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We spend a huge part of our lives thinking about work, what it means and what it demands, what it says about us, and yet very few of us ever stop to ask whether the way we think about work is actually healthy.
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We are slowing that down and exploring how our thinking shapes not just our work but our whole experience of life.
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Welcome to Healthy Mind Healthy Life, where we explore practical ways to care for our mental and emotional well-being in everyday life.
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Today I'm joined by David Furt.
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Someone who has spent over three decades really helping leaders and organizations rethink how they communicate, lead, and relate to change.
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David's work with global organizations and his writing on communication and meaning have helped people see work not as a burden, that is just to survive another day, but as a space for growth and contribution.
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So I really want to invite you all to this episode where we'll be exploring how to think more healthily about work and how that mindset naturally extends into life as a whole.
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So David, I uh you know, I'm very honored to have you on the show today.
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And uh I believe it's going to be a very um broad discussion about life and work in general, but uh regardless of that, I'm excited to have this conversation.
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Thank you very much indeed, sir, and yes, I'm excited to have it too.
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Yeah.
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Thank you so much, David.
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So, you know, before we kind of dive into the kind of mentality or call it the mindset shift or call it the frameworks, um, I'm curious as to when you look at how most people relate to work today, what do you wish that uh, you know, it was not the case?
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Um what what what do you wish that it was different with people how they relate to work today?
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Yeah, lovely.
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I think I think if I could change things for people, uh it would be that and maybe this is something that, hey, maybe this is something we just pass on to the next generation because if we are like me, 33 decades into my career, maybe it's too late for me, or somebody who's 10 years in.
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But anyway, we can still think about what we might think about differently.
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I think the thing I'd most like to change is that one of the things that we are asked to do early on in our lives, in most cultures I'm aware of, is the idea that if we get a good job, that will bring us a good degree of, first of all, being an adult, because adults are supposed to have jobs and provide money and so on and so forth, and that is a good thing in and of itself.
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And the trouble is with that connection, is that the getting of the job is tied very tightly to making money.
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And my contention is that making money through a job is actually a very loose connection.
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Because if my boss turns around tomorrow and says we're laying a hundred people off, David, and you're one of them, then the job is gone and the money making is gone.
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So I wish that I would have liked my kids to have grown up in an education system that said, hey everybody, one of the things that's going to be true in your life is you'll want to earn money because money buys you nice things.
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Let's have a look at how money is created.
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And the story we're told is that money is created through getting a job.
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I think money is created by adding value.
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When we add value, money arises.
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Whether that value is, I am a consultant like me, I help my clients solve problems, they have a value to that and they pay me my fee.
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At the other end of the scale, uh, I was just talking to my uh car repair shop about my son's car.
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They fix the car.
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They fix the car from broken to fixed, that's value, and they will send me a bill and they'll pay the bill.
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So if we could explore as kids, what would me adding value in the world look like?
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And knowing that the more value I create, the more I'm guaranteed to be having some sort of measure coming in, then that's a different start to life than how do I get a job.
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Does that make sense?
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And that's yeah, that does.
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And that indeed is um, you know, I mean, the root of um I would say why people are not happy, you know, with with the kind of jobs, because we are always looking for more right.
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We're not intentionally thinking about the kind of value that we are adding.
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We're just thinking about on the surface level about the job in itself, right?
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And like you said, uh that's like uh uh a materialistic um byproduct of of the society itself.
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And so I'm I'm you know, I'm curious about um a belief that many people carry, often without realizing, is that uh work is something we have to endure, you know, so that we can finally live later.
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Um so what do you see there as the biggest misconception, you know, that people hold about work in general and its role in their lives?
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Yeah, I mean that is.
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I mean, I do a lot of work in as a consultant with communication and storytelling, and you're absolutely right, you know, the idea that work is to be endured, work is a have to as opposed to a want-to.
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Work is something that we do to pay the bills, and then if there's any other benefits, they will come after that is is a very common uh story in the world, but not all stories are true, you know, and if we if we begin to challenge that, then we get to a different place uh with the concept of work.
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I mean, it's interesting where that story came from, and certainly for many decades work was hard.
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I mean, you know, I'm I grew up in Yorkshire in England, where the Industrial Revolution took place, and people were working in factories and in workhouse, you know, and and wasn't much fun, probably.
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And so, but the thing is that's not the world we live in now, you know.
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Uh working on the in the on the farms and in the fields is hard work, it's hard physical labour.
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Um, but even then, there is more for, I guess, for most farmers, there is more to the reason they do the work than simply the physical labor that they do.
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It's what they produce, is how and how what they produces contributes to the wider society.
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Yeah.
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But you're absolutely right, it's a place of suffering for for so many people, and that's I think it's tied into it is tied into the early experiences they had where they're told, don't you worry, if you get a job, you'll be happy.
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And then they find funny enough that they're not.
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No.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, you know, contrary to that, I would say that I think many people associate happiness to money, right?
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Which is true.
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It can indeed uh buy you, you know, um uh those um shining stuff that you have always wanted to, right?
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Uh but if we stay that for a moment, uh David, how much of that do you think is true?
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I mean, um, is it is it so it does it get so bad that often we forget the value that you know we have as an individual, and you know, we we we start to think about um just our lives and not the bigger picture itself that how can I maybe build something, right?
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Or maybe I how I can add the value.
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Like you said, it's a very uh narrow-minded approach, I would say.
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That you know, I would go to a job, I would let's say whatever that job is, right?
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It could be a desk job, it could be uh some something physical, right?
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Um but but how how much of that do you think is um related to uh that mindset that money equals happiness?
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I think that again is one of the key stories that many societies are based on, that there is that link.
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And then people find out it's not as sure as they were.
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Um Yeah, because if you look at if you look at very successful people, right?
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Now, uh I I I can't say that um all of them are not happy, right?
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I I don't know about their personal lives, but it so appears that um even if you're successful on paper, there are people who still feel empty.
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So where does that come from?
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And if it's a good papa, you know, because if they behold that there's a there's a there's like loneliness at the top, right?
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So what do you think about that?
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Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I'm I'm my background is arts and literature and theatre and things like that.
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So I'm not a very data-driven uh person, but I do know that research findings after research findings after research findings about people's happiness is actually primarily related to their relationships and their health.
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And money is in there.
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Nobody's saying we don't need money or we shouldn't have money.
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No.
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But you know, I think about, and I can as you say, we could we can only imagine what it's like to be Elon Musk and how happy really is Elon Musk.
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Uh, we have no idea, we'll probably never know.
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Yeah, I've no idea.
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Would I be happy if I had th that many billions of dollars?
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I've got no idea because I'll never find out.
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But I can speak from my.
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I mean, a very interesting thing.
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I I'm not sure if you've heard about the recent uh you know accusation on Billy Elish.
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Uh if I don't know if you have heard that again.
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Oh no.
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Uh right.
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So there was this uh uh so I think there was some award uh that was uh being uh given to Billy Elish.
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Um that was I think New Street, uh New York Street wall, I I believe.
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I'm I'm not exactly sure, where you know Billy spoke up that you know, um if you are a billionaire, why are you a billionaire?
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You know, and that that stuck with me till date.
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I mean what what in the world really costs a billion dollars, David?
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Let me ask you.
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And and there's a huge difference, and there's a huge difference between a million and a billion, right?
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There's a huge difference because someone says because if someone says, you know, that I want to be a millionaire, that makes so much sense.
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But if someone really tells you today that they want to be a billionaire, right?
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That that okay, okay, it's it's good to have aspirations.
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But the real question is, should they even exist?
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You know, ethically speaking.
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Oh, I yeah, I don't know about that.
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All I can say is from my own experience.
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I can tell you about my own experience for what it's worth, and I can tell you about experience.
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I mean, I what is bringing the what is this bringing to mind is a good client of mine who, uh fabulous guy, great family man, great leader in business, was able to retire pretty early because he'd been savvy and he'd invested and it earned well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I remember before he even retired, he said to me, because I was coaching him, he said to me, Hey David, uh good news.
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I hit the number I thought it was going to take to make me really happy.
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I didn't I didn't even ask him what the number was.
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Yeah.
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And I said, Good for you, how you feel?
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He said, I'm well, it didn't give me what I was looking for.
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You know?
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And the good news is he still had time and energy to do something about that and find the thing that it wasn't apparently that amount.
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Yeah.
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Uh now, though, I I'm also very aware that you know the world is not what it was.
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My wife and I, when we met, we're both in the theatre, which basically meant that we were adding zero, you know, of a hundred pounds in Britain.
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You know, not much.
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And so we grew up together.
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I mean, we grew up together, I mean b early early years before we were married and then when we were married, where our dinner was either it was either going to be beans and potatoes or potatoes and beans, and occasionally a bit of cheese on top, yeah.
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But were we happy?
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I think so.
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I think we were as happy as ever we are.
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And now, you know, through the business, we've we've got a completely different revenue stream to what we did there.
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Are we as happy?
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Yes.
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Because we love each other.
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We have a fabulous relationship with each other, we do work that we want to do, we're not complaining about the things that don't happen to us, you know.
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And so it's not under your control, yeah.
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What's not under my control, exactly right.
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And we're not we're we're very realistic.
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We we choose things that we think will make us happy and not choose things that we know won't, like a another sports, let's get a sports car that will make us happy.
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Yeah, we did that when we're younger.
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Yeah.
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Totally.
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I mean, and and that's I I think uh I have the same features you, David, but you know, as far as uh the listeners are concerned, and uh as you guys are listening, you're probably thinking that uh, you know, okay, what if your story is a bit different than what we are talking about?
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But hey, uh let let me let me get this to a very common ground, David, so that uh I believe all of the listeners can relate to right.
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So for say for someone who's listening to this and feels like um we're kind of stuck in this cycle of work.
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Sorry, wake up, you know, get ready for work, go to work, come back, you know, take out for maybe a few um uh hardly a couple of hours for yourself or you know, the course that you would do, um, and then go back to sleep and then the cycle repeats.
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So somebody who's stuck in that cycle, right?
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Um, what would you like to tell them um in in the context of what is the healthier way to start relating to work?
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Yes.
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Um and you know, uh finding purpose in life.
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Yeah, so so so what would you what would you say?
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Yeah, there's a couple of things come to mind, saying one is that one of the things that was true about my uh childhood is I was only ever good at one academic subject, and that turned out to be English language and literature, which explained my early relationship with storytelling and communication and this, that, the other.
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And it's also left me as a bit of a geek, a sort of crazy expert on the etymology of words.
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And in English, the word work comes from an old English verb, which means to create, to create.
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Okay.
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Working doesn't mean get a job, go to work, do labor.
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It means mold something, make something, create something, yeah.
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And so one of the things I'd ask people to do who are who have the same rhythm as everybody else, by the way, even the billionaires wake up in the morning and go to bed at night, yeah.
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Um what could they put in place language change at the point?
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I have my breakfast, I go to work, I go to how can I add value today?
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What can I explore in adding slightly more value that will make me feel good?
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And maybe my boss will notice on the next time there's a possibility of a pay raise, maybe he'll think about me because I added that much value.
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What do I want to create together in my uh what do I want to create in my work today?
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Eve even if it's as simple as washing the dishes.
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My first ever way I earned money, I washed dishes in a restaurant.
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I turned it into an art form.
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I loved it.
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I was paid like three pounds an hour, but nevertheless, I loved it.
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I took dirty things from here, I washed them carefully, they were clean over here.
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I don't know how I got that in spraying sight that it could be meaningful work, but it was.
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Seriously, I'm not I'm not trying to make up some sort of crazy story here.
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It was.
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It was simple work, but it was beautiful stuff.
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So how what can I create together?
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And then one other thing I'd just add here as well.
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Years ago, I wrote a book called How to Make Work Fun for the Business World.
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And I wrote it because I'd come from theatre into the consulting world, and I was meeting a lot of people for whom work was not fun.
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Didn't.
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And so I got really curious about that, and I wrote the book, and I found out interviewing people whose work was fun, found out four things, and this is something for that all of us can really focus on in our day-to-day work.
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One, people said their work was fun if they had, if they liked the people around them.
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And some people say, Oh, I'm surrounded by idiots and fools, whatever.
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But where's the person you can build a slightly better relationship with today during the work than you could yesterday?
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Yeah, so people, connection to people.
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The second thing that they said that there was some sense of progress.
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It wasn't the goal, it was I'm doing it slightly different and better today than I was yesterday.
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What can I improve in the washing of the dishes today that I wasn't doing yesterday?
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The third one is slightly more out of control.
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These people were reporting freedom, they weren't micromanaged, you know, their boss wasn't hanging over them every day saying, Saiyan, you should do it this way and that way, and this way, that way.
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They were different, they had a measure of freedom and autonomy, and then the fourth one that they reported as making their work fun was what I call joy.
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They just showed up with a sense of, you know, even when it's tough, it's not really all that bad, you know.
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And we can have a joke and we can smile together, and we can make fun of things, or we could talk about what happened at the football or the cricket this year, you know.
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Um so there's that sense of joy in in the midst sometimes of very challenging circumstances.
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And belonging.
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And belonging belonging, progress, freedom, joy.
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Those are what make work fun for people.
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Yeah, and honestly, I love the kind of honesty that you're bringing to this conversation, David.
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So, I mean, you know, it's kind of nice to get to talk to you and uh I mean, talk about life in general.
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So, you know, for anyone who's listening to this, who kind of feels overwhelmed right now, I would say.
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I want to offer this reflection that if your work could not define your word for a moment, right?
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Um, what might become possible in how you treat yourself today?
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Let's let's go with that hypothesis.
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Yeah, the beautiful question.
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What could be possible in how you treat yourself today?
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You know, one of the things is one of the books I'm writing this year is called Ratty and Angelo, which is about the idea uh that there are two voices in our head that we listen to well, and we we tend to listen to the ratty voice a lot more.
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Ratty is one of the very it's it's the ratty negative, you know, undercutting us, not making us feel good.
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For some reason, we have this voice in our head.
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I'm just saying, hey, if we'd listen to Angelo, who's a lot more calm and wise every so often, it might be a better life.
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But I think I think there is truth to that, which is life is challenging enough without also having a voice in our head saying, Ah, but if you'd have been born to rich parents, or if you were smarter, or if you weren't just good at English, you were good at math, you'd have had a better career.
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You know, let's do what we can to just say thank you, Ratti.
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Thanks for your opinion.
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But today I'm not gonna listen to that just as much.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.000
I'm just gonna turn the volume down and let it go away a little bit.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.039
So that's the first thing.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:15.119
And it sounds hard, but it's a practice, like many of the things that we do in our lives.
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:29.839
It's sort of No, because because you know, uh I I was asked this question um that uh I remember when when I when I um joined my first job, right?
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:44.960
And there was this guy who came in and uh asked in one of the sessions that uh so there were 14-15 people sitting in that room and he asked to everyone, you know, what is that one moment that you wanted to change in your life, right?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.960
But he says, you know, I should have done this, I should have done that, and it it came to me alright.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:20:00.559
And uh I said, well, look, I'm thankful for what you know I I have uh done in my life so far, right?
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:20.160
Because I if I if I did not do that and did that, did that other thing uh that now I I feel like I should have done I might have succeeded in the short term, yes, but in the long term, there is a probability that I might be in a worse scenario than what I am today, right?
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.039
Oh yes.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:28.480
So so it's that it's that being grateful of of where you are right now, right?
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:39.440
And and I mean, like you said, you know, lowering that volume so that you understand uh the the reality as a whole from a broader perspective.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.319
Yes, exactly, absolutely right.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:43.599
It's uh we've no idea.
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:51.279
I mean I'm fascinated by the concept of a thousand different universes running in parallel and you know but also Which is very, very possible.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.359
Very, very possible, absolutely.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:59.920
And until I get to see that as a real reality of some sort, I I think this is the only life we have.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.799
And and you know, I what you've brought up for me, and this is talk about being honest, I'll be very honest here.
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.000
I proposed marriage to a girl when I was 18 years old.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.559
I can remember specifically where we were.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:19.279
It was before I went off to Oxford University, and I often think, thankfully, she said, Don't be stupid, David, go off to university and live your life, you know.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.039
If she'd have said yes, what different life would that have been?
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.680
And so moment by moment we just don't know.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:31.680
But apparently, the life I'm living is no, that was a no, and then we did this, and then we did that, then we did that.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:38.319
So let's make sense of the life we're living as opposed to the possible ones we could be doing in a thousand other universes, yeah.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:40.240
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:55.359
I mean, yeah, you know, that that's a different, um, I believe, a conversation on its own at uh do that for our listeners some sometime where we talk about uh uh a in depth about free will and you know what what do we think about free will?
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.359
Like is it there, is it not?
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.400
But you know, coming coming back to the kind of Conversation that was meant for today, David.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.720
I think we are about to hit the minute mark.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:22.480
So I I just want to, you know, uh share my key takeaway for my listeners, which is um this folks, that I think um a healthy life doesn't begin with changing our job or you know, doing great in your job or fixing yourself.
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:32.480
I think it begins by changing how we think, how we speak, and relate to the work and moments that that are already in front of us, all right?
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:40.160
So I just want you to take that uh as a gentle reminder uh for the for the next rest of your week.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.119
And uh before we wrap this off, David would love to ask our listeners who want to explore your work further.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.000
Um, where's the best place that they could find you at?
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:49.119
Sure.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.440
Well, my website is a good place to start.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:56.960
That leads to all of the courses and uh books that I've written and so on, and that's davidfirth.com.
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:01.680
So David Firth F I Fox I-R-T-H.com.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:11.119
Uh I always advise people not to put David Firth into Google and chase that because you would get to David Firth, the animator, uh, and that would get very confusing very fast.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.400
But davidfirth.com will get to you to my website address.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:15.519
No worries, David.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.200
Uh thanks for sharing, and I'll include that in the um show notes as well.
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:32.960
So um they reach out to the exact uh you, and that is with that, we thank everybody for tuning in today and uh thanks for spending this time with us on Healthy Man, Healthy Life.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:42.720
If today's conversation resonated, I want you to take a moment to reflect on what I said before, um, and also on the stories that you carry about work and life.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:50.240
Because sometimes a single shift in perspective can change the entire experience and the following consequences.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:57.519
So, until next time, uh please to take care of your mind, uh, your life, and um I'll see you on the next one.
00:00:06.959 --> 00:00:20.399
We spend a huge part of our lives thinking about work, what it means and what it demands, what it says about us, and yet very few of us ever stop to ask whether the way we think about work is actually healthy.
00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:28.480
We are slowing that down and exploring how our thinking shapes not just our work but our whole experience of life.
00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:36.159
Welcome to Healthy Mind Healthy Life, where we explore practical ways to care for our mental and emotional well-being in everyday life.
00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:38.399
Today I'm joined by David Furt.
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:48.240
Someone who has spent over three decades really helping leaders and organizations rethink how they communicate, lead, and relate to change.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:01:01.840
David's work with global organizations and his writing on communication and meaning have helped people see work not as a burden, that is just to survive another day, but as a space for growth and contribution.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:14.799
So I really want to invite you all to this episode where we'll be exploring how to think more healthily about work and how that mindset naturally extends into life as a whole.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:19.519
So David, I uh you know, I'm very honored to have you on the show today.
00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:32.799
And uh I believe it's going to be a very um broad discussion about life and work in general, but uh regardless of that, I'm excited to have this conversation.
00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:36.640
Thank you very much indeed, sir, and yes, I'm excited to have it too.
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:37.200
Yeah.
00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:38.799
Thank you so much, David.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:58.319
So, you know, before we kind of dive into the kind of mentality or call it the mindset shift or call it the frameworks, um, I'm curious as to when you look at how most people relate to work today, what do you wish that uh, you know, it was not the case?
00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:04.079
Um what what what do you wish that it was different with people how they relate to work today?
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:05.760
Yeah, lovely.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:22.639
I think I think if I could change things for people, uh it would be that and maybe this is something that, hey, maybe this is something we just pass on to the next generation because if we are like me, 33 decades into my career, maybe it's too late for me, or somebody who's 10 years in.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.080
But anyway, we can still think about what we might think about differently.
00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:50.479
I think the thing I'd most like to change is that one of the things that we are asked to do early on in our lives, in most cultures I'm aware of, is the idea that if we get a good job, that will bring us a good degree of, first of all, being an adult, because adults are supposed to have jobs and provide money and so on and so forth, and that is a good thing in and of itself.
00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:58.639
And the trouble is with that connection, is that the getting of the job is tied very tightly to making money.
00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:07.039
And my contention is that making money through a job is actually a very loose connection.
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:14.800
Because if my boss turns around tomorrow and says we're laying a hundred people off, David, and you're one of them, then the job is gone and the money making is gone.
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:26.639
So I wish that I would have liked my kids to have grown up in an education system that said, hey everybody, one of the things that's going to be true in your life is you'll want to earn money because money buys you nice things.
00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.360
Let's have a look at how money is created.
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.680
And the story we're told is that money is created through getting a job.
00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.960
I think money is created by adding value.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:41.120
When we add value, money arises.
00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:50.319
Whether that value is, I am a consultant like me, I help my clients solve problems, they have a value to that and they pay me my fee.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:55.919
At the other end of the scale, uh, I was just talking to my uh car repair shop about my son's car.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:56.800
They fix the car.
00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:03.039
They fix the car from broken to fixed, that's value, and they will send me a bill and they'll pay the bill.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:08.319
So if we could explore as kids, what would me adding value in the world look like?
00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:18.800
And knowing that the more value I create, the more I'm guaranteed to be having some sort of measure coming in, then that's a different start to life than how do I get a job.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:20.240
Does that make sense?
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.000
And that's yeah, that does.
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:34.639
And that indeed is um, you know, I mean, the root of um I would say why people are not happy, you know, with with the kind of jobs, because we are always looking for more right.
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:40.879
We're not intentionally thinking about the kind of value that we are adding.
00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.399
We're just thinking about on the surface level about the job in itself, right?
00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:52.240
And like you said, uh that's like uh uh a materialistic um byproduct of of the society itself.
00:04:52.319 --> 00:05:04.959
And so I'm I'm you know, I'm curious about um a belief that many people carry, often without realizing, is that uh work is something we have to endure, you know, so that we can finally live later.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:14.000
Um so what do you see there as the biggest misconception, you know, that people hold about work in general and its role in their lives?
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:15.680
Yeah, I mean that is.
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:27.199
I mean, I do a lot of work in as a consultant with communication and storytelling, and you're absolutely right, you know, the idea that work is to be endured, work is a have to as opposed to a want-to.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:45.759
Work is something that we do to pay the bills, and then if there's any other benefits, they will come after that is is a very common uh story in the world, but not all stories are true, you know, and if we if we begin to challenge that, then we get to a different place uh with the concept of work.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:53.920
I mean, it's interesting where that story came from, and certainly for many decades work was hard.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:06:05.600
I mean, you know, I'm I grew up in Yorkshire in England, where the Industrial Revolution took place, and people were working in factories and in workhouse, you know, and and wasn't much fun, probably.
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.759
And so, but the thing is that's not the world we live in now, you know.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:17.120
Uh working on the in the on the farms and in the fields is hard work, it's hard physical labour.
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:27.040
Um, but even then, there is more for, I guess, for most farmers, there is more to the reason they do the work than simply the physical labor that they do.
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:33.199
It's what they produce, is how and how what they produces contributes to the wider society.
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:33.839
Yeah.
00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:45.519
But you're absolutely right, it's a place of suffering for for so many people, and that's I think it's tied into it is tied into the early experiences they had where they're told, don't you worry, if you get a job, you'll be happy.
00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.920
And then they find funny enough that they're not.
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:48.959
No.
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:49.519
Yeah.
00:06:49.839 --> 00:07:01.040
So I mean, you know, contrary to that, I would say that I think many people associate happiness to money, right?
00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:01.759
Which is true.
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:09.519
It can indeed uh buy you, you know, um uh those um shining stuff that you have always wanted to, right?
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:14.319
Uh but if we stay that for a moment, uh David, how much of that do you think is true?
00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:33.120
I mean, um, is it is it so it does it get so bad that often we forget the value that you know we have as an individual, and you know, we we we start to think about um just our lives and not the bigger picture itself that how can I maybe build something, right?
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:34.879
Or maybe I how I can add the value.
00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.639
Like you said, it's a very uh narrow-minded approach, I would say.
00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.160
That you know, I would go to a job, I would let's say whatever that job is, right?
00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.000
It could be a desk job, it could be uh some something physical, right?
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:55.600
Um but but how how much of that do you think is um related to uh that mindset that money equals happiness?
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:03.040
I think that again is one of the key stories that many societies are based on, that there is that link.
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.319
And then people find out it's not as sure as they were.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.360
Um Yeah, because if you look at if you look at very successful people, right?
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.839
Now, uh I I I can't say that um all of them are not happy, right?
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:24.160
I I don't know about their personal lives, but it so appears that um even if you're successful on paper, there are people who still feel empty.
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.399
So where does that come from?
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:33.519
And if it's a good papa, you know, because if they behold that there's a there's a there's like loneliness at the top, right?
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.279
So what do you think about that?
00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:41.200
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I'm I'm my background is arts and literature and theatre and things like that.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:55.919
So I'm not a very data-driven uh person, but I do know that research findings after research findings after research findings about people's happiness is actually primarily related to their relationships and their health.
00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:57.759
And money is in there.
00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.399
Nobody's saying we don't need money or we shouldn't have money.
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:00.960
No.
00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:08.639
But you know, I think about, and I can as you say, we could we can only imagine what it's like to be Elon Musk and how happy really is Elon Musk.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.240
Uh, we have no idea, we'll probably never know.
00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:11.200
Yeah, I've no idea.
00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.919
Would I be happy if I had th that many billions of dollars?
00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.000
I've got no idea because I'll never find out.
00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:17.200
But I can speak from my.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.600
I mean, a very interesting thing.
00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:34.720
I I'm not sure if you've heard about the recent uh you know accusation on Billy Elish.
00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.399
Uh if I don't know if you have heard that again.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:37.120
Oh no.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:38.399
Uh right.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:47.919
So there was this uh uh so I think there was some award uh that was uh being uh given to Billy Elish.
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.879
Um that was I think New Street, uh New York Street wall, I I believe.
00:09:52.960 --> 00:10:01.039
I'm I'm not exactly sure, where you know Billy spoke up that you know, um if you are a billionaire, why are you a billionaire?
00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:03.200
You know, and that that stuck with me till date.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.519
I mean what what in the world really costs a billion dollars, David?
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:10.720
Let me ask you.
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.240
And and there's a huge difference, and there's a huge difference between a million and a billion, right?
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:24.080
There's a huge difference because someone says because if someone says, you know, that I want to be a millionaire, that makes so much sense.
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.720
But if someone really tells you today that they want to be a billionaire, right?
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:32.320
That that okay, okay, it's it's good to have aspirations.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:34.960
But the real question is, should they even exist?
00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.120
You know, ethically speaking.
00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.080
Oh, I yeah, I don't know about that.
00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:41.919
All I can say is from my own experience.
00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.519
I can tell you about my own experience for what it's worth, and I can tell you about experience.
00:10:45.600 --> 00:11:00.480
I mean, I what is bringing the what is this bringing to mind is a good client of mine who, uh fabulous guy, great family man, great leader in business, was able to retire pretty early because he'd been savvy and he'd invested and it earned well.
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:01.039
Yeah.
00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:01.440
Yeah.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:08.399
I remember before he even retired, he said to me, because I was coaching him, he said to me, Hey David, uh good news.
00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.000
I hit the number I thought it was going to take to make me really happy.
00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:14.320
I didn't I didn't even ask him what the number was.
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:14.720
Yeah.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:16.799
And I said, Good for you, how you feel?
00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.159
He said, I'm well, it didn't give me what I was looking for.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:20.960
You know?
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:28.960
And the good news is he still had time and energy to do something about that and find the thing that it wasn't apparently that amount.
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:29.519
Yeah.
00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:35.200
Uh now, though, I I'm also very aware that you know the world is not what it was.
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:44.080
My wife and I, when we met, we're both in the theatre, which basically meant that we were adding zero, you know, of a hundred pounds in Britain.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.440
You know, not much.
00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.120
And so we grew up together.
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:58.960
I mean, we grew up together, I mean b early early years before we were married and then when we were married, where our dinner was either it was either going to be beans and potatoes or potatoes and beans, and occasionally a bit of cheese on top, yeah.
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:00.159
But were we happy?
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:00.879
I think so.
00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.039
I think we were as happy as ever we are.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.879
And now, you know, through the business, we've we've got a completely different revenue stream to what we did there.
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:09.919
Are we as happy?
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:10.480
Yes.
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:12.000
Because we love each other.
00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:20.320
We have a fabulous relationship with each other, we do work that we want to do, we're not complaining about the things that don't happen to us, you know.
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:22.639
And so it's not under your control, yeah.
00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:25.039
What's not under my control, exactly right.
00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.840
And we're not we're we're very realistic.
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:35.360
We we choose things that we think will make us happy and not choose things that we know won't, like a another sports, let's get a sports car that will make us happy.
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.200
Yeah, we did that when we're younger.
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:37.919
Yeah.
00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:38.799
Totally.
00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:53.600
I mean, and and that's I I think uh I have the same features you, David, but you know, as far as uh the listeners are concerned, and uh as you guys are listening, you're probably thinking that uh, you know, okay, what if your story is a bit different than what we are talking about?
00:12:53.759 --> 00:13:00.000
But hey, uh let let me let me get this to a very common ground, David, so that uh I believe all of the listeners can relate to right.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:07.679
So for say for someone who's listening to this and feels like um we're kind of stuck in this cycle of work.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:24.720
Sorry, wake up, you know, get ready for work, go to work, come back, you know, take out for maybe a few um uh hardly a couple of hours for yourself or you know, the course that you would do, um, and then go back to sleep and then the cycle repeats.
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.440
So somebody who's stuck in that cycle, right?
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:35.679
Um, what would you like to tell them um in in the context of what is the healthier way to start relating to work?
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:36.320
Yes.
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:41.519
Um and you know, uh finding purpose in life.
00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.399
Yeah, so so so what would you what would you say?
00:13:44.639 --> 00:14:02.960
Yeah, there's a couple of things come to mind, saying one is that one of the things that was true about my uh childhood is I was only ever good at one academic subject, and that turned out to be English language and literature, which explained my early relationship with storytelling and communication and this, that, the other.
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:08.639
And it's also left me as a bit of a geek, a sort of crazy expert on the etymology of words.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:15.919
And in English, the word work comes from an old English verb, which means to create, to create.
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:16.399
Okay.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:21.279
Working doesn't mean get a job, go to work, do labor.
00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:26.320
It means mold something, make something, create something, yeah.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:35.360
And so one of the things I'd ask people to do who are who have the same rhythm as everybody else, by the way, even the billionaires wake up in the morning and go to bed at night, yeah.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:40.320
Um what could they put in place language change at the point?
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:46.879
I have my breakfast, I go to work, I go to how can I add value today?
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:51.759
What can I explore in adding slightly more value that will make me feel good?
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:58.159
And maybe my boss will notice on the next time there's a possibility of a pay raise, maybe he'll think about me because I added that much value.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:04.559
What do I want to create together in my uh what do I want to create in my work today?
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:10.080
Eve even if it's as simple as washing the dishes.
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.759
My first ever way I earned money, I washed dishes in a restaurant.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:15.519
I turned it into an art form.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:16.879
I loved it.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.240
I was paid like three pounds an hour, but nevertheless, I loved it.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:25.039
I took dirty things from here, I washed them carefully, they were clean over here.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.600
I don't know how I got that in spraying sight that it could be meaningful work, but it was.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.279
Seriously, I'm not I'm not trying to make up some sort of crazy story here.
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:34.080
It was.
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.960
It was simple work, but it was beautiful stuff.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.480
So how what can I create together?
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:40.799
And then one other thing I'd just add here as well.
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.279
Years ago, I wrote a book called How to Make Work Fun for the Business World.
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:53.440
And I wrote it because I'd come from theatre into the consulting world, and I was meeting a lot of people for whom work was not fun.
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:54.080
Didn't.
00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:06.559
And so I got really curious about that, and I wrote the book, and I found out interviewing people whose work was fun, found out four things, and this is something for that all of us can really focus on in our day-to-day work.
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.759
One, people said their work was fun if they had, if they liked the people around them.
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:16.639
And some people say, Oh, I'm surrounded by idiots and fools, whatever.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.840
But where's the person you can build a slightly better relationship with today during the work than you could yesterday?
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.000
Yeah, so people, connection to people.
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.960
The second thing that they said that there was some sense of progress.
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:35.519
It wasn't the goal, it was I'm doing it slightly different and better today than I was yesterday.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.840
What can I improve in the washing of the dishes today that I wasn't doing yesterday?
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:42.480
The third one is slightly more out of control.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:52.639
These people were reporting freedom, they weren't micromanaged, you know, their boss wasn't hanging over them every day saying, Saiyan, you should do it this way and that way, and this way, that way.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:17:02.960
They were different, they had a measure of freedom and autonomy, and then the fourth one that they reported as making their work fun was what I call joy.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:10.400
They just showed up with a sense of, you know, even when it's tough, it's not really all that bad, you know.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:19.920
And we can have a joke and we can smile together, and we can make fun of things, or we could talk about what happened at the football or the cricket this year, you know.
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.880
Um so there's that sense of joy in in the midst sometimes of very challenging circumstances.
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:25.599
And belonging.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.799
And belonging belonging, progress, freedom, joy.
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.599
Those are what make work fun for people.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:40.480
Yeah, and honestly, I love the kind of honesty that you're bringing to this conversation, David.
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:47.200
So, I mean, you know, it's kind of nice to get to talk to you and uh I mean, talk about life in general.
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:53.920
So, you know, for anyone who's listening to this, who kind of feels overwhelmed right now, I would say.
00:17:54.319 --> 00:18:00.160
I want to offer this reflection that if your work could not define your word for a moment, right?
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.759
Um, what might become possible in how you treat yourself today?
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.960
Let's let's go with that hypothesis.
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:10.720
Yeah, the beautiful question.
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.359
What could be possible in how you treat yourself today?
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:28.880
You know, one of the things is one of the books I'm writing this year is called Ratty and Angelo, which is about the idea uh that there are two voices in our head that we listen to well, and we we tend to listen to the ratty voice a lot more.
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:35.200
Ratty is one of the very it's it's the ratty negative, you know, undercutting us, not making us feel good.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.039
For some reason, we have this voice in our head.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:42.240
I'm just saying, hey, if we'd listen to Angelo, who's a lot more calm and wise every so often, it might be a better life.
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:58.240
But I think I think there is truth to that, which is life is challenging enough without also having a voice in our head saying, Ah, but if you'd have been born to rich parents, or if you were smarter, or if you weren't just good at English, you were good at math, you'd have had a better career.
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.079
You know, let's do what we can to just say thank you, Ratti.
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.079
Thanks for your opinion.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.400
But today I'm not gonna listen to that just as much.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.000
I'm just gonna turn the volume down and let it go away a little bit.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.039
So that's the first thing.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:15.119
And it sounds hard, but it's a practice, like many of the things that we do in our lives.
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:29.839
It's sort of No, because because you know, uh I I was asked this question um that uh I remember when when I when I um joined my first job, right?
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:44.960
And there was this guy who came in and uh asked in one of the sessions that uh so there were 14-15 people sitting in that room and he asked to everyone, you know, what is that one moment that you wanted to change in your life, right?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.960
But he says, you know, I should have done this, I should have done that, and it it came to me alright.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:20:00.559
And uh I said, well, look, I'm thankful for what you know I I have uh done in my life so far, right?
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:20.160
Because I if I if I did not do that and did that, did that other thing uh that now I I feel like I should have done I might have succeeded in the short term, yes, but in the long term, there is a probability that I might be in a worse scenario than what I am today, right?
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.039
Oh yes.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:28.480
So so it's that it's that being grateful of of where you are right now, right?
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:39.440
And and I mean, like you said, you know, lowering that volume so that you understand uh the the reality as a whole from a broader perspective.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.319
Yes, exactly, absolutely right.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:43.599
It's uh we've no idea.
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:51.279
I mean I'm fascinated by the concept of a thousand different universes running in parallel and you know but also Which is very, very possible.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.359
Very, very possible, absolutely.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:59.920
And until I get to see that as a real reality of some sort, I I think this is the only life we have.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.799
And and you know, I what you've brought up for me, and this is talk about being honest, I'll be very honest here.
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.000
I proposed marriage to a girl when I was 18 years old.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.559
I can remember specifically where we were.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:19.279
It was before I went off to Oxford University, and I often think, thankfully, she said, Don't be stupid, David, go off to university and live your life, you know.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.039
If she'd have said yes, what different life would that have been?
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.680
And so moment by moment we just don't know.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:31.680
But apparently, the life I'm living is no, that was a no, and then we did this, and then we did that, then we did that.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:38.319
So let's make sense of the life we're living as opposed to the possible ones we could be doing in a thousand other universes, yeah.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:40.240
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:55.359
I mean, yeah, you know, that that's a different, um, I believe, a conversation on its own at uh do that for our listeners some sometime where we talk about uh uh a in depth about free will and you know what what do we think about free will?
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.359
Like is it there, is it not?
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.400
But you know, coming coming back to the kind of Conversation that was meant for today, David.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.720
I think we are about to hit the minute mark.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:22.480
So I I just want to, you know, uh share my key takeaway for my listeners, which is um this folks, that I think um a healthy life doesn't begin with changing our job or you know, doing great in your job or fixing yourself.
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:32.480
I think it begins by changing how we think, how we speak, and relate to the work and moments that that are already in front of us, all right?
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:40.160
So I just want you to take that uh as a gentle reminder uh for the for the next rest of your week.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.119
And uh before we wrap this off, David would love to ask our listeners who want to explore your work further.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.000
Um, where's the best place that they could find you at?
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:49.119
Sure.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.440
Well, my website is a good place to start.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:56.960
That leads to all of the courses and uh books that I've written and so on, and that's davidfirth.com.
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:01.680
So David Firth F I Fox I-R-T-H.com.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:11.119
Uh I always advise people not to put David Firth into Google and chase that because you would get to David Firth, the animator, uh, and that would get very confusing very fast.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.400
But davidfirth.com will get to you to my website address.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:15.519
No worries, David.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.200
Uh thanks for sharing, and I'll include that in the um show notes as well.
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:32.960
So um they reach out to the exact uh you, and that is with that, we thank everybody for tuning in today and uh thanks for spending this time with us on Healthy Man, Healthy Life.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:42.720
If today's conversation resonated, I want you to take a moment to reflect on what I said before, um, and also on the stories that you carry about work and life.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:50.240
Because sometimes a single shift in perspective can change the entire experience and the following consequences.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:57.519
So, until next time, uh please to take care of your mind, uh, your life, and um I'll see you on the next one.
