00:00:07
Speaker 1: Hello, it's Naomi Simpson, and I'm really pleased to bring you Season 7 of Handpicked, which is called No Permission Needed. In this episode, we talk about mental health technology, and our founder, Shane Muller of SafeWatch, is asking all the right questions on how to scale, how to build trust, how to build purpose with leadership.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: Our primary objective is actually to ensure people who care are taken care of. But then there's this massive, massive army of what we call relational carers. They do the heavy lifting. They really are the most critical early warning net for someone and their own mental well-being.
00:00:59
Speaker 1: Hello, it's Naomi Simpson. And this is Handpicked, where we get to get asked the hard questions. That's me, actually. I don't know who I think the we is. But today we've got Shane Mueller, who has come on Handpicked with a really interesting platform. I'm going to call it a platform. So Shane, first of all, why don't you let us know a little bit about you and what your calling to becoming a founder was?
00:01:27
Speaker 2: Firstly, Naomi, thank you for having me on the show. It's fantastic to speak with yourself. I don't know if I responded to a call or started taking steps first. I think I actually started taking steps and realized it was a call. But I would say I'm really driven by making a difference within our world. I started that at a very, very young age. I set up my first business as a kid, really, but it was really to make a difference in the world we live in.
00:01:56
Speaker 1: That's great. And By definition, purpose comes from how we're making the world a better place. So maybe if you share a little bit more about the business that you're now working in.
00:02:08
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So SafeWatch is the main platform that I'm hoping to focus on. SafeWatch, exactly. SafeWatch. I've been working on this now, I don't know, about five years. Very heavy in research and development to date. It is within the mental health space, Naomi. And a couple of key things that this platform differentiates. Number one, it seems like the overwhelming majority of tools, digital tools and platforms out there in the world focus on the person who's struggling. Now, what we did was take a very, very different approach. Our primary objective is actually to ensure people who care are taken care of. Because if you take carers out of the equation in a nation, there's really a drop in hope for people who are struggling from any mental health condition. So our first objective is really to support carers. The carers do the heavy lifting when it comes to supporting people in their world, the most vulnerable people.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: So when you say carers, would that be family and friends or are they professionals or both?
00:03:17
Speaker 2: I would say both. We have two groups of carers. One is the paid slash professional carer, could be a psychologists, it could be a social worker, NGOs, etc. But then there's this massive, massive army of what we call relational carers. They don't walk around with that label. They actually walk around with a label called mom, sister, dad, etc. They don't call themselves carer, but they do the heavy lifting. They are there at the hours of the day and the night when they need to be there. They're great at reading the signs, the silence, the facial expressions. They really are the most critical early warning net for someone and their own mental well-being.
00:04:01
Speaker 1: So tell me, where are you up to in terms of the business and in terms of the scale up or revenue? And just give us a flavor for the maturity of the business.
00:04:14
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So we've literally only kicked off after, like I said, about five or six years of Heavy research and development. We're now working with some amazing brands. They're running some very great, great pilots right now. We're working with organizations, very admirable brands out there in context of families, in the context of youth as well, in the context of NDIS service providers in the health. So we actually have quite a good breadth of coverage when it comes to these pilots and we're We've already gotten a great pipeline shifting that into revenue where we start to generate revenue. So you could actually say we're literally in infancy days, even though it's been five, six years in the making.
00:04:59
Speaker 1: So what is the revenue model? How does it work?
00:05:02
Speaker 2: So our revenue model predominantly in the first case when it comes to carers would be NGOs. We have found NGOs are out there. They're right in the middle of everything. They may not be the specialist therapist, but they are right there in the community and they are the best place to be that orchestrator, to connect everyone needed to support a carer and to support the person that they're caring for. They're the ultimate in connecting. So our objective is to ensure there's an alignment of objectives between the various NGOs and the work we do. We deliver this platform to them. And the platform is founded, Naomi, on the principle that it takes a whole village to do life. Similar to the proverb that says it takes a village to raise a child, our research has shown it doesn't stop when someone's not a child. You'd have to have a village your whole life.
00:05:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, community is very, very important. The people around us are as important. I know that as a founder. So what is the first question that you've got for me?
00:06:09
Speaker 2: Fantastic. So You've built something absolutely amazing, Naomi, over the tenure that you've done, what you've done and created trust. Now, I want to talk about trust. When you have gone out and created brand trust, my question is, how do you move from building customer trust to building community trust?
00:06:32
Speaker 1: I think the first of all is to understand all of the stakeholder groups and And what is the job that you're doing for them? Like, what is the important piece for them? And you would probably have a stakeholder map. And it is often those people that might never be in touch with you that are equally important for their advocacy and to speak positively, even if it's just about the need for It speaks to me very loudly, this notion of community, because when something does happen in a community, often we are so ill-prepared. As Australians, we do not know how to handle grief and we don't have particular traditions around it. There might be different cultural ones in different cultural parts of our, but we really don't have a program of This is what we do to go through a process of grieving. And that can often leave somebody very isolated or the people around very isolated. So I think understanding that the job that you're doing. The other thing is, and you speak to community really important, we all think we're alone until we're not or we need somebody. and isolation and loneliness is an epidemic and it's getting worse in the days of AI and people thinking they've got a friend online and but how do you know it's real how do you know that what they're saying is real so I guess what I would say is the way that we built trust was just being real people doing business with real people it was being authentic when we made a mistake we told them we made a mistake if something went wrong we said we you know it was it wasn't our best work. And knowing that putting a face behind the business really supported it, even though I've never put my face on the website, I think I'm in the about us somewhere. But it was more being prepared to get out from behind the website, go to networking events, go to community events, going to associations and so forth, and just starting to listening to people and talking and understanding. And People do know that we're real people and we'd put, you know, our team members doing experiences. No, no, this is what we really think. We still do it in the best of range. So building trust is a people game and it can't be outsourced to AI. It's the authenticity and the realness and demonstrating how you're listening is going to build trust.
00:09:13
Speaker 2: Wow, that's fantastic. That's really great. And it really resonates with the work we do. And you are right. We're not armed when it comes to having community. And unfortunately, it seems to show up in a crisis, which it doesn't need to. So thank you. Now, let me ask you my next question. Now, from an entrepreneurial point of view, Naomi, you've achieved what many would aspire to. Can I ask, if you look back at your journey, have there been times where there's been a conflict where you've had to balance building something meaningful versus the success of the business? And how did he decide how to balance that? That's the first aspect. And the second aspect, in doing that, how did he manage to keep the various stakeholders aligned? Again, the success of the business on the one hand and something meaningful on the other.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my ex-husband, who was working with me in Red Balloon, he was very about the numbers. He was an accountant by training and It was all about the financial results. And in the early days, of course, any budget is just arbitrary. You just kind of go, well, we probably could do that. Like it's not based on any fact. In fact, one of the things that I talk about and write about now is last year is not going to predict next year. Like the world is changing so fast, you cannot use that.
00:10:42
Speaker 2: As a benchmark.
00:10:44
Speaker 1: But, you know, we come up with a number. Now, if it was green, he'd go, that's amazing. And if it was red, he'd go... What are you going to do to fix it? You know, it was very confronting kind of conversations, which didn't make me feel good about myself. And I just found that if I was chasing the dollar, that I felt somehow small. Now, money makes the world go round. Don't get me wrong. But the impact of the work we do is what I had to remind myself over and over. The small businesses who get customers because of the work we do They get customers, which drives their livelihoods, drives their commercial success in their regional or rural community or in their small business. Or the people that we got to connect, you know, the grandfather who got to hang out with their grandchildren. And that was all they wanted was to spend time together. And we enabled it easily. So I found that I had to stay connected to the customer stories and literally read them or listen to them. And I still do. because that's why we do what we do. So when I gave up the number of being a success factor, dollars, versus the how many people have I impacted, and just focus on that, the dollars do flow. And so I just always stay focused on the impact. And at Big Red Group, we shift the way people experience life. That's our purpose. And so That purpose is broad enough for all of our stakeholder groups. Whether it's a team member who has learned something they didn't know before, we shifted their experience. Whether it's somebody in one of my speaking engagements that they learned something from me. Whether it's doing this podcast, maybe I've shifted a business owner's experience of life. Whether it is our suppliers or our customers or our contractors or our tech suppliers and so forth. But it is that sense of purpose and reminding ourselves of that purpose over and over again, but then validating that purpose by listening, by hearing and understanding the impact you're having. And that has just worked for me because then the dollars do flow. I remember Steve on Shark Tank famously saying, if you haven't got the dollars, you can't change the world. But you've got to make a business financially successful to provide services and employment. But the dollars are an outcome. They're not the reason why. So always stick to the reason why.
00:13:24
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Amazing. Thanks, Naomi. I'll go through my last question here. Now, if trust became Australia's next competitive advantage, and I don't mean just in business, but in communities, in schools, in families, and within the entire system fabric, What would you say leaders need to start doing today, start doing differently today?
00:13:50
Speaker 1: Well, they could stop lying. They could stop changing policy on the fly. They could have a little bit more empathy and understanding for small business owners and that we are the backbone of this country and we provide more employment than anybody else. And you've not made it any easier for us. So, look, trust comes from being transparent. And it also comes not from wearing your heart on your sleeve, but authentically thinking about other people and how you can make the world a better place. So having that level of emotional connection. And I'm very concerned about who people are listening to and why. And, you know, whether it be the algorithm feeding people on social media. But, you know, there was a time when you could put an ad on television on a Sunday night and 90% of the population would see it, and that you've launched your product. You know, we used to all watch the Leyland Brothers, which was this very Australian, authentic, outward adventure show. And so there was very uniting, whereas now everybody has individual media, so we do not know the messages that they're getting. So if we think about the leaders in our community, how are they being informed in a broader sense? not necessarily in a linear or myopic sense. And we need that as business owners as well. We think we've listened to one customer, but it's just one opinion. And that's an interesting insight. What did I learn from that? But what is their other view? You know, you can't please all the people all the time. So have a really good understanding of what the key issues for each stakeholder group. Gosh, you've got me on a little bit of a soapbox there, Shane, I'd say. I do get really bereft and upset. that people in government have never, ever sat in a small business's shoes. They just don't know what it's like to put your livelihood on the line every single day. They don't understand. And that we take a risk for that. And, you know, not many business owners I know are getting rich right now.
00:16:00
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. And also refreshing to hear Naomi. As a matter of fact, when it comes to SafeWatch, We not only ensured we had health practitioners have a seat at the table to architect the service, but we also brought in people with lived experience who actually lived it to help architect and design it.
00:16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think as businesses get bigger and bigger, we get a little bit further from the customer. And it's the one thing I say to any leader or director or whatever, just how are you keeping your finger on the pulse? It's not about the research study. It's not about what you're told in reports. It's about how you're getting the vibe of the thing and in terms of a greater straight and sane. So, you know, staying with big ears and deep curiosity is our job as a leader and to always understand that our view is not the only view. So I think that's really, really important. Shane, it sounds like you've got a big piece of work ahead of you and that you have a very important contribution to make to our community and I thank you for your work because you're not there yet and it's going to take ongoing like who would have thought that I'm 25 years in and we've delivered you know more than five million customers to small businesses around Australia you know like I didn't realize that at the what I you know all those years ago it is a marathon but a marathon worth.
00:17:28
Speaker 2: Running absolutely thank you thank you.
00:17:30
Speaker 1: Naomi yeah Thanks so much, Shane, for coming on the show. We'll make sure that we put a link into your website and we look forward to hearing more about your success and how you're supporting our community. Thank you. Fantastic.
00:17:45
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Hello, it's Naomi Simpson, and I'm really pleased to bring you Season 7 of Handpicked, which is called No Permission Needed. In this episode, we talk about mental health technology, and our founder, Shane Muller of SafeWatch, is asking all the right questions on how to scale, how to build trust, how to build purpose with leadership.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: Our primary objective is actually to ensure people who care are taken care of. But then there's this massive, massive army of what we call relational carers. They do the heavy lifting. They really are the most critical early warning net for someone and their own mental well-being.
00:00:59
Speaker 1: Hello, it's Naomi Simpson. And this is Handpicked, where we get to get asked the hard questions. That's me, actually. I don't know who I think the we is. But today we've got Shane Mueller, who has come on Handpicked with a really interesting platform. I'm going to call it a platform. So Shane, first of all, why don't you let us know a little bit about you and what your calling to becoming a founder was?
00:01:27
Speaker 2: Firstly, Naomi, thank you for having me on the show. It's fantastic to speak with yourself. I don't know if I responded to a call or started taking steps first. I think I actually started taking steps and realized it was a call. But I would say I'm really driven by making a difference within our world. I started that at a very, very young age. I set up my first business as a kid, really, but it was really to make a difference in the world we live in.
00:01:56
Speaker 1: That's great. And By definition, purpose comes from how we're making the world a better place. So maybe if you share a little bit more about the business that you're now working in.
00:02:08
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So SafeWatch is the main platform that I'm hoping to focus on. SafeWatch, exactly. SafeWatch. I've been working on this now, I don't know, about five years. Very heavy in research and development to date. It is within the mental health space, Naomi. And a couple of key things that this platform differentiates. Number one, it seems like the overwhelming majority of tools, digital tools and platforms out there in the world focus on the person who's struggling. Now, what we did was take a very, very different approach. Our primary objective is actually to ensure people who care are taken care of. Because if you take carers out of the equation in a nation, there's really a drop in hope for people who are struggling from any mental health condition. So our first objective is really to support carers. The carers do the heavy lifting when it comes to supporting people in their world, the most vulnerable people.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: So when you say carers, would that be family and friends or are they professionals or both?
00:03:17
Speaker 2: I would say both. We have two groups of carers. One is the paid slash professional carer, could be a psychologists, it could be a social worker, NGOs, etc. But then there's this massive, massive army of what we call relational carers. They don't walk around with that label. They actually walk around with a label called mom, sister, dad, etc. They don't call themselves carer, but they do the heavy lifting. They are there at the hours of the day and the night when they need to be there. They're great at reading the signs, the silence, the facial expressions. They really are the most critical early warning net for someone and their own mental well-being.
00:04:01
Speaker 1: So tell me, where are you up to in terms of the business and in terms of the scale up or revenue? And just give us a flavor for the maturity of the business.
00:04:14
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So we've literally only kicked off after, like I said, about five or six years of Heavy research and development. We're now working with some amazing brands. They're running some very great, great pilots right now. We're working with organizations, very admirable brands out there in context of families, in the context of youth as well, in the context of NDIS service providers in the health. So we actually have quite a good breadth of coverage when it comes to these pilots and we're We've already gotten a great pipeline shifting that into revenue where we start to generate revenue. So you could actually say we're literally in infancy days, even though it's been five, six years in the making.
00:04:59
Speaker 1: So what is the revenue model? How does it work?
00:05:02
Speaker 2: So our revenue model predominantly in the first case when it comes to carers would be NGOs. We have found NGOs are out there. They're right in the middle of everything. They may not be the specialist therapist, but they are right there in the community and they are the best place to be that orchestrator, to connect everyone needed to support a carer and to support the person that they're caring for. They're the ultimate in connecting. So our objective is to ensure there's an alignment of objectives between the various NGOs and the work we do. We deliver this platform to them. And the platform is founded, Naomi, on the principle that it takes a whole village to do life. Similar to the proverb that says it takes a village to raise a child, our research has shown it doesn't stop when someone's not a child. You'd have to have a village your whole life.
00:05:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, community is very, very important. The people around us are as important. I know that as a founder. So what is the first question that you've got for me?
00:06:09
Speaker 2: Fantastic. So You've built something absolutely amazing, Naomi, over the tenure that you've done, what you've done and created trust. Now, I want to talk about trust. When you have gone out and created brand trust, my question is, how do you move from building customer trust to building community trust?
00:06:32
Speaker 1: I think the first of all is to understand all of the stakeholder groups and And what is the job that you're doing for them? Like, what is the important piece for them? And you would probably have a stakeholder map. And it is often those people that might never be in touch with you that are equally important for their advocacy and to speak positively, even if it's just about the need for It speaks to me very loudly, this notion of community, because when something does happen in a community, often we are so ill-prepared. As Australians, we do not know how to handle grief and we don't have particular traditions around it. There might be different cultural ones in different cultural parts of our, but we really don't have a program of This is what we do to go through a process of grieving. And that can often leave somebody very isolated or the people around very isolated. So I think understanding that the job that you're doing. The other thing is, and you speak to community really important, we all think we're alone until we're not or we need somebody. and isolation and loneliness is an epidemic and it's getting worse in the days of AI and people thinking they've got a friend online and but how do you know it's real how do you know that what they're saying is real so I guess what I would say is the way that we built trust was just being real people doing business with real people it was being authentic when we made a mistake we told them we made a mistake if something went wrong we said we you know it was it wasn't our best work. And knowing that putting a face behind the business really supported it, even though I've never put my face on the website, I think I'm in the about us somewhere. But it was more being prepared to get out from behind the website, go to networking events, go to community events, going to associations and so forth, and just starting to listening to people and talking and understanding. And People do know that we're real people and we'd put, you know, our team members doing experiences. No, no, this is what we really think. We still do it in the best of range. So building trust is a people game and it can't be outsourced to AI. It's the authenticity and the realness and demonstrating how you're listening is going to build trust.
00:09:13
Speaker 2: Wow, that's fantastic. That's really great. And it really resonates with the work we do. And you are right. We're not armed when it comes to having community. And unfortunately, it seems to show up in a crisis, which it doesn't need to. So thank you. Now, let me ask you my next question. Now, from an entrepreneurial point of view, Naomi, you've achieved what many would aspire to. Can I ask, if you look back at your journey, have there been times where there's been a conflict where you've had to balance building something meaningful versus the success of the business? And how did he decide how to balance that? That's the first aspect. And the second aspect, in doing that, how did he manage to keep the various stakeholders aligned? Again, the success of the business on the one hand and something meaningful on the other.
00:10:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my ex-husband, who was working with me in Red Balloon, he was very about the numbers. He was an accountant by training and It was all about the financial results. And in the early days, of course, any budget is just arbitrary. You just kind of go, well, we probably could do that. Like it's not based on any fact. In fact, one of the things that I talk about and write about now is last year is not going to predict next year. Like the world is changing so fast, you cannot use that.
00:10:42
Speaker 2: As a benchmark.
00:10:44
Speaker 1: But, you know, we come up with a number. Now, if it was green, he'd go, that's amazing. And if it was red, he'd go... What are you going to do to fix it? You know, it was very confronting kind of conversations, which didn't make me feel good about myself. And I just found that if I was chasing the dollar, that I felt somehow small. Now, money makes the world go round. Don't get me wrong. But the impact of the work we do is what I had to remind myself over and over. The small businesses who get customers because of the work we do They get customers, which drives their livelihoods, drives their commercial success in their regional or rural community or in their small business. Or the people that we got to connect, you know, the grandfather who got to hang out with their grandchildren. And that was all they wanted was to spend time together. And we enabled it easily. So I found that I had to stay connected to the customer stories and literally read them or listen to them. And I still do. because that's why we do what we do. So when I gave up the number of being a success factor, dollars, versus the how many people have I impacted, and just focus on that, the dollars do flow. And so I just always stay focused on the impact. And at Big Red Group, we shift the way people experience life. That's our purpose. And so That purpose is broad enough for all of our stakeholder groups. Whether it's a team member who has learned something they didn't know before, we shifted their experience. Whether it's somebody in one of my speaking engagements that they learned something from me. Whether it's doing this podcast, maybe I've shifted a business owner's experience of life. Whether it is our suppliers or our customers or our contractors or our tech suppliers and so forth. But it is that sense of purpose and reminding ourselves of that purpose over and over again, but then validating that purpose by listening, by hearing and understanding the impact you're having. And that has just worked for me because then the dollars do flow. I remember Steve on Shark Tank famously saying, if you haven't got the dollars, you can't change the world. But you've got to make a business financially successful to provide services and employment. But the dollars are an outcome. They're not the reason why. So always stick to the reason why.
00:13:24
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Amazing. Thanks, Naomi. I'll go through my last question here. Now, if trust became Australia's next competitive advantage, and I don't mean just in business, but in communities, in schools, in families, and within the entire system fabric, What would you say leaders need to start doing today, start doing differently today?
00:13:50
Speaker 1: Well, they could stop lying. They could stop changing policy on the fly. They could have a little bit more empathy and understanding for small business owners and that we are the backbone of this country and we provide more employment than anybody else. And you've not made it any easier for us. So, look, trust comes from being transparent. And it also comes not from wearing your heart on your sleeve, but authentically thinking about other people and how you can make the world a better place. So having that level of emotional connection. And I'm very concerned about who people are listening to and why. And, you know, whether it be the algorithm feeding people on social media. But, you know, there was a time when you could put an ad on television on a Sunday night and 90% of the population would see it, and that you've launched your product. You know, we used to all watch the Leyland Brothers, which was this very Australian, authentic, outward adventure show. And so there was very uniting, whereas now everybody has individual media, so we do not know the messages that they're getting. So if we think about the leaders in our community, how are they being informed in a broader sense? not necessarily in a linear or myopic sense. And we need that as business owners as well. We think we've listened to one customer, but it's just one opinion. And that's an interesting insight. What did I learn from that? But what is their other view? You know, you can't please all the people all the time. So have a really good understanding of what the key issues for each stakeholder group. Gosh, you've got me on a little bit of a soapbox there, Shane, I'd say. I do get really bereft and upset. that people in government have never, ever sat in a small business's shoes. They just don't know what it's like to put your livelihood on the line every single day. They don't understand. And that we take a risk for that. And, you know, not many business owners I know are getting rich right now.
00:16:00
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. And also refreshing to hear Naomi. As a matter of fact, when it comes to SafeWatch, We not only ensured we had health practitioners have a seat at the table to architect the service, but we also brought in people with lived experience who actually lived it to help architect and design it.
00:16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think as businesses get bigger and bigger, we get a little bit further from the customer. And it's the one thing I say to any leader or director or whatever, just how are you keeping your finger on the pulse? It's not about the research study. It's not about what you're told in reports. It's about how you're getting the vibe of the thing and in terms of a greater straight and sane. So, you know, staying with big ears and deep curiosity is our job as a leader and to always understand that our view is not the only view. So I think that's really, really important. Shane, it sounds like you've got a big piece of work ahead of you and that you have a very important contribution to make to our community and I thank you for your work because you're not there yet and it's going to take ongoing like who would have thought that I'm 25 years in and we've delivered you know more than five million customers to small businesses around Australia you know like I didn't realize that at the what I you know all those years ago it is a marathon but a marathon worth.
00:17:28
Speaker 2: Running absolutely thank you thank you.
00:17:30
Speaker 1: Naomi yeah Thanks so much, Shane, for coming on the show. We'll make sure that we put a link into your website and we look forward to hearing more about your success and how you're supporting our community. Thank you. Fantastic.
00:17:45
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
