Building in Healthtech: Product Strategies for Innovators

1
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,700
Welcome to Hard Problems Smart,
Solutions, The Newfire Podcast where we

2
00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:15,180
explore the toughest challenges and the
smartest solutions with industry leaders.

3
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,440
I'm Brendan Iglehart, Staff Healthcare
Architect at Newfire Global Partners

4
00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:21,260
and your host for this episode.

5
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,890
In each episode, we bring you
conversations with top innovators

6
00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:28,100
and decision makers tackling the
biggest issues across industries.

7
00:00:28,910 --> 00:00:31,910
Whether you're looking for insights to
drive your own strategies, or learn from

8
00:00:31,910 --> 00:00:33,650
the best, you're in the right place.

9
00:00:33,740 --> 00:00:34,520
Let's get started.

10
00:00:38,150 --> 00:00:38,810
Hi everyone.

11
00:00:38,865 --> 00:00:41,360
Welcome to another episode
of Hard Problems, Smart

12
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,040
Solutions, The Newfire Podcast.

13
00:00:43,815 --> 00:00:46,995
In today's episode, I'm thrilled to
speak with Omar Mousa, who most recently

14
00:00:46,995 --> 00:00:51,345
served as VP of Product and Engineering
at Ventricle Health, and then recently

15
00:00:51,345 --> 00:00:55,335
left to start a fractional CPO services
firm and continue to do startup advisory.

16
00:00:55,995 --> 00:00:58,965
He's a seasoned technologist with
extensive experience in product

17
00:00:58,965 --> 00:01:02,145
management, go-to-market strategies
and operations, particularly

18
00:01:02,175 --> 00:01:03,285
in the healthcare sector.

19
00:01:04,095 --> 00:01:07,785
He has successfully scaled technology
teams and platforms, notably launching

20
00:01:07,785 --> 00:01:12,464
a zero to one heart failure care
platform at Ventricle Health which

21
00:01:12,464 --> 00:01:15,225
significantly drove growth and
improved patient care efficiencies.

22
00:01:15,735 --> 00:01:20,265
He also co-hosts a popular and
excellent health tech podcast Concept

23
00:01:20,265 --> 00:01:24,405
to Care, and actively advises startups
on product and market strategies.

24
00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:27,240
Omar, thanks for joining
us today on the podcast.

25
00:01:28,110 --> 00:01:28,890
Thank you Brendan.

26
00:01:28,890 --> 00:01:29,610
Glad to be here.

27
00:01:29,610 --> 00:01:31,240
And man, excellent.

28
00:01:31,570 --> 00:01:31,850
That..

29
00:01:32,790 --> 00:01:33,930
Impressive intro.

30
00:01:34,050 --> 00:01:35,730
It's cool to be on the other side.

31
00:01:36,150 --> 00:01:36,539
Yeah.

32
00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:41,910
Alright, so to kick things off, I wanna
ask you about your journey in your career

33
00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:46,920
'cause you've moved from working between
D2C initiatives, Propeller Health to

34
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:52,080
focusing RCM at Adonis and then, uh, most
recently doing VBC delivery at Ventricle.

35
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,560
So, tell me about what motivated
these transitions and how did each

36
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,200
role enrich your understanding
of healthcare technology?

37
00:01:58,950 --> 00:01:59,340
Yeah.

38
00:01:59,910 --> 00:02:04,710
Uh, Propeller Health was a late stage,
already acquired health tech company.

39
00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:06,210
They were acquired by ResMed.

40
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,110
I was coming out of consulting, so I
broke into product management through

41
00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:15,630
consulting, was doing serving government
clients, like agencies on their not

42
00:02:15,630 --> 00:02:20,130
so interesting custom software, and I
wasn't developing the scar tissue that

43
00:02:20,865 --> 00:02:23,625
one would develop when
living with a problem.

44
00:02:23,625 --> 00:02:26,115
And so I wanted to break into product.

45
00:02:26,115 --> 00:02:31,245
I thought that'd be a great place to live
with a problem or solve hard problems

46
00:02:31,245 --> 00:02:32,565
in that role made the most sense.

47
00:02:32,625 --> 00:02:36,915
And then the other thing was I
had gotten a healthcare sort of

48
00:02:36,915 --> 00:02:38,415
flavor of a technical degree.

49
00:02:38,505 --> 00:02:39,315
I was like, healthcare IT.

50
00:02:40,005 --> 00:02:43,425
And so I knew I wanted to spend
my startup career in healthcare,

51
00:02:43,425 --> 00:02:44,655
and so I found Propeller.

52
00:02:44,655 --> 00:02:47,385
I grew up with asthma as a young age.

53
00:02:47,385 --> 00:02:51,735
I kind of grew out of it, but Propeller
Health was solving for asthma and then

54
00:02:51,735 --> 00:02:56,895
trying to break into the COPD space, I
joined as a product manager to help them

55
00:02:56,895 --> 00:03:01,815
figure out like what does the application
experience for the patient need to

56
00:03:01,815 --> 00:03:04,665
be like for, for the COPD population?

57
00:03:04,665 --> 00:03:05,835
And so the takeaways.

58
00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:08,730
We're like researching.

59
00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:11,220
I spent a lot of time
researching the disease set.

60
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:11,579
Right.

61
00:03:11,579 --> 00:03:16,260
So understanding COPD I might have
read over 50 research papers and

62
00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:23,040
truly became an expert on the disease
and honestly learned a lot about not

63
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,400
only the clinical aspects, but the
nonclinical aspects of having disease.

64
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,640
And I think that was the thing that
resonated most when building the product

65
00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:36,390
was the end user is receiving all sorts
of care, and it doesn't necessarily

66
00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:42,255
like, the, the main problems they face
in their life are things like loneliness

67
00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:47,355
or being tethered to their device, or
not being able to go to the grocery store

68
00:03:47,355 --> 00:03:49,695
or see their granddaughter get married.

69
00:03:49,695 --> 00:03:53,505
And so that was a major revelation for me.

70
00:03:53,505 --> 00:03:59,010
'cause it was like, okay, I. The care
industry or healthcare does an okay job of

71
00:03:59,010 --> 00:04:02,940
like the clinical piece, but the, but it's
good that these digital therapeutics are

72
00:04:02,940 --> 00:04:07,950
out here solving for things like adherence
to medication, but also like how do I

73
00:04:07,950 --> 00:04:12,390
build a really robust app experience for
patients so that they can do those things?

74
00:04:12,894 --> 00:04:16,959
I think, transitioning to Cerebral,
I, I went to Cerebral after that, I

75
00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,110
kind of saw the writing on the wall
with the direct to consumer services.

76
00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:23,650
It was like as the pandemic went
blowing into full swing, um, so a

77
00:04:23,650 --> 00:04:25,760
mental healthcare company made sense.

78
00:04:26,140 --> 00:04:27,580
Hims & Hers was coming up.

79
00:04:27,789 --> 00:04:28,810
RO was coming up.

80
00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:32,980
I had even in 2019 written an
article about, Hey, consumers want to

81
00:04:33,415 --> 00:04:37,885
take ownership of their own healthcare,
and so was just super eager to

82
00:04:37,885 --> 00:04:39,745
get involved into a D2C business.

83
00:04:40,045 --> 00:04:43,350
Found Cerebral pretty early as they
were, you know, in the series A,

84
00:04:43,350 --> 00:04:47,115
closing their B. Um, they had two
product managers, but they weren't a

85
00:04:47,115 --> 00:04:51,405
folks who were just really scrappy and
solving for the product manager role.

86
00:04:51,405 --> 00:04:55,525
And so I joined, um, as like the first
formal product manager hire, um, and

87
00:04:55,525 --> 00:04:58,935
after that and then they blew out the
team a lot 'cause they just raised a ton

88
00:04:58,935 --> 00:05:00,555
of money and the team grew super fast.

89
00:05:00,555 --> 00:05:04,215
But I learned how to work at
a super hyper growth company.

90
00:05:04,215 --> 00:05:06,585
That company hit a $5 billion
valuation in two years.

91
00:05:06,585 --> 00:05:07,245
It felt like

92
00:05:07,665 --> 00:05:10,785
Uber, it felt like my shoes were
growing or I was growing outta

93
00:05:10,785 --> 00:05:12,525
my shoes every couple months.

94
00:05:13,215 --> 00:05:17,055
Experimentation is was super key
in business performance, right?

95
00:05:17,055 --> 00:05:18,825
So different than Propeller.

96
00:05:18,825 --> 00:05:23,265
Propeller was selling to pharma,
selling to uh, benefit pharmacy

97
00:05:23,265 --> 00:05:25,875
benefit managers, even health systems.

98
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,840
Because Cerebral was a direct to consumer
business, like funnel performance

99
00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:35,040
experimentation, AB testing, like a lot
of the traditional product management

100
00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:37,500
skillset was very applicable here.

101
00:05:37,740 --> 00:05:39,600
And I, it was just really fun.

102
00:05:39,719 --> 00:05:43,734
And then also just learning about
the like, required capabilities

103
00:05:43,734 --> 00:05:45,325
to play in a telehealth space.

104
00:05:45,445 --> 00:05:48,115
You, you go to one telehealth business,
you go to another, you, you notice a

105
00:05:48,115 --> 00:05:49,315
lot of the components are the same.

106
00:05:49,734 --> 00:05:54,715
And then lastly, like how to organize
like teams and projects, et cetera, and

107
00:05:54,715 --> 00:05:56,455
that, that sort of thing around outcomes.

108
00:05:56,455 --> 00:05:59,094
And that was like really important
for my senior leadership growth.

109
00:05:59,094 --> 00:06:01,914
I grew into a senior product leader there.

110
00:06:02,010 --> 00:06:05,005
By the time I left, I had a
couple teams reporting into

111
00:06:05,005 --> 00:06:07,224
my portfolio, which was cool.

112
00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:12,599
Early, I built insurance at
Cerebral and so, uh, from zero

113
00:06:12,599 --> 00:06:14,400
to one their insurance product.

114
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,700
And I knew a lot and I was talking to the
Adonis founders before they had started

115
00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:23,640
the business and, uh, you know, really
jazzed about the, how broken our CM was.

116
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,810
And so I joined Adonis as employee
six, another zero to one situation.

117
00:06:28,229 --> 00:06:32,400
Major takeaways from that business was
like I didn't join in a product capacity.

118
00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,920
I joined as head of growth and I learned
go-to-market through just like doing and

119
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,540
just being scrappy and figuring it out.

120
00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:44,280
So like how, what to helping
them determine what to build that

121
00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:47,910
resonated with their vision, how to
message the product, how to sell it.

122
00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:53,550
Built a CRM like workflow and go to
market motion around their products.

123
00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:58,080
And then really like getting in front
of customers, just doing all sorts of

124
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,330
scrappy things, like going to conferences,
um, flying out to their, their office

125
00:07:03,330 --> 00:07:07,020
and saying, we were in the neighborhood
and, uh, just doing all sorts of things

126
00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:11,520
to drive demand generation and, and you
know, so I spent like a year with that

127
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,220
business and they matured to a point where

128
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:15,870
um, they have a real sales team.

129
00:07:15,870 --> 00:07:18,420
They don't need, you know,
Omar trying to figure it out.

130
00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:21,720
They had real salespeople, they had
real go-to-market motions, they had

131
00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:25,650
product, and so I kind of, it kind
of made sense as like, Hey guys, like

132
00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:30,390
I think you guys have grown and I
would like to go do product again.

133
00:07:30,540 --> 00:07:32,910
Again, another like writing
on the wall situation.

134
00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:36,720
We know a lot of care is moving towards
value and so I wanted to participate

135
00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,780
in a value-based care business and
so about 19 months ago I joined

136
00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:44,530
Ventricle Health as their head of
product, helped build out the team and

137
00:07:44,550 --> 00:07:47,700
learned how to innovate on a payment
model or alternative payment model.

138
00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:50,280
I never really touched
alternative payment models before.

139
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,450
It was always like direct cash
subscription based or fee for service.

140
00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:00,900
And then, uh, really like care management,
care program, like selling a service

141
00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,195
was like a very different thing.

142
00:08:03,195 --> 00:08:06,585
And then the RPM, like how to
integrate RPM into a platform.

143
00:08:07,005 --> 00:08:10,065
And then I've touched a lot of, you
know, in your world, you know a lot

144
00:08:10,065 --> 00:08:12,045
about the interoperability on RAMP APIs.

145
00:08:12,045 --> 00:08:16,695
Like I got to touch a lot of those
APIs to populate data at various

146
00:08:16,695 --> 00:08:20,385
points of care and build out like
really robust enrollment workflows.

147
00:08:20,385 --> 00:08:25,380
So I, I think, long-winded answer to
this I have had a bunch of different

148
00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:29,850
little career changes and all within
the health tech healthcare space,

149
00:08:29,850 --> 00:08:34,500
and I, I think it's formed a really
decent worldview of how care looks

150
00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:36,780
like in in the startup environment.

151
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:37,870
Yeah.

152
00:08:37,870 --> 00:08:38,710
That's really interesting.

153
00:08:38,710 --> 00:08:40,540
Appreciate you sharing
that journey with us.

154
00:08:40,540 --> 00:08:44,710
So I guess throughout that journey, I'm
always curious to hear from people what's

155
00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:48,460
been the biggest surprise that you've
encountered and was there kind of a moment

156
00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:51,940
or, or an obstacle or something you faced
that really shifted your perspective

157
00:08:51,970 --> 00:08:53,620
on how tech fits into healthcare?

158
00:08:54,810 --> 00:08:57,390
Yeah, I think three things.

159
00:08:57,959 --> 00:09:00,180
Technology and healthcare
is like pretty bad.

160
00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:06,209
So the infrastructure in place is like
behind, um, systems are disparate.

161
00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:11,040
It's not like other industry verticals
like FinTech had their time in the sun.

162
00:09:11,310 --> 00:09:15,360
You know, there are other, you
know, retail, they're just really

163
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,729
cool technology servicing other
industry verticals and because

164
00:09:21,704 --> 00:09:24,194
healthcare hasn't received
that love quite yet.

165
00:09:24,194 --> 00:09:27,795
It's starting to, but it, you know,
it's still has to pass a lot of hurdles.

166
00:09:28,395 --> 00:09:33,615
The second thing is that most of
healthcare is supported by IT teams,

167
00:09:34,155 --> 00:09:36,195
not by product development teams.

168
00:09:36,225 --> 00:09:38,445
So the mentality is really different.

169
00:09:38,595 --> 00:09:42,255
I've been at organizations where I've
been called like the IT team, and

170
00:09:42,255 --> 00:09:45,825
it's like we are product managers and
engineers and product designers, and

171
00:09:46,224 --> 00:09:47,125
we think differently.

172
00:09:47,125 --> 00:09:51,655
Like, IT teams that manage a queue
of technology implementations and

173
00:09:51,714 --> 00:09:54,775
aren't necessarily so entrenched
in what the user needs are.

174
00:09:54,775 --> 00:09:58,704
But product teams generally are like,
Hey, I'm, I'm building for an end user.

175
00:09:58,704 --> 00:09:59,724
I'm building for a problem.

176
00:09:59,724 --> 00:10:01,974
I I'm KPId even differently.

177
00:10:02,035 --> 00:10:02,334
Right?

178
00:10:02,875 --> 00:10:06,625
There's still that tight or like
there's that balance to strike.

179
00:10:06,625 --> 00:10:08,245
I, I think healthcare has not.

180
00:10:09,015 --> 00:10:11,324
I think sometimes it makes sense
to have a healthcare like a IT

181
00:10:11,444 --> 00:10:13,935
team, and sometimes it makes sense
to have product development teams.

182
00:10:14,775 --> 00:10:18,795
And then the third and last thing,
it's like, you know, the mantra of

183
00:10:18,795 --> 00:10:22,785
moving fast and breaking things,
or the lean startup like that.

184
00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:26,969
Makes sense in some businesses, but
in healthcare it does not apply.

185
00:10:27,089 --> 00:10:29,610
There is a lot of risk
associated with that.

186
00:10:29,615 --> 00:10:29,880
The, the thing

187
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,719
you're breaking is often you and
me, so that's a little scary.

188
00:10:34,079 --> 00:10:34,980
Yes, yes.

189
00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:36,120
It's people's lives.

190
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,030
People's lives are at stake,
people's licenses, right?

191
00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:41,969
Like the individuals who
are practicing care, there's

192
00:10:41,969 --> 00:10:43,530
insurance against them, right?

193
00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:47,310
Like they are taking oaths
to provide high quality care.

194
00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:52,050
And so it, it's really, you know, like a
frame perfect thing that needs to happen.

195
00:10:52,050 --> 00:10:52,260
And.

196
00:10:52,455 --> 00:10:57,225
Yeah, not a lot of room for error and
so the "move fast break things" mantra

197
00:10:57,225 --> 00:11:02,475
like grandiose and great sounding
like does not really make sense here.

198
00:11:04,005 --> 00:11:05,835
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

199
00:11:06,465 --> 00:11:10,515
So you've noted in some of your kind
of past discussions are writing around

200
00:11:10,515 --> 00:11:14,415
how health tech infrastructure isn't
really equipped to handle the volume

201
00:11:14,415 --> 00:11:17,595
of, of data or unstructured data
specifically that's being generated.

202
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,689
In my world, interoperability, that
obviously presents a big challenge.

203
00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:24,569
Can you elaborate on that issue
and, and talk about how you see

204
00:11:24,569 --> 00:11:26,375
that problem coming to light here?

205
00:11:27,135 --> 00:11:27,645
Yeah,

206
00:11:27,675 --> 00:11:30,855
that issue's pretty exacerbated
by like a lot of things.

207
00:11:31,035 --> 00:11:35,745
I'll try to describe a few, but I,
I think like healthcare, as I said,

208
00:11:35,745 --> 00:11:37,905
is it's been around forever, right?

209
00:11:38,025 --> 00:11:38,265
Yeah.

210
00:11:39,165 --> 00:11:42,495
Back to the days when we were
bleeding people out to cure them

211
00:11:42,495 --> 00:11:46,815
of diseases, and it's evolved
and know technology has supported

212
00:11:46,815 --> 00:11:49,005
various businesses or industries.

213
00:11:49,065 --> 00:11:50,625
FinTech, like I said, has had the love.

214
00:11:50,985 --> 00:11:56,985
Healthcare has a lot of legacy system
architecture, so most healthcare IT

215
00:11:57,135 --> 00:12:04,455
systems were built on like very basic
relational databases or models optimized

216
00:12:04,455 --> 00:12:06,375
for structure like tabular data.

217
00:12:06,645 --> 00:12:12,195
We have things like diagnosis codes,
billing codes like most IT or healthcare

218
00:12:12,195 --> 00:12:17,655
IT systems were built for the purpose of
billing, and that was like the whole 2009

219
00:12:17,745 --> 00:12:21,375
American Reinvestment Act investment, like
everyone was building an EHR, but really

220
00:12:21,375 --> 00:12:23,834
they were building a billing tool, right?

221
00:12:24,795 --> 00:12:26,985
Medication lists, lab values, like.

222
00:12:27,795 --> 00:12:31,545
But we all know that like when you
go to a doctor, you are interacting

223
00:12:31,545 --> 00:12:34,545
with a physician who's like typing
the conversation that's happening.

224
00:12:34,545 --> 00:12:35,925
Hey, I checked this, I did this.

225
00:12:35,925 --> 00:12:37,125
I talked to the patient about this.

226
00:12:37,125 --> 00:12:37,905
This was the response.

227
00:12:37,905 --> 00:12:42,944
So there's a lot of free text
notes, images, unstructured data

228
00:12:43,125 --> 00:12:45,705
that doesn't necessarily fit
within that system architecture.

229
00:12:45,975 --> 00:12:48,405
And that's just like where all
the goodness is, where all the

230
00:12:48,405 --> 00:12:50,235
good stuff and the the value is.

231
00:12:50,925 --> 00:12:54,000
The other thing is a disparate system.

232
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,480
So there's just multiple systems
in the value chain, right?

233
00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:01,920
There's front office, there's the
actual clinical notes or the EHR.

234
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,310
There's practice management
systems, there's platforms

235
00:13:05,310 --> 00:13:06,960
that are doing, hey texting.

236
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,070
There's the lab system.

237
00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:11,640
Like all of this stuff has very
valuable data that should be talking

238
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,890
and it doesn't, and it's siloed, right?

239
00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:17,400
And so the data, we're just unable
to make sense of the full picture.

240
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,270
Like I can tell you where the
patient had an appointment.

241
00:13:21,330 --> 00:13:21,510
I don't.

242
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:22,870
It was six.

243
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:23,980
There's a six month gap.

244
00:13:23,980 --> 00:13:25,780
I can't tell you what's
happened in between that.

245
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:26,140
Right.

246
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:29,469
Data standards are getting better,
but they're still inconsistent

247
00:13:29,469 --> 00:13:30,310
and they're old, right?

248
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:35,170
Like if you think about X 12, which is
used for claims, it's like that's XML.

249
00:13:35,170 --> 00:13:40,150
I don't know how many systems you want
to touch these days that have XML.

250
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:44,130
I know finance has like some, some
like archaic data standards too, but

251
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:49,140
do a good job of like leveling it
up and kind of modernizing it a bit.

252
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,430
Um, we don't.

253
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,450
Healthcare struggles, I think, and,
and again, with that unstructured data

254
00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,930
that's like living in clinical notes and
it just doesn't fit really well and we

255
00:14:00,930 --> 00:14:02,880
can't do a lot of processing with that.

256
00:14:03,450 --> 00:14:08,040
Another thing's like what I call vendor
lock-in, it's like there are proprietary

257
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,710
data formats, um, associated with

258
00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:16,439
various systems, and then some like
EHRs, like closed APIs, or they're

259
00:14:16,439 --> 00:14:18,960
just like not published tools, right?

260
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,189
So it's just like, I don't know how to
work with this unless I am a customer.

261
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:26,970
And then also the tool doesn't
really support a lot, right?

262
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,520
ETL process limitations.

263
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,320
So just legacy ETL tools.

264
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:34,920
If you go like look at like some
of the more modern stuff, like

265
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,180
I like how many ETL tools have
built connectors for Stripe.

266
00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:43,260
Like Stripe is a beautiful
API or a beautiful platform.

267
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,060
There are ETL products for that.

268
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:50,685
But for healthcare, you know, you have
connectors like MuleSoft and things like

269
00:14:50,685 --> 00:14:52,395
that, that are pulling HL7 data out.

270
00:14:52,395 --> 00:14:55,125
But even there, it's just like
lackluster not so perfect.

271
00:14:55,755 --> 00:14:59,084
And then the last thing is just
like there's no APIs, like even

272
00:14:59,084 --> 00:15:00,990
companies, even products with APIs,

273
00:15:00,990 --> 00:15:04,365
the APIs are just, they have
a couple requests, right?

274
00:15:04,365 --> 00:15:08,175
They're not robust enough to really
achieve the thing that you want to do.

275
00:15:08,594 --> 00:15:10,605
Um, API documentation's pretty weak.

276
00:15:10,935 --> 00:15:14,685
Um, and then know, I just, I
engage with EMRs, I'm not gonna say

277
00:15:14,685 --> 00:15:17,805
names of EMRs, but they might have
eight endpoints and the end points

278
00:15:17,805 --> 00:15:19,064
are just like not that valuable.

279
00:15:19,064 --> 00:15:21,525
So they check the box off
of like, yeah, I have APIs.

280
00:15:21,525 --> 00:15:25,425
And it's like, cool, but can I actually
do the thing I wanna do with your APIs?

281
00:15:25,935 --> 00:15:29,925
And that's, you don't really figure that
out until I have a two to three year

282
00:15:29,925 --> 00:15:34,155
software deal and I'm kinda locked in
and my clinicians know how to use it.

283
00:15:34,155 --> 00:15:35,145
And so I just think like,

284
00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:39,480
all these things I've
mentioned really exacerbate.

285
00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:41,850
It's just like a tech debt, right?

286
00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:43,710
It's just, it's, it's
hard to come from that.

287
00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,740
And so we need to really be
innovative and think creatively

288
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:49,650
around how to get around some of
these things and modernize ourselves.

289
00:15:51,690 --> 00:15:54,810
Not to introduce buzzword
bingo too much, but I'm, I'm

290
00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:56,190
curious to get your perspective.

291
00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:58,200
The thing that was coming to mind
as you were talking about that was

292
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,630
AI and how that might help with some
of those problems you mentioned.

293
00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:02,280
Do you have any perspective
that you wanna share on that?

294
00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:09,540
I think unstructured data and like
large language models are really

295
00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:11,370
good at reading text, right?

296
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:16,320
Lots of unstructured data lives
within EMRs, uh, coming from various

297
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,000
notes and labs and et cetera.

298
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,440
And I think, you know, these foundational
models are gonna be better than any of

299
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:28,230
us at reading through an entire patient's
life history of clinical notes and then

300
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:32,280
coming to some sort of assessment like
it also read all the research papers

301
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,050
and understands the literature and
understands like healthcare in general.

302
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:42,660
And so I think like LLMs are
gonna help us save a lot of

303
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:45,180
time in going through this text.

304
00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:47,910
It's gonna help us summarize
all this information.

305
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:50,339
It's gonna help us extract
the things that matter.

306
00:16:50,339 --> 00:16:55,830
It's gonna help us identify like if
A happens and B happens and like,

307
00:16:56,460 --> 00:16:58,350
then C should probably happen, right?

308
00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:01,620
So just like the things like find
correlation within that unstructured

309
00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:07,560
data and it'll help us scale the
clinical workforce, uh, those who

310
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,740
are looking at that information
and making assessment on it, right?

311
00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:13,530
So I think it's gonna empower clinicians.

312
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,360
Um, I also think it's gonna help
us take all that unstructured

313
00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:20,655
data and get value out of it.

314
00:17:20,655 --> 00:17:24,645
'cause there's so much nugget,
like great goodness in there.

315
00:17:24,645 --> 00:17:29,145
And none of us, or I wouldn't say none of
us, but I, you know, we still have barely

316
00:17:29,145 --> 00:17:33,405
breached the surface of like capturing
that value and taking advantage of it.

317
00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:35,685
So I think LLMs are amazing.

318
00:17:36,284 --> 00:17:39,225
I think AI is really gonna make
some big changes in healthcare.

319
00:17:39,225 --> 00:17:42,284
That's why the venture community's
investing so heavily into it.

320
00:17:42,284 --> 00:17:46,169
And, you know, I'm really excited to see
what it's still like, we're still at the

321
00:17:46,169 --> 00:17:49,050
first frontier and I'm really excited
to see what some of these startups do.

322
00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:55,469
So pivoting back to kind of more
looking through things from a product

323
00:17:55,469 --> 00:17:59,189
lens, I'm curious if you could tell
us a little bit about the challenges

324
00:17:59,189 --> 00:18:03,840
that come along with in the know the
circumstances where an end user is not

325
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,790
the one who's making purchasing decisions.

326
00:18:05,790 --> 00:18:07,830
How do you navigate a situation like that?

327
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:09,540
'cause it seems like you've
had some experience there.

328
00:18:11,415 --> 00:18:16,185
Yeah, so healthcare in America is pretty
weird 'cause it's like sometimes you

329
00:18:16,185 --> 00:18:20,985
don't even know why you are required
to use a specific service or your

330
00:18:20,985 --> 00:18:23,475
affiliation with X, Y, Z organization.

331
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,590
Payers have members.

332
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:29,370
We are effectively members if you
belong to an insurance plan and

333
00:18:29,370 --> 00:18:33,780
bucketed into various plans, which
dictate what sort of care you have.

334
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:39,180
And then we go through a kind of
adjudication process to figure out

335
00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:42,450
like what is the cost share between
the patient and the insurance company.

336
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:47,195
And I think that is unusual, like
most services that you participate

337
00:18:47,195 --> 00:18:52,115
in, like I want to get my lawn mowed,
I go out to a lawn mowing company.

338
00:18:52,115 --> 00:18:54,695
I ask how much it's gonna
cost to do X, Y, Z service.

339
00:18:54,695 --> 00:18:58,175
They give me a quote, I say, okay, and
then I pay for the service once complete.

340
00:18:58,175 --> 00:19:01,505
Like this is unusual for any industry.

341
00:19:01,685 --> 00:19:05,345
And then talk about healthcare just
has such a complicated stakeholder

342
00:19:05,345 --> 00:19:07,350
mix like no other business.

343
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:11,980
Or industry has, like, you have the
doctors, you have the nurses, you have the

344
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:16,060
admin staff, the clinical coordinators,
the lab techs, you have the patients

345
00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:20,410
themselves, the caregivers, the payers,
the pharmaceutical companies, the,

346
00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:24,700
the brokers, the like, there's just
so many people involved and have like

347
00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:30,370
interest in the value that's being
generated from a product or service.

348
00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:34,425
And so, that dilutes the
mission or like the focus.

349
00:19:35,595 --> 00:19:39,015
So I think that's how the
end-user is often missed.

350
00:19:39,015 --> 00:19:39,315
Right.

351
00:19:39,315 --> 00:19:42,105
So you just have all these
stakeholders, let's say, let's

352
00:19:42,105 --> 00:19:43,935
talk about a service, right?

353
00:19:43,935 --> 00:19:47,985
Like a, a healthcare service or
a tech-enabled service, you're.

354
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,700
The people within the company
aren't the people using the

355
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:54,790
product, and then you often don't
really have access to the patient.

356
00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:58,390
And then like compliance and HIPAA
rules kind of make it hard to engage

357
00:19:58,390 --> 00:20:00,280
those individuals anyways, right?

358
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,010
So I think that's one factor.

359
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:07,240
The other factor is like
market and funding constraints

360
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,320
are a factor here, right?

361
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,705
So if you're a startup and you just
raise seed funding and we think about

362
00:20:12,705 --> 00:20:16,365
like go-to-market timelines for some
of these companies, they're long,

363
00:20:16,425 --> 00:20:18,615
they're 18 months sometimes, right?

364
00:20:18,615 --> 00:20:22,155
So it's just, I have X amount
of dollars to contribute towards

365
00:20:22,155 --> 00:20:23,865
building a product or a service.

366
00:20:24,225 --> 00:20:25,215
I only have so much time.

367
00:20:25,215 --> 00:20:28,215
I need to do the bare minimum from
the patient side, but I need to get

368
00:20:28,215 --> 00:20:31,905
distribution and I need to lock down
deals with payer or health system so

369
00:20:32,385 --> 00:20:34,335
that you know, it's in that situation

370
00:20:34,335 --> 00:20:35,505
it's like I need to live.

371
00:20:36,345 --> 00:20:38,655
Or survive for the next fundraising round.

372
00:20:38,655 --> 00:20:41,925
And so this is another way, like
the kind of the end-user, the

373
00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:46,215
patient is missed 'cause it's, I
need to do X, Y, Z, C tomorrow.

374
00:20:47,205 --> 00:20:50,145
The other thing is like
decision-maker are not the provider

375
00:20:50,145 --> 00:20:51,795
sometimes or the end-user, right?

376
00:20:51,795 --> 00:20:55,965
So if the end-user is a provider, they're
not making purchasing decisions or

377
00:20:55,965 --> 00:20:59,595
if the end-user is a patient, they're
also not, they don't have any say

378
00:20:59,595 --> 00:21:01,305
over the technology that's being used.

379
00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:04,590
If you're a patient, you get a portal,
sometimes you're like, okay, I had like

380
00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:08,159
nine of these portals at the different
little pri primary care doctors I've seen.

381
00:21:09,074 --> 00:21:12,735
I guess I have to sign up for another
one and remember that password or like

382
00:21:12,885 --> 00:21:15,824
you're a provider and you're like,
this is the lab that you're supposed to

383
00:21:15,824 --> 00:21:19,514
prescribe, or this is the me, this is
the EHR that you're supposed to use, and

384
00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:21,524
you just don't have much say over that.

385
00:21:22,604 --> 00:21:25,574
And so ultimately what I think ends
up happening is like you have this

386
00:21:25,574 --> 00:21:29,685
complicated stakeholder mix you
have to build to survive, right?

387
00:21:29,685 --> 00:21:31,935
You have to build certain things
or certain features or solve

388
00:21:31,935 --> 00:21:34,485
certain things on a go-to-market
perspective or distribution.

389
00:21:35,175 --> 00:21:37,425
And what you end up with, it's like

390
00:21:38,084 --> 00:21:41,655
something that provides some clinical
value, something that provides some

391
00:21:41,655 --> 00:21:45,705
financial value, some operational
value, and then, but ultimately

392
00:21:45,705 --> 00:21:48,824
from an experience perspective,
like no one's really happy, right?

393
00:21:48,824 --> 00:21:53,264
Like you've made no one ultimately
like super, okay, you've truly listened

394
00:21:53,264 --> 00:21:54,435
to me and you've solved my problem.

395
00:21:55,365 --> 00:22:01,004
So I think from like a, if I were to do
like the ideal situation, I think from

396
00:22:01,004 --> 00:22:04,635
like an order of operations perspective
is like deliver value to patients.

397
00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:08,430
Health tech solution must deliver
meaningful benefit directly to

398
00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:12,000
patients, whether you've improved
health outcomes, convenience, or

399
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,170
just a better experience, right?

400
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,690
The second thing is once you
have that go for ROI for payers,

401
00:22:18,810 --> 00:22:21,270
so like this is insurers.

402
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:22,380
This includes employers.

403
00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:26,610
Like you need to see measurable cost
savings or efficiency to justify like

404
00:22:26,670 --> 00:22:29,280
this investment that you've made when
you're building this sort of things.

405
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,830
And then the third and last thing is like

406
00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:34,335
invest in a sustainable business model.

407
00:22:34,335 --> 00:22:39,165
So like a scalable health tech business
must balance patient outcomes and payer

408
00:22:39,165 --> 00:22:41,115
value with like ops efficiency, right?

409
00:22:41,115 --> 00:22:44,385
And so that's just like if
I were to go start a company

410
00:22:44,385 --> 00:22:45,705
tomorrow, like that's the agenda.

411
00:22:47,925 --> 00:22:51,825
So looking forward to feedback
loops here, and these are critical

412
00:22:51,825 --> 00:22:55,335
in every industry, I would say,
but particularly so in healthcare.

413
00:22:55,635 --> 00:22:58,995
And so kind of leading from the,
the previous question where you have

414
00:22:58,995 --> 00:23:03,330
different stakeholder groups involved
in this whole equation, how do you

415
00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:07,110
make sure that feedback from actual
users influences the products you're

416
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:11,070
developing and how do you balance that
with potentially some conflicting goals,

417
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,350
um, such as from parties like payers?

418
00:23:14,159 --> 00:23:16,919
Yeah, the reality is you
get it where you get it.

419
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:19,500
Like you just hope it comes to
you, and if you don't, you need

420
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,180
to do a lot of work to find it.

421
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:25,230
But qualitative user feedback
is the predominant one.

422
00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:30,720
So sending out surveys to either the
clinicians that are deploying your service

423
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,909
or using the technology that you build or
surveys to the patients that are using it

424
00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:38,070
at Propeller, we did an advisory board.

425
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,325
We like helped pay for patient
medication or gave them discounts on

426
00:23:44,325 --> 00:23:49,635
things, even like Amazon gift cards,
like, you know, very general stuff.

427
00:23:49,635 --> 00:23:53,385
But they were very empowered and
excited to help provide information.

428
00:23:53,385 --> 00:23:55,815
'cause they're like, Hey, I, I'm
a super user of your platform.

429
00:23:56,775 --> 00:23:58,665
I want this to get better for my own sake.

430
00:23:58,665 --> 00:24:02,625
Now I have asthma or COPD and
therefore I'm willing to help.

431
00:24:03,075 --> 00:24:05,504
The boots on the ground people
provide a lot of good feedback.

432
00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:08,535
I can't tell you how many times, like
I got a Slack message from a nurse

433
00:24:08,535 --> 00:24:13,800
about something very like seemingly
micro, but actually super impactful, uh,

434
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:18,149
just about the experience that they're
delivering, and that's really good.

435
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240
I think the second thing
is like instrumentation.

436
00:24:21,419 --> 00:24:24,389
So like building user feedback
loops into your product, there are

437
00:24:24,389 --> 00:24:28,020
platforms that help you do this,
like CDP platforms, customer data.

438
00:24:28,905 --> 00:24:29,505
That's what it's called.

439
00:24:29,505 --> 00:24:33,465
CDP, customer data platforms,
and then building out your data

440
00:24:33,465 --> 00:24:38,595
infrastructure and like instrumenting
various funnel experiences, right?

441
00:24:38,595 --> 00:24:42,300
So like if you have an enrollment
workflow, understanding the various

442
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:46,980
points of failure or drop off if you
are measuring adherence or you're

443
00:24:46,980 --> 00:24:48,960
measuring engagement in your app, right?

444
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,919
Like figuring out how to do that and
leveraging that to help inform decisions.

445
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,760
And then the third thing is like
patient reported outcome measures.

446
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,030
These are defined by the
clinical community called proms.

447
00:25:00,149 --> 00:25:02,415
In mental health, we had PHQ-9s.

448
00:25:02,774 --> 00:25:06,075
In cardiac care, we have KCCQ-12, right?

449
00:25:06,075 --> 00:25:09,044
And so like, this is another
just indicator of like, is

450
00:25:09,044 --> 00:25:12,764
what we're doing working from
a clinical perspective, right?

451
00:25:12,764 --> 00:25:17,774
So ultimately, you know, just
qualitative feedback, getting your

452
00:25:17,774 --> 00:25:20,895
quantitative feedback from like
instrumentation within the product

453
00:25:20,895 --> 00:25:24,554
and then like other spreadsheets of
your, how your model's performing.

454
00:25:24,554 --> 00:25:28,725
And um, and then patient reported
outcomes is how I would, it's how

455
00:25:28,725 --> 00:25:30,675
we, how I've gone about these things.

456
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:35,430
I came across an article that
you wrote or you were quoted in

457
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,360
on, uh, making build versus buy
decisions and product development.

458
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:41,670
As you know, here at Newfire,
this kind of assessment is one of

459
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:45,210
the services that we offer to our
clients and help them out with.

460
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:48,630
So curious if you could share some
of what you've learned about making

461
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:52,500
that evaluation, and specifically what
are some of the key considerations

462
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,520
that often are overlooked by perhaps
executive teams when assessing?

463
00:25:57,465 --> 00:25:58,695
How to, how to go about that.

464
00:25:59,534 --> 00:25:59,774
Yeah.

465
00:25:59,774 --> 00:26:04,514
It's a hard one, Brendan, and to your
point, like a lot of people want to know

466
00:26:04,514 --> 00:26:06,465
like, are my, am I doing the right thing?

467
00:26:06,465 --> 00:26:09,645
Because it could be detrimental
or very costly to the business.

468
00:26:09,735 --> 00:26:12,645
Unfortunately, I, I don't think
it's a one size fit all approach.

469
00:26:13,485 --> 00:26:17,480
It's not a build and it's not a buy
only, it's, it's usually a mix of it.

470
00:26:17,485 --> 00:26:19,965
It depends, and it's like
probably a hybrid approach.

471
00:26:20,024 --> 00:26:25,125
But I've thought about it in a way
of like, what happens if you buy

472
00:26:25,125 --> 00:26:28,605
your, all your solutions or if you
build, and then what does the hybrid

473
00:26:28,605 --> 00:26:32,385
approach look like and like what stage
of businesses should be doing what?

474
00:26:32,385 --> 00:26:35,445
And so I, I can kinda
walk us through that.

475
00:26:36,554 --> 00:26:39,105
Ultimately, I think the questions
you need to ask yourself is like,

476
00:26:39,135 --> 00:26:41,774
what does core to your business,
like what am I offering right?

477
00:26:41,955 --> 00:26:47,325
Is my EMR or like my ability to do
revenue cycle, the most important thing

478
00:26:47,325 --> 00:26:52,140
about my business or if it's not like,
should I be investing so much effort

479
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:53,310
or engineering knowledge into that.

480
00:26:54,060 --> 00:26:55,980
Second thing, stage a company,
which I talked about, and

481
00:26:55,980 --> 00:26:57,030
I'll get into more detail.

482
00:26:57,210 --> 00:27:00,180
Um, and the third thing is like, how
quickly do I need to go to market?

483
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,210
And if we're talking about a healthcare
service, it's very important.

484
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:06,715
If you buy all your solutions, what
ends up happening is you're, you're

485
00:27:06,810 --> 00:27:10,110
kind of unable to compete with
incumbents in new entrants, right?

486
00:27:10,110 --> 00:27:11,580
You're like not flexible enough

487
00:27:12,195 --> 00:27:17,775
to adapt or you can't do anything
new or novel, like you're kind of

488
00:27:17,775 --> 00:27:21,825
restricted within the technology that
you've bought and you're beheld to the

489
00:27:21,825 --> 00:27:24,495
product roadmap of the vendor, right?

490
00:27:24,495 --> 00:27:26,595
Which, who knows what that looks like.

491
00:27:27,045 --> 00:27:29,085
Um, you also, when you buy
all your solutions, you can't

492
00:27:29,085 --> 00:27:31,155
really develop any like IP.

493
00:27:31,965 --> 00:27:34,965
You can't really say that your
service is delivered by any sort

494
00:27:34,965 --> 00:27:36,255
of like intellectual property.

495
00:27:36,255 --> 00:27:41,545
It's like your core experiences are
really the product or the byproduct of

496
00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:45,020
something else that you've integrated
or pulled into the fold of your service.

497
00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:48,740
And then I think the most
important thing, if you buy all

498
00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:52,850
your solutions, you're gonna hit a
ceiling on impact on your metrics.

499
00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:53,090
Right?

500
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:55,790
Um, hopefully most businesses
know what metrics are most

501
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:59,149
important to them, your ability to.

502
00:27:59,535 --> 00:28:03,675
But when you buy something, like
you'll hit a certain, let's say you're

503
00:28:03,675 --> 00:28:06,855
optimizing or you're using it to
the best of that product's ability,

504
00:28:07,635 --> 00:28:09,645
getting every ounce of value out of it.

505
00:28:10,035 --> 00:28:13,305
You hit a, you hit the metrics,
or you kind of measure your

506
00:28:13,305 --> 00:28:14,775
progress against those metrics.

507
00:28:15,045 --> 00:28:20,115
They won't improve unless you start
adding any sort of like investing

508
00:28:20,115 --> 00:28:25,515
in, hey first appointment is really
important and the scheduling experience

509
00:28:25,515 --> 00:28:27,045
within my product kind of sucks.

510
00:28:27,075 --> 00:28:31,605
And so like I need to maybe deviate
out of my existing scheduling solution

511
00:28:31,605 --> 00:28:35,895
and figure out a way to get first
appointment on the books faster, right?

512
00:28:37,065 --> 00:28:40,635
If you build all your solutions,
you also run some challenges, right?

513
00:28:40,635 --> 00:28:45,855
So, if you build everything, you end
up reinventing the wheel on things that

514
00:28:45,855 --> 00:28:48,345
like you probably just shouldn't, right?

515
00:28:48,345 --> 00:28:49,635
They exist, they're decent.

516
00:28:49,754 --> 00:28:51,465
Again, it's not core to your business.

517
00:28:51,525 --> 00:28:54,435
You probably should be focusing a
little bit more on your go to market

518
00:28:55,095 --> 00:28:58,545
or innovating and learning on things
that are core to your business.

519
00:28:58,545 --> 00:29:01,695
So every time you iterate on your product,
you're gonna get some learnings out of it.

520
00:29:02,355 --> 00:29:07,755
Um, you also create a ton of tech debt
by making a ton of engineering investment

521
00:29:07,755 --> 00:29:12,015
before you truly understand your
end-user population or your business.

522
00:29:12,015 --> 00:29:15,345
And so if you're early on and you're just
building everything you, you're gonna

523
00:29:15,345 --> 00:29:21,405
make costly assumptions that are gonna
have to end up in refactoring of something

524
00:29:21,405 --> 00:29:23,385
or just redesigning an entire product.

525
00:29:24,150 --> 00:29:26,790
And then lastly, if you build all
your solutions, like there's a

526
00:29:26,790 --> 00:29:31,920
major upfront cost without promise
of revenue, and honestly with the

527
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,330
current venture landscape, you'll be
crushed 'cause it's, I think in 2021,

528
00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:39,870
I knew a lot of startups that were
building their EMRs from scratch.

529
00:29:40,485 --> 00:29:43,935
Now, if you come to me today and you tell
me I'm gonna build my own custom, EMR, I

530
00:29:43,935 --> 00:29:48,195
tell you to get out of the room, like, I
don't know, maybe I'd say something nicer,

531
00:29:48,195 --> 00:29:51,195
but I don't think that's smart anymore.

532
00:29:51,254 --> 00:29:54,615
Those who did it and have it and have
done successful in that, like great,

533
00:29:54,615 --> 00:29:57,885
they came in a different time, but
now I just don't think that's really

534
00:29:57,945 --> 00:29:59,985
responsible or fiscally responsible.

535
00:30:01,034 --> 00:30:04,905
So, with a hybrid approach,
I think it's the only way to

536
00:30:04,905 --> 00:30:05,985
achieve the following, right?

537
00:30:06,165 --> 00:30:10,065
You drive down your costs, you
increase margin, you ensure

538
00:30:10,065 --> 00:30:11,625
sustainable unit economics.

539
00:30:12,285 --> 00:30:17,445
You can also achieve clinical outcomes
and compete in a very, what I think

540
00:30:17,445 --> 00:30:19,065
is like a saturated market, right?

541
00:30:19,095 --> 00:30:23,820
There's just a lot of lookalikes
of various services and then you

542
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,180
probably, or hopefully don't die
before you achieve your goals.

543
00:30:27,420 --> 00:30:29,970
I've also like thought
about it in stages, right?

544
00:30:29,970 --> 00:30:33,930
So an early-stage company should
be optimizing on solving use cases

545
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:35,370
to prove out their hypothesis.

546
00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:39,030
And like the best approach for that
is like, hey, use some existing

547
00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:40,440
solutions off the wall, right?

548
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,250
Or off the shelf.

549
00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:45,480
Key focus is gonna be on like cost
effectiveness, speed to market,

550
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,129
scalability and integral or like how
like integratable that platform is.

551
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,280
The second stage I would call
like growth stage companies.

552
00:30:53,610 --> 00:30:56,850
They should be prioritizing revenue
and you know, plan to be a bit more

553
00:30:56,850 --> 00:30:59,970
cash efficient, but not overly so,
like the best approach there is

554
00:30:59,970 --> 00:31:01,379
that hybrid approach I talked about.

555
00:31:01,379 --> 00:31:05,879
So it's like, you should be investing
in customizing or building solutions

556
00:31:05,879 --> 00:31:07,290
that differentiate you in the market.

557
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:10,860
You should think about a balanced
investment in like build versus

558
00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:14,340
buy and like how thinking
about flexible integration.

559
00:31:15,270 --> 00:31:18,360
And then the mature company moves
from like cashing efficient to

560
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,129
long-term sustainable unit economics.

561
00:31:20,129 --> 00:31:23,310
And I think the best approach for
them is like, I understand my business

562
00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:27,215
and now I need to just build a lot
of custom software to help make that

563
00:31:27,215 --> 00:31:30,935
business the most successful it possibly
can be and bring shareholder value.

564
00:31:31,625 --> 00:31:35,885
And so like key focus is like te
tailored solutions, control and

565
00:31:35,885 --> 00:31:38,375
flexibility of the solution itself.

566
00:31:38,495 --> 00:31:43,535
And then long term ROI and the ability
to continuously innovate on that.

567
00:31:43,535 --> 00:31:48,305
It's building a really robust architecture
and uh, I'm able to iterate fast

568
00:31:48,305 --> 00:31:49,745
and do feature development quickly.

569
00:31:49,805 --> 00:31:56,160
And so, long-winded answer to say like
it depends and it just, you know, it

570
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,100
depends on where you are as a company,
what's core to your business, and like

571
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:00,420
how quickly you wanna go to market.

572
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:03,390
But I always think it's the hybrid
approach is probably the best.

573
00:32:04,754 --> 00:32:08,295
So Omar, I really appreciate your
perspective and it seems like a lot

574
00:32:08,295 --> 00:32:11,985
of the things you've talked about have
been influenced by the scaling efforts

575
00:32:11,985 --> 00:32:15,075
that you were involved within your
roles at, at Cerebral and Propeller.

576
00:32:15,405 --> 00:32:18,465
So reflecting on those experiences, can
you tell me about some of the lessons

577
00:32:18,465 --> 00:32:21,495
that you learned during those growth
cycles and how does that shape your,

578
00:32:21,555 --> 00:32:24,795
your approach to build versus buy and
kind of just general product development?

579
00:32:26,355 --> 00:32:29,895
Yeah, I think like, again, like
I really like the hybrid approach

580
00:32:29,895 --> 00:32:32,715
and so for the buy decisions, there
are a couple things I consider.

581
00:32:32,805 --> 00:32:38,729
I first consider capabilities and use
cases like, does this tool or technology

582
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,719
actually solve the use case I need
solved though, for example, like I need

583
00:32:42,719 --> 00:32:45,780
to schedule patients with a provider.

584
00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:50,790
Providers have their own availabilities
in these like friendly PC, MSO 10 99

585
00:32:50,790 --> 00:32:55,020
bottles, and then patients have their own
ability and like we need to service both.

586
00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:59,189
So does the technology allow me to
understand a provider schedule and

587
00:32:59,189 --> 00:33:03,855
then allow a patient to schedule
directly from a calendar or even like

588
00:33:03,855 --> 00:33:05,385
a clinical coordinator, do that, right?

589
00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:08,025
So that's like, just
like a very easy example.

590
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:11,625
The next thing I consider, it's like
after it solves my use case, it's like

591
00:33:11,685 --> 00:33:13,725
what does the user experience look like?

592
00:33:13,725 --> 00:33:17,175
So does it not only solve my use
case, but does it solve my use case

593
00:33:17,175 --> 00:33:20,565
better than like the competition
would, if that's really important.

594
00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:23,925
And then do the users of
the system enjoy using it?

595
00:33:23,925 --> 00:33:31,365
So for example, like for a CRM, you know,
enrollment CRMs are very good at like

596
00:33:31,754 --> 00:33:34,695
sales motions and enrollment and funnels.

597
00:33:35,774 --> 00:33:38,175
Salesforce is super highly
customizable and can help

598
00:33:38,294 --> 00:33:39,435
solve any healthcare use case.

599
00:33:40,139 --> 00:33:43,889
However, I've looked at like HubSpot
and I thought, oh wow, HubSpot has

600
00:33:43,889 --> 00:33:47,280
like a really great user experience
and it's easier to understand

601
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:48,659
for that kind of resource, right?

602
00:33:48,659 --> 00:33:52,500
And so like for the individual using
that, who's gonna have higher NPS?

603
00:33:52,649 --> 00:33:57,810
Will the enrollment specialist
know how to use Salesforce or will

604
00:33:57,810 --> 00:33:59,070
they prefer to be in like HubSpot?

605
00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:02,280
Second thing is like scalability.

606
00:34:02,399 --> 00:34:05,100
So like, do you have a
modular architecture?

607
00:34:05,594 --> 00:34:11,625
And can your platform perform at scale or
like it should be adding new functionality

608
00:34:11,775 --> 00:34:16,275
or can I scale in components independently
in my own architecture with this tool?

609
00:34:17,114 --> 00:34:20,730
And then, will this tool
be able to handle scale?

610
00:34:20,730 --> 00:34:23,490
Like is it 10 patients
it does really well.

611
00:34:23,490 --> 00:34:25,830
Is it a hundred patients
it still does really well.

612
00:34:25,830 --> 00:34:26,760
A thousand patients.

613
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,060
It does.

614
00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:27,750
Okay.

615
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:29,850
And then like at 10,000,
it's just like awful.

616
00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:33,480
Like I need to know those numbers
so that I can be responsible

617
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,560
about bringing these things in.

618
00:34:35,770 --> 00:34:38,650
Is the off the shelf solution,
flexible or customizable?

619
00:34:38,650 --> 00:34:42,040
Can I customize or configure
the solution to basically serve

620
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,390
my needs a little bit more?

621
00:34:43,450 --> 00:34:47,680
Like obviously I can't make it do exactly
what I need it to do, but is there

622
00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:53,590
custom dashboard reporting or does it
have APIs that I can leverage to allow

623
00:34:53,590 --> 00:34:55,690
for custom development down the road?

624
00:34:55,690 --> 00:34:59,740
Or is the data model flexible
and allows me to add metadata

625
00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:01,450
to various things or objects?

626
00:35:01,450 --> 00:35:01,660
Right.

627
00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:04,484
So this is like things
that I would look for.

628
00:35:04,694 --> 00:35:06,795
Security and compliance has
gotta be baked in, right?

629
00:35:06,795 --> 00:35:11,774
You just gotta make sure PHI is not
overly permissive or, uh, it complies

630
00:35:11,774 --> 00:35:15,495
with all the HIPAA regulation and
like, does the vendor sign PaaS?

631
00:35:15,944 --> 00:35:18,944
Um, and this is the most important one,
probably it's like cost and ROI, like,

632
00:35:18,944 --> 00:35:20,835
what is the total cost of ownership?

633
00:35:21,615 --> 00:35:23,565
How much do I spend to implement it?

634
00:35:23,565 --> 00:35:27,045
How much do I spend on the contract
itself, the vendor value, and how much

635
00:35:27,045 --> 00:35:29,775
do I spend to like maintain it over time?

636
00:35:29,865 --> 00:35:34,005
Are engineers having to do things or
IT specialists having to do things?

637
00:35:34,365 --> 00:35:36,885
Are Ops teams having to do
things on a regular basis to

638
00:35:36,885 --> 00:35:38,205
like factor all that cost in?

639
00:35:38,775 --> 00:35:40,965
And then what does the
expected return on investment?

640
00:35:41,025 --> 00:35:44,595
Sometimes the use case does not have
a expected return on investment, but

641
00:35:44,595 --> 00:35:47,835
like you should have an assessment
of what does my percentage of

642
00:35:47,835 --> 00:35:50,984
revenue should be for revenue cycle.

643
00:35:50,984 --> 00:35:52,725
Like it's just a thing that we have to do.

644
00:35:53,535 --> 00:35:58,004
It is tied to revenue that I do
collect, but is it a revenue driver?

645
00:35:58,004 --> 00:35:59,234
Like, sort of, not really.

646
00:35:59,654 --> 00:36:02,955
So what's a responsible percentage of
revenue that I'm allowed to spend on that?

647
00:36:03,134 --> 00:36:05,595
And how does the cost scale?

648
00:36:05,775 --> 00:36:07,634
Is it cheap at first?

649
00:36:07,634 --> 00:36:10,095
But as I get more users on the
platform, it just gets really

650
00:36:10,095 --> 00:36:11,535
expensive and hard to manage.

651
00:36:11,714 --> 00:36:12,765
That's something to consider.

652
00:36:13,605 --> 00:36:17,115
Um, for the build decision,
I think a lot simpler.

653
00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:19,590
Is this use case core to my business?

654
00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:22,230
I said this already, or like a
point of differentiation for me.

655
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,310
Um, if it is, then I need to
build that specific thing and

656
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:28,350
I need to plan for my roadmap.

657
00:36:28,350 --> 00:36:31,560
Like maybe I solve for it
with a off the shelf solution.

658
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,700
At first, I. Um, that's fine if you're
trying to get to market quickly, but

659
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:38,339
if you're really trying to kill it
in that category, let's say you're

660
00:36:38,339 --> 00:36:39,930
like in the referrals business.

661
00:36:39,959 --> 00:36:43,319
I currently advise a company
that's, you know, helping connect

662
00:36:43,319 --> 00:36:46,259
primary care providers with
high quality specialty networks.

663
00:36:46,259 --> 00:36:50,040
And it's like referral is
like the main game for them.

664
00:36:50,129 --> 00:36:55,319
And so of course the referral
experience needs to be built metic or

665
00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:59,865
meticulous and like they've thought
through everything and that should be

666
00:36:59,865 --> 00:37:01,815
like a build thing that they work on.

667
00:37:02,475 --> 00:37:05,444
And they should be thinking about,
can I build that better than

668
00:37:05,444 --> 00:37:07,245
any existing solution out there?

669
00:37:07,515 --> 00:37:11,745
And can I drive a metric better
than any solution out there, right?

670
00:37:11,745 --> 00:37:14,055
Because the metric is probably
one of the most important things.

671
00:37:15,464 --> 00:37:18,435
And then the last thing with that,
like can I build it cheaper than the

672
00:37:18,435 --> 00:37:22,305
total cost of ownership of any given
technology that's off the shelf?

673
00:37:22,424 --> 00:37:28,710
So I think those are two things that,
those are things that I think about when

674
00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:32,279
building and when I, and buying decisions.

675
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,529
So, Omar, I'm curious, how do you, how do
you navigate the differences between D2C

676
00:37:38,549 --> 00:37:43,049
or direct to consumer and then clinical
product development in healthcare tech?

677
00:37:43,049 --> 00:37:45,299
And what are some of the unique
challenges and opportunities

678
00:37:45,299 --> 00:37:46,740
in in each of those pathways?

679
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:47,430
Yeah.

680
00:37:48,209 --> 00:37:49,830
I think direct to consumer is so fun.

681
00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:52,950
I think it's the most fun thing
that you can ever be a part of.

682
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,149
It's no nonsense.

683
00:37:54,149 --> 00:37:58,080
It's like the best experience
wins no matter what.

684
00:37:58,350 --> 00:38:00,060
It doesn't lend itself to.

685
00:38:01,155 --> 00:38:03,615
Various factors that like
a B2B environment would.

686
00:38:03,615 --> 00:38:05,385
So it's like it's very performance driven.

687
00:38:05,445 --> 00:38:08,835
Pro product people thrive in
it because it's data driven.

688
00:38:09,255 --> 00:38:10,875
And D2C lends itself to that.

689
00:38:11,415 --> 00:38:12,915
Opinions backed without data

690
00:38:12,915 --> 00:38:14,805
don't really farewell in that environment.

691
00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:16,155
And that's kind of why I like it.

692
00:38:16,455 --> 00:38:19,935
Um, for most consumer products that win,
it's simply because people love them

693
00:38:20,175 --> 00:38:22,980
and not because they have to use them.

694
00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:26,250
I talked about like people have to use
certain things in healthcare earlier.

695
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,810
Um, in a B2B environment, you need
to meet minimum capabilities usually

696
00:38:30,930 --> 00:38:34,770
to play, I'm required to play in a
market, I need to have X, Y, Z feature.

697
00:38:35,550 --> 00:38:40,500
And then they don't really, they do
optimize for business performance

698
00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:44,910
and patient outcomes, but then like
NPS is like a luxury, uh, metric.

699
00:38:44,910 --> 00:38:47,580
Like it's a luxury if you've
done a good job there.

700
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:48,690
So.

701
00:38:48,990 --> 00:38:54,330
In D2C, if people don't really like the
experiences of a B2B focused product,

702
00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:57,930
but a D2C one, like the experience
matters a lot, and if people don't

703
00:38:57,930 --> 00:38:58,920
like it, they just won't use it.

704
00:38:59,190 --> 00:39:00,870
Um, so that, I think
that's the difference.

705
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,090
You've recently been focused
on enabling value-based care at

706
00:39:06,090 --> 00:39:09,600
Ventricle Health and specifically
tackling some of the challenges

707
00:39:09,660 --> 00:39:11,520
of enrollment with VBC workflows.

708
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,880
So could you share some insights
on strategies you've implemented to

709
00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:16,740
improve patient engagement with that?

710
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:17,820
With that problem?

711
00:39:18,315 --> 00:39:18,675
Yeah.

712
00:39:18,915 --> 00:39:22,185
And not that like we're perfect and we
figured it out, but you know, I've seen

713
00:39:22,185 --> 00:39:23,655
a lot of people mess this up, right?

714
00:39:23,655 --> 00:39:26,535
I think they view this differently
than a sales motion, and I

715
00:39:26,535 --> 00:39:27,585
think that's inherently wrong.

716
00:39:27,735 --> 00:39:28,875
Run this like a sales funnel.

717
00:39:29,055 --> 00:39:34,485
Get a CRM, like CRMs are very
good at doing the function,

718
00:39:34,635 --> 00:39:37,215
a lot of the function, they have
the features required to deliver

719
00:39:37,215 --> 00:39:39,615
this service at a very high quality.

720
00:39:40,275 --> 00:39:43,245
So get a CRM that you can push
PHI into, and then build on top

721
00:39:43,245 --> 00:39:44,595
of that enrollment workflow.

722
00:39:45,315 --> 00:39:47,505
Build competency in a
call center workflow.

723
00:39:47,505 --> 00:39:49,515
So like use tools like Dialpad, right?

724
00:39:49,515 --> 00:39:50,625
That are very good at that thing.

725
00:39:50,625 --> 00:39:53,805
And then they have AI to understand
sentiment analysis and learn from

726
00:39:53,805 --> 00:39:54,795
like how those calls are going.

727
00:39:55,335 --> 00:39:58,935
And build like a traditional tree
structure, empower people with data.

728
00:39:59,265 --> 00:40:04,845
We leverage ADT feeds, we lever
le leverage HIEs, we talk about

729
00:40:04,845 --> 00:40:08,444
claims data, we get referral data,
we get transitions of care data.

730
00:40:08,444 --> 00:40:12,645
Like all of that is super relevant
and should be incorporated

731
00:40:12,645 --> 00:40:13,995
into the scripting somehow.

732
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:14,325
Right?

733
00:40:14,325 --> 00:40:17,865
Like contextualizing, Hey, I'm
Ventricle and I'm reaching out

734
00:40:17,865 --> 00:40:20,685
because you were recently discharged
from the hospital and oh by the way,

735
00:40:20,685 --> 00:40:22,395
we know your primary care doctor.

736
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:23,670
He's cool with us.

737
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:24,780
We are friends, right?

738
00:40:24,780 --> 00:40:28,950
That is a compelling message that drives
better engagement and performance,

739
00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:32,850
and so win the hearts and minds of
everybody around you as well., Like,

740
00:40:34,110 --> 00:40:38,549
multiple people touch the patient,
whether it's a caregiver or a primary

741
00:40:38,549 --> 00:40:42,959
care doctor or their cardiologist or
other specialty providers, like you

742
00:40:42,959 --> 00:40:44,790
want to be friends with all of them.

743
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:48,089
So like work with the payers to get
the provider attribution file and

744
00:40:48,089 --> 00:40:52,410
like call every primary care doctor
and say, Hey, you have X amount

745
00:40:52,410 --> 00:40:53,549
of patients with heart failure.

746
00:40:53,549 --> 00:40:57,870
Like I'd like to be friends, like, I'm
not here to take business away from you.

747
00:40:57,870 --> 00:40:59,490
I just wanna help support your patient.

748
00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:03,720
Can you help the messaging of
like Ventricle or whatever care

749
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:06,330
management product is helpful, right?

750
00:41:07,319 --> 00:41:08,850
And then make it seamless, right?

751
00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:12,660
So like the funnel should just feel
easy for both the enrollment person

752
00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:17,730
facilitating, the Ops person facilitating
and then the actual patients.

753
00:41:17,759 --> 00:41:23,100
Use local phone numbers so that it doesn't
feel like they're getting spam calls.

754
00:41:23,385 --> 00:41:25,245
Um, try out different call scripts.

755
00:41:25,485 --> 00:41:29,205
Even experiment with AI Chatbots
like ElevenLabs makes a really

756
00:41:29,205 --> 00:41:32,205
mean LLM for this, and I think
people should play with that.

757
00:41:32,445 --> 00:41:35,805
Now, try, this is an
ongoing experimentation,

758
00:41:35,805 --> 00:41:36,985
you should treat it as such.

759
00:41:37,035 --> 00:41:40,875
Just because it's very clinical in
nature doesn't necessarily mean like we

760
00:41:40,875 --> 00:41:43,515
need to think too differently about it.

761
00:41:43,575 --> 00:41:48,950
I think we need to maintain
regulation and be thinking about PHI.

762
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:54,020
But other than that, like help the
Reforge content always talks about like

763
00:41:54,020 --> 00:41:56,450
retention is a byproduct of activation.

764
00:41:56,450 --> 00:41:59,450
Like think about activating the
patient, get them quickly to that

765
00:41:59,450 --> 00:42:03,680
aha moment of what the value is in
your product or your service, and use

766
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,000
your enrollment workflow for that.

767
00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:11,780
So Omar, stepping back to perhaps a last
formal question that has nothing to do

768
00:42:11,780 --> 00:42:14,180
with healthcare, technology or products.

769
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:15,990
What's your morning routine?

770
00:42:16,020 --> 00:42:19,140
I'm curious for someone who knows so
much about this stuff, you gotta be a

771
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:20,580
go-getter in the morning, is that right?

772
00:42:20,580 --> 00:42:22,350
Or Or Tell me about
how you start your day.

773
00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:25,859
Ooh, I don't know if I'm a go-getter
in the morning, I do the typical

774
00:42:25,859 --> 00:42:28,140
hygiene things, like I have to shower.

775
00:42:28,259 --> 00:42:32,250
My hair's longer than normal now, and I
used to think it was funny when my hair

776
00:42:32,250 --> 00:42:33,750
would just look all disheveled on calls.

777
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:38,384
So now I try to get clean, at
least look presentable for cameras.

778
00:42:38,895 --> 00:42:40,695
I'm a bit obsessed with making coffee.

779
00:42:40,695 --> 00:42:44,355
I like a good pour over, so I'm
always trying out new beans.

780
00:42:44,895 --> 00:42:49,305
My 23andMe, if you've done
it, it has a caffeine report.

781
00:42:50,445 --> 00:42:54,975
That caffeine report suggests that I am
more likely to consume more caffeine than

782
00:42:54,975 --> 00:42:57,435
the average human who's done that test.

783
00:42:57,435 --> 00:42:58,455
So I think that's pretty cool.

784
00:42:59,745 --> 00:43:00,915
I play, this is weird.

785
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,515
I, I play a few rounds of
like three minute chess in the

786
00:43:04,515 --> 00:43:05,775
morning when I drink my coffee.

787
00:43:05,775 --> 00:43:08,654
So it's, you know, quick, rapid fire.

788
00:43:08,654 --> 00:43:10,245
I don't really care about the outcome.

789
00:43:10,245 --> 00:43:14,625
It's just like a nice, think about
something, but not really in the morning.

790
00:43:14,625 --> 00:43:18,525
And then I will start my work day
with either meetings or deep work.

791
00:43:18,525 --> 00:43:19,634
Just depends on my schedule.

792
00:43:21,570 --> 00:43:24,240
All right, and as we wrap up
today's discussion, I'm gonna shift

793
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:25,770
the dynamics here a little bit.

794
00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:28,800
So you've shared with us, Omar,
a wealth of knowledge about your

795
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,150
background in scaling operations and
navigating complexities of health

796
00:43:33,150 --> 00:43:36,320
tech product development, and then
pushing the boundaries of BBC.

797
00:43:36,930 --> 00:43:38,400
Now, I'd love to give you the four.

798
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,050
So do you have any questions for me?

799
00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:42,570
Oh, that's different.

800
00:43:42,570 --> 00:43:43,650
Yeah, I do.

801
00:43:43,860 --> 00:43:49,890
I, this is actually self-serving and for
concept of care, I, I always wonder like,

802
00:43:50,715 --> 00:43:55,335
from a product manager's perspective in
healthcare, like what are the, what do you

803
00:43:55,335 --> 00:44:00,615
think are like the most important things
that like a product manager or product

804
00:44:00,615 --> 00:44:04,095
management function should be thinking
about when building in health tech?

805
00:44:05,955 --> 00:44:09,975
I think this is perhaps like a, uh,
the easy answer and, and the one that

806
00:44:09,975 --> 00:44:13,605
a lot of people would give, but I
really like to be centered around the

807
00:44:13,605 --> 00:44:18,195
patient experience and I think that
that is rooted in the fact that we

808
00:44:18,195 --> 00:44:22,725
are all patients and I've had a lot of
experiences personally among my family in

809
00:44:22,725 --> 00:44:24,165
the healthcare system, and there's just,

810
00:44:24,705 --> 00:44:26,834
there's just so many things that
you encounter as a patient that

811
00:44:26,834 --> 00:44:30,615
are not designed around you,
whether that be digital products

812
00:44:30,615 --> 00:44:34,904
or, you know, the insurance system
or all sorts of things like that.

813
00:44:34,904 --> 00:44:39,884
And it's, it's so meaningful to
me as a patient when I encounter

814
00:44:39,884 --> 00:44:42,285
something in healthcare that does
seem like it was designed for me and

815
00:44:42,285 --> 00:44:44,924
was designed around the needs that
I have and the concerns that I have.

816
00:44:44,984 --> 00:44:49,785
I like to keep that really in focus in my
work to make sure that we're ultimately

817
00:44:49,785 --> 00:44:52,305
serving the people that are, they're
getting the care and, and the reason

818
00:44:52,305 --> 00:44:53,924
that whole healthcare system exists.

819
00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:55,620
That's awesome.

820
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:55,950
Thanks.

821
00:44:57,529 --> 00:44:59,610
Omar, I really appreciate
our discussion today.

822
00:44:59,670 --> 00:45:03,360
If people wanna follow up on anything we
discussed here today or reach out to you,

823
00:45:03,540 --> 00:45:05,280
what's the best way for them to do that?

824
00:45:06,030 --> 00:45:07,170
Yeah, it's been a ton of fun.

825
00:45:07,290 --> 00:45:12,580
I'm, I'm very responsive, so
my email is omousa16@gmail.com.

826
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,380
If you DM me on LinkedIn,
I will likely respond.

827
00:45:16,410 --> 00:45:20,100
I'm, I have a pretty high
response rate Concept to Care.

828
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:21,390
Check us out.

829
00:45:21,390 --> 00:45:24,089
It's a really good podcast
about building in health tech.

830
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:26,490
I have an amazing co-founder and co-host.

831
00:45:26,490 --> 00:45:27,879
Her name is Angela Suthrave.

832
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:31,710
She's a product leader building
in healthcare and AI right now.

833
00:45:31,710 --> 00:45:35,640
And both her and I have just like these
awesome conversations that we want to

834
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,140
share with other folks, and we've decided
to bring people smarter than us to come

835
00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:43,410
talk about those conversations, and
so we hope people are getting value.

836
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:44,460
Yeah.

837
00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:46,830
I also have a Twitter,
it's called Omar M Health.

838
00:45:46,955 --> 00:45:48,480
I, I will respond there too.

839
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,450
I'm not as active there as I
wish I'd or I'd like to be, but.

840
00:45:52,109 --> 00:45:53,640
Yeah, and there's a Substack.

841
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,689
Concept to Care has a Substack, so check
out our sub substack follow, subscribe.

842
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,069
Um, there's some good content there
that we publish, so I'm very accessible.

843
00:46:03,447 --> 00:46:06,567
Omar, thanks so much for sharing
your perspective on strategic product

844
00:46:06,567 --> 00:46:08,007
management in healthcare with us.

845
00:46:08,172 --> 00:46:11,802
I really enjoyed the conversation,
especially around the key factors

846
00:46:11,802 --> 00:46:13,662
for deciding whether to build or buy.

847
00:46:13,962 --> 00:46:17,112
Um, very, very insightful there
and I think your work at especially

848
00:46:17,112 --> 00:46:20,022
various scaling companies,
really frames the importance of

849
00:46:20,022 --> 00:46:22,752
considering lots of different
viewpoints when developing products.

850
00:46:22,752 --> 00:46:23,652
So thanks for that.

851
00:46:24,608 --> 00:46:25,358
Yeah, same here.

852
00:46:25,358 --> 00:46:26,018
Thanks so much.

853
00:46:27,576 --> 00:46:29,586
To our listeners, hope
today's conversation was

854
00:46:29,586 --> 00:46:32,496
insightful and inspirational
to your own product journeys.

855
00:46:33,186 --> 00:46:36,726
Thanks for joining us on Hard Problem
Smart Solutions, the Newfire Podcast.

856
00:46:36,756 --> 00:46:37,626
I'll see you next time.