From Lab to Launch – Avoiding the Pitfalls of Drug Development

WEBVTT
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Hello, and a warm welcome to the latest edition of Conversations in Drug Development,
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brought to you by the team at Boyd's.
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This podcast is for our fellow community of scientists and clinicians working
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in the wonderful world of cell and gene therapy and drug development.
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Thank you for tuning in, and we hope you enjoy the conversation.
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So, welcome to the latest Boyd's podcast.
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My name is Neil Fish. I'm the Chief Business Officer at Boyd's,
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and the podcast is called Don't Do This at Home, How to Avoid the Perils of Drug Development.
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And I'm joined by Ami Patel. Hi, Ami. Hi, Neil.
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Good to be here with you. My name is Ami Patel in the U.S.
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Office of Boids, here to talk about the drug development process and the success.
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Fantastic. Yeah. And between us, we've been doing this forever, haven't we?
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Yes. You're more than me. Yeah. Well, I've been doing it for almost 40 years,
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and we won't go into how long you've been doing it for.
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And I think between us, we've seen almost everything, haven't we?
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We have. So, you know, one of the first things we see is people basically coming
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in and they haven't got a plan. They actually haven't got the first idea of what they're doing.
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So how can we help them? I mean, but also what shouldn't they be doing to start with?
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To really put it simply, honestly, you need a plan.
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Don't wing it. You need to go on a blackboard and sit down and decide exactly
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what is it that success looks like to you.
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What are you looking to get out of in terms of the different milestones from
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an investor perspective and the regulatory milestones,
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and then map out the plan in detail in terms of all the different program aspects
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from beginning to end of whatever that milestone it is that you're looking for.
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It is too often that development, the optimization of the product.
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The formulation development, This is done in a manner, I like to say this often,
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don't turn this into a PhD thesis where you are constantly just,
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oh, maybe if I do this, then it'll work. Or let me tweak this and it'll work.
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But what I really think is that it's really critical that you design every study
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that goes into the program.
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You need to have a detailed map of different studies for preclinical,
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for proof of concept, what are the endpoints that you're looking for,
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what is the result of those studies,
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you are tying the success of your program development that you're looking for
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and have a decision tree around those experiments to progress the program in a positive manner.
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To sum it up, honestly, don't wing it. Have a plan. Have a decision tree.
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Think about each different analytical aspects to characterizing success or the
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marker of what it is that you're trying to develop.
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And if an aspect didn't work, then try to have a meeting or a pause and try
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to dissect why it didn't work before just jumping into the next idea or the
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next experiment without proper thought.
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I think that often in trying to be speedy with the drug development process early on,
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trying to meet some of the milestones to get to an investment phase,
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you overlook some basic development considerations
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that actually would get your drug killed very
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early on before you even get to the proper series
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a fundraising you want to have a designed plan
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and a program and a detailed design of experiment that leads you to a favorable
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outcome for your milestones for regulatory and investor perspective yeah and
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i think also i mean you've got to be flexible haven't you because things are
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going to go wrong this is oh yes development is all about things going wrong isn't it?
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So you're going to need to advise that plan as well, aren't you?
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And you have to be willing to listen to those that have more experience and
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learn from that process.
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It's a very good point. I mean, having these plans, it's really,
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really important, isn't it, to help if you're trying to raise money?
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Because people are going to ask you questions about how long is it going to
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take and how much is it going to cost as well. And that's some of the things
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that we do very early on for our clients, where we develop a regulatory roadmap, a regulatory strategy.
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What does that look like? We help them with a product development roadmap.
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And that really is something that many of our clients have put into their pitch
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deck, and it actually raises their success. And so, Neil, now on to you.
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You've taken a company from startup stage to a quoted company on the London Stock Exchange.
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Can you share insights on how you achieved that and things that work and didn't
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work, your learnings? Yeah.
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No, it was an amazing experience, I think is the first thing to say.
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And it was one of those things that, as I started my career,
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I had no idea where I was going to do this.
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But circumstances about being made redundant in the 90s, and I met someone who
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had an idea for a company, and then two other people joined.
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And I think the very smart thing we all did at one point was to be humble enough
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and look at each other and say, we're not the CEO. We've never done this before.
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I mean, it was very obvious we'd never done this before. When we spoke to a
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venture capital firm, the first thing they wanted to do was replace all of us,
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which obviously didn't go down well.
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And we actually, in the end, managed to get the company financed and floated.
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But i think you know it's really important to not
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be proud to be you know to be humble about this and we
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we were really lucky to find a real superstar
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who just happened to be exiting after a mega
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pharma merger and he wanted to sort of have
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a crack at a young company and yeah i owe him so much for what he taught me
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and i know one of my colleagues does as well we worked together for 10 years
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with this particular person but and he had done it all from like preclinical
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right the way through to getting an MA approved.
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And at every step, he was able to sort of point us in the right direction to plan.
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And frankly, you know, at that early stage, he taught us how to do it as well.
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Things went wrong all the time. And without him, the thing would have collapsed
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literally within months.
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So it was utterly critical to find someone who knows what they're doing.
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And as the company grew and developed, you know, we needed more specialties
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like patent agents and clinical trial specialists.
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And the other clever thing we did was to run a virtual model.
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So we didn't go around trying to recruit hundreds of people because firstly,
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nobody would give us the money to do that anyway.
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But we subcontracted and had all these amazing sort of advisors and people who work with us.
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And for a small company that only ever had 17 people at its maximum.
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It ended up running four clinical programs of which two were in phase three.
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But with all these advisors all around us who knew what they were doing and
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they could absolutely help us. It
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was quite amazing that the firepower and expertise that the company had.
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It was something I'm incredibly proud of.
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But the year before I started it, if you had told me I was going to be doing
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this, I wouldn't have believed you.
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I didn't probably even know how to do it. It was one of those things,
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finding somebody who has the wisdom and the expertise and the knowledge to take
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you on that journey was incredible.
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And I think that's one of the things I love about Boyd's is that we actually
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now also do this with our clients.
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Within Boyd's, within our team, you know, we have a great many people who've done this now.
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And like you, I love working with the people who come in very early preclinical, need that plan.
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And then we help them go, particularly sort of early preclinical to the end of phase two.
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We do a lot of our work with our clients. I think it's just such an exciting
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time and seeing them grow with their companies and learn, etc.
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A great many of them have never done this before, but they are so determined to do it.
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And I feel quite humble talking to them as well because I know how difficult it is.
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Yeah, agreed. It is a proud moment when their products move to the next stage.
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And we can't tout about it publicly, but it is what keeps us going. Yeah.
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So one of the key things when we're doing development, obviously,
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is the CMC, the manufacturing side of everything we do.
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Because obviously, if you can't manufacture your product, well,
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you haven't got a medicine. It's as simple as that.
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And I remember in the early days of my company, when we had our first development
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candidate, and we actually made it with mustard gas, believe it or not. That was a key part.
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And we kind of realized quite quickly, if we're taking this to market,
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we're not going to have to deal with tons of mustard gas to make this product.
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And in the end, we actually made a very simple process using an acid to join
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two chemicals together, which was fantastic.
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So, I mean, what are the challenges you see with manufacturing particularly?
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And I think you nailed it. It's having a lab-based manufacturing process that
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is perfect and gives you the best data.
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But if it can't be translated during tech transfer for commercial stages,
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then that process will have to be redesigned.
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And so with that in mind, you want to always design the process with the goal of end in mind.
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What does this process look like outside your lab?
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What we see on a daily basis here at Boyd's in terms of some of the early companies,
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especially in product development team, is that these are very early state startups,
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two to five team members, sometimes in an incubator lab space or they're in
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an academic or a hospital institution.
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They don't necessarily have all the ideal tools for initial drug development
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and proof-of-concept studies.
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They have to make do with what is available. And with that in mind,
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they designed the process for
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the lab, but the minute it has to be transferred to a different lab or,
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you know, you want to scale it up and try formulating it at a CRO or a CDMO,
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then it does not work. It is not repeatable.
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And I think that's where the entire drug development, that initial R&D stage
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of drug development, that needs to be then repeated to make it work in that stage.
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So very early on, you must think about what would the manufacturing process
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look like outside the lab? What does it need to look like?
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It is imperative that you have a protocol even during the R&D stages where you
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are documenting exactly how you are preparing your R&D formulation for be it
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delivery into mice or rabbits or whatever that in vitro model is that you're
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testing your therapeutic product in.
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But you want to have a process that can be repeatable, not just in the lab,
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but outside your academic or your incubator lab in an appropriate GMP style tech transfer lab.
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One of my early roles during and after my PhD was at a preclinical CRO.
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I had a little bit of exposure to manufacturing at that time,
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and it was incredible how what was made in the lab and tested in the in vitro
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models, how the data had less noise, less variability.
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But the minute that was manufactured at a large scale at a CDMO in a GMP facility,
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the same exact product, you would think that would have the same level of variability or results.
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It was not the same in a nutshell. It was too noisy.
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The data was too noisy. The variability was too high.
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The lot-to-lot variability was too high during manufacturing.
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And we had to then go back, try to minimize some of the factors that were causing
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that variability. And that does end up wasting a lot of time.
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So if you build in the end in mind during your early manufacturing process development
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stage, build in the right CMC characterization parameters, you don't want the whole GMP tool,
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all the GMP tools for analytical characterization, but something that is good
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enough to give you the confidence that your process is working.
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It's repeatable and can be transferred into another lab, another facility,
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and is robust enough to stand the challenges and still give you the same proof
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of concept data outside of that small lab scale formulation or product.
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That is the way to approach manufacturing from very early on.
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It might take a little bit more time in the beginning when you start with that
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approach in mind, but you will save a lot more time down the line.
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And one of the things that always used to bemuse me is that the early stages,
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you don't actually want to make the products as pure as you can make it because
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you need the impurities for the toxicology. Yes.
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I've seen that, that people have made it so pure, right to start with,
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that later on, when they did change the process a little bit,
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they've got all these new impurities that, you know, they probably would have
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got with a dirtier process at the beginning.
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I'm sort of using dirty in a sort of strange way there but
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there's the timing isn't it of how you improve that
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process and get rid of impurities and then
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understand the ones you've got and as you scale
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up isn't it agreed yeah so
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going back to what we were talking we talk about on a daily basis for the most
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part of your career you've been tasked with in licensing products and sourcing
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deals You still do this a lot at Boyd's when we're all doing due diligence and
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preparing some of our clients for investor readiness.
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Can you emphasize a little on the key learnings from that experience?
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Yeah, I mean, I think one of the major ones always for me was to protect the invention.
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You would hope in today's world that everybody is smart enough and wise enough
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to at least file a patent before they go out and publish.
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And I say this because in the past, some of the world's biggest biopharma inventions
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were never patent protected.
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You know these just weren't in the uk particularly the
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probably the most famous one is the underlying technology
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to produce monoclonal antibodies was never patent
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protected it was published and never protected and
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the number of drugs that were developed you have multi multi billion dollar
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drugs from that technology is it's probably quite frightening to think about
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but yes when i was doing a deal you know when doing deals i mean the patent
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life is absolutely critical because first of all, you've got to get the product to market.
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And secondly, how much time have you got left to get the return on the investment
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you've put into the development?
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Ideally, when you're working with a patent agent, trying to get at least a composition
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of matter patent to start with, which is the highest level of protection you get, is critical.
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But then you go down a level of use patents and second use patents.
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And in Europe, sometimes you can get market exclusivity, which runs for sort
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of longer than it does in the United States. And that can be quite useful as well.
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But there are also rare occasions when you don't need patent protection.
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Sometimes, you know, trade secrets can work really well.
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I mean, I think one of the famous examples, non-farmer, is Coca-Cola,
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which still has, I think there's still trade secrets on that and how it's made.
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But, you know, I've seen companies with manufacturing processes that are very
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complicated or there's a particular trick you need and no one ever publishes
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anything, no one ever says anything.
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And that can work surprisingly well as well. So while patents are fantastic,
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there are other ways of protecting it.
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And I've seen some very big factories with literally rooms that you're not allowed
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in to see the magic trick.
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So it sounds a bit strange.
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But I think in today's world, I mean, I think everybody sort of starting off
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knows that the moment they've got a sort of development candidate or a process
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that needs to be protected, they would at least be talking to a patent agent.
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And ideally the sooner you can do that the better because
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how you plan your patent strategy you
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need to basically try to extend the patent life as
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long as possible to get the return on investment i
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mean when you talk you see published figures of how much does it cost to get
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a billion dollar drug to market is it a billion dollars is it two billion it's
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a big number and you need that exclusivity period to sell the product to be
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able to get the return on investment but it doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to.
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I think everybody's learned the lesson, but it's something that's so easy to
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get wrong, particularly in this modern age of social media, et cetera,
00:17:12.095 --> 00:17:15.895
where all of these things count as disclosures, which can invalidate patents
00:17:15.895 --> 00:17:17.635
that you file. You've got to be so careful.
00:17:18.075 --> 00:17:22.935
Yes. And I think one of the things that we often see is that if the patent is
00:17:22.935 --> 00:17:25.695
not being used for the intended purposes.
00:17:26.335 --> 00:17:30.255
Inventors can then also outlicense that and that can be another revenue stream
00:17:30.255 --> 00:17:32.375
that they can they can have if right,
00:17:32.995 --> 00:17:35.815
yeah no you've got a really good patent agent working for you
00:17:35.815 --> 00:17:39.235
you can be it sometimes amazes me how long you
00:17:39.235 --> 00:17:42.195
can get protection for you know can be a very very
00:17:42.195 --> 00:17:47.095
long time and and so certainly some of the more recent sort of blockbuster biological
00:17:47.095 --> 00:17:51.895
products the first wave of maps some of those had patent protection and they
00:17:51.895 --> 00:17:55.935
called it evergreening you know they somehow managed to sort of re-patent it
00:17:55.935 --> 00:17:59.275
almost and extend the patent life to very long periods of time,
00:17:59.735 --> 00:18:02.695
as well as the challenges of actually making these types of products.
00:18:03.615 --> 00:18:07.055
So at Boyd's I mean one of our big things you know we're very strong in the
00:18:07.055 --> 00:18:11.855
regulatory area you know we've got an amazing regulatory team so question is
00:18:11.855 --> 00:18:15.675
what shouldn't you do when you go and talk to a regulatory authority?
00:18:16.578 --> 00:18:19.918
Well, very basic. Don't upset them.
00:18:22.838 --> 00:18:29.178
Be humble. For the most part, regulators around the world are really keen to
00:18:29.178 --> 00:18:31.218
get some of these therapies approved.
00:18:31.418 --> 00:18:33.118
They are keen to work with the
00:18:33.118 --> 00:18:37.298
developers. They are trying to help the developers. That is their intent.
00:18:37.718 --> 00:18:42.318
And it ties in with some of the goals and objectives that they have is to get
00:18:42.318 --> 00:18:45.258
some of these products approved and give access to the patients.
00:18:45.938 --> 00:18:52.358
So with keeping that in mind, it is okay to push boundaries where there are
00:18:52.358 --> 00:18:59.698
no appropriate guidances when you have scientific data to support some of the pathways,
00:19:00.058 --> 00:19:03.878
regulatory strategies and pathways that you are seeking to do something novel
00:19:03.878 --> 00:19:10.318
from a perspective of looking at safety or efficacy or defining a new biomarker,
00:19:10.398 --> 00:19:16.978
which is not as commonly used in in clinical trials and in vitro studies.
00:19:17.298 --> 00:19:23.858
But you do want to still realize and work hand in hand with the regulatory authorities,
00:19:23.858 --> 00:19:27.258
because at the end of the day, if you don't have their buy-in,
00:19:27.358 --> 00:19:29.798
if they don't agree with you, then you don't have a product.
00:19:29.958 --> 00:19:31.378
It's really as simple as that.
00:19:31.738 --> 00:19:37.798
And very often then, it is very rare that the regulators will leave you hanging
00:19:37.798 --> 00:19:43.478
and not give you insights on an alternate way to approach what you are seeking
00:19:43.478 --> 00:19:47.098
in terms of approval if they don't agree with your strategy.
00:19:47.338 --> 00:19:53.718
So we like to say at Boyd's, and I am a strong believer in it from the experience
00:19:53.718 --> 00:19:59.618
throughout my career, is that don't be afraid of approaching the regulators as early as possible.
00:20:00.198 --> 00:20:01.658
Ask the questions.
00:20:02.318 --> 00:20:09.678
Know your product. frame the questions in a way that really just helps the regulators
00:20:09.678 --> 00:20:13.038
answer you as directly as possible.
00:20:13.298 --> 00:20:17.878
One of the biggest mistakes a lot of the clients that we see in some of these
00:20:17.878 --> 00:20:22.238
meeting requests to the FDA is that the questions are so vague and broad.
00:20:23.132 --> 00:20:28.072
You don't really get much out of the communication with the FDA or the EMA or
00:20:28.072 --> 00:20:29.892
the MHRA, which we do routinely.
00:20:30.092 --> 00:20:34.692
So you want to also frame your questions correctly. You want to understand what
00:20:34.692 --> 00:20:40.692
is it that you're trying to get out of your communication with the regulatory agency.
00:20:40.952 --> 00:20:44.292
So they want to help you. They want to work with you.
00:20:44.452 --> 00:20:49.692
It is in their best interest and the patient's interest to get a therapy onto market.
00:20:50.252 --> 00:20:55.772
And with that in mind, be humble, work with them, approach the authorities as
00:20:55.772 --> 00:21:01.252
early as possible in as many stages, get buying from them at every stage.
00:21:01.592 --> 00:21:06.872
And if there are ways where there are places where you don't agree on the first
00:21:06.872 --> 00:21:09.012
instant, we do this often.
00:21:09.212 --> 00:21:13.172
We don't always just take a no for an answer. We listen to them.
00:21:13.452 --> 00:21:20.192
We analyze, We work with the data and we say, what can we give more to get buy-in
00:21:20.192 --> 00:21:21.332
on what we are proposing?
00:21:21.592 --> 00:21:24.592
We go with additional data, additional scientific justification.
00:21:25.052 --> 00:21:31.612
And sometimes the regulators do change their mind and they end up working with our proposed ways.
00:21:31.912 --> 00:21:38.212
So don't be afraid to push back also, but with the appropriate scientific justifications and data.
00:21:38.212 --> 00:21:45.392
But again, keeping in mind that you want to make sure that the goal is,
00:21:45.492 --> 00:21:48.012
the objective is to work hand in hand with them,
00:21:48.412 --> 00:21:54.852
use that strategy from beginning to end and to get to your regulatory milestones,
00:21:54.852 --> 00:21:58.472
which at the end of the day are very much tied to the investor milestones.
00:21:59.272 --> 00:22:04.152
Yeah, no, I've seen over my career a number of examples where CEOs have basically
00:22:04.152 --> 00:22:05.932
picked fights with FDA or EMA.
00:22:06.532 --> 00:22:11.172
They're never going to win. I mean, they don't make the rules.
00:22:11.352 --> 00:22:15.912
I mean, FDA and EMA do that. You know, it's just a fight you're never going to win.
00:22:16.012 --> 00:22:20.412
And I absolutely agree with what you just said, that it's best to be collaborative,
00:22:20.672 --> 00:22:25.392
et cetera, because that's really the only way to go, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
00:22:25.992 --> 00:22:31.152
I wanted to touch a little bit on the clinical development of some of the advanced
00:22:31.152 --> 00:22:33.172
therapies, especially that we work on.
00:22:33.332 --> 00:22:37.952
The clinical pathway for the small molecules is relatively, I wouldn't say simple,
00:22:38.172 --> 00:22:40.012
but relatively well-defined.
00:22:40.232 --> 00:22:44.752
But from a perspective of advanced therapies, cell and gene therapies for some
00:22:44.752 --> 00:22:49.012
of the rare diseases, can you shed some light on what role does the clinical
00:22:49.012 --> 00:22:52.692
strategy and the considerations play into drug development? Yeah.
00:22:53.118 --> 00:22:55.538
Yeah, no, it's an interesting one. Yeah, the clinical development,
00:22:55.718 --> 00:22:58.718
obviously, to get the data you need to get the product to prove is critical.
00:22:58.978 --> 00:23:01.918
And a lot of the rare diseases, particularly with the advanced therapies,
00:23:02.198 --> 00:23:06.318
you're talking about really quite small patient populations to start with.
00:23:06.938 --> 00:23:12.418
That can be incredibly challenging to recruit in an ultra-orphan condition.
00:23:12.998 --> 00:23:16.458
So there's been an example recently in the UK of a company where there were
00:23:16.458 --> 00:23:18.858
only 10 patients in the UK.
00:23:19.558 --> 00:23:22.538
And this particular company was trying to recruit those
00:23:22.538 --> 00:23:25.438
patients and i think they only got one or two and it
00:23:25.438 --> 00:23:28.138
took them so long to recruit eventually in the end of
00:23:28.138 --> 00:23:30.898
the day they ran out of money you've got to get this right there's
00:23:30.898 --> 00:23:34.498
a kind of a balance between having a say
00:23:34.498 --> 00:23:37.158
an indication that is rare enough but not
00:23:37.158 --> 00:23:41.198
too rare that you can actually do the study particularly also because there
00:23:41.198 --> 00:23:45.738
might be other companies also trying to recruit the same patients so yeah you
00:23:45.738 --> 00:23:48.778
might not actually be on your own trying to recruit it can be quite competitive
00:23:48.778 --> 00:23:53.198
how it goes about that i think particularly also in europe this is something
00:23:53.198 --> 00:23:55.738
you've got to get really right and i've seen this
00:23:56.178 --> 00:24:00.438
done badly a couple of times i think that it's a truism that once you've launched
00:24:00.438 --> 00:24:03.278
a product you're probably not going to be able to put the price up very much
00:24:03.278 --> 00:24:07.598
that's just kind of the way europe works so you might have a product which might
00:24:07.598 --> 00:24:12.258
have five indications let's say and and this is what we do at boyd a lot the
00:24:12.258 --> 00:24:15.838
question is which is the best indication to go for first and that's kind of a.
00:24:16.598 --> 00:24:21.278
Balance between the clinical benefit and particularly if it's a rare population but also,
00:24:21.863 --> 00:24:26.723
can you actually also recruit the study? And when we do these exercises,
00:24:26.723 --> 00:24:28.783
sometimes it actually turns out
00:24:28.783 --> 00:24:32.683
to be not the obvious one that is the best indication to go with first.
00:24:33.363 --> 00:24:37.423
And I think also, yeah, so in clinical design as well, I think it's really important
00:24:37.423 --> 00:24:41.183
that you measure things which are clinically meaningful.
00:24:41.483 --> 00:24:45.863
I mean, that sounds obvious, but I think we've all seen plenty of studies that
00:24:45.863 --> 00:24:49.263
are measuring things which really don't have much value, actually,
00:24:49.263 --> 00:24:50.783
when you come to market the product.
00:24:50.963 --> 00:24:55.843
I think collecting that data, which can support particularly a pricing sort
00:24:55.843 --> 00:24:57.963
of strategy, et cetera, is so important.
00:24:58.483 --> 00:25:02.383
And I think I particularly enjoy when we bring in the medics,
00:25:02.523 --> 00:25:06.743
the physicians on our team early on in these conversations, because they chime
00:25:06.743 --> 00:25:11.923
in in that first in human study synopsis that goes into the pre-IND meeting packages.
00:25:12.263 --> 00:25:16.203
And I still, I remember this very clearly. One of the clients had,
00:25:16.403 --> 00:25:20.103
going back to what you're saying about putting in a clinical endpoint in your
00:25:20.103 --> 00:25:23.463
protocol, just from experience of our physicians, they said,
00:25:23.563 --> 00:25:26.323
this is not going to work. It is very hard to get this data.
00:25:26.623 --> 00:25:32.023
It sounds right on a piece of paper, on a protocol, but to execute this, it's not realistic.
00:25:32.463 --> 00:25:36.923
And I think at the end of the day, that that was removed. But building in that
00:25:36.923 --> 00:25:42.123
clinical strategy early on, having an idea of what that clinical trial or first
00:25:42.123 --> 00:25:44.643
in human study or what that patient population looks like.
00:25:44.723 --> 00:25:48.083
I think we also work very closely with patient advocacy groups,
00:25:48.143 --> 00:25:52.443
especially because we work on so many of the rare diseases and the orphan drugs.
00:25:52.583 --> 00:25:56.683
It gives you the ability to understand what your patient population looks like
00:25:56.683 --> 00:26:00.283
and what are you going to be realistically able to recruit.
00:26:00.463 --> 00:26:04.883
And also to design the appropriate inclusion and exclusion criteria because
00:26:04.883 --> 00:26:11.303
sometimes you have a buy-in on a particular synopsis on a protocol for a clinical
00:26:11.303 --> 00:26:15.023
study from the regulators, and you're married to that.
00:26:15.243 --> 00:26:20.003
But then when you start to execute it, you realize that you can't necessarily decide
00:26:20.252 --> 00:26:25.532
recruit those patients based on the inclusion-exclusion criteria that you have set out with. Yeah.
00:26:25.992 --> 00:26:28.532
So, Ami, I think we're coming to the end of the podcast. I mean,
00:26:28.572 --> 00:26:29.892
I've really enjoyed that discussion.
00:26:31.052 --> 00:26:35.072
It's an amazing area we work in. I mean, there's so many, but there's also so
00:26:35.072 --> 00:26:39.052
many things that you can get wrong just because, for what it is,
00:26:39.092 --> 00:26:41.972
it's a complicated industry and there are many pitfalls, aren't there?
00:26:42.132 --> 00:26:46.332
So, I suppose the good news is Boyd's can help, really. Yes.
00:26:46.432 --> 00:26:52.572
And that's the part of the best part of working with you and Boyd's and the team alongside.
00:26:52.792 --> 00:26:58.452
For me personally, it is that we go out there, listen to all these amazing innovations,
00:26:58.452 --> 00:27:00.832
what the developers are trying to do.
00:27:01.092 --> 00:27:07.112
And for the most part, we've been there, done that. And we get a lot of insights from our team.
00:27:07.452 --> 00:27:11.892
And we're learning something new every day. So, like you said,
00:27:12.072 --> 00:27:17.152
Boyd can pretty much help you navigate that complex pathway from beginning to
00:27:17.152 --> 00:27:18.992
end. And I like being a part of that.
00:27:19.232 --> 00:27:22.812
We hope you've enjoyed the podcast as much as we've enjoyed doing it.
00:27:22.952 --> 00:27:27.212
And if you'd like to reach out and meet the Boyd's team, the Boyd's website
00:27:27.212 --> 00:27:30.192
is www.boydconsultants.com.
00:27:30.332 --> 00:27:32.572
And we hope to meet you sometime in the future.
00:27:32.852 --> 00:27:34.812
Bye-bye. Thank you, Neil. Bye-bye. Bye.
00:27:39.112 --> 00:27:40.952
Thank you for listening to Conversations.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:28:04.328
Music.