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Good afternoon everyone Welcome to Common Ground this is the mediate.com
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podcast where we talk about all things dispute resolution-oriented mostly mediation but arbitration peacemaking negotiation and really the human work of finding our way through conflict I am your new host Mo Tregenza and today is a really big day for the show because I'm joined by the person who's been your host for the past several years and one of the most consequential voices in modern dispute resolution who I lovingly refer to as the godfather of ODR Colin Rule Colin you're passing the baton to me today which is really wonderful and I'm so excited I couldn't be more thrilled to take over from your very big and wonderful shoes so I wanna just give you the floor for a second and then hop into our discussion Colin welcome Mo, thank you so much.
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I am delighted that you're gonna be taking this on, and, we've been discussing some of your plans and all the cool people you're gonna talk to, and I can't wait to listen to your episodes.
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running the mediate.com
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podcast has been just a joy.
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it's such a pleasure to talk to everyone in the field and learn about all the good work that's going on.
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But, you bring...
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And your passion for mediation and your enthusiasm for the practice is gonna bring a whole new layer to it.
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So thank you so much for taking this on, and I'm really delighted to be here with you today.
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thank you so much I really appreciate your kind words and I know how much fun you and I have talking about this topic because when we get on calls that are supposed to be thirty minutes I feel like they could go for hours So really thrilled to chat today when we started this conversation an idea that I threw out to you was you know are we as mediators leveraging our profession in the field in the way that we can and especially going forward And you have this fantastic history with mediation and you're working on some thinking which I've read recently but you said something recently which I think is so profound and I really wanna dive into this So to quote you We've gotten too comfortable being a part of the establishment So I wanna start there Tell me where that comes from Yeah, you know, it's funny, I did send some thoughts to you before this, and they've been sort of percolating in my mind.
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You know, I was first trained in the late '80s, by the American Friends Services Committee, which is the service committee of the Quakers in Philadelphia, and I went to a formerly Quaker school, and they had something called the Friends Suburban Project, where they went around and they trained people, in Philadelphia in conflict resolution.
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And I was lucky enough in the late '80s to get into one of those trainings, and it was such an exciting time in the dispute resolution field.
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I mean, there were so many organizations that were cropping up to promote dispute resolution.
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There was the National Institute for Dispute Resolution.
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There was the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution.
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I could go on and on.
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And there were maybe a dozen conferences a year Focused on promoting conflict resolution, promoting dispute resolution.
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and, there'd be thousands of people that went to these conferences.
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So me as a young person who first learned about mediation and got passionate about it, and then I became the head of the campus mediation program at my college at Haverford, or the co-chair, and then I wrote my thesis on it, and then I got a job at Nider.
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So I was, just swept into this movement, and, it just felt like we were coming together.
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People were saying, "There's a better way to do this."
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And I had wanted to be a peacemaker when I was in high school, but I didn't really...
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what does that even mean to be a peacemaker? But then I got trained in mediation.
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I'm like, "Aha, this is the science of peacemaking.
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I am going to do this, what I want to do with my life."
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So to look back on those days and see how the culture was changing, how organizations were growing, how young people were being swept up.
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We even were doing peer mediation trainings, in elementary schools and middle schools and getting people at an early age.
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that was such a wonderful, heady time in the field, and I contrast it with kind of where we are now.
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And I find that a lot of the young people that I meet who are passionate about dispute resolution, you know, they're also dispirited by the current environment that we're in.
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It seems like a lot of the values of dispute resolution, you know, empathy and collaboration, expanding the pie, looking for win-win opportunities, a lot of that stuff is just being overwhelmed with this message, this broader message of bare knuckles negotiation, zero sum, you know, aggregate power and force the other side to do what you want them to do.
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I really feel that we need to bring back some of that sense of mission, that sense of the movement that I felt in the '80s, because the reality is we need dispute resolution more than ever, and people are hungry for it.
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I can just see that people feel in their soul they want to be able to talk to people that they disagree with and find a way to coexist and find a way to collaborate and work together.
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So that's kind of what I...
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You know, when you said to me too, we've become a little bit too complacent, I think that's true.
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I think, you know, back in the '80s and even in the '90s, there were this community mediation movement.
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People were volunteering.
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You know, students in colleges were petitioning the dean's office to start mediation programs, and now we have those.
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We did change the culture.
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And now there is mandatory mediation in family courts.
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There is, roommate mediation, but it's been absorbed into the housing office, or it's been absorbed into the courts, and now it's just another administrative step.
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And I think the novelty and the innovation and the values that undergird the work that we do has been lost a little bit because now we're just part of the way things work.
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And yeah, there are other innovations too that, I think about like the first time I zipped through a toll booth with an EZ Pass or, the first time I did my taxes online.
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The first time it was like, "Wow, this is cool.
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This is amazing.
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We should promote this."
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And now it's just normal.
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It's just the way things are.
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And the younger generation, it's just always been around, so it's not something they get particularly excited about.
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So this is-- I wanna inject some of that mission aspect Mm-hmm when I first joined the field, I think is a little bit of an antidote to this kind of complacency or the malaise that I kinda feel has settled over the field in the face of the current environment we're in.
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So I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but I just feel passionately about this.
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So yeah, tell me, what are your thoughts? No I love your rant and this is why I think it's so interesting especially as you know I'm like building a company and I agree with you in the way of like I think of mediation as almost like it like being like yoga and so when I was growing up my mom's friends down at the library did yoga for free and I knew like it was important and valuable but for some reason like it wasn't prolific like we know it today And there's a part of me that's like, Someone needs to like make yoga or mediation you know sexy or Hollywood like you know yoga was and now it's like everybody's willing to wear you know buy expensive you know yoga pants and yoga is a part of every exercise So I really agree with you in this sentiment of we've gotta make it exciting because it is and I totally agree When we talk about some of the language around mediation even within our team and our exploring like what do we call ourselves Is neutral a good word Empathy Right.
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Like being empathetic has turned into a bad thing and wanting That's right.
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And on the other side I couldn't agree more that one of my biggest fears is if mediation and dispute resolution proliferates in a way that we want it to does it become rote Does it become a part of the process, and then people don't take it seriously and that's what worries me So I love this thinking and I couldn't agree more Like moment of magic in mediation and having a meaningful discussion and conversation when you feel it when you see your parties feel it there's nothing like it right And it Absolutely.
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where you go from there I love the yoga metaphor, because I think I see people walking around in their Lululemon yoga pants all the time, and I think, "Are these people really doing yoga?" I mean, yoga is similar to mediation.
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It's existed since time immemorial, and when I go to India, you know, they yoga is a discipline, it's a lifestyle, it's connected to diet, it's connected...
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But it's a long-term practice.
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It's something that you put a lot of yourself into, and you get better, and better, and better over time, and I think that is similar to mediation.
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those of us who've really done it and who are passionate about it, we know the value that can come out of it.
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But if it just becomes, you know, stretching, and, you do it for five minutes, every other week when your back starts to get tight, are you really doing yoga, you know? Are you really embracing the full range? And I think the same is true with mediation.
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I actually have worked in some programs, some courts where, they absorbed an external mediation program, and they brought it inside the courts, and now it's staffed with court employees.
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And, you're working with divorcing couples, and it's kind of a little bit like the DMV, the couples come in, and they sit down with a court employee who has a clipboard, and they just go through, and they check boxes.
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And then they say, "Okay, well, that's your mediation.
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Now you can go in front of the judge."
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And I look at that and say, "Is that really mediation?" I mean, it's, it's, that's not really...
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When we first made th-these tools, a lot of it was animated by the practice, the discipline of active listening, and reflective practice and, confidentiality and all of these things that were core to the concept of what we were putting in place.
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Now I feel like it's just becoming a checkbox, Yeah.
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And, it, it, when you take the heart out of it, I'm not sure it works as well.
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So that's why I'm saying I, I was so inspired by these practitioners that saw this as a movement when I first joined the field, and I love what you guys are doing at Levelheaded because I think you are reinventing mediation for the younger generation.
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You're resuscitating it.
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This isn't just something that, in the '80s, people did, and now you can sort of follow this checklist, and you can do it.
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It's like, no, this is a whole...
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It's, as you say, it's like yoga.
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It's a discipline.
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What you get out of it is what you put into it, and we should inspire people with the values that undergird this work, as opposed to just say, "Okay, well, here's a checklist.
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Go do this," and, then you've started your mediation program.
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Yeah No I I totally I love the idea of the cultural shift and I know this is bold but I I really do have a mission to disrupt the legal system because not not in a nefarious or like evil way My grandfather was a judge and I have a lot of respect for what the legal system means but because I truly know that there is a better way And I think when people experience that like you said it becomes something that you want to be disciplined about It's funny because I just did I worked with the first mediation practicum at CU Boulder So their law school did a class and they worked with Levelheaded in a court that we're working with here and then they worked with another court and I had no idea that they were working together but you're right They that the other court had brought in mediation into the courthouse They now have court administrators watching over the mediation and it is a really stark difference of what is the mediation results in that courtroom where it's been absorbed and really Right and qui a totally different process versus what we do and I think really honoring mediation Absolutely.
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more about a discipline and realizing how much the thought and the concept of mediation is more than just the practice right It is like it's almost like a cultural shift that needs to happen And when you talk about, your grandfather who was a judge, you might know this, I'm a descendant of Oliver Wendell Holmes, actually, the Supreme Court justice.
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I'm not a lawyer.
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My background's in public policy and dispute resolution, but I've read a lot of Holmes because of the connection.
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And, he talks a lot about the beauty of the law.
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This is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, that we built this system and we have this evolving series of rules and guidelines that can help us build peace within society.
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I think that we as mediators deeply respect that, and we often talk about how mediation lives in the shadow of the law.
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But there's also, I...
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There was a book called The Bramble Bush, which was intended for, you know, first-year law students back in the 1920s.
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And, the author, Llewellyn, he says, "What is the law really about? Fundamentally, the law is about preventing and resolving disputes."
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That's why the law exists.
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It's a very complicated dispute resolution process, but it's only one of many processes.
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And, you know, many of us have the Abraham Lincoln quote on our walls, you know, as mediators, "Discourage litigation," you know.
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help your neighbors understand that they can work these things out.
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I think, you know, I was-- When I came into the field, it was part of this big upswing of dispute resolution, and I just got caught up in it, and I was so proud of all the changes that were happening in society, and that's what makes me sad to see that, you know, hey, I feel like the values that undergird dispute resolution are kind of falling out of favor.
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And when I, when I get, you know, anxious about current events, I often look to history because it contextualizes our experience.
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And then I realized, you know, this has been a struggle since time immemorial to fight for these values of peacemaking and empathy and connection and dialogue.
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And we're celebrating at the American Arbitration Association, we're celebrating our 100th anniversary.
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And the founder of AAA, Francis Keller, when she first put together the organization, she was part of this movement too.
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You can read her writings, and it sounds just like the writings from the 1980s.
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And it was this idea of, we can work this out.
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We can collaborate with each other.
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We can resolve problems in a smarter way that doesn't require the scorched earth techniques.
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And it wasn't just her.
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It was Mary Parker Follett.
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It was Jane Addams.
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There was a whole movement in the '20s and '30s to do this, and, I realize it stretches even before them.
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So this is a constant fight.
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There is always the temptation to slide into, prejudice and, judgment and otherism and in-group versus out-group.
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嗯 This is just part of human psychology, and it has been around time immemorial.
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But that's why it's so important that we keep fighting this fight.
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And even in a time where it doesn't feel like our values are in ascendance, maybe they're a little bit in retreat, we have to preserve this flame of the work that we do because there's gonna come a time when the pendulum swings back the other way, and we have to use that flame and go and light all the lanterns again and remind people how coexistence can operate and how we can resolve disputes in a peaceful way that builds relationships, builds trust, builds empathy and connection, as opposed to the division that I think we see all around us these days.
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Yeah I absolutely agree and I also think maybe we're at the cusp of sort of a seismic shift again much like when you were developing your love for mediation There were political and outside things happening that really bore into that sort of cultural mindset and shift and I almost feel like we're getting there right And this need to say Hey you know we are all humans and we can sit down at the same table is becoming more put in the spotlight And I This just made me think of a few years ago there was this really compelling I think it was on Colorado CPR Colorado Public Radio it may have been national But they went around the country and identified different individuals who had really opposite viewpoints of controversial issues So abortion diversity in school Gun issues and they brought people with very different ends of the spectrum to the same table and we were involved with it because mediation right So they did this tour and brought people to the same room and had these open dialogues and it was absolutely magical what came out of it Absolutely.
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they could share their differences of opinion but they realized their humanity in one another and what they came out of it from that was a totally different sense of how they saw the world And I think that right now we're so in need of that mindset shift and that's where the practice of mediation and dispute resolution really demonstrates that Well, I think that there are conflict resolvers, and I think that there are conflict exacerbators.
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And, you know, Bernie Mayer has written very persuasively about this in his many books about how we are conflict specialists.
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We're not just about resolve everything, resolve everything.
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Sometimes there are times when you do have to escalate a conflict in order to make progress.
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And, you know, again, I am not averse to fighting, you know? Like getting out in the streets and making your...
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As long as you follow the rules, you know? Like, look, we have an obligation to speak up for what we believe.
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But yes, dialogue is possible even in these most divisive of civil issues.
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I grew up in Texas, and I now live in California, and many of my friends from the two places, they see the world in very different ways.
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But I love them equally, and I think this idea that we can coexist, our self-interest, our worldviews may contradict, but we can disagree without being disagreeable.
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I think, right now there's just a sense that that's, "Oh, that's weakness," you know? That's, you just don't really care enough about your beliefs that you're not willing to go out and fight the other side about them.
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And I don't think that's what this is at all.
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I think we all hunger for our ability to coexist even when we disagree, and it's not that we have to take these issues that are most polarizing and push them to the front of the conversation and use it to delegitimi- de- de- delegitimize the viewpoints of the other side.
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I sense that hunger and I'm mainly talking about the United States.
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having traveled to other countries, many other countries are in a very different head space than the US, and I think they look at what's going on in the United States with dismay, saying, "Wow, how did this happen?" But I do think that, especially with all of the disruption being introduced by technological change, I think it's been an opportunity for the conflict exacerbators to get an upper hand, and now it's time for the conflict resolvers to push back because that's really the way that this works, is we learn how to live together and even disagree, but, learn to coexist and understand what we share in common exceeds the things that we disagree about.
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our common humanity is so beautiful and I want to touch on this because I think it's so important and something good for our listeners I have also just repeatedly been sort of asked like Why the United States And when I go abroad to different conferences it is just almost the difference of the appetite for mediation and dispute resolution and how people embrace it in other cultures almost makes the US look like we're in the Dark Ages and I think the current political narrative it really exacerbates that And I think you know this that's why this moment for sort of this seismic shift is so so important Right Absolutely.
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Most of those people don't have lawyers and it really affects people and we really don't have a good way to to deal with that What what are your thoughts on that and how dispute resolution comes in I mean, the irony is dispute resolution is more needed now than ever.
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I think back to my heroes from the '80s, they didn't have all the tools that we have at our disposal.
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They didn't have AI, they didn't have mobile phones, they didn't have Zoom.
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the constraints of geography were way more of a burden on their ability to try and expand access to dispute resolution services than we're freed now that we have these tools in our toolbox.
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So the goals that they had of ex- of fast and fair resolutions for all, they did the best they could in their era, but now we can utilize these tools, and that's why I'm excited about online dispute resolution as well, because, my friend Richard Susskind, who's the chief IT advisor to the Lord Chief Justice in the UK, he's written in many of his books about 50% of people on Earth don't have meaningful access to a justice system, to...
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And he calls, they're kind of like the unjusticed, right? Mm-hmm Peace Corps in rural Africa, in Eritrea, and I saw that.
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There was not a meaningful redress system, a justice system was available to most of my neighbors in Dekemhare in Eritrea.
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But how can we solve that problem? You know, I think the tools that we had before, it just was prohibitively complicated to try and figure out how do we expand- meaningful redress around the world.
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Well, if dispute resolution is a service, it's not a place, and we can deliver it through technology, well, then suddenly we have a way to reach that other 50% of people on the planet that don't have a way to get a fair resolution to a problem when they encounter it.
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And I think y- you know, the irony of our moment is that while the values of dispute resolution seem to be kind of under pressure, the need for dispute resolution is greater than ever before.
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And when you talk about the crisis of self-represented pro se litigants, you know, 80% of civil cases in the United States have one party that's unrepresented.
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You know, we need to think outside the box.
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We need to think in creative ways, and that was the reason why we called the field ADR initially, 'cause it was an alternative.
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It was an alternative to what? It was an alternative to the courts.
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and the other thing is, you know, dispute resolution has been around s- as long as humanity has been around.
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I've got, images on my computer of disputes from ancient Mesopotamia, where people are arguing about, you know, the quality of the copper ingots, that were sold from one merchant to another.
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and, you know, there's arbitration awards in ancient Rome and in England at the time of the Magna Carta and even in-- There's an arbitration clause in George Washington's will.
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So none of this is new.
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That's what I'm saying, is sometimes we can be a little...
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We have a recency bias.
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got some visitors Excuse the interrupt I got a dog here too.
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But, I, I...
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My point is, this has been going on as long as there have been people.
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Our self-interests, overlap, and they, they can come into conflict, and we have to figure out how to work it out.
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And every society has figured out how to provide fast and fair resolutions.
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And that's why we in the dispute resolution field, we have to maintain that push, maintain that activism, speak out, train new people, expose people to the values of the field, share what we've learned in terms of our practices with, new practitioners, because that's the only way that we can continue, you know, to ensure that these values are active, vital, and alive in our society.
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Yeah I mean I always tell people Look like problems are a part of life Much like taxes nobody's going to avoid them And I always go back to the history of mediation and to your point like Right.
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how old it is because the power of people being able to resolve conflicts through conversation is as old as language itself probably Exactly.
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basic and useful tool and I think its ability to turn to turn people's cultures and mindset into something that really sinks into the rest of how you operate is just so so important And again problems are a part of life and if you have a better mindset and way to think of and address them not only do you and I both know that you will have a more durable resolution you will have a higher satisfactory of your dispute resolution experience all the things that follow along with that are just so so imperative For sure.
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I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I love the framing of Levelheaded.
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Yeah it's reinventing it for a younger generation.
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It's packaging it in a way it doesn't feel like some dusty training book, you know, from decades ago.
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It's like, no, this is vital.
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This is real.
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This is a part of the life that you experience every day.
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Bring this in to your life.
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And it's a discipline, as you say.
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I think mediation is one of those things.
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it's equal part science and, art, and I think you get out of it what you put into it.
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So i- it's not just expressing, "Okay, hey, we have a mediation program, and it's down here, and you click this button, and you can file a case."
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It's more than that.
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It's a whole value system.
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It's a whole paradigm, and I think that's what we as a field need to reclaim and not feel like, "Well, you know, we did get these things integrated into the establishment, so we're done."
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It's like, no, we have to continue to fight and continue to advance on all fronts.
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I think that's what's really exciting about the younger generations and talked about mediation being taught in schools We're seeing it more at universities here and there's such an appetite for it younger people and even children's ability to engage with meaningful dispute resolution is so compelling and they have that capacity and desire almost more than adults Yeah.
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You know, my first entree, as I said, I ran the campus mediation program, and I wrote a thesis on it.
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but I got involved with this organization, the National Association for Mediation in Education, and it was interesting 'cause I was interested in the higher ed side, but lots of the people who ran NAME, were elementary school teachers, middle school teachers.
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And I think it was in the '70s that the community boards, which is one of the first conflict resolution organizations that worked with kids, came up and created training materials to teach this in schools.
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And they, they had studies, there's actually some really interesting videos about this, where they would train elementary school kids to, you know, in basic peacemaking skills, and then they would hand out every recess, one kid would get the mediator shirt.
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Oh T-shirt, and their job during recess was to go around and, you know, look for conflicts and see if they could play a role.
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And it, the, the videos are so compelling to see students who really took this seriously and wanted to be a force for good and wanted to engage.
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and then there was also Children's Creative Response to Conflict, which was a similar organization that worked with elementary school kids.
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And then when I was at the National Institute for Dispute Resolution, we had something called CRENET Which was the Conflict Resolution and Education Network.
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So even Clara Fowler, who's on my team, I mean, she's got a PhD in this and she edits mediate.com,
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she was first trained as a peer mediator in school.
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Oh.
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out here in California at their public elementary school, they had something called the Peacebuilders Pledge, and every day the kids would stand up, say the Pledge of Allegiance, and then they would recite the Peacebuilders Pledge, which was on every wall.
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So on the one hand, it's exciting that these things happened and that they were built in to our culture, but if it just becomes something that you say and you don't really think about it and you're not doing these trainings and people aren't getting inspired, they don't understand the value to themselves in learning these skills and bringing it into their lives, then we're losing something.
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We're losing a spark that I think made this uniquely effective because it's, important to have that passion to animate your practice.
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And if you just get somebody says, "Hey, do you wanna do this job you don't know anything about? You've not been trained, you've not read anything about it," it can feel a little administrative, and it loses some of the magic.
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So, that's what I love about the work that we do, Mo, is we get to try and reinject some of that magic.
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And I'm inspired by the leaders in the '80s whose shoulders I stood upon when I was building my practice.
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And now I wanna say to people, "Climb on my back," you know? let me show you because I remember how vital this practice can be and we need to inspire the next generation the same way that I was inspired.
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Oh yeah Well I'm right there climbing on your back screaming from the rooftops people are climbing on your backs too, I think that it's so interesting I love I think being a parent almost like invites your capacity to think more critically about disputes and like your love and like simplicity for a child And I think of when I was in elementary school it wasn't for my class but another one of the teachers was getting married and they asked the class to come up with what love was and what marriage was And it was like kindergartners or you know very young Sure.
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their recommendations were so pure and innocent and lovely and true right It was like rub their feet or you know give them a hug or draw them pictures that they like and it seemed so rudimentary but was so true And the book you know was these little scribbling drawings of this class but it kind of blew up as like oh yeah this is this is what love and marriage is about And I think in so many ways like mediation really has that opportunity too for people to realize like you know problems are a part of life and yet you absolutely inherently as a human have the capacity to solve them given just a little bit of empowerment and love what you say because it's really exciting I think when people meet me for a mediation they're almost like blown away that I come in there and I'm like Yes we get to do this And you're in this moment of conflict but like I can't wait to talk about this and I can't wait to help you get through it and see that there is another side that you know surprising to you is actually gonna feel really different And I think sharing in that fervor and that excitement is one of my absolute favorite things about this podcast really but also what I get to share with people is like it it this can be a really good thing And I don't wanna minimize disputes right Sometimes they are very heavy and very difficult For sure.
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but I think so much of what we do in life is about your mindset and how you think you're gonna tackle it And it can be serious right But I think we can inject so much goodness into it if we look at it in a different framework Well, I think one of your greatest superpowers is your enthusiasm and your excitement about the field.
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And, you know, people don't invite us into the negotiation room with them because, you know, we have the experts, we have all the answers.
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Mm-hmm they bring us in because, we can help them get disputes resolved.
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And I don't like the word neutral because it just makes you seem like you're just completely, you don't have any opinions about anything.
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You're totally removed.
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You're unemotional.
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I love that Ken Cloke talks about omnipartiality, right? Where I am an advocate for everybody in this room, and I don't have a bias towards party A or party B.
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I do have a bias towards resolution, and I think there is a, there's an element of faith to that.
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There's an, an element of passion.
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You have to be interested in people to do this work.
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And I love when you talk about, families and young people.
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I think, you know, if you see the world as a hostile place with a lot of people that are coming to take advantage of you and you're just a solo actor, well then the temptation is fight, fight, fight, and push everybody back.
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But once you get into a family, once you get into a community, once you get into a workplace, once you get into, you know, a church or a temple or a mosque, you start to see, well, wait a minute, there are opportunities for us to work together.
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and really, I mean, at least for me, the thing that animates me is love.
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And so I think we need to remember that love is at the heart of so much of what we do, and I think communicating that and creating that environment Makes people want to invite you into the room because mediators hold the calm, mediators hold the possibility of a solution.
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And you have to believe that in order for the parties to believe that.
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so that's what I love about the work that I do.
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It's why I feel this kinship with mediators.
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I love hanging around mediators 'cause we all have this faith that we can find solutions.
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we can work it out.
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That's the way that I feel.
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So that's the energy that you bring into the room, Mo, and that's why you're so good at what you do.
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Yeah.
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Thank you I really think that what you just said too is is really important and it's something that I remember when I first started you know like this concept of neutrality was so difficult right And also because like we hear we're biased and I hear people often talk about you know resolution rates You can't talk about that because then you're not biased and there was something someone else said to me I think it was last week as you know I went to the Harvard Advanced Mediation course Right.
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one of the professors said something so profound about you know a mediator's desire or need to solve the problem And I think what he said and I won't quote anyone here because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong was something along the lines of like of course we want people to get to a resolution and that means that you know we care about it and you you can't be neutral And I think that's what's really interesting about a lot of mediation terms right We put ourselves in the neutral level or you know we can't be too resolution-oriented But at the end of the day what our mission is at the end to have these meaningful dialogues is really that and I love that you brought this up Like we're we're not neutral What did you say Omni Omnipartial.
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It's not my idea, that's Ken Cloke's idea, but I love that idea because it's like I'm not neutral Yeah am biased towards resolution.
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you want me here because I have that bias, Yes I do believe that we can find a zone of agreement.
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We can put together.
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And even if the parties don't believe it, I believe it.
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So, and that's the value that we bring as third parties, as mediators in these negotiations.
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And, you know, again, there's so many styles of mediation, right? Everything from evaluative, kind of table-banging, you know, you think about mediation with a gavel that some ex-judges do, all the way to transformative, which is very relationship-focused, and counseling, and nurturing, and talking about the context outside of the individual dispute.
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I myself am a facilitative mediator, but, I feel like all of those elements are in the work that we do, and everybody needs to find their spot in the field where they feel like they can provide value, and it syncs with their, unique kind of emotional intelligence and their skills.
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So again, I just have gotten so much out of this field, and I don't want to sound like an evangelist, like saying, "Well, everybody's gotta take the medicine and sign up," you know? but I really do feel when I look around, at so much dismay and so many people who are just so depressed about where we are, and I'm like, "Look, I feel like I know a way back," you know? and eventually the pendulum is gonna swing back and hopefully all the things that we care about in the dispute resolution field, will come to the fore.
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Yeah So we've been talking a lot about something that I can't help but wanna ask you You know we've become too built into the establishment and there's something so like I think fundamentally organic and real about mediation that like there's this tension of like you can't be in the establishment because of like the true humanity of it And so my question to you is and this is honestly something I struggle with is I really feel like as a profession we sort of do ourselves a disfavor by not having more I oh I don't like this word it's a big word but like regulation and framework about what we are and how we practice and what we do But by the nature of doing that right we kind of become like pro-establishment so there's tension there me what you think about that Yeah, you know, th- this is something that I've wrestled with over the course of my career.
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You know, I, I, you know, when I first learned about mediation, I'm like, "This is amazing," you know? "I have a hammer and everything is a nail."
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and I wrote my thesis on it, and my advisor at Bryn Mawr, he was an anthropologist.
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And he said, "Okay, I can see you're very enthusiastic about this.
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Why don't you go read some of the critics of dispute resolution?" and I read Loren Nader, who was Ralph Nader's sister.
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She was an anthropologist at Berkeley, and she was critical of dispute resolution in some nuanced ways, and there were some other articles from the, procedural side.
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But one of the things that Loren Nader talked about is dispute resolution, it personalizes disputes, if we have a systemic issue that's generating conflict, it's generating injustice, if you personalize it down to two people...
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Think about, like, if you're on a college campus and there's a dispute between a white student and a Black student in a dorm, and there may be a racial element to that dispute.
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Well, the housing office can start a mediation program and bring in those two students, and they can sit down with a mediator, and they can work it out between the two of them and come up with an agreement that, you know, resolves the issue and maybe reestablishes some of the trust between them.
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But what about the whole environments on their hall that they were in or the dorm that they were in or the campus writ large? That mediation, by taking it into a confidential process and saying, "This is about these two people," you're missing the forest for the trees, because there are broader issues that may create more disputes over time that are being unaddressed.
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So that still resonates with me a little bit, you know? Yes Bernie Mayer, m- my good friend Bernie Mayer I mentioned before, and Jackie Funk Guzman, they came up with this, they wrote a, an amazing book called "The Neutrality Trap."
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And they were talking about, again, as we're not conflict resolvers.
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It's not like every conflict needs to be resolved, and there's not some ideal state where we have no conflict.
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Conflict is an inevitable part of the human condition.
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But, you know, there is a time when it's appropriate to protest.
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It's a t- there's a time when it's appropriate to escalate a dispute because there's a systemic change that needs to happen, and the only way that that systemic change can be triggered is if the contradiction is illuminated, and sometimes protest is a way to do that.
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Now, they also make the point that dispute resolution is intimately tied to protest, because every protest, to be effective, is gonna end in a negotiation at some point to establish the change.
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So this isn't about we all just become angels, and we erase all the need, and we achieve some sort of zen state where, all of our individual needs are washed away, and we just can, neutrally examine every issue and try and figure out how to restore the balance.
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I think you can be passionate.
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You can go in, have a perspective, fight for what you think is right, but also maintain the ability to talk with the other side, walk a mile in the other person's shoes, look at the situation through their eyes.
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It doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.
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It doesn't mean that everything that we're passionate about, we have to throw out in order to achieve peace.
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No, that's not the case.
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We can find our common humanity, our common shared underlying interests, and we can build a connection on the basis of that, and then still, that's fine, live in a world where we disagree about some of the individual positions that we may have.
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So again, if there's any faith that I have as a mediator, is that our common connection to each other outweighs our narrow territorial positions, and we shouldn't focus on these individual difficult issues where we might strongly disagree to the exclusion of that deeper connection we share.
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Yeah I think your point is really great too because I see the tension there but it's also like your ability to see common ground or that common connection with someone on an individual capacity also translate into the importance of it in a greater sense right And how that means when we're operating you know as a society as a culture as we're thinking of even you know smaller communities or a college campus and that is really telling of the impact of that right And sometimes you need to see that for yourself to see the significance of that for the greater purpose Yeah, and there's a lot of...
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I learned my dispute resolution graduate work was with social psychologists, so they spent a lot of time talking about fundamental attribution error and, you know, just cognitive weaknesses that humans have.
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And there's even a basis in neuroscience for why we can get caught in some of these traps that repeat conflict over and over again.
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But that's why I think we as conflict resolvers need to maintain that frame.
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We need to hold the calm.
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Because we can get into an individual dispute, and then we lose sight of perspective, and then we just go further and further down the rabbit hole of escalation.
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And I think mediators and dispute resolution can help pull us out of that, which is a gift.
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I think people say to me, "What a terrible job.
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You're just with fighting people all day."
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It's like, "No, no, I get to help them stop fighting."
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That's the best thing that you can do, you know, the best job you can have.
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anyway, you can tell I'm passionate about this, and I know we share that passion, and I wanna spark that passion in more people because I, I sense there's a hunger for it.
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I agree with everything you're there's I share also a you the enthusiasm for this technology.
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I think it can be some game-changer.
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Some of the platforms that we have seen, like ChatGPT, right There is a better way and there is thinking and process And not that we've touched on it create but I think answers very quickly.
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And I want to ask about speed and accuracy.
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How do you balance those two things? have the ability to to access more people to provide access of mediation to more people but also you know to spread education and awareness about ODR and mediation I wanna ask you just because we're coming to the top of our time here if people are interested in learning more about how they can use technology in mediation what are what are some of the things that you point them to Well, it's, this is the hottest topic.
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95% of my presentations these days Mm-hmm You know, mediate.com
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is a great resource.
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obviously, it's been around for 30 years.
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We have lots and lots of trainings and articles.
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We have webinars.
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We have a series that we're doing now, which is freely, anybody can join at no cost.
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It's called Dive Into AI.
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And, you know, we show the latest AI tools.
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We talk about how they can be used in dispute resolution practice.
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We've got another meeting coming up first week of June.
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So if anybody wants to come to mediate.com.
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But we also have trainings at mediateuniversity.com.
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We have a lot of writings.
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We're doing a conference on AI and mediation, at Harvard University in mid-June at ODR2026.org.
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so, you know, I, I feel like you're right.
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Our objectives as dispute resolvers have not changed, but our toolbox is changing all the time because we have all these powerful tools that are put into it.
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So same goals, new tools, but how do we get people fast and fair resolutions to their disputes? The same question that animated Francis Keller, 100 years ago, that animated Frank Sander here on my wall.
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I always ask myself, WWFSD, what would Frank Sander do? you know, he didn't have access to artificial intelligence, but this is a powerful tool.
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How can we expand the reach of what we do with these tools? So if anybody wants to learn more about this, be part of the conversation as we reinvent the field and we welcome in these fourth parties, these AIs, to our mediation rooms, please come to mediate.com,
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come to odr.info,
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the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution.
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come join the discussion.
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but I think, certainly there's some challenges, there's some risks in these tools, but I think the opportunities outweigh the risk.
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and we're gonna be able to leverage these tools to expand the reach of quality dispute resolution beyond anything our, forefathers and foremothers could have imagined.
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Right.
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I think this is such an exciting topic.
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Yeah and I I just wanna There have been on too I was talking great good leaps in AI in new friend John Land the last- Absolutely yeah on a podcast soon And John Land and I and another gal Renee Jackson are gonna be at the ODR AI Conference in June which you're so wonderfully hosting But I will say one thing that is just so poignant to me is you know technology and AI they're happening right And that gives mediation an opportunity to help grow and I think proliferate build awareness build access to the things that we really believe in And in order to really leverage that we have to embrace it We have to be part of the narrative We have to be using it We have to be figuring out how it can be applied in these areas not only for I think our profession but for the greater sense of right I think what we do is so important Mm-hmm.
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You and I know that so much And if we can insert and inject ourselves into this growth and what is happening then that means we will be a part of it in a more meaningful way and I hope that people really see that as an opportunity and not something to be fearful of Amen.
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Amen, Mo.
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you're, you are singing from my hymnal.
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as they say, from your mouth to God's ears.
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So I think that's great.
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you're doing at Levelheaded and, and, and running this podcast.
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It helps to get the word out.
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So, onward.
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Well thank you so much It has been a pleasure speaking with you today I couldn't be more excited about taking the mediate.com
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podcast and building off of all the wonderful conversations that you've had as Colin and I mentioned watch out or look out for the ODR AI Conference coming up here in June We'd love to see you all there and don't hesitate to reach out to Colin or myself if you have wonderful mediate.com
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ideas or podcast guests that you'd like to share Thank you so much Colin Thank you, Mo.
00:00:00,670.0000166893 --> 00:00:05,629.9996376038
Good afternoon everyone Welcome to Common Ground this is the mediate.com
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podcast where we talk about all things dispute resolution-oriented mostly mediation but arbitration peacemaking negotiation and really the human work of finding our way through conflict I am your new host Mo Tregenza and today is a really big day for the show because I'm joined by the person who's been your host for the past several years and one of the most consequential voices in modern dispute resolution who I lovingly refer to as the godfather of ODR Colin Rule Colin you're passing the baton to me today which is really wonderful and I'm so excited I couldn't be more thrilled to take over from your very big and wonderful shoes so I wanna just give you the floor for a second and then hop into our discussion Colin welcome Mo, thank you so much.
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I am delighted that you're gonna be taking this on, and, we've been discussing some of your plans and all the cool people you're gonna talk to, and I can't wait to listen to your episodes.
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running the mediate.com
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podcast has been just a joy.
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it's such a pleasure to talk to everyone in the field and learn about all the good work that's going on.
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But, you bring...
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And your passion for mediation and your enthusiasm for the practice is gonna bring a whole new layer to it.
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So thank you so much for taking this on, and I'm really delighted to be here with you today.
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thank you so much I really appreciate your kind words and I know how much fun you and I have talking about this topic because when we get on calls that are supposed to be thirty minutes I feel like they could go for hours So really thrilled to chat today when we started this conversation an idea that I threw out to you was you know are we as mediators leveraging our profession in the field in the way that we can and especially going forward And you have this fantastic history with mediation and you're working on some thinking which I've read recently but you said something recently which I think is so profound and I really wanna dive into this So to quote you We've gotten too comfortable being a part of the establishment So I wanna start there Tell me where that comes from Yeah, you know, it's funny, I did send some thoughts to you before this, and they've been sort of percolating in my mind.
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You know, I was first trained in the late '80s, by the American Friends Services Committee, which is the service committee of the Quakers in Philadelphia, and I went to a formerly Quaker school, and they had something called the Friends Suburban Project, where they went around and they trained people, in Philadelphia in conflict resolution.
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And I was lucky enough in the late '80s to get into one of those trainings, and it was such an exciting time in the dispute resolution field.
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I mean, there were so many organizations that were cropping up to promote dispute resolution.
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There was the National Institute for Dispute Resolution.
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There was the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution.
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I could go on and on.
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And there were maybe a dozen conferences a year Focused on promoting conflict resolution, promoting dispute resolution.
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and, there'd be thousands of people that went to these conferences.
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So me as a young person who first learned about mediation and got passionate about it, and then I became the head of the campus mediation program at my college at Haverford, or the co-chair, and then I wrote my thesis on it, and then I got a job at Nider.
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So I was, just swept into this movement, and, it just felt like we were coming together.
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People were saying, "There's a better way to do this."
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And I had wanted to be a peacemaker when I was in high school, but I didn't really...
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what does that even mean to be a peacemaker? But then I got trained in mediation.
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I'm like, "Aha, this is the science of peacemaking.
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I am going to do this, what I want to do with my life."
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So to look back on those days and see how the culture was changing, how organizations were growing, how young people were being swept up.
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We even were doing peer mediation trainings, in elementary schools and middle schools and getting people at an early age.
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that was such a wonderful, heady time in the field, and I contrast it with kind of where we are now.
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And I find that a lot of the young people that I meet who are passionate about dispute resolution, you know, they're also dispirited by the current environment that we're in.
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It seems like a lot of the values of dispute resolution, you know, empathy and collaboration, expanding the pie, looking for win-win opportunities, a lot of that stuff is just being overwhelmed with this message, this broader message of bare knuckles negotiation, zero sum, you know, aggregate power and force the other side to do what you want them to do.
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I really feel that we need to bring back some of that sense of mission, that sense of the movement that I felt in the '80s, because the reality is we need dispute resolution more than ever, and people are hungry for it.
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I can just see that people feel in their soul they want to be able to talk to people that they disagree with and find a way to coexist and find a way to collaborate and work together.
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So that's kind of what I...
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You know, when you said to me too, we've become a little bit too complacent, I think that's true.
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I think, you know, back in the '80s and even in the '90s, there were this community mediation movement.
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People were volunteering.
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You know, students in colleges were petitioning the dean's office to start mediation programs, and now we have those.
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We did change the culture.
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And now there is mandatory mediation in family courts.
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There is, roommate mediation, but it's been absorbed into the housing office, or it's been absorbed into the courts, and now it's just another administrative step.
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And I think the novelty and the innovation and the values that undergird the work that we do has been lost a little bit because now we're just part of the way things work.
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And yeah, there are other innovations too that, I think about like the first time I zipped through a toll booth with an EZ Pass or, the first time I did my taxes online.
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The first time it was like, "Wow, this is cool.
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This is amazing.
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We should promote this."
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And now it's just normal.
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It's just the way things are.
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And the younger generation, it's just always been around, so it's not something they get particularly excited about.
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So this is-- I wanna inject some of that mission aspect Mm-hmm when I first joined the field, I think is a little bit of an antidote to this kind of complacency or the malaise that I kinda feel has settled over the field in the face of the current environment we're in.
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So I'm sorry if I'm ranting, but I just feel passionately about this.
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So yeah, tell me, what are your thoughts? No I love your rant and this is why I think it's so interesting especially as you know I'm like building a company and I agree with you in the way of like I think of mediation as almost like it like being like yoga and so when I was growing up my mom's friends down at the library did yoga for free and I knew like it was important and valuable but for some reason like it wasn't prolific like we know it today And there's a part of me that's like, Someone needs to like make yoga or mediation you know sexy or Hollywood like you know yoga was and now it's like everybody's willing to wear you know buy expensive you know yoga pants and yoga is a part of every exercise So I really agree with you in this sentiment of we've gotta make it exciting because it is and I totally agree When we talk about some of the language around mediation even within our team and our exploring like what do we call ourselves Is neutral a good word Empathy Right.
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Like being empathetic has turned into a bad thing and wanting That's right.
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And on the other side I couldn't agree more that one of my biggest fears is if mediation and dispute resolution proliferates in a way that we want it to does it become rote Does it become a part of the process, and then people don't take it seriously and that's what worries me So I love this thinking and I couldn't agree more Like moment of magic in mediation and having a meaningful discussion and conversation when you feel it when you see your parties feel it there's nothing like it right And it Absolutely.
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where you go from there I love the yoga metaphor, because I think I see people walking around in their Lululemon yoga pants all the time, and I think, "Are these people really doing yoga?" I mean, yoga is similar to mediation.
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It's existed since time immemorial, and when I go to India, you know, they yoga is a discipline, it's a lifestyle, it's connected to diet, it's connected...
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But it's a long-term practice.
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It's something that you put a lot of yourself into, and you get better, and better, and better over time, and I think that is similar to mediation.
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those of us who've really done it and who are passionate about it, we know the value that can come out of it.
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But if it just becomes, you know, stretching, and, you do it for five minutes, every other week when your back starts to get tight, are you really doing yoga, you know? Are you really embracing the full range? And I think the same is true with mediation.
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I actually have worked in some programs, some courts where, they absorbed an external mediation program, and they brought it inside the courts, and now it's staffed with court employees.
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And, you're working with divorcing couples, and it's kind of a little bit like the DMV, the couples come in, and they sit down with a court employee who has a clipboard, and they just go through, and they check boxes.
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And then they say, "Okay, well, that's your mediation.
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Now you can go in front of the judge."
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And I look at that and say, "Is that really mediation?" I mean, it's, it's, that's not really...
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When we first made th-these tools, a lot of it was animated by the practice, the discipline of active listening, and reflective practice and, confidentiality and all of these things that were core to the concept of what we were putting in place.
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Now I feel like it's just becoming a checkbox, Yeah.
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And, it, it, when you take the heart out of it, I'm not sure it works as well.
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So that's why I'm saying I, I was so inspired by these practitioners that saw this as a movement when I first joined the field, and I love what you guys are doing at Levelheaded because I think you are reinventing mediation for the younger generation.
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You're resuscitating it.
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This isn't just something that, in the '80s, people did, and now you can sort of follow this checklist, and you can do it.
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It's like, no, this is a whole...
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It's, as you say, it's like yoga.
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It's a discipline.
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What you get out of it is what you put into it, and we should inspire people with the values that undergird this work, as opposed to just say, "Okay, well, here's a checklist.
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Go do this," and, then you've started your mediation program.
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Yeah No I I totally I love the idea of the cultural shift and I know this is bold but I I really do have a mission to disrupt the legal system because not not in a nefarious or like evil way My grandfather was a judge and I have a lot of respect for what the legal system means but because I truly know that there is a better way And I think when people experience that like you said it becomes something that you want to be disciplined about It's funny because I just did I worked with the first mediation practicum at CU Boulder So their law school did a class and they worked with Levelheaded in a court that we're working with here and then they worked with another court and I had no idea that they were working together but you're right They that the other court had brought in mediation into the courthouse They now have court administrators watching over the mediation and it is a really stark difference of what is the mediation results in that courtroom where it's been absorbed and really Right and qui a totally different process versus what we do and I think really honoring mediation Absolutely.
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more about a discipline and realizing how much the thought and the concept of mediation is more than just the practice right It is like it's almost like a cultural shift that needs to happen And when you talk about, your grandfather who was a judge, you might know this, I'm a descendant of Oliver Wendell Holmes, actually, the Supreme Court justice.
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I'm not a lawyer.
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My background's in public policy and dispute resolution, but I've read a lot of Holmes because of the connection.
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And, he talks a lot about the beauty of the law.
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This is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, that we built this system and we have this evolving series of rules and guidelines that can help us build peace within society.
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I think that we as mediators deeply respect that, and we often talk about how mediation lives in the shadow of the law.
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But there's also, I...
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There was a book called The Bramble Bush, which was intended for, you know, first-year law students back in the 1920s.
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And, the author, Llewellyn, he says, "What is the law really about? Fundamentally, the law is about preventing and resolving disputes."
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That's why the law exists.
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It's a very complicated dispute resolution process, but it's only one of many processes.
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And, you know, many of us have the Abraham Lincoln quote on our walls, you know, as mediators, "Discourage litigation," you know.
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help your neighbors understand that they can work these things out.
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I think, you know, I was-- When I came into the field, it was part of this big upswing of dispute resolution, and I just got caught up in it, and I was so proud of all the changes that were happening in society, and that's what makes me sad to see that, you know, hey, I feel like the values that undergird dispute resolution are kind of falling out of favor.
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And when I, when I get, you know, anxious about current events, I often look to history because it contextualizes our experience.
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And then I realized, you know, this has been a struggle since time immemorial to fight for these values of peacemaking and empathy and connection and dialogue.
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And we're celebrating at the American Arbitration Association, we're celebrating our 100th anniversary.
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And the founder of AAA, Francis Keller, when she first put together the organization, she was part of this movement too.
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You can read her writings, and it sounds just like the writings from the 1980s.
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And it was this idea of, we can work this out.
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We can collaborate with each other.
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We can resolve problems in a smarter way that doesn't require the scorched earth techniques.
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And it wasn't just her.
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It was Mary Parker Follett.
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It was Jane Addams.
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There was a whole movement in the '20s and '30s to do this, and, I realize it stretches even before them.
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So this is a constant fight.
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There is always the temptation to slide into, prejudice and, judgment and otherism and in-group versus out-group.
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嗯 This is just part of human psychology, and it has been around time immemorial.
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But that's why it's so important that we keep fighting this fight.
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And even in a time where it doesn't feel like our values are in ascendance, maybe they're a little bit in retreat, we have to preserve this flame of the work that we do because there's gonna come a time when the pendulum swings back the other way, and we have to use that flame and go and light all the lanterns again and remind people how coexistence can operate and how we can resolve disputes in a peaceful way that builds relationships, builds trust, builds empathy and connection, as opposed to the division that I think we see all around us these days.
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Yeah I absolutely agree and I also think maybe we're at the cusp of sort of a seismic shift again much like when you were developing your love for mediation There were political and outside things happening that really bore into that sort of cultural mindset and shift and I almost feel like we're getting there right And this need to say Hey you know we are all humans and we can sit down at the same table is becoming more put in the spotlight And I This just made me think of a few years ago there was this really compelling I think it was on Colorado CPR Colorado Public Radio it may have been national But they went around the country and identified different individuals who had really opposite viewpoints of controversial issues So abortion diversity in school Gun issues and they brought people with very different ends of the spectrum to the same table and we were involved with it because mediation right So they did this tour and brought people to the same room and had these open dialogues and it was absolutely magical what came out of it Absolutely.
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they could share their differences of opinion but they realized their humanity in one another and what they came out of it from that was a totally different sense of how they saw the world And I think that right now we're so in need of that mindset shift and that's where the practice of mediation and dispute resolution really demonstrates that Well, I think that there are conflict resolvers, and I think that there are conflict exacerbators.
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And, you know, Bernie Mayer has written very persuasively about this in his many books about how we are conflict specialists.
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We're not just about resolve everything, resolve everything.
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Sometimes there are times when you do have to escalate a conflict in order to make progress.
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And, you know, again, I am not averse to fighting, you know? Like getting out in the streets and making your...
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As long as you follow the rules, you know? Like, look, we have an obligation to speak up for what we believe.
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But yes, dialogue is possible even in these most divisive of civil issues.
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I grew up in Texas, and I now live in California, and many of my friends from the two places, they see the world in very different ways.
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But I love them equally, and I think this idea that we can coexist, our self-interest, our worldviews may contradict, but we can disagree without being disagreeable.
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I think, right now there's just a sense that that's, "Oh, that's weakness," you know? That's, you just don't really care enough about your beliefs that you're not willing to go out and fight the other side about them.
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And I don't think that's what this is at all.
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I think we all hunger for our ability to coexist even when we disagree, and it's not that we have to take these issues that are most polarizing and push them to the front of the conversation and use it to delegitimi- de- de- delegitimize the viewpoints of the other side.
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I sense that hunger and I'm mainly talking about the United States.
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having traveled to other countries, many other countries are in a very different head space than the US, and I think they look at what's going on in the United States with dismay, saying, "Wow, how did this happen?" But I do think that, especially with all of the disruption being introduced by technological change, I think it's been an opportunity for the conflict exacerbators to get an upper hand, and now it's time for the conflict resolvers to push back because that's really the way that this works, is we learn how to live together and even disagree, but, learn to coexist and understand what we share in common exceeds the things that we disagree about.
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our common humanity is so beautiful and I want to touch on this because I think it's so important and something good for our listeners I have also just repeatedly been sort of asked like Why the United States And when I go abroad to different conferences it is just almost the difference of the appetite for mediation and dispute resolution and how people embrace it in other cultures almost makes the US look like we're in the Dark Ages and I think the current political narrative it really exacerbates that And I think you know this that's why this moment for sort of this seismic shift is so so important Right Absolutely.
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Most of those people don't have lawyers and it really affects people and we really don't have a good way to to deal with that What what are your thoughts on that and how dispute resolution comes in I mean, the irony is dispute resolution is more needed now than ever.
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I think back to my heroes from the '80s, they didn't have all the tools that we have at our disposal.
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They didn't have AI, they didn't have mobile phones, they didn't have Zoom.
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the constraints of geography were way more of a burden on their ability to try and expand access to dispute resolution services than we're freed now that we have these tools in our toolbox.
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So the goals that they had of ex- of fast and fair resolutions for all, they did the best they could in their era, but now we can utilize these tools, and that's why I'm excited about online dispute resolution as well, because, my friend Richard Susskind, who's the chief IT advisor to the Lord Chief Justice in the UK, he's written in many of his books about 50% of people on Earth don't have meaningful access to a justice system, to...
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And he calls, they're kind of like the unjusticed, right? Mm-hmm Peace Corps in rural Africa, in Eritrea, and I saw that.
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There was not a meaningful redress system, a justice system was available to most of my neighbors in Dekemhare in Eritrea.
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But how can we solve that problem? You know, I think the tools that we had before, it just was prohibitively complicated to try and figure out how do we expand- meaningful redress around the world.
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Well, if dispute resolution is a service, it's not a place, and we can deliver it through technology, well, then suddenly we have a way to reach that other 50% of people on the planet that don't have a way to get a fair resolution to a problem when they encounter it.
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And I think y- you know, the irony of our moment is that while the values of dispute resolution seem to be kind of under pressure, the need for dispute resolution is greater than ever before.
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And when you talk about the crisis of self-represented pro se litigants, you know, 80% of civil cases in the United States have one party that's unrepresented.
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You know, we need to think outside the box.
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We need to think in creative ways, and that was the reason why we called the field ADR initially, 'cause it was an alternative.
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It was an alternative to what? It was an alternative to the courts.
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and the other thing is, you know, dispute resolution has been around s- as long as humanity has been around.
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I've got, images on my computer of disputes from ancient Mesopotamia, where people are arguing about, you know, the quality of the copper ingots, that were sold from one merchant to another.
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and, you know, there's arbitration awards in ancient Rome and in England at the time of the Magna Carta and even in-- There's an arbitration clause in George Washington's will.
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So none of this is new.
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That's what I'm saying, is sometimes we can be a little...
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We have a recency bias.
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got some visitors Excuse the interrupt I got a dog here too.
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But, I, I...
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My point is, this has been going on as long as there have been people.
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Our self-interests, overlap, and they, they can come into conflict, and we have to figure out how to work it out.
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And every society has figured out how to provide fast and fair resolutions.
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And that's why we in the dispute resolution field, we have to maintain that push, maintain that activism, speak out, train new people, expose people to the values of the field, share what we've learned in terms of our practices with, new practitioners, because that's the only way that we can continue, you know, to ensure that these values are active, vital, and alive in our society.
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Yeah I mean I always tell people Look like problems are a part of life Much like taxes nobody's going to avoid them And I always go back to the history of mediation and to your point like Right.
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how old it is because the power of people being able to resolve conflicts through conversation is as old as language itself probably Exactly.
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basic and useful tool and I think its ability to turn to turn people's cultures and mindset into something that really sinks into the rest of how you operate is just so so important And again problems are a part of life and if you have a better mindset and way to think of and address them not only do you and I both know that you will have a more durable resolution you will have a higher satisfactory of your dispute resolution experience all the things that follow along with that are just so so imperative For sure.
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I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I love the framing of Levelheaded.
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Yeah it's reinventing it for a younger generation.
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It's packaging it in a way it doesn't feel like some dusty training book, you know, from decades ago.
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It's like, no, this is vital.
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This is real.
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This is a part of the life that you experience every day.
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Bring this in to your life.
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And it's a discipline, as you say.
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I think mediation is one of those things.
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it's equal part science and, art, and I think you get out of it what you put into it.
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So i- it's not just expressing, "Okay, hey, we have a mediation program, and it's down here, and you click this button, and you can file a case."
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It's more than that.
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It's a whole value system.
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It's a whole paradigm, and I think that's what we as a field need to reclaim and not feel like, "Well, you know, we did get these things integrated into the establishment, so we're done."
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It's like, no, we have to continue to fight and continue to advance on all fronts.
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I think that's what's really exciting about the younger generations and talked about mediation being taught in schools We're seeing it more at universities here and there's such an appetite for it younger people and even children's ability to engage with meaningful dispute resolution is so compelling and they have that capacity and desire almost more than adults Yeah.
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You know, my first entree, as I said, I ran the campus mediation program, and I wrote a thesis on it.
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but I got involved with this organization, the National Association for Mediation in Education, and it was interesting 'cause I was interested in the higher ed side, but lots of the people who ran NAME, were elementary school teachers, middle school teachers.
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And I think it was in the '70s that the community boards, which is one of the first conflict resolution organizations that worked with kids, came up and created training materials to teach this in schools.
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And they, they had studies, there's actually some really interesting videos about this, where they would train elementary school kids to, you know, in basic peacemaking skills, and then they would hand out every recess, one kid would get the mediator shirt.
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Oh T-shirt, and their job during recess was to go around and, you know, look for conflicts and see if they could play a role.
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And it, the, the videos are so compelling to see students who really took this seriously and wanted to be a force for good and wanted to engage.
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and then there was also Children's Creative Response to Conflict, which was a similar organization that worked with elementary school kids.
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And then when I was at the National Institute for Dispute Resolution, we had something called CRENET Which was the Conflict Resolution and Education Network.
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So even Clara Fowler, who's on my team, I mean, she's got a PhD in this and she edits mediate.com,
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she was first trained as a peer mediator in school.
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Oh.
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out here in California at their public elementary school, they had something called the Peacebuilders Pledge, and every day the kids would stand up, say the Pledge of Allegiance, and then they would recite the Peacebuilders Pledge, which was on every wall.
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So on the one hand, it's exciting that these things happened and that they were built in to our culture, but if it just becomes something that you say and you don't really think about it and you're not doing these trainings and people aren't getting inspired, they don't understand the value to themselves in learning these skills and bringing it into their lives, then we're losing something.
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We're losing a spark that I think made this uniquely effective because it's, important to have that passion to animate your practice.
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And if you just get somebody says, "Hey, do you wanna do this job you don't know anything about? You've not been trained, you've not read anything about it," it can feel a little administrative, and it loses some of the magic.
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So, that's what I love about the work that we do, Mo, is we get to try and reinject some of that magic.
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And I'm inspired by the leaders in the '80s whose shoulders I stood upon when I was building my practice.
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And now I wanna say to people, "Climb on my back," you know? let me show you because I remember how vital this practice can be and we need to inspire the next generation the same way that I was inspired.
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Oh yeah Well I'm right there climbing on your back screaming from the rooftops people are climbing on your backs too, I think that it's so interesting I love I think being a parent almost like invites your capacity to think more critically about disputes and like your love and like simplicity for a child And I think of when I was in elementary school it wasn't for my class but another one of the teachers was getting married and they asked the class to come up with what love was and what marriage was And it was like kindergartners or you know very young Sure.
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their recommendations were so pure and innocent and lovely and true right It was like rub their feet or you know give them a hug or draw them pictures that they like and it seemed so rudimentary but was so true And the book you know was these little scribbling drawings of this class but it kind of blew up as like oh yeah this is this is what love and marriage is about And I think in so many ways like mediation really has that opportunity too for people to realize like you know problems are a part of life and yet you absolutely inherently as a human have the capacity to solve them given just a little bit of empowerment and love what you say because it's really exciting I think when people meet me for a mediation they're almost like blown away that I come in there and I'm like Yes we get to do this And you're in this moment of conflict but like I can't wait to talk about this and I can't wait to help you get through it and see that there is another side that you know surprising to you is actually gonna feel really different And I think sharing in that fervor and that excitement is one of my absolute favorite things about this podcast really but also what I get to share with people is like it it this can be a really good thing And I don't wanna minimize disputes right Sometimes they are very heavy and very difficult For sure.
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but I think so much of what we do in life is about your mindset and how you think you're gonna tackle it And it can be serious right But I think we can inject so much goodness into it if we look at it in a different framework Well, I think one of your greatest superpowers is your enthusiasm and your excitement about the field.
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And, you know, people don't invite us into the negotiation room with them because, you know, we have the experts, we have all the answers.
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Mm-hmm they bring us in because, we can help them get disputes resolved.
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And I don't like the word neutral because it just makes you seem like you're just completely, you don't have any opinions about anything.
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You're totally removed.
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You're unemotional.
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I love that Ken Cloke talks about omnipartiality, right? Where I am an advocate for everybody in this room, and I don't have a bias towards party A or party B.
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I do have a bias towards resolution, and I think there is a, there's an element of faith to that.
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There's an, an element of passion.
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You have to be interested in people to do this work.
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And I love when you talk about, families and young people.
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I think, you know, if you see the world as a hostile place with a lot of people that are coming to take advantage of you and you're just a solo actor, well then the temptation is fight, fight, fight, and push everybody back.
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But once you get into a family, once you get into a community, once you get into a workplace, once you get into, you know, a church or a temple or a mosque, you start to see, well, wait a minute, there are opportunities for us to work together.
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and really, I mean, at least for me, the thing that animates me is love.
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And so I think we need to remember that love is at the heart of so much of what we do, and I think communicating that and creating that environment Makes people want to invite you into the room because mediators hold the calm, mediators hold the possibility of a solution.
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And you have to believe that in order for the parties to believe that.
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so that's what I love about the work that I do.
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It's why I feel this kinship with mediators.
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I love hanging around mediators 'cause we all have this faith that we can find solutions.
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we can work it out.
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That's the way that I feel.
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So that's the energy that you bring into the room, Mo, and that's why you're so good at what you do.
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Yeah.
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Thank you I really think that what you just said too is is really important and it's something that I remember when I first started you know like this concept of neutrality was so difficult right And also because like we hear we're biased and I hear people often talk about you know resolution rates You can't talk about that because then you're not biased and there was something someone else said to me I think it was last week as you know I went to the Harvard Advanced Mediation course Right.
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one of the professors said something so profound about you know a mediator's desire or need to solve the problem And I think what he said and I won't quote anyone here because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong was something along the lines of like of course we want people to get to a resolution and that means that you know we care about it and you you can't be neutral And I think that's what's really interesting about a lot of mediation terms right We put ourselves in the neutral level or you know we can't be too resolution-oriented But at the end of the day what our mission is at the end to have these meaningful dialogues is really that and I love that you brought this up Like we're we're not neutral What did you say Omni Omnipartial.
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It's not my idea, that's Ken Cloke's idea, but I love that idea because it's like I'm not neutral Yeah am biased towards resolution.
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you want me here because I have that bias, Yes I do believe that we can find a zone of agreement.
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We can put together.
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And even if the parties don't believe it, I believe it.
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So, and that's the value that we bring as third parties, as mediators in these negotiations.
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And, you know, again, there's so many styles of mediation, right? Everything from evaluative, kind of table-banging, you know, you think about mediation with a gavel that some ex-judges do, all the way to transformative, which is very relationship-focused, and counseling, and nurturing, and talking about the context outside of the individual dispute.
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I myself am a facilitative mediator, but, I feel like all of those elements are in the work that we do, and everybody needs to find their spot in the field where they feel like they can provide value, and it syncs with their, unique kind of emotional intelligence and their skills.
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So again, I just have gotten so much out of this field, and I don't want to sound like an evangelist, like saying, "Well, everybody's gotta take the medicine and sign up," you know? but I really do feel when I look around, at so much dismay and so many people who are just so depressed about where we are, and I'm like, "Look, I feel like I know a way back," you know? and eventually the pendulum is gonna swing back and hopefully all the things that we care about in the dispute resolution field, will come to the fore.
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Yeah So we've been talking a lot about something that I can't help but wanna ask you You know we've become too built into the establishment and there's something so like I think fundamentally organic and real about mediation that like there's this tension of like you can't be in the establishment because of like the true humanity of it And so my question to you is and this is honestly something I struggle with is I really feel like as a profession we sort of do ourselves a disfavor by not having more I oh I don't like this word it's a big word but like regulation and framework about what we are and how we practice and what we do But by the nature of doing that right we kind of become like pro-establishment so there's tension there me what you think about that Yeah, you know, th- this is something that I've wrestled with over the course of my career.
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You know, I, I, you know, when I first learned about mediation, I'm like, "This is amazing," you know? "I have a hammer and everything is a nail."
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and I wrote my thesis on it, and my advisor at Bryn Mawr, he was an anthropologist.
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And he said, "Okay, I can see you're very enthusiastic about this.
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Why don't you go read some of the critics of dispute resolution?" and I read Loren Nader, who was Ralph Nader's sister.
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She was an anthropologist at Berkeley, and she was critical of dispute resolution in some nuanced ways, and there were some other articles from the, procedural side.
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But one of the things that Loren Nader talked about is dispute resolution, it personalizes disputes, if we have a systemic issue that's generating conflict, it's generating injustice, if you personalize it down to two people...
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Think about, like, if you're on a college campus and there's a dispute between a white student and a Black student in a dorm, and there may be a racial element to that dispute.
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Well, the housing office can start a mediation program and bring in those two students, and they can sit down with a mediator, and they can work it out between the two of them and come up with an agreement that, you know, resolves the issue and maybe reestablishes some of the trust between them.
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But what about the whole environments on their hall that they were in or the dorm that they were in or the campus writ large? That mediation, by taking it into a confidential process and saying, "This is about these two people," you're missing the forest for the trees, because there are broader issues that may create more disputes over time that are being unaddressed.
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So that still resonates with me a little bit, you know? Yes Bernie Mayer, m- my good friend Bernie Mayer I mentioned before, and Jackie Funk Guzman, they came up with this, they wrote a, an amazing book called "The Neutrality Trap."
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And they were talking about, again, as we're not conflict resolvers.
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It's not like every conflict needs to be resolved, and there's not some ideal state where we have no conflict.
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Conflict is an inevitable part of the human condition.
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But, you know, there is a time when it's appropriate to protest.
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It's a t- there's a time when it's appropriate to escalate a dispute because there's a systemic change that needs to happen, and the only way that that systemic change can be triggered is if the contradiction is illuminated, and sometimes protest is a way to do that.
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Now, they also make the point that dispute resolution is intimately tied to protest, because every protest, to be effective, is gonna end in a negotiation at some point to establish the change.
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So this isn't about we all just become angels, and we erase all the need, and we achieve some sort of zen state where, all of our individual needs are washed away, and we just can, neutrally examine every issue and try and figure out how to restore the balance.
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I think you can be passionate.
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You can go in, have a perspective, fight for what you think is right, but also maintain the ability to talk with the other side, walk a mile in the other person's shoes, look at the situation through their eyes.
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It doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.
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It doesn't mean that everything that we're passionate about, we have to throw out in order to achieve peace.
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No, that's not the case.
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We can find our common humanity, our common shared underlying interests, and we can build a connection on the basis of that, and then still, that's fine, live in a world where we disagree about some of the individual positions that we may have.
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So again, if there's any faith that I have as a mediator, is that our common connection to each other outweighs our narrow territorial positions, and we shouldn't focus on these individual difficult issues where we might strongly disagree to the exclusion of that deeper connection we share.
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Yeah I think your point is really great too because I see the tension there but it's also like your ability to see common ground or that common connection with someone on an individual capacity also translate into the importance of it in a greater sense right And how that means when we're operating you know as a society as a culture as we're thinking of even you know smaller communities or a college campus and that is really telling of the impact of that right And sometimes you need to see that for yourself to see the significance of that for the greater purpose Yeah, and there's a lot of...
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I learned my dispute resolution graduate work was with social psychologists, so they spent a lot of time talking about fundamental attribution error and, you know, just cognitive weaknesses that humans have.
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And there's even a basis in neuroscience for why we can get caught in some of these traps that repeat conflict over and over again.
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But that's why I think we as conflict resolvers need to maintain that frame.
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We need to hold the calm.
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Because we can get into an individual dispute, and then we lose sight of perspective, and then we just go further and further down the rabbit hole of escalation.
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And I think mediators and dispute resolution can help pull us out of that, which is a gift.
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I think people say to me, "What a terrible job.
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You're just with fighting people all day."
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It's like, "No, no, I get to help them stop fighting."
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That's the best thing that you can do, you know, the best job you can have.
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anyway, you can tell I'm passionate about this, and I know we share that passion, and I wanna spark that passion in more people because I, I sense there's a hunger for it.
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I agree with everything you're there's I share also a you the enthusiasm for this technology.
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I think it can be some game-changer.
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Some of the platforms that we have seen, like ChatGPT, right There is a better way and there is thinking and process And not that we've touched on it create but I think answers very quickly.
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And I want to ask about speed and accuracy.
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How do you balance those two things? have the ability to to access more people to provide access of mediation to more people but also you know to spread education and awareness about ODR and mediation I wanna ask you just because we're coming to the top of our time here if people are interested in learning more about how they can use technology in mediation what are what are some of the things that you point them to Well, it's, this is the hottest topic.
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95% of my presentations these days Mm-hmm You know, mediate.com
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is a great resource.
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obviously, it's been around for 30 years.
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We have lots and lots of trainings and articles.
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We have webinars.
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We have a series that we're doing now, which is freely, anybody can join at no cost.
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It's called Dive Into AI.
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And, you know, we show the latest AI tools.
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We talk about how they can be used in dispute resolution practice.
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We've got another meeting coming up first week of June.
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So if anybody wants to come to mediate.com.
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But we also have trainings at mediateuniversity.com.
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We have a lot of writings.
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We're doing a conference on AI and mediation, at Harvard University in mid-June at ODR2026.org.
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so, you know, I, I feel like you're right.
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Our objectives as dispute resolvers have not changed, but our toolbox is changing all the time because we have all these powerful tools that are put into it.
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So same goals, new tools, but how do we get people fast and fair resolutions to their disputes? The same question that animated Francis Keller, 100 years ago, that animated Frank Sander here on my wall.
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I always ask myself, WWFSD, what would Frank Sander do? you know, he didn't have access to artificial intelligence, but this is a powerful tool.
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How can we expand the reach of what we do with these tools? So if anybody wants to learn more about this, be part of the conversation as we reinvent the field and we welcome in these fourth parties, these AIs, to our mediation rooms, please come to mediate.com,
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come to odr.info,
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the National Center for Technology and Dispute Resolution.
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come join the discussion.
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but I think, certainly there's some challenges, there's some risks in these tools, but I think the opportunities outweigh the risk.
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and we're gonna be able to leverage these tools to expand the reach of quality dispute resolution beyond anything our, forefathers and foremothers could have imagined.
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Right.
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I think this is such an exciting topic.
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Yeah and I I just wanna There have been on too I was talking great good leaps in AI in new friend John Land the last- Absolutely yeah on a podcast soon And John Land and I and another gal Renee Jackson are gonna be at the ODR AI Conference in June which you're so wonderfully hosting But I will say one thing that is just so poignant to me is you know technology and AI they're happening right And that gives mediation an opportunity to help grow and I think proliferate build awareness build access to the things that we really believe in And in order to really leverage that we have to embrace it We have to be part of the narrative We have to be using it We have to be figuring out how it can be applied in these areas not only for I think our profession but for the greater sense of right I think what we do is so important Mm-hmm.
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You and I know that so much And if we can insert and inject ourselves into this growth and what is happening then that means we will be a part of it in a more meaningful way and I hope that people really see that as an opportunity and not something to be fearful of Amen.
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Amen, Mo.
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you're, you are singing from my hymnal.
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as they say, from your mouth to God's ears.
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So I think that's great.
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you're doing at Levelheaded and, and, and running this podcast.
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It helps to get the word out.
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So, onward.
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Well thank you so much It has been a pleasure speaking with you today I couldn't be more excited about taking the mediate.com
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podcast and building off of all the wonderful conversations that you've had as Colin and I mentioned watch out or look out for the ODR AI Conference coming up here in June We'd love to see you all there and don't hesitate to reach out to Colin or myself if you have wonderful mediate.com
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ideas or podcast guests that you'd like to share Thank you so much Colin Thank you, Mo.
