WEBVTT
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00:00:11.919Hello and welcome to FoDES the Future of Design and Engineering Software podcast.
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00:00:13.679My name is Roopinder Tara.
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00:00:20.480On the show, we will have guests that will discuss tools and technology that engineers will find interesting and useful.
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00:00:22.399Hi, how's it going?
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00:00:23.679Hi, very good.
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00:00:25.440Lewis, nice to meet you.
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00:00:26.719Nice to meet you.
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00:00:27.359Yeah.
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00:00:30.480Do you mind this being recorded?
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00:00:32.159Oh, yeah, that's great.
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00:00:33.039All right, good.
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00:00:35.119Because then you can be on the podcast.
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00:00:35.920Yeah.
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00:00:37.679Prerequisite there.
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00:00:39.280Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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00:00:40.320Exactly.
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00:00:46.560I'm very I was very anxious to meet you because I tell you, you made it sound like you could make your own.
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00:00:49.359I could I could make my own kernel now.
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00:00:52.159So yeah, it's definitely something you could do.
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00:00:53.359And you've done it.
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00:00:54.240Yeah.
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00:00:55.119You've done it.
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00:00:59.520You've got it, you've got your own geometric geometry kernel that you have created.
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00:01:01.920You used to work in is running right now.
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00:01:03.840You worked in Spatial.
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00:01:04.560Okay.
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00:01:07.439So you're all familiar with kernels.
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00:01:10.239So you just thought, what, I can do this myself?
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00:01:10.879Yeah.
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00:01:16.159So I worked there for about 13 years and I was in RD, and then I was also a Ford deployed engineer.
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00:01:20.400So basically I saw customer implementations, I saw how people work on the product.
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00:01:23.040I saw how people thought about the product and everything.
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00:01:27.680And at some point, I guess I started off like I was doing stuff in AI in February.
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00:01:28.959I was I saw OpenClaw.
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00:01:30.239I'm like, this is incredible.
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00:01:31.519Let me build with it.
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00:01:34.560And one idea I had was let me just try something in CAD.
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00:01:37.599So I was like, let's do a STEP reader with no SDK.
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00:01:38.959I thought that would be simple enough.
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00:01:43.760We should be able to read in the surfaces and kind of understand it and do triangles.
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00:01:45.120That seemed like something.
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00:01:46.959But but like Google couldn't really figure it out.
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00:01:49.519And I even gave it to Claude and Opus couldn't figure it out.
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00:01:51.840Just the face winding wasn't working.
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00:01:58.239So basically, as it went to put the triangles around into the holes and stuff and connect everything, it just wasn't really figuring it out.
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00:02:05.359And I didn't want to look at it because it's look, it's really complicated, UV windings and all a bunch of stuff that's just very mathy.
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00:02:07.439So I kind of set it aside for a while.
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00:02:11.759And then Fable 5 came out and it was just incredible.
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00:02:16.800I gave it that task, which uh it just was able to solve basically.
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00:02:35.599And then on July 14th is when I really was like, let's make a CAD kernel out of this because it's powerful enough to do it, it's solving the bugs, and yeah, like uh the way I'm doing it is I built this this other product, feature board, which is really it's basically what people talk about agents, they talk about workflows and skills.
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00:02:39.360And I took those skills and I said, like I realize there's problems.
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00:02:44.479If you just give it like files that are skills, and you say, here's my huge workflow, it falls apart.
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00:03:01.759So I said, let's make it with OpenClaw, let's like dig into that and actually send like constrained prompts, just send one prompt and then like kind of close it off and do something else and kind of move outside of the chat window and keep track of everything as metadata, basically.
00:03:01.759 -->
00:03:04.960And hopefully that makes sense and it makes a lot more sense if you use it.
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00:03:12.639It's like Jira, but instead of you dragging the task around and having to talk about what you've done, you drag the task and the AI starts working on it.
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00:03:18.000And when it's done, yeah, I'm getting about 10 to 20 percent, right?
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00:03:21.759Because I'm sure I'll get more when I play this back.
00:03:21.759 -->
00:03:26.800I'm a trained engineer, not a developer, but so I know let me ask you to clarify a few things.
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00:03:28.000You mentioned Fable.
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00:03:34.240Now, Fable is an Anthropic model, yes, and Fable is a model released by anthropic.
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00:03:36.240And sure, I don't worry, I can clarify a lot.
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00:03:38.080Feel free to interrupt with questions.
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00:03:39.520That's probably the best way to go.
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00:03:43.840Okay, because it does AI does let you just go so broad and so far and so fast.
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00:03:45.360That's where I've been mentally.
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00:03:50.639Just geometry kernels, you've made up you've made a whole CAD program, a whole solid modeler.
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00:04:00.159Yeah, so there's one end of it is the solid modeler front end that runs in the browser, and so you can just go and it actually runs on your system, not mine, which is nice.
00:04:00.159 -->
00:04:08.879Traditionally, CAD, they're paying a huge cloud premium to do that, but I'm just sending it to you and trusting licensing and stuff like that to do its job.
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00:04:09.199Okay.
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00:04:10.879So there's that side of it.
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00:04:20.560There's also what's called the MCP plugin, and so MCP plugins are it's like a Google Chrome extension, but it's for Claude, it's for cursor, it's for Droc build.
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00:04:29.360All the model providers, they all have something like OpenClaw that you can install, and then it communicates with the AI and comes back and it does work on your computer.
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00:04:34.720So, what this is it helps that the plugin gives it tools that it then uses.
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00:04:37.120So it's a kernel that it can use.
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00:04:42.480So the anthropic AI goes and it you just install the kernel and say, Okay, build me a part.
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00:04:45.279And like the bracket that you posted about.
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00:04:49.439I just put that in with the extension installed and it started to work on it, essentially.
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00:04:50.720Congratulations, by the way.
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00:04:52.800You won the great bracket challenge.
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00:04:55.600I didn't realize it was going on, actually.
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00:04:56.639That's what's kind of surprising.
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00:05:04.079My head has been spinning a little bit since realizing maybe this is actually producing the like one of the better text-to-cad implementations.
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00:05:10.160I'm half joking because I just decided on a whim to give it as the simplest thing I could think of.
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00:05:14.319And then I was like, I did it over the last year and a half.
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00:05:30.560I've been asking CAD to do that, but um, people have invariably failed because there's so much to making a simple part that engineers know, but AI has to guess at, and guessing is not a thing that engineers can tolerate, but but they do it so well.
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00:05:33.279So holes are in the wrong place, thickness is off.
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00:05:39.279I think originally when I had gNucleus, do it, they put a round where they should have been a fillet.
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00:05:54.879So they've since corrected that, but the but the point was that not so much that they could train on brackets, but just like they could think like an engineer thinks you use material that an engineer would use or that yeah, yeah, go ahead.
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00:06:10.560Yeah, I think a lot of people have gone down this route of they want to train like using engineer data on people who have used a modeling kernel, like the modeler, like a SOLIDWORKS or uh Parasolid, and they want to see how did the experts do that, and we'll take that data set and then we'll use that.
00:06:10.560 -->
00:06:14.959And I think that the issue there is there's several like inner layers there.
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00:06:20.720You have the the engineer is using SOLIDWORKS, and maybe they use it right, but they probably don't.
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00:06:26.800There's probably a better way to do it, distribute it amongst the millions of users and that knowledge on the internet and everything.
00:06:26.800 -->
00:06:33.439And then the the actual implementation of the modeler onto the kernel, and everybody using anything has to have a kernel in the background.
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00:06:36.959That implementation can have issues and probably isn't done correctly.
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00:06:50.079Like I've seen AI review of code that basically like AI code reviews at like nine out of 10 because it follows a lot of structure and convention that people don't want to do, and then human written code is like grading it at five.
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00:06:54.560So I know egotistically we all want to be like, I'm the best coder, I'm so good at coding.
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00:06:56.240That's what I thought a few years ago.
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00:07:04.959But at some point with this, I was like, it knows more than me, it knows more of the right things to do, and it's producing higher quality code.
00:07:04.959 -->
00:07:07.759I might not be able to judge it, but it is yeah.
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00:07:11.040So that means a lot to somebody who's professionally coding.
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00:07:24.319Would you say, like most, even like coders in our world, geometry developers, uh geometry kernel developers or CAD developers, are now most of that work is being done by cloud.
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00:07:29.759So anyone I've talked to, I'm suspicious on whether or not the kernels have gone into Fable.
00:07:29.759 -->
00:07:33.839I think there's some moat defense there where they've been hesitant to do that.
00:07:33.839 -->
00:07:39.519I mean, in terms of pace it development, I would say it's obvious, it's obvious who is and isn't using AI.
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00:07:41.600If there's not much development, they're not using it.
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00:07:44.319If all they produced is a connector, they're not using it.
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00:07:50.399Like the MCP implementation was like not, it was not a half day of work to take the kernel.
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00:07:54.240I just said, okay, today we're doing an MCP implementation of the kernel, make it.
00:07:54.240 -->
00:07:58.480And that's kind of all I had to do as far as putting work into my system.
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00:07:59.759So your system, okay.
00:07:59.759 -->
00:08:05.600So I'm a little familiar with MCPs from the the MCP server that Onnshape created.
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00:08:09.360So did I did a little research in an article on them.
00:08:09.360 -->
00:08:20.399But you're saying what the work that OnShape had to do, PTC had to do to make that MCP server, took it took them, they admit took them a little, took them a little while.
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00:08:22.639You said you can do that in a what?
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00:08:23.920Half a day.
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00:08:24.800Half a day.
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00:08:27.120That was how much time we spent on it.
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00:08:29.600Yeah, to get the initial go-around.
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00:08:29.920Yeah.
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00:08:30.639Interesting.
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00:08:31.040Interesting.
00:08:31.279 -->
00:08:39.519I mean, so another another thing that was quick, way faster than I actually expected, is last Friday I was looking at starting 3D PDF.
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00:08:41.120Someone reached out to me about it.
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00:08:43.519I didn't have anything beyond what I had.
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00:08:46.080And I said, let's start 3D PDF.
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00:08:50.399And by that afternoon, I had 3D PDFs written out that would load up in Adobe Acrobat.
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00:08:51.519That's amazing.
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00:08:52.879Okay, that's really amazing.
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00:08:55.360Now, okay, now you've got a deep background in CAD.
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00:09:00.639And by the way, when I talked uh at depth, and you use I think you saw this.
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00:09:08.960We had Peggy Xia on a show, and yeah, she's got tons and tons of CAD experience, lots, and so does her team.
00:09:08.960 -->
00:09:10.399A lot of her team is sorry, CAD.
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00:09:10.960You do too.
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00:09:12.159You have a lot of CAD experience.
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00:09:15.840So yeah, and also my wife was the director of product at Spatial.
00:09:16.240 -->
00:09:16.799Oh, really?
00:09:16.960 -->
00:09:17.600Oh yeah.
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00:09:18.000Okay.
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00:09:20.159That's a fun little family.
00:09:20.399 -->
00:09:21.759Yeah, little CAD family.
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00:09:25.039We tried to get out of the CAD business almost, and then it pulled us back in.
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00:09:29.679Is I know this is this is the most exciting time to be in CAD with all this that's going on.
00:09:30.879 -->
00:09:32.960Manufacturing, people want to build stuff finally.
00:09:32.960 -->
00:09:40.240There really was this let's not build stuff that maybe we're building too much, and now it's like, can we do drones, flying cars, boats?
00:09:40.240 -->
00:09:41.360There's just so much.
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00:09:43.279The robotic side is really cool.
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00:09:44.879Yeah, oh, robots are cool.
00:09:44.879 -->
00:09:47.679Look at so supersonic planes.
00:09:47.679 -->
00:09:55.039You have small companies now that are making supersonic planes, and that used to be oh yeah, Boeing could do that, or Lockheed could do that.
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00:09:58.559Now 10 men, I think Boom is more than 10 men.
00:09:59.519 -->
00:10:07.039But so I actually have an interesting demo about something Boom has posted on Twitter that I can show you because I was gonna bring up Boom Supersonic.
00:10:07.279 -->
00:10:07.919Can you do that?
00:10:08.399 -->
00:10:09.519Yeah, you want to see it?
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00:10:10.960Yeah, dude.
00:10:11.360 -->
00:10:13.600All right, let's just do this screen.
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00:10:16.559Is this work you're doing for Boom, or you just took it upon yourself?
00:10:16.879 -->
00:10:24.080No, so I just saw a Twitter post that Blake Scholl had made where he posted a picture of a variable stator vein ring.
00:10:24.080 -->
00:10:26.559I didn't know what that was until I saw his picture.
00:10:26.559 -->
00:10:27.360It just looked cool.
00:10:27.360 -->
00:10:31.279Okay, essentially, it was a giant part that's part of the power plant.
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00:10:34.159They're building power plant stuff now instead of supersonic planes.
00:10:34.159 -->
00:10:40.159And so I just took a screenshot of what he had posted and looked around and saw did you have other screenshots?
00:10:40.159 -->
00:10:41.440I think I got four.
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00:10:42.080Okay.
00:10:42.080 -->
00:10:43.919So but well, tell me this.
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00:10:45.200That's a little bit of a surprise.
00:10:45.200 -->
00:10:47.840Are they not going after the supersonic plane anymore?
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00:10:50.879No, they're building power, they're building power turbines.
00:10:51.039 -->
00:10:51.440Oh, okay.
00:10:51.600 -->
00:11:00.159Power turbines they've swapped because their the jet engine turbine is so similar to a natural gas turbine, they've swapped entirely to just go after money.
00:11:00.159 -->
00:11:05.919And because they have a lot of designs, although I think now they should probably reconsider how much they're posting on Twitter.
00:11:05.919 -->
00:11:12.159They probably didn't know it's possible to produce a design of their part from what he's posted, which I don't think anybody knew.
00:11:12.159 -->
00:11:13.759I didn't know until I tried it.
00:11:13.759 -->
00:11:19.039Um so it maybe took 30, 45 minutes to actually produce this, but it's all the way to animated.
00:11:19.759 -->
00:11:21.360What did you give them to make this?
00:11:21.360 -->
00:11:23.360What did you give the your modeler?
00:11:23.679 -->
00:11:26.320I told it here are four screenshots of something.
00:11:26.320 -->
00:11:30.320I don't know what it is, I want it modeled and I want it realistic.
00:11:30.320 -->
00:11:35.759So figure out what it is, figure out what that means, and realistically model it.
00:11:36.000 -->
00:11:36.480That's it.
00:11:36.720 -->
00:11:37.519That's it.
00:11:37.519 -->
00:11:42.320Four screenshots, four screenshots, and it's available as a STEP file.
00:11:42.320 -->
00:11:46.799You can download it as GLBs, but also as a STEP assembly.
00:11:47.039 -->
00:11:50.480So this is it looks like it's a working CAD model.
00:11:50.480 -->
00:11:51.919You could you could move the veins.
00:11:51.919 -->
00:11:57.519This is not, is this a CAD video, or is this this is just a GLB animation, but it's made with the CAD model.
00:11:58.639 -->
00:12:04.080You can, however, if you load up a STEP file that enables you to move it all together, it does need to be rigged together to not collide.
00:12:04.080 -->
00:12:14.000But yeah, so we're able to take a STEP model, create the full model in STEP, and then take the bodies outside of that, animate them, do collision detection, that sort of stuff.
00:12:14.000 -->
00:12:15.039Okay.
00:12:15.519 -->
00:12:21.600You can do this because you're a superhuman and you're a developer and you've got all these skills.
00:12:22.080 -->
00:12:29.039No, just because of so just from this the MCP plugin and the screenshots.
00:12:29.039 -->
00:12:30.240That's it.
00:12:31.200 -->
00:12:32.559Okay, make it sound easy.
00:12:32.559 -->
00:12:34.320I still have a skeptical.
00:12:34.320 -->
00:12:37.279Do I have to install the MCP plugin myself?
00:12:37.840 -->
00:12:39.679Yeah, so you just install it in the Cloud.
00:12:39.679 -->
00:12:40.000Okay.
00:12:40.000 -->
00:12:44.480And then say what you want to want to design or do, or something.
00:12:44.480 -->
00:12:54.320We could do something right now if you have an idea of if you want to send me a file or just have me prompt something in the background and I can pull it out of the oven like Martha Stewart at some point.
00:12:54.320 -->
00:12:54.879It's ready.
00:12:55.279 -->
00:12:59.039All right, I'll give you something I just gave it to do and SketchUp data.
00:12:59.039 -->
00:13:03.200Okay, I won't tell you what I think of it yet, but okay.
00:13:03.360 -->
00:13:08.960So let me throw it into Claude real quick with my screen share off, and I'll assume put an end of the chat there.
00:13:09.200 -->
00:13:10.480All right, so I'll share my screen.
00:13:10.480 -->
00:13:12.240Could you do anything with that, Lewis?
00:13:12.639 -->
00:13:13.840Well, let's find out.
00:13:14.080 -->
00:13:14.399Okay.
00:13:14.639 -->
00:13:16.320I think what's kind of crazy.
00:13:16.320 -->
00:13:18.559So have you used Fable 5.1?
00:13:18.879 -->
00:13:19.200Yeah.
00:13:19.440 -->
00:13:24.480So it just came out so quickly, and I basically turned around and have been just slamming stuff into it.
00:13:24.480 -->
00:13:32.720And it's I'm not sure how much better it's made things or how much better it is yet, but it gives me a lot of hope to see just how well it's doing everything.
00:13:33.440 -->
00:13:36.480Oh, is it working through the steps right now or is it done?
00:13:36.799 -->
00:13:37.519It's working through it.
00:13:37.519 -->
00:13:38.240I'll take a little bit.
00:13:38.240 -->
00:13:40.320I think mainly cable during the day takes a while.
00:13:40.559 -->
00:13:43.679Sorry, sorry to use up so much of your tokens on this window.
00:13:44.000 -->
00:13:53.039No, I finally figured out yeah, just how to really get more tokens in a way that is not completely breaking the bank, but I also have to do usage and stuff.
00:13:53.440 -->
00:13:53.679Okay.
00:13:53.679 -->
00:13:57.039Are you funding this or are you running on are you running on revenue?
00:13:57.360 -->
00:14:00.879So we're not running on revenue yet, but we're just in our seed round.
00:14:00.879 -->
00:14:13.519But I'm I'm really excited to I really want customer data and customer issues because I think we've got the leverage and everything set up to just just work bugs, work tickets, and that's not something that CAD engineers are used to.
00:14:13.519 -->
00:14:17.759You're used to waiting really long time periods to get your bugs fixed.
00:14:17.919 -->
00:14:18.080Yeah.
00:14:18.480 -->
00:14:26.000There's a runaround going on in the CAD industry for a while now, where somebody will say, I'll fix your bug, look at you to sign two years later, it is still not done.
00:14:26.000 -->
00:14:28.399And you're like, what is it gonna take?
00:14:28.399 -->
00:14:30.159And the answer is it's maybe never gonna happen.
00:14:30.159 -->
00:14:31.759Something else, something came up.
00:14:31.759 -->
00:14:35.120And then something else came up, which is other money.
00:14:35.360 -->
00:14:35.759You know what?
00:14:35.759 -->
00:14:39.840I'm so I'm starting to do a little experimenting with Canva.
00:14:39.840 -->
00:14:41.039I'm sure you've heard of Canva.
00:14:41.039 -->
00:14:46.000So and what I see the desk, but wait, let me finish this quick thing about Canva.
00:14:46.000 -->
00:14:55.679Yeah, Canva is the second, they say the second biggest uh you user of AI, it's a second biggest website devoted to AI, Canva.
00:14:55.679 -->
00:14:57.759And have you used its graphic program?
00:14:57.759 -->
00:14:59.360No, I haven't.
00:14:59.360 -->
00:15:00.799Oh, you gotta try it.
00:15:00.799 -->
00:15:11.440And and you can do everything Photoshop does, and maybe even more, but it's remarkably easy to use, it's online, and it just does wonders with AI.
00:15:11.440 -->
00:15:28.799And I'm thinking of getting rid of my Adobe, my my whole Adobe stack because yeah, my god, Canva is great, and that's what I'm hoping to happen with CAD because it's just I could ask Canva in plain English to make something, and it will.
00:15:29.039 -->
00:15:39.759Yeah, that's some of the features I baked in the feature board to start with were like things like Photoshop, essentially, but it's all kind of metadata of your project and everything you're working on for a podcast.
00:15:39.759 -->
00:15:45.679It'd be like we have this new guest, that would be like a ticket or something, and you'd work it or produce um media for it.
00:15:45.679 -->
00:15:50.879It was a way to integrate all that into like gallery, a way to edit the media in place and stuff.
00:15:50.879 -->
00:15:58.960But yeah, so I'm not surprised people are doing that and seeing a lot of success with it because the new model, like you powered up with the model, but then you're able to kind of do more.
00:15:59.279 -->
00:15:59.679All right.
00:15:59.679 -->
00:16:01.279Now back to this.
00:16:01.279 -->
00:16:03.039Lewis, you're a genius.
00:16:03.039 -->
00:16:04.000Look at this.
00:16:04.000 -->
00:16:07.519This is a edit, this is an editable, is it a STEP file?
00:16:07.759 -->
00:16:08.799Yeah, it's a STEP file.
00:16:09.039 -->
00:16:12.720Okay, but right away you did what SketchUp couldn't do.
00:16:12.720 -->
00:16:16.799SketchUp generated more or less a 3D model of that.
00:16:16.799 -->
00:16:21.840I'll call it a wavy or organic type desk shape, and you made it straight.
00:16:21.840 -->
00:16:24.960You made it like I would make a desk in my workshop.
00:16:24.960 -->
00:16:30.320This is like what it would look like, not some crazy shape, wavy form, no straight edges.
00:16:30.320 -->
00:16:32.720So this is an editable file.
00:16:32.720 -->
00:16:36.399I could bring it into my CAD program and it'd be an editable file.
00:16:36.720 -->
00:16:37.120Yeah.
00:16:37.120 -->
00:16:39.200And it's giving me a viewer too.
00:16:39.200 -->
00:16:40.559See real quick.
00:16:40.559 -->
00:16:43.279Yep, STEP file, drafting desk.step.
00:16:43.440 -->
00:16:44.320Can you send it to me?
00:16:44.639 -->
00:16:44.879Yeah.
00:16:44.879 -->
00:16:46.720Let me drag it into the chat.
00:16:46.960 -->
00:16:47.120Okay.
00:16:47.440 -->
00:16:48.639Meeting controls.
00:16:48.639 -->
00:16:49.200Oh no.
00:16:49.200 -->
00:16:49.440Okay.
00:16:49.440 -->
00:16:56.080And now I'll say with the specifically with this kind of stuff, I haven't gone towards this kind of assembly stuff.
00:16:56.080 -->
00:16:59.200And there is some amount of, I feel like right now, sheet metal.
00:16:59.200 -->
00:17:03.039I was really glad that you had a bracket because sheet metal stuff is something I've been work like looking at.
00:17:03.039 -->
00:17:16.559And there is some amount of it'll work better the more I've actually pointed it at, like, for example, this sort of assembly stuff, and and in terms of that there is part of the tool that's a database of manufacturing information.
00:17:16.559 -->
00:17:22.079And I don't, I literally haven't, I just haven't gone and looked for let's put a table together, that sort of stuff yet.
00:17:22.079 -->
00:17:27.200Very specific in terms of the market segments that I've gone and populated that database of information of.
00:17:27.359 -->
00:17:29.119But it's something that I shouldn't.
00:17:29.119 -->
00:17:31.599I'm sure you couldn't have traded on desks.
00:17:31.920 -->
00:17:35.759You couldn't have possibly said no, I didn't, but I'm saying it.
00:17:35.759 -->
00:17:37.920I think I could get a better result if I did.
00:17:37.920 -->
00:17:39.519Like I said, go ahead.
00:17:39.519 -->
00:17:41.920Let's make it more realistic.
00:17:42.240 -->
00:17:43.440It's pretty realistic.
00:17:43.440 -->
00:17:43.920Okay.
00:17:43.920 -->
00:17:45.279There's some problems.
00:17:45.279 -->
00:17:46.559Like that the stable.
00:17:46.880 -->
00:17:50.319Yeah, we can start a few clashing issues and stuff.
00:17:50.319 -->
00:17:50.640Yeah.
00:17:50.640 -->
00:17:56.720But as far as an initial go-around, now one thing I'm I'll as I'm telling it, be more realistic about what you're doing.
00:17:56.720 -->
00:18:20.720So there's some amount of like design for manufacturing is really it's really valuable that it's been put so close to the CAD thing, like in terms of we're not gonna show up at a sheet metal company or something, or whoever's making this with some with a design like this that you beforehand go and you can enter some of the information about how you're gonna try to make it, yeah, and actually get an increased result.
00:18:20.960 -->
00:18:22.480Yeah, I'm blown away.
00:18:22.480 -->
00:18:23.599This is pretty good.
00:18:23.599 -->
00:18:26.799This is already better than what I've seen so far.
00:18:26.799 -->
00:18:28.160And I've seen a few things.
00:18:28.160 -->
00:18:29.920I wouldn't say I'm covering them all.
00:18:29.920 -->
00:18:33.839There's a lot going on in this space, but we've got to say that's really good.
00:18:33.920 -->
00:18:35.200I wasn't quite even sure.
00:18:35.200 -->
00:18:40.319It's cool to me because TextaCat is just it's just one of the things we're doing, essentially.
00:18:40.559 -->
00:18:49.279Yeah, no, I'm sure there's still, yeah, like you said, there could be improvements made because if I a woodworker making this would see uh it doesn't, it's not complete.
00:18:49.279 -->
00:18:54.240I don't know whether it hasn't dogtailed my drawers, for example, or things like that.
00:18:54.400 -->
00:19:00.160It doesn't may not have the support hundredth, the t ability that's but we haven't booleaned it yet.
00:19:00.720 -->
00:19:03.920Well, look, you got a support in there, you got a support in the back.
00:19:03.920 -->
00:19:05.519How did it know to do that?
00:19:05.519 -->
00:19:07.839That's not even shown in the sketch.
00:19:08.079 -->
00:19:11.359Yeah, I said other free floating stuff is all I said.
00:19:11.359 -->
00:19:13.039Oh stuff is free floating.
00:19:13.039 -->
00:19:17.279So understood from that stuff is free floating to okay, okay, yeah.
00:19:17.440 -->
00:19:19.839Okay, that way you sent it to me so I can play with it.
00:19:19.839 -->
00:19:21.440What format is it in?
00:19:21.440 -->
00:19:22.480It's in step.
00:19:22.799 -->
00:19:25.119So STEP's kind of like the need that I'm using.
00:19:25.119 -->
00:19:36.960And I'm I don't know, I'm thinking that STEP AP242 and STEP XML are going to become formats that everybody uses because you don't want the vendor lock in and you're gonna be getting away from the the existing proprietary stuff.
00:19:36.960 -->
00:19:41.039And it'll be pretty easy to just kind of go to something that you know everyone else will be able to read.
00:19:41.440 -->
00:19:42.319What else you got?
00:19:42.559 -->
00:19:49.680So I guess the why, though, for this is kind of interesting, is a lot of people would say you can't make your own kernel because of the customer data.
00:19:49.680 -->
00:19:50.480Like, how are you?
00:19:50.480 -->
00:19:53.039It's all intellectually property, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:19:53.039 -->
00:20:01.920But the reason I kind of went for the MCP was actually to generate test data for the kernel, just like AI car players are doing for self-driving.
00:20:01.920 -->
00:20:07.599They want synthetic terraining data because the car in the center of the road driving perfectly is useless data.
00:20:07.599 -->
00:20:09.279It's just totally useless data.
00:20:09.279 -->
00:20:15.359And what really is important is if somebody's about to step out into the street, that data is very valuable and there's very little of it.
00:20:15.359 -->
00:20:24.400So they've come up with generate the data, take a normal frame and insert an elephant about to enter the roadway and see what it does on that data.
00:20:24.400 -->
00:20:25.279Does it drive better?
00:20:25.279 -->
00:20:26.000And it does.
00:20:26.240 -->
00:20:31.519So the advantage, of course, is you could generate a lot more images than you could ever do in real life.
00:20:32.079 -->
00:20:40.319Yeah, that their training set just has they call it the fat tail, but that they just have so few of these rare events that they're not gonna really be able to train for it.
00:20:40.319 -->
00:20:44.160But they want a car that can handle all the rare events that could happen.
00:20:44.400 -->
00:20:49.440All the all the edge cases are not there, and those are the ones that are gonna cause you disaster.
00:20:49.759 -->
00:20:50.240Yeah.
00:20:50.240 -->
00:20:53.279And so that was the idea behind why to do this.
00:20:53.279 -->
00:20:55.119And let's see here, what else?
00:20:55.440 -->
00:20:56.319So you did that?
00:20:56.319 -->
00:20:59.359You did it just generated a whole bunch of models aesthetically?
00:20:59.920 -->
00:21:02.319Yeah, and as it generates it, it even logs bugs.
00:21:02.319 -->
00:21:12.160So when making that mainstator ring uh model, it was like I'm having trouble piercing holes and stuff, and it comes up with extremely detailed reasons to log bugs.
00:21:12.319 -->
00:21:14.640That's that's one of the let me see if I got this right.
00:21:14.640 -->
00:21:22.240You create you did it, you create an MCP that allows you to make lots of different types of models using what's CAD program?
00:21:22.240 -->
00:21:25.519Yeah, using your CAD program, yeah, using mine.
00:21:25.519 -->
00:21:32.400Okay, all right, and then it just makes all these models, like desks or brackets or whatever, cars or motors, what have you.
00:21:32.400 -->
00:21:35.599And and yeah, and then you use that to train trade.
00:21:36.000 -->
00:21:38.240Uh to train it, but just to log bugs and then work the bug.
00:21:38.240 -->
00:21:46.880So when it logs it tried to work it, it it was like one thing that's interesting is it'll try to use my kernel and I have an incomplete kernel, it's still able to do stuff.
00:21:46.880 -->
00:21:51.119So it it tries out functions and it has very nice I've told it to be really nice.
00:21:51.119 -->
00:21:52.640It's going to be debugging itself.
00:21:52.640 -->
00:21:56.160Don't write really good debugging information that helps you out.
00:21:56.160 -->
00:21:59.680Then it tries to do it, it's a failure.
00:21:59.680 -->
00:22:03.759It tries to route around it and it's able to seemingly model around those failures.
00:22:04.640 -->
00:22:05.039Yeah.
00:22:05.039 -->
00:22:06.000Okay.
00:22:06.720 -->
00:22:12.400So here's our super realistic again where I just said, let's make it super realistic, get some pictures of some desks.
00:22:12.400 -->
00:22:17.119And now we have supports with looks like a hydraulic sort of system there.
00:22:17.119 -->
00:22:23.920And we really figured out a way to attach the drawer here.
00:22:24.240 -->
00:22:27.359How did it get the uh outer dimensions?
00:22:27.359 -->
00:22:29.359How did it make it dimensions?
00:22:29.440 -->
00:22:29.680Yeah.
00:22:29.839 -->
00:22:31.200I mean, or is it dimensions?
00:22:31.200 -->
00:22:33.519It's gonna have dimensions.
00:22:33.519 -->
00:22:39.359I think because I've told it realistic, it's probably gonna be it looks like 400 by 500 millimeters on the drawers.
00:22:39.359 -->
00:22:42.160So that sounds pretty realistic.
00:22:42.480 -->
00:22:43.279Yeah, yeah.
00:22:43.279 -->
00:22:47.039Is one of the limitations it's making prismatic shapes only?
00:22:47.039 -->
00:22:49.200Because that's the what the modeler does.
00:22:49.680 -->
00:22:54.079No, it we've got NURBs and tolerance shapes and everything going on.
00:22:54.079 -->
00:23:01.519Now, this is this shape, obviously, is a little whatever, but the scoops in the veins, for example, those are non-uniform surfaces.
00:23:01.920 -->
00:23:03.279Okay, okay.
00:23:03.279 -->
00:23:04.720How does it work?
00:23:04.720 -->
00:23:10.240Has your modeler worked real okay enough on the rounds and fillets?
00:23:10.240 -->
00:23:12.079Because that's always the problem.
00:23:12.799 -->
00:23:14.240Filleting has been interesting.
00:23:14.240 -->
00:23:18.559I was able to get a fillet showcase basically going or a blend showcase.
00:23:18.559 -->
00:23:19.599A bunch of different stuff.
00:23:19.599 -->
00:23:23.440There's law-defined blends, there's some C1, C2 continuity.
00:23:23.440 -->
00:23:26.160I am basically working through the issues on it.
00:23:26.160 -->
00:23:30.160Essentially, that was one of the first benchmarks, even I selected for the kernel.
00:23:30.160 -->
00:23:37.599Is let's see if we can get past open cascade and blends, essentially, and at a single customer in mind of where blends are an issue.
00:23:37.599 -->
00:23:47.440For them, it was variable radius blends, and they hit there's something that so a proprietary kernel out of the box, if you just give it a cube and say blend variable radius blend these cubes, it won't work.
00:23:47.440 -->
00:23:56.799You have to write the order in which the cubes are blended, the edges are blended, you have to do some thinking yourself, you have to make sure you're doing the same thing that every other kernel does.
00:23:56.799 -->
00:24:05.200So there's there's stuff like that where blends there's blending as far as what it means in the background of the kernel, and then there's also your implementation of blending.
00:24:05.200 -->
00:24:08.640But I was able to get a huge portion of that basically completed.
00:24:08.640 -->
00:24:15.440So, yeah, there's really complicated blending scenarios that we're able to handle, and we're just working through the basically the group of them.
00:24:15.440 -->
00:24:18.400You can build your own thing.
00:24:18.400 -->
00:24:20.319Maybe don't even need my thing now.
00:24:20.319 -->
00:24:23.759I'm hoping that I can get and everyone else is struggling with this.
00:24:23.759 -->
00:24:24.559I figured it out.
00:24:24.559 -->
00:24:27.359Maybe it's just easier to use my thing and get on to your thing.
00:24:27.359 -->
00:24:29.279So I've set my pricing really low.
00:24:29.279 -->
00:24:32.960It's so for this tool right now, you can use it, you can license it right now.
00:24:32.960 -->
00:24:36.960It's $200 a year, and I think that's probably going to be the final licensing.
00:24:36.960 -->
00:24:43.200And then the SDK component itself, where you can make your own application, I'm pricing at about $10,000 a year with no royalties.
00:24:43.200 -->
00:24:46.799So people are currently paying five, six, seven figures for this song.
00:24:46.799 -->
00:24:49.440I think they have millions of reasons to switch.
00:24:49.440 -->
00:24:52.160And I can definitely get all their bugs done.
00:24:52.160 -->
00:24:53.359That's no question to me.
00:24:53.359 -->
00:24:54.720This is where we're at today.
00:24:54.720 -->
00:24:56.720I started this on July 14th.
00:24:56.720 -->
00:24:59.359Really, it was a STEP reader on July 14th.
00:24:59.359 -->
00:24:59.599Yeah.
00:24:59.599 -->
00:25:05.759And to give you some other, and I know I've at the start we said slow down, and I know we're just we're picking speed right back up.
00:25:06.079 -->
00:25:09.759I think with the podcast, I could play it back at 0.7 speed.
00:25:09.839 -->
00:25:15.920So that on GitHub in July we had I had about 1300 commits, I think.
00:25:15.920 -->
00:25:19.680About 12127, something like that.
00:25:19.680 -->
00:25:22.880This month in August, or not in August, in September.
00:25:22.880 -->
00:25:26.319So in the last three days, we're up to 1400 commits.
00:25:26.319 -->
00:25:31.440So in three days, we've done more than we did in the entire month of July.
00:25:31.440 -->
00:25:33.680What's a commit what's a commit?
00:25:33.680 -->
00:25:38.880A commit is basically that we've said here's a bunch of code, it solves a problem.
00:25:38.880 -->
00:25:41.519There's a detailed description and list of the problem.
00:25:41.519 -->
00:25:44.480So it's basically like a ticket solved.
00:25:44.480 -->
00:25:52.319And I would say that's probably more in a couple days than most traditional companies did all year with financial engineers.
00:25:52.319 -->
00:25:55.359Obviously, look at what we're producing, but yeah.
00:25:55.839 -->
00:25:56.480Yeah.
00:25:56.480 -->
00:26:01.440All right, so what see what you've done and see what other companies do.
00:26:01.440 -->
00:26:11.519And I've been bad companies for dragging their feet on AI because I think all that AI can do, all what engineers want AI to do, it's not doing.
00:26:11.519 -->
00:26:14.640And now after hearing this, I think you would agree.
00:26:14.880 -->
00:26:23.119Yeah, I think they're all somehow they've got thousands and thousands of engineers, but there is something like people don't want to automate their own jobs away.
00:26:23.119 -->
00:26:27.599They don't have any equity in the work they're doing, and the work they're doing will destroy their job.
00:26:27.599 -->
00:26:31.519How hard how it's kind of like the billionaire in the bunker at the end of the world.
00:26:31.519 -->
00:26:34.559Well, you're paying people, but money doesn't mean anything anymore.
00:26:34.559 -->
00:26:45.279So it's very easy for everyone to throw you out because you you've assembled all these people who contribute so much, and you contribute nothing except getting the whole situation together.
00:26:46.720 -->
00:26:48.400Oh, I see I recognize the bracket.
00:26:49.039 -->
00:26:53.599So I took your bracket and I just basically I said do just a quick manufacturing check.
00:26:53.759 -->
00:26:54.000Okay.
00:26:54.640 -->
00:27:28.079And it basically what it will do, it's kind of that design for manufacturing thing I was talking about, uh, where it goes through, looks at error, creates errors and warnings, does a few stages, does volume thickness, uh wall thickness, volume checks, a bunch of other stuff, and then generates technical drawings and kind of discusses like the bounty box of the thing, the volume, the surface area you here have here, but some of the dimensions we were discussing, and then actually creates full-on technical drawings here that would include a bill of materials on maybe different things so that you can just send this to a machine shop.
00:27:28.079 -->
00:27:36.559There's kind of the extension of this, the one thing I'm thinking about is essentially wiring into the MCP a connection to certain quoting tools right now.
00:27:36.559 -->
00:27:49.599So that essentially there's certain manufacturers that right now they're like sheet metal manufacturers, and they give you the option to give them a part and manufacture it, but they give you 10 pages of documents to produce a part that they can manufacture.
00:27:49.599 -->
00:27:52.640And what this can do is it can do all those checks.
00:27:52.640 -->
00:27:57.759And that's what we did is we took the 10 pages, we took our stuff, and we said, make it work together.
00:27:57.759 -->
00:28:15.519And so you can basically take like when I say that shortening stuff, you can go all the way to manufacture in terms of you can have a design that you want to look at, and you can have an approved manufacturer, and then you can even have a quote from that manufacturer, and then you could even take that quote and decide, oh, that's too much money.
00:28:15.519 -->
00:28:17.279Let me try to design.
00:28:17.279 -->
00:28:19.279We can even angle for a lower quote.
00:28:19.279 -->
00:28:32.960People talk about designing for simulation, but we could design for the right final thing, which is problem solved for the cheapest cost possible, given safety constraints, how much, how many nines you want in terms of safety reliability.
00:28:33.200 -->
00:28:44.720It knows how to make a bracket based on manufacturing principles, like what people would expect in sheet metal, like one bend, yeah, what one thickness bends and or one and a half thickness or that kind of thing.
00:28:44.720 -->
00:28:46.559It can make a drawing out of it.
00:28:46.559 -->
00:28:54.000It's making a lot of assumptions, correct assumptions, close to correct, at least visually.
00:28:54.000 -->
00:29:05.599How if it's does it make any does it go as far as I need if it's a two inch by two inch bracket, does it know that it could I have to use number eight screws or something like that?
00:29:05.599 -->
00:29:07.039Or does it do so?
00:29:07.119 -->
00:29:08.400I have been thinking about that.
00:29:08.400 -->
00:29:19.680I just thinking of the desk, like on this call, I've been thinking I should put in some stuff about how we connect stuff because I haven't even asked it to go make sure it has a real connection that is physically could support it.
00:29:19.680 -->
00:29:36.640But I think that information is pretty small, like what you just described, because it it depends on materials, like we have a metal bracket mounted into metal versus concrete versus wood, and you know what whatever we're trying to design for determines the size of the screws, the size of the holes, because all that stuff.
00:29:36.799 -->
00:29:45.119So I think that's going to be standard holes for the screw that's appropriate for that, which is like any in engineering intern would know that.
00:29:45.119 -->
00:29:46.480Almost, almost.
00:29:46.480 -->
00:29:48.640I I don't uh no, I went too far there.
00:29:48.640 -->
00:29:52.960An intern wouldn't know that, but an intern would pick it up on the job fairly quickly.
00:29:52.960 -->
00:29:57.279This but AI is not even close to being there yet.
00:29:57.279 -->
00:30:05.279So I'm thinking that that is something I think we mentioned engineers expectations of AI before.
00:30:05.279 -->
00:30:12.640They want AI to be at least as smart as their as a smart intern, uh, and learn as fast as an intern would.
00:30:12.640 -->
00:30:17.680But I don't see until now, I don't even see an AI do that.
00:30:17.680 -->
00:30:20.160Yeah, don't learn that quickly.
00:30:20.160 -->
00:30:24.240So is it is your sort of next STEP is the next level of detail, perhaps?
00:30:24.240 -->
00:30:28.720If it's furniture, then it needs this kind of joint or rabbeters and stuff.
00:30:28.960 -->
00:30:31.519I think that wasn't there's like assemblies in general.
00:30:31.519 -->
00:30:42.000I haven't gotten to that point in terms I do have assembly stuff, but in terms of simulating an assembly, that's one part of it that I know people aren't doing because I've put together too many children's toys in the last few years.
00:30:42.000 -->
00:30:44.799And I have really big hands, which doesn't help me with anything.
00:30:44.799 -->
00:30:47.599I just it sometimes I get stuff where it's just impossible.
00:30:47.599 -->
00:30:49.599Yeah, and now I know too.
00:30:49.599 -->
00:31:05.119Like they oh, they designed it and they didn't sweep it around and stuff, and I can tell I could have designed something that but yeah, there's some amount of that I think it would just be a another kind of add-on database as well of sort of faster information as far as when we have materials, this is what we do.
00:31:05.119 -->
00:31:12.160If we don't have material information, here's a good standard for just everything that you might be doing and hope.
00:31:12.319 -->
00:31:18.640But you mentioned children's toys, but I wonder if you could trade it on all the IKEA assembly instructions.
00:31:19.119 -->
00:31:21.519That would be something we need robots to do that.
00:31:21.759 -->
00:31:22.400Yeah, yeah.
00:31:22.400 -->
00:31:25.440But this stuff is IKEA stuff is, I think, very well designed.
00:31:25.440 -->
00:31:31.519Shoddy materials, the designs are really good and they're quick assembly, relatively quick, I should say.
00:31:31.519 -->
00:31:33.119But yeah, something like that.
00:31:33.119 -->
00:31:42.559There's all there's always manuals available on how to service machine parts or machine products, machine parts that go into products that are featured.
00:31:42.559 -->
00:31:44.640You could always get help from there.
00:31:44.640 -->
00:31:55.599So I always want to question CAD people who say we we can't work, there's not enough model data to do what, not enough model data to do what you want, Rapinder.
00:31:55.599 -->
00:31:59.759Because I'm always asking them, hey, why can't I why can't I have it make me a motor?
00:31:59.759 -->
00:32:02.640Why can why can't I make a electrify a car, for example?
00:32:02.640 -->
00:32:05.200And they go, oh, no, there's not enough data.
00:32:05.200 -->
00:32:11.200And I always think, oh, but there is MSC 3D warehouse, has a million parts in it.
00:32:11.359 -->
00:32:11.599Yeah.
00:32:11.759 -->
00:32:11.920Yeah.
00:32:11.920 -->
00:32:19.680Solidworks has its own part library that you is fairly public, I would say, not exactly public, but I mean successful.
00:32:19.680 -->
00:32:24.480There's tons and tons of parts and assemblies out there to train on.
00:32:24.480 -->
00:32:30.240You don't have to use your all your general, generally your entire customer database.
00:32:30.240 -->
00:32:32.160I think there's enough stuff out there.
00:32:32.160 -->
00:32:33.920What do you think about that?
00:32:34.319 -->
00:32:38.079Yeah, that's some of the things you mentioned are sources of data that I've been using.
00:32:38.079 -->
00:32:38.559Okay.
00:32:38.559 -->
00:32:41.759I don't want to get too specific because then everyone else can go grab them.
00:32:41.759 -->
00:32:43.440But manuals are something I've thought about.
00:32:43.440 -->
00:32:46.160That there's a lot of stuff that is old and people don't care about.
00:32:46.160 -->
00:32:49.279That's who cares how you assemble a Ford Pento these days.
00:32:49.279 -->
00:32:57.200The repair manual people scanned and put somewhere and you write if you want to get information out of it about at least what was something that exists.
00:32:57.200 -->
00:33:02.160That's one when they say there's no data, everything around you is a real manufactured part.
00:33:02.400 -->
00:33:02.640Yeah.
00:33:02.880 -->
00:33:04.640That should be able to get you a manufacturable part.
00:33:04.960 -->
00:33:06.720I'll give you an example from my personal history.
00:33:06.720 -->
00:33:13.839So when I got out of school, I knew everything about engineering theory, and I knew nothing about production or machining.
00:33:13.839 -->
00:33:20.400So it was a real challenge for me to figure out how to put even the simplest product together because I knew nothing about.
00:33:20.400 -->
00:33:24.640We use captive fasteners, for example, a lot of our a lot of our products.
00:33:24.640 -->
00:33:34.960And I knew I didn't teach her about that in school, and they didn't teach you about what gets braised, what gets welded, when you use sheet metal, what soft, what standard hardware it was, even.
00:33:34.960 -->
00:33:36.559I didn't even know any of that.
00:33:36.559 -->
00:33:38.240So how did I learn?
00:33:38.240 -->
00:33:41.759I got as many product catalogs as I possibly could.
00:33:41.759 -->
00:33:45.680The mailroom people were tired of how much mail I would get.
00:33:45.680 -->
00:33:48.559Back then, it was you fill out those little bingo cards.
00:33:48.559 -->
00:33:49.839You're too young to remember this.
00:33:49.839 -->
00:33:57.200You fill out these cards and they circle the number, and then the magazine will know to send you their product literature.
00:33:57.200 -->
00:33:59.680So I would get stacks and stacks of product literature.
00:33:59.680 -->
00:34:04.640I would go through the Tom Kat Thomas catalogs, just look at what exists out there.
00:34:04.640 -->
00:34:09.199And that's all information that now can be scanned or is already digital.
00:34:09.199 -->
00:34:16.239So AI could AI is wonderful at learning, scan, learning, taking in all this data, remembering where it is, processing it.
00:34:16.239 -->
00:34:23.199So I think that engineering intern that I spoke of before could be that AI just it has now so much more to deal with.
00:34:23.199 -->
00:34:30.480The only information it can take in is what I call Japanese woodworking style.
00:34:30.480 -->
00:34:34.559In Japan, when you learn woodworking, nobody tells you anything.
00:34:34.559 -->
00:34:41.440You spend the first year sweeping the floors for sawdust, and you learn by osmosis.
00:34:41.440 -->
00:34:43.840You learn by watching and observing.
00:34:43.840 -->
00:34:45.840And okay, AI can't get that.
00:34:45.840 -->
00:34:49.519We'll never be able to do Japanese woodworking because none of that exists in digital.
00:34:50.079 -->
00:34:50.719Maybe not.
00:34:50.719 -->
00:34:52.719But maybe just the finished part.
00:34:52.719 -->
00:35:02.559Things are getting so I saw somebody make a video of a thing that it was just for manufacturing lines that are sending something down a thing, and it was just to flip a can upside down.
00:35:02.559 -->
00:35:06.000Whatever reason, you need to flip it upside down, put something else on, flip it.
00:35:06.000 -->
00:35:11.119And I saw someone posted from their own a designer, they were just like, here's the part.
00:35:11.360 -->
00:35:11.840Yeah.
00:35:12.079 -->
00:35:16.480Because they and they did it by sweeping the can through a block.
00:35:16.480 -->
00:35:23.119But that that is total, that's and then you look at it and you're like, Yeah, that'll work based on just even what they have physically.
00:35:23.119 -->
00:35:28.159So there's some amount of I've seen the Japanese stuff where they like do really intricate dovetailing, a lot of that.
00:35:28.159 -->
00:35:33.039Yeah, but I'm not again like I'm like, you've made it now that you've made it, I can grab it and I can pull it apart.
00:35:33.039 -->
00:35:35.679And I'm not you we're not usually how did you do this?
00:35:35.679 -->
00:35:38.320It's more like, oh, I don't want to, how did you do it quickly?
00:35:38.320 -->
00:35:39.519Is more question.
00:35:39.840 -->
00:35:40.000Okay.
00:35:40.000 -->
00:35:45.679Oh, so you're saying the EI could intuit how it was assembled or machined or a cut or whatever.
00:35:45.679 -->
00:35:47.360It could actually or like a human.
00:35:47.440 -->
00:35:50.719Like I let's say you gave me just a step model of assembled Japanese furniture.
00:35:50.719 -->
00:35:56.559I could say, well, try to just try to come up with a simulation that doesn't clash, a tool path that pulls it apart.
00:35:56.800 -->
00:35:57.679Yeah, there you go.
00:35:57.920 -->
00:36:00.159I think that it's I don't know.
00:36:00.159 -->
00:36:02.800Have you heard of the hugging face incident that's been going on?
00:36:03.119 -->
00:36:04.079Oh, the hugging face?
00:36:04.320 -->
00:36:09.760Yeah, they just got bought by yeah, they just got bought, but then the whole thing that they were hacked by open AI and everything.
00:36:09.760 -->
00:36:10.559Yes, yes.
00:36:10.559 -->
00:36:20.480And all they're the how and why and what of that, but the main takeaway for me is that they're like you set this thing on a path where you like mine is make a cag, it will get there.
00:36:20.480 -->
00:36:26.239It's a question of how much compute and stuff, but it's really successful when you give it something like that.
00:36:26.239 -->
00:36:30.719And right, if it is possible, even seemingly if it's impossible, it'll try to figure it out.
00:36:30.960 -->
00:36:33.440I've got okay, so this bracket.
00:36:33.440 -->
00:36:36.639How do you put a cost on how many tokens is that?
00:36:36.639 -->
00:36:39.119How many this bracket that I'm looking at right now?
00:36:39.119 -->
00:36:43.599Is it expensive to come up with that to in terms of tokens?
00:36:43.840 -->
00:36:47.199No, I would say this is pretty inexpensive compared to the development cost.
00:36:47.199 -->
00:36:48.800This is everywhere on a subscription.
00:36:49.519 -->
00:37:04.000The advantage of this is okay, once it's a STEP file, I can put bring it into cat and I can make modifications, and I'm not using any tokens, but to actually create a point at which this is possible, how many tokens was that bracket model?
00:37:04.079 -->
00:37:05.920If I could probably less than 100,000.
00:37:05.920 -->
00:37:17.760Now it's a little, I have I have a lot of token tracking stuff built in and stuff, but I would say that the actual tools on our end as end users are generally inadequate unless you're using a like the API endpoints.
00:37:17.760 -->
00:37:22.480So if you're on of your customer in Cloud, it's more apt to compare the usage, I would say.
00:37:22.480 -->
00:37:23.760And it's like less than a percent.
00:37:23.760 -->
00:37:27.679I would say something like this is less than one percent of the usually of your weekly budget.
00:37:28.000 -->
00:37:28.320Okay.
00:37:29.280 -->
00:37:30.800Wait, probably less than one percent.
00:37:30.800 -->
00:37:34.400Maybe something like that variable stator ring could get up to five or ten percent.
00:37:34.400 -->
00:37:47.920It's because it's got so many different things going on, and there's part of it is we're gonna go, hey, this isn't the way I think it is, or like I got one that was really thin veins, it was really wide essentially in the middle, and then another ring.
00:37:47.920 -->
00:37:53.840And I was like, I don't really, it doesn't look like what he posted, which was a narrow thing, and then big veins, and then the outside.
00:37:53.840 -->
00:37:58.480So there's some of that where it remodeled it three, four, or five times maybe to actually result.
00:37:59.039 -->
00:38:01.840Okay, and then you're just then you're using up tokens to do that.
00:38:01.840 -->
00:38:03.599Okay, okay.
00:38:03.599 -->
00:38:04.880But all right, all right.
00:38:04.880 -->
00:38:07.679So we got we covered okay, brackets.
00:38:07.679 -->
00:38:09.519We cover we got desk now.
00:38:09.760 -->
00:38:10.079Yeah.
00:38:10.400 -->
00:38:12.960I got a lot more, I got a lot more tests, really.
00:38:12.960 -->
00:38:15.920I oh you got a robot in a cell?
00:38:16.320 -->
00:38:18.639I got offline programming actually.
00:38:18.639 -->
00:38:26.639So this is a fully programmed one that's just like going and doing welds along the seam, and it's not gonna collide with anything.
00:38:26.639 -->
00:38:33.039And this is all in our CAD, the whole thing's designed in our system, including all the rendering effects and everything, and we can go through that.
00:38:33.039 -->
00:38:45.519But I want to show what's even more cool is the offline programming version of it, which is similar, but what we can do is we can sample seams on this, and we're gonna apply and teach the points in real time.
00:38:46.000 -->
00:38:48.880Can I actually see the rip the ripples of the fillet well?
00:38:48.880 -->
00:38:50.639Is that what I'm looking at?
00:38:50.960 -->
00:39:00.159Yeah, so you're seeing this is where it's gonna be trying to put in a seam, and we can change it from crescent to figure eight to zigzag to uh straight.
00:39:00.159 -->
00:39:07.360Okay, and you built this tool, this MCP tool for so yeah, this stuff is in the MCP, and this is just on the website as a model.
00:39:07.360 -->
00:39:10.079This is just a demo using our tools to kind of demonstrate this.
00:39:10.079 -->
00:39:23.920Is something I would have done in spatial kind of in turn, not nothing, actually, nothing this complicated, but in terms of demonstrating that it's even possible to select an edge and sample along the edge, is about what a demo looked like back one year ago.
00:39:23.920 -->
00:39:31.119Now it looks like the robots there, the robots following constraint design solving that when we pick the seam and teach the seam, it adds the point.
00:39:31.119 -->
00:39:36.800So here I'm gonna teach the seam, and we have on the right, it's checking the poses that we're even able to get to them.
00:39:36.800 -->
00:39:42.639So if I propose a bad work angle at 23%, it can't reach it, and it tells me.
00:39:42.960 -->
00:39:43.679Oh, wow.
00:39:43.920 -->
00:39:46.559And then what we're gonna do is we're gonna play it.
00:39:46.559 -->
00:39:50.000Oh, I gotta hit there because we already did the bottom one.
00:39:50.000 -->
00:39:53.199We've got to kind of go through the bottom and then come back up to that one.
00:39:53.199 -->
00:40:03.280And we can so the point order, there's we can do tot order, or we can do a minimal travel, we can do stuff like that, make the point smaller or bigger, and we can kind of speed up this animation.
00:40:03.280 -->
00:40:06.400But essentially you could use this to drive a robot simulation.
00:40:06.800 -->
00:40:11.280You're actually simulating the the radius, the radiance, the light that's coming out of that.
00:40:11.280 -->
00:40:14.400Well that is pretty cool.
00:40:14.400 -->
00:40:24.719I know the it's probably more efficient when you turn it off and just look at see the code generation, but they yeah.
00:40:24.800 -->
00:40:31.280So you could yeah, the next thing would be you take this to kind of G-code or like people do it where they put different parts on top of it.
00:40:31.519 -->
00:40:32.159Yeah.
00:40:32.159 -->
00:40:32.719Yeah.
00:40:32.880 -->
00:40:36.719And then yeah, then it'll flip up and try to avoid collisions here.
00:40:37.039 -->
00:40:37.360Okay.
00:40:37.840 -->
00:40:39.519Let's see, we see that happen.
00:40:39.519 -->
00:40:48.639And there is, yeah, it went up to that top point as like it inserts a few points so it doesn't slam into it in between going from that last one to the first one.
00:40:48.960 -->
00:40:51.920So it's aware that the tip could hit the yeah.
00:40:52.400 -->
00:40:57.360I think this is because I put in the other one at first, it's gonna do that one, then come back around or something here.
00:40:57.360 -->
00:40:59.199But essentially, that's the that's the idea.
00:40:59.440 -->
00:41:04.079Okay, that I used so you just build it because you think, oh, this would be cool.
00:41:04.079 -->
00:41:06.880But are there customers requesting these?
00:41:07.119 -->
00:41:12.159There are customers that do use this functionality from existing SDKs that I know about that I work with.
00:41:12.159 -->
00:41:23.360So that's one reason I've targeted some of these segments is I have extreme specific knowledge about what are the workflows, what do the workflows require, what's a way that I can if I can deliver on this, and those are their needs.
00:41:23.360 -->
00:41:25.039They don't need the rest of the kernel, really.
00:41:25.039 -->
00:41:26.400This kind of customer.
00:41:26.400 -->
00:41:28.079Let me clear the points.
00:41:28.079 -->
00:41:31.360I don't know why it's but that sort of thing, like so.
00:41:31.360 -->
00:41:35.440That's why I've targeted this, not necessarily as a way to it.
00:41:39.760 -->
00:41:41.360Yeah, yeah, pretty cool.
00:41:41.519 -->
00:41:43.679So that's one we could also check and see.
00:41:43.679 -->
00:41:45.119I guess we did already do the desk.
00:41:45.119 -->
00:41:46.800The desk was the way we're just doing the desk.
00:41:46.800 -->
00:41:47.199So yeah.
00:41:47.280 -->
00:41:48.400So this was not planned.
00:41:48.480 -->
00:41:56.480You did not have desk, you did not again, you did not give a desk training, it just gave no desk data, which is even what I would say would help a little.
00:41:56.480 -->
00:42:03.679Yeah, especially if you first start with when I said give me pictures of desks, I think that's what we started with as far as populating the data.
00:42:04.000 -->
00:42:09.119Okay, so I've got that I'd have more challenges, but I'll save them for another time.
00:42:09.119 -->
00:42:12.239But I've been writing about how generative design.
00:42:12.239 -->
00:42:23.119Okay, most of my rants have been about generative design before, which is now being people are saying that was CAD companies are saying, oh, that was the original AI that we had, it was generative design.
00:42:23.119 -->
00:42:34.400And I never liked, I almost never liked anything created by generative design for manufacturability reasons or just aesthetic reasons or whatever.
00:42:34.400 -->
00:42:36.880They just none of their parts actually worked for me.
00:42:36.880 -->
00:42:49.360But they would always tout it as a do-all end-all for engineers, because engineers were they're in their boxes, they couldn't create new shapes, they couldn't think of anything that beyond the standard shapes that they had.
00:42:49.360 -->
00:42:57.280And that always rankled me because sometimes engineers like me, we know what a good shape is to use in a design.
00:42:57.280 -->
00:43:04.320Like we know cables are good on suspension bridges, or spokes are good in wheels, or I-beams are good to support loads.
00:43:04.320 -->
00:43:11.360I don't want them to make these blobby-looking structures, twigs, and shape, those weird shapes.
00:43:11.360 -->
00:43:17.840I don't want it to start from scratch and make things out of molecules when I know these shapes work for me.
00:43:17.840 -->
00:43:27.199And I always thought, AI, now I'm thinking, well, AI could what generative design is starting to make, AI could come in and finish the job for them.
00:43:27.199 -->
00:43:36.639Okay, starting to make a cable or rod or a round tube, finish the job, like like AI does for rendering.
00:43:36.639 -->
00:43:38.880It says, oh, the renderer is almost there.
00:43:38.880 -->
00:43:40.559Finish the picture.
00:43:40.559 -->
00:43:43.760I want it to finish the part that it's starting to make.
00:43:43.760 -->
00:43:48.159Because I think generative design may be a good start, but it's almost never a good finish.
00:43:48.159 -->
00:43:56.960And I want, I just want one of you guys, not you, but CAD companies has to figure out to how to finish the part with AI.
00:43:56.960 -->
00:43:59.760Finish the part with AI and finish the part with a standard.
00:43:59.760 -->
00:44:02.320Shape like the desk.
00:44:02.320 -->
00:44:03.920The cat company hasn't working.
00:44:03.920 -->
00:44:05.920I just tested it on SketchUp.
00:44:05.920 -->
00:44:08.719They should know a desktop can't be wavy.
00:44:08.719 -->
00:44:09.519It can't be.
00:44:09.519 -->
00:44:10.960It has to be flat.
00:44:10.960 -->
00:44:15.199Any idiot knows that, but it doesn't know that.
00:44:15.199 -->
00:44:17.440Oh my God, can't you just finish the job?
00:44:17.440 -->
00:44:19.440Can't you just take normal?
00:44:19.440 -->
00:44:25.280What I think is I wouldn't call it common knowledge, but yeah, it is.
00:44:25.280 -->
00:44:26.159It's common knowledge.
00:44:26.960 -->
00:44:35.199Yeah, if you've ever tried to write on somebody's back, you know, why a desk is flat, or you got the bad desk that was half broken in part because you were late, right?
00:44:35.280 -->
00:44:37.039Like constant source of annoyance.
00:44:37.039 -->
00:44:39.760I want a wavy desk, but most of that time, no.
00:44:39.760 -->
00:44:41.519That's my beef.
00:44:41.519 -->
00:44:43.199That's what I'm writing about.
00:44:43.199 -->
00:44:51.599But there's a yeah, the person that figures out how to make CAD think even like a that could use just standard shapes and optimize parts.
00:44:51.599 -->
00:44:52.880Oh, I'll give you another challenge.
00:44:52.880 -->
00:44:55.679I don't let you go because you're not making any money talking to me.
00:44:55.679 -->
00:45:04.559But one of my challenges is for years I wanted CAD programs, a CAD program that will optimize my bike frame.
00:45:04.559 -->
00:45:06.960Because I have a road bike that I love.
00:45:06.960 -->
00:45:14.719I've ridden it 20,000 miles, rode it across the country, and I spend more time on it than anything else, including my desk chair.
00:45:14.719 -->
00:45:20.880And all the time I think, oh, this is a really perfect design, diamond shape, tubular construction, can't do any better than that.
00:45:20.880 -->
00:45:28.880So I asked all of these generative design companies, Autodesk in particular, make me a better bike than I've got.
00:45:28.880 -->
00:45:30.880And I asked NTOP.
00:45:30.880 -->
00:45:32.559Have you heard of NTOP techno engineering?
00:45:32.719 -->
00:45:32.880Yeah.
00:45:32.880 -->
00:45:35.760Oh, yeah, they're they're a customer that I've heard about, yeah.
00:45:36.079 -->
00:45:36.639Yeah, okay.
00:45:36.639 -->
00:45:37.440I asked them.
00:45:37.440 -->
00:45:41.760I said, because Brad Rothenberg, he said to me, Oh, yeah, sure.
00:45:41.760 -->
00:45:43.360I'll do that for a repinter.
00:45:43.360 -->
00:45:45.360I'll make a better bike.
00:45:45.360 -->
00:45:47.840And I never heard from him again on that subject.
00:45:47.840 -->
00:45:51.440Oh, yeah, that's an easy problem for optimization.
00:45:51.440 -->
00:45:57.199But the use round tubes, but just put them in a way that uses the least round tubes.
00:45:57.199 -->
00:45:57.599Yeah.
00:45:59.039 -->
00:46:08.159It's just that's give me a picture of what you're starting with, and I definitely think that's something where we can just compare the volumes, and that's going to give us a really good idea of what works.
00:46:08.159 -->
00:46:11.039And then I definitely have stuff for simulation and that sort of thing.
00:46:11.039 -->
00:46:12.639So I'm curious what people can do there.
00:46:12.639 -->
00:46:19.519Maybe it's something I'll bring over there and show them, and we'll see.
00:46:19.519 -->
00:46:21.519You can have a story about it.
00:46:21.519 -->
00:46:23.280There's an AI optimized bike.
00:46:23.280 -->
00:46:24.719Make it send it to this guy.
00:46:24.719 -->
00:46:27.440We can get it on the podcast, and and it'll all work out.
00:46:27.440 -->
00:46:30.639But yeah, I'll I'll send it to me and I'll definitely make it send you.
00:46:31.360 -->
00:46:31.760Sounds good.
00:46:31.760 -->
00:46:34.239That could be a good fodder for our next call.
00:46:34.239 -->
00:46:35.360Yeah, that'd be great.
00:46:35.360 -->
00:46:35.920Yeah.
00:46:35.920 -->
00:46:36.320All right.
00:46:36.320 -->
00:46:38.400Well, listen, Lewis, it's been wonderful.
00:46:38.400 -->
00:46:39.199Thank you so much.
00:46:39.199 -->
00:46:40.400I'm so glad we talked.
00:46:40.480 -->
00:46:41.920It's yeah, thank you for having me.
00:46:41.920 -->
00:46:42.800It's been really great.
00:46:43.039 -->
00:46:44.400It's been it's an eye-opener.
00:46:44.400 -->
00:46:46.480I don't want to get news out of this out there.
00:46:46.480 -->
00:46:50.960Honestly, I think somebody should they should start looking for funding.
00:46:51.360 -->
00:46:53.360Yeah, I so I incorporated this week.
00:46:53.360 -->
00:46:54.639It actually came through today.
00:46:54.639 -->
00:46:56.800And I am so I am like trying to see.
00:46:56.800 -->
00:47:08.079I think there's enough there in the $200 a year version that you, if you're buying SOLIDWORKS for whatever thousands of dollars, you could what you keep it for now, that's fine, and just get started over in my thing and import it.
00:47:08.079 -->
00:47:09.519And that could save you a lot of time.
00:47:09.519 -->
00:47:11.760You could finish up in my thing, that might save you a ton of time.
00:47:11.760 -->
00:47:18.159I mentioned 3D PDF, but I did proprietary formats.
00:47:18.159 -->
00:47:24.960Yeah, the initial parasolid reader-writer implementation took 40 minutes without using anybody else's reader or writer.
00:47:24.960 -->
00:47:26.639I want to be very explicit about that.
00:47:26.639 -->
00:47:28.719Everyone else uses it the other way.
00:47:28.719 -->
00:47:30.239We use first principles.
00:47:30.239 -->
00:47:36.880There's a way to read the files, build your own writer, interact between those back and forth, and get to the final solution.
00:47:36.880 -->
00:47:41.119And yeah, within within a few hours, I have the parts opening in third-party readers.
00:47:41.119 -->
00:47:43.840But the initial implementation, because I was like, How hard is interop?
00:47:43.840 -->
00:47:44.800Should I do interop?
00:47:44.800 -->
00:47:47.840I maybe I can just have everybody make parts in my thing.
00:47:47.840 -->
00:47:50.320They could screenshot their parts even for interop.
00:47:50.320 -->
00:47:52.880What I did want to mention that it's that fast.
00:47:53.679 -->
00:47:59.440Oh, I'm reading, I think I read somewhere you can read 80% of the SOLIDWORKS files now, something like that.
00:47:59.599 -->
00:48:00.800Yeah, that's what I was seeing.
00:48:00.800 -->
00:48:03.599I think we got it up to 90% already out of about 3,000.
00:48:03.599 -->
00:48:08.880Now, since I've gone and gotten another like a gigabytes of files, which take the whole day for my computer to crunch.
00:48:08.880 -->
00:48:15.039So I put a thing online about it, but the the data in there is pretty out of date and not really updated yet.
00:48:15.039 -->
00:48:21.280But we're just trying, I'm gonna be doing it in public in terms of out of my file set, 80% of the fillets work or whatever.
00:48:21.280 -->
00:48:23.840And I'll just we're just gonna get those numbers up and up.
00:48:23.840 -->
00:48:26.079But yeah, interop is also there solid.
00:48:26.079 -->
00:48:33.920So we can open solid parts and we can open X under T, X underscore T, X underscore B, and we can open in SAT files as well.
00:48:33.920 -->
00:48:37.039There's a whole page of the formats we support as well.
00:48:37.039 -->
00:48:43.920So really just crunching, yeah, attacking every part of the basically the what you need to be a player in this space.
00:48:44.159 -->
00:48:49.360I had Ralph Grabowski explain to me how this the translators or readers work.
00:48:49.360 -->
00:48:50.719Ralph Grabowski?
00:48:50.719 -->
00:48:51.119No.
00:48:51.119 -->
00:48:54.000Yeah, he said long-standing CAD journalist.
00:48:54.000 -->
00:48:56.639He said to me, you just what they have to do.
00:48:56.639 -->
00:49:02.000This was back when everybody was trying to decode uh Autodesk files, DWG files.
00:49:02.000 -->
00:49:05.440He said, you just have to make a make a component.
00:49:05.440 -->
00:49:10.800Okay, look at a data file, look at a add a component, see what that does to the data file.
00:49:10.800 -->
00:49:12.320And the difference is that part.
00:49:12.639 -->
00:49:15.679Yeah, so I'm saying that yeah, that's the traditional way to do it.
00:49:15.679 -->
00:49:22.559I'm saying we found a different way because to add a component to the data part, you have to have a licensed copy of the product or some component.
00:49:22.559 -->
00:49:23.760And that's been a whole thing.
00:49:23.760 -->
00:49:27.039People have gotten around it by just doing all the work in another country.
00:49:27.039 -->
00:49:30.960Uh, but we did it a different way, so it doesn't require that.
00:49:30.960 -->
00:49:33.440So you write, you take I'll just describe it quickly.
00:49:33.440 -->
00:49:42.719You take the existing corpus of data and you build a reader, and you do know somehow there's some way of looking at that data where you're gonna get cylinders and spheres and stuff that makes sense.
00:49:42.719 -->
00:49:49.360And so if you can somebody says, if you can get files that people have talked about described well, you read you start reading those files.
00:49:49.360 -->
00:49:50.639Now you've got a reader.
00:49:50.639 -->
00:49:54.800Now you start trying to build your writer, build a writer that writes something that the reader can read.
00:49:54.800 -->
00:49:59.119It can read now, it can read your writer's files and the new existing files.
00:49:59.119 -->
00:50:00.960Now you can do what you're talking about.
00:50:00.960 -->
00:50:05.360You have a writer, you can play with it, and then you apply, you keep trying to read the data.
00:50:05.360 -->
00:50:10.719So you go back and forth, writing, reading, writing, reading, read the data and until it's working.
00:50:10.719 -->
00:50:13.920And so we're like we're pulling 80, 90 percent of that out right now.
00:50:13.920 -->
00:50:19.280Obviously, some of it won't work because uh different versioning and stuff, and we got to figure that out.
00:50:19.280 -->
00:50:25.199That's probably the the weirdest one is a different version of SOLIDWORKS is gonna have a different file structure, even completely.
00:50:25.199 -->
00:50:31.360And we have to encode somehow figure that out from first principles in terms of like it basically it produced what it called a grammar.
00:50:31.360 -->
00:50:37.199If you know anything about those from computer science, programming languages are like those in terms of here's how it's defined.
00:50:37.199 -->
00:50:40.159You can say this, and this says how many cylinders there are.
00:50:40.159 -->
00:50:42.480It's a decomposition of the structure in the language.
00:50:42.719 -->
00:50:44.400Are you do you get any sleep?
00:50:44.400 -->
00:50:45.440Do you uh kind of funny?
00:50:45.519 -->
00:50:46.719It started working 24 cents.
00:50:46.719 -->
00:50:51.360That's what I put in the feature board, is the stuff so Claude can run overnight.
00:50:51.360 -->
00:50:56.639So I'm I'm just kind of there's a lot of you get the ideas, but then it's working by itself.
00:50:56.639 -->
00:51:07.599I've told I've done a lot of stuff to basically put my workflow into Claude and then just now lately, though, it's been like running around to different computers in the house and being like, is this still working?
00:51:07.599 -->
00:51:08.400Is it still running?
00:51:08.400 -->
00:51:18.159Okay, all right, but then I can just dump my ideas like all at once when I when they strike me, it is like a write your idea down, but then it goes in and it's like an engineering team working on them.
00:51:18.159 -->
00:51:20.639So actually, it's more like this.
00:51:20.639 -->
00:51:23.119Is actually I'm doing the primary child care.
00:51:23.119 -->
00:51:28.800I we just started preschool, so I've got this tiny break, but I'm cooking all the meals in the house.
00:51:29.119 -->
00:51:32.400One child, one child, uh, dandy preschool.
00:51:33.039 -->
00:51:34.000Yeah, yeah.
00:51:34.000 -->
00:51:37.840So I'm actually slotting this in between a lot of other stuff.
00:51:37.840 -->
00:51:40.559I only have to be on the computer in short bursts.
00:51:40.559 -->
00:51:41.119Okay.
00:51:41.119 -->
00:51:49.840Um playing badminton in the backyard, and I just know that it's just cranking tokens and I'm getting real engineering work done.
00:51:49.840 -->
00:51:51.760It's pretty nice sometimes.
00:51:52.159 -->
00:51:56.000Don't burn yourself out by the time you get all the funding you're gonna get.
00:51:56.000 -->
00:52:00.800Yeah, somebody's gotta put some money into this because this is a I think this is pretty cool.
00:52:00.800 -->
00:52:13.920I think somebody's I tell you, honestly, the stuff that I some of the startups I've seen are making, especially the CAD to text to CAD stuff that you talked about, it's just who gave them money.
00:52:14.159 -->
00:52:15.840They don't, so they just have a wrapper.
00:52:15.840 -->
00:52:17.360A lot of it is what I've seen, right?
00:52:17.360 -->
00:52:20.960It just wraps up SOLIDWORKS and it's like, so what's your I've thought about it too.
00:52:20.960 -->
00:52:27.840I've thought about reaching out to the people, but then I'm like, what is the actual do they have anything that I'm interested in that's gonna help my product?
00:52:27.840 -->
00:52:32.559Obviously, they a kernel would help them, but what is there on top of SolidWorks?
00:52:32.559 -->
00:52:33.360And that's been complete.
00:52:33.360 -->
00:52:37.519I've never seen, no matter what implementation I'm looking at, I've seen no insight into that.
00:52:37.519 -->
00:52:38.880They don't really talk about it.
00:52:38.880 -->
00:52:41.679They more like, look what I built, look what I built, look what I built.
00:52:41.679 -->
00:52:44.000And it's for me, it's like, but the kernel's already there.
00:52:44.000 -->
00:52:46.480What is did you just expose the tools?
00:52:46.480 -->
00:52:48.800Like, yeah, how hard is that?
00:52:48.800 -->
00:52:52.480How what's the insight to get more engineering products out of it?
00:52:52.559 -->
00:52:53.119Anyway, all right.
00:52:53.119 -->
00:52:54.800One last thing, I promise I'll let you go.
00:52:54.800 -->
00:52:58.159What is this foundational mod model that everyone's talking about?
00:52:58.159 -->
00:53:00.559What is your thoughts about a foundational CAD model?
00:53:00.559 -->
00:53:02.559It doesn't even have a kernel, it's just neural.
00:53:04.400 -->
00:53:06.320That's technically possible.
00:53:06.320 -->
00:53:08.960I think the mechanical people don't know what they don't know.
00:53:08.960 -->
00:53:15.199So I went to school for computer science and I know stuff about natural language processing is computation.
00:53:15.199 -->
00:53:37.039Noam Chomsky wrote, he actually is famous not for his writings on socialism and stuff like that, but he's famous for finding out what's called Chomsky's hierarchy of language, where state machines, which are like regular expressions, those are small, the small portion, and then there's a bigger portion of context-free language, then there's recursive enumerated languages.
00:53:37.039 -->
00:53:42.639And his thing was that the language is defined by the automation that we can build to accept the language.
00:53:42.639 -->
00:53:46.159And accepting means you go, this is English, this is not English.
00:53:46.159 -->
00:53:51.440If somebody puts Japanese in front of you, that you can go, that is Japanese, that is not Japanese, something like that.
00:53:51.440 -->
00:53:52.639Or even C.
00:53:52.639 -->
00:53:55.039Someone can put that was used to write compilers.
00:53:55.039 -->
00:54:01.679A compiler uh checks that language, that language is recursively enumerable because C is very complicated.
00:54:01.679 -->
00:54:08.400But a regular expression is less complicated, it's a limited language that you have to type in, and it can do less.
00:54:08.400 -->
00:54:10.880It can't count certain things in certain ways.
00:54:10.880 -->
00:54:13.679So there's very real physical limits there.
00:54:13.679 -->
00:54:19.440So to bring that for back to mechanical people, uh everything is language.
00:54:19.440 -->
00:54:23.679Computation is language, problem solving is language, algorithms are language.
00:54:23.679 -->
00:54:27.360We we want to be number-brained, but numbers are language.
00:54:27.360 -->
00:54:31.360And so there's this whole well, it's a large language model.
00:54:31.360 -->
00:54:33.519People want to go, oh, but can't it do this?
00:54:33.519 -->
00:54:34.480It can do everything.
00:54:34.480 -->
00:54:35.360That's what language is.
00:54:35.360 -->
00:54:36.719Language is computation.
00:54:36.719 -->
00:54:43.920And so we're really like there's some part of this I knew it would work because STEP files have defined in language what all this stuff is.
00:54:43.920 -->
00:54:47.280I'm like, what do you mean I can't read that and write out triangles?
00:54:47.280 -->
00:54:48.559That has to be possible.
00:54:48.559 -->
00:54:53.280Just mathematics, people say can't do math, but math is a language, physics is a language.
00:54:53.280 -->
00:54:54.800So they can do math.
00:54:54.800 -->
00:54:59.760I put an eight, I've got an 18-page math manuscript related to the Collatz conjecture.
00:54:59.760 -->
00:55:09.039We're lean-proven mathematical conjecture, or not conjectures, but proven mathematical facts about the structure of honestly.
00:55:09.039 -->
00:55:18.320I can't read it, it's so indecipherable, but the lean testing has is shows that whatever whatever facts about math it encapsulated it are true.
00:55:18.320 -->
00:55:25.840And it gave me a little bit of research summary that part of it is it advanced something in the someone in a textbook offered a computation and said, Oh, this would be interesting.
00:55:25.840 -->
00:55:34.320We did that computation, proved that we did that computation, and established a new lower bound on some something related to the COLAS conjecture.
00:55:34.320 -->
00:55:35.199It can do math.
00:55:35.199 -->
00:55:38.800People posted it during the World Cup, they solved some unsolved problems.
00:55:38.800 -->
00:55:41.199So it works.
00:55:41.199 -->
00:55:51.360There's yeah, then there's people using AI right now to tell people that it doesn't work, which is so one of the other things I built with Feature Board was this Gemini Chrome extension.
00:55:51.360 -->
00:55:52.000You might like it.
00:55:52.000 -->
00:55:53.519It's called AI Slop Radar.
00:55:53.519 -->
00:55:54.880It's in the Google Chrome store.
00:55:54.880 -->
00:56:15.599And it what it does is it uh takes all your social media, it works on a few specific sites Reddit, LinkedIn, and Twitter, and it breaks it down into oh, this is a person saying something, and then asks Google's nano model, which is it'll help you install it in the browser for you, and ask that that small model, so-and-so said this, is this AI slop or not?
00:56:15.599 -->
00:56:21.199And again, there's a little blurb and everything, and then it judges it, and if it is AI slop, it blocks it immediately.
00:56:21.199 -->
00:56:22.480You just don't even see it.
00:56:22.480 -->
00:56:25.199And I told it, take some statistics.
00:56:25.199 -->
00:56:39.280The top 80 posts, it's Reddit has gotten crazy.
00:56:39.280 -->
00:56:49.360It's gotten absolutely crazy to where the account posting it has one million comic karma or post karma, which is how many times other people have said and upvoted their posts.
00:56:49.360 -->
00:56:57.760Yeah, and so I give comparables the PBS News Hour has a Reddit account that posts every time they have news, it has less than one million karma.
00:56:57.760 -->
00:57:07.679Major League Baseball's official account that posts the highlights of America's most popular sport and tries to get people to watch it all across America, one and a half million.
00:57:07.679 -->
00:57:14.800The top 20 posts, all on Reddit, have accounts that are made in the last year or two or five with millions of karma.
00:57:14.800 -->
00:57:18.559And they're posting about stuff that so anti-AI is a popular one.
00:57:18.559 -->
00:57:21.679There's some decisive ones like flock cameras.
00:57:21.679 -->
00:57:26.480I can tell you everything about that online is fake and promoted by Iran and China.
00:57:26.480 -->
00:57:27.440It's great.
00:57:27.440 -->
00:57:28.239I can prove this.
00:57:28.239 -->
00:57:41.760I can prove it because on one day on Reddit, I can show and I've got the data in a corpus of okay, so Reddit, a bunch of these accounts that we could identify as fake just by looking at the account and asking who is posting this and what else do they post.
00:57:41.760 -->
00:57:44.480Then the next day on X, same thing.
00:57:44.480 -->
00:57:47.920There's these accounts who have that are popular, followed by tons of people.
00:57:47.920 -->
00:57:50.639I ask about them because I was like, that's weird.
00:57:50.639 -->
00:57:51.920Yesterday it was all fake.
00:57:51.920 -->
00:57:58.800This one guy had appeared on Russian Today television in 2014 sponsoring the invasion of the Donbas.
00:57:58.960 -->
00:58:02.480I was like, oh, that's who's behind this.
00:58:02.480 -->
00:58:03.599So it was really weird.
00:58:03.599 -->
00:58:04.480It's really weird stuff.
00:58:04.480 -->
00:58:11.679Russian state actor people going on Russian TV are putting posts on your social media and they're doing a really good job of it.
00:58:11.679 -->
00:58:12.639They're winning.
00:58:12.639 -->
00:58:13.440They are up.
00:58:14.079 -->
00:58:22.880Of course, you know that the Reddit are you being Reddit material is being used by Claw and by Chat GPT to for their knowledge base.
00:58:23.119 -->
00:58:25.519Yeah, so they're trying to get that there too.
00:58:25.519 -->
00:58:28.400Here I can show you real quick because it's kind of interesting.
00:58:28.400 -->
00:58:30.719So here it is just scanning right now.
00:58:30.719 -->
00:58:34.400And I would say so right away, number one to 21.
00:58:34.400 -->
00:58:44.159Yeah, I use some stuff to browse it, but the top 20 posts on Reddit are all automatically removed just by the users that we've identified as bots.
00:58:44.159 -->
00:58:46.400We've been able to instantly see that all.
00:58:46.400 -->
00:58:48.719And then I don't know, there's some let's see here.
00:58:48.880 -->
00:58:50.079It's called the slot filter.
00:58:50.159 -->
00:58:54.559Can I get so AI radar slot filter?
00:58:55.119 -->
00:58:58.559Okay, and I that's one of the extensions I could get from a yeah, okay.
00:58:58.559 -->
00:59:00.079Radar slot detectors.
00:59:00.079 -->
00:59:01.440Okay, tell me this.
00:59:01.440 -->
00:59:03.039Are you you're real?
00:59:03.039 -->
00:59:03.840Yeah, okay.
00:59:03.840 -->
00:59:07.519If I had that going on, the slot detector, it wouldn't be.
00:59:07.760 -->
00:59:13.440It might not like some of what I post because some of it is real funny where I could say, Well, is somebody trying to sell me a product?
00:59:13.440 -->
00:59:17.599In that case, don't okay, don't actually give me what they're showing.
00:59:17.599 -->
00:59:27.599That just by LinkedIn self-promotion fits very closely with just somebody just or on Twitter, people will be like, they'll just post something like cryptic novel.
00:59:27.599 -->
00:59:29.920Yeah, and it's like, what do you know?
00:59:29.920 -->
00:59:32.559The best sale is when you turn your back and close your eyes.
00:59:32.559 -->
00:59:39.199Just something, just something about B2B sales that's unverifiable, their opinion, no facts provided.
00:59:39.199 -->
00:59:42.639Yeah, it would tell me, Yeah, they provided that, we don't like that.
00:59:43.039 -->
00:59:43.760Ah, okay.
00:59:44.000 -->
00:59:49.760So this is this is it visualized in terms of this is what people are talking about on Wall Street bets.
00:59:49.760 -->
00:59:51.760But this is it.
00:59:51.760 -->
00:59:57.760I want the green are people we think are real, and all of the red ones are people we think are not real.
00:59:58.400 -->
00:59:59.519What the heck?
01:00:00.239 -->
01:00:07.519And then the connections between them are for example, somebody who talks about hymns just a stock.
01:00:07.519 -->
01:00:10.960It's this is a great example because it's so constrained, like the tickers.
01:00:10.960 -->
01:00:13.920Yeah, if some it's such a specific thing.
01:00:13.920 -->
01:00:19.360If you were to post on the internet about stock tickers, you probably post one to three, is what I would say.
01:00:19.360 -->
01:00:23.119The stocks that you really are excited about, that's how much a human can be excited.
01:00:23.119 -->
01:00:38.000But the person running a bot is in fact this this person who posts basically every single ticker on the internet, or I don't know, there's some of them that are financial, that basically they're part of these groups that they post about Cisco and Spy.
01:00:38.000 -->
01:00:43.280They just post about these two, or they just post about and it kind of shows it tips their hand.
01:00:43.280 -->
01:01:06.159If you have a bot that's trying to influence people to buy Wendy's hamburgers, it's just gonna bring up Wendy's and hamburgers too much compared to other people, or in these it's the stocks that they form these networks of them and other people who the 15 of them that all talk about these two stocks for two weeks, and then they all talk about these other three stocks, and they do it in far proportion, like compared to other people, like Marvel and MBU.
01:01:06.159 -->
01:01:11.519I have a heat map up here of how often things are discussed compared to and kind of track it.
01:01:11.519 -->
01:01:13.840And that's interesting that you can look in and see.
01:01:13.840 -->
01:01:17.920So spy, which is a big index that people talk about, is talked about.
01:01:17.920 -->
01:01:19.039How would I say this?
01:01:19.039 -->
01:01:23.440Oh, it's just not really talked about enough compared to these stocks that people are clearly pushing.
01:01:23.440 -->
01:01:25.840And so I would essentially say some of it's organic.
01:01:25.840 -->
01:01:37.039There's a lot of people who want to do it, but I would say this Reddit stock one is maybe a little suspicious, and then the other one was maybe it ranks them on the uh suspicion, on the probability that they're fake.
01:01:37.039 -->
01:01:42.800Yeah, something suddenly being talked about is a really bad sign on the internet, actually, that it's fake.
01:01:42.800 -->
01:01:50.400Okay, but yeah, just you might find this stuff interesting, but more so that the Reddit real realistically, I've just stopped going.
01:01:50.400 -->
01:01:51.280I've stopped looking.
01:01:51.280 -->
01:01:54.559I built a thing to give me, I'll shut that off real quick.
01:01:54.559 -->
01:02:11.119I built a daily feed that actually track it goes through it all, it scans automatically for me, so I don't have to read the kind of bogus stuff, filters it all out and gives me back basically the set of everything that people are talking about with briefs and stuff built by the Google Nano thing.
01:02:11.119 -->
01:02:14.000So then you can go through and and look at it a little differently.
01:02:14.320 -->
01:02:17.440So I'm curious, I'm trying to remember how we first made contact.
01:02:17.440 -->
01:02:21.519How did you find out I was a real person that dated me contact?
01:02:21.519 -->
01:02:25.679Was that your little assistance by your with your AI tool here?
01:02:26.079 -->
01:02:31.360No, that my wife had heard of your podcast, but so there was some amount of is this really a rootender?
01:02:31.360 -->
01:02:35.039Uh because no, not many people have gone and used my website.
01:02:35.360 -->
01:02:37.039Oh, okay, okay.
01:02:37.599 -->
01:02:42.159Here's an example of kind of what I'm pulling about the users here that we can kind of check.
01:02:42.400 -->
01:02:42.719Okay.
01:02:43.280 -->
01:02:47.519What's the info about each user and do they seem real?
01:02:47.519 -->
01:02:50.639And then I even started putting in links, so I can come here.
01:02:50.639 -->
01:02:54.960I say it's really not a good sign if somebody's a moderator of anything.
01:02:54.960 -->
01:02:57.360They're the moderator of three cats.
01:02:57.360 -->
01:03:00.800No, melomania cats, no posts.
01:03:00.800 -->
01:03:01.199I don't know.
01:03:01.199 -->
01:03:05.440I would say this is probably a bot just because they're the moderator of a few subreddits that don't make sense.
01:03:05.920 -->
01:03:12.480Is it do you agree that they're it's in Reddit's best interest to have bots because it just increases their traffic?
01:03:12.480 -->
01:03:13.920So it's yep.
01:03:14.400 -->
01:03:17.039But so it's 85% bots right now.
01:03:17.039 -->
01:03:19.280Now there's there's gotta be a reckoning.
01:03:19.599 -->
01:03:24.639Yeah, it's there's gonna be the same thing with the social media, like the YouTube, Facebook, yeah.
01:03:24.639 -->
01:03:26.639Yeah, short videos, they're fake.
01:03:26.719 -->
01:03:42.800And yeah, I showed she was like, but I go to r/slash gymnastics, and I so I opened it up, and the top post was some was the reason they need to go and they need to make an innocent post elsewhere before they go make their influencing decision to kind of mask.
01:03:42.800 -->
01:03:49.119And it was like, Yeah, the top comments, half the comments on your gymnastic posts are by bots, and that's who you're interacting with.
01:03:49.119 -->
01:03:52.880And so I think hopefully they've stopped interacting with it as much.
01:03:52.880 -->
01:03:57.199But yeah, it is there will be some reckoning, I think, once people figure it out.
01:03:57.199 -->
01:04:03.039Yeah, I thought this is ripe for some YouTuber to take a look at or something, or someone like you, and make a video of oh, it's all fake.
01:04:03.039 -->
01:04:09.840It's actually and you can try it with the you can get the data with the plugin or just open it up and look and go, oh my god.
01:04:09.840 -->
01:04:14.000And then you see who's trying to influence you and you really don't want to do whatever it is they're saying.
01:04:14.000 -->
01:04:14.960Yeah, very good.
01:04:14.960 -->
01:04:19.039Alrighty, all yeah, just wanted to show you that it's fun, it's fun to do.
01:04:19.119 -->
01:04:20.719I think we're gonna get some of this down.
01:04:20.719 -->
01:04:23.679I'm thinking we we have to keep the conversation going.
01:04:23.679 -->
01:04:29.039I'm sure we could have enough material for a show probably tomorrow at your rate, but wait a little while.
01:04:29.039 -->
01:04:30.079But this is great.
01:04:30.079 -->
01:04:34.400Lewis has been great, it's been very thought-provoking and quite rewarding.
01:04:35.119 -->
01:04:36.400Yeah, it's been great talking to you as well.
01:04:36.800 -->
01:04:38.719All right, you have a good rest of the day.
01:04:38.719 -->
01:04:40.000All right, thanks for having me.
01:04:40.000 -->
01:04:42.800Okay.
01:04:42.800 -->
01:04:43.199Yeah.
01:04:43.199 -->
01:04:44.719All right, talk to you later.
01:04:44.719 -->
01:04:45.199Bye-bye.
01:04:45.199 -->
01:04:51.599Thank you for listening to FoDES, the Future of Design and Engineering Software Show, brought to you by ENGtechnica.
01:04:52.239 -->
01:04:56.800I hope you have learned of a new application or technology that will help you with your job.
01:04:56.800 -->
01:05:08.320If you have an application you think would be of interest to other engineers, please let me know by emailing me at roopinder at engtechnica.com or message me on LinkedIn.
