Anti-Zionism: A Jewish History (Interview with Benjamin Moser) | DeProgram with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas

WEBVTT
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morning. You are watching or listening to DeProgram
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with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas. It's Tuesday,
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September 22nd, 2026. This morning, we've got
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an interview with Ben Moser. He is the author
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of Anti-Zionism, a Jewish History, which is
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a great title because it's self-explanatory.
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We will be having him live in just a couple of
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minutes. Also later in the show, if we have time,
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we'll see how it goes. We'll talk about the Wall
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Street Journal report that says that Trump wants
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to send $5 billion to the Gulf states to repair
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the infrastructure from the Iran war. And this
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kind of wild story about Belarus, where Trump
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basically was looking to solve the fertilizer
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problem for American farmers by sourcing potash.
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The story, something we don't talk about very
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often in the news here. And sourcing potash from
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Belarus, inexplicably, a very close ally of Russia.
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So I don't know how that would have worked. And
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Belarus is like, yeah, we kind of don't know
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what you're talking about. So we're going to
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get into all that. Good morning, Jamarl. How are
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you doing? I'm doing okay. You doing all right?
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I am doing very, very well. I'm very excited
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about our guest this morning, Benjamin Moser.
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I will just read his bio from the book. I've
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been reading the book for the last week. He's
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the author of Why This World, a biography of
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Clarice Lispector, a finalist for the National
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Book Critics Circle Award, and a New York Times
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Notable Book of 2009. I will admit I'm jealous
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of that last one. For his work bringing Clarice
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Lispector to international prominence, he received
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Brazil's first state prize for cultural diplomacy.
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Sontag, her life and work, won the Pulitzer in
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2020. Great book. I enjoyed that. And the Upside
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Down World, Meetings with the Dutch Masters,
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came out in 2023. He completed Anti-Zionism
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and Jewish History at the Dorothy and Lewis B.
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Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers at the
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New York Public Library. I don't know if that's
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the same place Robert Caro worked on his magisterial
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Power Broker about the early development of New
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York City and the highways and stuff around there.
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But anyway, let's go ahead and bring in Ben.
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Good morning, Ben. Hi, great to be here. It's
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great to have you. So I've been reading your
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book with great interest. I was looking forward
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to it even before I read it, but it exceeded
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expectations. So I think the first
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thing we should just get to is obviously the
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timing of it couldn't be more potent, but obviously,
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I can imagine you're going to be dealing
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with some considerable controversy. But I guess
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the first thing is, if maybe you can just sort
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of lay the groundwork by explaining
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Theodor Herzl and the sort of the early days
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of Zionism in the late 1800s, and how basically,
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what were the roots of Zionism as we know it
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today, and that culminated with the creation
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of the State of Israel? Well, one thing that's
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really important to understand is that in the
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19th century, when Herzl starts out writing this
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book called The Jewish State, he's writing it
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in an explicitly colonial time where you can
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pretty much, if you're a white person from Europe,
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you look at the map and you think, where can
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I put my new colony? And you pick out someplace,
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somewhere, always not white parts of the world.
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Like you would never say the Jews are being oppressed
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in Russia, which they were. Therefore, we should
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take a place in Russia. You would always look
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to the non-white parts. And so he looks to a
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part of the world that's Holstein, but at the
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same time he's starting this project in the Jewish
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state, he writes, well, we could also go to Argentina.
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But the weird thing about this book, and there's
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a lot that's really weird about it, and I had
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never read it until a few years ago, I just knew
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him as sort of this famous figure from history,
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is that he doesn't... he devotes three paragraphs
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to this question. It's called Palestine or Argentina,
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and it's literally three paragraphs. He says,
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well, Argentina would be great because they have
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a lot of land and it's a very rich country agriculturally,
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so maybe that. On the other hand, there's Palestine
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where it's our historic home, and
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maybe we should do Palestine. We'll tell the
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sultan that we need this land for, I mean, it's
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almost like Trump wanting Greenland,
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it's just really weird. And he says, we will
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form from the wall of civilization against barbarism.
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So he's inserting it in this very explicitly
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colonial and racist and imperialist kind of context,
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which Zionists later go on to deny. I mean, they
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devote a huge amount of effort to saying that
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this is an indigenous liberation movement. The
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problem is that at the time that Zionist settlement
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starts, Palestine is between 95 and 97% non
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-Jewish. What are you going to do with the 97
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% of the population? And from the very beginning,
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they all agreed. It's not a land without a people
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for a people without a land. Not really. No,
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I mean, this is what I kind of grew up thinking.
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This was the story that Jewish kids used to get
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told. I hope less now, although I'm not so optimistic
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about it. But yeah, something that simplistic.
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And Zionism always was really simplistic. Like
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it gives you a very easy solution. You say,
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well, the Jews are being oppressed here. So why
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don't we just take off to Palestine, which is
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our homeland, and we're going to just live there
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and nobody's going to bother. I mean, it sounds
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great, except for a few obvious questions like,
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does anybody live there? And does anybody want
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us there? And does anybody, do other peoples
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just like, just pack their things and say, okay,
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you can have my house and my country and we're
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going to move somewhere else? I mean, but it
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doesn't occur to Herzl. And so the thing that's
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really fascinating about reading him is how absolutely
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crazy he is in a lot of ways. Like he has this
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fantasy about making his four-year-old son
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the doge of the Jews. And he has, and before
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that, he has this fantasy about converting all
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the Jews to Catholicism. And he's going to bring
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the Pope in and the Pope's going to say some
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touching words and all the Jews are just going
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to become Catholics. But he never says like,
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Who are these people that are going to do this?
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Like Jews aren't going to just like, not like
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an every single Jew in the whole of Central Europe
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is just going to say, great, never mind. So it's
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really weird to read it because you kind of want
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to make fun of him and you kind of want to be
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like, dude, you're a fucking nut. But on the
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other hand, you have to take him seriously because
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these ideas did catch on. And they've had consequences
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for millions and millions of people. I'm sorry,
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was this a, I mean, I sort of read it as an analogy
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to Marcus Garvey and the Back to Africa movement.
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Basically, we're an oppressed people. We get
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attacked and abused everywhere we are in the
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world. We got to have our own place or we'll
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never be safe. Is that basically right? That's
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basically it. I mean, Marcus Garvey is very different.
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But like, if you want to make a comparison similar
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to that, you can compare Liberia to that, which
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is basically like. Black Americans are never
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going to be accepted in this country. It's irredeemably
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racist. We need to get out of here and just go
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back to Africa. But what happens in Liberia,
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which is exactly what happens in Israel, is that
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this basically Europeanized or Americanized population
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sets themselves up in the same kind of master
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-slave dynamic that they were escaping from.
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And so, so with the anti-Zionist that
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I write about in my book, what we, I can now
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say we, because I've been part of
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this movement for a long time, but we are part
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of the movement that wants to say everybody should
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be equal. It doesn't matter where you live. It
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doesn't matter your religion or your race or
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your sex or your sexuality or whatever it is.
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People should be equal. And that's a very...
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that's a very compelling concept but it's
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a concept of course in the 20th century with
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the Holocaust and everything comes under an incredible
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amount of pressure and people just say
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what like this is it's a great idea sure like
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everybody should be equal but practical thing
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is this is we're getting killed we need
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to have our own place and that's very understandable
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to people it's very understandable to me as well
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it's just that When you read the history of this
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movement and the history of the Jews who have
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said this is going to end badly. And then you
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look at the fact that the most dangerous place
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in the world for Jews by a massive, massive margin
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since 1945 is Israel. Explain something to the
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audience and I guess maybe even to myself. How
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did they originally get onto the land and how
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did they originally start getting the land itself
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as they started to expand in the Palestine? Meaning...
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Well, so it's very... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so
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in the 19th century, what they do is they set
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up little colonies, little settlements, little
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towns, they buy some farmland or they
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buy some, a little, they set up a little
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village or something, which by the way, like
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people did all over the world. I mean, a lot
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of people, if you think about the settlement
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of this country. In the 19th century,
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like people like, I don't know, like a community
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of Swedes would buy a little area in Minnesota
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and they would all settle a bunch of Swedes there.
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The difference with Israel is that very, or with
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Zionism in Palestine, is that very quickly they
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start trying to ethnically cleanse and shut out
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the local population. So there's a whole dynamic
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where they come in. They don't come as immigrants.
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I think this is the big, big difference. They
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don't come in as immigrants. They come in as
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conquerors. And they explicitly say this. They
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boycott the native Arab population. They won't
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let them work on their farms, which creates real
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dislocation for a lot of people. And as more
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and more people come in, it creates more and
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more problems. And it's not until 1917 to 1919,
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really, when they get the Balfour Declaration.
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They know, Herzl knows they have to have an imperialist
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backer, just like they have today. They have
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to have the U.S. paying their bills or otherwise
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the whole thing falls apart in 30 minutes. So
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they get the British army basically to support
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them because they're still a tiny minority. I
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mean, even it's like, even the Balfour
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Declaration is 1917. They've been at it for more
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than a generation and they're still less than
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10% of the population. So with the, I mean,
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the Balfour Declaration sort of seems to presage
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in my reading of your book, sort of
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this unholy agreement between Nazi Germany and
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the Zionist movement, where basically you have
00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.919
anti-Semites in the case of the imperial English
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regime. And it's kind of like, oh, you Jews want
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to not be in Europe anymore? Oh, yeah, we like
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that. That's fantastic. We can work together.
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This is really, I mean, just going back to like,
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because Marcus Garvey is a separate topic, but
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going back to Liberia, this is really what they
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said too. I mean, this is what the early founders
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of Liberia really appealed to American racists.
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They said, like, you want to get rid of black
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people? Great. Get rid of us. We're going to
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go. The thing is about Zionism's bond with anti
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-Semitism. They understood, Herzl says from the
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very beginning, our closest allies will be the
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anti-Semites. And they appealed very explicitly.
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I mean, the thing that's so weird about Zionism
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is that they're always really, they say all this
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stuff. You don't have to dig deep into
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the quotes to find this stuff. They know that
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they have to appeal to anti-Semitism in order
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to make this healing. And so the British cabinet
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is pretty explicitly anti-Semitic. the time
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the Balfour Declaration is adopted, and the only
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Jewish member of the cabinet, Edwin Montagu,
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who I write about in the book, says this is anti
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-Semitic in intent, and it will have anti-Semitism
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as a result. And boy, was he right. To this day,
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you see how much Zionists, Israel, appeal to
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anti-Semitism, the anti-Semitic leaders, but
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also to the threat of anti-Semitism and the...
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the whipping up of fear among Jews. They were
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always very good at making Jews afraid. Ben,
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can you tell us a little bit about the, I mean,
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to me, it seems like, I mean, there's a lot to
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:55.960
unpack here, so I'm glad we have some time to
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do it, but there probably won't be enough time.
00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:02.789
But what, it seemed to me that the big...
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philosophical shift that creates that allows
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Zionism to take hold is the idea of Judaism not
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as a religion anymore in other words like I grew
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up Catholic Catholics live all over the world
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except for Vatican City there isn't really a
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Catholic state anymore but Catholics
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abound right and Judaism but for but for Zionists
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the religion the faith takes a back
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seat And it becomes more of an ethnicity, more
00:13:34.309 --> 00:13:38.529
of a more of a national status. And if you're
00:13:38.529 --> 00:13:41.409
an ethnicity like the Kurds, then
00:13:41.409 --> 00:13:43.870
you need a homeland. If you're a religion, you
00:13:43.870 --> 00:13:46.809
can live anywhere. And I mean, it's kind of a
00:13:46.809 --> 00:13:49.830
two part question. And you also point out something
00:13:49.830 --> 00:13:52.789
that I think is really forgotten now is that
00:13:52.789 --> 00:13:55.750
Jews were living peacefully throughout the Arab
00:13:55.750 --> 00:13:58.649
world, throughout the Muslim world, before the
00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:00.889
creation of the state of Israel. And you talk
00:14:00.889 --> 00:14:03.990
about if you can, I mean, I was blown away, pun
00:14:03.990 --> 00:14:06.950
intended, by your discussion about what happened
00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:10.129
to the Baghdadi Jews, that community of over
00:14:10.129 --> 00:14:13.620
100,000 people. The oldest in the world. Yeah.
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.000
Well, I mean, the thing about it is that the
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.299
Jews are both an ethnicity and a religious group.
00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:21.620
So, in some parts of the world, like,
00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:23.639
and I'm sitting here in Brooklyn, New York, and
00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:25.440
believe me, I'm white. You know what I mean?
00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:28.299
Like, nobody's like, if I was living in Poland
00:14:28.299 --> 00:14:30.940
in the 19th century, well, then no, right? Like,
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.860
the Jews are seen as this separate thing. They
00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:34.340
have a separate language. They have separate
00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:36.539
ways of dressing. They have separate professions.
00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:39.340
They have separate... neighborhoods,
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.799
that they live in, in some cases, like real ghettos.
00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.460
But the thing is, as the Jews get emancipated
00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:48.820
in the 19th century, a lot of, which happens
00:14:48.820 --> 00:14:50.539
first in the United States, and then it happens
00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:53.019
in France, and then France conquers most of Europe
00:14:53.019 --> 00:14:54.940
and brings, Napoleon conquers most of Europe,
00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:58.200
and then brings these progressive laws into Germany
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.759
and Italy and even into Poland and to a certain
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:03.600
extent into Russia. So it's a real revolution.
00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:05.720
And throughout the 19th century, the Jews do
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.629
pretty well in Europe, actually. And they are
00:15:08.629 --> 00:15:10.629
allowed to integrate and they're allowed to go
00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:13.330
to universities. They're allowed to enter professions.
00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:15.129
They're allowed to live in other neighborhoods.
00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:18.669
That ends. But at the same time, there
00:15:18.669 --> 00:15:21.429
is a distance. I mean, there's a difference between
00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:25.590
views that some people like the rabbi at the
00:15:25.590 --> 00:15:27.649
beginning of the book. He says, well,
00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:31.080
we're not trying to be like other people. which
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.120
is what people say is assimilation.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.179
We're not trying to be exactly like other people.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.159
What we want is civil rights. We want equality.
00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:41.039
It doesn't mean we want to disappear. Now, the
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.440
Zionists were extremely anti-Jewish religion.
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.720
And this is something that is really hard to
00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.539
explain if you don't really, because there's
00:15:50.539 --> 00:15:52.639
this conflation of Jews and Zionists, but actually
00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.559
the Zionists really didn't like Judaism. They
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:57.600
thought it was medieval. They thought it was
00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.700
holding the Jews back. They thought it was all
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:02.080
these stupid rules and you have to have a beard
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.480
and you have to do all this stuff and you have
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.460
to look weird and all this stuff. And they really,
00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:08.960
which was understandable that people found that
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.940
appealing because these were a lot of the younger
00:16:10.940 --> 00:16:14.700
Jews and these places where Jews were repressed.
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.120
They really were eager to be part of the modern
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.100
world. So that's very understandable. But the
00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:23.740
problem with Zionism, I mean, there's a lot of
00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:26.039
problems with Zionism. But the central prohibition
00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.659
of Judaism is murder and violence. Judaism was
00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:33.059
a pacifistic religion. And so they understood
00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:35.039
that as soon as you get a state and as soon as
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.879
you get an army, the only way to do that is to
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:43.120
overturn the most basic law of Judaism. So you
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:44.500
actually kind of had to get rid of the religion
00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:47.620
entirely. And so a lot of people said, yeah,
00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.789
we are like Catholic. Or we're like,
00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:52.649
Episcopalians or whatever. We're just,
00:16:52.669 --> 00:16:55.149
we're Americans. We're of a Jewish religion.
00:16:55.289 --> 00:16:57.110
Or just like you can say, like, I'm an American
00:16:57.110 --> 00:17:00.649
Catholic or an American Muslim. But that was,
00:17:00.690 --> 00:17:07.490
that was actually quite a conservative
00:17:07.490 --> 00:17:10.950
response. And in the book, I do, one of the things
00:17:10.950 --> 00:17:14.869
I liked about learning about it is that there
00:17:14.869 --> 00:17:17.279
were also, I always knew the left. left-wing
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.640
responses to Zionism and to the pro
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.319
-Palestine left. Actually, there's a pro-Palestine
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.819
right, and there's a Jewish anti-Zionist right
00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:30.460
wing as well. They come out of the same place,
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.440
which is that Zionism is bad, but they come at
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.640
it from very different reasons. Do you want to
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.359
elaborate on that a little bit? Well, so, I mean,
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.160
so if you're an American nationalist, Basically,
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.119
you don't have to be a crazy American nationalist,
00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:47.640
but you basically you are American
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.119
and you want to stay American. You see that Zionism
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.619
is setting up a thing, which they're doing now,
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.700
by the way, very active, which is that basically
00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.420
you are sort of temporarily in America, but you're
00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:04.059
not really there. Your actual homeland is 10
00:18:04.059 --> 00:18:08.200
,000 miles away or else. And this was something
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.140
that was very appealing to anti-Semites as well.
00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:12.009
Because they always said, well, Jews are just
00:18:12.009 --> 00:18:14.950
this fifth column. They're not really like us.
00:18:15.890 --> 00:18:19.569
And the Zionists definitely played up on that
00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:21.769
by saying, like, you're not safe here. This is
00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:24.029
what they're doing now. I mean, I'm
00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:25.990
in New York now, and people are whipping
00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:29.190
up fears of anti-Semitism. And
00:18:29.190 --> 00:18:33.630
I'm here. Like, it's the idea that Jews are unsafe
00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:37.000
in Manhattan is so crazy. But like, people really
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.440
believe it because a lot of us, including me,
00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:43.240
were brought up with a sense of, okay, it feels
00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:46.900
okay now. You're good. But that's what they thought
00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:49.359
in Germany, too. Like, my grandfather was a German
00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.900
refugee from Nazi Germany. Like, so they thought,
00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:54.319
well, you never know. And so you have to support
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.599
Israel because if stuff goes wrong here, then...
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.279
That's plan B. Plan B. And so that's also very
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.980
appealing to people. But the anti
00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:06.660
-Zionists always said, listen, like, you're not
00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:09.660
safe in Palestine either. Nobody's safe forever
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:12.640
everywhere. We don't live in utopia.
00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:14.680
We live in history where things come and go.
00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:17.720
And in fact, in Jewish history, quite a lot of
00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:21.759
times it's gone very well as it is now.
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.099
I mean, the U.S. is not an anti-Semitic country.
00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:27.980
Despite what we're being told in the news every
00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:30.609
single day. I'm still walking down the street.
00:19:31.130 --> 00:19:33.450
What's the psychology of that? I live
00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:37.930
in New York. I have a Columbia alumni card. So
00:19:37.930 --> 00:19:40.250
I got out to campus, even though it was locked
00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:42.990
down during the right during the protests on
00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:45.589
the lawn. I walk in there and I've told the story
00:19:45.589 --> 00:19:48.789
here on the show before. But there was a Jewish
00:19:48.789 --> 00:19:51.509
woman, a young woman with her rabbi, and she
00:19:51.509 --> 00:19:55.650
was convulsed in tears is very upset and she
00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:58.109
and I looked around to see if any what
00:19:58.109 --> 00:20:01.710
had provoked this and there was just the encampment
00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:04.670
which was very sleepy I mean literally the kids
00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:06.950
were inside the tents the tents were closed they
00:20:06.950 --> 00:20:09.569
were sleeping there were there was nothing
00:20:09.569 --> 00:20:13.730
going on no chanting no walking around no marching
00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:16.450
nothing it couldn't have been more boring I was
00:20:16.450 --> 00:20:18.630
really disappointed trying to report on it
00:20:19.180 --> 00:20:21.660
And I was looking around, and I was like, and
00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:24.519
she's like, how could they think this? How could
00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.299
they be like this? In other words, it was the
00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:31.900
idea of an anti-Israel, pro-Palestine protest,
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:38.240
keffiyehs, Palestinian flags, that just had her
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:43.000
in hysterics. And I thought, it's all in her
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.819
mind. And I was just like, what is the psychology
00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:50.579
there? Well, I mean, it's a really unmovable
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:52.619
psychology in a lot of ways for certain people.
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:54.740
I mean, I was brought up with a little bit of
00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:56.359
it. Like, I didn't grow up in a really, I always
00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:57.960
emphasize, like, I didn't grow up in a super
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:01.440
Zionist environment at all. I grew up in a pretty
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.900
normal American, middle class world
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:09.079
where we were taught about anti-Semitism. But
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:10.700
I also grew up in the U.S. South. Like,
00:21:10.700 --> 00:21:12.779
my parents grew up under Jim Crow. Like,
00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.650
we learned all about that stuff. too we learned
00:21:15.650 --> 00:21:19.250
all about feminism the women's
00:21:19.250 --> 00:21:20.910
suffrage movement we learned about all these
00:21:20.910 --> 00:21:23.950
movements and I think that we were taught
00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:27.569
I was taught I thought I was the moral of the
00:21:27.569 --> 00:21:30.569
story is don't discriminate against people take
00:21:30.569 --> 00:21:33.849
people as they are and don't this is
00:21:33.849 --> 00:21:36.369
bad for Jews yeah sure it's bad for everybody
00:21:36.369 --> 00:21:39.200
else too like let's not do this But I think a
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.180
lot of people that grew up in really strictly
00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:44.019
Jewish environments where they really didn't
00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:46.940
know other people. I didn't go to school. I went
00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:49.720
to normal schools. I didn't go to school with
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:54.019
just Jews. But the overemphasis on the Holocaust,
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:56.039
and I think that we should learn about the Holocaust,
00:21:56.180 --> 00:21:58.119
obviously. I think we should learn about slavery.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:21:59.880
I think we should learn about the genocide of
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.859
the Native Americans. I don't think that anybody
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:08.319
has this exclusive thing on oppression. But a
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.400
lot of people who grow up in those Jewish environments,
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.400
they are so brutalized, really, into believing
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.160
themselves to be victims. And you say, like,
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:19.779
wait a minute, like, you grew up in suburban
00:22:19.779 --> 00:22:22.059
New Jersey. Like, you're okay. Like, the Holocaust
00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:24.720
did not happen in Santa Monica, California,
00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:27.460
or wherever you're from. But like, they can't
00:22:27.460 --> 00:22:29.859
get out of that. And it's really a prison. I
00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:31.599
think Zionism is a kind of prison for Jewish
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.519
people. Like, they can't step aside and say,
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.589
wait, wait. I am walking down 116th street or
00:22:38.589 --> 00:22:40.369
wherever you are, and that's exactly
00:22:40.369 --> 00:22:44.369
it. Yeah. And like somehow I'm Jewish and still
00:22:44.369 --> 00:22:47.190
like going to go to CVS and buy some toothpaste
00:22:47.190 --> 00:22:49.950
or whatever I was doing that day. They can't,
00:22:49.950 --> 00:22:52.430
but like, I do understand it because I have this
00:22:52.430 --> 00:22:56.190
Holocaust background myself and there is a sense
00:22:56.190 --> 00:23:21.039
of. Okay. Let's see. We'll hopefully. can you
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.180
hear me yes yes you're good sorry I got a phone
00:23:25.180 --> 00:23:28.880
call on my other phone no worries it happens
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:32.400
sorry about that no but so I do understand
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.490
that psychology but I think the question is always
00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:39.849
like, what is what you're being told true? So
00:23:39.849 --> 00:23:42.289
I had to do a lot of my book, at least the beginning
00:23:42.289 --> 00:23:46.950
is like, what did, what was I told in my background
00:23:46.950 --> 00:23:50.589
that turned out to be not true? And it's actually
00:23:50.589 --> 00:23:53.250
quite a lot. And I, it's really quite upsetting
00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:55.390
to think that, that like the people, like my
00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:58.720
parents, who again, my parents are not. fanatic
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.079
at all they never even set foot in Israel
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.660
there weren't like those people that
00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:05.759
were I mean there are people like that like if
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:07.660
you're Jewish like you know those like Israel
00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:10.539
fanatic people but they weren't like that
00:24:10.539 --> 00:24:12.839
and they're actually quite liberal people
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.259
but they did sort of they kind of in
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:18.480
the back of their head they always had this idea
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.740
of like what if it happens again so yeah it's
00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:27.460
well I don't like as somebody who's Native American
00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:31.220
and African American have both, we don't, we
00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:35.839
never really got that capability of using either
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:39.559
genocide or slavery as a justification for anything.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.980
And the idea of using it now, people will look
00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:45.500
at you like you're insane. And yet somehow -
00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:47.779
Yes, because we're white. Is that what it is?
00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:51.000
Yes, of course it is. I mean, I think it is in
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.619
this country. I think that like Zionism, if you
00:24:53.619 --> 00:24:56.500
look back, A lot of what becomes real toxic identity
00:24:56.500 --> 00:24:59.759
politics in this country, it actually originates
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.240
with Zionism in certain ways. Because if you
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.279
look at the history of Black or Native American
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:08.680
struggle, just to take two, Black people
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:10.859
weren't given the option to kind of melt into
00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:15.339
the melting pot, right? No. And we were. But,
00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:18.200
like, I think that a lot of what I thought of
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.460
as Holocaust education, right? Like, I thought
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:22.299
about, like, this is good. It's good to learn
00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:26.019
about this. was actually a kind of way of allowing
00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:29.720
Jews to be victims in a way that we really weren't.
00:25:29.859 --> 00:25:34.279
Because actually, if you look at income and education
00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:35.920
and all that stuff, Jews are at the very, very
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:41.160
top of the whole American scale and have been
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:43.400
for at least two or three generations. So,
00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:47.289
where is this oppression? we all have this
00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:49.950
memory of oppression that is actually very recent
00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:53.150
my grandfather was as I said was a refugee
00:25:53.150 --> 00:25:56.049
from Nazi Germany so it's not that far away
00:25:56.049 --> 00:25:58.990
so it's not crazy to me but I think what the
00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:01.650
anti-Zionists were always saying they were saying
00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:04.650
it in all these different voices was this is
00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:07.710
just going this can't work it's going to be a
00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:10.349
total disaster and here are the reasons so I
00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:12.309
try in my book to give as many of those reasons
00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:15.680
as I can well it has been a disaster I mean,
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.480
and just to be clear, this idea of this victimhood
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.960
thing, what is taking place in Israel currently
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.440
has, I would argue, destroyed that narrative.
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:29.819
But not for some people. Not for some people.
00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:34.380
That's the thing. So, like, I grew up, the way
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:36.579
I grew up, and I think, I mean, I don't know,
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.279
I'm sure other people have this too,
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:40.799
from different backgrounds. I don't know if you
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.799
had this as a Black or Native American person
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.319
growing up, but like, I was really taught to
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:47.660
think of myself as lucky, to think of myself
00:26:47.660 --> 00:26:51.640
as, despite all this stuff, you have to do certain
00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:54.319
things. You can't, you have to represent certain
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.980
things. Like you can't bring Jews into disrepute
00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:02.299
by certain behaviors, such as things that anti
00:27:02.299 --> 00:27:04.180
-Semites associate with Jews, like
00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:06.539
especially money stuff. Like you have
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:08.819
to be as honest as you can. You have to be, and
00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:12.279
you can't. And the other one was racism. You
00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.420
can't. You can't complain. Like you're
00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:18.859
lucky in America and you should be on the side
00:27:18.859 --> 00:27:22.599
of trying to help other people who are. But like
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:24.420
if I had started whining about like I'm being
00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:26.279
repressed because I'm walking across the campus
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.480
of Columbia, like I can just see my grandmother
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.519
whooping my ass. She would have been so embarrassed.
00:27:31.779 --> 00:27:33.799
She was like, you think you're in Nazi Germany?
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:35.299
What the hell are you talking about? Like this
00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:37.759
would have been so undignified. And I think that
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.549
like. That sense of dignity has gone missing
00:27:40.549 --> 00:27:43.710
from a lot of the ways that a lot of Jewish people
00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:49.089
now are interacting with society. And you see
00:27:49.089 --> 00:27:50.710
it in ways, I think because of social media,
00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:53.269
you just see that like Zionism is sort of a,
00:27:53.349 --> 00:27:56.710
it's almost a mental illness. Like people who
00:27:56.710 --> 00:27:59.549
are inside of Zionism, like they really, they're
00:27:59.549 --> 00:28:01.269
either inside of Zionism because they're actually
00:28:01.269 --> 00:28:03.329
bad people and they're really legitimately racist.
00:28:03.430 --> 00:28:08.230
Or a lot of them are just, they're really. they're
00:28:08.230 --> 00:28:10.730
traumatized, but it's not their trauma.
00:28:10.769 --> 00:28:14.190
It's someone else's trauma. And that's the part
00:28:14.190 --> 00:28:17.509
that's really hard for me to accept. Let me skip
00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:19.789
ahead a little bit. I mean, now we have three,
00:28:19.829 --> 00:28:22.210
and I want to go back to Israel itself as an
00:28:22.210 --> 00:28:24.650
apartheid state or the brief against it as an
00:28:24.650 --> 00:28:27.569
apartheid state. We now have really existing
00:28:27.569 --> 00:28:30.250
Zionism, right? Three quarters of a century.
00:28:30.430 --> 00:28:32.690
We have a nation state. We have the experiment.
00:28:33.349 --> 00:28:36.950
We see how it's gone. I mean, Obviously, it's
00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:39.309
hard to predict the future. But at this point,
00:28:39.369 --> 00:28:42.470
it looks like Israel has, at least in the foreseeable
00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:45.609
future, is going to be really isolated, right?
00:28:45.730 --> 00:28:48.970
I mean, support in this country is just running
00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:52.089
out like the tide. Young people have
00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:55.039
turned against it. Voters of both parties have
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.920
turned against it. I mean, it's not hard to imagine
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.480
in 10, 15 years that the U.S. relationship with
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:03.440
Israel is not going to be anything close to what
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:06.359
it is now politically. I think it'll be unsustainable
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:11.680
for either party. I mean, what happens then if
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.099
I'm right and Israel becomes basically like,
00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:17.180
it's a city state in the middle of
00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:20.349
the Middle East. It's just it's
00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:23.450
all by its lonesome I mean does it con is it
00:29:23.450 --> 00:29:26.369
able to continue somehow or I mean what's there
00:29:26.369 --> 00:29:29.809
any or is there any also is there any reckoning
00:29:29.809 --> 00:29:32.509
about the what happened in Gaza and
00:29:32.509 --> 00:29:35.170
and what is going on now well also in Gaza still
00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:37.890
but also in the West Bank and now Lebanon and
00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:40.970
Syria and all that everywhere I mean because
00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:42.990
it's not just a city-state that's just sitting
00:29:42.990 --> 00:29:45.309
there minding its own business right it's a city
00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:47.589
-state that has been bombing and murdering people
00:29:50.069 --> 00:29:52.950
enormous, almost unthinkable scale. Because,
00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:54.589
we see a little corner of what's happened
00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:56.630
in Gaza. We see a little corner of what's happened
00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:59.130
in Lebanon, like Syria. No, I don't think, I
00:29:59.130 --> 00:30:02.089
think it's very much, it's a completely unsustainable
00:30:02.089 --> 00:30:05.049
project. I think that 10 or 15 years is probably
00:30:05.049 --> 00:30:08.569
generous. I think that they know that, and that's
00:30:08.569 --> 00:30:10.490
why they're just trying to create as much mayhem
00:30:10.490 --> 00:30:13.920
as they can. But I think that... Forgive the
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:15.960
analogy, but it reminds me of like,
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.779
1944 when the Nazis knew they were going to lose
00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:19.980
and they were like, we've got to kill as many
00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:21.859
Jews as we can before we go out of business.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.000
Or in my book, I think the better analogy in
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.319
this case is apartheid South Africa. So,
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.279
Ronnie Kasrils, who's this great struggle
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.059
hero who spent 27 years in exile fighting for
00:30:33.059 --> 00:30:37.160
free South Africa. He says, don't forget apartheid
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:41.970
was never as violent. Because this is a thing,
00:30:42.069 --> 00:30:44.950
like once you get, so apartheid actually
00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:46.569
starts, I mean, officially, there's all sorts
00:30:46.569 --> 00:30:49.630
of racial operation, if you want to
00:30:49.630 --> 00:30:53.089
call it that, before 1948 in South Africa, which
00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:54.630
is the year of the State of Israel. It's also
00:30:54.630 --> 00:30:56.769
the year of the official beginning of apartheid
00:30:56.769 --> 00:31:00.309
as an official policy. And for a long
00:31:00.309 --> 00:31:02.990
time, even in the 80s, they thought
00:31:02.990 --> 00:31:05.309
that they could sustain apartheid because South
00:31:05.309 --> 00:31:07.630
Africa was actually very rich economically and
00:31:07.630 --> 00:31:10.690
it was very strong militarily. in large part
00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:13.130
because of its collaboration with Israel. You
00:31:13.130 --> 00:31:14.930
know, they got the nuclear bomb from Israel.
00:31:15.069 --> 00:31:18.670
They supported each other. They had the same
00:31:18.670 --> 00:31:23.250
basic view of the neighbors, put it that way.
00:31:23.529 --> 00:31:27.369
And then something goes wrong economically.
00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:29.470
That's basically what happened, and militarily.
00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:32.390
And I mean, Israel is in a very bad position
00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:36.690
right now. I very much hope that Zionism can
00:31:36.690 --> 00:31:43.569
be destroyed. and that a state equality and
00:31:43.569 --> 00:31:46.470
and a non-racial state can be established there
00:31:46.470 --> 00:31:49.250
but we're not I mean I don't make predictions
00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:51.569
about it I just think from history these
00:31:51.569 --> 00:31:54.329
regimes don't survive historically Rhodesia didn't
00:31:54.329 --> 00:31:56.230
survive Algeria didn't survive South Africa didn't
00:31:56.230 --> 00:31:58.829
survive Nazi Germany didn't survive
00:31:58.829 --> 00:32:03.009
Kirby of Milosevic didn't survive there's Rwanda
00:32:03.009 --> 00:32:06.190
the Hutus in Rwanda didn't survive
00:32:06.190 --> 00:32:10.599
so I mean there's just a very low chance historically
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:12.359
that you can get away with something like this.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:21.140
Would there be consequences? Because I have a
00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:24.279
hard time. I have to be honest with you. I don't
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:28.660
know how the state collapses without. Let me
00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:30.559
ask you this. Do you think that the state collapses
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:33.859
without American support? Meaning, I think America
00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:36.200
is going to go through hard times. At some point,
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:37.900
meaning whether it's economic, whether it's military,
00:32:37.940 --> 00:32:39.799
I don't think we can maintain the way that we've
00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:42.779
been engaging. But that also means that Israel
00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:45.019
and the billions that we get, the weapons that
00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:47.779
they get in order to continue this kind of military
00:32:47.779 --> 00:32:50.299
expedition. I'm curious from your take, just
00:32:50.299 --> 00:32:53.680
as an aside, a conversation that's often had,
00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:58.640
whether it's whether Israel is the dog on a leash
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.339
or whether Israel is controlling America in this
00:33:03.339 --> 00:33:06.900
case. Where do you fall on this? Just as an aside,
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:09.180
you've done research into Israel and everything
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:14.400
else. I think it's, I really, I mean, I'm shocked
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.000
by what Israel could say. There's no other country
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:18.980
in the world that would get away with this and
00:33:18.980 --> 00:33:21.940
get away with interfering in American elections,
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:26.019
with punishing American politicians, with interfering
00:33:26.019 --> 00:33:29.099
in our media. buying up TikTok, buying
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:31.859
up now CBS and Paramount and all this explicitly
00:33:31.859 --> 00:33:35.000
for the purpose of protecting Israel.
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.160
If China did that, or even if France did that,
00:33:38.259 --> 00:33:40.099
if an allied country that nobody's
00:33:40.099 --> 00:33:42.079
really afraid of or England did that, people
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:45.160
would freak out. But no, I think Israel controls
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.700
a lot. I mean, there is no question about it.
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.039
And this is one of the things when we're talking
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.640
about anti-Semitism is, like, how do you react
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:54.579
when there's an anti-Semitic theory,
00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:57.180
like the Jews control the media? And then you
00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.380
have Larry Ellison saying, I'm buying TikTok
00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:02.940
to protect Israel. Like, you don't even, it's,
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.619
what do you even, how do you even talk about
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:11.500
that without falling into anti-Semitism?
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.880
Or the Macklemore thing. That's a great example.
00:34:16.139 --> 00:34:18.179
Well, that's actually really, I mean, I'm obsessed
00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:20.980
with that actually, because I think it's a big
00:34:20.980 --> 00:34:23.860
shift because that was like three weeks ago,
00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:28.320
two weeks ago. you see the reverse Streisand
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.119
effect, which even a month ago, people were getting
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.000
canceled. People like me. It's changed. And now
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.179
the shoe is on the other foot. And they're not
00:34:37.179 --> 00:34:39.440
going to, they've been used to bullying us and
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.059
pushing us around and smearing us as racists
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:44.980
and smearing us as whatever. But I think that
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:47.659
there's not really a lot of muscle memory among
00:34:47.659 --> 00:34:53.349
Zionists for bullying. having consequences, because
00:34:53.349 --> 00:34:56.070
you say consequences, but they haven't had any.
00:34:56.170 --> 00:34:58.409
So as you know, if you've ever raised a child
00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:02.530
or a dog, if you let them do stuff, they'll do
00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:07.670
it. And so I think there's going to be a real
00:35:07.670 --> 00:35:12.989
price tag. And I think the anti-Zionists have
00:35:12.989 --> 00:35:16.530
been warning of this for more than a century,
00:35:16.630 --> 00:35:19.130
and nobody listened. I think, yeah, I mean, you
00:35:19.130 --> 00:35:21.309
say this in the book explicitly. I couldn't agree
00:35:21.309 --> 00:35:24.230
more. It's like it was people, clear-headed
00:35:24.230 --> 00:35:27.650
people, Jewish people, saw this 150 years ago.
00:35:27.750 --> 00:35:31.949
This was the logical outcome of this philosophy.
00:35:32.269 --> 00:35:36.309
We have a question from a viewer from under.
00:35:36.869 --> 00:35:38.789
Archbishop Tutu, who grew up in South Africa
00:35:38.789 --> 00:35:42.929
under apartheid, visited the occupied West Bank
00:35:42.929 --> 00:35:45.590
and saw Israeli apartheid was far worse. Have
00:35:45.590 --> 00:35:50.780
you been to Israel? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I
00:35:50.780 --> 00:35:52.559
will. What do you think? Yeah. Well, I'll tell
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.539
you something that I think is the origin of this
00:35:54.539 --> 00:35:56.900
book. I was in Hebron, which is in the West Bank,
00:35:56.980 --> 00:36:00.880
which is an ancient city. And I was allowed to
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.880
walk down the street, literally walk down the
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:07.159
street because of my quote unquote race and because
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.659
of my foreign, good passport. Right.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:12.659
Like I have an American passport, so I can kind
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:16.679
of come where I want to go. And there was. And
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.559
I was guarded by people, these soldiers, Israeli,
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.099
quote unquote, Israeli soldiers. And I talked
00:36:22.099 --> 00:36:23.480
to them. And even though I've lived
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:25.219
abroad for a long time, I still speak English.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.940
And I can tell when people are from like,
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:31.280
Brooklyn or California. And I was like,
00:36:31.300 --> 00:36:33.480
and these are the quote unquote indigenous people
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.159
who have come there. I'm allowed to walk down
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.690
the street now. I grew up as I said I grew up
00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:41.309
in Texas I know I wasn't there
00:36:41.309 --> 00:36:44.829
for Jim Crow but it wasn't that far away
00:36:44.829 --> 00:36:46.889
like when I when I learned about Martin
00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:48.389
Luther King and stuff it felt like the middle
00:36:48.389 --> 00:36:50.190
ages that like black people couldn't go to the
00:36:50.190 --> 00:36:51.889
movie theater or something and it's just like
00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:54.909
that was really weird but like I remember
00:36:54.909 --> 00:36:56.989
I still talk to my parents about it like
00:36:56.989 --> 00:36:59.210
it was really like that was just the reality
00:36:59.210 --> 00:37:04.639
of their society and it It felt so disgusting
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:06.659
to have that. And then I went to South Africa
00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:08.719
for this book. I mean, it just feels physically
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.940
like, I don't want to be in a place where like
00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:14.099
the actual inhabitants of the city are not allowed
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:15.699
to walk down the street because they're of the
00:37:15.699 --> 00:37:18.900
wrong race. That just doesn't, that just burns
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.519
my stomach. But then I went to South Africa to
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.340
interview Ronnie Kasrils for this book. And he
00:37:24.340 --> 00:37:27.599
said, oh, he said, South Africa was never as
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.460
bad as. And that's what you quote.
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:32.920
Archbishop Tutu, but Nelson Mandela said the
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.579
same thing. Oliver Tambo said the same thing.
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:37.239
I mean, there was never like a black city in
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:40.079
South Africa that looked like Gaza. They just
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:41.760
basically wanted to keep black people down to
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:45.099
clean their toilets, to mine their
00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:47.539
diamonds, but they weren't actually murdering
00:37:47.539 --> 00:37:50.739
them. I mean, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
00:37:50.739 --> 00:37:53.679
that was post-apartheid that Archbishop Tutu
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.300
also led, they determined that about 8,000 people
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.639
had been killed under the 50 years of apartheid.
00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:02.630
almost 50 years of apartheid now like Israel
00:38:02.630 --> 00:38:05.170
reached 8,000 deaths in Gaza within a couple
00:38:05.170 --> 00:38:09.170
of weeks so Israel's the the mass killing machine
00:38:09.170 --> 00:38:15.449
of Israel is it's on a much more terrifying scale
00:38:15.449 --> 00:38:18.110
than even that I mean there's it's just
00:38:18.110 --> 00:38:21.309
there's really nothing that that compares to
00:38:21.309 --> 00:38:24.429
it how do you even get them out of that mindset
00:38:24.429 --> 00:38:28.900
I mean like to put it in perspective Israeli
00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:33.239
soldiers raped a man on TV. The audience, 60
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:37.099
% said that should be okay. And even when there
00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:39.420
were protests in Israel where it was like 9 million
00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:40.820
people, you got like a million people on the
00:38:40.820 --> 00:38:43.539
street. They were there because they wanted their
00:38:43.539 --> 00:38:46.380
hostages back, not because they cared about what
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:48.039
Netanyahu was doing from the standpoint of the
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:51.059
murder and mass killings of all of the people
00:38:51.059 --> 00:38:52.440
that were effectively there and putting them
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.360
in camps. Well, they protested for the written
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.480
business too. Yeah, which is kind of my point.
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:03.380
A population like that, how do you retrain? How
00:39:03.380 --> 00:39:06.960
do you? And can I just add to that? I mean, it's
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:11.079
also I mean, to what extent how isolated is the
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:13.579
information space within Israel? I mean, given
00:39:13.579 --> 00:39:16.050
the fact that, first of all. They're the only
00:39:16.050 --> 00:39:18.469
people in the world who speak this resurrected,
00:39:18.670 --> 00:39:22.090
formerly dead language, and the media is carefully
00:39:22.090 --> 00:39:26.849
controlled. Many Israelis are not really getting
00:39:26.849 --> 00:39:29.269
a sense of how they're perceived by the rest
00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:30.710
of the world. No, no, no. They know exactly.
00:39:31.190 --> 00:39:33.489
Oh, really? Okay. First of all, they have the
00:39:33.489 --> 00:39:36.949
same phone you and I have. They do speak English.
00:39:38.070 --> 00:39:42.409
Most of them do. Even in Hebrew. Well, a lot
00:39:42.409 --> 00:39:44.440
of them are from New York. obviously but like
00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:46.840
not but they're not they're not
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:49.460
in North Korea I mean that's one of the weird
00:39:49.460 --> 00:39:51.280
things about Israel and if you look at the polling
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.000
you have like something like 82 percent
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.559
of the population supports the genocide so like
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.440
what do you do with those people I I honestly
00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.820
at this point I don't really care what I care
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:02.219
is what do you do with the Palestinians and how
00:40:02.219 --> 00:40:04.039
do you stop the killing of the Palestinians and
00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:06.880
how do you save them because I think they're
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:09.880
doing it I mean we've been paying them to do
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.260
it but they're doing it they're doing it and
00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:15.079
we are paying and it's so like they
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:18.159
have to live with themselves ultimately and
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.539
I but I think that Palestinians also have to
00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:23.420
live with them and when you say like how many
00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:25.340
people it's only seven million Jews and something
00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:28.659
like 500,000 Israeli Jews have been directly
00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:31.739
involved in the time either as soldiers or a
00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:34.940
support staff or something where they've actually
00:40:34.940 --> 00:40:37.159
they're not just looking at their phone
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:41.139
they're actually doing it I don't know. My concern
00:40:41.139 --> 00:40:44.420
now is really with the Palestinians. And how
00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:48.699
do we stop the bombs falling as Jews and also
00:40:48.699 --> 00:40:51.639
as Americans and as citizens of these lots of
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:53.420
countries, not just Americans, who have helped
00:40:53.420 --> 00:40:58.340
this? And I don't have the answer. Well, stopping
00:40:58.340 --> 00:41:00.940
the bombs falling is easy. Stop giving them money.
00:41:01.059 --> 00:41:03.280
Stop giving them weapons. Stop supporting them
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.639
in the United Nations. Stop, et cetera, et cetera.
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:09.250
Oh, yeah. And if that happens. economic isolation
00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:12.590
yeah well that's happening I mean that's going
00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:15.170
to happen they can buy their way out of everything
00:41:15.170 --> 00:41:17.070
they want you see what they've done I mean here
00:41:17.070 --> 00:41:18.889
we are in Rumble but like there's all these platforms
00:41:18.889 --> 00:41:22.909
now that are not controlled by Zionist
00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:26.610
people and they're growing and growing and the
00:41:26.610 --> 00:41:29.110
people don't trust the mainstream media and it's
00:41:29.110 --> 00:41:31.289
not just I mean there's lots of reasons people
00:41:31.289 --> 00:41:33.429
don't trust the New York Times and all these
00:41:33.429 --> 00:41:36.570
other places How are you being treated, by the
00:41:36.570 --> 00:41:38.670
way, as an author? I mean, you're with a major
00:41:38.670 --> 00:41:42.590
publisher. Is it hard to get publicity, get interviews
00:41:42.590 --> 00:41:46.110
from mainstream media outlets? It's hard to get
00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:49.289
fair interviews. It's hard to get fair attention.
00:41:49.489 --> 00:41:51.369
It's hard to get out of what I write about in
00:41:51.369 --> 00:41:53.289
the book, which is the speech rules. But you
00:41:53.289 --> 00:41:55.809
have to say, do you support Hamas? No, I don't
00:41:55.809 --> 00:41:57.670
support Hamas. Do you do this? Do you do that?
00:41:58.710 --> 00:42:00.909
to actually get to the moral and ethical and
00:42:00.909 --> 00:42:03.369
intellectual core of my book, which is the question
00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:06.190
of like, why are Jews against this? Should more
00:42:06.190 --> 00:42:09.969
Jews be against this? They'll go quite far out
00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:14.010
of their way to question your intellectual credentials,
00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:18.949
to smear you. I mean, I've gotten a lot of smears.
00:42:18.949 --> 00:42:23.019
I'm anti-Semite. I'm a self-hating
00:42:23.019 --> 00:42:25.039
Jew. I mean, it's, you see in the book, like
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.820
this vocabulary is so consistent that it's like,
00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.400
they've been saying all the way back. Yeah. Oh,
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:32.219
like they have, they haven't had a new thought
00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:34.800
in years. All they do every once in a while,
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:36.239
they get a new, they hire a new
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:39.519
PR agency, but basically they've gone on and
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.780
on mirroring people, Nan Goldin, who,
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:46.800
the book ends with the famous photographer,
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:51.170
I mean, she is like, This quite
00:42:51.170 --> 00:42:56.949
small, now older woman who is a photographer.
00:42:57.070 --> 00:42:59.110
And the things they say about her. I mean, it's
00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:02.429
just, you can't imagine the hatred that they
00:43:02.429 --> 00:43:06.130
have for Jews who protest this. I mean, not to
00:43:06.130 --> 00:43:08.150
mention Palestinians who are hardly even human
00:43:08.150 --> 00:43:13.429
for them. Hardly even matter at all. So, yeah.
00:43:13.570 --> 00:43:16.949
So, I mean, it's, we're in the same media environment,
00:43:16.989 --> 00:43:19.750
but I think they don't understand. how much it's
00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:21.610
shifted and how much of an audience there are
00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:23.849
for I mean I don't know how many people are watching
00:43:23.849 --> 00:43:26.789
here today or after it's online but
00:43:26.789 --> 00:43:29.309
but there's a massive if you look at the just
00:43:29.309 --> 00:43:31.670
any YouTube thing about Palestine you have hundreds
00:43:31.670 --> 00:43:34.429
of thousands of people watching I suspect this
00:43:34.429 --> 00:43:38.349
will do well yeah for sure Ed Sheeran thing
00:43:38.349 --> 00:43:40.389
is a really good indication of that like I don't
00:43:40.389 --> 00:43:42.110
know if you saw recently he came out gave this
00:43:42.110 --> 00:43:45.849
scripted apology oh my God crying at the end
00:43:45.849 --> 00:43:51.360
of the show It was so pathetic. It was that
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.699
German word, Fremdscham, where you...
00:43:54.699 --> 00:43:57.679
Schadenfreude. No, Fremdscham, where you're
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.980
afraid. You feel afraid for someone who's making
00:43:59.980 --> 00:44:04.860
a fool of themselves. I was going to do another
00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:08.599
foreign expression, which is in Spanish, they
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:11.489
say, you don't have any blood in your face. which
00:44:11.489 --> 00:44:12.969
means like you're so shameless that you don't
00:44:12.969 --> 00:44:23.110
blush like you have no shame and that's I felt
00:44:23.110 --> 00:44:25.650
like that guy I was like you have no blood in
00:44:25.650 --> 00:44:27.389
your face you are coming out here and you're
00:44:27.389 --> 00:44:29.550
still giving this thing I think that like if
00:44:29.550 --> 00:44:31.630
he had sincerely apologized and he had said listen
00:44:31.630 --> 00:44:35.110
like I am a performing artist and I rely on people
00:44:35.110 --> 00:44:37.690
like Robert Kraft I'm really embarrassed that
00:44:37.690 --> 00:44:41.619
I caved into this pressure and I apologize free
00:44:41.619 --> 00:44:46.260
Palestine would have been a hero but like but
00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:48.900
I mean so I what I always want to say
00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:53.820
is that like I I have an evolution that I
00:44:53.820 --> 00:44:57.400
tell about in this book I'm not giving anyone
00:44:57.400 --> 00:44:59.179
a purity test like a lot of people have made
00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:03.219
mistakes including me and I've written things
00:45:03.219 --> 00:45:06.840
and said things I'm totally mortified by I meant
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:09.809
it well But I still thought that there was something
00:45:09.809 --> 00:45:12.090
about Zionism or Israel that could be saved.
00:45:12.210 --> 00:45:14.869
And I don't think that anymore. But if other
00:45:14.869 --> 00:45:17.909
people haven't gotten there yet, I don't want
00:45:17.909 --> 00:45:19.949
to bully them and say they're stupid or they're
00:45:19.949 --> 00:45:21.809
racist or all this other stuff that people say.
00:45:22.170 --> 00:45:24.590
I just want, like, if someone can read my book
00:45:24.590 --> 00:45:27.230
and they're like 40% skeptical about Israel
00:45:27.230 --> 00:45:30.349
and Zionism and I'm getting like 46%, then I
00:45:30.349 --> 00:45:33.590
feel like, okay, I feel like I've at
00:45:33.590 --> 00:45:38.000
least not betrayed what I think of as my... moral
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:41.360
obligation. And that seems like a great place
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.059
to leave it. Thank you so much for coming on
00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:47.239
and for writing this amazing book. It was a real
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:48.860
pleasure to read it. And it was a pleasure speaking
00:45:48.860 --> 00:45:52.300
to you. Thanks so much for having me on. Anytime.
00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:54.239
Absolutely, man. Thank you for this. All right.
00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:59.699
Take care. All right, so that was Ben Moser.
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:03.119
For people who joined us in the middle of it,
00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:05.159
I would encourage you to go back and watch the
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:07.019
interview from the beginning. He's the author
00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:10.179
of Why This World, a biography of Clarice Lispector,
00:46:10.219 --> 00:46:13.199
but more importantly right now, the author of
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.440
the book we were just talking about, Anti-Zionism,
00:46:15.579 --> 00:46:20.849
A Jewish History. He's a smarty pants.
00:46:20.969 --> 00:46:23.329
He won the Pulitzer Prize. I'm jealous. I was
00:46:23.329 --> 00:46:27.590
only a finalist. So anyway, yeah, I thought I
00:46:27.590 --> 00:46:29.369
thought I mean, I knew this was going to be good.
00:46:29.469 --> 00:46:34.090
And it was. Yeah, that's fascinating. We had
00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:37.929
to get Robert Shapiro on. Rabbi Shapiro is in
00:46:37.929 --> 00:46:40.010
a similar vein where he makes the argument. I
00:46:40.010 --> 00:46:43.139
don't know if Shapiro wrote the book on it. But
00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:46.059
he goes into this notion of anti-Zionism, Zionism,
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:50.519
and how Zionism hates Judaism. Which is so perverse.
00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:55.539
I mean, Zionism is an apostasy of Judaism. It's
00:46:55.539 --> 00:46:58.739
anti-Jewish. It's heretical. I mean, it really
00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:01.139
is. It's a political movement. And the argument
00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:04.269
that is usually made is... It's rejecting the
00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:09.110
study of Torah in favor of let's set up our own
00:47:09.110 --> 00:47:13.469
ethnostate where we can be the batterers. Yes.
00:47:13.610 --> 00:47:17.469
It became that. I think it was awesome. I think
00:47:17.469 --> 00:47:20.730
it was an awesome guess. JT, he answered questions.
00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:30.929
There was no Sonali-isms. It's amazing. So you
00:47:30.929 --> 00:47:33.510
come on, you ask a question and he gives you
00:47:33.510 --> 00:47:35.530
an answer. You can agree with it. You can disagree
00:47:35.530 --> 00:47:42.150
with it. It is. Like, hey, is the sun hot? Yes.
00:47:42.409 --> 00:47:48.110
Be like, whoa. It's fucking hot. Right. No, he's
00:47:48.110 --> 00:47:50.920
great. he's great yeah I would have him back
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.500
anytime for sure one thing I would love to ask
00:47:54.500 --> 00:47:58.219
either him or or some other anti-Zionist
00:47:58.219 --> 00:48:01.960
rabbi and this is from a a feminist Christian
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:08.820
aspect to the to a Jew how do we break the power
00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:13.079
of Zionism and dispensationalism in the Christian
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.009
church because that's the that's the shield That
00:48:17.009 --> 00:48:19.250
Israel has. In the U.S. Yeah, for now. But you
00:48:19.250 --> 00:48:20.889
heard what he said. I mean, he kind of agreed
00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:25.269
with me that things aren't looking
00:48:25.269 --> 00:48:27.909
good for Team Israel these days. And it's not,
00:48:27.949 --> 00:48:30.489
this relationship's not going to last.
00:48:30.929 --> 00:48:33.050
They don't know that. The dispensationalists.
00:48:34.369 --> 00:48:36.889
I mean, pardon me. What is dispensationalists?
00:48:36.889 --> 00:48:38.190
Just so I'm clear. I want to make sure we're
00:48:38.190 --> 00:48:41.329
on the same page. So what dispensationalism is,
00:48:41.409 --> 00:48:43.949
so there's two different pillars of it. One is
00:48:43.949 --> 00:48:46.449
that they believe that God works in different
00:48:46.449 --> 00:48:49.389
dispensations of time. So think about chapters
00:48:49.389 --> 00:48:52.230
in the book. In one chapter, God works one way.
00:48:52.230 --> 00:48:54.429
In another chapter, he works another way. Then
00:48:54.429 --> 00:48:56.150
another chapter, he works another way. So basically,
00:48:56.269 --> 00:48:58.610
it's like he's playing 5D chess. He's not consistent
00:48:58.610 --> 00:49:03.030
with what he has to do. The one thing that the
00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:06.400
dispensationalists teach, though, is that Jews,
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:09.280
not the children of Abraham, but Jews specifically,
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:12.619
are always the chosen people of God. So if God
00:49:12.619 --> 00:49:14.460
changes his mind based on what chapter of the
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:16.860
book that you're in, why does this one footnote
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:19.159
with this asterisk always go right on through?
00:49:19.820 --> 00:49:22.480
That doesn't make any sense, especially since
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.239
the Bible over and over and over again says,
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.920
I, the Lord, thy God, I change not. He never
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.920
changes. And so me, I'm a Baptist. I believe
00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:36.579
that you're saved by faith. Faith in what? Faith
00:49:36.579 --> 00:49:38.940
that I will be redeemed. I'm a sinner. I'm fallen.
00:49:39.139 --> 00:49:41.739
How do I get my sins forgiven? By asking for
00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:43.780
forgiveness. Ethnicity doesn't play into it.
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:47.059
My race doesn't matter. If you go through, if
00:49:47.059 --> 00:49:50.139
you read the Pauline Gospels, he was a Pharisee.
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.599
He studied under the chief rabbi at the time
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.280
of the temple named Gamaliel. I count it all
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:59.039
as dumb. My religion profits me nothing. My race
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.500
profits me nothing. We're all one in Christ.
00:50:02.989 --> 00:50:06.170
So the thing is, I hate to interrupt this, but
00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:07.690
we have 10 minutes left in the show. We have
00:50:07.690 --> 00:50:09.829
a hard out at 10 o'clock, and we do have to
00:50:09.829 --> 00:50:13.530
hit two topics. Okay, bye-bye. Okay, sorry about
00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:15.429
that. Thanks, Robby. That was very rude of me.
00:50:15.590 --> 00:50:17.110
We'll break down that one. Couldn't be helped.
00:50:17.630 --> 00:50:21.829
Okay, so let's get to it. U.S. taxpayers have
00:50:21.829 --> 00:50:25.789
already blown $44 billion or more, really, to
00:50:25.789 --> 00:50:30.349
go after Iran with Israel. We're sending $3 billion
00:50:30.349 --> 00:50:34.809
more. of your money to Israel for bombs now the
00:50:34.809 --> 00:50:37.230
Wall Street Journal says that Trump wants to
00:50:37.230 --> 00:50:40.570
send five billion dollars more to the Gulf states
00:50:40.570 --> 00:50:43.150
who last time I checked were not poor people
00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:46.250
in order to repair the infrastructure that got
00:50:46.250 --> 00:50:49.269
destroyed by the Iranians because we attacked
00:50:49.269 --> 00:50:54.110
Iran I mean I can see the case I can see the
00:50:54.110 --> 00:50:56.510
argument here I mean after all it's like hey
00:50:56.510 --> 00:50:59.849
the reason that their got blown up is our
00:50:59.849 --> 00:51:03.039
fault I mean that's kind of true on the other
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:08.739
hand okay go they made they made their agreements
00:51:08.739 --> 00:51:12.000
they made their bet with the US they chose Fat
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.579
Tony to defend meaning they made all these choices
00:51:17.130 --> 00:51:18.829
The idea that Donald Trump is talking about sending
00:51:18.829 --> 00:51:21.349
billions when he claimed that Saudi Arabia was
00:51:21.349 --> 00:51:23.289
spending a trillion dollars in the United States.
00:51:23.989 --> 00:51:25.889
OK, if they're spending that much money in the
00:51:25.889 --> 00:51:28.329
U.S., just tell them to keep five billion of
00:51:28.329 --> 00:51:30.929
it. Repair their infrastructure. Why do we need
00:51:30.929 --> 00:51:33.650
to send the money? No, they made their bet in
00:51:33.650 --> 00:51:35.949
this. They chose to work with the U.S. They
00:51:35.949 --> 00:51:38.670
chose to ask America to go after Yemen. They
00:51:38.670 --> 00:51:41.309
chose the stuff. Obama didn't go to Saudi Arabia
00:51:41.309 --> 00:51:43.489
and said, hey, would you like to bomb Yemen?
00:51:43.949 --> 00:51:46.409
Saudi Arabia came to Obama and said, we would
00:51:46.409 --> 00:51:49.130
like to bomb Yemen. Obama might have given them
00:51:49.130 --> 00:51:50.969
the green light, but Saudi Arabia is the one
00:51:50.969 --> 00:51:53.090
that chose to do it. Saudi Arabia has been running,
00:51:53.230 --> 00:51:55.969
I'm not going to call it a genocide, even though
00:51:55.969 --> 00:51:59.269
I call it a genocide-like operation in Yemen
00:51:59.269 --> 00:52:02.190
for the last, what, 10 years. They made their
00:52:02.190 --> 00:52:05.289
bets. Why are we paying for the bet that they
00:52:05.289 --> 00:52:07.329
made? Tomorrow, effect on the midterms, right?
00:52:07.469 --> 00:52:09.170
I mean, this just seems like just another brick
00:52:09.170 --> 00:52:10.789
in the wall for the Republicans, where it's like
00:52:10.789 --> 00:52:14.090
another story about how everything,
00:52:14.250 --> 00:52:16.750
prices are going up, incomes are going down,
00:52:16.829 --> 00:52:19.610
and we're sending taxpayer money not to help
00:52:19.610 --> 00:52:22.010
Americans, but to help people who could well
00:52:22.010 --> 00:52:24.949
afford to take care of themselves. A head-chopping
00:52:24.949 --> 00:52:28.239
dictator. Right. I mean, it seems like a whole
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.719
lot of bullshit. Okay. P.W. Walker, 1360. Thanks
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.940
for the five Canadian dollars. Ellison used the
00:52:34.940 --> 00:52:37.539
U.S. government to force the sale of TikTok
00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:40.500
to him. So it's worse than just the purchase
00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:44.820
itself. And $10 very much. Thank you very much
00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:49.119
from Tulio Pantacoloni. Biden has literally stated
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.659
that he's a Zionist on video multiple times.
00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:55.940
Vanderland says that. They follow the principles
00:52:55.940 --> 00:52:59.719
of the Talmud. How do we remove these psychopaths?
00:52:59.960 --> 00:53:02.539
Well, Biden is no more, but Trump is just as
00:53:02.539 --> 00:53:05.840
bad. Yeah, all of them are horrible. I mean,
00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:08.139
like, I don't know if you saw. By the way, do
00:53:08.139 --> 00:53:10.059
you agree with what I just said? Because you
00:53:10.059 --> 00:53:12.050
can say. JT, I think you're out of your mind.
00:53:12.150 --> 00:53:13.469
I think the U.S. is pushing you. No, I think
00:53:13.469 --> 00:53:18.230
you're right. It's like they climbed into bed.
00:53:18.769 --> 00:53:20.969
I mean, look, they did the stupidest thing that
00:53:20.969 --> 00:53:23.949
you can possibly do. Instead of making nice with
00:53:23.949 --> 00:53:26.829
their next-door neighbors, they went and ended
00:53:26.829 --> 00:53:29.670
up sucking foreign cock from the other side of
00:53:29.670 --> 00:53:32.150
the planet, from another hemisphere. And then
00:53:32.150 --> 00:53:34.269
they're surprised that they're getting their
00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:37.230
ass kicked in return. It's like the Ukrainians,
00:53:37.250 --> 00:53:40.210
right? The Ukrainians... Job one, if you're the
00:53:40.210 --> 00:53:43.010
president of Ukraine, is to make nice with Russia
00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:46.289
because it's a big, powerful, culturally similar
00:53:46.289 --> 00:53:49.050
next door neighbor with hundreds of miles of
00:53:49.050 --> 00:53:51.809
common border. I mean, similarly, if
00:53:51.809 --> 00:53:54.889
you're Qatar, job one is to make friends with
00:53:54.889 --> 00:53:57.809
all of your neighbors, including Iran. And if
00:53:57.809 --> 00:53:59.929
you choose not to do that, and Iran controls
00:53:59.929 --> 00:54:03.769
the critical Gulf of Hormuz that you need in
00:54:03.769 --> 00:54:06.110
order to get your shit in and out of, unless
00:54:06.110 --> 00:54:09.659
you're flying. then like, that's on
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:14.320
you. You basically went to war as a vassal state
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:17.820
of Israel and the U.S. And yeah, you lost for
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:20.880
it. And I mean, I'm thinking from the point of
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.619
view of the U.S., Fat Tony sometimes
00:54:23.619 --> 00:54:26.300
needs to say, okay, okay, I'll take care of you
00:54:26.300 --> 00:54:30.659
because you did this for me. But
00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:35.320
yeah, it's all about Fat Tony these days. And
00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:41.250
let's see. We see. Oh, Richie says, I've had
00:54:41.250 --> 00:54:43.409
Robby's playlist on autoplay for at least 24
00:54:43.409 --> 00:54:46.110
hours. I'm going to put that back up here. That's
00:54:46.110 --> 00:54:49.289
on YouTube. Go to West Glacier Gaming. Do the
00:54:49.289 --> 00:54:51.769
same thing. Go to a playlist and play Robby's
00:54:51.769 --> 00:54:55.610
longest playlist. It's over and over. He needs
00:54:55.610 --> 00:54:59.090
that. It's important to us. And thanks for joining
00:54:59.090 --> 00:55:01.570
us and all that. If you missed the Ben Moser
00:55:01.570 --> 00:55:03.469
interview, I recommend that you go back and check
00:55:03.469 --> 00:55:06.409
it out. TMI coming up in five minutes. But we
00:55:06.409 --> 00:55:10.260
do have time to talk about Belarus. fertilizer
00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:13.840
is it's partly an oil byproduct and
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:17.840
the there's been if the price of it's been
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:20.880
going way up farmers are getting their asses
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:23.340
kicked financially here in the US due to the
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:27.599
war due to inflation due to oil prices
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.539
blah blah blah so Trump said oh don't worry
00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:34.059
I have a solution even though I've declared a
00:55:34.059 --> 00:55:36.840
trade war with the Canadians and the Canadians
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:38.679
I've pushed them off to become associate members
00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:42.679
of the EU and I have giant tariffs against them
00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:45.440
and so your fertilizer costs are
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:47.199
going through the roof where you normally source
00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:50.670
it from Canada Don't worry. I've got your back.
00:55:50.849 --> 00:55:54.210
I've talked to Alexander Lukashenko, the president
00:55:54.210 --> 00:55:58.389
of Belarus, and he's got your back. He's shipping
00:55:58.389 --> 00:56:02.690
that sweet, sweet Belarusian potash all the way
00:56:02.690 --> 00:56:05.349
across Europe and across the Atlantic Ocean to
00:56:05.349 --> 00:56:07.630
the great United States of America, and you will
00:56:07.630 --> 00:56:12.030
now have cheap fertilizer. The problem is someone
00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:14.070
talked to Lukashenko, and he's like, I don't
00:56:14.070 --> 00:56:16.510
know what the fuck you're talking about. We barely
00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:19.530
have enough for ourselves. we ain't exporting
00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:22.909
nothing to no one so I don't know I thought this
00:56:22.909 --> 00:56:27.329
was very droll it's like it's
00:56:27.329 --> 00:56:29.849
just it's just another it's just another ridiculous
00:56:29.849 --> 00:56:34.230
story right I mean it's just I mean Trump
00:56:34.230 --> 00:56:37.250
just makes up and then people discover that they're
00:56:37.250 --> 00:56:40.269
being lied to I don't think it's a
00:56:40.269 --> 00:56:42.630
I mean they they know they know instantaneously
00:56:42.630 --> 00:56:45.369
farmers are very smart people they have to be
00:56:45.369 --> 00:56:50.460
in order to stay in business I mean, is Trump
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:53.059
losing his mind? I mean, what is this about?
00:56:53.260 --> 00:56:56.360
And not to mention, Belarus is literally in a
00:56:56.360 --> 00:56:59.940
national union with the Russian Federation. It's
00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:03.320
literally like this, right? I mean, there's no
00:57:03.320 --> 00:57:05.820
way they're sending anything to the United States
00:57:05.820 --> 00:57:08.699
without checking with Vlad. And Vlad would, they
00:57:08.699 --> 00:57:10.380
don't need to check with Vlad because Vlad's
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:13.800
saying no. I mean - It's Joseph Goebbels. Goebbels,
00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:18.389
no. In the last days of 1944, Goebbels - I'm
00:57:18.389 --> 00:57:19.829
sure you've seen it. It's famous. It's kind of
00:57:19.829 --> 00:57:21.690
like the Baghdad Bob of his day. So don't worry.
00:57:21.769 --> 00:57:25.130
We have Panzer divisions waiting to intercept
00:57:25.130 --> 00:57:28.429
the Russian hordes on the eastern border. We're
00:57:28.429 --> 00:57:31.550
going to be fine. It's coming in. Trump was looking
00:57:31.550 --> 00:57:33.730
at the economic numbers. Trump doesn't know how
00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:37.070
to read polls and spreadsheets. I don't know
00:57:37.070 --> 00:57:40.690
how to read at all. He doesn't know numbers.
00:57:40.789 --> 00:57:42.289
You can't go into debt the way that he did without
00:57:42.289 --> 00:57:45.260
understanding. The red number was good. Black
00:57:45.260 --> 00:57:49.360
number bad, right? So he understands that we
00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:53.440
are heading for a really rude awakening. And
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:56.139
he's like, don't worry. Everything's fine. Your
00:57:56.139 --> 00:57:58.380
housing prices should be going up. That's okay.
00:57:59.719 --> 00:58:03.320
We love the inflation. Best quote ever. If I
00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:05.360
were the Democrats, I'd have that on loop. Look
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:09.239
at Wall Street. It's doing so well. Which is
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:11.820
true. But that's what Trump is looking at. The
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:15.539
guy, he is the Joseph Goebbels of our day. Well,
00:58:15.579 --> 00:58:17.199
I think they may be looking at a war to get us
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:20.340
out of it. We're in two of them. I mean, what
00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:22.820
do you need? Like, I give an example. Right now,
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:25.599
EU or the NATO countries have put out a propaganda
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:29.000
film trying to get white Europeans ready to die
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.139
at the hands of Russians. It's not like Europe
00:58:32.139 --> 00:58:34.579
is geared up for it. Russia has geared up for
00:58:34.579 --> 00:58:36.590
it. from the standpoint of legislative, I mean,
00:58:36.610 --> 00:58:38.570
Russia put through a policy through the Duma,
00:58:38.610 --> 00:58:40.570
many people may not have paid attention to it,
00:58:40.610 --> 00:58:42.349
that effectively points out that if there are
00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:44.690
Russian citizens anywhere that are being maligned
00:58:44.690 --> 00:58:46.610
in any particular way, Putin has the legal authority
00:58:46.610 --> 00:58:49.050
to go in and get those citizens. Looking at you,
00:58:49.150 --> 00:58:52.579
Estonia. Like meaning they are gearing up for
00:58:52.579 --> 00:58:54.539
this. Russia's not playing with this. They have
00:58:54.539 --> 00:58:57.219
hundreds of thousands of men in wait with new
00:58:57.219 --> 00:58:59.179
military kit and hardware and everything else
00:58:59.179 --> 00:59:01.820
in preparation for a larger war with Europe that
00:59:01.820 --> 00:59:03.380
Europe seems to be doing everything in their
00:59:03.380 --> 00:59:05.380
power to provoke. Will the U.S. get involved
00:59:05.380 --> 00:59:07.800
or will the U.S. just look at it as here's a
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:10.000
business opportunity? Good question. This will
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:12.710
bring us out of Al-Morais. That does it for
00:59:12.710 --> 00:59:15.269
today. By the way, just some clarification about
00:59:15.269 --> 00:59:17.869
something that came up yesterday. The YouTubes
00:59:17.869 --> 00:59:21.070
really are $5, $10, and $20. The higher sums
00:59:21.070 --> 00:59:24.550
that were cited were if you pick the tax-free
00:59:24.550 --> 00:59:27.969
options. So it sort of automatically adjusts.
00:59:27.969 --> 00:59:32.429
But if you do this through your phone, I think
00:59:32.429 --> 00:59:35.030
it ends up costing more than if you do it through
00:59:35.030 --> 00:59:41.000
a desktop, iOS, or whatever. So do it through,
00:59:41.139 --> 00:59:43.039
if you don't want to pay that higher,
00:59:43.300 --> 00:59:47.500
I don't know. I'll have Robby come on to explain
00:59:47.500 --> 00:59:50.739
this, but we've got to go. Okay. We'll see you
00:59:50.739 --> 00:59:53.980
guys tomorrow. Two-hour show, 9 to 11 a.m.
00:59:54.260 --> 00:59:56.400
tomorrow morning Eastern time. Looking forward
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:59.880
to it. See you then. Bye, everyone. Bye, Jesse.
01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:01.039
Ciao. Bye-bye.