you know, for a lot of musicians or artists, like you start out kind of like exploring a bunch of things and you kind of find your thing and you kind of like go deep on that thing, right? Like that kind of ends up being your focus. Like, I'm a ex-musician, I'm a Y artist or whatever. But like it's just incredible to me that he's continued to Just explore these like I I what did he say? Something like you won't you can only play what you what you hear or something like that, right? What you can conceive of, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just it's it's it's a really cool lesson. You gotta listen to a lot of music, you gotta explore it, you've gotta see the world, you've gotta have your ears open to it all. And yeah, I think really good listeners are always gonna be the best musicians, the people who are actually critically listening to arts and paying attention to it and thinking about those little differences and like why someone made a choice in a song. you know taking joy in what you don't know. Right. Like like being being excited about something that that was, you know, unfamiliar to you and then and then learning about it instead of being like, that's that's not my thing. Right. And having the patience to be critical and to listen to things critically, to like actually to not just passively listen, but to actively listen to to music. To sit down, say I'm gonna check this out. Throw your headphones on. Stop doing the other things you're doing. Instead of listening to music while you're driving or doing dishes or going for a run, throw your headphones on, sit down in a chair, close your eyes, and just sit there and listen to it. Yeah. And pay attention to it and think about it, reflect on it and be active. Take an active an active role in the thing that you claim to care so much about and love so much. Yeah. I just sticking on that line, I read like a Reddit thread or something yesterday about television characters who we're told are geniuses, but we never see them do anything genius. And like the first example was Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory, and like we're told that he's this super genius, but we never see him do anything like remotely smart. And people in the comments that were like, Because the people that were writing for him were not super geniuses. You have to be very smart to write very smart things. And that I mean, I was just reminded of that through that like you can only create what you're able to conceive of. Like I can practice the stuff that like I have written over and over and over forever and get it the best it's ever gonna be. And it's nowhere near as good as something else that somebody who had a better idea than me was gonna do. And then I steal that and put that in my catalog, and then that becomes one of my ideas so I can stretch and grow. And Danny and I have talked about like whenever we would do tribute nights cover songs or whatever, and I'd be like, Man, I really feel like I'm like becoming a better drummer, be kind of becoming a better guitarist through like learning these songs. Part of it was like, well, you're learning to play styles that aren't how you would normally write. And part of it is well, you're practicing. So when you actually And you are you're actively and critically listening to other people who are really good at it. Yep. Yeah. You know, like what I definitely I've played a lot of those those kind of gigs too and I've definitely had moments where I was like working to learn like a Paul Simon guitar part. And I was like, huh. Yeah. Well, that's a different I never realized that's what he was doing there. That's that's really, really clever. Yeah. I guess Paul Simon's good. Hot take. Hot take it. Yeah. Yeah. I you know, it's it's something that I've kind of enjoyed about this podcast also, is that like when I'm doing prep for, you know, some of these conversations. I'm listening to stuff that I may you know, whatever. You get to a certain age and a lot of people are just like, okay, I found my music. This is the music I like. It's frozen in time. 13. It doesn't go beyond 2006. That's it. You know, like or whatever. Even that's a little bit late for me. but but you know, like I've been you know, it it's it's kind of put me in a place where I'm activ again, like you said, actively listening, right? and that's really cool. so yeah. I do think that there's something I'm really starting to feel my bad technology habits and like miss an era where I was like, you know, I used to just like have times in my day where I didn't where I had nothing to do, where I had to sit and wait for something. Or stand and wait. I didn't have a phone to look at. I didn't have a video to watch. I just had to like Yeah. Like a weirdo and just had to sit there and stare blankly out a window. Like and I was like, man, that was probably a lot better off. Like I probably had probably did better thinking, more thinking. Yeah. Yeah, I get back to it a little bit. Yeah. I I was thinking on the same notes of what you were saying about like you have to be a genius to write genius stuff. I immediately thought like, should we have elected Aaron Sorkin to be president? Cause the West Wing was really good at it. It made politics look really smart and and and you know, one might even say altruistic. A much more entertaining view of politics than the current drama were I don't know about entertaining. This shit's arguably pretty entertaining, but like certainly a better world to live in. I'd rather maybe in fifty years it'll be entertaining to be back on. But yeah. I'd rather live in Martin Sheen as president world than the current celebrity we have. I mean I think that's actually a good segue too into what I kind of wanted to sort of talk about toward the end here is just like the The the idea that like, you know, Jason and I have have also talked about this, and then you know, I think a lot of musicians explore this idea of what is the importance of music or art in society? Like if if something really bad is going on, if shit's hitting the fan, is making music or art a waste of time? Right? Like, but I think when Ryan was talking about the you know, ta w going along the lines of like the that you have to have patience, you know, plan on taking it taking time. you can only create what you can conceive of. Also what he was talking about was like, you know, talk to the people who have made music before you. Like use it as a way to connect people. Like for him, music is like not just a sort of nice to have, it is an integral part of what makes us human and what makes us connected, not only to each other and our peers, but You know, to the generations before us and the generations after us. Like he's a teacher as well, right? So I I really loved that because, you know, there are times when I think, like, why why am I even doing this? Right. It doesn't, it doesn't make me money, it doesn't fix any any of the bullshit that's happening right now or whatever. But but I but then it made me feel like, cool. Like I felt proud to be a musician talking to him, right? Like for you know, whatever three people out there may have heard something I did. And it was like, you know, that improved their lives somehow. Like, I don't know. It it made that feel more meaningful. I like that. That's really nice. I think I think that's a good way to look at that. There's music does play a really important role in social change. Art always has and it always will, and empires will come and go, but the art that's made during those times remains and persists beyond the actual empires that are there. And that's always been the case. And No matter how bad shit gets in the world you live in, remember that the art that's being made during that time will outlast it. Yep. so you know, don't ever be afraid to take part in making that art and having something to say and finding a way to say it. We didn't really talk very much about catharsis with with Ryan. The band or the concept? The the band. okay. His his band. There we go. that right? Yeah, I don't think we yeah, we didn't I mean, yeah, we talked about it a bit, but yeah. Yeah. there's a lot more going on there with art and politics converging. yeah, they did at least a record that was all kind of just about yeah, kind of a very political record, right? Yep. I don't remember which one that was, but but yeah, I mean like and it's tough, you know, like to you know, I think, you know, we again we talked about this before, but like how do you like how do you talk about stuff without being too on the nose, right? In a way that that dates it so like it's not relevant at at some point in time. But I think, you know, with a project like Catharsis, I'm trying to remember like one of the first songs on that record, it has a really cool like repeating line. I'm gonna have to look it up now because I've forgotten. but you it's more timelessness. Yeah, everyone, hold on, wait for me. But it's more like you it's just like timeless messages of like connection and like, you know, empathy as a means of working through societal challenges and and you know making us better as people, right? Yeah. That's cool. I think that it's it's easy for people to it's easy for artists, for musicians to shy away from talking about what's going on because It is intimidating, not only for like the very real reasons that like we're when you're living in like a more fascist society or or government, there's literal potential repercussions for speaking up against authority. But beyond that, just the social implications of like, what if I don't say it s smart enough? You know, like what if I don't make my point poetically enough or articulate it well enough, and then I just come across as being another trite asshole saying Fuck this guy or I hate this thing or down with that thing. And and it can be kind of trite, but like I would rather I would rather hear a bunch of bands saying trite shit about how the times need to change than than a bunch of trite shit about their girlfriends. Yeah. You know, it's like like that's the reality. Like, if what you're saying about politics is gonna be trite and non-articulate, guess what? Everything else you write is gonna be. Yeah. So like don't be afraid to at least talk about something meaningful. It's fine. Just do that inarticulately. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think the the song I was thinking of was Become the Water, but I would have to look up the the lyrics again. So this is really bad radio. But you guys can go ahead and do it, you know. find Catharsis on your your your local streaming or music purchasing application or go look at a look for the stuff in a record store and pick it up 'cause really, really cool music and to Danny's point, like music with something to say. Absolutely. And we touched on it a little bit, but why not gloss over it again? He got to sit in a room and work on music with David fucking Bowie. Yep. Yeah. which and another great point I think to to come back to there is when he was talking about I forget exactly how it started, but s whatever the connection was with how he and Bowie And Maria Schneider were all who I forget who knew who. but that like he said that Maria was like Bowie idolized her or whatever, like he he was obsessed with her or something. And so like even David Bowie, who I hold as one of the like most amazing songwriters ever, thinking that like that person is like so amazing and I can listen and learn from them. Like what that's just a nice nice little lesson and never stops Learning and so cool to think of like the thin white Duke hanging out in the shadows of like a smoky jazz joint in New York being like, I'm just here to enjoy the music. I love like there's so many great stories about Bowie would walk around New York with just like a baseball hat and a Russian newspaper and like be on the bus or subway or whatever, and so you look like David Bowie, and you go, I hear that sometimes. I've never heard that story. That's exactly what I would do if was really famous, is I would be like, I do look like them. Yeah. I get that all the time. Tony Hawk gets that a lot. People be like, Anybody who tell you look like Tony Hawk? I heard yeah, I look just like him 'cause I am No you're not. Okay. Yeah. All right. You're too old. Well I feel like that's how I would that would be my my experience with celebrity would be like, You look just like this guy, but like a fat version. You look like Kenny Darling, but if you'd just given up But like if he was like, you know, older and stopped exercising and like maybe ate shitty and quit smoking so he gained all the weight, you know? Yeah, that's that feels right. what would immortals be about ending us with self-deprecation? Well thank you to Ryan. Thank you guys, thank you, Kenny and Jason, for being my friends. You're welcome. Well hold on, hold on. Let's take a minute to sit on that for a second. Danny doing all right? I'm doing fun. I just you know look at your faces and you know. I got two fun. I'm excited to get to do this. This is fun. Like I don't know, like this is like I said, I was inspired by this conversation and I don't know. Like I I certainly wouldn't be able to do this on my own. So I appreciate it. Well we're glad to be your friend too. Thank you. We couldn't let Danny have a nice time, so we had to shit all over it. 'Cause that's how we show our love. That is love. That is love. Hey, no sincerity here, idiot. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, this has been another episode of Mere Mortals where we talk about music, success, friendship, and how we feel about our bodies. Sorry guys. We're Mere Mortals. Yes.