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Welcome to the Kirchhoff Partners Podcast Event Method.
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Conversations about the realities of running, growing and scaling event businesses today.
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This podcast is for established event business owners who want clarity, confidence, and a different perspective on the road ahead.
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Our aim is to keep these conversations open, informal, honest, practical, and even sometimes a little bit informative.
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So you can walk away with fresh insights and ideas you can put into action in your own business.
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I'm glad you're here, so let's get started.
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This week I'm joined by Simon Woodward, founder of Polar Bear Live, an event production business that has carved out a fascinating niche working with some of the UK's biggest property developers and destinations.
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With more than 30 years in the events industry, Simon has worked on everything from major live events to public realm activations, helping clients including Battle City Power Station and Olympia London understand not just how to stage events, but how to create spaces that are genuinely event ready.
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We talk about building a business through reputation and relationships, why saying yes and working out the solution afterwards isn't always a bad philosophy, and how Polar Bear's ability to adapt during COVID ultimately opened up an entirely new chapter for the company.
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But we also explore Simon's other great fascination, emotional intelligence.
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We discuss psychological safety, what makes a genuinely good leader, why curiosity beats judgment, and why understanding people may be one of the most valuable skills any of us can develop.
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If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to the podcast.
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You'll get new episodes before anyone else and keep up with the stories shaping our industry.
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This is Event Matters, and this is Simon Woodward.
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Good morning, Simon.
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Thank you very much indeed for being a guest on the Event Matters podcast.
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Lovely to see you.
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How are you doing at the moment?
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Very well, thank you, David, and thank you for having me.
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In similarity with quite a few of the guests, I fear it it's becoming an age thing that I'm speaking to more and more people who have been in the industry for long periods of time.
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It's nearly three decades.
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Am I right in saying that?
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Yeah, it's 30 years plus, I think.
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And for your sins, obviously, and you know, there's no getting away from it.
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You once upon a time worked with Mike Kershaw, both at Business Pursuits and the Concerto Group.
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You know, not that he's listening and no one else cares, but what was it like working with Mike?
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I think I spent 12 years with the concerto group in total.
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Starting a business pursuit, then with ultimate experience, and eventually ending up with Concerto Live.
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I'm not saying this to blow smoke anywhere, but Mike was probably one of the best bosses I've ever had.
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He was an amazing character.
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In fact, they all were, but Mike particularly was a fantastic boss.
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Having had other bosses over the years, I would go back and say that Mike was an inspiration.
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I think what's so interesting, you know, having worked with him on and off for the last 30 years and then uh working with him, you know, on a consistently two-much basis over the last 10 years.
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One of the things I think that he's learned and wasn't afraid to do was have this very collaborative approach within the industry.
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He didn't have an issue working with competitors if he could see a way to make a deal or do an event better or whatever.
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And I think that's very important indeed.
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Like the Dell boy of uh the events world.
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I love that.
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Yeah, this time next year, as he keeps on telling me every time we speak.
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So you came out of that and you founded Polar Bear.
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What was the sort of vision for the business, or did it just evolve as opportunities came along?
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I think initially, in my head, it started out as a uh an event production business.
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Which was from your experience with Clive, wasn't it?
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Yeah, basically.
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I mean, iteration of Polar Bear was with a pair of business associates.
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We had a warehouse for a kit, so we started out as an event production company.
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Like so many event production companies do, I guess.
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Yeah.
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It sort of then morphed, we parted ways.
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I kept the name, and it sort of remained as an event production company, but it's really sort of morphed from that.
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We are still event production, but we sort of we get involved in the management side as well.
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So my background is event management, and I can't help myself sometimes.
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I wanted to sort of sit in the background with the production side of things, but yeah, I guess now it's probably a 50-50 split.
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There are clients that we work with where we manage the events, and there are clients where we work with where we are full-on production technical services.
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Yeah.
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And you said that the consultancy is a big part of this, isn't it?
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Sort of advising clients how to do their events.
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Yes.
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The consultancy is a great part of the business, actually.
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We work with a lot of property developers, and so we advise them on how to become event ready.
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So with the property developers, they all have a public realm piece.
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There are public areas that they want to activate in the future, and we come on board, hopefully, early enough to say if you want to activate this particular part of the site, these are the things that you need to be considering in order to get yourself ready for production companies like me to come in and to produce events.
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You need to be thinking about power, water, drainage, anchoring points, you know, this, that, and the other, yeah, Wi-Fi.
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So we sort of sit there in that respect, making sure that they're event ready.
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If they're not from that world, you know, I was speaking to someone on the other day, and I go, Oh, yeah, it was a company I'm working with in Belfast, and they said one of the biggest issues they had in venues was power, you know, pure and simple.
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I mean, power is one of my biggest bugbears.
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You know, you get all these sites opening and they want to do this, that, and the other.
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You know, they've got all these amazing ideas, and you go, brilliant, where's the power?
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And they go, Oh, we haven't got any.
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And you sort of sit there going, Well, okay, well, okay, that's good.
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That's my first problem, then, is how do I get power to here?
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You know, aren't you we can't use generators anymore.
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You know, there's certain sites where even in the physical sense, a generator isn't possible.
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They're dirty, disgusting, noisy, huge, you know, and it's just not an option.
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So I feel for sites that haven't considered it because uh retrofitting is incredibly expensive.
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I mean, in some instances, you'd be at ground zero, as it were, and you'd say that before you do this, these are the things you need to think about.
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Well, we hope.
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It's not always the case.
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A lot of the projects that we've been involved with, we have been in a position to advise in advance.
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There's a couple of clients that we've got at the moment that, you know, they're complete, they're built, and they are open.
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And we're now saying to them, this won't work unless you can, you know, bring power to this particular point.
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You know, lovely idea, but it ain't gonna work.
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So we've sort of kind of glossed over the services that Polar Bear do.
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But if you were gonna give the elevator pitch for what the business actually does, how would you describe Polar Bear Live as a business?
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I would describe this as an event production company, but with a twist.
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We mainly work for property developers.
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We understand their needs in terms of public realm activation, building launches, topping out ceremonies, etc.
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And I think we position ourselves in that little niche where we can deal with most things that are thrown our way through our little black book.
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I think it's very rare in this world that an event business, I mean, occasionally it happens, sometimes in the sort of pharma sphere, but you know, people say, Oh, well, we work for the event services.
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I always think to myself, yeah, sure you do.
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Everyone claims they work in the financial services industry.
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That's just simply not true.
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But you've clearly targeted the building construction because for an event production company, it's got a natural lifespan, hasn't it, in terms of going from the placemaking or the space making or whatever, all the way through to doing events, you know, the topping out ceremonies or whatever it might be.
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That kind of works for you, doesn't it?
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Yeah, I mean, I think through our work, Battersea Power Station, which, you know, I think is one of our longest in terms of duration projects, um, that's given us the platform to take to other people.
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So what we've done with them has given us a model that we now take to other developers and say, well, actually, there's a lot more that we can help you with than just events.
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You know, we've done that as he, we've built semi-permanent structures, we've built semi-permanent or permanent spaces, we've installed public artworks, we've created marketing suites for them, we've done their sort of large-scale public festivals right the way through to, I think the simplest thing we've done for them is building a set of shelves that actually reflects the Geary building, is probably the simplest job we've done down there for them.
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And so we've taken that model and saying, right, what we've done at Battersea, we can do for you as well.
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And so we picked up Olympia as a client, Barclay Holmes, St.
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James, St.
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Williams, St.
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Edwards, they're a client of ours now, the Voyage Exchange, and we've replicated what we do at Battersea for all of those developers, for all of those property owners.
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And that seems to be where, yes, you say it's a niche, and it is a niche, but we speak their language as well.
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Yeah, which really helps because it's a different sector.
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Completely.
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And when you're working alongside developers and major construction firms, they kind of want to know that they're in safe hands.
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Because I think probably the worst thing is the bureaucracy and health and safety side of things when you're working alongside massive construction companies.
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They don't want, you know, a little event company coming along and trampling all over their construction site.
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But if you speak their language and you understand what it is that they require from you, they are much more open-armed letting you do what you need to do for the client, the end client, who is, you know, the building owner, for example.
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The building owner wants you to do something.
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The construction company don't want you anywhere near them.
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If you speak their language, they are much more receptive to what it is that the end client has asked you to do.
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And so we've learned the hard way sometimes.
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Was COVID the sort of launch point to growing the business exponentially?
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Because obviously, without live events, without production, you know, you could use the production skills to advise businesses on their spaces, couldn't you?
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And that was essentially the skill that you had that other people didn't.
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I think in a weird sort of way, you've hit the nail on the head there.
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COVID did teach us a big lesson, which was to pivot to go, hang on a minute.
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You know, we've got a big team of freelance, you know, skilled workers.
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And because we were working with developers, and I had all these guys screaming for work during COVID times, we put them to other uses.
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You know, we've got all sorts on our books.
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And so we said, well, okay, well, we're not doing events at the moment, but we can, I don't know, transfer your show apartment.
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You know, we can lay floors, we can paint and decorate, we can put up, you know, stud walling, we can tile, we can plumb, we can rewire.
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So let's move all these guys that are screaming for work, let's move them over to the building sector.
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That kept us alive during COVID.
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Gave us a another string to our bow.
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And we actually did, in the grand scheme of things for a small event company, we did all right in COVID year.
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We didn't do too badly.
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We did uh uh probably a fifth of our turnover, but we still made money.
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I guess you get asked a question, the answer's always yes, and then you figure out how to do it.
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But I guess that really was quite literally.
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Oh, by the way, Simon, could you do this?
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Uh yeah, sure, I can do that.
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Because you had the skills, you know, in the team to do it.
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We did, and uh, you know, I think everyone relies on their little black book of who to call in an emergency or who to call when you need something.
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I'm lucky that we have a really good little black book, but I think it's the willingness to say yes that helped.
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But it's also, you know, just positioning yourself and saying, right, you know, we're desperate right now.
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What can we do that is going to help you?
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So we were fitting glass screens to desks at one point so that people could come back to work.
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We were decorating show apartments, we were putting up stud walls, we demolished an old marketing suite, you know, it was anything that we could get our hands on.
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Basically walking around various offices and saying, What can we do?
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Because I've got all these guys standing around doing nothing, you know, they live hand to mouth.
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How can we help?
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How can we assist?
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You know, and we got work that way.
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And I guess you talked about your little black book, which I'm sure is not so little anymore.
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Obviously, you don't do a lot of marketing, you've already said that, but and you get a lot of recommendations because obviously you work for Bath Seed, it's a very visible project.
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And recommendations are so important.
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Do we sometimes overlook reputation within the events world and concentrate too much on sales and marketing?
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Or what do you think about that?
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I think sales and marketing works.
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I mean, you know, Sam Gill was a big fan of marketing, you know, a brochure and a website, and that worked.
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I think we do overlook that reputational piece of recommendation.
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I think that's been integral to Play the Bay Live.
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We don't do any marketing at all.
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And like I said, don't look at our website because it's awful.
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But I am in the in the process of updating it.
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But every single bit of work that we've ever got has come through recommendation.
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So I nurture those relationships to make sure that that continues to happen.
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One of those relationships, or one of those that came back was the limpow, which you mentioned previously, which came from the recommendation and you got the gig almost immediately, which is you're kind of the ultimate proof that that it's the most powerful form of marketing anyway.
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Yeah, I mean, again, it comes down to nurturing those relationships.
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So getting to know everybody within a particular business has been a big part of it.
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So we integrated ourselves within Latter C years ago.
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We have a desk at their offices, I get to know everybody, and when people leave as they they disappear off to other businesses, usually within the property sector, and they take us with them.
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And that's what happened with Olympia, that's what happened with EcoWorld, that's what happened with Barclay Holmes, is they're all ex-people that worked at Lattersea Power Station that have seen what we do, and something happens within their business.
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They go, Ah, I know a man that can do that.
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You know, that's been amazing.
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But it does take a lot of work, and uh, you know, you have to nurture those relationships.
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I mean, Olympia must have been the most amazing gig because the transformation has been staggering, isn't it?
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It's a brilliant one to land.
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It's a fantastic side, you know, and it's not entirely finished yet.
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There's still more to come there.
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You know, Olympia Way, which was the old, I think when you were a contractor at Olympia, you used to have to drive down Olympia Way into the car park.
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That's now all pedestrianised and about 20 metres wide.
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When that's fully open, that's going to be an amazing space.
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Next door to Pizza Express, wasn't it?
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I seem to remember.
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That's right, yeah, there was a Pizza Express there.
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They've now got wonderful restaurants down there already, but the actual Olympia Way isn't fully open yet.
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They've then built on the roof of the building in between the two Grand and National Halls.
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You've got a lovely promenade up there with restaurants and bars on either side.
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You've got an event venue that uh holds 3,800 people.
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There will be theatre that will hold 1,200 people.
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So when that's all fully open, it's gonna be an amazing space.
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It's got two really strong public realm areas that we can help activate.
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And so they brought us in to help them in the future.
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We'll be looking at things like Christmas, summer activations, you know, activations that tie in very nicely with whatever's going on in the halls.
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Um we did a piece with them that was all about hyper Japan.
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Hyper Japan is is uh an event that goes into the grand and the national walls every year.
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So we did a whole Japanese piece with them, which is still ongoing actually.
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We've got uh gigs that happen there.
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So it's a brilliant, brilliant site.
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Just love that.
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I mean, you know, but people pay for a decision-making process that was that quick.
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When we spoke before, you said that you don't spend a lot of time worrying about rigid processes, you're more of a problem solver.
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And again, this comes back to the saying yes and worrying about how to do it later on.
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Has that always been you?
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Has that always been the Sun Woodward philosophy?
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Yeah, I think Mike will probably tell you that.
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I'm not very good at following processes.
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I would like more, and uh, I've just bought another team member on board, a full-time member of staff who is gonna help to get our processes in order.
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Actually, if you looked at my filing, my filing's good, my consistency is good, as in, you know, everything follows a format, but I would say I'm more of a problem solver than I am a following processes kind of guy, and that seems to have worked most of the time.
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But I guess that's much as anything else, Simon.
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That part of that is the people that you surround yourself with, you know.
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Do you know what I mean?
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You may not be process-driven, but other people will be.
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You said you've got, you know, great team of people that not necessarily are full-timers with you, but you know a man who can instantly having that sort of network of people must be just vital for you.
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Well, I think it was Andrew Charles who said to me, You're only as good as your weakest supplier, which is a mantra that I actually take with me.
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Is that the only thing you've taken from Andrew Charles?
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.039
That's a really good philosophy to live by.
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.480
You know, when you're working with other suppliers, only work with the best.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.240
And yes, they do have processes, probably stronger than mine.
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.240
They really carry the can in that respect.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:43.039
We're helping someone at the moment literally build a business from the ground up.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.720
He's got a couple of really good contracts that are giving him a nice income.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:55.039
And he's just going to get to a point if he can keep on delivering the way he's delivering, i.e., really well, where he's just gonna fall over because there are just literally not enough hours in a day.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.720
And we've said to him, look, you're in an unbelievable position right now.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.160
Just surround yourself with a brilliant team, and very quickly you'll have a very successful company.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:05.599
I think that's so true.
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:06.799
Completely, 100%.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:14.640
If you've got trust in your team and they trust you, and you at least share the same values, I think, then that's the making of a great team.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.640
The sharing the values, I think, is really important.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.000
That's the definition of creating a culture within the business and all that sort of stuff.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.480
It's it's that togetherness which is so important.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.519
Yeah, it's always, you know, an employee, you're a colleague.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:32.799
That was one of the things that separates Mike Kershaw from a lot of bad managers, is you could always go to him with a problem.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.480
And it was never your fault, it was how can I help?
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:44.400
And I think if you have that sort of that culture, that attitude, that trust within your team, then you know, you can build great things from that.
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.599
The other thing that really worries me more in today's world is, I mean, you make a very good point.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.960
You know, you could go and see Mike.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:59.119
I mean, we've got clients who've got completely remote teams, and it's very difficult to get those remote teams to kind of work coherently together.
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:06.640
And we were discussing this with someone the other day, and it was just interesting that the younger members of our team are really suffering with stress and anxiety.
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:12.000
And I think it's more because they're not in an office environment than the fact that they're sitting at home.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:20.640
They haven't got the opportunity to go and speak to that person and say, I'm struggling today, or how do I do this, or can I come with you on this site visit, or whatever it might be.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.640
They're not learning the way that we learned.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.599
No, and I think it's going to change in that respect.
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.119
Psychological safety is a huge thing in my world.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.319
And you don't get that from remote working, I don't think.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:40.160
And the trust and the them being able to knock on someone's door and say, you know, Mike, I've got a solution, but I've got a problem and I need your help with it.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.319
Yeah, you can't get that from remote working.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:49.759
I'm not saying that we shouldn't have remote working because I think it's the new norm and we work remotely a lot.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:59.759
And I wouldn't want to sort of change that, but you do lose an element of trust and an element of the psychological safety that I think is really important within a company.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:04.240
It gets lost when you're doing, you know, stuff like this, like we're doing now, where we're on a Zoom call.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.599
It's difficult to kind of keep that with remote working, I think.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:13.119
I just worry about how you're talking about teams who are suffering from burnout and stress.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:18.079
I can't see how you can help that or alleviate that without that human contact.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:23.039
And it comes back to what we were talking about the other day about you know everyone going remote during COVID.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:30.880
And I was saying, don't believe for one second that this is going to be the new norm, because we're human beings, we need to connect, we need that social interaction.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.599
You know, I've got two kids, one of who's a chef, which is great.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.160
So she has to go to her place of work, which is brilliant.
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:43.359
But the other one is applying for jobs at the moment, and you know, there's the different packages she's getting through, and I'm just going, wow, you know, two days working from home.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.400
She's 22 years old.
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:51.359
I wanted to go out and learn quickly and to be surrounded herself on people because the quicker you learn from people, the quicker you move up, and you know, the more successful you can be.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.960
Um, the other thing that has obviously changed considerably since COVID is AI.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:01.680
I know that you are an adopter of AI at our advanced years.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.319
You know, I've well, I know you use Claude, you use chat.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.079
Do you think it's really helped productivity?
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:07.519
I mean, I would say yes, 100%.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:09.359
Yes and no.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.559
I mean, I don't think I actually really know that much about it in the great scheme of things.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.440
I mean, I see people using it to their advantage all the time.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.079
There's a couple of things that I've used it for recently.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:31.920
CGIs, annoyingly, for the designers that I work with, it can be quite useful to quickly run up a CGI, whereas I used to pay someone, you know, three or four hundred quid a day to create those for me.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.640
So, you know, you can now stick a photograph into Chat GPT and say make it look like this.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:40.079
20 seconds later, you've got your CGI that you can send to a client.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:41.680
I mean, that's amazing.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.920
I've drawn up employment contracts through through AI.
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.279
I've drawn up amazing checklists through AI.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.440
My worry with it is it's not wholly accurate that you still can check the work.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.799
I've got a supplier that I work with who is insisting on using AI to generate quotes at the moment.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.440
And I had to say to him yesterday, you've got to stop doing this.
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.039
You need to go back to the original way.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:05.839
And he said, Why?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.680
I said, Because it's so obvious that A, there's the consistency.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.559
Every single one of your quotes is in a different format for a start.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.640
I said, Have you actually checked what it's saying?
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:22.160
Because I don't believe you have, because the inconsistencies between what you're charging me for this and what you're charging me for that are vast.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.279
Um I get that it's quicker, but I just don't like it.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.039
There's too much information there.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.160
I just need to know how much this is going to cost.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.039
Not why it's going to cost me, but how much is it going to cost?
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:34.720
We can deal with the why later.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.599
So there are things about it that bear in mind, I've only just scratched the surface.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.039
I'm sure there are people listening to this now thinking AI is brilliant.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:44.559
It does this, that, and the other formula.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.920
I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to AI.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.880
I literally just sparked us again.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:57.039
I had a great quote the other day from someone who said it's not AI that is going to take young people's jobs.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.839
It's people who know how to use AI that are going to take young people's jobs.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.720
Jules.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.160
And I agree with you there.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:22.559
That's uh one of the things that I thought, you know, if you're going to start a business in AI now, start a business that instructs AI, if I had someone in my little black book now that could do all of that for me, and all I had to do was pick up the phone and say, tell AI to do this, and it would churn out exactly what I'm looking for, that I would pay for that service.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:37.680
So just away from Polebear and AI and tech and all that sort of stuff, the one of the most sort of amazing things that you told me last time we spoke that you are taking a master's degree in applied emotional intelligence, which is like, wow, AI didn't even know that was a thing.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.440
So emotional intelligence, I think, is one of the most important things in business.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.599
You have to have empathy with the people you're doing business with or working with or whatever it might be.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.599
What fascinated you so much about it?
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:48.880
This could be a rabbit hole.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:49.440
I appreciate that.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.759
But it's but I think it's an important rabbit hole.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:23:00.000
So I did a practitioner's course in NLP, for those of you who don't know, neurolinguistic programming, or as I call it now, nothing like psychology.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.440
This was in 2012 because I was intrigued.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:12.000
That then led to an interest in human behaviour, and I did a master's degree in communication behavior and credibility analysis.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.920
And that I think I completed that in 2020, 2023, 2024, something like that.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.400
Anyway, so that was like a proper deep dive into human behavior.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.920
One of the modules on that course was emotional intelligence, and that piqued my interest.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:33.200
And as a result, I became a facilitator in emotional intelligence in testing.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.799
So Cliff Lansley, Dr.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:40.559
Cliff Lansley, who is one of my mentors, he's developed a new measure of emotional intelligence called eFactor.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.680
He's licensed me to deliver that and facilitate.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.200
So if you came to me and said, What's my EI score?
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:48.799
I could put you through a test.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.680
It would give you a score out of 200, similar to IQ.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.480
Let's say your national average, so you're going to be roughly around about 100, 110.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.799
You could come to me and say, I want to be better.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.119
I want to be more emotionally intelligent.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.480
The difference between EQ and IQ is that you can train EQ emotional intelligence.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:14.720
So, you know, through neuroplasticity and uh, you know, the human brain willingness to learn, I can train you to be more emotionally intelligent.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:19.759
I can create a personal development plan for you that would, let's say, last six months.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.279
And at the end of it, we could retest you and see how you've improved.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.920
You know, we can get you up to sort of 140, 150.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:32.160
Once you're in the half 140 mark, as with IQ, you are in the realms of genius.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:41.839
Do you think if people came to you and said, listen, I think I have a flaw in my management technique or I have a flaw in my sales technique or or whatever it might be, that this would help potentially?
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.960
Yes, 100%.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:54.400
You know, it's it's proven there's so much research out there now, so many studies going into EQ at the moment, and EQ in the workplace, particularly, so emotional intelligence to the workplace.
00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:03.680
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the way forward in terms of leadership training has to start with with emotional intelligence.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:09.440
You know, you cannot create psychologically safe environments at work without emotional intelligence.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.920
You have to be able to manage your own emotions and other people's emotions.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:18.480
And emotions are present at work every single day, whether you realize it or not.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.839
You know, and a lot of leaders don't take that into account.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:22.559
But they're there.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:24.319
Your staff have emotions.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:36.559
And if you don't know how to read those emotions and react to those emotions and also deal with your own emotions, then I think you're lacking skills that lead to that psychologically safe environment.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.519
How difficult is it in a remote environment then?
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.240
Because it hopefully no one's 100% remote.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:51.920
But if you're only in the office two days a week or whatever it might be, from a leadership technique, that must be really difficult to have that empathy, that emotional intelligence with someone you're not seeing all the time.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.359
I mean, it adds a layer of difficulty to it.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:08.079
That, you know, one of the skills that we can teach is how to read people, not just through being with them, but how to read what you're saying, your body language, your facial expressions.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:16.000
So there's still a way that I can connect with you, even online, through being able to detect what's going on with you right now.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:22.079
And yes, that's useful, but nothing is ever going to reply that one-to-one interaction.
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:30.960
Do you find yourself, as a consequence, judging people when you meet them, or you know, if you're working with someone new, do you find yourself sort of saying, Oh, interesting.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:35.599
I wonder, you know, I wonder what's going on with your life at the moment, or I can see what's going on with your life at the moment.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.799
Yes and no.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.279
I mean, it's not a skill that is is kind of there all the time.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.119
It takes a lot of concentration to be able to read people.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.519
You're talking about six communication channels that have to be read simultaneously.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.279
So it's not something you're just doing all the time.
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.880
You actually have to sort of switch it on.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.880
What it's done is it's made me more curious.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.319
I'm more curious about what's going on with other people.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.000
I'm more susceptible to other people's moods.
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.680
You know, it's like, okay, you know, I can see you're not happy right now.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:06.720
Let's talk about it.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.759
Let's discuss this.
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.039
I can just read you.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.960
There's something going on with you right now.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:13.839
Let's address this now and get it out of the way.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.160
There's that great line from Ted Lasso, isn't it?
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:17.920
Be curious, not judgmental.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.759
So I tell you what, Ted Lasso is absolutely brilliant.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.759
It is the most emotionally intelligent program out there to date.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.799
And that Dart scene where he's saying, Be curious, that is emotional intelligence.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.400
Be curious, not judgmental.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.279
You know, remove those biases, and we all have them.
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:42.480
It's about recognizing what your bias is in this particular situation and suspending it for that particular moment.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:46.880
You know, I'm looking at you, let's say you've got a spider's web tattooed across your forehead.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:53.519
You know, immediate judgmental bias is, you know, this guy's, you know, obviously a bit of a psychopath.
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:54.480
Well, he might not be.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:58.480
You've got to develop these alternative hypotheses when it comes to bias.
00:27:58.559 --> 00:27:59.519
And, you know, Dr.
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:01.279
Cliff Lansley uses this regularly.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:10.640
You're in traffic and someone shoots past you and cuts in front of you, and your immediate reaction is to wind the window down and you know speak one's mind, right?
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.960
But develop the alternative hypothesis.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:14.079
Maybe he's in a hurry.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:23.759
You know, maybe his wife's just gone into labour and he's trying to get home and you know, he needs to get there quickly and that extra bit of time that he's saved by getting in front of you and cutting in front of you.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:24.960
Maybe that's why.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:30.799
And so, you know, suspend the judgment, develop that alternative hypothesis, and just go, do you know what?
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:36.079
There's no time for this, because it could be a perfectly logical explanation for why he's doing that.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.759
I would love to have taken your EQ test before I started doing these podcasts, whatever it was a year and a half ago.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:48.720
Because I think the most interesting thing is how much my curiosity has piqued over various different things over the last year and a half.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:49.680
I mean, it's fascinating.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:59.119
I'm just really interested by asking questions and finding out about people, and not just necessarily from a business point of view, but yes, that's really interesting too, and hopefully it's interesting for the people who listen.
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.599
But it's people ultimately, and I think it's so important to be interested in people.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.559
Absolutely.
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.200
And it does serve a good purpose for you.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:13.440
You know, if you show interest in others, uh you get to know them that little bit better, you know, from a business point of view.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:19.440
If that's a client, you know, and you listen, you know, that's the really important thing is to listen.
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:20.960
Listen to what they're saying.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.519
You know, I know a lot of people, I I mean, I love to talk.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:33.200
One of the things that I have to stop myself from doing is talking too much and listening to people and actually digesting what it is they're saying and them responding.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:38.960
But it can really benefit you, you know, with clients and suppliers alike, is hear them out.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.960
You know, don't interrupt them and you know, oh, we can do this for you, we can do that for you.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.160
Listen to what they're telling you.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.880
30 years in, what do you see the future of Polar Bear Live, future of Sun Woodward?
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:50.880
You must be excited for the next chapter.
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.519
Yeah, I mean, we're really busy at the moment, which is great, probably busier than we've ever been.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.039
And I feel like Polar Bear Live is annoyingly, after 14 years, is just starting to get going in the last four years.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:11.839
But having said that, as a result of what happened in 2020, and then you going, oh, here's an opportunity, but almost by accident.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:17.039
Yeah, by accident, instinct kicked in, and I made sure that we still had a business.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:24.720
I think, like a lot of people, very nearly lost it, had a couple of uh lucky turns, I guess, but most of it was self-generated.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.200
So yeah, so the business is going well at the moment.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:28.960
I want to continue that.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:30.559
I'm also studying.
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:38.960
Is it coaching or is it I've just started another business with one of my cohorts, which is leadership training, with a focus on emotional intelligence and psychological safety.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.839
So that's kind of building in the background.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.400
I guess what's next for Simon Woodward?
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.839
I would like to keep both going.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:31:04.400
I would like to keep Halo Bear alive and running, but I would also like to get into some leadership training and actually sort of impart some of the knowledge that I've gained over the last uh seven years and actually help people to sort of develop that psychologically safe environment in their workplaces that will enable them to grow.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:26.880
And again, if anyone's listening to this, if you look at something called Project Aristotle, Project Aristotle was commissioned by Google many years ago, and they looked at what made great teams in their business, and what they found was that the teams that outperformed all the others were the teens with the highest level of psychological safety.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:37.440
And so if I can teach that to businesses and say, This has been proven to work time and time again, not just Google, but other companies have shown this to work.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.359
We can take you from being good to great.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:42.960
That's what I really want to do.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.079
Yeah, you're so right.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.640
I think there are people who are born with leadership skills and they probably have very high EQ as a consequence.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.279
But I think I do think it is something you can learn leadership.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:04.400
Some people would always be crap leaders, but as you say, if you're on the cusp, you can probably help me to get to a place where I'm a more than adequate leader and I have empathy with my employees and I feel more comfortable in that role.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:04.960
Yeah.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:10.480
A lot of leaders are promoted to leader without the skills being a leader.
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.440
And it's those leadership skills that we want to try and help promote.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.440
You know, you may have fallen into a leadership role through promotion, for example, but that doesn't mean to say you're a great leader.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:32.240
And so I think we can help people develop that and, you know, turn the productivity of, I don't know, let's say it's a department, turn that productivity in from good to great, you know.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.920
And Google have proved it, you know, they're not a small company.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.079
You know, so that's where I see me going over the next few years.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:43.359
I'm not saying I'm a brilliant leader myself, but practice what I preach, I guess.
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:51.440
I make mistakes like everybody, and it's about learning from those mistakes and trying to be better for me, but I'd like to sort of help other people do that.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.000
And that's again, I harp back to Mr.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:00.160
Kershaw, but he did create one of the most psychologically safe environments that I've ever been in.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.200
And I've I've had some horrendous bosses over the years.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:08.960
Mike wasn't one of them, but he did create an environment where it was okay to say what was on your mind.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:13.279
Uh, it was okay to admit to a mistake, it was okay to ask for help.
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.440
You know, those all those elements are lead to psychological safety.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:26.319
I can direct you to uh an amazing book by Amy Edmondson, I think I've got it probably somewhere around here, called The Fearless Organization.
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:31.440
So Amy Edmond Edmondson developed this concept of psychological safety.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:38.880
And in the book, she talks about all the businesses that have failed because of the lack of psychological safety.
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:58.400
And when you read that and you sort of digest how things went wrong for those businesses, and she talks about VW and the emissions scandal, she talks about NASA and the two big disasters, you know, and they were all as a result of people not being able to speak up and say what they thought.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.960
Before we finish, we always finish with a rapid fire round, which I've got, I'm looking forward to this one.
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:09.039
So, most influential person in your career could be live or dead, but someone who's influenced your career.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.519
Not trying to buy promote, but it's Kerl Short.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:12.559
Business book.
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.079
I've got several here that we could have a look at.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.840
Working with emotional intelligence.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.679
I mean, that's been around for a long time.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.840
Adaptive listening by uh Nicole Lernbrum.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:26.880
We're gonna go through your your whole top shelf there.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.480
Well, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking around because there's some amazing ones that I've read.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:36.079
But yeah, emotional intelligence by Daniel Weldman as well, poisonous people, applied empathy.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.079
See, I would put Mike Kershaw in the poisonous people bracket, but anyway.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:41.679
Your favourite movie?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.480
Ooh.
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.280
Probably uh Shawshank.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.480
Yeah, Fares.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:53.599
One of the biggest box office flops of all time, Shawshank Redemption, and yet one of the most successful movies uh of all time now.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.239
Incredible.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.599
Tim Robbins, brilliant.
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:58.159
Favourite drink after a hard day's work?
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.119
Ooh, probably a glass of red.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:03.280
Yeah, I'm with you there.
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:08.320
Uh small mountain you were dying, little things that really, really drive you mad.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.400
How long have you got?
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.719
At the moment, line bikes.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:16.960
Story behind the line bike hatred?
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:24.480
We've had one of those electric bike bays put outside, literally outside my house, and they are everywhere.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.360
They're all over in the middle of the road, blocking my neighbour's driveway, wanting up the street.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.920
And we called the council yesterday and they're not interested.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:32.960
Yeah, of course they're not.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.719
They need to spend their money elsewhere.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.559
Your passion away from polar bear?
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.719
Ooh, well, emotional intelligence.
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:41.760
Yeah, obviously.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.280
Uh scuba diving.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.639
Really, which would also, I suspect, be your hidden talent.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:47.599
Oh, is it?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.719
I don't know about a talent.
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:50.880
I don't know whether I'm any good at it, but I do it a lot.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.880
Everyone who is a scuba diver says to me it's the most amazing thing in the entire world.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.079
Oh, it's it's fantastic.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.079
I'm going in about four weeks' time, actually.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:00.159
Um, dogs or cats?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.239
God, I've got all of them.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:03.840
Yeah, you and me both.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.519
Cats don't give up monkeys, though.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.239
And the three people you'd have to dinner and why.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.760
They can be dead or alive.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.199
I've always loved the idea of speaking to Winston Churchill.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.119
And he'd enjoy that glass of red with you.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:16.800
He'd enjoy the glass of red with me.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.199
We could have a cigar together, we could talk about war stories and leadership.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.840
Billy Connolly, because he's the funniest man alive.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:28.000
I absolutely adore the guy, and he has me in hysterics.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.480
In fact, he's he's my go-to if I'm ever feeling of it sort of down in the dumps.
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
Stick some Billy Connolly on.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:41.199
Billy and Albert still is one of the first downloads I had is um when when I got my iPhone, and it's I still listen to it.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.280
Yeah, no, I I love the guy.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:44.000
Who else?
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:45.199
Number three.
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:46.960
God, there's a few people.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.880
I would say no, do you know what?
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:52.079
I can't think of a third.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.719
Well, I think you know, that just those two would be brilliant.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:59.039
Um, and if you weren't running your business or doing your masters, what else would you be doing?
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:00.079
Probably at the pub.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.440
A landlord lying in a gutter somewhere, I don't know.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.880
Well, that's a good sign, right?
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.320
Because you must be doing the right thing.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.400
Listen, Simon Woodward, thank you very, very much indeed for being a guest on AvedMetters.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:11.599
It's been an absolute pleasure.
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:12.639
Thank you, David.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:14.639
Yeah, it's been a real pleasure being on board.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.680
Welcome to the Kirchhoff Partners Podcast Event Method.
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:09.199
Conversations about the realities of running, growing and scaling event businesses today.
00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:16.079
This podcast is for established event business owners who want clarity, confidence, and a different perspective on the road ahead.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:22.640
Our aim is to keep these conversations open, informal, honest, practical, and even sometimes a little bit informative.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:28.320
So you can walk away with fresh insights and ideas you can put into action in your own business.
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:30.800
I'm glad you're here, so let's get started.
00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:41.520
This week I'm joined by Simon Woodward, founder of Polar Bear Live, an event production business that has carved out a fascinating niche working with some of the UK's biggest property developers and destinations.
00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:58.159
With more than 30 years in the events industry, Simon has worked on everything from major live events to public realm activations, helping clients including Battle City Power Station and Olympia London understand not just how to stage events, but how to create spaces that are genuinely event ready.
00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:12.799
We talk about building a business through reputation and relationships, why saying yes and working out the solution afterwards isn't always a bad philosophy, and how Polar Bear's ability to adapt during COVID ultimately opened up an entirely new chapter for the company.
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:18.000
But we also explore Simon's other great fascination, emotional intelligence.
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:28.959
We discuss psychological safety, what makes a genuinely good leader, why curiosity beats judgment, and why understanding people may be one of the most valuable skills any of us can develop.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:32.319
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to the podcast.
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.879
You'll get new episodes before anyone else and keep up with the stories shaping our industry.
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:40.159
This is Event Matters, and this is Simon Woodward.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:41.519
Good morning, Simon.
00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:44.959
Thank you very much indeed for being a guest on the Event Matters podcast.
00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:45.840
Lovely to see you.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:47.120
How are you doing at the moment?
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.840
Very well, thank you, David, and thank you for having me.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:58.239
In similarity with quite a few of the guests, I fear it it's becoming an age thing that I'm speaking to more and more people who have been in the industry for long periods of time.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:01:59.599
It's nearly three decades.
00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.879
Am I right in saying that?
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.120
Yeah, it's 30 years plus, I think.
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:07.200
And for your sins, obviously, and you know, there's no getting away from it.
00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:12.319
You once upon a time worked with Mike Kershaw, both at Business Pursuits and the Concerto Group.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:16.719
You know, not that he's listening and no one else cares, but what was it like working with Mike?
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:20.159
I think I spent 12 years with the concerto group in total.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:26.400
Starting a business pursuit, then with ultimate experience, and eventually ending up with Concerto Live.
00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:31.919
I'm not saying this to blow smoke anywhere, but Mike was probably one of the best bosses I've ever had.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.120
He was an amazing character.
00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.560
In fact, they all were, but Mike particularly was a fantastic boss.
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:42.639
Having had other bosses over the years, I would go back and say that Mike was an inspiration.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:51.680
I think what's so interesting, you know, having worked with him on and off for the last 30 years and then uh working with him, you know, on a consistently two-much basis over the last 10 years.
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:57.680
One of the things I think that he's learned and wasn't afraid to do was have this very collaborative approach within the industry.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:02.960
He didn't have an issue working with competitors if he could see a way to make a deal or do an event better or whatever.
00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:04.639
And I think that's very important indeed.
00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.199
Like the Dell boy of uh the events world.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:07.919
I love that.
00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.360
Yeah, this time next year, as he keeps on telling me every time we speak.
00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:13.840
So you came out of that and you founded Polar Bear.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:18.879
What was the sort of vision for the business, or did it just evolve as opportunities came along?
00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:23.520
I think initially, in my head, it started out as a uh an event production business.
00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:26.159
Which was from your experience with Clive, wasn't it?
00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:27.280
Yeah, basically.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.520
I mean, iteration of Polar Bear was with a pair of business associates.
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.439
We had a warehouse for a kit, so we started out as an event production company.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.159
Like so many event production companies do, I guess.
00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:38.719
Yeah.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.439
It sort of then morphed, we parted ways.
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:47.280
I kept the name, and it sort of remained as an event production company, but it's really sort of morphed from that.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.599
We are still event production, but we sort of we get involved in the management side as well.
00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.280
So my background is event management, and I can't help myself sometimes.
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:02.159
I wanted to sort of sit in the background with the production side of things, but yeah, I guess now it's probably a 50-50 split.
00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:09.599
There are clients that we work with where we manage the events, and there are clients where we work with where we are full-on production technical services.
00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:10.080
Yeah.
00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.759
And you said that the consultancy is a big part of this, isn't it?
00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:16.800
Sort of advising clients how to do their events.
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:17.360
Yes.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:20.160
The consultancy is a great part of the business, actually.
00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:25.920
We work with a lot of property developers, and so we advise them on how to become event ready.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.759
So with the property developers, they all have a public realm piece.
00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:47.199
There are public areas that they want to activate in the future, and we come on board, hopefully, early enough to say if you want to activate this particular part of the site, these are the things that you need to be considering in order to get yourself ready for production companies like me to come in and to produce events.
00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:53.120
You need to be thinking about power, water, drainage, anchoring points, you know, this, that, and the other, yeah, Wi-Fi.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.600
So we sort of sit there in that respect, making sure that they're event ready.
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:08.319
If they're not from that world, you know, I was speaking to someone on the other day, and I go, Oh, yeah, it was a company I'm working with in Belfast, and they said one of the biggest issues they had in venues was power, you know, pure and simple.
00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.519
I mean, power is one of my biggest bugbears.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:15.600
You know, you get all these sites opening and they want to do this, that, and the other.
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.040
You know, they've got all these amazing ideas, and you go, brilliant, where's the power?
00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:20.639
And they go, Oh, we haven't got any.
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.079
And you sort of sit there going, Well, okay, well, okay, that's good.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:26.879
That's my first problem, then, is how do I get power to here?
00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.759
You know, aren't you we can't use generators anymore.
00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.240
You know, there's certain sites where even in the physical sense, a generator isn't possible.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:40.079
They're dirty, disgusting, noisy, huge, you know, and it's just not an option.
00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:46.240
So I feel for sites that haven't considered it because uh retrofitting is incredibly expensive.
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:52.720
I mean, in some instances, you'd be at ground zero, as it were, and you'd say that before you do this, these are the things you need to think about.
00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:54.079
Well, we hope.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:55.439
It's not always the case.
00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:00.879
A lot of the projects that we've been involved with, we have been in a position to advise in advance.
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:06.639
There's a couple of clients that we've got at the moment that, you know, they're complete, they're built, and they are open.
00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:12.879
And we're now saying to them, this won't work unless you can, you know, bring power to this particular point.
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.439
You know, lovely idea, but it ain't gonna work.
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.199
So we've sort of kind of glossed over the services that Polar Bear do.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:26.639
But if you were gonna give the elevator pitch for what the business actually does, how would you describe Polar Bear Live as a business?
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.639
I would describe this as an event production company, but with a twist.
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.199
We mainly work for property developers.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:39.600
We understand their needs in terms of public realm activation, building launches, topping out ceremonies, etc.
00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:47.839
And I think we position ourselves in that little niche where we can deal with most things that are thrown our way through our little black book.
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:58.000
I think it's very rare in this world that an event business, I mean, occasionally it happens, sometimes in the sort of pharma sphere, but you know, people say, Oh, well, we work for the event services.
00:06:58.079 --> 00:06:59.600
I always think to myself, yeah, sure you do.
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.079
Everyone claims they work in the financial services industry.
00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:03.519
That's just simply not true.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:17.839
But you've clearly targeted the building construction because for an event production company, it's got a natural lifespan, hasn't it, in terms of going from the placemaking or the space making or whatever, all the way through to doing events, you know, the topping out ceremonies or whatever it might be.
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.160
That kind of works for you, doesn't it?
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:32.240
Yeah, I mean, I think through our work, Battersea Power Station, which, you know, I think is one of our longest in terms of duration projects, um, that's given us the platform to take to other people.
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:41.439
So what we've done with them has given us a model that we now take to other developers and say, well, actually, there's a lot more that we can help you with than just events.
00:07:41.519 --> 00:08:08.560
You know, we've done that as he, we've built semi-permanent structures, we've built semi-permanent or permanent spaces, we've installed public artworks, we've created marketing suites for them, we've done their sort of large-scale public festivals right the way through to, I think the simplest thing we've done for them is building a set of shelves that actually reflects the Geary building, is probably the simplest job we've done down there for them.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.800
And so we've taken that model and saying, right, what we've done at Battersea, we can do for you as well.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:16.560
And so we picked up Olympia as a client, Barclay Holmes, St.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:17.040
James, St.
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:17.600
Williams, St.
00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:25.519
Edwards, they're a client of ours now, the Voyage Exchange, and we've replicated what we do at Battersea for all of those developers, for all of those property owners.
00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:31.759
And that seems to be where, yes, you say it's a niche, and it is a niche, but we speak their language as well.
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.799
Yeah, which really helps because it's a different sector.
00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:35.600
Completely.
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:43.039
And when you're working alongside developers and major construction firms, they kind of want to know that they're in safe hands.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:50.159
Because I think probably the worst thing is the bureaucracy and health and safety side of things when you're working alongside massive construction companies.
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.600
They don't want, you know, a little event company coming along and trampling all over their construction site.
00:08:55.679 --> 00:09:08.559
But if you speak their language and you understand what it is that they require from you, they are much more open-armed letting you do what you need to do for the client, the end client, who is, you know, the building owner, for example.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.559
The building owner wants you to do something.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.600
The construction company don't want you anywhere near them.
00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:20.000
If you speak their language, they are much more receptive to what it is that the end client has asked you to do.
00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.320
And so we've learned the hard way sometimes.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.879
Was COVID the sort of launch point to growing the business exponentially?
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:33.120
Because obviously, without live events, without production, you know, you could use the production skills to advise businesses on their spaces, couldn't you?
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.399
And that was essentially the skill that you had that other people didn't.
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.840
I think in a weird sort of way, you've hit the nail on the head there.
00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:44.720
COVID did teach us a big lesson, which was to pivot to go, hang on a minute.
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.879
You know, we've got a big team of freelance, you know, skilled workers.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:57.360
And because we were working with developers, and I had all these guys screaming for work during COVID times, we put them to other uses.
00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:59.440
You know, we've got all sorts on our books.
00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:06.879
And so we said, well, okay, well, we're not doing events at the moment, but we can, I don't know, transfer your show apartment.
00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:15.679
You know, we can lay floors, we can paint and decorate, we can put up, you know, stud walling, we can tile, we can plumb, we can rewire.
00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:22.399
So let's move all these guys that are screaming for work, let's move them over to the building sector.
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:24.240
That kept us alive during COVID.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.399
Gave us a another string to our bow.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:32.960
And we actually did, in the grand scheme of things for a small event company, we did all right in COVID year.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.320
We didn't do too badly.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.720
We did uh uh probably a fifth of our turnover, but we still made money.
00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:43.120
I guess you get asked a question, the answer's always yes, and then you figure out how to do it.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.519
But I guess that really was quite literally.
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:47.759
Oh, by the way, Simon, could you do this?
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.279
Uh yeah, sure, I can do that.
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:52.080
Because you had the skills, you know, in the team to do it.
00:10:52.399 --> 00:11:00.000
We did, and uh, you know, I think everyone relies on their little black book of who to call in an emergency or who to call when you need something.
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:06.399
I'm lucky that we have a really good little black book, but I think it's the willingness to say yes that helped.
00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:11.519
But it's also, you know, just positioning yourself and saying, right, you know, we're desperate right now.
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.399
What can we do that is going to help you?
00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:20.799
So we were fitting glass screens to desks at one point so that people could come back to work.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:30.480
We were decorating show apartments, we were putting up stud walls, we demolished an old marketing suite, you know, it was anything that we could get our hands on.
00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.639
Basically walking around various offices and saying, What can we do?
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:39.200
Because I've got all these guys standing around doing nothing, you know, they live hand to mouth.
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:40.080
How can we help?
00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:41.039
How can we assist?
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.600
You know, and we got work that way.
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.159
And I guess you talked about your little black book, which I'm sure is not so little anymore.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:56.720
Obviously, you don't do a lot of marketing, you've already said that, but and you get a lot of recommendations because obviously you work for Bath Seed, it's a very visible project.
00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.720
And recommendations are so important.
00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:04.000
Do we sometimes overlook reputation within the events world and concentrate too much on sales and marketing?
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:05.440
Or what do you think about that?
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:07.440
I think sales and marketing works.
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:14.000
I mean, you know, Sam Gill was a big fan of marketing, you know, a brochure and a website, and that worked.
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.399
I think we do overlook that reputational piece of recommendation.
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.919
I think that's been integral to Play the Bay Live.
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:23.679
We don't do any marketing at all.
00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:26.559
And like I said, don't look at our website because it's awful.
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.200
But I am in the in the process of updating it.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.440
But every single bit of work that we've ever got has come through recommendation.
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:38.000
So I nurture those relationships to make sure that that continues to happen.
00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:51.360
One of those relationships, or one of those that came back was the limpow, which you mentioned previously, which came from the recommendation and you got the gig almost immediately, which is you're kind of the ultimate proof that that it's the most powerful form of marketing anyway.
00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.039
Yeah, I mean, again, it comes down to nurturing those relationships.
00:12:55.200 --> 00:13:00.399
So getting to know everybody within a particular business has been a big part of it.
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:04.080
So we integrated ourselves within Latter C years ago.
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:14.320
We have a desk at their offices, I get to know everybody, and when people leave as they they disappear off to other businesses, usually within the property sector, and they take us with them.
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:28.320
And that's what happened with Olympia, that's what happened with EcoWorld, that's what happened with Barclay Holmes, is they're all ex-people that worked at Lattersea Power Station that have seen what we do, and something happens within their business.
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.480
They go, Ah, I know a man that can do that.
00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:31.759
You know, that's been amazing.
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:35.919
But it does take a lot of work, and uh, you know, you have to nurture those relationships.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:40.960
I mean, Olympia must have been the most amazing gig because the transformation has been staggering, isn't it?
00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:42.399
It's a brilliant one to land.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:46.000
It's a fantastic side, you know, and it's not entirely finished yet.
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:47.200
There's still more to come there.
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:55.039
You know, Olympia Way, which was the old, I think when you were a contractor at Olympia, you used to have to drive down Olympia Way into the car park.
00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.559
That's now all pedestrianised and about 20 metres wide.
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.120
When that's fully open, that's going to be an amazing space.
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.039
Next door to Pizza Express, wasn't it?
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:04.159
I seem to remember.
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.240
That's right, yeah, there was a Pizza Express there.
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:11.360
They've now got wonderful restaurants down there already, but the actual Olympia Way isn't fully open yet.
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.840
They've then built on the roof of the building in between the two Grand and National Halls.
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.759
You've got a lovely promenade up there with restaurants and bars on either side.
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:24.480
You've got an event venue that uh holds 3,800 people.
00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.240
There will be theatre that will hold 1,200 people.
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.360
So when that's all fully open, it's gonna be an amazing space.
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:36.879
It's got two really strong public realm areas that we can help activate.
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.919
And so they brought us in to help them in the future.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:48.320
We'll be looking at things like Christmas, summer activations, you know, activations that tie in very nicely with whatever's going on in the halls.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.840
Um we did a piece with them that was all about hyper Japan.
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.879
Hyper Japan is is uh an event that goes into the grand and the national walls every year.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.240
So we did a whole Japanese piece with them, which is still ongoing actually.
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.559
We've got uh gigs that happen there.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.879
So it's a brilliant, brilliant site.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:05.919
Just love that.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:10.799
I mean, you know, but people pay for a decision-making process that was that quick.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:18.159
When we spoke before, you said that you don't spend a lot of time worrying about rigid processes, you're more of a problem solver.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.679
And again, this comes back to the saying yes and worrying about how to do it later on.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:22.639
Has that always been you?
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.120
Has that always been the Sun Woodward philosophy?
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.519
Yeah, I think Mike will probably tell you that.
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.519
I'm not very good at following processes.
00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:39.120
I would like more, and uh, I've just bought another team member on board, a full-time member of staff who is gonna help to get our processes in order.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:56.320
Actually, if you looked at my filing, my filing's good, my consistency is good, as in, you know, everything follows a format, but I would say I'm more of a problem solver than I am a following processes kind of guy, and that seems to have worked most of the time.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:59.200
But I guess that's much as anything else, Simon.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.080
That part of that is the people that you surround yourself with, you know.
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:02.799
Do you know what I mean?
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.120
You may not be process-driven, but other people will be.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:16.879
You said you've got, you know, great team of people that not necessarily are full-timers with you, but you know a man who can instantly having that sort of network of people must be just vital for you.
00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:24.559
Well, I think it was Andrew Charles who said to me, You're only as good as your weakest supplier, which is a mantra that I actually take with me.
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.039
Is that the only thing you've taken from Andrew Charles?
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.039
That's a really good philosophy to live by.
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.480
You know, when you're working with other suppliers, only work with the best.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.240
And yes, they do have processes, probably stronger than mine.
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.240
They really carry the can in that respect.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:43.039
We're helping someone at the moment literally build a business from the ground up.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.720
He's got a couple of really good contracts that are giving him a nice income.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:55.039
And he's just going to get to a point if he can keep on delivering the way he's delivering, i.e., really well, where he's just gonna fall over because there are just literally not enough hours in a day.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.720
And we've said to him, look, you're in an unbelievable position right now.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.160
Just surround yourself with a brilliant team, and very quickly you'll have a very successful company.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:05.599
I think that's so true.
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:06.799
Completely, 100%.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:14.640
If you've got trust in your team and they trust you, and you at least share the same values, I think, then that's the making of a great team.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.640
The sharing the values, I think, is really important.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.000
That's the definition of creating a culture within the business and all that sort of stuff.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.480
It's it's that togetherness which is so important.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.519
Yeah, it's always, you know, an employee, you're a colleague.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:32.799
That was one of the things that separates Mike Kershaw from a lot of bad managers, is you could always go to him with a problem.
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.480
And it was never your fault, it was how can I help?
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:44.400
And I think if you have that sort of that culture, that attitude, that trust within your team, then you know, you can build great things from that.
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.599
The other thing that really worries me more in today's world is, I mean, you make a very good point.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.960
You know, you could go and see Mike.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:59.119
I mean, we've got clients who've got completely remote teams, and it's very difficult to get those remote teams to kind of work coherently together.
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:06.640
And we were discussing this with someone the other day, and it was just interesting that the younger members of our team are really suffering with stress and anxiety.
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:12.000
And I think it's more because they're not in an office environment than the fact that they're sitting at home.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:20.640
They haven't got the opportunity to go and speak to that person and say, I'm struggling today, or how do I do this, or can I come with you on this site visit, or whatever it might be.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.640
They're not learning the way that we learned.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.599
No, and I think it's going to change in that respect.
00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.119
Psychological safety is a huge thing in my world.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.319
And you don't get that from remote working, I don't think.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:40.160
And the trust and the them being able to knock on someone's door and say, you know, Mike, I've got a solution, but I've got a problem and I need your help with it.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.319
Yeah, you can't get that from remote working.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:49.759
I'm not saying that we shouldn't have remote working because I think it's the new norm and we work remotely a lot.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:59.759
And I wouldn't want to sort of change that, but you do lose an element of trust and an element of the psychological safety that I think is really important within a company.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:04.240
It gets lost when you're doing, you know, stuff like this, like we're doing now, where we're on a Zoom call.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.599
It's difficult to kind of keep that with remote working, I think.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:13.119
I just worry about how you're talking about teams who are suffering from burnout and stress.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:18.079
I can't see how you can help that or alleviate that without that human contact.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:23.039
And it comes back to what we were talking about the other day about you know everyone going remote during COVID.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:30.880
And I was saying, don't believe for one second that this is going to be the new norm, because we're human beings, we need to connect, we need that social interaction.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.599
You know, I've got two kids, one of who's a chef, which is great.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.160
So she has to go to her place of work, which is brilliant.
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:43.359
But the other one is applying for jobs at the moment, and you know, there's the different packages she's getting through, and I'm just going, wow, you know, two days working from home.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.400
She's 22 years old.
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:51.359
I wanted to go out and learn quickly and to be surrounded herself on people because the quicker you learn from people, the quicker you move up, and you know, the more successful you can be.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.960
Um, the other thing that has obviously changed considerably since COVID is AI.
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:01.680
I know that you are an adopter of AI at our advanced years.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.319
You know, I've well, I know you use Claude, you use chat.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.079
Do you think it's really helped productivity?
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:07.519
I mean, I would say yes, 100%.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:09.359
Yes and no.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.559
I mean, I don't think I actually really know that much about it in the great scheme of things.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.440
I mean, I see people using it to their advantage all the time.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.079
There's a couple of things that I've used it for recently.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:31.920
CGIs, annoyingly, for the designers that I work with, it can be quite useful to quickly run up a CGI, whereas I used to pay someone, you know, three or four hundred quid a day to create those for me.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.640
So, you know, you can now stick a photograph into Chat GPT and say make it look like this.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:40.079
20 seconds later, you've got your CGI that you can send to a client.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:41.680
I mean, that's amazing.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.920
I've drawn up employment contracts through through AI.
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.279
I've drawn up amazing checklists through AI.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.440
My worry with it is it's not wholly accurate that you still can check the work.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.799
I've got a supplier that I work with who is insisting on using AI to generate quotes at the moment.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.440
And I had to say to him yesterday, you've got to stop doing this.
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.039
You need to go back to the original way.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:05.839
And he said, Why?
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.680
I said, Because it's so obvious that A, there's the consistency.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.559
Every single one of your quotes is in a different format for a start.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.640
I said, Have you actually checked what it's saying?
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:22.160
Because I don't believe you have, because the inconsistencies between what you're charging me for this and what you're charging me for that are vast.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.279
Um I get that it's quicker, but I just don't like it.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.039
There's too much information there.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.160
I just need to know how much this is going to cost.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.039
Not why it's going to cost me, but how much is it going to cost?
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:34.720
We can deal with the why later.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.599
So there are things about it that bear in mind, I've only just scratched the surface.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.039
I'm sure there are people listening to this now thinking AI is brilliant.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:44.559
It does this, that, and the other formula.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.920
I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to AI.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.880
I literally just sparked us again.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:57.039
I had a great quote the other day from someone who said it's not AI that is going to take young people's jobs.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.839
It's people who know how to use AI that are going to take young people's jobs.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.720
Jules.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.160
And I agree with you there.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:22.559
That's uh one of the things that I thought, you know, if you're going to start a business in AI now, start a business that instructs AI, if I had someone in my little black book now that could do all of that for me, and all I had to do was pick up the phone and say, tell AI to do this, and it would churn out exactly what I'm looking for, that I would pay for that service.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:37.680
So just away from Polebear and AI and tech and all that sort of stuff, the one of the most sort of amazing things that you told me last time we spoke that you are taking a master's degree in applied emotional intelligence, which is like, wow, AI didn't even know that was a thing.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.440
So emotional intelligence, I think, is one of the most important things in business.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.599
You have to have empathy with the people you're doing business with or working with or whatever it might be.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.599
What fascinated you so much about it?
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:48.880
This could be a rabbit hole.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:49.440
I appreciate that.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.759
But it's but I think it's an important rabbit hole.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:23:00.000
So I did a practitioner's course in NLP, for those of you who don't know, neurolinguistic programming, or as I call it now, nothing like psychology.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.440
This was in 2012 because I was intrigued.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:12.000
That then led to an interest in human behaviour, and I did a master's degree in communication behavior and credibility analysis.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.920
And that I think I completed that in 2020, 2023, 2024, something like that.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.400
Anyway, so that was like a proper deep dive into human behavior.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.920
One of the modules on that course was emotional intelligence, and that piqued my interest.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:33.200
And as a result, I became a facilitator in emotional intelligence in testing.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.799
So Cliff Lansley, Dr.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:40.559
Cliff Lansley, who is one of my mentors, he's developed a new measure of emotional intelligence called eFactor.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.680
He's licensed me to deliver that and facilitate.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.200
So if you came to me and said, What's my EI score?
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:48.799
I could put you through a test.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.680
It would give you a score out of 200, similar to IQ.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.480
Let's say your national average, so you're going to be roughly around about 100, 110.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.799
You could come to me and say, I want to be better.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.119
I want to be more emotionally intelligent.
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.480
The difference between EQ and IQ is that you can train EQ emotional intelligence.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:14.720
So, you know, through neuroplasticity and uh, you know, the human brain willingness to learn, I can train you to be more emotionally intelligent.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:19.759
I can create a personal development plan for you that would, let's say, last six months.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.279
And at the end of it, we could retest you and see how you've improved.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.920
You know, we can get you up to sort of 140, 150.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:32.160
Once you're in the half 140 mark, as with IQ, you are in the realms of genius.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:41.839
Do you think if people came to you and said, listen, I think I have a flaw in my management technique or I have a flaw in my sales technique or or whatever it might be, that this would help potentially?
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:42.960
Yes, 100%.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:54.400
You know, it's it's proven there's so much research out there now, so many studies going into EQ at the moment, and EQ in the workplace, particularly, so emotional intelligence to the workplace.
00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:03.680
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the way forward in terms of leadership training has to start with with emotional intelligence.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:09.440
You know, you cannot create psychologically safe environments at work without emotional intelligence.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.920
You have to be able to manage your own emotions and other people's emotions.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:18.480
And emotions are present at work every single day, whether you realize it or not.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.839
You know, and a lot of leaders don't take that into account.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:22.559
But they're there.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:24.319
Your staff have emotions.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:36.559
And if you don't know how to read those emotions and react to those emotions and also deal with your own emotions, then I think you're lacking skills that lead to that psychologically safe environment.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.519
How difficult is it in a remote environment then?
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.240
Because it hopefully no one's 100% remote.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:51.920
But if you're only in the office two days a week or whatever it might be, from a leadership technique, that must be really difficult to have that empathy, that emotional intelligence with someone you're not seeing all the time.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.359
I mean, it adds a layer of difficulty to it.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:08.079
That, you know, one of the skills that we can teach is how to read people, not just through being with them, but how to read what you're saying, your body language, your facial expressions.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:16.000
So there's still a way that I can connect with you, even online, through being able to detect what's going on with you right now.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:22.079
And yes, that's useful, but nothing is ever going to reply that one-to-one interaction.
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:30.960
Do you find yourself, as a consequence, judging people when you meet them, or you know, if you're working with someone new, do you find yourself sort of saying, Oh, interesting.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:35.599
I wonder, you know, I wonder what's going on with your life at the moment, or I can see what's going on with your life at the moment.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.799
Yes and no.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.279
I mean, it's not a skill that is is kind of there all the time.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.119
It takes a lot of concentration to be able to read people.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:49.519
You're talking about six communication channels that have to be read simultaneously.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.279
So it's not something you're just doing all the time.
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.880
You actually have to sort of switch it on.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.880
What it's done is it's made me more curious.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.319
I'm more curious about what's going on with other people.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.000
I'm more susceptible to other people's moods.
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.680
You know, it's like, okay, you know, I can see you're not happy right now.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:06.720
Let's talk about it.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.759
Let's discuss this.
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.039
I can just read you.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.960
There's something going on with you right now.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:13.839
Let's address this now and get it out of the way.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.160
There's that great line from Ted Lasso, isn't it?
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:17.920
Be curious, not judgmental.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.759
So I tell you what, Ted Lasso is absolutely brilliant.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.759
It is the most emotionally intelligent program out there to date.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.799
And that Dart scene where he's saying, Be curious, that is emotional intelligence.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.400
Be curious, not judgmental.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.279
You know, remove those biases, and we all have them.
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:42.480
It's about recognizing what your bias is in this particular situation and suspending it for that particular moment.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:46.880
You know, I'm looking at you, let's say you've got a spider's web tattooed across your forehead.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:53.519
You know, immediate judgmental bias is, you know, this guy's, you know, obviously a bit of a psychopath.
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:54.480
Well, he might not be.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:58.480
You've got to develop these alternative hypotheses when it comes to bias.
00:27:58.559 --> 00:27:59.519
And, you know, Dr.
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:01.279
Cliff Lansley uses this regularly.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:10.640
You're in traffic and someone shoots past you and cuts in front of you, and your immediate reaction is to wind the window down and you know speak one's mind, right?
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.960
But develop the alternative hypothesis.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:14.079
Maybe he's in a hurry.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:23.759
You know, maybe his wife's just gone into labour and he's trying to get home and you know, he needs to get there quickly and that extra bit of time that he's saved by getting in front of you and cutting in front of you.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:24.960
Maybe that's why.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:30.799
And so, you know, suspend the judgment, develop that alternative hypothesis, and just go, do you know what?
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:36.079
There's no time for this, because it could be a perfectly logical explanation for why he's doing that.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.759
I would love to have taken your EQ test before I started doing these podcasts, whatever it was a year and a half ago.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:48.720
Because I think the most interesting thing is how much my curiosity has piqued over various different things over the last year and a half.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:49.680
I mean, it's fascinating.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:59.119
I'm just really interested by asking questions and finding out about people, and not just necessarily from a business point of view, but yes, that's really interesting too, and hopefully it's interesting for the people who listen.
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.599
But it's people ultimately, and I think it's so important to be interested in people.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.559
Absolutely.
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.200
And it does serve a good purpose for you.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:13.440
You know, if you show interest in others, uh you get to know them that little bit better, you know, from a business point of view.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:19.440
If that's a client, you know, and you listen, you know, that's the really important thing is to listen.
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:20.960
Listen to what they're saying.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.519
You know, I know a lot of people, I I mean, I love to talk.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:33.200
One of the things that I have to stop myself from doing is talking too much and listening to people and actually digesting what it is they're saying and them responding.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:38.960
But it can really benefit you, you know, with clients and suppliers alike, is hear them out.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.960
You know, don't interrupt them and you know, oh, we can do this for you, we can do that for you.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.160
Listen to what they're telling you.
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.880
30 years in, what do you see the future of Polar Bear Live, future of Sun Woodward?
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:50.880
You must be excited for the next chapter.
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.519
Yeah, I mean, we're really busy at the moment, which is great, probably busier than we've ever been.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.039
And I feel like Polar Bear Live is annoyingly, after 14 years, is just starting to get going in the last four years.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:11.839
But having said that, as a result of what happened in 2020, and then you going, oh, here's an opportunity, but almost by accident.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:17.039
Yeah, by accident, instinct kicked in, and I made sure that we still had a business.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:24.720
I think, like a lot of people, very nearly lost it, had a couple of uh lucky turns, I guess, but most of it was self-generated.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.200
So yeah, so the business is going well at the moment.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:28.960
I want to continue that.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:30.559
I'm also studying.
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:38.960
Is it coaching or is it I've just started another business with one of my cohorts, which is leadership training, with a focus on emotional intelligence and psychological safety.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.839
So that's kind of building in the background.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.400
I guess what's next for Simon Woodward?
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.839
I would like to keep both going.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:31:04.400
I would like to keep Halo Bear alive and running, but I would also like to get into some leadership training and actually sort of impart some of the knowledge that I've gained over the last uh seven years and actually help people to sort of develop that psychologically safe environment in their workplaces that will enable them to grow.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:26.880
And again, if anyone's listening to this, if you look at something called Project Aristotle, Project Aristotle was commissioned by Google many years ago, and they looked at what made great teams in their business, and what they found was that the teams that outperformed all the others were the teens with the highest level of psychological safety.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:37.440
And so if I can teach that to businesses and say, This has been proven to work time and time again, not just Google, but other companies have shown this to work.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.359
We can take you from being good to great.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:42.960
That's what I really want to do.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.079
Yeah, you're so right.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.640
I think there are people who are born with leadership skills and they probably have very high EQ as a consequence.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.279
But I think I do think it is something you can learn leadership.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:04.400
Some people would always be crap leaders, but as you say, if you're on the cusp, you can probably help me to get to a place where I'm a more than adequate leader and I have empathy with my employees and I feel more comfortable in that role.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:04.960
Yeah.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:10.480
A lot of leaders are promoted to leader without the skills being a leader.
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.440
And it's those leadership skills that we want to try and help promote.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.440
You know, you may have fallen into a leadership role through promotion, for example, but that doesn't mean to say you're a great leader.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:32.240
And so I think we can help people develop that and, you know, turn the productivity of, I don't know, let's say it's a department, turn that productivity in from good to great, you know.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.920
And Google have proved it, you know, they're not a small company.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.079
You know, so that's where I see me going over the next few years.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:43.359
I'm not saying I'm a brilliant leader myself, but practice what I preach, I guess.
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:51.440
I make mistakes like everybody, and it's about learning from those mistakes and trying to be better for me, but I'd like to sort of help other people do that.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.000
And that's again, I harp back to Mr.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:00.160
Kershaw, but he did create one of the most psychologically safe environments that I've ever been in.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.200
And I've I've had some horrendous bosses over the years.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:08.960
Mike wasn't one of them, but he did create an environment where it was okay to say what was on your mind.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:13.279
Uh, it was okay to admit to a mistake, it was okay to ask for help.
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.440
You know, those all those elements are lead to psychological safety.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:26.319
I can direct you to uh an amazing book by Amy Edmondson, I think I've got it probably somewhere around here, called The Fearless Organization.
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:31.440
So Amy Edmond Edmondson developed this concept of psychological safety.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:38.880
And in the book, she talks about all the businesses that have failed because of the lack of psychological safety.
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:58.400
And when you read that and you sort of digest how things went wrong for those businesses, and she talks about VW and the emissions scandal, she talks about NASA and the two big disasters, you know, and they were all as a result of people not being able to speak up and say what they thought.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.960
Before we finish, we always finish with a rapid fire round, which I've got, I'm looking forward to this one.
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:09.039
So, most influential person in your career could be live or dead, but someone who's influenced your career.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.519
Not trying to buy promote, but it's Kerl Short.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:12.559
Business book.
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.079
I've got several here that we could have a look at.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.840
Working with emotional intelligence.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.679
I mean, that's been around for a long time.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.840
Adaptive listening by uh Nicole Lernbrum.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:26.880
We're gonna go through your your whole top shelf there.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.480
Well, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking around because there's some amazing ones that I've read.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:36.079
But yeah, emotional intelligence by Daniel Weldman as well, poisonous people, applied empathy.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.079
See, I would put Mike Kershaw in the poisonous people bracket, but anyway.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:41.679
Your favourite movie?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.480
Ooh.
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.280
Probably uh Shawshank.
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.480
Yeah, Fares.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:53.599
One of the biggest box office flops of all time, Shawshank Redemption, and yet one of the most successful movies uh of all time now.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.239
Incredible.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.599
Tim Robbins, brilliant.
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:58.159
Favourite drink after a hard day's work?
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.119
Ooh, probably a glass of red.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:03.280
Yeah, I'm with you there.
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:08.320
Uh small mountain you were dying, little things that really, really drive you mad.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.400
How long have you got?
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.719
At the moment, line bikes.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:16.960
Story behind the line bike hatred?
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:24.480
We've had one of those electric bike bays put outside, literally outside my house, and they are everywhere.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.360
They're all over in the middle of the road, blocking my neighbour's driveway, wanting up the street.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.920
And we called the council yesterday and they're not interested.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:32.960
Yeah, of course they're not.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.719
They need to spend their money elsewhere.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.559
Your passion away from polar bear?
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.719
Ooh, well, emotional intelligence.
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:41.760
Yeah, obviously.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.280
Uh scuba diving.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.639
Really, which would also, I suspect, be your hidden talent.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:47.599
Oh, is it?
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.719
I don't know about a talent.
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:50.880
I don't know whether I'm any good at it, but I do it a lot.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.880
Everyone who is a scuba diver says to me it's the most amazing thing in the entire world.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.079
Oh, it's it's fantastic.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.079
I'm going in about four weeks' time, actually.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:00.159
Um, dogs or cats?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.239
God, I've got all of them.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:03.840
Yeah, you and me both.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.519
Cats don't give up monkeys, though.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.239
And the three people you'd have to dinner and why.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.760
They can be dead or alive.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.199
I've always loved the idea of speaking to Winston Churchill.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.119
And he'd enjoy that glass of red with you.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:16.800
He'd enjoy the glass of red with me.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.199
We could have a cigar together, we could talk about war stories and leadership.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.840
Billy Connolly, because he's the funniest man alive.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:28.000
I absolutely adore the guy, and he has me in hysterics.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.480
In fact, he's he's my go-to if I'm ever feeling of it sort of down in the dumps.
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
Stick some Billy Connolly on.
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:41.199
Billy and Albert still is one of the first downloads I had is um when when I got my iPhone, and it's I still listen to it.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.280
Yeah, no, I I love the guy.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:44.000
Who else?
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:45.199
Number three.
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:46.960
God, there's a few people.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.880
I would say no, do you know what?
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:52.079
I can't think of a third.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.719
Well, I think you know, that just those two would be brilliant.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:59.039
Um, and if you weren't running your business or doing your masters, what else would you be doing?
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:00.079
Probably at the pub.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.440
A landlord lying in a gutter somewhere, I don't know.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.880
Well, that's a good sign, right?
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.320
Because you must be doing the right thing.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.400
Listen, Simon Woodward, thank you very, very much indeed for being a guest on AvedMetters.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:11.599
It's been an absolute pleasure.
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:12.639
Thank you, David.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:14.639
Yeah, it's been a real pleasure being on board.
