Willingness Before Certainty: Leading Higher Education Through Change with Dr. Eric Klein

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institutions, will often create complexity for very understandable reasons, right?
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A unique circumstance arises, so we create an exception.
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Another issue emerges that we didn't expect, so we add a process.
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Something else goes wrong, and then we develop a policy to prevent it from happening again.
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Each individual decision in and of itself might be perfectly reasonable.
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But over time, those decisions accumulate.
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Welcome to the Engaged by Design podcast, where we help you engage more learners more effectively.
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Today on the podcast, Vernon sits down with Dr.
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Eric Klein, who is an assistant provost at ACE, or American College of Education, and they'll talk about leading in this complex environment we live in right now, including issues of AI and process development and, and policy that helps us to teach and learn a little more effectively in this tough environment.
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Without further ado, let's jump into this conversation, with Vernon and with Eric.
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We are so happy to have Dr.
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Eric Klein join us on the Engaged by Design podcast today, and I think you're gonna find this as an interesting conversation as well as, uh, get ready to see a really nice work that's been put out there for higher ed and strategy.
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So Eric, welcome to the Engaged by Design podcast.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It's great to be here today.
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I really appreciated the invite, and, excited to join you.
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Fantastic.
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Now, would you talk a little bit about what you do right now so folks can g- get a little, get to know you a little bit better?
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Absolutely, yeah.
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So, in my full-time job, I'm an assistant provost, at American College of Education by the way, it's a really, it's a wonderful institution, that's growing.
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ACE is its...
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a- as it goes by, has grown 20% year over year, pretty consistently.
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And so in fact, in the last five years, uh, the enrollment has doubled and it continues to grow.
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And the institution does, does very, very well also just from a student success, student, retention, and graduation perspective.
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But at ACE, as an assistant provost, I lead strategy for a number of things, including doctoral research, student success initiatives, as well as academic support services.
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You could think library, writing center, tutoring, career services- Mm-hmm disability support services.
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I also advise on emerging trends in higher education, including, you know, artificial intelligence and other just- Mm-hmm organizational transformation type of opportunities.
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I lead some cross-functional initiatives across academic affairs and student services and institutional effectiveness.
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And, and just in general, you know, collaborate very closely with our, our chief academic officer and provost.
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And I was thinking too, you know, I actually am writing an essay.
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I have a substack that I call The Academic Strategist, um, and I'd welcome folks to come find me on that.
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Absolutely
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I'm writing, I'm writing one, uh, right now about, about boards.
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And I, you know, you asked about me and I could just share with you, and maybe in a bit of a humorous way, I have, uh, my own board of trustees here at home.
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My wife, Allison, who's just incredibly wonderful and supportive.
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My daughter, Remy, who just turned eight, who is nearly perfect.
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Uh, they're, they're my board of directors.
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But, but in more seriousness, like, just great life.
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I live in San Diego, wonderful family.
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I'm a diehard New York Jets fan.
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We won the first game of our season, which is very rare, so-
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Okay
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feeling optimistic.
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It's,
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you got, you have to be a diehard to be a Jets fan.
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Yeah.
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You have to be- I'm feeling optimistic.
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I'm feeling optimistic about that.
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Um, but yeah, that's a little about me.
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I've been in higher education for over 20 years in a variety of roles.
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And I really love, what I'm doing now.
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You know, our paths are sort of similar in the past that, you know, we both have a community college roots.
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You were at, uh- Yeah Grossmont-Cuyamaca-
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Yep
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Community College District.
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And, what are the things that you brought from your community college experience into your university experience that you think are valuable and really add to what you do now?
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Yeah, I love my experience at Grossmont.
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Yeah, it's a great question.
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I think it really fundamentally actually shaped the way that I think about, higher education.
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One of the things that I really valued about my time there, and I think just community colleges in general, is how close they are to the reality of student lives.
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You encounter students who are working full-time, they're raising families, they're returning to education after years away.
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I met many students who were, you know, learning a new language.
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They were navigating financial uncertainty, and really just, I think, trying to figure out whether higher education is gonna create a better future, you know, for them and their families.
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And so when you work in that environment, you-- I think you develop a much just broader understanding of what access really means, my time at Grossmont and later in the district, I think I learned a lot about things like institutional agility.
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I mean, community colleges, they have to remain closely connected to the communities that they serve.
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As you know, workforce needs change, demographics change, economic conditions are changing, as are the needs of students.
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And so I think very often, especially at a community college, you're responding to those changes, but with really finite resources.
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And so you gotta have, I think, as a leader, a certain amount of pragmatism, when it comes to that.
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But yeah, I think it's really, it's really helped inform my career, and I think it, as a strategy leader, it kinda helps me to keep strategy connected to action.
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You know, two thoughts that- Yeah as you said this.
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The first one is, you know, that is one of the things that we can say in higher education is that literally we help transform students' lives for good.
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Yes.
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For good.
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Not, not just transforming their lives- That's right to something else that, that they don't want.
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Transforming it for good.
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The other one is I think there's a value in having worked in different sectors of higher education.
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I think it brings a type of perspectivism, a type of, viewpoint, and a type of, understanding of more options, more strategies that are available.
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And I'm sure that informs what you're doing.
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And speaking of which, you have written, well, it's forthcoming.
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Yeah.
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It's forthcoming.
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Yeah.
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You've written, written a book.
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T- talk up- tell us about the book.
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Yeah.
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Uh, and then tell us, you know, why this book and why now, and when did your board of directors let you have- Yeah time to do that?
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I know.
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Yeah.
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Well, thank you.
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Thank you.
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I really, yeah, I really appreciate it.
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So the book is called, The Future of Higher Education: Strategic Leadership for Academic Transformation.
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My publisher is Koehler Books, and it's, it's currently available, for pre-order on all, major retailers, Amazon, Barnes Noble, you name it.
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And it's coming out, it will be published on, December 1st.
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And, I'm just, I'm very grateful, I'm very humble.
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I just very appreciative, even, you know, again, like I say, Vernon, just for the opportunity to talk about it- Mm-hmm and share with your audience.
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But the book for me, it really grew out of a sense that higher education has kind of reached an inflection point.
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As you know, you know, colleges and universities, like many other things, are always gonna experience change.
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And so disrupt- disruption is nothing new but I think what, what feels especially significant is just the convergence of so many pressures at the same time.
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There's demographic change, enrollment pressure, financial constraints, you know, changing expectations from students and families.
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You know, families are asking questions, and I think really important ones about affordability and return on investment.
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There's workforce disruption I didn't mention earlier, I'm a clinical psychologist by background.
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I started my career at, at Lehigh University as a staff psychologist- Wow in the counseling center.
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And I talk both in the book, you talk in the book about, growing mental health concerns.
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Mm-hmm.
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And there's also, you know, as even aside from that, and I know you're familiar with this, there's a growing range of educational alternatives.
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Not to mention something that, that I talk about, every day at work, which is AI.
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Um-
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Mm-hmm
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and it's raising some, I think, incredibly interesting and fundamental questions about teaching, learning, work, and the skills that, um, you know, the skills that students need to graduate.
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The other thing I just mentioned too is, and this is more maybe just a personal aside, I find that there's, a lot of negativity in the space.
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And I just, I just lean optimistic.
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In fact I'm deeply optimistic and kind of bullish about higher education, and what the future holds, and what education in general can do for individuals and families, community and society.
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And so I wanted to, both in the book and my substack, I tend to lean positive, and write from an optimistic lens.
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I think clear-eyed and realistic about the challenges, but, I think the heart of the book is, is again, the things that we are capable of doing, for people and for society.
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I think that's really the heart of the book.
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Fantastic.
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Now, who's your audience?
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Who were you writing this for?
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Was this all of higher ed?
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Is it a specific sector in higher ed?
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Uh, when you talk about strategy, sometimes that's, you know, tends to be at the, the higher levels of the organization.
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But who is the book for?
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Who will benefit from it?
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Yeah.
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Great.
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That's a great question.
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I mean, I think I wrote it primarily for, for I think the people who've got some level of responsibility, you know, for shaping higher education and the future of their institutions.
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So certainly that includes presidents, provosts, deans, department chairs, and other academic leaders.
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I also hope it reaches people who work in enrollment, in finance, technology, HR, you know, of course faculty, and really, really any area that, increasingly I would say influences, institutional strategy, You know, there's just a lot of interconnectedness.
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And I also, I, you know, be candid, I wrote it also for emerging leaders.
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I hope they read, they read the book.
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I've long considered myself an emerging leader, although now I probably reached a certain age where I'm not, I'm maybe not emerging so much anymore.
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But, but I think, faculty members, directors, department chairs, really just professionals who are developing their leadership identities.
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And, hope it helps just inform their strategy and what comes next, for them in their careers, but also for their institutions.
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Y- yeah, that rising talent.
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You know, I was just reflecting in my mind as you were speaking that, I've been faculty, I've been a dean, a chief academic officer, vice president of academic affairs, provost and many of these roles, and I think the best training ground that I had was honestly when I was a department chair.
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Hmm.
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And it was, you know, it was that time that I really spent time to do exactly what you're saying, is to start taking a broader look at what was going around, starting looking at the trends, and understanding how that impacted my department and my courses and my faculty, at that time.
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And I think that's a great training ground- Yeah For, you know, folks to get there.
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As, as folks read this, um, what do you hope they might do about it or do differently after reading your book?
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Well, yeah, that's a great question.
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You know, it's funny, I, I wo- I wrote an essay actually this morning for next week's Substack about, um, you know, there's a tendency that we wanna, we wanna say yes to everything.
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Mm-hmm.
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You know, we can't, we can't say yes to everything.
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We've gotta, you know, we've gotta prioritize, for many reasons.
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To think about self-care, as an example, I think is something that I really want people to think about.
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Mm-hmm.
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Sometimes the-- I think the biggest act of academic strategy, is what you say no to, Mm-hmm and what you delegate, what you ask for help, for, thinking about the things you, you can give up.
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Maybe that's a unique perspective that's not always, that's not always shared.
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One of the things that I write about is how trust, I think, is a scarce resource, um, or can be a s- a scarce resource.
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But it's so, it's so important.
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I write about, basically what I say is, you know, a strategy that forecloses nothing, chooses nothing.
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And so again, a-around, you know, prioritization and, really ensuring that you're kinda focusing on the right things.
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I'm big on professional development.
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I've done a lot of professional development, in my career.
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Most recently I earned an executive certificate in higher education leadership, from Harvard, University.
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I was just at Cornell, this past summer for a higher education leadership program.
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And so I'm just a big believer in professional development, regardless of your age or where you are in your career and so encourage people to do it.
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But it also only really matters if you bring it back.
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So, when folks are afforded the opportunity to engage in professional development, hopefully they're bringing it back to their teams and their colleagues, and sharing kind of what they've learned and taken away.
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I write a little bit about the importance of political savvy.
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I'll admit that's not something that, is inherently kind of natural to me.
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But I think as you rise in leadership, there's some politics that come into play.
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And there's al- you know, and relatedly, I mean, or maybe not relatedly, but just understanding the landscape of what's going on in higher education, nationally, at a federal level.
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One of the things I do on a personal level, I start my day, I read-- I look at, um, I don't have time to read everything, but I always look at, Inside Higher Ed.
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I look at The Chronicle of Higher Education and a couple of other publications just to, just to stay informed.
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Hopefully that's, hopefully that's some just suggestions and, and, and takeaways.
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And the book does have, have lots of thoughts on, on strategy and, things for, uh, academic leaders to, to think about
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You used the idea of strategy of willingness before certainty, if I remember.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Um, what does that mean for leaders trying to move forward when they don't have perfect information?
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In organizational behavior terms, we talk about bounded rationality, right?
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Yeah.
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You don't have complete, uh, uh-
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Yeah
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information and so you have to make decisions based on the- Yeah information you have.
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That's right t- talk, talk about that, the strategy of a willingness before certainty.
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Yeah.
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I'm so glad you asked about that.
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And it's a, it's a reality of leadership that I've come to appreciate, more over time.
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And I think in essence, you know, certainty usually ar- arrives later than the decision.
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So of course, you know, most leaders would love to make big decisions or consequential decisions with complete information.
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But in practice we have a mixture of data, our experience, judgment, you know, perspectives from other people, and some degree of uncertainty.
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And so I do think having a tolerance of uncertainty is probably an underappreciated characteristic.
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The other thing too that comes to mind, you know, higher education has such a strong culture of deliberation.
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I do value that.
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Um, you know, thoughtful consultation and evidence makes us better.
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Ah.
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Yes, the navel,
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the navel gazing.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Um- We, we are the best at that.
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We are, we are peak at that skill.
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Yeah.
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So I think the challenge is, like, at what point do you have enough to move on?
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'Cause there's always another question to ask, another report you could request.
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You know, we could always have another conversation or another piece of information.
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But meanwhile, and again, part of the impetus of writing the book, the environment continues to change.
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So to kind of circle back to your question, willingness before certainty, you know, about developing the judgment to move thoughtfully, when the evidence is sufficient, but still remaining to, you know, attentive to, what you learn along the way.
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You know, sometimes, I mean, I've seen organizations that I've consulted with, that become so focused on avoiding the risk of a decision that they underestimate the risk of delay.
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And so it's like some- you know, if you make a decision- Um, you know, it's like if you say yes to something, it's like you're saying yes to something but you're also maybe saying no to something.
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And similarly, if you don't make a decision, you're saying yes to something else.
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And encouraging humility to keep learning, flexibility to adjust as new information emerges.
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But we, you know, we can't afford to always wait until we've got all, you know, all the information.
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And that momentum makes a big difference.
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I'd like to use a metaphor of,
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Please
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or analogy of, uh, a rudder on a ship.
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If the ship isn't moving, the rudder is useless.
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That's
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right.
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But if the ship is moving- Yeah if you're making a decision, moving it forward in a general direction, you can use your rudder to steer and change things.
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So an agile approach, especially in, uh, we'll call it VUCA, right?
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Volatile- Yeah uncertain, you know, uh, uh, uh, lo- lots of complexity and- Yeah and, ambiguity.
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That's the environment certainly that higher education is in.
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And so I like your intentionality in that thought.
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You know, the intentionality and then again, you need that momentum so you can actually- Right move
00:16:50.086 --> 00:16:51.365
That's a great way of thinking about it.
00:16:51.365 --> 00:16:51.966
I love that.
00:16:52.135 --> 00:16:52.475
Yeah.
00:16:53.405 --> 00:16:54.466
I wanna go back to two thoughts.
00:16:54.466 --> 00:16:54.495
Sure.
00:16:54.505 --> 00:17:07.746
First one is, you know, as a psychologist- Yeah would you just talk about, a little bit about the, the lack of boundaries or the penetration of boundaries that has happened because of our digital access?
00:17:08.006 --> 00:17:09.385
We're, we're far more convenient.
00:17:09.415 --> 00:17:10.566
We have far more things.
00:17:10.586 --> 00:17:15.826
And how does that contribute to, saying no instead of saying yes?
00:17:17.208 --> 00:17:21.557
Yeah, I think it presents a lot of opportunity and a lot of challenge, I think, as you're mentioning.
00:17:21.567 --> 00:17:33.167
And I think there's value, in, you know, having, let's just say email or, Microsoft Teams on your phone and being able to, to provide an immediate response.
00:17:33.317 --> 00:17:38.067
But again, you know, when it comes to things like we talked about earlier, self-care Mm-hmm can present a challenge.
00:17:38.238 --> 00:17:40.728
I mean, I work, uh, from home, fully remotely.
00:17:40.817 --> 00:17:47.498
But- Mm-hmm it can present a challenge to t- to turn it off at, at, at 5:00, you know, 5:00 o'clock or, or, or whatever time.
00:17:47.807 --> 00:17:49.248
Um, there, there...
00:17:49.288 --> 00:17:59.018
I think there's also been a change, and again, I'm not saying for, for the better or worse, but, but in what our students, expect or, or in some case even, in some cases demand.
00:17:59.127 --> 00:18:12.508
You know, students, particularly in, in online environments, are, are expecting a more immediate, response to certain things, or they're, or they're asking for more, you know, on-demand, tutoring or support.
00:18:13.018 --> 00:18:18.988
Not necessarily even necessarily during, the work, typical workday hours, but at night, at, on the weekend.
00:18:19.097 --> 00:18:23.637
And so, so I think there's some opportunities there, but I think it also, it also presents some challenges.
00:18:23.907 --> 00:18:30.577
When I started early in my career-- I wish this had existed when I was back at Lehigh as a, as a psychologist in the counseling center.
00:18:30.678 --> 00:18:46.178
You know, at that point in time, it was really, it really wasn't a thing to be able to provide, mental health support virtually or online, or to use, to use a service like, like BetterHelp or, you know, any of those telehealth.
00:18:46.258 --> 00:18:47.097
And- U- Uwill.
00:18:47.147 --> 00:18:48.811
Yeah, there's some- Uwill is a great- Yeah.
00:18:48.811 --> 00:18:50.538
Also, Uwill is a great exam- I wish Uwill- Yeah.
00:18:50.887 --> 00:18:56.778
S- so you know, um, w- you know, back, back when I was at Lehigh, there was no Uwill.
00:18:56.798 --> 00:18:59.367
And so, we used to rotate being on call.
00:18:59.377 --> 00:19:05.678
This is maybe, you know, going down a different path, but, but I, we'd get calls at 2:00 in the morning, 4:00 in the morning.
00:19:05.688 --> 00:19:06.127
Mm-hmm.
00:19:06.198 --> 00:19:15.397
Um, and, so I'd come to work the next day, you know, kind of exhausted, but I'd have a full calendar of students I was gonna meet with, both for individual therapy, for group counseling.
00:19:15.407 --> 00:19:16.998
And then I'd have emergency walk-ins.
00:19:16.998 --> 00:19:19.548
And then, then at night, the, the, the pattern would repeat.
00:19:19.688 --> 00:19:29.238
And so, so Uwill, I think is, you know, the companies like that are wonderful because they can help alleviate, some of the demand that, that institutions are seeing.
00:19:29.238 --> 00:19:39.678
There's just no way that college counseling centers can keep up with, just the rise in, in, in mental health challenge and they have to be able to, partner, you know, partner with that.
00:19:39.758 --> 00:19:47.218
So that's why I say, like, on one hand, some of this techno- it's wonderful that students, you know, in this instance can get more immediate, response.
00:19:47.317 --> 00:19:51.678
We use, like at my institution we use, not for mental health, but for tutoring we use tutor.com.
00:19:52.117 --> 00:19:52.508
Mm-hmm.
00:19:52.607 --> 00:19:52.817
It's great.
00:19:52.837 --> 00:19:55.518
They provide tutoring o- I think over 300 subjects.
00:19:55.577 --> 00:19:57.698
They're available 24/7.
00:19:57.698 --> 00:20:05.317
If it's 2:00 in the morning and a student has a question about whatever subject, chemistry, whatever it might be, they can help get their question resolved.
00:20:05.877 --> 00:20:15.837
And that's just not something that an institution like mine or many others has the ability to, you know, to provide and to afford, to staff, tutors, on evenings and weekends and things like that.
00:20:15.847 --> 00:20:18.637
So I do think there are pros.
00:20:18.688 --> 00:20:20.347
I think there are cons as well.
00:20:20.377 --> 00:20:27.067
Um, you know, I've got some separate thoughts about AI, which maybe, you know, we'll talk about as well, but, yeah.
00:20:27.087 --> 00:20:27.337
Let's,
00:20:27.407 --> 00:20:28.587
let's, let's go there.
00:20:28.657 --> 00:20:28.867
Yeah.
00:20:28.867 --> 00:20:28.978
Let's go
00:20:28.978 --> 00:20:29.377
to AI.
00:20:29.377 --> 00:20:29.438
Yeah.
00:20:29.438 --> 00:20:29.877
Because,
00:20:29.917 --> 00:20:30.008
you
00:20:30.018 --> 00:20:36.877
know, AI may be the most, dynamic part of our- Yeah changing environment, especially in terms of teaching and learning.
00:20:37.198 --> 00:20:46.958
I mean, I hear exam- for example, I hear, the idea that, okay, so the student is gonna use AI to do all their assignments- Yeah to turn in.
00:20:46.968 --> 00:20:59.238
The faculty's going to use AI to do all the grading, and so basically you have, AI agents taking care and doing the teaching and learning- Right and nothing is retained in the long-term memory or the- Yeah skill set of the students.
00:20:59.248 --> 00:20:59.268
Yeah.
00:20:59.428 --> 00:21:01.097
How would you address those issues?
00:21:01.268 --> 00:21:01.688
Yeah.
00:21:01.688 --> 00:21:06.667
I mean, yeah, so, so I mean, maybe just to, to kind of reiterate or even expand upon.
00:21:06.667 --> 00:21:11.458
So you could ha- hypothetically, you could have AI creating your assignment.
00:21:13.557 --> 00:21:19.448
You could have, students using AI to respond to the AI-created assignment.
00:21:20.278 --> 00:21:24.557
You know, faculty could be using AI to respond to the students who used AI.
00:21:24.867 --> 00:21:27.117
And so it's like, so it's like what are we, what are we talking about?
00:21:27.117 --> 00:21:29.087
I think that is a, that's a possibility.
00:21:29.268 --> 00:21:32.347
And I have so many thoughts on this, and like I say, I lean optimistic.
00:21:32.387 --> 00:21:39.587
So hopefully your, your, your listeners, they don't find me le- you know, um,'cause I do, I do acknowledge there are, there are a lot of challenges.
00:21:39.587 --> 00:21:45.028
I think academic, academic integrity is a real, is a real, uh, issue and concern.
00:21:45.548 --> 00:21:56.218
You raise a great question, like, what are, what are we actually-- what are students actually potentially learning if they're just using AI to, you know, potentially generate their, to generate their assignment?
00:21:56.577 --> 00:21:58.097
I guess I kind of think a few things.
00:21:58.097 --> 00:22:01.938
I mean, one, I've always kind of had this belief, like, you, you get out of something what you put into it.
00:22:02.038 --> 00:22:09.198
And, you know, I teach, and I tell my students, uh, you know, I'm not gonna try to be the AI police.
00:22:09.248 --> 00:22:14.057
And AI-- and candidly, I think AI detectors are pretty flawed right now, so, so, um- Oh, they do
00:22:14.077 --> 00:22:15.498
so many false positives.
00:22:15.498 --> 00:22:16.048
You should not-
00:22:16.057 --> 00:22:16.468
Yeah trust--
00:22:16.468 --> 00:22:21.978
I'm just telling everyone, you should not- Yeah trust an AI detector because it gives too many false positives.
00:22:22.188 --> 00:22:22.887
I totally agree.
00:22:22.887 --> 00:22:32.688
And so when I do suspect, maybe that students are not using AI in an appropriate, ethical, or responsible way, I always lean toward coaching or a conversation.
00:22:33.107 --> 00:22:37.798
But I do think, you know, and interestingly, I, I-- and AI is getting so much better, too.
00:22:37.798 --> 00:22:51.337
I mean, that's the other thing is, like, it's-- When I think about, let's just say ChatGPT, when I think about ChatGPT in twenty twenty-three or twenty twenty-four compared to in twenty twenty-six, twenty twenty-seven, it's remarkably better.
00:22:51.428 --> 00:22:51.807
It is.
00:22:51.907 --> 00:22:52.778
And yeah.
00:22:52.998 --> 00:23:00.907
So, um, you know, one of the conversations we're having right now, and I think my institution is not alone is about faculty use of
00:23:01.988 --> 00:23:02.008
AI.
00:23:02.018 --> 00:23:02.468
Mm-hmm.
00:23:02.508 --> 00:23:04.288
What's appropriate, what's not.
00:23:04.387 --> 00:23:08.198
Can faculty, should faculty be using AI for grading?
00:23:09.468 --> 00:23:11.778
Actually, you know, I'll even-- I'll go a step further.
00:23:11.778 --> 00:23:30.145
One of the ideas that we're, we're pondering at ACE is can we, can we encourage students themselves to use AI in a thoughtful, responsible way when it comes to, in a sense being a, like a, helping them with their dissertation.
00:23:30.155 --> 00:23:38.125
So just as an example, you know- Mm-hmm sometimes students, they're working on their dissertation, they're getting ready to submit to IRB, institutional review board.
00:23:38.506 --> 00:23:38.976
Mm-hmm.
00:23:39.046 --> 00:23:42.776
Um, and, and it comes back from IRB because there are issues with it.
00:23:42.895 --> 00:23:46.736
And sometimes they're, you know, they're related to the, the nature of the study.
00:23:47.365 --> 00:23:51.605
Or sometimes it, sometimes it's just even things like the formatting is off or whatever it might be.
00:23:51.746 --> 00:24:16.102
Is there a way where students, rather than having to wait five days, 10 days, whatever it might be from their, for their, dissertation chair and committee members to be providing feedback, you know, is there a way that AI can, can kind of provide a more immediate check just to see if they're, they're kind of meeting the, the criteria of what's, of what's required, if the formatting is correct, if the APA formatting is correct.
00:24:16.662 --> 00:24:30.531
And in a sense then, then that could potentially alleviate some faculty member time and some, uh, you know, dissertation committee time for more meaningful feedback and more meaningful interaction and building a, you know, building a relationship, uh, with students.
00:24:30.571 --> 00:24:33.862
And so, that's kind of a long that's kind of a long-winded answer.
00:24:34.102 --> 00:24:39.902
Well- All that, all that, I think there's definitely dangers and there's definitely, some really big questions out there.
00:24:40.521 --> 00:24:43.442
But I think I just get excited about, I think about opportunity.
00:24:43.842 --> 00:24:49.592
About ways of, of doing things with, you know, and some- sometimes better, more efficient, more innovative.
00:24:49.811 --> 00:24:50.082
I don't know.
00:24:50.082 --> 00:24:51.221
What do you, what do you think, Vernon?
00:24:51.311 --> 00:24:51.672
What's-
00:24:52.182 --> 00:24:55.531
So, um, you know, two thoughts come to my mind.
00:24:55.531 --> 00:24:55.551
Yeah.
00:24:55.561 --> 00:25:01.692
The first one is, um, this is actually a, a, a pace or a rate issue in some ways.
00:25:01.701 --> 00:25:03.811
It ha- things are happening so quickly-
00:25:03.942 --> 00:25:04.241
Yeah
00:25:04.602 --> 00:25:07.332
that, um, the ability to...
00:25:07.672 --> 00:25:12.842
And the one key thing that we, that hinges all this is authentic assessment.
00:25:13.872 --> 00:25:17.051
Do you know what you are s- purport to know?
00:25:17.061 --> 00:25:18.031
Mm-hmm.
00:25:18.031 --> 00:25:25.481
And I think that is the key where higher education needs to lock in and look at, is the assessment portion of this.
00:25:25.692 --> 00:25:33.632
So I mean, you know, part of the thing is you cannot use your old assessment that you've used for a long time- Right and just keep it out there.
00:25:33.642 --> 00:25:37.162
You have to rapidly redo your- Yeah assessments.
00:25:37.402 --> 00:25:49.501
AI can help with that, but it's, is, understanding that your stuff, from an academic integrity point of view, from a, you know, a chief academic officer provost point of view- Yeah is your stuff has probably been compromised.
00:25:49.842 --> 00:25:54.592
And if you go out on Course Hero or Chegg or whatever- Yeah, right that's there, it may be there.
00:25:54.592 --> 00:25:57.632
So that's the first issue of that for the integrity.
00:25:57.811 --> 00:26:11.276
But it's, addressing the, assessments faster And then I think it's also that look at assessment in what do we need to have students do that is really important?
00:26:11.286 --> 00:26:12.016
How can...
00:26:12.246 --> 00:26:16.016
We need to look at our assessment methods and see where that is.
00:26:16.016 --> 00:26:16.256
Yeah.
00:26:16.256 --> 00:26:20.086
And we have to get more creative- Yeah frankly with the assessments.
00:26:20.105 --> 00:26:25.615
So you can't rest on your laurels- Yeah for, a class anymore.
00:26:25.806 --> 00:26:30.786
There's too much the pace at which things need to be renewed.
00:26:30.806 --> 00:26:37.125
It used to be that you could build a, for example, an online class, and we've both worked in online- Uh-huh settings and, or online formats.
00:26:37.486 --> 00:26:37.506
Yeah.
00:26:37.516 --> 00:26:41.316
You could wait and, maybe do a renewal of that class in three years.
00:26:41.885 --> 00:26:42.135
Right.
00:26:42.205 --> 00:26:50.766
That is not the case- Yeah especially in areas- Yeah that are close to, I'd call close to the market, or that are highly impacted by business and industry.
00:26:50.986 --> 00:26:52.976
It, you can't wait that long.
00:26:52.986 --> 00:26:53.006
Yeah.
00:26:53.296 --> 00:26:56.276
And so, those are my thoughts on what the challenge is.
00:26:56.276 --> 00:27:01.865
It comes down to- Mm the pace or the timing, how quickly the rapid cycles are.
00:27:01.915 --> 00:27:08.435
And the other part for me- Yeah at this point, I think a lot about AI, is, Yeah what, what are you doing to...
00:27:08.596 --> 00:27:09.736
How do you know what you know?
00:27:10.556 --> 00:27:11.175
And-
00:27:11.395 --> 00:27:12.746
Can I ask you, can I ask you a question?
00:27:12.756 --> 00:27:13.496
And, um- Sure.
00:27:13.546 --> 00:27:23.425
What advice would you give institutions, um, so, you know, well it used to be I would say, you know, primarily online, but I think almost every institution now is offering, online.
00:27:23.425 --> 00:27:23.746
Yes.
00:27:23.746 --> 00:27:25.155
Every institution's online.
00:27:25.155 --> 00:27:25.246
As they should.
00:27:25.246 --> 00:27:25.806
Probably as they should.
00:27:26.165 --> 00:27:30.865
Um- Yeah i think one of the questions that is, you know, discussion boards, right?
00:27:30.925 --> 00:27:40.766
The traditional, especially in an asynchronous format where you have your discussion topic and then it's like y- you're expected to do, you know, one post and then two replies.
00:27:40.875 --> 00:27:42.586
I think that's an area where-
00:27:43.026 --> 00:27:43.476
Oh, yeah
00:27:43.536 --> 00:28:07.880
um, so, so what advice would you give, would you give institutions these days who are saying- You know, students are getting burnt out on just reading AI, you know, posts from their peers, and faculty are getting burnt out on, reading AI posts from their students and, and yet, we can't trust AI det- AI detectors, and we don't wanna falsely accuse.
00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:15.369
So, but we're just sick of, we're just sick of seeing So do you have any advice for institutions that might wanna redesign their, their discussion?
00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:21.079
You know, as I think about it, one of the things is that is an old tool, and it is a great tool.
00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:21.569
Yeah.
00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:24.009
And it fit the technology at the time.
00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:24.599
Mm-hmm.
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:36.619
In learning theory, as we look at this, the more modalities that you stimulate in the brain, and you know this from psychology- Yeah the more likely you are to, encode it into your short-term, into your long-term memory as well.
00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:48.759
I believe, and this is where the creativity comes in, that there are You know, that's the go-to, that's the standard that of doing these discussion boards, but there are so many other ways.
00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:48.789
Yeah.
00:28:49.230 --> 00:28:54.119
And I think part of that for an institution is look at what is your standard.
00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:59.490
You could do a study and say,"How many, how many of our assignments are built on just discussion board?
00:28:59.769 --> 00:29:02.559
And now what could we do that's different," right?
00:29:02.569 --> 00:29:02.589
Yeah.
00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:05.834
So for example- Do we have a case study approach?
00:29:05.834 --> 00:29:07.273
Do we have a project approach?
00:29:07.403 --> 00:29:09.624
Do we have a portfolio approach in this class?
00:29:09.874 --> 00:29:16.134
Do we have a common story that goes on that's a full thread throughout the class?
00:29:16.344 --> 00:29:26.374
That's one of the things we work at with Engage by Design is being able to understand how you can actually build in a overarching story for a class- Mm-hmm And to do that.
00:29:26.374 --> 00:29:30.203
But, you know- Yeah there's so many, and I'd say what do students engage with?
00:29:30.804 --> 00:29:31.794
They're on social media.
00:29:31.794 --> 00:29:32.304
They're doing things.
00:29:32.374 --> 00:29:39.483
Why aren't we helping them or having them produce those similar types of things, that skill set that would be useful for them?
00:29:39.733 --> 00:29:47.304
I think the variety and the creativity, and I always start with assessment because that's the heart of teaching and learning is do you know what you know?
00:29:47.594 --> 00:29:51.594
And, those were-- we'd be-- first step would be take an assessment.
00:29:51.884 --> 00:29:56.334
Do an assessment of what are the types of things that are out that you're doing.
00:29:56.763 --> 00:30:01.453
Uh, what is your go-to, uh, you know, same thing again, and is it boring students?
00:30:01.453 --> 00:30:02.713
Is it burning them out?
00:30:03.023 --> 00:30:04.503
Is it actually meaningful?
00:30:04.874 --> 00:30:07.963
Is it actually value added in the learning experience?
00:30:08.233 --> 00:30:12.584
And then use your creativity and start thinking about some ways of doing that.
00:30:12.624 --> 00:30:20.844
At Engage by Design, that's one of the things that we, we help people walk through is that process so that they actually do what they need to do.
00:30:21.243 --> 00:30:28.544
And it goes back to your notion, that you've written about, about leaders being both stewards and architects.
00:30:28.773 --> 00:30:28.784
Mm-hmm.
00:30:28.784 --> 00:30:28.794
Uh-huh.
00:30:28.794 --> 00:30:31.403
You know, responsible for preserving what matters.
00:30:31.614 --> 00:30:31.794
Yeah.
00:30:31.794 --> 00:30:33.423
Learning matters, memory matters.
00:30:33.523 --> 00:30:33.624
Yep.
00:30:33.804 --> 00:30:34.894
Mastery matters.
00:30:35.213 --> 00:30:37.884
A- and while redesigning what no longer works.
00:30:38.483 --> 00:30:38.614
That's right.
00:30:38.614 --> 00:30:47.124
I think the discussion board might be one of those things that- Mm you redesigned that, no longer works with the efficacy or the effectiveness- Yeah that you need.
00:30:47.574 --> 00:30:48.163
I love that.
00:30:48.213 --> 00:30:48.713
Yeah.
00:30:48.923 --> 00:30:50.794
Um, oh, that's great.
00:30:50.894 --> 00:30:52.023
No, thank you for sharing that.
00:30:52.054 --> 00:30:56.403
I think there's a, there's a balance, right, between, you know, stewardship and architecture.
00:30:56.453 --> 00:31:01.183
Respect what we've inherited but, accept responsibility for what we're, we're leaving behind.
00:31:01.213 --> 00:31:04.193
And we've gotta, um, you know, we've gotta innovate.
00:31:04.263 --> 00:31:24.384
I think about the stu- I mean, even this is a great discussion, but even like with, with doctoral or dissertation as an example, it used to be, students would write a dissertation, and the dissertation defense, which is kind of where they do their, their presentation on their topic, that was kind of like a, a check the box, like a fade to complete kind of.
00:31:24.403 --> 00:31:26.324
It wasn't really a lot into it.
00:31:26.374 --> 00:31:40.544
But I think in this age of, of A- AI, that I think that the presentation, whether it's the, the dissertation defense or maybe the, the presentation that the student might need to go do at a conference on their-
00:31:40.614 --> 00:31:40.874
Mm-hmm
00:31:41.173 --> 00:31:52.144
that, maybe the more 2027 innovative type of way of really, of really for a student to demonstrate that they've mastered their topic.
00:31:52.153 --> 00:32:08.781
Can they get in front of a room of professionals for 45 minutes and, and talk without, you know- without Claude in front of them and just talk, about, what they studied and what and do so in a reasonably proficient way.
00:32:09.122 --> 00:32:16.132
And that might be more of a, of the test of expertise now as compared to what it used to be, which is like, you know, you hand in this dissertation.
00:32:16.192 --> 00:32:17.422
So yeah, interesting.
00:32:17.731 --> 00:32:18.241
Really interesting.
00:32:18.451 --> 00:32:18.711
Yeah.
00:32:18.711 --> 00:32:27.031
I think your creativity, and that's what, one thing that I do believe AI can do is you can actually use it for quizzing and say,"Hey, what am I not thinking about here?
00:32:27.291 --> 00:32:34.882
What are some other approaches?" And here's another part is say,"Let's look at other parts, sectors in the economy." Yeah.
00:32:35.301 --> 00:32:36.961
Let's look at other areas.
00:32:37.112 --> 00:32:39.082
What are they doing to do this?
00:32:39.082 --> 00:32:39.251
Yeah.
00:32:39.251 --> 00:32:50.541
You know, and I'm, I'm a big hands-on type of person, so if it's relevant and it's grounded in reality to the real world, that seems that it'd be the best value.
00:32:50.541 --> 00:32:53.922
And AI can help with that, but again, it has to be in- intentional.
00:32:53.932 --> 00:32:53.961
Nice.
00:32:53.961 --> 00:32:53.981
Yeah.
00:32:54.442 --> 00:32:56.682
You've written that bespoke doesn't scale.
00:32:56.741 --> 00:32:56.872
Yeah.
00:32:56.872 --> 00:33:14.162
And that actually goes back to Baumol's, theories about, that craft production, and that's what my dissertation by the way is about, is about- Yeah the difference between craft, collegial production, and then I'd call it virtual assembly line discussion- Yeah where as we unbundle, uh, the faculty's role in higher education.
00:33:14.551 --> 00:33:26.912
So Eric, how can institutions simplify and build sustainable models without losing the human relationship and individualized experiences that make education valuable?
00:33:27.071 --> 00:33:29.656
You know, I, I think, it was Kelly wrote about, mass customization.
00:33:29.656 --> 00:33:30.471
Mm-hmm.
00:33:30.692 --> 00:33:31.682
How, how can we do that?
00:33:31.692 --> 00:33:33.442
What, what's a way of thinking about that?
00:33:34.122 --> 00:33:35.711
Yeah, I think that's an awesome question.
00:33:35.821 --> 00:33:46.369
I think for me, um- The, the distinction I think that maybe people should keep in their minds is, is between personalization and complexity.
00:33:46.490 --> 00:33:52.759
What I've come to find is that, institutions, will often create complexity for very understandable reasons, right?
00:33:52.809 --> 00:33:55.569
A unique circumstance arises, so we create an exception.
00:33:56.390 --> 00:34:00.430
Um, another issue emerges that we didn't expect, so we add a process.
00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:04.519
Something else goes wrong, and then we develop a policy to prevent it from happening again.
00:34:05.259 --> 00:34:10.260
Each individual decision in and of itself, it might be perfectly reasonable.
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:12.820
But over time, those decisions accumulate.
00:34:12.869 --> 00:34:18.639
So what ends up happening, and I've seen this too many times, eventually students are navigating this maze of process.
00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:23.300
Employees are spending enormous amounts of time managing, that complexity.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.690
And I think that's what I really mean when I say, bespoke doesn't scale.
00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:31.309
I think with the opportunity, and again, I think, leaning positive, what's the opportunity?
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:39.719
When we can to simplify the underlying infrastructure in ways that create more room for, for genuine personalization.
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:49.360
So, if technology-- I mentioned this earlier, if technology can eliminate, an unnecessary administrative task, awesome, because that creates time that someone could spend with a student.
00:34:49.420 --> 00:34:58.550
If a student can navigate a routine process more easily, then the conversation with the advisor can focus on the student's goals rather than, like, the paperwork or the forms they're filling out.
00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:08.909
In terms of AI, I think as AI becomes more capable, which it will, we just keep asking where the technology can create greater capacity for meaningful, human interaction.
00:35:08.969 --> 00:35:10.380
That's where I see the potential.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:17.019
My wish for AI or the technology, create more room for the human side of education.
00:35:17.139 --> 00:35:26.369
More capacity for conversations, mentoring, for teaching, feedback, the relationships that really give education, so much of its meaning.
00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:34.820
I think back, the psychologist in me, I think back early in my career, I kind of had that, you know, I think which we all have that imposter syndrome.
00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:35.389
We're just starting out.
00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:37.179
We don't really feel like we know what we're doing.
00:35:37.539 --> 00:35:41.873
We're starting to meet with patients and my mentor said something at the time.
00:35:41.873 --> 00:35:59.083
He said,"Just, if you can just do these two things," he said,"I think you're gonna be, you'll be successful." He said,"Be compassionate and be engaged." And I really tried to, to, to do that, certainly in my clinical work, but I've, I think I've really tried to maintain that just in my educational philosophy too.
00:35:59.773 --> 00:36:04.884
And I think, you know, um, that does scale, compassion and engagement.
00:36:05.454 --> 00:36:12.253
And I think the more we can just do that and personalize our relationship with students, I think that's where we're gonna see big time gains.
00:36:13.753 --> 00:36:16.123
I, I think those are words of wisdom, honestly.
00:36:16.123 --> 00:36:18.344
I 100% am in agreement with that.
00:36:18.664 --> 00:36:28.434
No matter what your role is in higher education, knowing that you're compassionate, that you care, and that you're engaged, you're listening, you're there, it makes all the difference.
00:36:28.434 --> 00:36:34.054
That's part of the transformational process that we can do in higher education for good.
00:36:34.563 --> 00:36:36.653
So Eric- Yeah you got a book coming out.
00:36:36.653 --> 00:36:38.463
You got a- Yeah a, a busy career.
00:36:38.463 --> 00:36:43.583
You're, of course, making sure your board of directors at home- That's right is, is happy and doing things like that.
00:36:43.873 --> 00:36:44.353
That's right.
00:36:44.353 --> 00:37:00.724
Here on the Engaged by Design podcast, we like to ask our guests a question from their perspective, and we've, really have never had a same answer, so we really love this question, and that is, how do you, Eric Klein, engage more learners more effectively?
00:37:02.021 --> 00:37:03.081
Yeah, I love that question.
00:37:03.081 --> 00:37:05.431
Isn't it fascinating that you get a different answer every time?
00:37:05.581 --> 00:37:05.902
Um- It
00:37:05.902 --> 00:37:06.331
is.
00:37:07.382 --> 00:37:07.902
Yeah.
00:37:07.902 --> 00:37:21.231
I, I think it's something, Vernon, I'm gonna kinda steal your, your answer and how you talked about, what your company does and how you're, how you're thinking about, um, reimagining certain things, including, like what discussions, might look like.
00:37:21.342 --> 00:37:29.331
But it's understanding learners as they are today, um, and sign, designing, educational experiences around that reality.
00:37:29.382 --> 00:37:40.762
So, you know, I think today's students, more than ever, they're coming to higher education with very different experiences, different responsibilities, different aspirations, different constraints.
00:37:40.862 --> 00:37:44.552
Of course, some are-- they're 18 years old, and they're coming directly from high school.
00:37:44.751 --> 00:37:51.641
I work with more, working adults, parents, career changers, a lot of first-generation students.
00:37:51.731 --> 00:37:55.431
I work with a lot of people who are returning to education after many years away.
00:37:55.552 --> 00:38:00.271
And I think that diversity really should influence how we think about engagement.
00:38:00.331 --> 00:38:02.222
And I kinda referenced this in my last answer, too.
00:38:02.222 --> 00:38:11.652
You know, we need experiences that are more easy to navigate, pathways that are clear, uh, learning that feels meaningful and not a, not a waste of time.
00:38:11.702 --> 00:38:15.331
And technology, of course, that supports, that experience in thoughtful ways.
00:38:15.782 --> 00:38:18.541
And then finally, that human connection piece.
00:38:18.992 --> 00:38:22.001
I just think that's so, so incredibly important.
00:38:22.112 --> 00:38:30.871
So, like you've talked about, I think we've got opportunities to, to create, more rich, engaging, experiences for students.
00:38:30.981 --> 00:38:35.322
I think there's all the potential in the world to engage more learners more effectively.
00:38:35.882 --> 00:38:38.282
I love just-- I keep coming back to this thought in my mind.
00:38:38.311 --> 00:38:44.132
The combination of thoughtful design and really just genuine, authentic human connection.
00:38:44.521 --> 00:38:47.871
We, as an administrator, I talk with my team.
00:38:48.202 --> 00:38:50.702
Let's make our institution easier to navigate.
00:38:51.121 --> 00:38:53.342
Let's make the learning more relevant.
00:38:54.092 --> 00:38:56.101
Let's make the pathways more clear.
00:38:56.291 --> 00:38:59.152
And all along the way,'cause it won't be perfect.
00:38:59.222 --> 00:39:00.922
Progress over perfection, right?
00:39:01.021 --> 00:39:12.612
Let's make sure that when students are encountering our faculty or staff, that, we're supporting them, that we're appropriately challenging them, that we're engaging them in a really quality way.
00:39:12.782 --> 00:39:26.172
And I think that's gonna ultimately-- I think that if we do that well, then I think we create, an edu-educational experience that, that more students can engage with, you know, learn from, and ultimately succeed within, so.
00:39:27.353 --> 00:39:27.634
I don't know.
00:39:27.634 --> 00:39:28.514
Is that a unique answer?
00:39:28.514 --> 00:39:29.134
Did I, uh-
00:39:29.143 --> 00:39:30.634
Hey, it is a unique answer.
00:39:30.643 --> 00:39:30.673
Cool.
00:39:30.684 --> 00:39:34.583
It's again, I'm, I'm always fascinated with how it's different, but the-
00:39:34.594 --> 00:39:34.813
Yeah
00:39:34.994 --> 00:39:43.934
I think, you know, I wanna thank you, Eric, for, you know, your willingness to share those thoughts- Yeah and share your wisdom, insights, your experience, and more than that, your story with us.
00:39:44.304 --> 00:39:55.103
And so we're gonna look forward to, uh, seeing the book- Yeah and, uh, when it comes out, and we'll look for- forward to, uh, bigger and better things for you for the future.
00:39:55.114 --> 00:39:55.164
All right.
00:39:55.164 --> 00:39:57.844
Thank you again for being on the Engaged by Design podcast.
00:39:57.844 --> 00:39:59.864
Yeah, I really appreciate you having me.
00:39:59.864 --> 00:40:06.164
I really encourage listeners, um, if this is your first time listening, go check out other episodes of the podcast.
00:40:06.224 --> 00:40:07.224
It's really good.
00:40:07.344 --> 00:40:10.083
Um, I think you'll get a lot out of it, so thank you for having me.
00:40:11.143 --> 00:40:12.324
Uh, It's been a pleasure.
00:40:14.103 --> 00:40:18.023
Thank you for listening to the Engaged by Design podcast today.
00:40:18.454 --> 00:40:24.403
we hope you've enjoyed this episode, which was a great conversation between, Vernon Smith and Dr.
00:40:24.403 --> 00:40:26.643
Eric Klein, who was our guest today.
00:40:27.193 --> 00:40:38.574
Hope you have some good takeaways in regards to how we can use AI effectively in the design of our classes and in promoting innovation within our colleges and universities.
00:40:39.324 --> 00:40:47.204
Uh, please remember to like, subscribe, and share this episode with a friend so we can continue to engage by design