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Welcome back to Headcase.
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I'm Stephanie Hoffman.
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This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human.
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Let's dive in.
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Hi everyone.
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Welcome back to Headcase.
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I'm here with David Tuteau.
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He is a men's liberation coach, speaker, and host of the podcast Liberated, based in Melbourne, Australia.
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He works with men and high-achieving professionals and entrepreneurs to dissolve the unconscious patterns of driving their anxiety, burnout, and self-doubt at the root, blending in system work, somatic healing, shadow integration, and subconscious reprogramming.
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David is a LinkedIn top voice in mental health, a partner, a mentor, and executive judge for the Seven News Young Achiever Awards, and an ambassador for the Australian and New Zealand Mental Health Association.
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His work is shaped by his own lived experience navigating family trauma, identity collapse, and the rebuilding of life rooted in purpose rather than pressure.
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Welcome, David.
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Thank you so much, Stephanie.
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Lovely to be here and to support your awesome mission.
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Yeah, I loved your content on Instagram.
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I thought it was such an unique angle and really important work that you're doing.
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So I absolutely needed to have you on this podcast.
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So I'm just gonna dive in and ask you questions right away.
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But um so you've spoken about growing up as the good one and the responsible one in an immigrant family.
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How did that early identity shape your view of what it meant to be a man?
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And when did that mask finally start to crack?
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That's an awesome question.
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So, for context, my family emigrated to Australia from Romania and carried their own unique traumas and challenges with poverty and discrimination and um, yeah, just a lot of adversity uh that they faced on the way over here.
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And when I grew up in in you know, in that house around my family, it kind of felt like the only way for there to be a sense of safety or to bring us all together was when I was achieving.
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So I quickly learned that love, approval, validation is conditional based on my performance.
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So when I did really well, got a good grade, or crushed it in I don't know, rowing or soccer.
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Uh then yeah, I um, you know, gave us a reason to celebrate and and to come together.
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And and so then I made the achiever my identity, and that's just the the mask that I put on, so to speak.
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And yeah, the mask didn't necessarily crack, it did collapse, and it took a lot of pressure to get there.
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Uh I and it followed me all throughout school, obviously, and then into university and uh achieving throughout biomedicine, not because I was really I mean, I was interested in healthcare, but I learned shortly thereafter that I was doing it to make my parents proud of me, right?
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And I think most of us, if not all, can relate to that at some point in our journey.
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Um and then and then yeah, I I struggled to find my feet in a career, in a workplace where I felt like I belonged and which really lit me up, coupled with my own unique challenges, um, trying to cope with the pressure of feeling like I was behind in life and uh struggling to process my parents' divorce and my dad's you know mental health challenges as well.
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Uh I uh yeah, I was just crumbling under a lot of pressure, and I actually went into um the mental health space.
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I felt like that was the only real uh next step that could allow me to process what I was going through and kind of transmute some of the dense emotions that I was experiencing into something valuable to serve others.
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And even though that was really beautiful and getting to build a company and and surround myself with an amazing team, build an app, run workshops and and you know, serve the community.
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Uh when when it collapsed due to resourcing constraints, I realized that I was still trying to escape this uh fear of not being good enough by um you know chasing what seemed like a really attractive thing, you know, with entrepreneurship and doing your own thing and building your own brand.
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Like it's it seemed really exciting and and sexy and still meaningful, right?
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That was still really close to my heart.
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Yeah.
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However, there was still an element of that mask driving that behavior so that I could escape the feeling of insecurity or inadequacy or even degeneracy.
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Because I felt like I was kind of off the rails, uh, you know, at the same time with my own um addiction to substances and what have you.
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So um, yeah, what I will say, like anyone who's an immigrant family, like they carry immense sacrifice.
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So this isn't about blame or shame, it's just acknowledging that there's so much um yeah, trauma that gets inherited and passed down generation to generation.
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And so honoring that and acknowledging, you know, the sacrifices that parents and grandparents have made while choosing yourself and your healing and choosing to be the cycle breaker um and you know, the generational curse breaker, if we want to use that word, um, is is one of the central tensions and and I guess cornerstones of of my work, um, so that those unproductive or toxic cycles don't get passed down to future generations as well.
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That's amazing.
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So how did you land in this position?
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Like what was kind of the light bulb moment that led you to say, this is my calling?
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Uh, with with coaching that I'm doing now?
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, I think a number of things.
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So I I realized, and you know, you've you've got your own podcast, Stephanie.
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It'd be great to hear from you as well around what the journey has been like going out on your own.
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And I feel like it's kind of like personal development on crack, like all of your wounds, all of your ideas, all of your limiting beliefs just get reflected back to you when you dive into something like entrepreneurship.
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Um, and so when I was building my first business in the mental health space, I was really coming up against a lot of um, yeah, like money wounds and you know, people-pleasing uh tendencies and you know, validation seeking and all of this stuff emerged.
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Um and I realized that, you know, I mean, I felt blessed.
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I had a lot of great support around me.
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Um, but a lot of entrepreneurs and founders and professionals that I saw doing particularly well had invested in their own sort of inner work.
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And those that weren't or that were really struggling, myself included, hustling, grinding, operating from a very fear-driven mentality, um consistently led to cycles of burnout, stress, anxiety, you know, like shallow um relationships, and yeah, just a lot of unnecessary suffering.
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And so uh my own journey with healing started with psychology and psychotherapy.
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So I noticed this in my work, and then in my own healing journey, I got a lot of great awareness and intellectual understanding around my patterns, why I was numbing out, why I was distracting myself, um, and ending up in the same cycles of anxiety or depression.
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But that didn't actually shift things.
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I still continued to experience, you know, those those patterns repeating themselves.
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Right.
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And so that drove me deeper into um somatic work and connecting to the body and learning all about the body keeps the score and how you can't outthink your way out of trauma that's held in the nervous system, excuse me, and um and then shadow work as well.
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So learning about all of the different parts of ourselves that we reject or deny or keep hidden from the world.
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Um and that, you know, all all of the that phase of my healing journey was really, really profound and really helped me unburden myself from from you know these emotions that I was holding on to.
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And I noticed that there was a lot of conversation around this, but not many men um like admitting yeah that that they needed the help.
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And you know, that's been a pretty big theme throughout my family and throughout um my my work as well, like and just society.
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I mean, we lose a guide to to suicide every minute, um, which is pretty confronting to say the least.
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At the same time, it's really inspiring uh for me because I know that there's work to be done, and I want to help um, you know, men be able to come back to what really is important, which is to feel.
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I mean, for everyone, certainly, but at least in the lane that I'm in at the moment.
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Um, at the end of the day, we have been so conditioned and so programmed to do everything but feel our emotions fully.
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You know, there's ice bars and there's saunas and there's journaling and there's meditation and mindfulness.
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And don't get me wrong, I mean, they're all amazing tools.
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Therapy, of course, right?
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They all play an important part, and there is like a journey you're gone.
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At the same time, though, you if you just do that, you can become very, very effective at avoiding your emotions.
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And that's, I believe, where the goal is, because that's how you can actually heal a pattern at the root cause.
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That's what I've seen in my journey.
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That's what I've seen in working with clients.
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And I wanted to kind of offer that to the world and to, I guess, the the guy that I I was uh, you know, a few years ago, um struggling on his mental health and healing journey and seeking and struggling to find answers.
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Um, I kind of wanted to be that that hero for me and and and here we are.
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That's amazing.
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Yeah, I feel like it you you can find little pieces that help you through therapy or uh physical exercise and maybe meditation, but having it kind of a tailored program where you hit all of it together is so unique.
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So that's amazing.
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And especially, I mean, I do agree that men in general just have a harder time expressing their emotions or understanding their emotions and constantly bury them in order to not be perceived a certain way and you know, be all stoic and you know, a manly man and very macho and everything.
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Yeah, it's so last century.
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I know, so over.
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Um then so you've you you mentioned that your father had some mental health issues that um affected you growing up, so he attempted suicide, if I'm not mistaken.
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And um how did that obviously majorly impact your life, but how did that change your view of what it means to be like a strong man?
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And how did that moment lead you to um link mate?
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Yeah, yeah, beautiful, thank you, um, Stephanie.
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So I I think like most of us grew up watching my my parents and my dad as superheroes, you know, like just providing, putting food on the table, taking me to to sport and to to school and all of these things.
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Um and like I mentioned before, that there was like a lot of unprocessed trauma, you know, in in that household of no fault of anyone.
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It's just the reality of you know the the generational um programming.
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Uh and and then you know, when my parents divorced, and I'm an only child, so I didn't really feel like I could turn to anyone.
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I also moved to college, so I was living on campus, away from family, feeling really alone, and um as was my dad, you know, he was feeling really alone, very lonely, and um, you know, that that uh separation, that divorce really took a massive toll on him, um, as it did for me.
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And I I mean I grew up on the narrative with dad, as I'm sure for with a lot of dads, there's there's this narrative like put up, shut up, and get on with it.
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Um and you know, I made that part of my achiever identity, so I was very good, you know, like he said before, Stephanie, being the stoic warrior that just sucks it all up and then keeps on pushing.
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And um and so when I was really struggling with like substance abuse and and struggling to find a sense of like peace in my mind and body, I I didn't really know who to turn to.
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I I took a punt or I I I rolled the dice to see if how that conversation might go with my dad, knowing that perhaps I just get the same answer that I always got around, you know, just put up, shut up, and get on with it.
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Um, but something different happened and something special happened.
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Um, he actually acknowledged uh you know me and validated what I was going through.
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And then almost as though he felt he now had permission to open up as well, he shared all of the challenges and the trauma he faced, migrating um from a foreign country and the toll that the divorce took on him, and then his attempt to end his life.
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And of course, you know, it was really confronting hearing that.
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At the same time, though, it was quite um liberating, I think, for both of us.
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Uh, you know, witnessing my father at his most vulnerable, just completely dismantled this idea or this concept of strength and masculinity that I'd been sold by him.
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Um, and you know, it was really beautiful.
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And we got a chance to just hold space for one another and not try to fix or diagnose what we were going through, um, but just to hear each other out.
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And I realized, you know, men are dying and people are dying because they have no language for what's happening inside them and no safe place to take it, where they feel seen and understood and accepted and held non-judgmentally, compassionately.
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And so that inspired the idea for Linkmate.
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Um, like, what if there was somewhere to go before a crisis point before you know someone um even starts considering an option like suicide?
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And that sort of interaction between dad and I became a like a not not necessarily a test bed, but yeah, it spawned the idea for a space, a virtual space, a digital space where people who shared similar things or similar interests or hobbies or lived experiences could come together.
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So if if you had been struggling with I don't know, like work-related stress, yeah, ADHD diagnosis, and you also are into yoga and cooking, then you could connect with someone else who shared those attributes, those characteristics, those challenges.
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They were trained in peer support, so to actually hold space for you with um empathy and and active listening.
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And yeah, just just uh just to chat in the same way that you would with a mate or with a friend, um, as we would say in Australia.
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So so yeah, that was, I think, a big moment for me, not just because you know, I got to build something, but uh turning uh like a moment of personal pain into something purposeful.
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Um and um yeah, so yeah, so to this day, very grateful for dad sharing that vulnerably because that that's you know massively catalyzed my own journey and and how I look at mental health and and how I serve uh in this space.
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Yeah, I think that's so important.
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I think statistically, or something, there's the highest amount of suicide rates come from men, particularly high-achieving men in general, and how much pressure they put on themselves, how much pressure they feel there's so much pressure to perform, to provide, and just be protectors and all of that.
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And then there's just no outlet for all of that energy to go.
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And then if something goes wrong, they just don't know where to turn, and or you know, they could be raised like with someone saying therapy is for weak people, or they're not raised with therapy and their parents never have done it, so they don't know.
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I mean, it can be generational and cultural and things like that.
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So that's really that's really amazing that you're able to bring people together in the space that they feel comfortable and also find commonality in just everyday hobbies at the same time.
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Yeah, no, thank thank you, Steph.
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And you hit the nail on the head there.
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That there's well when when there's no outlet, you know, the the pressure builds up unless there's a valve to let it all out.
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And it's it's literal, like it's not just metaphorical, that that it literally builds inside the body, um, which I only you know have realized in recent years.
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And then that, like you said, it can spill out in a fight in a relationship or avoidant behavior or you know, toxic um like coping mechanisms and addictions and all the rest.
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So um, yeah, I I think now more than ever, it's never been more important to find a safe outline for sure.
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It's almost like high-functioning um addictions in some ways that they can you you see that more often, like you wouldn't even know that they're struggling because they're so high functioning all the time, and until obviously something's gotta give at some point.
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Oh, for sure.
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Yeah.
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And you know, it doesn't always have to be drugs and alcohol.
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I mean, it can be subtle, it can just be mindless scrolling or buying like just retail therapy to the max, purchasing things that you just genuinely don't need um to get that short hit of dopamine.
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Um, or just chasing chasing money and deals and superficial trappings of success.
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Like the the addictions are subtle and on the outside it can look really impressive, which makes it even even more um yeah, I guess, con concerning because it may be difficult to read for those people around that guy um to see that he might be really struggling.
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Yeah, it's like compensating for something by always working towards the next big project or the next paycheck and and um not really sitting with yourself or being okay with what you have in the moment.
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Yeah.
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100%.
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So when you talk about men's liberation, um you already explained a bit, obviously, about what men are being liberated from.
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It's almost they're liberated from this pressure and themselves and this facade they put up, but how does that liberation directly improve the way they show up in romantic relationships?
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Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
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And I think um to to contextualize liberation, because it sounds really great on like a on like a bumper scale or you know, like a hallmark card or something, I don't know.
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But um yeah, the way I define liberation and as it relates to my journey and sort of the the lane that that I'm working in is liberation from the this core wound of unworthiness that I would assert all of us have uh or have struggled with in some way, shape, or form.
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Like I don't feel like I'm good enough.
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Like I'm not pretty enough, or I'm not strong enough, or I'm not rich enough, or I'm not smart enough, right?
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Like it's this unworthiness wound.
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And more often than not, that's picked up through the um like through through a father wound.
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At least that that's what I've noticed in my work.
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Um, and that is like when we're not made to feel like we are good enough or like we need to do more, um, then that starts the the chain reaction of uh overcompensating, like like you were saying before, Stephanie.
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Um yeah, and that can that can look like yeah, chasing the superficial trappings of success, or or you know, maybe you don't feel like you're enough in social interactions and you feel like you need to numb out, whatever it is.
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Um and then in relationships, it it can look like uh, you know, perhaps chasing um like emotionally unavailable uh women to reinforce that idea that love is distant or that I have to perform for love.
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Like I need to, I can't just be myself.
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I have to constantly put on this persona of achieving and performing and producing and providing to feel a sense of love.
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Um and also um, like I think you know, we we connected through through the content that I've been sharing recently is around, you know, that whole idea that that love is like work.
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I was speaking to um your friend about this recently as well.
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Like intimacy is so different to work, so so different, and that might seem self-explanatory, but a lot of guys treat it as exactly the same.
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Like at work, my career, I need to perform at my best, I need to manage this.
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You know, it's it's very like logistical and logical.
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But in intimacy and relationships, it requires vulnerability, it requires softness, it requires playfulness, it requires gentleness, you know, it's completely different, completely different.
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And so, and so a lot of guys um yeah, slip into this, I need to prove for love, and then you know, it leads to a lot of those um unhealthy testing behaviors, like I need to test her loyalty.
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And um, yeah, I mean, all of the stuff that you can do around communication and compatibility is great, but if a man is still insecure, if he still doesn't feel like he's like, like he doesn't realize or acknowledge his own self-worth, then he'll continue to just play out patterns and and continue to you know confuse women um that genuinely love him for who he is, um, or he'll continue to attract the same uh woman in in different clothing that you know just continues to reinforce that he is not good enough.
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So the path to liberation is about liberating oneself from not good enoughness, from unworthiness, because that's that root cause approach.
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I I I I'm really big on root cause principles, because all of the stuff that we see in behavior, in communication, in conduct, in relationships, business, career, all of that is a is a byproduct of the self-imposed constraints that you have in your subconscious.
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And this is the core one around unworthiness.
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Once that's healed and once that's addressed and integrated, then you know, men, people start operating from a greater level of peace and love and and self-worth and and power as well.
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Do you notice that with some of your clients, if they're in relationships, when they become they like there could be a shift where they start becoming avoidant once that mask kind of drops and they become more vulnerable with their partner or they show their imperfections and they're not performing, you know, to maybe they're not like the most outgoing or the most on like on top of it person that they maybe sold themselves as in the beginning of the relationship.
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Do you see that men come to you and are like, I don't know what to do, I'm scared to continue in this relationship, or I don't feel like it's right, or or something like that.
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Like just the way there's like a shift in that behavior.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:27:20.000
And I I think the word that you used is spot on, Stephanie, around terrified, because uh, you know, like in in a lot of cases, uh, the boy who was raised in an environment when he he may have been feeling scared and wanted to cry, but was made to feel like that's weak, has now grown up into a man who is terrified of his own softness and has actively suppressed that part of him.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:54.400
So then he gets into a relationship which obviously demands softness and closeness and vulnerability, and there's the initial stages of attraction and courtship and the chemistry is there, but as the relationship deepens and you know she shares more of herself and she wants to, you know, share she wants him to share more of himself, that triggers that part of him that you know he's suppressed and his nervous system freaks out because it's not something that he's ever uh experienced.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:01.519
It's been told that it's learned that it's it's a bad thing, that it's not safe, it's not safe to be me.
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.400
It's not safe to show all of who I am.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:17.039
And so that's when you get all that, like you know, canceling plans at the last minute or going quiet, you know, giving the silent treatment, um, testing her loyalty and and all of this stuff.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.279
It's it's it's an unconscious pattern that he's running.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.279
He doesn't realize that he's running it.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:35.440
Um, she doesn't even realize that she's being tested, but it's just like it it requires him to really integrate, which is why I'm big on um shadow integration.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:42.400
Because the shadow is that part of our or parts of ourselves that we have denied or that we have hidden or rejected.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:29:01.599
And if you have a soft side that you've rejected, then how can you possibly thrive in intimacy and relationships and have a deep, meaningful, um, you know, intimate relationship with a partner if you're suppressing, you know, the very thing that makes it worthwhile and sustainable?
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:02.799
Yeah.
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:07.359
So they they often just start self-sabotaging.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:21.200
And so what is can you give me an example basically if you had a client who was starting to self-sabotage or show avoidant tendencies or test their partner, how would you intercept it?
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.640
What kind of work would you?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.039
What is like an example of the shadow work you do?
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:38.160
And and how would you explain, you know, because you can explain how being vulnerable is a good thing, it's a superpower, how this person seeing you for who you are and at your weakest moments is is a good thing.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:46.480
And you know, it's also showing you if they that person walks away from you when you are vulnerable, then they're just not meant for you.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.720
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, for sure.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:03.440
Well, I mean, yeah, as I've said, I guess uh a man who is constantly proving his worth, or you know, because he doesn't feel like he's enough, can't be fully present with his partner.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:11.440
And so that um more often than not stems from this uh unprocessed shame.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:17.359
So unworthiness or not good enoughness actually is an emotion that lives in the nervous system.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:36.160
And I mean, a few years ago that may have seemed wild and out there, but there's so much research now to demonstrate that Candace Purt spoke about uh molecules of emotion, Bessel Vanderkoek, um, the body keeps the score.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:43.920
These are all amazing thought leaders that have uh pointed to emotions being stored in the body.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:51.200
So shame is uh emotion that's stored in the body that makes a genuine intimacy impossible.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.519
So if a man doesn't feel good enough, he will sabotage the relationship in all kinds of those ways that we've explored.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:09.119
So my work revolves around helping to guide men to uh access that shame that lives inside them.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:40.720
You know, we use different somatic tools like breath work, EFT tapping, um, and to actually feel that shame fully, feel uh and and um say out loud the things that have been held back, like I am terrified of being alone, or you know, when I'm alone, I don't matter, or I um, you know, it's I'm afraid to be me.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:59.359
Whatever it is, like whenever that young boy um was was afraid to to express in that moment, that's that's what's being held in the body, and the nervous system takes so much more energy to hold on to an emotion than to let it go.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:15.359
But we just get stuck in these holding patterns and in these, you know, in these reflexes which inhibit us from accessing our our true capacity for intimacy and connection with others.
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:33.920
And when that shame is released, and it's typically accompanied by crying or an emotional response of some sort, that that is that I I believe that that is liberation because then you're actually healing at the root cause as opposed to circling around the pattern, talking about it, intellectualizing it.
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:39.839
Again, don't get me wrong, it serves a purpose and it's yes, right?
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:55.359
Yes, we have an awareness of what's going on, and let's you know get to the emotion that's starting and perpetuating this pattern and finding out you know what what parts of yourself have you rejected or denied or suppressed in your body.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:07.839
Let's acknowledge them, let's embrace them, let them speak, let the let you know, let that young boy say and express and feel what he never got a chance to feel, and access that that softness.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:14.160
And and that that I you know, I I would assert is is is is true masculinity.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:22.880
It's it's being able to act that that softness and that love and that playfulness that we always had, you know, growing up.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.160
Yeah, everyone.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:25.759
It started that way.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:27.359
Yeah.
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:28.240
Yeah.
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:39.599
So can you explain a little bit more about um the concept of shame that a lot of men deal with?
00:33:43.759 --> 00:34:04.960
I guess just behaviors like like shame and then you know, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, like how those all play into it.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:06.559
Hmm.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:16.480
Yeah, well, look, I mean, uh as I said, I think every single one of us um experience experience imposter syndrome in some way, shape, or form.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:39.119
Um and uh you know, in my own experience and and with clients that I've worked with, is that they're like it typically are these core memories that get formed early on in our lives where we learned that whoever we are fundamentally isn't enough.
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:57.760
Like I'm not okay as I am, and and that shame, like I said, you know, emotion, energy, in motion, but when it's not in motion, it's trapped in the body, in the tissues or in the mus muscular fascia.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:02.719
And it's because yeah, I never allowed myself to to fully feel that.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:14.800
Um that that then manifests as as tightness in the jaw or in the chest, shallow breathing or tight hips, right?
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:22.719
That's that's why like the somatic work is really important to to access that that shame and to feel it fully.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:33.280
Now, if if it's remains suppressed, um, like I said, you know, this is the shadow, it's everything that we decided wasn't acceptable.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:51.280
Um, so it's not acceptable to be to be soft or to be playful um or to be vulnerable, then um, and and you know, it could could could be anger, neediness, jealousy, fear, ambition, sexuality, it could be all kinds of these things.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:36:00.079
But but suppressed doesn't necessarily mean it's gone, as we've said and as we've explored, and I hope is pretty self-explanatory by now for everyone.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.039
It it goes underground and it comes out sideways.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:19.039
So that shame shows up as like you know, really disproportionate reactions, emotional shutdown, trying to control the partner, jealousy, the push-pull dynamics, you know, it's just like it's and it's so frustrating.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.159
I get it.
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:33.679
And and the the partners that we attract often trigger the shadow because intimacy is where our defenses are at our lowest.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:39.840
Um and and so relationships are a gift in so many ways.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.559
I believe it's also a a great gift because it's the best place to do shadow work.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:52.639
Um your partner yeah triggers these these wounds in you so that you can heal them and and and work with them.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:37:16.559
Um now, if we don't, then yeah, of course, it it those those behaviors continue to perpetuate, not only in relationships, but also in your career, like like we've said, overfunctioning, overworking, chasing the rewards, um, people pleasing at work, sacrificing needs just to get that sense of external validation and recognition.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:22.960
And then you get it, and it's like a hit of a drug for a few seconds or a minute or a day.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:33.840
But then because that root cause, that shame that's living somewhere in your body hasn't been healed and addressed, then the cycle continues to repeat itself.
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:44.239
And sadly, people go their whole lives running like this, not realizing that it's not actually who they are, it's just something that they picked up early on in life.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:47.119
And it's it's this mask, like like me.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:48.400
I mean, there's no judgment here.
00:37:48.400 --> 00:38:00.639
Like I said, for practically you know, three decades almost, I was you know, the the achiever and the people pleaser, um, and the perfectionist and the overgiver.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.559
Um, and it served me until until it didn't.
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:22.400
And you know, I attracted all kinds of relationships and circumstances and situations that helped bring um you know, bring these wounds to the surface and help me work with them and and realize that, oh man, like I'm I'm actually I'm actually pretty cool.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:28.480
Like I'm you know, I I don't need anything else out there to to tell me that.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:34.320
And and usually it takes a breakdown or a breakthrough um to get there.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.320
But but you know, it's it's been a gift.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:54.960
It's been a gift, and and that's what this work allows, you know, to to kind of consciously move through it as opposed to ending up um, you know, like how I did, getting pulled over with drugs in my system and going to court or having really heavy relationship breakdowns and all of this stuff.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:08.639
I mean, stuff will happen, um, but you know, I think the importance of this work is you can kind of you get to heal on on your terms in in a way.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:15.840
Do you did you find that in your own relationships you had like avoidant tendencies?
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:18.880
Both.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:21.760
Yeah, I I've had I've had both sides.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:34.400
So yeah, in in earlier relationships, I yeah, I was afraid of like getting really, really close and being vulnerable and then would slink away.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:50.880
Um, and that was around the same time when I started uh engaging in in substances and being the party boy, and that was my way of avoiding intimacy and distracting myself and numbing myself.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:40:08.320
And then I've been on the other side as well, where I yeah, just gave all of myself and more and and put um you know my partner on a pedestal and and made her the centerpiece of the relationship and abandoned my needs in the process.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:31.920
And then I I didn't feel chosen, um, which reinforced the belief that I'm not good enough and encouraged me to look at that and uh work on it and get to a place where uh I feel more secure in my self-worth.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:40.320
And you know, now I'm yeah, grateful to to have attracted someone who who sees me and and who meets me at my um level.
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:56.800
And so that's uh that's I hope that that can serve as a testimony to to the power of this work, uh, because yeah, your your partners will always reflect back to you what what you believe about yourself.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:12.719
So uh sure you change those fundamental beliefs about how worthy or unworthy you are, um, you know, then you'll continue to repeat those same cycles and the same partners in different costumes.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:46.719
It almost seems that sometimes the healthiest relationships you get in are the most painful in some ways because of inner turmoil that comes up and that and all of those demons almost that show up and you have to face and then realize that you haven't or you thought you did, and maybe they come back, and things that you you learn to cope with them once the coping skills maybe don't work the same in this this current relationship.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.480
100%.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:42:01.840
Yeah, and yeah, I mean if if you've run the same coping skills over and over again it keeps on happening, then right you have to ask yourself, Well, I are you are you healing or are you just coping?
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:14.559
Because most most of us are just coping, and you know, we're we're still ending up in the same relationships, same nervous system, but different, different partner.
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:21.039
Um, and we're trying to to cope with it, and it's not really working.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:27.679
So yeah, that's um I'm I'm glad that you use that word because this is a really important distinction between the two.
00:42:28.400 --> 00:43:03.360
Yeah, and you mentioned ner your nervous system a lot, and I feel like this is like something newer to me in just understanding my nervous system, and I'm a nurse, but I you know, I understand it from a biological standpoint, but just you know, being someone who can high high function in a high stress environment, handle stress really well, but almost I almost don't even recognize sometimes my own nervous systems shutting down or or how I'm reacting to things.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:16.079
How do you help people kind of tap into that or reset their nervous system, even if they're not quite aware of what's going on or how to how to manage it?
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:24.079
Yeah, no, I'm I'm glad that you asked that because the nervous system, it's just like the buzzword, right?
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:27.280
It's used so liberally in this space.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:32.320
So I always want to try and ground it as you know in practical terms.
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.320
It is an electrical system, right, that operates in us.
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.079
And I think it's the most intelligent piece of machinery that we have.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:44:03.039
Um and pretty much dictates how much how much energy and and and presence uh and uh capacity for for softness and intimacy we have if we're talking about relationships or um or you know stamina and And energy and and and focus if we're working.
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:16.559
So if someone's feeling activated, for instance, like the nervous system is in fight or flight or they're shutting down, firstly, you can't access your prefrontal cortex.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:24.079
So that means you can't access empathy, nuance, problem solving, real active listening.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:31.360
So obviously that's not going to help in any situation, whether it's a relationship context or a work context.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:35.519
It's pretty vital to have access to prefrontal cortex.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:45:04.400
Um and the like I said before, so there's a lot of stuff out there around um uh like meditation and therapy and communication skills and and regulation and and stuff like that, and doing box breathing and and all of that's helpful for regulating, so coming back to a state of calm and peace and entering the parasympathetic um uh yeah activation of the nervous system.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:31.119
However, if if we're holding on to suppressed emotion like shame, if our nervous system still thinks that we're under threat because of uh an experience that we had when we were younger, I mean you can you can talk about it, you can um meditate, but it's not gonna actually address this suppressed emotion that's living in in your nervous system.
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:53.920
So my work really focuses on it's like a a deeper form of of healing where you do um like clear the emotional charge from the nervous system first because that that like all of your nervous system's resources are going towards keeping this emotion held and stored.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.679
And and you know, you it it like your system feels like it's under threat, it's under attack.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:08.000
I need to pull all my resources to hold on to this emotion because I'm afraid of what might happen if I actually let it go.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:17.039
You know, I'm afraid that if I allow myself to to be soft and playful like I was when I was younger, I would get beaten, right?
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:23.119
Or if I cried, I would get uh you know, screamed at and and shouted at and told off.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.159
So I have to hold on to this emotion, right?
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:48.960
So so nervous system work uh and the way I work with clients as well is around firstly liberating um or or discharging that pressed emotion and then introducing different practices like breath work, like meditation, grounding, all of that stuff to help you come back to center.
00:46:48.960 --> 00:47:06.639
Um, because then it's actually going to stick and you have a more flexible nervous system, like an elastic band that can, you know, that can fire up and then also can come back to to a state of calm, as opposed to always being in that fight or flight state because of a suppressed emotion.
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:21.679
And so that's really powerful because you know, men in my work who learn to regulate can then pause before unconsciously reacting, shutting down, you know, screaming at their partner.
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:25.840
They can stay present and calm under pressure.
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:37.119
They can hear their partner if their partner's bringing something to the table that um is challenging them and they won't go defensive or shrink down.
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:48.559
And so it's really, really powerful because it's the difference between responding from your values and your true self as opposed to just consciously reacting from your trauma and your wounds.
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:50.639
And that's, I mean, I think that's everything.
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.199
I think it's the most important work you could ever do.
00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:15.280
Yeah, because if you just react immediately and you don't even know why you're reacting that way, and then you carry on with your day, and then it you maybe you suppress that argument, and then another argument comes out, and you still don't know why you're communicating poorly and having you're missing each other and things like that, and it's just gonna implode the relationship or whatever dynamic you have.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.679
But yeah, how do you incorporate kind of self-talk into that?
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:30.480
Because you know, you see a lot how the way you talk to yourself is really so important in training your brain and like almost creating these new neural pathways.
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:40.480
Because you know, what if you have these thoughts about yourself, like, oh, I'm immediately gonna be um punished for being vulnerable or crying, like I better not do that.
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:44.480
You kind of have to retrain your brain, and I think self-talk has a lot to do with that.
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.880
So, how do you kind of incorporate that?
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:53.119
Uh personally, or with like in my look, yeah.
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.760
Yeah, um, look, I mean, I I I think self-talk is so important.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:12.239
Um, you know, I've worked with affirmations and mantras, and you you know, the most important relationship that you'll ever build is the one with yourself, uh, because that'll then influence how you relate to everyone around you.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.280
So 100% like self-talk is super important.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:38.800
However, like I said, the like you can you can affirm to yourself that I am safe and loving and a supportive partner and a um confident, calm, controlled leader until the cows come home.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:52.159
But if your body is still under threat, if your nervous system thinks that you're in danger, if you're still holding on to suppressed shame or anger, like talking isn't gonna really do much.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:53.840
It's not gonna do much at all.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:02.159
Um, it might even actually make things worse because you are saying something that your body knows is is a is a lie.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:14.159
And so I think like there is there is a process, um, like like I touched on briefly, the somatic work first because these patterns live in the body, not the mind.
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:24.960
Then, you know, using different tools like EFT tapping, parts work, shadow work, um, to lower the emotional charge around specific beliefs.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:51:14.719
And then once the nervous system is kind of freed up from this baggage, then you can get into more of the cognitive work around identity and self-talk and building a specific self-image or identity around someone who is loving and kind and supportive and um you know is is soft and playful, and you know, I'm I I I have capacity for for closeness and intimacy and all of these beautiful things because the body is more likely to accept that as true once it knows it's no longer in danger, once it it feels at a somatic level that being vulnerable is actually safe, that being fully skin, warts, and all is is actually is actually safe.
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:20.559
So so yeah, to answer your question, self-talk is important, but the order matters.
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:28.480
So safety first, then insight, and then self-talk to to help with the behavioral change.
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:28.800
Yeah.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.159
Because a lot of approaches tend to skip that that first step.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:37.920
I find that interesting you mentioned you know, talking almost can be detrimental to it.
00:51:37.920 --> 00:52:02.559
And I think about how sometimes talk therapy can be kind of it's like using talk therapy can be an amazing tool for people, but in some cases it's it's it almost overly reinforces the issues in your head and doesn't actually help anything.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:36.719
It almost creates more overthinking and more problems, and you're maybe misdiagnosing things or misdiagnosing yourself, and you're you know, I mean, if you're in a relationship and you're avoidant and you could be like put putting blame on the on the person that you're with instead of taking a look at yourself and you use talk there to be like, these are all the problem, the reasons that this person's wrong, or or whatever whatever it is, and then you're really not getting to the root of the issue because you're scared to even go there because of how your body reacts to it.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:39.360
Oh, spot on, yeah.
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:52.320
And yeah, because it's just frustrating because maybe and look, maybe you get like a sense of like brief relief talking about it and venting, of course, like there's value in that.
00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:02.079
Um, but yeah, I mean you come back, uh you know, it's the same nervous system that that walks back into that relationship out of the therapist's office.
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:08.239
Um, you know, if it's just like cognitive stuff, uh and and you know, the pattern repeats itself.
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:13.119
So so yeah, it it plays a part, it it serves a purpose.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.599
Um it's not the only tool I think that we have to use.
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.119
I think it's it's yes and and and going deeper.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.039
Um but like that was my journey, right?
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:40.880
Like, I don't think I I had I don't think I had the like confidence or courage to or even the the knowledge to dive deeper into like somatic work and and healing straight away.
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.519
I don't think I yeah, I don't think I ever knew what it was.
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:48.480
All I knew about was was therapy and talking about things.
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:52.639
Um and so yeah, like I think it's just a maturity thing.
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:54.559
It's around and a readiness thing.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:54:07.679
Like once once your nervous system actually feels safe enough to feel, um, then that's usually a you know an indicator that you're ready to to go into this work.
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.760
And and you'll feel called to it.
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:23.599
I mean, if someone's listening to this podcast and is like, oh, I I think I think I really uh would benefit from doing this kind of work, that's your nervous system telling you unconsciously that that you're ready to feel your emotions fully.
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:30.159
Um, those that don't may still want to explore therapy and and get value from it in that way.
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:31.280
And that's okay, right?
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.400
It's not everyone's on their own journey.
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:45.599
Yeah, I always think sometimes it's like you can psychoanalyze yourself to death, but there has to be some other ways of reaching, you know, resetting your brain.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:52.000
And there's so many different therapies out there and techniques that you can kind of hamburger them together.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.960
But I think you know, it brings me to your Instagram posts and the the work you're doing.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:10.000
I think that putting that information out there is so important for men, especially, because there are a lot of men who are feeling these ways and don't know even what that means.
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:26.320
So seeing a post where you're explaining something of like an avoidant behavior or a high-achieving man, you know, not feeling valued or only feeling valued for being a provider and a protector and and feeling like he has to keep that up.
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:47.920
That information, just being out there for a man uh someone to see even when they are doom scrolling, is so important because it kind of they can have that light bulb moment where they're like, that's me, and I have been struggling, and someone gets it, which is kind of the best moment to have.
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:50.639
Oh, for sure.
00:55:50.639 --> 00:56:00.960
And look, uh, I mean, if if I I can help one guy see themselves in that, or want one woman as well, um, see themselves in that, then then I I'm I'm doing my job.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.400
Um because that's how it starts, right?
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:11.599
I mean, that's like most of like TV ratings are going down, people are sticking to social media.
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:17.039
Um, that's just the way to connect um these days and to to to cut through.
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:32.320
So I think um, yeah, even that brief glimpse of like, oh man, this this person really gets me, um, yeah, can can start or can be the first step in someone's decision to you know look at their patterns uh and and heal.
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:38.639
So um, yeah, and we wouldn't be having this conversation this conversation without it.
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:40.000
So I'm really grateful.
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:51.840
Yeah, I mean it it's I think a lot more men from all over the world are struggling with exactly these issues way more than people even talk about.
00:56:51.840 --> 00:57:08.559
And I think women are really open about talking about their feelings and their emotions and getting on Instagram and talking about their feelings and their emotions, but it's definitely a different thing for men, and just being hyper-masculine is is really pushed out into the universe.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:16.559
You have to be like the most manly man and eat, you know, tallow cooked steak and all that, which is great for you.
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:26.320
But you know, it's just it's kind of perpetuating this narrative that you have to be like the biggest manly man ever in order to be accepted.
00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:28.960
So I think the work you're doing is so important.
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:31.760
And thank you so much for coming on and talking to me.
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:45.039
I will obviously link all of your socials and hopefully we get some people to sign up for your program and and hire you because you're healing men, and that's important.
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:47.840
Just one more question for you, basically.
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:56.800
What is if you could give advice to one man listening right now, what would that piece of advice be?
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:05.599
Your softness is your strength.
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:08.079
That's excellent advice.
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:08.719
I love that.
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:10.960
All right, David, thank you so much for coming on.
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:13.119
Yeah, no, thank you again, Stephanie.
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:17.039
It's really, really cool to create this little offering with you.
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:23.599
And um, yeah, I really love your work and appreciate you for raising awareness about around mental health.
00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:25.440
Join our community.
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:32.639
Subscribe now to Headcase because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:07.919
Welcome back to Headcase.
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:09.439
I'm Stephanie Hoffman.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:13.359
This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human.
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Let's dive in.
00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:15.919
Hi everyone.
00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:17.679
Welcome back to Headcase.
00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:19.280
I'm here with David Tuteau.
00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:24.879
He is a men's liberation coach, speaker, and host of the podcast Liberated, based in Melbourne, Australia.
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He works with men and high-achieving professionals and entrepreneurs to dissolve the unconscious patterns of driving their anxiety, burnout, and self-doubt at the root, blending in system work, somatic healing, shadow integration, and subconscious reprogramming.
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David is a LinkedIn top voice in mental health, a partner, a mentor, and executive judge for the Seven News Young Achiever Awards, and an ambassador for the Australian and New Zealand Mental Health Association.
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His work is shaped by his own lived experience navigating family trauma, identity collapse, and the rebuilding of life rooted in purpose rather than pressure.
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Welcome, David.
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Thank you so much, Stephanie.
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Lovely to be here and to support your awesome mission.
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Yeah, I loved your content on Instagram.
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I thought it was such an unique angle and really important work that you're doing.
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So I absolutely needed to have you on this podcast.
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So I'm just gonna dive in and ask you questions right away.
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But um so you've spoken about growing up as the good one and the responsible one in an immigrant family.
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How did that early identity shape your view of what it meant to be a man?
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And when did that mask finally start to crack?
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That's an awesome question.
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So, for context, my family emigrated to Australia from Romania and carried their own unique traumas and challenges with poverty and discrimination and um, yeah, just a lot of adversity uh that they faced on the way over here.
00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:21.120
And when I grew up in in you know, in that house around my family, it kind of felt like the only way for there to be a sense of safety or to bring us all together was when I was achieving.
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So I quickly learned that love, approval, validation is conditional based on my performance.
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So when I did really well, got a good grade, or crushed it in I don't know, rowing or soccer.
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Uh then yeah, I um, you know, gave us a reason to celebrate and and to come together.
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And and so then I made the achiever my identity, and that's just the the mask that I put on, so to speak.
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And yeah, the mask didn't necessarily crack, it did collapse, and it took a lot of pressure to get there.
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Uh I and it followed me all throughout school, obviously, and then into university and uh achieving throughout biomedicine, not because I was really I mean, I was interested in healthcare, but I learned shortly thereafter that I was doing it to make my parents proud of me, right?
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And I think most of us, if not all, can relate to that at some point in our journey.
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Um and then and then yeah, I I struggled to find my feet in a career, in a workplace where I felt like I belonged and which really lit me up, coupled with my own unique challenges, um, trying to cope with the pressure of feeling like I was behind in life and uh struggling to process my parents' divorce and my dad's you know mental health challenges as well.
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Uh I uh yeah, I was just crumbling under a lot of pressure, and I actually went into um the mental health space.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:24.879
I felt like that was the only real uh next step that could allow me to process what I was going through and kind of transmute some of the dense emotions that I was experiencing into something valuable to serve others.
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And even though that was really beautiful and getting to build a company and and surround myself with an amazing team, build an app, run workshops and and you know, serve the community.
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Uh when when it collapsed due to resourcing constraints, I realized that I was still trying to escape this uh fear of not being good enough by um you know chasing what seemed like a really attractive thing, you know, with entrepreneurship and doing your own thing and building your own brand.
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Like it's it seemed really exciting and and sexy and still meaningful, right?
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:02.160
That was still really close to my heart.
00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:02.800
Yeah.
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:13.439
However, there was still an element of that mask driving that behavior so that I could escape the feeling of insecurity or inadequacy or even degeneracy.
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Because I felt like I was kind of off the rails, uh, you know, at the same time with my own um addiction to substances and what have you.
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So um, yeah, what I will say, like anyone who's an immigrant family, like they carry immense sacrifice.
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So this isn't about blame or shame, it's just acknowledging that there's so much um yeah, trauma that gets inherited and passed down generation to generation.
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And so honoring that and acknowledging, you know, the sacrifices that parents and grandparents have made while choosing yourself and your healing and choosing to be the cycle breaker um and you know, the generational curse breaker, if we want to use that word, um, is is one of the central tensions and and I guess cornerstones of of my work, um, so that those unproductive or toxic cycles don't get passed down to future generations as well.
00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:12.639
That's amazing.
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So how did you land in this position?
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Like what was kind of the light bulb moment that led you to say, this is my calling?
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Uh, with with coaching that I'm doing now?
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, I think a number of things.
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So I I realized, and you know, you've you've got your own podcast, Stephanie.
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It'd be great to hear from you as well around what the journey has been like going out on your own.
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And I feel like it's kind of like personal development on crack, like all of your wounds, all of your ideas, all of your limiting beliefs just get reflected back to you when you dive into something like entrepreneurship.
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Um, and so when I was building my first business in the mental health space, I was really coming up against a lot of um, yeah, like money wounds and you know, people-pleasing uh tendencies and you know, validation seeking and all of this stuff emerged.
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Um and I realized that, you know, I mean, I felt blessed.
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I had a lot of great support around me.
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Um, but a lot of entrepreneurs and founders and professionals that I saw doing particularly well had invested in their own sort of inner work.
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And those that weren't or that were really struggling, myself included, hustling, grinding, operating from a very fear-driven mentality, um consistently led to cycles of burnout, stress, anxiety, you know, like shallow um relationships, and yeah, just a lot of unnecessary suffering.
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And so uh my own journey with healing started with psychology and psychotherapy.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:23.519
So I noticed this in my work, and then in my own healing journey, I got a lot of great awareness and intellectual understanding around my patterns, why I was numbing out, why I was distracting myself, um, and ending up in the same cycles of anxiety or depression.
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But that didn't actually shift things.
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I still continued to experience, you know, those those patterns repeating themselves.
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Right.
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And so that drove me deeper into um somatic work and connecting to the body and learning all about the body keeps the score and how you can't outthink your way out of trauma that's held in the nervous system, excuse me, and um and then shadow work as well.
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So learning about all of the different parts of ourselves that we reject or deny or keep hidden from the world.
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Um and that, you know, all all of the that phase of my healing journey was really, really profound and really helped me unburden myself from from you know these emotions that I was holding on to.
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And I noticed that there was a lot of conversation around this, but not many men um like admitting yeah that that they needed the help.
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And you know, that's been a pretty big theme throughout my family and throughout um my my work as well, like and just society.
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I mean, we lose a guide to to suicide every minute, um, which is pretty confronting to say the least.
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At the same time, it's really inspiring uh for me because I know that there's work to be done, and I want to help um, you know, men be able to come back to what really is important, which is to feel.
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I mean, for everyone, certainly, but at least in the lane that I'm in at the moment.
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Um, at the end of the day, we have been so conditioned and so programmed to do everything but feel our emotions fully.
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You know, there's ice bars and there's saunas and there's journaling and there's meditation and mindfulness.
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And don't get me wrong, I mean, they're all amazing tools.
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Therapy, of course, right?
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They all play an important part, and there is like a journey you're gone.
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:40.559
At the same time, though, you if you just do that, you can become very, very effective at avoiding your emotions.
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And that's, I believe, where the goal is, because that's how you can actually heal a pattern at the root cause.
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That's what I've seen in my journey.
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That's what I've seen in working with clients.
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And I wanted to kind of offer that to the world and to, I guess, the the guy that I I was uh, you know, a few years ago, um struggling on his mental health and healing journey and seeking and struggling to find answers.
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:13.600
Um, I kind of wanted to be that that hero for me and and and here we are.
00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:14.559
That's amazing.
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Yeah, I feel like it you you can find little pieces that help you through therapy or uh physical exercise and maybe meditation, but having it kind of a tailored program where you hit all of it together is so unique.
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So that's amazing.
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And especially, I mean, I do agree that men in general just have a harder time expressing their emotions or understanding their emotions and constantly bury them in order to not be perceived a certain way and you know, be all stoic and you know, a manly man and very macho and everything.
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Yeah, it's so last century.
00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.679
I know, so over.
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:16.960
Um then so you've you you mentioned that your father had some mental health issues that um affected you growing up, so he attempted suicide, if I'm not mistaken.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:28.639
And um how did that obviously majorly impact your life, but how did that change your view of what it means to be like a strong man?
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.840
And how did that moment lead you to um link mate?
00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:38.639
Yeah, yeah, beautiful, thank you, um, Stephanie.
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So I I think like most of us grew up watching my my parents and my dad as superheroes, you know, like just providing, putting food on the table, taking me to to sport and to to school and all of these things.
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Um and like I mentioned before, that there was like a lot of unprocessed trauma, you know, in in that household of no fault of anyone.
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It's just the reality of you know the the generational um programming.
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Uh and and then you know, when my parents divorced, and I'm an only child, so I didn't really feel like I could turn to anyone.
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I also moved to college, so I was living on campus, away from family, feeling really alone, and um as was my dad, you know, he was feeling really alone, very lonely, and um, you know, that that uh separation, that divorce really took a massive toll on him, um, as it did for me.
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And I I mean I grew up on the narrative with dad, as I'm sure for with a lot of dads, there's there's this narrative like put up, shut up, and get on with it.
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Um and you know, I made that part of my achiever identity, so I was very good, you know, like he said before, Stephanie, being the stoic warrior that just sucks it all up and then keeps on pushing.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:28.159
And um and so when I was really struggling with like substance abuse and and struggling to find a sense of like peace in my mind and body, I I didn't really know who to turn to.
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I I took a punt or I I I rolled the dice to see if how that conversation might go with my dad, knowing that perhaps I just get the same answer that I always got around, you know, just put up, shut up, and get on with it.
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.799
Um, but something different happened and something special happened.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.720
Um, he actually acknowledged uh you know me and validated what I was going through.
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And then almost as though he felt he now had permission to open up as well, he shared all of the challenges and the trauma he faced, migrating um from a foreign country and the toll that the divorce took on him, and then his attempt to end his life.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.039
And of course, you know, it was really confronting hearing that.
00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:24.960
At the same time, though, it was quite um liberating, I think, for both of us.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:37.519
Uh, you know, witnessing my father at his most vulnerable, just completely dismantled this idea or this concept of strength and masculinity that I'd been sold by him.
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.639
Um, and you know, it was really beautiful.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:51.360
And we got a chance to just hold space for one another and not try to fix or diagnose what we were going through, um, but just to hear each other out.
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And I realized, you know, men are dying and people are dying because they have no language for what's happening inside them and no safe place to take it, where they feel seen and understood and accepted and held non-judgmentally, compassionately.
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:12.320
And so that inspired the idea for Linkmate.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:24.559
Um, like, what if there was somewhere to go before a crisis point before you know someone um even starts considering an option like suicide?
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:45.919
And that sort of interaction between dad and I became a like a not not necessarily a test bed, but yeah, it spawned the idea for a space, a virtual space, a digital space where people who shared similar things or similar interests or hobbies or lived experiences could come together.
00:16:45.919 --> 00:17:07.680
So if if you had been struggling with I don't know, like work-related stress, yeah, ADHD diagnosis, and you also are into yoga and cooking, then you could connect with someone else who shared those attributes, those characteristics, those challenges.
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:16.720
They were trained in peer support, so to actually hold space for you with um empathy and and active listening.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:24.640
And yeah, just just uh just to chat in the same way that you would with a mate or with a friend, um, as we would say in Australia.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:37.519
So so yeah, that was, I think, a big moment for me, not just because you know, I got to build something, but uh turning uh like a moment of personal pain into something purposeful.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:53.519
Um and um yeah, so yeah, so to this day, very grateful for dad sharing that vulnerably because that that's you know massively catalyzed my own journey and and how I look at mental health and and how I serve uh in this space.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.519
Yeah, I think that's so important.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:18.640
I think statistically, or something, there's the highest amount of suicide rates come from men, particularly high-achieving men in general, and how much pressure they put on themselves, how much pressure they feel there's so much pressure to perform, to provide, and just be protectors and all of that.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:24.480
And then there's just no outlet for all of that energy to go.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:38.960
And then if something goes wrong, they just don't know where to turn, and or you know, they could be raised like with someone saying therapy is for weak people, or they're not raised with therapy and their parents never have done it, so they don't know.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.559
I mean, it can be generational and cultural and things like that.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:56.960
So that's really that's really amazing that you're able to bring people together in the space that they feel comfortable and also find commonality in just everyday hobbies at the same time.
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.319
Yeah, no, thank thank you, Steph.
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.039
And you hit the nail on the head there.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:10.559
That there's well when when there's no outlet, you know, the the pressure builds up unless there's a valve to let it all out.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:20.400
And it's it's literal, like it's not just metaphorical, that that it literally builds inside the body, um, which I only you know have realized in recent years.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:34.880
And then that, like you said, it can spill out in a fight in a relationship or avoidant behavior or you know, toxic um like coping mechanisms and addictions and all the rest.
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:43.119
So um, yeah, I I think now more than ever, it's never been more important to find a safe outline for sure.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:59.759
It's almost like high-functioning um addictions in some ways that they can you you see that more often, like you wouldn't even know that they're struggling because they're so high functioning all the time, and until obviously something's gotta give at some point.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:01.519
Oh, for sure.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:01.920
Yeah.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.039
And you know, it doesn't always have to be drugs and alcohol.
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:20.319
I mean, it can be subtle, it can just be mindless scrolling or buying like just retail therapy to the max, purchasing things that you just genuinely don't need um to get that short hit of dopamine.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:27.039
Um, or just chasing chasing money and deals and superficial trappings of success.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:43.759
Like the the addictions are subtle and on the outside it can look really impressive, which makes it even even more um yeah, I guess, con concerning because it may be difficult to read for those people around that guy um to see that he might be really struggling.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:57.920
Yeah, it's like compensating for something by always working towards the next big project or the next paycheck and and um not really sitting with yourself or being okay with what you have in the moment.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:20:59.039
Yeah.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:20:59.839
100%.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:08.559
So when you talk about men's liberation, um you already explained a bit, obviously, about what men are being liberated from.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:20.480
It's almost they're liberated from this pressure and themselves and this facade they put up, but how does that liberation directly improve the way they show up in romantic relationships?
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.759
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:38.319
And I think um to to contextualize liberation, because it sounds really great on like a on like a bumper scale or you know, like a hallmark card or something, I don't know.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:57.839
But um yeah, the way I define liberation and as it relates to my journey and sort of the the lane that that I'm working in is liberation from the this core wound of unworthiness that I would assert all of us have uh or have struggled with in some way, shape, or form.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759
Like I don't feel like I'm good enough.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:05.839
Like I'm not pretty enough, or I'm not strong enough, or I'm not rich enough, or I'm not smart enough, right?
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.880
Like it's this unworthiness wound.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:18.960
And more often than not, that's picked up through the um like through through a father wound.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.359
At least that that's what I've noticed in my work.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:38.640
Um, and that is like when we're not made to feel like we are good enough or like we need to do more, um, then that starts the the chain reaction of uh overcompensating, like like you were saying before, Stephanie.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:52.079
Um yeah, and that can that can look like yeah, chasing the superficial trappings of success, or or you know, maybe you don't feel like you're enough in social interactions and you feel like you need to numb out, whatever it is.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:23:14.480
Um and then in relationships, it it can look like uh, you know, perhaps chasing um like emotionally unavailable uh women to reinforce that idea that love is distant or that I have to perform for love.
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.640
Like I need to, I can't just be myself.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:24.079
I have to constantly put on this persona of achieving and performing and producing and providing to feel a sense of love.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:38.720
Um and also um, like I think you know, we we connected through through the content that I've been sharing recently is around, you know, that whole idea that that love is like work.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.880
I was speaking to um your friend about this recently as well.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:52.079
Like intimacy is so different to work, so so different, and that might seem self-explanatory, but a lot of guys treat it as exactly the same.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:57.599
Like at work, my career, I need to perform at my best, I need to manage this.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.440
You know, it's it's very like logistical and logical.
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:14.480
But in intimacy and relationships, it requires vulnerability, it requires softness, it requires playfulness, it requires gentleness, you know, it's completely different, completely different.
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:29.920
And so, and so a lot of guys um yeah, slip into this, I need to prove for love, and then you know, it leads to a lot of those um unhealthy testing behaviors, like I need to test her loyalty.
00:24:29.920 --> 00:25:04.960
And um, yeah, I mean, all of the stuff that you can do around communication and compatibility is great, but if a man is still insecure, if he still doesn't feel like he's like, like he doesn't realize or acknowledge his own self-worth, then he'll continue to just play out patterns and and continue to you know confuse women um that genuinely love him for who he is, um, or he'll continue to attract the same uh woman in in different clothing that you know just continues to reinforce that he is not good enough.
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:17.039
So the path to liberation is about liberating oneself from not good enoughness, from unworthiness, because that's that root cause approach.
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:34.640
I I I I'm really big on root cause principles, because all of the stuff that we see in behavior, in communication, in conduct, in relationships, business, career, all of that is a is a byproduct of the self-imposed constraints that you have in your subconscious.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:38.400
And this is the core one around unworthiness.
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:52.000
Once that's healed and once that's addressed and integrated, then you know, men, people start operating from a greater level of peace and love and and self-worth and and power as well.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:26:23.920
Do you notice that with some of your clients, if they're in relationships, when they become they like there could be a shift where they start becoming avoidant once that mask kind of drops and they become more vulnerable with their partner or they show their imperfections and they're not performing, you know, to maybe they're not like the most outgoing or the most on like on top of it person that they maybe sold themselves as in the beginning of the relationship.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:35.440
Do you see that men come to you and are like, I don't know what to do, I'm scared to continue in this relationship, or I don't feel like it's right, or or something like that.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:41.440
Like just the way there's like a shift in that behavior.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:27:20.000
And I I think the word that you used is spot on, Stephanie, around terrified, because uh, you know, like in in a lot of cases, uh, the boy who was raised in an environment when he he may have been feeling scared and wanted to cry, but was made to feel like that's weak, has now grown up into a man who is terrified of his own softness and has actively suppressed that part of him.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:54.400
So then he gets into a relationship which obviously demands softness and closeness and vulnerability, and there's the initial stages of attraction and courtship and the chemistry is there, but as the relationship deepens and you know she shares more of herself and she wants to, you know, share she wants him to share more of himself, that triggers that part of him that you know he's suppressed and his nervous system freaks out because it's not something that he's ever uh experienced.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:01.519
It's been told that it's learned that it's it's a bad thing, that it's not safe, it's not safe to be me.
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.400
It's not safe to show all of who I am.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:17.039
And so that's when you get all that, like you know, canceling plans at the last minute or going quiet, you know, giving the silent treatment, um, testing her loyalty and and all of this stuff.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.279
It's it's it's an unconscious pattern that he's running.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.279
He doesn't realize that he's running it.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:35.440
Um, she doesn't even realize that she's being tested, but it's just like it it requires him to really integrate, which is why I'm big on um shadow integration.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:42.400
Because the shadow is that part of our or parts of ourselves that we have denied or that we have hidden or rejected.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:29:01.599
And if you have a soft side that you've rejected, then how can you possibly thrive in intimacy and relationships and have a deep, meaningful, um, you know, intimate relationship with a partner if you're suppressing, you know, the very thing that makes it worthwhile and sustainable?
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:02.799
Yeah.
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:07.359
So they they often just start self-sabotaging.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:21.200
And so what is can you give me an example basically if you had a client who was starting to self-sabotage or show avoidant tendencies or test their partner, how would you intercept it?
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.640
What kind of work would you?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.039
What is like an example of the shadow work you do?
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:38.160
And and how would you explain, you know, because you can explain how being vulnerable is a good thing, it's a superpower, how this person seeing you for who you are and at your weakest moments is is a good thing.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:46.480
And you know, it's also showing you if they that person walks away from you when you are vulnerable, then they're just not meant for you.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.720
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, for sure.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:03.440
Well, I mean, yeah, as I've said, I guess uh a man who is constantly proving his worth, or you know, because he doesn't feel like he's enough, can't be fully present with his partner.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:11.440
And so that um more often than not stems from this uh unprocessed shame.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:17.359
So unworthiness or not good enoughness actually is an emotion that lives in the nervous system.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:36.160
And I mean, a few years ago that may have seemed wild and out there, but there's so much research now to demonstrate that Candace Purt spoke about uh molecules of emotion, Bessel Vanderkoek, um, the body keeps the score.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:43.920
These are all amazing thought leaders that have uh pointed to emotions being stored in the body.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:51.200
So shame is uh emotion that's stored in the body that makes a genuine intimacy impossible.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.519
So if a man doesn't feel good enough, he will sabotage the relationship in all kinds of those ways that we've explored.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:09.119
So my work revolves around helping to guide men to uh access that shame that lives inside them.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:40.720
You know, we use different somatic tools like breath work, EFT tapping, um, and to actually feel that shame fully, feel uh and and um say out loud the things that have been held back, like I am terrified of being alone, or you know, when I'm alone, I don't matter, or I um, you know, it's I'm afraid to be me.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:59.359
Whatever it is, like whenever that young boy um was was afraid to to express in that moment, that's that's what's being held in the body, and the nervous system takes so much more energy to hold on to an emotion than to let it go.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:15.359
But we just get stuck in these holding patterns and in these, you know, in these reflexes which inhibit us from accessing our our true capacity for intimacy and connection with others.
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:33.920
And when that shame is released, and it's typically accompanied by crying or an emotional response of some sort, that that is that I I believe that that is liberation because then you're actually healing at the root cause as opposed to circling around the pattern, talking about it, intellectualizing it.
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:39.839
Again, don't get me wrong, it serves a purpose and it's yes, right?
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:55.359
Yes, we have an awareness of what's going on, and let's you know get to the emotion that's starting and perpetuating this pattern and finding out you know what what parts of yourself have you rejected or denied or suppressed in your body.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:07.839
Let's acknowledge them, let's embrace them, let them speak, let the let you know, let that young boy say and express and feel what he never got a chance to feel, and access that that softness.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:14.160
And and that that I you know, I I would assert is is is is true masculinity.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:22.880
It's it's being able to act that that softness and that love and that playfulness that we always had, you know, growing up.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.160
Yeah, everyone.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:25.759
It started that way.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:27.359
Yeah.
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:28.240
Yeah.
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:39.599
So can you explain a little bit more about um the concept of shame that a lot of men deal with?
00:33:43.759 --> 00:34:04.960
I guess just behaviors like like shame and then you know, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, like how those all play into it.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:06.559
Hmm.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:16.480
Yeah, well, look, I mean, uh as I said, I think every single one of us um experience experience imposter syndrome in some way, shape, or form.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:39.119
Um and uh you know, in my own experience and and with clients that I've worked with, is that they're like it typically are these core memories that get formed early on in our lives where we learned that whoever we are fundamentally isn't enough.
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:57.760
Like I'm not okay as I am, and and that shame, like I said, you know, emotion, energy, in motion, but when it's not in motion, it's trapped in the body, in the tissues or in the mus muscular fascia.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:02.719
And it's because yeah, I never allowed myself to to fully feel that.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:14.800
Um that that then manifests as as tightness in the jaw or in the chest, shallow breathing or tight hips, right?
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:22.719
That's that's why like the somatic work is really important to to access that that shame and to feel it fully.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:33.280
Now, if if it's remains suppressed, um, like I said, you know, this is the shadow, it's everything that we decided wasn't acceptable.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:51.280
Um, so it's not acceptable to be to be soft or to be playful um or to be vulnerable, then um, and and you know, it could could could be anger, neediness, jealousy, fear, ambition, sexuality, it could be all kinds of these things.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:36:00.079
But but suppressed doesn't necessarily mean it's gone, as we've said and as we've explored, and I hope is pretty self-explanatory by now for everyone.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.039
It it goes underground and it comes out sideways.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:19.039
So that shame shows up as like you know, really disproportionate reactions, emotional shutdown, trying to control the partner, jealousy, the push-pull dynamics, you know, it's just like it's and it's so frustrating.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.159
I get it.
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:33.679
And and the the partners that we attract often trigger the shadow because intimacy is where our defenses are at our lowest.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:39.840
Um and and so relationships are a gift in so many ways.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.559
I believe it's also a a great gift because it's the best place to do shadow work.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:52.639
Um your partner yeah triggers these these wounds in you so that you can heal them and and and work with them.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:37:16.559
Um now, if we don't, then yeah, of course, it it those those behaviors continue to perpetuate, not only in relationships, but also in your career, like like we've said, overfunctioning, overworking, chasing the rewards, um, people pleasing at work, sacrificing needs just to get that sense of external validation and recognition.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:22.960
And then you get it, and it's like a hit of a drug for a few seconds or a minute or a day.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:33.840
But then because that root cause, that shame that's living somewhere in your body hasn't been healed and addressed, then the cycle continues to repeat itself.
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:44.239
And sadly, people go their whole lives running like this, not realizing that it's not actually who they are, it's just something that they picked up early on in life.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:47.119
And it's it's this mask, like like me.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:48.400
I mean, there's no judgment here.
00:37:48.400 --> 00:38:00.639
Like I said, for practically you know, three decades almost, I was you know, the the achiever and the people pleaser, um, and the perfectionist and the overgiver.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.559
Um, and it served me until until it didn't.
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:22.400
And you know, I attracted all kinds of relationships and circumstances and situations that helped bring um you know, bring these wounds to the surface and help me work with them and and realize that, oh man, like I'm I'm actually I'm actually pretty cool.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:28.480
Like I'm you know, I I don't need anything else out there to to tell me that.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:34.320
And and usually it takes a breakdown or a breakthrough um to get there.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.320
But but you know, it's it's been a gift.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:54.960
It's been a gift, and and that's what this work allows, you know, to to kind of consciously move through it as opposed to ending up um, you know, like how I did, getting pulled over with drugs in my system and going to court or having really heavy relationship breakdowns and all of this stuff.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:08.639
I mean, stuff will happen, um, but you know, I think the importance of this work is you can kind of you get to heal on on your terms in in a way.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:15.840
Do you did you find that in your own relationships you had like avoidant tendencies?
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:18.880
Both.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:21.760
Yeah, I I've had I've had both sides.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:34.400
So yeah, in in earlier relationships, I yeah, I was afraid of like getting really, really close and being vulnerable and then would slink away.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:50.880
Um, and that was around the same time when I started uh engaging in in substances and being the party boy, and that was my way of avoiding intimacy and distracting myself and numbing myself.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:40:08.320
And then I've been on the other side as well, where I yeah, just gave all of myself and more and and put um you know my partner on a pedestal and and made her the centerpiece of the relationship and abandoned my needs in the process.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:31.920
And then I I didn't feel chosen, um, which reinforced the belief that I'm not good enough and encouraged me to look at that and uh work on it and get to a place where uh I feel more secure in my self-worth.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:40.320
And you know, now I'm yeah, grateful to to have attracted someone who who sees me and and who meets me at my um level.
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:56.800
And so that's uh that's I hope that that can serve as a testimony to to the power of this work, uh, because yeah, your your partners will always reflect back to you what what you believe about yourself.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:12.719
So uh sure you change those fundamental beliefs about how worthy or unworthy you are, um, you know, then you'll continue to repeat those same cycles and the same partners in different costumes.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:46.719
It almost seems that sometimes the healthiest relationships you get in are the most painful in some ways because of inner turmoil that comes up and that and all of those demons almost that show up and you have to face and then realize that you haven't or you thought you did, and maybe they come back, and things that you you learn to cope with them once the coping skills maybe don't work the same in this this current relationship.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.480
100%.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:42:01.840
Yeah, and yeah, I mean if if you've run the same coping skills over and over again it keeps on happening, then right you have to ask yourself, Well, I are you are you healing or are you just coping?
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:14.559
Because most most of us are just coping, and you know, we're we're still ending up in the same relationships, same nervous system, but different, different partner.
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:21.039
Um, and we're trying to to cope with it, and it's not really working.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:27.679
So yeah, that's um I'm I'm glad that you use that word because this is a really important distinction between the two.
00:42:28.400 --> 00:43:03.360
Yeah, and you mentioned ner your nervous system a lot, and I feel like this is like something newer to me in just understanding my nervous system, and I'm a nurse, but I you know, I understand it from a biological standpoint, but just you know, being someone who can high high function in a high stress environment, handle stress really well, but almost I almost don't even recognize sometimes my own nervous systems shutting down or or how I'm reacting to things.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:16.079
How do you help people kind of tap into that or reset their nervous system, even if they're not quite aware of what's going on or how to how to manage it?
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:24.079
Yeah, no, I'm I'm glad that you asked that because the nervous system, it's just like the buzzword, right?
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:27.280
It's used so liberally in this space.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:32.320
So I always want to try and ground it as you know in practical terms.
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.320
It is an electrical system, right, that operates in us.
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.079
And I think it's the most intelligent piece of machinery that we have.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:44:03.039
Um and pretty much dictates how much how much energy and and and presence uh and uh capacity for for softness and intimacy we have if we're talking about relationships or um or you know stamina and And energy and and and focus if we're working.
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:16.559
So if someone's feeling activated, for instance, like the nervous system is in fight or flight or they're shutting down, firstly, you can't access your prefrontal cortex.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:24.079
So that means you can't access empathy, nuance, problem solving, real active listening.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:31.360
So obviously that's not going to help in any situation, whether it's a relationship context or a work context.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:35.519
It's pretty vital to have access to prefrontal cortex.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:45:04.400
Um and the like I said before, so there's a lot of stuff out there around um uh like meditation and therapy and communication skills and and regulation and and stuff like that, and doing box breathing and and all of that's helpful for regulating, so coming back to a state of calm and peace and entering the parasympathetic um uh yeah activation of the nervous system.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:31.119
However, if if we're holding on to suppressed emotion like shame, if our nervous system still thinks that we're under threat because of uh an experience that we had when we were younger, I mean you can you can talk about it, you can um meditate, but it's not gonna actually address this suppressed emotion that's living in in your nervous system.
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:53.920
So my work really focuses on it's like a a deeper form of of healing where you do um like clear the emotional charge from the nervous system first because that that like all of your nervous system's resources are going towards keeping this emotion held and stored.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.679
And and you know, you it it like your system feels like it's under threat, it's under attack.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:08.000
I need to pull all my resources to hold on to this emotion because I'm afraid of what might happen if I actually let it go.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:17.039
You know, I'm afraid that if I allow myself to to be soft and playful like I was when I was younger, I would get beaten, right?
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:23.119
Or if I cried, I would get uh you know, screamed at and and shouted at and told off.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.159
So I have to hold on to this emotion, right?
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:48.960
So so nervous system work uh and the way I work with clients as well is around firstly liberating um or or discharging that pressed emotion and then introducing different practices like breath work, like meditation, grounding, all of that stuff to help you come back to center.
00:46:48.960 --> 00:47:06.639
Um, because then it's actually going to stick and you have a more flexible nervous system, like an elastic band that can, you know, that can fire up and then also can come back to to a state of calm, as opposed to always being in that fight or flight state because of a suppressed emotion.
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:21.679
And so that's really powerful because you know, men in my work who learn to regulate can then pause before unconsciously reacting, shutting down, you know, screaming at their partner.
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:25.840
They can stay present and calm under pressure.
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:37.119
They can hear their partner if their partner's bringing something to the table that um is challenging them and they won't go defensive or shrink down.
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:48.559
And so it's really, really powerful because it's the difference between responding from your values and your true self as opposed to just consciously reacting from your trauma and your wounds.
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:50.639
And that's, I mean, I think that's everything.
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.199
I think it's the most important work you could ever do.
00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:15.280
Yeah, because if you just react immediately and you don't even know why you're reacting that way, and then you carry on with your day, and then it you maybe you suppress that argument, and then another argument comes out, and you still don't know why you're communicating poorly and having you're missing each other and things like that, and it's just gonna implode the relationship or whatever dynamic you have.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.679
But yeah, how do you incorporate kind of self-talk into that?
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:30.480
Because you know, you see a lot how the way you talk to yourself is really so important in training your brain and like almost creating these new neural pathways.
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:40.480
Because you know, what if you have these thoughts about yourself, like, oh, I'm immediately gonna be um punished for being vulnerable or crying, like I better not do that.
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:44.480
You kind of have to retrain your brain, and I think self-talk has a lot to do with that.
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.880
So, how do you kind of incorporate that?
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:53.119
Uh personally, or with like in my look, yeah.
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.760
Yeah, um, look, I mean, I I I think self-talk is so important.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:12.239
Um, you know, I've worked with affirmations and mantras, and you you know, the most important relationship that you'll ever build is the one with yourself, uh, because that'll then influence how you relate to everyone around you.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.280
So 100% like self-talk is super important.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:38.800
However, like I said, the like you can you can affirm to yourself that I am safe and loving and a supportive partner and a um confident, calm, controlled leader until the cows come home.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:52.159
But if your body is still under threat, if your nervous system thinks that you're in danger, if you're still holding on to suppressed shame or anger, like talking isn't gonna really do much.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:53.840
It's not gonna do much at all.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:02.159
Um, it might even actually make things worse because you are saying something that your body knows is is a is a lie.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:14.159
And so I think like there is there is a process, um, like like I touched on briefly, the somatic work first because these patterns live in the body, not the mind.
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:24.960
Then, you know, using different tools like EFT tapping, parts work, shadow work, um, to lower the emotional charge around specific beliefs.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:51:14.719
And then once the nervous system is kind of freed up from this baggage, then you can get into more of the cognitive work around identity and self-talk and building a specific self-image or identity around someone who is loving and kind and supportive and um you know is is soft and playful, and you know, I'm I I I have capacity for for closeness and intimacy and all of these beautiful things because the body is more likely to accept that as true once it knows it's no longer in danger, once it it feels at a somatic level that being vulnerable is actually safe, that being fully skin, warts, and all is is actually is actually safe.
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:20.559
So so yeah, to answer your question, self-talk is important, but the order matters.
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:28.480
So safety first, then insight, and then self-talk to to help with the behavioral change.
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:28.800
Yeah.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.159
Because a lot of approaches tend to skip that that first step.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:37.920
I find that interesting you mentioned you know, talking almost can be detrimental to it.
00:51:37.920 --> 00:52:02.559
And I think about how sometimes talk therapy can be kind of it's like using talk therapy can be an amazing tool for people, but in some cases it's it's it almost overly reinforces the issues in your head and doesn't actually help anything.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:36.719
It almost creates more overthinking and more problems, and you're maybe misdiagnosing things or misdiagnosing yourself, and you're you know, I mean, if you're in a relationship and you're avoidant and you could be like put putting blame on the on the person that you're with instead of taking a look at yourself and you use talk there to be like, these are all the problem, the reasons that this person's wrong, or or whatever whatever it is, and then you're really not getting to the root of the issue because you're scared to even go there because of how your body reacts to it.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:39.360
Oh, spot on, yeah.
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:52.320
And yeah, because it's just frustrating because maybe and look, maybe you get like a sense of like brief relief talking about it and venting, of course, like there's value in that.
00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:02.079
Um, but yeah, I mean you come back, uh you know, it's the same nervous system that that walks back into that relationship out of the therapist's office.
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:08.239
Um, you know, if it's just like cognitive stuff, uh and and you know, the pattern repeats itself.
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:13.119
So so yeah, it it plays a part, it it serves a purpose.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.599
Um it's not the only tool I think that we have to use.
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.119
I think it's it's yes and and and going deeper.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.039
Um but like that was my journey, right?
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:40.880
Like, I don't think I I had I don't think I had the like confidence or courage to or even the the knowledge to dive deeper into like somatic work and and healing straight away.
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.519
I don't think I yeah, I don't think I ever knew what it was.
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:48.480
All I knew about was was therapy and talking about things.
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:52.639
Um and so yeah, like I think it's just a maturity thing.
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:54.559
It's around and a readiness thing.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:54:07.679
Like once once your nervous system actually feels safe enough to feel, um, then that's usually a you know an indicator that you're ready to to go into this work.
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.760
And and you'll feel called to it.
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:23.599
I mean, if someone's listening to this podcast and is like, oh, I I think I think I really uh would benefit from doing this kind of work, that's your nervous system telling you unconsciously that that you're ready to feel your emotions fully.
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:30.159
Um, those that don't may still want to explore therapy and and get value from it in that way.
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:31.280
And that's okay, right?
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.400
It's not everyone's on their own journey.
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:45.599
Yeah, I always think sometimes it's like you can psychoanalyze yourself to death, but there has to be some other ways of reaching, you know, resetting your brain.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:52.000
And there's so many different therapies out there and techniques that you can kind of hamburger them together.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.960
But I think you know, it brings me to your Instagram posts and the the work you're doing.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:10.000
I think that putting that information out there is so important for men, especially, because there are a lot of men who are feeling these ways and don't know even what that means.
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:26.320
So seeing a post where you're explaining something of like an avoidant behavior or a high-achieving man, you know, not feeling valued or only feeling valued for being a provider and a protector and and feeling like he has to keep that up.
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:47.920
That information, just being out there for a man uh someone to see even when they are doom scrolling, is so important because it kind of they can have that light bulb moment where they're like, that's me, and I have been struggling, and someone gets it, which is kind of the best moment to have.
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:50.639
Oh, for sure.
00:55:50.639 --> 00:56:00.960
And look, uh, I mean, if if I I can help one guy see themselves in that, or want one woman as well, um, see themselves in that, then then I I'm I'm doing my job.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.400
Um because that's how it starts, right?
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:11.599
I mean, that's like most of like TV ratings are going down, people are sticking to social media.
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:17.039
Um, that's just the way to connect um these days and to to to cut through.
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:32.320
So I think um, yeah, even that brief glimpse of like, oh man, this this person really gets me, um, yeah, can can start or can be the first step in someone's decision to you know look at their patterns uh and and heal.
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:38.639
So um, yeah, and we wouldn't be having this conversation this conversation without it.
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:40.000
So I'm really grateful.
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:51.840
Yeah, I mean it it's I think a lot more men from all over the world are struggling with exactly these issues way more than people even talk about.
00:56:51.840 --> 00:57:08.559
And I think women are really open about talking about their feelings and their emotions and getting on Instagram and talking about their feelings and their emotions, but it's definitely a different thing for men, and just being hyper-masculine is is really pushed out into the universe.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:16.559
You have to be like the most manly man and eat, you know, tallow cooked steak and all that, which is great for you.
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:26.320
But you know, it's just it's kind of perpetuating this narrative that you have to be like the biggest manly man ever in order to be accepted.
00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:28.960
So I think the work you're doing is so important.
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:31.760
And thank you so much for coming on and talking to me.
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:45.039
I will obviously link all of your socials and hopefully we get some people to sign up for your program and and hire you because you're healing men, and that's important.
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:47.840
Just one more question for you, basically.
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:56.800
What is if you could give advice to one man listening right now, what would that piece of advice be?
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:05.599
Your softness is your strength.
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:08.079
That's excellent advice.
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:08.719
I love that.
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:10.960
All right, David, thank you so much for coming on.
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:13.119
Yeah, no, thank you again, Stephanie.
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:17.039
It's really, really cool to create this little offering with you.
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:23.599
And um, yeah, I really love your work and appreciate you for raising awareness about around mental health.
00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:25.440
Join our community.
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:32.639
Subscribe now to Headcase because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.
