WEBVTT
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Welcome to Examining Scripture. We seek to encourage
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believers in Jesus Christ to drink from the Word
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of Life. As God's revelation to mankind, we want
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to demystify the Bible and help you find what
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God has to say about the circumstances you're
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facing. We're not pastors or theologians. We're
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sinners just like you, who, by the grace of God,
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have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. If
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we can thirst for Scripture, so can you. Hi,
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I'm your host, Bob Redd. along with co -host
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Ann Burt. Thank you for joining us in another
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episode of Examining Scripture. Morning, Anne.
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Good morning, Bob. We are here in November recording
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this podcast, and we thought it was important
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enough, given the most recent events in the last
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few months, to talk about forgiveness. What we're
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talking about here is the assassination of Charlie
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Kirk, a great young man of faith. In particular,
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during the celebration of his life in Arizona
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some while back, Erica Kirk made the declaration
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that she forgave and forgives the assailant.
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That's a tough subject for a lot of people, forgiveness
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in general. I think it's created a lot of questions
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about how can Erika forgive the assassin of her
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husband? And so we want to touch upon that today.
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But before we do, I want to make the point that
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examining Scripture is really our audience. We're
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speaking to believers in Jesus Christ. If you're
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not a believer, We're glad you're here. Welcome.
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We hope you stay and that you continue to come
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back and hear what we have to say to other believers.
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We're not here to proof -text things. We're not
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here to prove to you as a non -believer that
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you should believe. It is our hope that you do
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or come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, but
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our audience, who we are speaking to specifically,
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are other believers. We are not a political forum.
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we're about the theology, we're about Scripture.
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And so we want to take this podcast to share
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our individual views on forgiveness, the whole
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topic of forgiveness. Certainly our views are
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rooted in Scripture, and we will plan to share
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with you some of those Scriptures as we go along
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in this podcast, so that you know where God has
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weighed in on the subject. In fact, there are
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some 29 books in the Old and New Testament that
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speak about forgiveness in one way or the other.
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There are 123 verses in Scripture, New and Old
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Testament. that weigh in on the whole concept
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of forgiveness. And so God has a lot to say about
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forgiveness, and it's very instructive and instructional
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for us as well. But before we delve into Scripture,
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Anne, let's open it up and just have a dialogue
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about how we both look at forgiveness. And I'd
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like you to kind of kick the discussion off.
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Well, thanks, Bob. Forgiveness as you said, it
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can be a very complicated topic. And I think
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it's multifaceted. And I think there is a lot
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to say, sort of like the word love, right? You
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love your mother and you love pizza and you use
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the same word for both, but there's different
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weight behind it. And I think it can be like
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that with forgiveness. There are some offenses
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that are very easy to forgive. You know, we're
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walking along and somebody bumps into me and
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I spill my coffee. ah man, you know, I'm sorry
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I bumped into you and I can easily forgive that,
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right? But there are other things like what Erika
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is dealing with when there is a death of a person
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caused by someone else or a deep betrayal by
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someone that you care about. Those things are
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a lot harder to say those words, I forgive. And
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I think by looking at scripture, we can get a
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better understanding of why we should forgive.
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And also by looking at Jesus as our example,
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we can get a better handle on how to forgive
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and some of the things that come out of forgiveness.
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A restored relationship sometimes with the person
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that has offended you, although that's not always
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going to happen. Not keeping bitterness in your
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heart, right? If you're the person that needs
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to forgive someone and you're not wanting to
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do that when you're holding on to that anger,
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you know, you can become bitter as a person that
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can even cause all kinds of health problems.
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Forgiveness is a good thing for us physically.
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It's a good thing for us spiritually. It's a
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good thing for us relationally. But like you
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said, it can be complicated. It's even hard to
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put in a nutshell what forgiveness is. You know,
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there's a whole chapter in the Bible about love,
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and in the very center of that is a part about
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not keeping a record of wrongs. And I think that's
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a component of forgiveness. I think you're right
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to say there's different degrees of forgiveness.
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You mentioned someone's late, I forgive you.
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That's it's important, but it's it's trite, I
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think is how I would put it. But when you have
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felt a deep, sincere sense of being wronged,
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where is that boundary? Where do you say, well,
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this is nothing big, you're late, I don't care
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versus something that's tremendously deep and
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cutting or touching for you? I think. One thing
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could be the amount of time that you dwell on
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the offense Right something simple. That's easy
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to forgive it happens and it's over and you never
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think about it again but someone who Says something
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about you behind your back that has ramifications,
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right? How could that person have said that about
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me? How what were they thinking? Why would they
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do that? you know when you replay it in your
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mind over and over or the Effect that it has
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on you whatever the offense is You know when
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it's a deep wrong when it's a deep offense that's
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when you have to go to your knees and ask for
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help for the forgiving because There are sometimes
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you don't want to forgive or it's very hard to
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forgive you don't know how and sometimes I Think
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it's something that you have to do more than
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once It was very brave of Erica to say, I forgive
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this man that shot my husband. And in that moment,
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yes, she is forgiving. But that doesn't mean
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that two weeks from now, she's not going to wake
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up and be really mad about it and have to forgive
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that guy all over again. I know that's happened
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for me. I had an experience that was very painful.
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And yes, I forgive the person that hurt me. But
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when it comes to mind, When it comes to mind
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again, if I still have those same angry thoughts
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or hurtful thoughts, then I know that I need
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to forgive again. I need to keep bringing that
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to the Lord and try to let it go. Because as
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humans, we're not as good at that as God is,
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right? There's a scripture in Psalms that says,
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He puts our sins as far away as the east is from
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the west. right? The whole forgiving and forgetting
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thing I think is one of those trite sayings that
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we say, but that's not realistic. Yeah, I totally
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agree with that and I get that. I think the deeper
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the hurt becomes very difficult to forgive at
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the onset, right? And then to truly put that
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in perspective to say, right, I've forgiven that
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person. And I think there's a couple things that
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can be helpful to people who are hurting at that
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level. And the first thing I would say about
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it is we are never more like God than when we
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forgive. If we think about how He has forgiven
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us our transgressions, our sins, and that He
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has postponed the just judgment we deserve as
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sinful man and woman. His forgiveness is far
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greater than ours. And yet, through His example,
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understanding what He does for us in his patience
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and his providence, that we are also called to
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forgive. And as you mentioned, that's not an
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easy thing. The other thing I think that is important
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for us to understand about forgiveness, and I
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really like the way you said that, that the inability
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to forgive, and we're talking about really deep
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hurts here, it can have a physical or a mental
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effect on us. I think there's two reasons for
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that. Why don't we forgive? Well, a lot of times
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we don't forgive because we don't want the person
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who has hurt us to be, quote unquote, let off
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the hook, right? Right. But we're not really
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in control of that, are we? No, that's not our
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job to let off the hook or not let off the hook.
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That's up to God. And he's mentioned that a few
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times. We'll point to that in scripture in a
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little bit here. So that's the number one thing.
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Sometimes we don't want to forgive because we've
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been hurt so badly. We feel that the person who
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harmed us should have some consequence. And we
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think that by forgiving them, we're absolving
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them of any consequence. And that's not really
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what's going on here. The other reason why we
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don't forgive is we don't understand that forgiveness
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is a one -way street. What I mean by that is
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when our great God and Savior forgives us, He's
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doing that in totality. It is independent of
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our response. And those of us who do respond
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and come to saving faith become his child, his
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children. Others don't, and others end up not
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becoming his children. But the point here is
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that when we forgive, what we're really doing
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is we're turning towards the light from the darkness.
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The darkness why we don't forgive is we want
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that person to be harmed. They harmed us, we
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want them to be harmed. That's a dark thought.
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Or we want them to have consequences and we want
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to think through the consequences. And that's
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not really up to us, as you said. That's up to
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God. The reality is us forgiving is a one -way
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street. We forgive. We're called to forgive because
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it's affecting us. And we give without regard
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to the response of the other person. We may never
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see that person again. We may never know if they
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are sorrowful or if they have repented for the
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behavior or the thing they said or the way they
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acted, whatever. But it's not about the other
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person in our forgiveness. It's about our own
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heart. It has to come from the very center of
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who we are. And I've had people explain the lack
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of forgiveness to me this way. To not forgive
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is like taking poison every day and hoping that
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the other person dies. And each time you harbor
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hate, each time you don't forgive, it's really
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affecting you at your inner core. and it has
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no impact on the person or the object of your
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hurt, if I can put it that way. I think that's
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a good way to put it. When we don't forgive,
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we're not thinking through that to forgive is
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not to have the other person respond to us and
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then apologize. It's not to have that person,
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if we don't forgive, have some consequence, it's
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solely that we have our own relationship with
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our great God and Savior and that He forgave
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us, therefore we ought to forgive others. And
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to not do that is to harm our relationship with
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our God. It's to harm our own individual self
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through potential health or mental distractions,
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if not harm, and it clouds our ability to shed
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the light. And I think the other thing I would
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want to say about forgiveness is, and again,
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this is an original thought on my part, I've
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heard it from other people, we're to love the
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sinner, but not the sin. And when we think about
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it, when we've been heard at the deepest level,
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And if I can take it to the assassin of Charlie
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Kirk, the darkness within him has come from the
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world. But he himself, with the intervention
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of our great God and Savior, could be a changed
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life in the very same way that we could. And
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so when we look at the object of our need to
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forgive, the person who's harmed us, sometimes
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it's helpful. If we look at the individual, The
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way God looks at the individual which is it is
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his creation Made in his image the act the words
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that are so harmful and hurtful are coming from
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a fallen world and maybe just maybe our forgiveness
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will affect or be an opportunity for God to change
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hearts because we can't change hearts and All
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the while we forgive we're freeing ourselves
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from that burden of either hate or hurt. Yes.
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I think when the deep hurt comes from a person,
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an unredeemed soul, a person that doesn't know
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Jesus, and you look at them through Christ's
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eyes as a person who needs healing and needs
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reconciliation to God, that it's a different...
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It's a different viewpoint than when the deep
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hurt comes from another believer because the
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human temptation is to say, you know, us, I'm
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better, not better, but I know better. Like when
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we come to Jesus, he calls us to a different
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way of life, a different way of living, but other
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people before ourselves and love one another.
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And once God forgives us. we look at other Christians
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and say, well, this is another Christian on the
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path. We're all called to live this way. And
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when we do an offense that offends another believer,
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it's a different way to look at it. Not that
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it should be, but sometimes in our humanness,
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we look at it a little bit differently, I think.
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Does that make any sense? It does. It does very
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much so. And I think whether it's another believer
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who is in the deepness of our being, a brother
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or a sister. It's a family member. And maybe
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the way that you can think of it, too, is a family
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member saying something hurtful, whether they're
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saved or not. And in the end, the forgiveness
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has to come from us and through us. It is in
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:26.059
its sole point something that is individual,
00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.220
meaning it's one way. It's coming from us for
00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:33.519
our benefit because we're called to do that because
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.920
our great God and Savior is called to do that.
00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:38.400
And I think before we move into Scripture, and
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.200
the final thing I would say about forgiveness
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.240
is because it's one way, it's something that
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.210
I have to do from my innermost being to come
00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:56.049
to peace with what has happened to me is that
00:17:56.049 --> 00:18:00.329
I don't necessarily need in that forgiveness
00:18:00.329 --> 00:18:04.869
to reestablish a relationship with that person.
00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:11.170
Sometimes you can, sometimes you don't. And again,
00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:14.829
that's outside of or separate from the forgiveness.
00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:19.009
We're not forgiving somebody to establish or
00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:21.529
re -establish the relationship, though that could
00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:24.930
happen, and we aren't forgiving and saying at
00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:29.049
the same time, you must establish or re -establish
00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:32.089
the relationship. The very fact is that whether
00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:35.809
you have a relationship with that person going
00:18:35.809 --> 00:18:40.319
forward or not, The reality is that that's a
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.460
separate event and it's unrelated to the forgiveness,
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:47.339
that there's no expectation on our part, once
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:53.779
we forgive, to have or expect that person to
00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:57.680
say they're sorry or to re -engage and now be
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.559
a good person or a nice person. It's independent
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:05.180
of the forgiveness and whether we re -engage
00:19:05.180 --> 00:19:09.619
with that person or not. purely circumstantial
00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:13.539
according to the will of God and whether or not
00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:18.700
that just comes to be. True, yes. I believe that
00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:22.140
when God forgives us, right, that there's a reconciliation
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.519
with God, that it opens up the doorway for us
00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.480
to have a relationship with God, but it doesn't
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.859
work that way with people, like you said. The
00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:34.579
forgiveness has to come even if there is no relationship
00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.289
afterward. even if that person's sorry or not,
00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:39.269
or even if they know they've offended you or
00:19:39.269 --> 00:19:43.009
not. But yes, you're right, that's a different
00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:47.230
issue. So let's help some people walk through
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:51.490
Scripture to see how God thinks about forgiveness,
00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:53.829
and what we're called to do as it relates to
00:19:53.829 --> 00:19:56.150
forgiveness. I think the place we might want
00:19:56.150 --> 00:20:01.650
to start is 2 Peter chapter 3, verse 8 and 9.
00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.569
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends.
00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.250
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,
00:20:07.329 --> 00:20:10.289
and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord
00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:13.390
is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand
00:20:13.390 --> 00:20:16.730
slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting
00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:20.309
anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:24.130
Yeah, if you think about it, we're born sinful
00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:27.769
man and woman. If God weren't patient, none of
00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:31.789
us would be here, right? Right. But He desires
00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:36.029
to have a relationship with his creation, and
00:20:36.029 --> 00:20:40.349
none greater so than those who he made in his
00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:46.349
image. This is what Peter wrote. So Peter, during
00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:50.630
Christ's earthly ministry, comes to Christ wanting
00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:54.089
to talk about, so what is the limit of forgiveness?
00:20:56.670 --> 00:21:01.930
And if you'll read Matthew chapter 18, 21 and
00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:05.910
22, we kind of see what Christ has to say about
00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:10.769
this whole idea of how much forgiveness we as
00:21:10.769 --> 00:21:16.970
human beings take upon ourselves. Matthew 18,
00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:20.950
21. Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord,
00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:23.349
how many times shall I forgive my brother when
00:21:23.349 --> 00:21:27.269
he sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus
00:21:27.269 --> 00:21:31.579
answered. I tell you, not seven times, but 77
00:21:31.579 --> 00:21:37.000
times. So that's 490 times. Is Jesus saying we
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.619
need to forgive 490 times on any transgression
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:44.799
and if the 490 first time we're good to not forgive?
00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.880
I think he's saying you need to keep forgiving
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.480
over and over and over, whether it's from the
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.740
same offense or a different offense or whatever,
00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.960
that the well of forgiveness ought never to run
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:03.099
dry." Boy, that's really well said. And we're
00:22:03.099 --> 00:22:05.920
kind of commanded to that in the Sermon on the
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.680
Mount. If we back up in Matthew to chapter 6,
00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:13.500
they call it the Lord's Prayer or some call it
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:16.900
the Disciples Prayer. It's verse 9 through 15.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.779
This then is how you should pray. Our Father
00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:24.579
in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom
00:22:24.579 --> 00:22:27.690
come, your will be done. on earth as it is in
00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:31.430
heaven give us today our daily bread forgive
00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:35.470
us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors
00:22:35.470 --> 00:22:38.089
and lead us not into temptation but deliver us
00:22:38.089 --> 00:22:41.250
from the evil one for if you forgive a man when
00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:44.210
they sin against you your heavenly father will
00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:47.569
also forgive you but if you do not forgive men
00:22:47.569 --> 00:22:50.450
their sins your father will not forgive your
00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:54.680
sins Yeah, so forgive our debts. Is he talking
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:59.420
financial obligations? Well, when I was a kid,
00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.779
it was trespasses, which is also another word
00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:07.619
for sin. Yeah, he's talking about sin, offenses
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:09.819
against our brother, offenses against the Lord.
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.079
Yeah, what I like about that is where it says,
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.869
you know, forgive us our trespasses as We have
00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:21.349
forgiven. I like that it's past tense. The expectation
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:25.069
is that we're making a petition to the Lord to
00:23:25.069 --> 00:23:30.190
say, forgive us ours. And the implication there
00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:34.470
is not as we will forgive others, it's as we
00:23:34.470 --> 00:23:37.789
have, right? That it's past tense. We're really
00:23:37.789 --> 00:23:41.369
asking of our great God and Savior to forgive
00:23:41.369 --> 00:23:47.450
us because we are being like Him. in our forgiveness,
00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:51.349
right? And then it must be important enough subject
00:23:51.349 --> 00:23:57.329
because in 14 and 15, Jesus completely focuses
00:23:57.329 --> 00:24:02.789
on forgiveness, doesn't he? He does. And that's
00:24:02.789 --> 00:24:06.150
some as there's some interesting verses, they
00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:07.849
appear conditional, although I don't see any
00:24:07.849 --> 00:24:11.369
if words in here. Oh, yeah, there is for if.
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:13.539
If you forgive men when they sin against you,
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.859
your heavenly father will also forgive you. But
00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.380
if you do not forgive men their sins, your father
00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:22.460
will not forgive your sins. Yeah, there's a passage
00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:28.079
in Luke where Luke says, as you judge another,
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.180
so you also shall be judged. Beware is what we're
00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:36.180
told, right? That just we're to be very careful
00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:38.720
how we judge others. And in fact, if we think
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:45.309
about it, Forgiveness is the antithesis of judging.
00:24:45.829 --> 00:24:49.250
It's the exact opposite of that. It's a form
00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:52.970
of mercy, isn't it? Yeah. Well, and even when
00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:56.410
you, going back to the word debts, there is a
00:24:56.410 --> 00:25:00.529
parable about a man who owed a huge debt to the
00:25:00.529 --> 00:25:03.990
king. He came and begged the king for mercy.
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.220
and please forgive my debt and please don't make
00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:08.940
me repay that. I'll never be able to do it."
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:11.759
So the king says, okay, I forgive you your debt.
00:25:12.099 --> 00:25:14.539
And then he goes down the street to his neighbor
00:25:14.539 --> 00:25:17.900
who owes him five bucks and has him thrown in
00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:21.599
jail because he can't pay it back. Like, you
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:27.380
know, when we realize what a debt we have, how
00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.849
our sin is an offense to God, right? God is perfect
00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:36.769
and holy and He never did anything wrong. There
00:25:36.769 --> 00:25:42.210
is no sin in Him. So to sin against God, I mean,
00:25:42.430 --> 00:25:46.509
that's a big deal, right? But to sin against
00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:49.250
my neighbor, when you come to Christ and you
00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:51.990
realize what a huge debt has been forgiving you,
00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:55.430
it should make us willing to forgive other people.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.319
That's right. And again, we're talking to believers
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.740
here and examining scripture, and so it's a tough
00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:05.779
subject. But that's really what we're saying
00:26:05.779 --> 00:26:08.140
to our brothers and sisters, that the minute
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:11.859
we think about the need to forgive someone else,
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.279
regardless of the hurt, the depth of it, that
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:20.839
the best way to start to heal is to think about
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:24.900
the debt that our Lord and Savior paid on our
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:29.319
behalf. And I love your pointing to that parable
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:34.319
as a perfect example of what God has done for
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.619
us in forgiveness, in mercy. The example there
00:26:38.619 --> 00:26:41.359
is what we should have done versus what he did
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.599
do, right? The unrighteous, callous person who
00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:49.460
was forgiven much, but was not willing to forgive
00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:55.160
a little. Let's turn to another passage. It's
00:26:55.160 --> 00:27:00.039
in Colossians chapter 3 verse 25, and this is
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.480
really speaking to those of you who are saying
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.299
to themselves, I can't forgive because I want
00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:13.039
that person to pay. Colossians 3 25. Anyone who
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.099
does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and
00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:19.660
there is no favoritism. Yeah, other versions
00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:23.619
say without partiality, right? It's not up to
00:27:23.619 --> 00:27:27.900
us to decide. And Anne, I think what goes with
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:31.279
that, if you jump ahead to Hebrews 10, verse
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.700
26 through 31, I think it even states it more
00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:48.859
clearly. and of raging fire that will consume
00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:52.420
the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law
00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:55.160
of Moses died without mercy on the testimony
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:58.819
of two or three witnesses. How much more severely
00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.480
do you think a man deserves to be punished who
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.579
has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:09.160
treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.319
that sanctified him, and who has insulted the
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:16.619
spirit of grace? For we know him who said, It
00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:21.500
is mine to avenge. I will repay. And again, the
00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:24.740
Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful
00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:27.680
thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:34.000
That's right. And so for us who feel so hurt,
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:38.079
so harmed at the core of who we are by some other
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:43.740
mere human, that person will suffer their a consequence.
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.539
Or they won't. It's up to God. They have to go
00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:49.920
before their Creator, whether they're saved or
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:54.000
whether they're not. God will judge all of us,
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.859
and God will judge that person. It's not for
00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:03.099
us to judge. And so whether we forgive or not,
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.759
it's up to God to deal with each and every one
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:12.559
of us, and that person who harmed you. will certainly
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.460
meet the same, not necessarily the same judgment,
00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:22.180
but they will be judged as we all are. Yes, I
00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:24.720
hesitate to bring up this word because it's one
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.180
of those ones that I think would be confused
00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:31.339
a lot, but the word justice. God is the one who
00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:34.799
administers justice, and he is the one who does
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:37.779
it perfectly. We think in our own human minds,
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.920
a person does this offense, this is what the
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.509
consequence should be. this is how justice should
00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:46.109
be administered. But we don't always get it right,
00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:49.890
but we can trust that God in his perfect timing
00:29:49.890 --> 00:29:53.029
and in his perfect way will administer justice
00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:56.450
to those to whom he gives it necessary. And the
00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:59.910
psalmist tells us that if you read Psalm 9 verse
00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:05.450
8. Psalm 9 verse 8, he will judge the world in
00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:08.109
righteousness. He will govern the peoples with
00:30:08.109 --> 00:30:13.180
justice. Yeah, and I love this one. It's Psalm
00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:18.380
89 verse 14. Righteousness and justice are the
00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:21.519
foundation of your throne. Love and faithfulness
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:26.779
go before you. Yeah, so what we're saying here
00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:32.380
is we have a great God and He is a just God and
00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:36.980
He judges without partiality according to our
00:30:36.980 --> 00:30:41.170
deeds, which James tells us about, we won't go
00:30:41.170 --> 00:30:43.910
there, but James spends a lot of time talking
00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:46.150
about our deeds, our deeds in righteousness,
00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:51.049
our deeds when we've been unrighteous or when
00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:56.109
others have been unrighteous. I think the place
00:30:56.109 --> 00:31:01.039
that I'd like us to sort of land on this podcast
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.519
and is really two places. One is very familiar
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:10.400
and let's start there. It's John 3, 16 and 17.
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:13.960
For God so loved the world that he gave his one
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.240
and only son that whoever believes in him shall
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.539
not perish but have eternal life. For God did
00:31:20.539 --> 00:31:23.799
not send his son into the world to condemn the
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.779
world but to save the world through him. Yeah
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:33.490
and When we think of not forgiving and we harbor
00:31:33.490 --> 00:31:38.089
some kind of hate, in a way, we're holding on
00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:40.789
to this notion that we're condemning the person
00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:45.609
who harmed us. And when we think about it, our
00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:49.390
Lord and Savior humbled Himself coming down to
00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:52.670
this earth, the incarnate God, fully man, fully
00:31:52.670 --> 00:31:58.799
God, to pay the sins, our sins. and to impute
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:01.740
his righteousness on upon us so that we could
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:06.920
have a direct and intimate relationship with
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:11.859
the living and holy God, our God. And so if he
00:32:11.859 --> 00:32:16.900
came to save, then the least of what we can do
00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:22.119
is to have fellowship with the world, not being
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.480
of the world, but being in the world, showing
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:29.019
the light of Christ. And as I said earlier, there's
00:32:29.019 --> 00:32:32.660
no greater way in which we can demonstrate Christ
00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.019
-likeness. There's no greater way than we can
00:32:35.019 --> 00:32:38.700
demonstrate the love of God than when we forgive.
00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:43.500
I'd like to kind of wrap it up with something
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:51.500
Paul wrote in Romans, chapter 12, verses 14 through
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:56.640
21. I think Paul sums up very nicely this whole
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.740
of what we've been talking about and forgiveness
00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:05.240
and how we're to interact in an otherwise dark
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:10.640
world. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction,
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.700
faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who
00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:18.559
are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:23.559
who persecute you. Bless and do not curse. Rejoice
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.450
with those who rejoice. Mourn with those who
00:33:26.450 --> 00:33:30.390
mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not
00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:33.569
be proud, but be willing to associate with people
00:33:33.569 --> 00:33:38.130
of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not
00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:42.390
repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do
00:33:42.390 --> 00:33:45.910
what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it
00:33:45.910 --> 00:33:49.529
is possible, as far as it depends on you, live
00:33:49.529 --> 00:33:52.670
at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge,
00:33:52.829 --> 00:33:56.380
my friends. but leave room for God's wrath. For
00:33:56.380 --> 00:34:00.359
it is written, it is mine to avenge. I will repay,
00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:04.759
says the Lord. On the contrary, if your enemy
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:08.239
is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.539
something to drink. In doing this, you will heap
00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:15.460
burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome
00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.280
by evil, but overcome evil with good. I love
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:24.280
that. where it says, for in doing good you'll
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.940
keep burning coals on his head. It's a way of
00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:31.659
saying that if we don't act with hate, with spite,
00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:37.159
as it says with evil. This concept of burning
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.579
coals on people's head is an indication of searing
00:34:42.579 --> 00:34:45.519
one's conscience. For the person who doesn't
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.800
believe, it's pulling at the core who they are
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:54.469
so that by our not returning for evil, which
00:34:54.469 --> 00:34:58.070
is what the world expects, it convicts their
00:34:58.070 --> 00:35:00.429
conscience to the extent their conscience can
00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:05.190
be convicted and gives an opportunity for our
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:09.329
great God and Savior to change their heart. If
00:35:09.329 --> 00:35:13.650
it's a brother or sister who is a believer, it
00:35:13.650 --> 00:35:17.630
again convicts their heart so they recognize
00:35:17.630 --> 00:35:21.559
or have a chance to recognize allows them to
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:24.159
recognize that they are not being Christ -like.
00:35:24.699 --> 00:35:28.860
And again, it sears their conscience to recognize
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:34.039
that they need to turn back to our great God
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.480
and Savior. You know, we talked about why we
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:40.860
should forgive, because God's forgiven us, and
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:43.699
the how is a little bit more complicated. I think
00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:46.119
that's definitely something that you need the
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:51.300
Holy Spirit for, right? forgiving other people
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:55.239
is how we show that we're like Jesus. We can't
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:57.619
do it in our own strength. We need the Holy Spirit
00:35:57.619 --> 00:36:01.199
inside of us to help us see the other person
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.820
through God's eyes, to help us let go of the
00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:06.840
hurt, to be able to trust God, to administer
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.820
the justice and hold that person accountable,
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.019
to help us not to hold onto the bitterness, but
00:36:14.019 --> 00:36:15.880
just to be able to let that go. You can only
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:17.679
do that through the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:21.489
I think that's a great point. With that in mind,
00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:23.889
will you take us before the throne and take us
00:36:23.889 --> 00:36:27.289
out? Absolutely. Father God, we thank you so
00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:31.469
much for the many places in Scripture where you've
00:36:31.469 --> 00:36:34.650
spoken to us about forgiveness. We thank you
00:36:34.650 --> 00:36:38.670
for forgiving us our sins and for paying our
00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:42.429
debt at the cross. I pray that you would help
00:36:42.429 --> 00:36:46.190
us to keep that in mind when we are offended
00:36:46.190 --> 00:36:49.510
and deeply hurt by others. to see them as you
00:36:49.510 --> 00:36:52.469
do, to love them the way you do, and to not hold
00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:55.429
this record of their wrongs, but to be able to
00:36:55.429 --> 00:36:59.909
let that go and forgive and not have a bitterness
00:36:59.909 --> 00:37:03.110
inside our hearts. Lord, we want there to be
00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:08.409
nothing between you and us, and sometimes the
00:37:08.409 --> 00:37:10.309
thing that's between us is unforgiveness. So
00:37:10.309 --> 00:37:14.389
Lord, help us to be generous with our forgiveness.
00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:18.139
to trust that you will help us in those moments
00:37:18.139 --> 00:37:22.159
to be able to say, I forgive you. We thank you
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.840
for your Holy Spirit that enables us to do this
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.659
forgiving work and just pray that you would help
00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:31.480
us to be able to show your love and grace to
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.500
others who need it. That we would be able to
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:37.940
point them to you and that they would know also
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:41.320
your forgiveness and that you would draw us closer
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:44.340
to yourself. Keep transforming us to be more
00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:46.500
and more like your son, Jesus Christ, whose name
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:52.139
we pray. Amen. Amen. And we're thankful for Erika's
00:37:52.139 --> 00:37:55.900
strength and faith to be a light to the world
00:37:55.900 --> 00:38:00.460
and demonstrate this whole idea of forgiveness
00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:04.860
as God means and intends for us to forgive. And
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:07.559
thanks so much. Look forward to our next podcast.
00:38:09.340 --> 00:38:12.440
Well, there you have it. We've enjoyed our conversation
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.380
today and hope that you feel more equipped to
00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:18.199
examine scripture to find what God has to say
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:21.619
about the important circumstances you're facing
00:38:21.619 --> 00:38:25.699
in your life. Until next time, examine the scripture,
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:28.900
drink from the word of life, and let the Bible
00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:29.860
feed your spirit.
00:00:01.660 --> 00:00:04.900
Welcome to Examining Scripture. We seek to encourage
00:00:04.900 --> 00:00:07.919
believers in Jesus Christ to drink from the Word
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.039
of Life. As God's revelation to mankind, we want
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:13.679
to demystify the Bible and help you find what
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God has to say about the circumstances you're
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facing. We're not pastors or theologians. We're
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.859
sinners just like you, who, by the grace of God,
00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:25.879
have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. If
00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.660
we can thirst for Scripture, so can you. Hi,
00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.890
I'm your host, Bob Redd. along with co -host
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Ann Burt. Thank you for joining us in another
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episode of Examining Scripture. Morning, Anne.
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Good morning, Bob. We are here in November recording
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this podcast, and we thought it was important
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enough, given the most recent events in the last
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few months, to talk about forgiveness. What we're
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talking about here is the assassination of Charlie
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Kirk, a great young man of faith. In particular,
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during the celebration of his life in Arizona
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some while back, Erica Kirk made the declaration
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that she forgave and forgives the assailant.
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That's a tough subject for a lot of people, forgiveness
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in general. I think it's created a lot of questions
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about how can Erika forgive the assassin of her
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husband? And so we want to touch upon that today.
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But before we do, I want to make the point that
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examining Scripture is really our audience. We're
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speaking to believers in Jesus Christ. If you're
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not a believer, We're glad you're here. Welcome.
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We hope you stay and that you continue to come
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back and hear what we have to say to other believers.
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We're not here to proof -text things. We're not
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here to prove to you as a non -believer that
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you should believe. It is our hope that you do
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or come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, but
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our audience, who we are speaking to specifically,
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are other believers. We are not a political forum.
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we're about the theology, we're about Scripture.
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And so we want to take this podcast to share
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our individual views on forgiveness, the whole
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topic of forgiveness. Certainly our views are
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rooted in Scripture, and we will plan to share
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with you some of those Scriptures as we go along
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in this podcast, so that you know where God has
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weighed in on the subject. In fact, there are
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some 29 books in the Old and New Testament that
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speak about forgiveness in one way or the other.
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There are 123 verses in Scripture, New and Old
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Testament. that weigh in on the whole concept
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of forgiveness. And so God has a lot to say about
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forgiveness, and it's very instructive and instructional
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for us as well. But before we delve into Scripture,
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Anne, let's open it up and just have a dialogue
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about how we both look at forgiveness. And I'd
00:03:23.979 --> 00:03:26.400
like you to kind of kick the discussion off.
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Well, thanks, Bob. Forgiveness as you said, it
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can be a very complicated topic. And I think
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it's multifaceted. And I think there is a lot
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to say, sort of like the word love, right? You
00:03:42.020 --> 00:03:44.840
love your mother and you love pizza and you use
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the same word for both, but there's different
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weight behind it. And I think it can be like
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that with forgiveness. There are some offenses
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that are very easy to forgive. You know, we're
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walking along and somebody bumps into me and
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I spill my coffee. ah man, you know, I'm sorry
00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:04.680
I bumped into you and I can easily forgive that,
00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:07.159
right? But there are other things like what Erika
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is dealing with when there is a death of a person
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caused by someone else or a deep betrayal by
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someone that you care about. Those things are
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a lot harder to say those words, I forgive. And
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I think by looking at scripture, we can get a
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better understanding of why we should forgive.
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And also by looking at Jesus as our example,
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we can get a better handle on how to forgive
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and some of the things that come out of forgiveness.
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A restored relationship sometimes with the person
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that has offended you, although that's not always
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going to happen. Not keeping bitterness in your
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heart, right? If you're the person that needs
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to forgive someone and you're not wanting to
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do that when you're holding on to that anger,
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you know, you can become bitter as a person that
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can even cause all kinds of health problems.
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Forgiveness is a good thing for us physically.
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It's a good thing for us spiritually. It's a
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good thing for us relationally. But like you
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said, it can be complicated. It's even hard to
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put in a nutshell what forgiveness is. You know,
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there's a whole chapter in the Bible about love,
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and in the very center of that is a part about
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not keeping a record of wrongs. And I think that's
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a component of forgiveness. I think you're right
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to say there's different degrees of forgiveness.
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You mentioned someone's late, I forgive you.
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That's it's important, but it's it's trite, I
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think is how I would put it. But when you have
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felt a deep, sincere sense of being wronged,
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where is that boundary? Where do you say, well,
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this is nothing big, you're late, I don't care
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versus something that's tremendously deep and
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cutting or touching for you? I think. One thing
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could be the amount of time that you dwell on
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the offense Right something simple. That's easy
00:06:04.709 --> 00:06:07.389
to forgive it happens and it's over and you never
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think about it again but someone who Says something
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about you behind your back that has ramifications,
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right? How could that person have said that about
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me? How what were they thinking? Why would they
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do that? you know when you replay it in your
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mind over and over or the Effect that it has
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on you whatever the offense is You know when
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it's a deep wrong when it's a deep offense that's
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when you have to go to your knees and ask for
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help for the forgiving because There are sometimes
00:06:42.939 --> 00:06:46.779
you don't want to forgive or it's very hard to
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forgive you don't know how and sometimes I Think
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it's something that you have to do more than
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once It was very brave of Erica to say, I forgive
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this man that shot my husband. And in that moment,
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yes, she is forgiving. But that doesn't mean
00:07:04.689 --> 00:07:06.490
that two weeks from now, she's not going to wake
00:07:06.490 --> 00:07:09.529
up and be really mad about it and have to forgive
00:07:09.529 --> 00:07:12.569
that guy all over again. I know that's happened
00:07:12.569 --> 00:07:17.350
for me. I had an experience that was very painful.
00:07:17.889 --> 00:07:22.689
And yes, I forgive the person that hurt me. But
00:07:22.689 --> 00:07:26.100
when it comes to mind, When it comes to mind
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again, if I still have those same angry thoughts
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or hurtful thoughts, then I know that I need
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to forgive again. I need to keep bringing that
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to the Lord and try to let it go. Because as
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humans, we're not as good at that as God is,
00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:49.779
right? There's a scripture in Psalms that says,
00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.939
He puts our sins as far away as the east is from
00:07:52.939 --> 00:07:55.829
the west. right? The whole forgiving and forgetting
00:07:55.829 --> 00:07:59.550
thing I think is one of those trite sayings that
00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:06.329
we say, but that's not realistic. Yeah, I totally
00:08:06.329 --> 00:08:09.649
agree with that and I get that. I think the deeper
00:08:09.649 --> 00:08:17.889
the hurt becomes very difficult to forgive at
00:08:17.889 --> 00:08:24.509
the onset, right? And then to truly put that
00:08:24.509 --> 00:08:27.930
in perspective to say, right, I've forgiven that
00:08:27.930 --> 00:08:33.309
person. And I think there's a couple things that
00:08:33.309 --> 00:08:37.350
can be helpful to people who are hurting at that
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level. And the first thing I would say about
00:08:40.149 --> 00:08:47.269
it is we are never more like God than when we
00:08:47.269 --> 00:08:52.720
forgive. If we think about how He has forgiven
00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.139
us our transgressions, our sins, and that He
00:08:57.139 --> 00:09:03.799
has postponed the just judgment we deserve as
00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:10.700
sinful man and woman. His forgiveness is far
00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:15.639
greater than ours. And yet, through His example,
00:09:16.100 --> 00:09:22.159
understanding what He does for us in his patience
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:27.620
and his providence, that we are also called to
00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:32.000
forgive. And as you mentioned, that's not an
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.879
easy thing. The other thing I think that is important
00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:38.480
for us to understand about forgiveness, and I
00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:42.679
really like the way you said that, that the inability
00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.899
to forgive, and we're talking about really deep
00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:53.730
hurts here, it can have a physical or a mental
00:09:53.730 --> 00:09:57.110
effect on us. I think there's two reasons for
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that. Why don't we forgive? Well, a lot of times
00:10:01.509 --> 00:10:07.889
we don't forgive because we don't want the person
00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:12.590
who has hurt us to be, quote unquote, let off
00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:17.669
the hook, right? Right. But we're not really
00:10:17.669 --> 00:10:21.740
in control of that, are we? No, that's not our
00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:25.220
job to let off the hook or not let off the hook.
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:28.480
That's up to God. And he's mentioned that a few
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:33.600
times. We'll point to that in scripture in a
00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.240
little bit here. So that's the number one thing.
00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:39.500
Sometimes we don't want to forgive because we've
00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:43.960
been hurt so badly. We feel that the person who
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.830
harmed us should have some consequence. And we
00:10:48.830 --> 00:10:53.750
think that by forgiving them, we're absolving
00:10:53.750 --> 00:10:56.710
them of any consequence. And that's not really
00:10:56.710 --> 00:11:00.909
what's going on here. The other reason why we
00:11:00.909 --> 00:11:05.889
don't forgive is we don't understand that forgiveness
00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:09.730
is a one -way street. What I mean by that is
00:11:09.730 --> 00:11:14.889
when our great God and Savior forgives us, He's
00:11:14.889 --> 00:11:19.960
doing that in totality. It is independent of
00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:25.279
our response. And those of us who do respond
00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:29.500
and come to saving faith become his child, his
00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:34.500
children. Others don't, and others end up not
00:11:34.500 --> 00:11:37.820
becoming his children. But the point here is
00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:44.419
that when we forgive, what we're really doing
00:11:44.419 --> 00:11:48.799
is we're turning towards the light from the darkness.
00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:51.500
The darkness why we don't forgive is we want
00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:54.159
that person to be harmed. They harmed us, we
00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.240
want them to be harmed. That's a dark thought.
00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.480
Or we want them to have consequences and we want
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.220
to think through the consequences. And that's
00:12:03.220 --> 00:12:05.440
not really up to us, as you said. That's up to
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.139
God. The reality is us forgiving is a one -way
00:12:09.139 --> 00:12:13.779
street. We forgive. We're called to forgive because
00:12:13.779 --> 00:12:19.669
it's affecting us. And we give without regard
00:12:19.669 --> 00:12:22.269
to the response of the other person. We may never
00:12:22.269 --> 00:12:26.250
see that person again. We may never know if they
00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:31.409
are sorrowful or if they have repented for the
00:12:31.409 --> 00:12:34.649
behavior or the thing they said or the way they
00:12:34.649 --> 00:12:38.230
acted, whatever. But it's not about the other
00:12:38.230 --> 00:12:41.889
person in our forgiveness. It's about our own
00:12:41.889 --> 00:12:45.799
heart. It has to come from the very center of
00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:49.899
who we are. And I've had people explain the lack
00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:55.080
of forgiveness to me this way. To not forgive
00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:59.940
is like taking poison every day and hoping that
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:04.320
the other person dies. And each time you harbor
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:09.059
hate, each time you don't forgive, it's really
00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:13.080
affecting you at your inner core. and it has
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:17.879
no impact on the person or the object of your
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:21.120
hurt, if I can put it that way. I think that's
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:25.200
a good way to put it. When we don't forgive,
00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:29.940
we're not thinking through that to forgive is
00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:33.639
not to have the other person respond to us and
00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:38.539
then apologize. It's not to have that person,
00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.909
if we don't forgive, have some consequence, it's
00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:47.490
solely that we have our own relationship with
00:13:47.490 --> 00:13:50.909
our great God and Savior and that He forgave
00:13:50.909 --> 00:13:54.350
us, therefore we ought to forgive others. And
00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:59.529
to not do that is to harm our relationship with
00:13:59.529 --> 00:14:05.009
our God. It's to harm our own individual self
00:14:05.009 --> 00:14:10.769
through potential health or mental distractions,
00:14:10.830 --> 00:14:14.149
if not harm, and it clouds our ability to shed
00:14:14.149 --> 00:14:19.750
the light. And I think the other thing I would
00:14:19.750 --> 00:14:26.110
want to say about forgiveness is, and again,
00:14:26.129 --> 00:14:28.649
this is an original thought on my part, I've
00:14:28.649 --> 00:14:31.850
heard it from other people, we're to love the
00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:35.389
sinner, but not the sin. And when we think about
00:14:35.389 --> 00:14:39.350
it, when we've been heard at the deepest level,
00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:42.720
And if I can take it to the assassin of Charlie
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.279
Kirk, the darkness within him has come from the
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:51.299
world. But he himself, with the intervention
00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:54.460
of our great God and Savior, could be a changed
00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:57.759
life in the very same way that we could. And
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.679
so when we look at the object of our need to
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.580
forgive, the person who's harmed us, sometimes
00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:09.820
it's helpful. If we look at the individual, The
00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:12.639
way God looks at the individual which is it is
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:17.919
his creation Made in his image the act the words
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:22.299
that are so harmful and hurtful are coming from
00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:27.320
a fallen world and maybe just maybe our forgiveness
00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:31.980
will affect or be an opportunity for God to change
00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:35.940
hearts because we can't change hearts and All
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:39.289
the while we forgive we're freeing ourselves
00:15:39.289 --> 00:15:44.429
from that burden of either hate or hurt. Yes.
00:15:45.710 --> 00:15:51.350
I think when the deep hurt comes from a person,
00:15:52.429 --> 00:15:55.129
an unredeemed soul, a person that doesn't know
00:15:55.129 --> 00:15:57.769
Jesus, and you look at them through Christ's
00:15:57.769 --> 00:16:01.750
eyes as a person who needs healing and needs
00:16:01.750 --> 00:16:04.450
reconciliation to God, that it's a different...
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.679
It's a different viewpoint than when the deep
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.700
hurt comes from another believer because the
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:14.940
human temptation is to say, you know, us, I'm
00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:18.039
better, not better, but I know better. Like when
00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.759
we come to Jesus, he calls us to a different
00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.120
way of life, a different way of living, but other
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.460
people before ourselves and love one another.
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:29.440
And once God forgives us. we look at other Christians
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.179
and say, well, this is another Christian on the
00:16:31.179 --> 00:16:34.179
path. We're all called to live this way. And
00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:38.379
when we do an offense that offends another believer,
00:16:39.220 --> 00:16:41.720
it's a different way to look at it. Not that
00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.000
it should be, but sometimes in our humanness,
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.379
we look at it a little bit differently, I think.
00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.539
Does that make any sense? It does. It does very
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:55.919
much so. And I think whether it's another believer
00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:01.200
who is in the deepness of our being, a brother
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:05.000
or a sister. It's a family member. And maybe
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.220
the way that you can think of it, too, is a family
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.319
member saying something hurtful, whether they're
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.720
saved or not. And in the end, the forgiveness
00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:20.220
has to come from us and through us. It is in
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:26.059
its sole point something that is individual,
00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.220
meaning it's one way. It's coming from us for
00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:33.519
our benefit because we're called to do that because
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.920
our great God and Savior is called to do that.
00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:38.400
And I think before we move into Scripture, and
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.200
the final thing I would say about forgiveness
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.240
is because it's one way, it's something that
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.210
I have to do from my innermost being to come
00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:56.049
to peace with what has happened to me is that
00:17:56.049 --> 00:18:00.329
I don't necessarily need in that forgiveness
00:18:00.329 --> 00:18:04.869
to reestablish a relationship with that person.
00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:11.170
Sometimes you can, sometimes you don't. And again,
00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:14.829
that's outside of or separate from the forgiveness.
00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:19.009
We're not forgiving somebody to establish or
00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:21.529
re -establish the relationship, though that could
00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:24.930
happen, and we aren't forgiving and saying at
00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:29.049
the same time, you must establish or re -establish
00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:32.089
the relationship. The very fact is that whether
00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:35.809
you have a relationship with that person going
00:18:35.809 --> 00:18:40.319
forward or not, The reality is that that's a
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.460
separate event and it's unrelated to the forgiveness,
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:47.339
that there's no expectation on our part, once
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:53.779
we forgive, to have or expect that person to
00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:57.680
say they're sorry or to re -engage and now be
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.559
a good person or a nice person. It's independent
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:05.180
of the forgiveness and whether we re -engage
00:19:05.180 --> 00:19:09.619
with that person or not. purely circumstantial
00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:13.539
according to the will of God and whether or not
00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:18.700
that just comes to be. True, yes. I believe that
00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:22.140
when God forgives us, right, that there's a reconciliation
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.519
with God, that it opens up the doorway for us
00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.480
to have a relationship with God, but it doesn't
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.859
work that way with people, like you said. The
00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:34.579
forgiveness has to come even if there is no relationship
00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.289
afterward. even if that person's sorry or not,
00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:39.269
or even if they know they've offended you or
00:19:39.269 --> 00:19:43.009
not. But yes, you're right, that's a different
00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:47.230
issue. So let's help some people walk through
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:51.490
Scripture to see how God thinks about forgiveness,
00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:53.829
and what we're called to do as it relates to
00:19:53.829 --> 00:19:56.150
forgiveness. I think the place we might want
00:19:56.150 --> 00:20:01.650
to start is 2 Peter chapter 3, verse 8 and 9.
00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.569
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends.
00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.250
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,
00:20:07.329 --> 00:20:10.289
and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord
00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:13.390
is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand
00:20:13.390 --> 00:20:16.730
slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting
00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:20.309
anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:24.130
Yeah, if you think about it, we're born sinful
00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:27.769
man and woman. If God weren't patient, none of
00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:31.789
us would be here, right? Right. But He desires
00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:36.029
to have a relationship with his creation, and
00:20:36.029 --> 00:20:40.349
none greater so than those who he made in his
00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:46.349
image. This is what Peter wrote. So Peter, during
00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:50.630
Christ's earthly ministry, comes to Christ wanting
00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:54.089
to talk about, so what is the limit of forgiveness?
00:20:56.670 --> 00:21:01.930
And if you'll read Matthew chapter 18, 21 and
00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:05.910
22, we kind of see what Christ has to say about
00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:10.769
this whole idea of how much forgiveness we as
00:21:10.769 --> 00:21:16.970
human beings take upon ourselves. Matthew 18,
00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:20.950
21. Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord,
00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:23.349
how many times shall I forgive my brother when
00:21:23.349 --> 00:21:27.269
he sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus
00:21:27.269 --> 00:21:31.579
answered. I tell you, not seven times, but 77
00:21:31.579 --> 00:21:37.000
times. So that's 490 times. Is Jesus saying we
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.619
need to forgive 490 times on any transgression
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:44.799
and if the 490 first time we're good to not forgive?
00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.880
I think he's saying you need to keep forgiving
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.480
over and over and over, whether it's from the
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.740
same offense or a different offense or whatever,
00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.960
that the well of forgiveness ought never to run
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:03.099
dry." Boy, that's really well said. And we're
00:22:03.099 --> 00:22:05.920
kind of commanded to that in the Sermon on the
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.680
Mount. If we back up in Matthew to chapter 6,
00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:13.500
they call it the Lord's Prayer or some call it
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:16.900
the Disciples Prayer. It's verse 9 through 15.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.779
This then is how you should pray. Our Father
00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:24.579
in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom
00:22:24.579 --> 00:22:27.690
come, your will be done. on earth as it is in
00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:31.430
heaven give us today our daily bread forgive
00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:35.470
us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors
00:22:35.470 --> 00:22:38.089
and lead us not into temptation but deliver us
00:22:38.089 --> 00:22:41.250
from the evil one for if you forgive a man when
00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:44.210
they sin against you your heavenly father will
00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:47.569
also forgive you but if you do not forgive men
00:22:47.569 --> 00:22:50.450
their sins your father will not forgive your
00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:54.680
sins Yeah, so forgive our debts. Is he talking
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:59.420
financial obligations? Well, when I was a kid,
00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.779
it was trespasses, which is also another word
00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:07.619
for sin. Yeah, he's talking about sin, offenses
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:09.819
against our brother, offenses against the Lord.
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.079
Yeah, what I like about that is where it says,
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.869
you know, forgive us our trespasses as We have
00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:21.349
forgiven. I like that it's past tense. The expectation
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:25.069
is that we're making a petition to the Lord to
00:23:25.069 --> 00:23:30.190
say, forgive us ours. And the implication there
00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:34.470
is not as we will forgive others, it's as we
00:23:34.470 --> 00:23:37.789
have, right? That it's past tense. We're really
00:23:37.789 --> 00:23:41.369
asking of our great God and Savior to forgive
00:23:41.369 --> 00:23:47.450
us because we are being like Him. in our forgiveness,
00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:51.349
right? And then it must be important enough subject
00:23:51.349 --> 00:23:57.329
because in 14 and 15, Jesus completely focuses
00:23:57.329 --> 00:24:02.789
on forgiveness, doesn't he? He does. And that's
00:24:02.789 --> 00:24:06.150
some as there's some interesting verses, they
00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:07.849
appear conditional, although I don't see any
00:24:07.849 --> 00:24:11.369
if words in here. Oh, yeah, there is for if.
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:13.539
If you forgive men when they sin against you,
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.859
your heavenly father will also forgive you. But
00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.380
if you do not forgive men their sins, your father
00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:22.460
will not forgive your sins. Yeah, there's a passage
00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:28.079
in Luke where Luke says, as you judge another,
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.180
so you also shall be judged. Beware is what we're
00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:36.180
told, right? That just we're to be very careful
00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:38.720
how we judge others. And in fact, if we think
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:45.309
about it, Forgiveness is the antithesis of judging.
00:24:45.829 --> 00:24:49.250
It's the exact opposite of that. It's a form
00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:52.970
of mercy, isn't it? Yeah. Well, and even when
00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:56.410
you, going back to the word debts, there is a
00:24:56.410 --> 00:25:00.529
parable about a man who owed a huge debt to the
00:25:00.529 --> 00:25:03.990
king. He came and begged the king for mercy.
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.220
and please forgive my debt and please don't make
00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:08.940
me repay that. I'll never be able to do it."
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:11.759
So the king says, okay, I forgive you your debt.
00:25:12.099 --> 00:25:14.539
And then he goes down the street to his neighbor
00:25:14.539 --> 00:25:17.900
who owes him five bucks and has him thrown in
00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:21.599
jail because he can't pay it back. Like, you
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:27.380
know, when we realize what a debt we have, how
00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.849
our sin is an offense to God, right? God is perfect
00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:36.769
and holy and He never did anything wrong. There
00:25:36.769 --> 00:25:42.210
is no sin in Him. So to sin against God, I mean,
00:25:42.430 --> 00:25:46.509
that's a big deal, right? But to sin against
00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:49.250
my neighbor, when you come to Christ and you
00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:51.990
realize what a huge debt has been forgiving you,
00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:55.430
it should make us willing to forgive other people.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.319
That's right. And again, we're talking to believers
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.740
here and examining scripture, and so it's a tough
00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:05.779
subject. But that's really what we're saying
00:26:05.779 --> 00:26:08.140
to our brothers and sisters, that the minute
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:11.859
we think about the need to forgive someone else,
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.279
regardless of the hurt, the depth of it, that
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:20.839
the best way to start to heal is to think about
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:24.900
the debt that our Lord and Savior paid on our
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:29.319
behalf. And I love your pointing to that parable
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:34.319
as a perfect example of what God has done for
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.619
us in forgiveness, in mercy. The example there
00:26:38.619 --> 00:26:41.359
is what we should have done versus what he did
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.599
do, right? The unrighteous, callous person who
00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:49.460
was forgiven much, but was not willing to forgive
00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:55.160
a little. Let's turn to another passage. It's
00:26:55.160 --> 00:27:00.039
in Colossians chapter 3 verse 25, and this is
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.480
really speaking to those of you who are saying
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.299
to themselves, I can't forgive because I want
00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:13.039
that person to pay. Colossians 3 25. Anyone who
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.099
does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and
00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:19.660
there is no favoritism. Yeah, other versions
00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:23.619
say without partiality, right? It's not up to
00:27:23.619 --> 00:27:27.900
us to decide. And Anne, I think what goes with
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:31.279
that, if you jump ahead to Hebrews 10, verse
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.700
26 through 31, I think it even states it more
00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:48.859
clearly. and of raging fire that will consume
00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:52.420
the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law
00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:55.160
of Moses died without mercy on the testimony
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:58.819
of two or three witnesses. How much more severely
00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.480
do you think a man deserves to be punished who
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.579
has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:09.160
treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.319
that sanctified him, and who has insulted the
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:16.619
spirit of grace? For we know him who said, It
00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:21.500
is mine to avenge. I will repay. And again, the
00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:24.740
Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful
00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:27.680
thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:34.000
That's right. And so for us who feel so hurt,
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:38.079
so harmed at the core of who we are by some other
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:43.740
mere human, that person will suffer their a consequence.
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.539
Or they won't. It's up to God. They have to go
00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:49.920
before their Creator, whether they're saved or
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:54.000
whether they're not. God will judge all of us,
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.859
and God will judge that person. It's not for
00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:03.099
us to judge. And so whether we forgive or not,
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.759
it's up to God to deal with each and every one
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:12.559
of us, and that person who harmed you. will certainly
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.460
meet the same, not necessarily the same judgment,
00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:22.180
but they will be judged as we all are. Yes, I
00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:24.720
hesitate to bring up this word because it's one
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.180
of those ones that I think would be confused
00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:31.339
a lot, but the word justice. God is the one who
00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:34.799
administers justice, and he is the one who does
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:37.779
it perfectly. We think in our own human minds,
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.920
a person does this offense, this is what the
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.509
consequence should be. this is how justice should
00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:46.109
be administered. But we don't always get it right,
00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:49.890
but we can trust that God in his perfect timing
00:29:49.890 --> 00:29:53.029
and in his perfect way will administer justice
00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:56.450
to those to whom he gives it necessary. And the
00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:59.910
psalmist tells us that if you read Psalm 9 verse
00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:05.450
8. Psalm 9 verse 8, he will judge the world in
00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:08.109
righteousness. He will govern the peoples with
00:30:08.109 --> 00:30:13.180
justice. Yeah, and I love this one. It's Psalm
00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:18.380
89 verse 14. Righteousness and justice are the
00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:21.519
foundation of your throne. Love and faithfulness
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:26.779
go before you. Yeah, so what we're saying here
00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:32.380
is we have a great God and He is a just God and
00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:36.980
He judges without partiality according to our
00:30:36.980 --> 00:30:41.170
deeds, which James tells us about, we won't go
00:30:41.170 --> 00:30:43.910
there, but James spends a lot of time talking
00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:46.150
about our deeds, our deeds in righteousness,
00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:51.049
our deeds when we've been unrighteous or when
00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:56.109
others have been unrighteous. I think the place
00:30:56.109 --> 00:31:01.039
that I'd like us to sort of land on this podcast
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.519
and is really two places. One is very familiar
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:10.400
and let's start there. It's John 3, 16 and 17.
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:13.960
For God so loved the world that he gave his one
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.240
and only son that whoever believes in him shall
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.539
not perish but have eternal life. For God did
00:31:20.539 --> 00:31:23.799
not send his son into the world to condemn the
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.779
world but to save the world through him. Yeah
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:33.490
and When we think of not forgiving and we harbor
00:31:33.490 --> 00:31:38.089
some kind of hate, in a way, we're holding on
00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:40.789
to this notion that we're condemning the person
00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:45.609
who harmed us. And when we think about it, our
00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:49.390
Lord and Savior humbled Himself coming down to
00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:52.670
this earth, the incarnate God, fully man, fully
00:31:52.670 --> 00:31:58.799
God, to pay the sins, our sins. and to impute
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:01.740
his righteousness on upon us so that we could
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:06.920
have a direct and intimate relationship with
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:11.859
the living and holy God, our God. And so if he
00:32:11.859 --> 00:32:16.900
came to save, then the least of what we can do
00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:22.119
is to have fellowship with the world, not being
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.480
of the world, but being in the world, showing
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:29.019
the light of Christ. And as I said earlier, there's
00:32:29.019 --> 00:32:32.660
no greater way in which we can demonstrate Christ
00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.019
-likeness. There's no greater way than we can
00:32:35.019 --> 00:32:38.700
demonstrate the love of God than when we forgive.
00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:43.500
I'd like to kind of wrap it up with something
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:51.500
Paul wrote in Romans, chapter 12, verses 14 through
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:56.640
21. I think Paul sums up very nicely this whole
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.740
of what we've been talking about and forgiveness
00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:05.240
and how we're to interact in an otherwise dark
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:10.640
world. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction,
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.700
faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who
00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:18.559
are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:23.559
who persecute you. Bless and do not curse. Rejoice
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.450
with those who rejoice. Mourn with those who
00:33:26.450 --> 00:33:30.390
mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not
00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:33.569
be proud, but be willing to associate with people
00:33:33.569 --> 00:33:38.130
of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not
00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:42.390
repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do
00:33:42.390 --> 00:33:45.910
what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it
00:33:45.910 --> 00:33:49.529
is possible, as far as it depends on you, live
00:33:49.529 --> 00:33:52.670
at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge,
00:33:52.829 --> 00:33:56.380
my friends. but leave room for God's wrath. For
00:33:56.380 --> 00:34:00.359
it is written, it is mine to avenge. I will repay,
00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:04.759
says the Lord. On the contrary, if your enemy
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:08.239
is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.539
something to drink. In doing this, you will heap
00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:15.460
burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome
00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.280
by evil, but overcome evil with good. I love
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:24.280
that. where it says, for in doing good you'll
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.940
keep burning coals on his head. It's a way of
00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:31.659
saying that if we don't act with hate, with spite,
00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:37.159
as it says with evil. This concept of burning
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.579
coals on people's head is an indication of searing
00:34:42.579 --> 00:34:45.519
one's conscience. For the person who doesn't
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.800
believe, it's pulling at the core who they are
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:54.469
so that by our not returning for evil, which
00:34:54.469 --> 00:34:58.070
is what the world expects, it convicts their
00:34:58.070 --> 00:35:00.429
conscience to the extent their conscience can
00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:05.190
be convicted and gives an opportunity for our
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:09.329
great God and Savior to change their heart. If
00:35:09.329 --> 00:35:13.650
it's a brother or sister who is a believer, it
00:35:13.650 --> 00:35:17.630
again convicts their heart so they recognize
00:35:17.630 --> 00:35:21.559
or have a chance to recognize allows them to
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:24.159
recognize that they are not being Christ -like.
00:35:24.699 --> 00:35:28.860
And again, it sears their conscience to recognize
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:34.039
that they need to turn back to our great God
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.480
and Savior. You know, we talked about why we
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:40.860
should forgive, because God's forgiven us, and
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:43.699
the how is a little bit more complicated. I think
00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:46.119
that's definitely something that you need the
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:51.300
Holy Spirit for, right? forgiving other people
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:55.239
is how we show that we're like Jesus. We can't
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:57.619
do it in our own strength. We need the Holy Spirit
00:35:57.619 --> 00:36:01.199
inside of us to help us see the other person
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.820
through God's eyes, to help us let go of the
00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:06.840
hurt, to be able to trust God, to administer
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.820
the justice and hold that person accountable,
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.019
to help us not to hold onto the bitterness, but
00:36:14.019 --> 00:36:15.880
just to be able to let that go. You can only
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:17.679
do that through the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:21.489
I think that's a great point. With that in mind,
00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:23.889
will you take us before the throne and take us
00:36:23.889 --> 00:36:27.289
out? Absolutely. Father God, we thank you so
00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:31.469
much for the many places in Scripture where you've
00:36:31.469 --> 00:36:34.650
spoken to us about forgiveness. We thank you
00:36:34.650 --> 00:36:38.670
for forgiving us our sins and for paying our
00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:42.429
debt at the cross. I pray that you would help
00:36:42.429 --> 00:36:46.190
us to keep that in mind when we are offended
00:36:46.190 --> 00:36:49.510
and deeply hurt by others. to see them as you
00:36:49.510 --> 00:36:52.469
do, to love them the way you do, and to not hold
00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:55.429
this record of their wrongs, but to be able to
00:36:55.429 --> 00:36:59.909
let that go and forgive and not have a bitterness
00:36:59.909 --> 00:37:03.110
inside our hearts. Lord, we want there to be
00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:08.409
nothing between you and us, and sometimes the
00:37:08.409 --> 00:37:10.309
thing that's between us is unforgiveness. So
00:37:10.309 --> 00:37:14.389
Lord, help us to be generous with our forgiveness.
00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:18.139
to trust that you will help us in those moments
00:37:18.139 --> 00:37:22.159
to be able to say, I forgive you. We thank you
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.840
for your Holy Spirit that enables us to do this
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.659
forgiving work and just pray that you would help
00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:31.480
us to be able to show your love and grace to
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.500
others who need it. That we would be able to
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:37.940
point them to you and that they would know also
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:41.320
your forgiveness and that you would draw us closer
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:44.340
to yourself. Keep transforming us to be more
00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:46.500
and more like your son, Jesus Christ, whose name
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:52.139
we pray. Amen. Amen. And we're thankful for Erika's
00:37:52.139 --> 00:37:55.900
strength and faith to be a light to the world
00:37:55.900 --> 00:38:00.460
and demonstrate this whole idea of forgiveness
00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:04.860
as God means and intends for us to forgive. And
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:07.559
thanks so much. Look forward to our next podcast.
00:38:09.340 --> 00:38:12.440
Well, there you have it. We've enjoyed our conversation
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.380
today and hope that you feel more equipped to
00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:18.199
examine scripture to find what God has to say
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:21.619
about the important circumstances you're facing
00:38:21.619 --> 00:38:25.699
in your life. Until next time, examine the scripture,
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:28.900
drink from the word of life, and let the Bible
00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:29.860
feed your spirit.
