WEBVTT
00:01:45.487 --> 00:01:46.087
Hello an Anthony.
00:01:46.093 --> 00:01:47.138
Welcome to Comic Boom.
00:01:47.206 --> 00:01:47.932
Hello Lucy.
00:01:48.251 --> 00:01:49.302
I'm really pleased to be here.
00:01:49.322 --> 00:01:50.706
thanks so much for coming today.
00:01:50.753 --> 00:01:55.433
We've got lots to talk about and some really interesting and different perspectives that you're gonna be able to bring to the podcast.
00:01:55.459 --> 00:01:58.947
but can you tell us, about your journey as a comics fan?
00:01:58.947 --> 00:02:00.456
Do you read comics for Pleasure?
00:02:00.456 --> 00:02:05.677
Have you in the past read comics for Pleasure before it was kind of part of your day-to-day work, and where did that all start?
00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:07.868
yes is the short answer.
00:02:07.868 --> 00:02:08.318
Yes.
00:02:08.318 --> 00:02:08.889
A lot.
00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:10.438
Um, and I think.
00:02:11.253 --> 00:02:21.985
it started, I dunno if there's any parents listening to this, but I would absolutely recommend that if you have books that you really loved yourself, put them in your child's room as they're growing up.
00:02:22.045 --> 00:02:31.346
Because my dad had all of the kind of old peanuts, the Charlie Brown and Snoopy sort of collections from the sixties and seventies, which were brilliant.
00:02:31.376 --> 00:02:33.716
And as I was growing up, they were literally just on the.
00:02:34.431 --> 00:02:35.151
In my room.
00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:39.170
And so I'd pick them up, read them obsessively over and over again.
00:02:39.230 --> 00:02:47.061
Charles Schultz is just a genius at, at both cartooning, but just at really getting to the core of what it, what it means to be human.
00:02:47.061 --> 00:02:49.854
And I think, peanuts was absolutely where it started.
00:02:50.254 --> 00:02:53.789
Then as I got a bit older, I got into, the Beano a bit.
00:02:54.919 --> 00:03:04.965
And I really got into when I was about sort of nine, this, anthology comic called Sonic the Comic, which was entirely based around, Sonic the Hedgehog from the Mega Drive games.
00:03:04.974 --> 00:03:12.775
it was a British comic and it was being made by these wonderful creators, many of whom went on to things at Marvel and things like that as well.
00:03:12.875 --> 00:03:13.955
But there wasn't really that.
00:03:14.735 --> 00:03:18.125
Like that in the sort of early, mid nineties.
00:03:18.215 --> 00:03:24.004
And, it was just the most exciting thing because you had all of these different types of stories.
00:03:24.004 --> 00:03:32.735
You have lots of different stories based on lots of different games, but you had brilliant creators doing really sort of, you know, quite challenging storytelling with it as well.
00:03:32.814 --> 00:03:34.965
And I know talking to some of the people who.
00:03:35.127 --> 00:03:36.717
Draw for the Phoenix comic.
00:03:36.817 --> 00:03:38.766
It was quite a big influence on them as well.
00:03:38.766 --> 00:03:41.947
So it, it obviously hit at the right moment when there wasn't much around.
00:03:42.326 --> 00:03:44.247
But it was just super exciting.
00:03:44.347 --> 00:03:53.206
And then a lot of, Batman annuals actually, sort of older, kind of 1970s, 1960s Batman stories, which felt a bit more in.
00:03:54.347 --> 00:03:58.727
Sort of along with the Adam West sort of TV show, that kind of slightly sillier Batman.
00:03:59.146 --> 00:04:04.606
And then I, I got into manga as a young teen and sort of read, read all sorts of manga.
00:04:04.606 --> 00:04:07.546
I mean, you know, manga is, manga is not a genre.
00:04:07.551 --> 00:04:08.146
It's everything.
00:04:08.146 --> 00:04:08.956
It's every genre.
00:04:09.067 --> 00:04:12.217
So I would just devour loads and loads of manga books.
00:04:12.317 --> 00:04:17.807
And yeah, I mean then obviously sort of lots of creator own things.
00:04:17.836 --> 00:04:18.947
Um, you.
00:04:19.711 --> 00:04:24.841
uh, we work with some amazing creators whose, whose work I'd read before we started working with them.
00:04:24.841 --> 00:04:36.512
And it's just really, really exciting to, to then go from having been a fan essentially, to be able to, you know, be sat across the table from, from people whose, whose work I've, I've loved for a long time.
00:04:36.512 --> 00:04:37.922
So, yeah, it's,
00:04:38.026 --> 00:04:38.536
Manage that.
00:04:38.586 --> 00:04:39.997
this is tips for me as a podcaster.
00:04:40.057 --> 00:04:48.067
How do you manage your excitement when there's someone that you generally, like having a total fan moment over and then you meet them in real life and have to talk to them on a professional basis?
00:04:48.276 --> 00:04:49.086
How do you manage that
00:04:49.701 --> 00:04:50.721
Um, well, I think
00:04:50.766 --> 00:04:51.726
go, ah, I love you.
00:04:53.122 --> 00:04:58.942
I think you, well, I mean, I dunno, it's sort of, you don't want to scare the horses so you don't want to go kind of full.
00:04:58.942 --> 00:04:59.632
Ah, I love you.
00:04:59.637 --> 00:05:11.632
But I, I think it's okay to say it because actually I think there's something really nice about people being appreciated and you know, if it is someone whose work meant a lot to you, I think it is absolutely fine to say it.
00:05:11.901 --> 00:05:12.322
And.
00:05:12.485 --> 00:05:15.875
you have to kind of take a step back and go, okay, but actually you are a person too.
00:05:16.295 --> 00:05:21.901
you know, you're not just the person who, created this, this amazing story, which I love with all my heart.
00:05:22.002 --> 00:05:29.562
You know, here we are, we are just two people having a conversation and let's just, let's just have that conversation and you know, how you're doing today.
00:05:29.591 --> 00:05:30.732
You know, that sort of stuff.
00:05:30.978 --> 00:05:34.261
I think you the first person to mention peanuts on the podcast.
00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.110
Which I have a real soft spot.
00:05:37.110 --> 00:05:44.021
My dad also is a Peanuts fan and would make parallels between the Lucy and Peanuts and me, which I refute.
00:05:44.440 --> 00:05:46.630
Uh, still to this day it's not the case at all.
00:05:46.971 --> 00:05:48.201
So that's definitely.
00:05:48.550 --> 00:05:53.050
Something that I associate with my kind of family heritage in comics in a way.
00:05:53.261 --> 00:05:57.040
And it is really nice to have those kind of timeless, I would say.
00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:07.940
I mean, I'm sure there's, from a storytelling perspective, Sonic is still very good, but it, that, that's got, that Sonic seems so nineties doesn't, it seems so rooted in that kind of era.
00:06:08.271 --> 00:06:12.761
Whereas, peanuts seems to have more of a longevity and a kind of timelessness about it.
00:06:12.821 --> 00:06:13.810
Yeah, it does.
00:06:13.810 --> 00:06:19.161
Although, I guess what I would say is that, as with everything, it depends on the perspective you bring to it.
00:06:19.670 --> 00:06:30.651
So I sort of feel with Sonic in those kind of comics, particularly because it was being made in the uk, I think the perspective of the creators on it was a little bit more.
00:06:30.809 --> 00:06:37.408
Well, we've been given this property, which obviously is hideously nineties and based on a video game, which doesn't really have that much
00:06:37.574 --> 00:06:39.163
Gloriously nineties.
00:06:39.163 --> 00:06:40.244
Gloriously nineties.
00:06:40.499 --> 00:06:54.959
Yeah, and I think they all just took the attitude, let's, let's tell the kind of stories we wanted to do in, in the same way that you had sort of Grant Morrison doing zoids and you know, then going off and reinventing Batman and Superman.
00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.959
And I think you've got these British creator.
00:06:58.449 --> 00:07:12.363
Who take these properties, which are kind of highly commercial, highly, sort of, you know, constructed almost around a, a set of other things and then bringing them into a sort of sensibility that feels much more, focused.
00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:20.028
How can we make people care about this thing in the way that we do, and how can we make it feel like it really matters?
00:07:20.259 --> 00:07:33.728
And you might think that that's a little bit sort of trite, but I kind of think you have to have a certain naivety when you are telling stories that you have to go, okay, so this this thing which I really care about, how can I.
00:07:35.124 --> 00:07:37.584
Everyone who's reading this cared just as much as me.
00:07:37.584 --> 00:07:43.283
And I think that's in some ways the kind of fundamental question of, you know, how you make things good.
00:07:43.353 --> 00:07:48.124
You are the storyteller in the market square and it almost doesn't matter what story you are telling.
00:07:48.783 --> 00:07:55.024
The way you tell it is the thing that's going to make people go, oh, Oh, hmm.
00:07:55.084 --> 00:07:58.413
You know, all of those kind of noises about like, oh, I'm, I'm suddenly invested.
00:07:58.413 --> 00:07:59.314
I suddenly care.
00:07:59.314 --> 00:08:01.473
I've suddenly got all of my focuses on you.
00:08:01.983 --> 00:08:06.783
And I think that's the power of great stories, and it almost doesn't matter what form they take, you know?
00:08:09.374 --> 00:08:21.283
how do you manage that in terms of you've, I know when we talk, We talked a lot to librarians and different people who are doing a lot of professional reading, which obviously you in your job as well, would do a lot of professional reading.
00:08:21.524 --> 00:08:22.233
How do.
00:08:22.434 --> 00:08:31.033
Sort of carve out that space for yourself as a reader to have that moment of wonder and being drawn into the story or, or is that very much part of your professional day-to-day as well?
00:08:31.524 --> 00:08:32.823
It absolutely is.
00:08:32.923 --> 00:08:38.563
And I don't think the two things are sort of, I don't think the two things are not connected.
00:08:38.563 --> 00:08:41.354
You know, I think you have to have that wonder in this, in this sort of job.
00:08:41.783 --> 00:08:42.563
Because.
00:08:42.563 --> 00:08:46.344
as a human being, the thing that you have the most of really is time.
00:08:46.403 --> 00:08:48.594
You know, what do you want to spend all of your time doing?
00:08:48.594 --> 00:08:52.703
And really you want to be spending your time doing something you really care about.
00:08:53.063 --> 00:08:59.094
Um, and so I have those wonder about stories, and that's one of the reasons why I do this job.
00:08:59.413 --> 00:09:03.344
so if you are working on something and I'm reading something for work.
00:09:03.443 --> 00:09:06.604
I'm hoping that it will give me that sense of wonder when I'm reading it.
00:09:06.984 --> 00:09:12.443
And then you can step back and be a little bit more critical of going, okay, why isn't it doing that?
00:09:12.563 --> 00:09:17.734
What things about it are meaning that, this story is you know, it's being a bit baggy in the middle.
00:09:17.734 --> 00:09:18.874
Where did I lose interest?
00:09:18.874 --> 00:09:21.183
Why did I stop kind of feeling as invested?
00:09:21.604 --> 00:09:25.899
What happened to this character who suddenly, seems to have been forgotten for three chapters?
00:09:25.948 --> 00:09:27.658
What are the questions that I'm asking?
00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:37.809
but I think, that's the difference a little bit between trying to dissect something academically and trying to edit something in this kind of way, which is.
00:09:39.394 --> 00:09:47.684
You know, at the end of the day, the question you are asking is, not so much trying to analyze the techniques or take apart the text in an academic way.
00:09:48.254 --> 00:09:55.154
It's much more about trying to, say, how does this make me feel and is it making me.
00:09:56.144 --> 00:10:00.375
The sort of things that the story is demanding that I feel.
00:10:00.554 --> 00:10:11.668
And if the answer is no, but the story is still demanding it, then what kind of questions actually do I want to ask the author, which might help prompt them to, go back in rework something.
00:10:11.908 --> 00:10:17.572
And then the other skill that I think you have to have a little bit as an editor is, have a memory like a goldfish.
00:10:17.572 --> 00:10:21.173
I'm terrible at remembering the things that happened in previous drafts when I read a new one.
00:10:21.572 --> 00:10:28.471
I'll absolutely be reading something for the 12th time and I just, I won't remember what was in sort of draft seven or draft eight.
00:10:28.476 --> 00:10:30.662
I'm trying to come to something a bit fresh.
00:10:30.662 --> 00:10:34.081
I'm trying to be the new reader, looking at something going, okay.
00:10:35.341 --> 00:10:37.761
And then you meet the story on its own terms, and.
00:10:37.788 --> 00:10:41.028
You can kind of see how that version makes you feel.
00:10:43.787 --> 00:10:52.706
So I think it's really useful is context, just for people listening who myself included, I'm not really sure what the day-to-day role of a commissioning editor would be.
00:10:52.706 --> 00:10:56.236
What, is there anything you've given us a real flavor of the purpose.
00:10:56.317 --> 00:11:01.017
is there anything you can add to that in terms of, you know, what does your role actually sort of entail more broadly?
00:11:01.726 --> 00:11:03.586
So I, I think.
00:11:03.849 --> 00:11:07.989
There's a process that happens with books, but obviously you're doing this with lots of different books at once.
00:11:08.349 --> 00:11:14.678
So essentially you are looking at, here are the things that people would like us to publish on submission.
00:11:15.048 --> 00:11:17.058
Which of these things would we like to publish?
00:11:17.168 --> 00:11:33.424
And then you are hopefully convincing the company that that is something that you want to take forward and that everyone can get excited about, and you try and transmit your own excitement and get them excited about the story and then, you are working with the authors, to develop it.
00:11:33.455 --> 00:11:40.174
And so that might involve starting with the first draft and then meeting with the authors.
00:11:40.225 --> 00:11:47.284
Talking to them about fundamentally what do they want their story to be about, I guess.
00:11:47.284 --> 00:11:49.085
But really, where's the heart of their story?
00:11:49.085 --> 00:11:51.784
What are the things about their story that they care about the most?
00:11:51.835 --> 00:11:52.884
And then how can.
00:11:54.990 --> 00:11:59.549
help the story to be showing off all of those elements in its best possible way.
00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:02.399
And, you know, the stories will demand that themselves.
00:12:02.429 --> 00:12:12.919
You can sort of get a little bit mystical about this, but stories are an intangible thing where like the story themselves will suggest to you, actually, this is really what I'm about.
00:12:13.309 --> 00:12:24.611
And it's a, a process of working together with the author to help identify what those things are, and then sending the author off and they'll go away and, and rewrite, and then send it back in.
00:12:24.611 --> 00:12:28.839
And then you keep those conversations going until, you've arrived at the final version.
00:12:28.938 --> 00:12:36.619
On the other side of it, it's also sort of, getting very, uh, sort of technical on.
00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:51.999
Proofread or writing the blurb or doing all of the, kind of like helping turn the thing that you have in front of you that's been made by the author, by the writer, by the artist, and doing all of the steps that need to turn it into a book.
00:12:51.999 --> 00:12:57.899
So that's working with designers, working with, production, working with, all sorts of wonderful people.
00:12:57.899 --> 00:12:59.729
And it's a very collaborative process.
00:12:59.798 --> 00:13:00.849
Helping to turn.
00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:06.999
This intangible story, first of all, down into something written by the author in the way that they want it to be.
00:13:07.489 --> 00:13:09.589
And that's the very best version of what it can be.
00:13:09.678 --> 00:13:14.208
And then turning that into something that can exist on the shelves in Waterstones.
00:13:14.442 --> 00:13:18.511
when I was listening to you talk then I was thinking, well, as a teacher, when I was.
00:13:18.910 --> 00:13:22.874
Marking or working with children to edit and improve their writing.
00:13:23.083 --> 00:13:27.134
I'm generally not in having conversations about what the heart of their story is.
00:13:27.384 --> 00:13:34.573
It's more of a proofreading job, or it's about creating a writing product really that meets a certain criteria of the curriculum in, in many cases.
00:13:34.573 --> 00:13:37.244
Cause it's not really just sort of writing for pleasure a lot of the time in school.
00:13:37.453 --> 00:13:51.869
But I do think there, there might be parallels in terms of how to best guide people through what can be a difficult process of accepting feedback, of thinking about how to improve something that they've already put a lot of work into and the emotional attachment to that we have to our own creative output, I guess.
00:13:52.543 --> 00:13:53.683
Oh, massively.
00:13:53.683 --> 00:13:59.188
And you know, I think that, That's part of being a human who makes something, you know?
00:13:59.499 --> 00:14:06.589
if you don't feel attached to what you've made, then, that might suggest that it's not something you're as invested in as, as you might need to be.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:25.923
I guess the way I would suggest approaching it, I mean, teachers, teachers know this already, but it's, it's, you ask the questions, it's, you know, it's encouraging that, Process of taking that step back from the thing that you've made yourself and, and helping them to read it as if someone else had written it.
00:14:26.374 --> 00:14:34.384
And then asking, you know, what would they think about it or what are the things that they think are working in teacher's case for the criteria?
00:14:34.573 --> 00:14:38.474
And what are the things that they don't and can they identify those?
00:14:38.573 --> 00:14:51.124
And you know, I think if you've managed to get that little bit of distance, it's really, really valuable because essentially sort of writing is, is the turning of the idea of what's in your head into something tangible.
00:14:51.140 --> 00:14:58.280
Rewriting is the process of making it as good as it can possibly be, and I think you have to sort of acknowledge both parts of that process.
00:14:58.681 --> 00:15:02.181
Otherwise, you're only going to be able to get so far because.
00:15:02.946 --> 00:15:13.272
you know, there may well be, a number of geniuses who can be right first time with everything that they make, and they can construct something which absolutely works in every single way without needing to go back over it.
00:15:13.272 --> 00:15:15.942
But I don't think that's true for, for most people.
00:15:15.942 --> 00:15:16.961
It's certainly not for me.
00:15:17.081 --> 00:15:27.355
And so I think what you want to do is be able to see what you are doing both as a mode of self-expression, but also, part of a process.
00:15:27.929 --> 00:15:30.955
and that the first draft is only the first step in that process.
00:15:31.365 --> 00:15:43.294
And that by the end of that process, hopefully what you've got is something that you can feel not just immensely proud of, but even more proud of than you would've done had you stopped at, at step one.
00:15:43.631 --> 00:15:44.065
Yeah.
00:15:44.095 --> 00:15:55.269
I, I think there is, there is something around that, that, it is about a process I found it really useful an eye-opening for children that when they find out that, you know, famous authors, they are going through the same process as well.
00:15:55.269 --> 00:15:59.259
It isn't about this thing you did isn't good enough, it's that it's not finished.
00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:04.240
Cuz you, this is the process that we go through is that you, you have a first draft and then you, you know, you revisit.
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:05.649
And I think sometimes we just.
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:11.480
In the school timetable, you're kind of writing one day and editing it and improving it the next, and then you're onto something else.
00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:27.282
There's not actually any time for you to have distance from it, I've found it really valuable, the following term to go, well, let's just dip back into some of our writing that we did a few weeks ago, because then they, it is easier a little bit to have that kind of distance from what you've done and be able to see it with fresh eyes, I guess.
00:16:27.282 --> 00:16:36.976
Is that something, is it quite a tight timeframe often in the publishing world or, Is there an opportunity for creators to have that bit of distance from what they've
00:16:37.147 --> 00:16:39.756
I think the honest answer is it depends on what's being made.
00:16:40.226 --> 00:16:45.326
But I think that what you try and do is you try and build that in as much as you can.
00:16:45.807 --> 00:16:55.966
So, the process can be, particularly if, you've got a, a series being produced, that there will be a sort of imperative there to try and.
00:16:56.236 --> 00:17:07.307
Publish regularly because what you're trying to do is, you know, you've got readers really excited about book one and book two, and so book three might have a little bit more pressure on it to be delivered in a certain amount of time.
00:17:07.307 --> 00:17:17.096
But I also think that's not really the best way to be thinking about it, because ultimately what you want to do is you want to also be leaving your readers as satisfied as possible.
00:17:17.426 --> 00:17:28.106
I think on the flip side, I think there is definitely, a real vital importance in giving authors space to, to really hone their, their story.
00:17:28.207 --> 00:17:39.196
We published at the end of last year, an amazing book, absolutely stunning book called Tyger By SF Said, with some brilliant illustrations by Dave McKeean.
00:17:39.257 --> 00:17:43.207
And, SF had been working on that novel.
00:17:43.807 --> 00:17:46.116
For best part of nine years.
00:17:46.207 --> 00:17:52.356
And that was an enormous number of versions and redrafting and, and all of that.
00:17:52.356 --> 00:18:09.307
And, you know, there were things that he discovered in sort of version 10 of the story, which suddenly elevated the whole thing because, you know, if you can have that space and time, You have the ability to suddenly see all of the potential in your story.
00:18:09.307 --> 00:18:17.047
And obviously as an editor, that's the kind of thing you are, you are there to sort of ask questions, which hopefully prompt those answers.
00:18:17.436 --> 00:18:25.344
But the stories belong to the authors and it's about them sort of realizing that I'm even better than I thought I was.
00:18:25.433 --> 00:18:30.624
You know, suddenly all of these things are in, in this idea, which I've already had, and.
00:18:31.374 --> 00:18:42.023
Suddenly if I change this name here or I change this concept here and I just move things a little bit, it reframes the entire, the entire story and everything just glows that bit more.
00:18:42.243 --> 00:18:46.449
So, yes, I think, in certain cases there is time.
00:18:46.449 --> 00:18:47.709
In certain cases there aren't.
00:18:47.808 --> 00:18:55.308
you know, speaking about comics as well, obviously, at D F B we have a, a really close partnership with the Phoenix comic.
00:18:55.368 --> 00:18:57.558
And I also work on the Phoenix as well.
00:18:57.749 --> 00:19:00.028
The Phoenix is an anthology comic.
00:19:00.028 --> 00:19:02.429
32 pages, full color comes out every single.
00:19:03.118 --> 00:19:07.769
And because it's every single week of the year and there are 32 pages that need to be
00:19:07.773 --> 00:19:08.673
has a lot of space
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.189
um, there is a lot of space to fill and there's an anthology.
00:19:11.189 --> 00:19:17.939
So some, some comics, you know, Jamie Smarts, bunny versus Monkey will be two pages in, uh, the Phoenix that week.
00:19:18.229 --> 00:19:21.953
There'll be other comics that will be four pages, maybe six pages.
00:19:22.203 --> 00:19:31.913
and some will be one pages or some will be sort of three panel shorts, but it's a juggling act with that because obviously you need to be providing a lot of material every single week.
00:19:31.913 --> 00:19:41.213
And so ideally what you want to do is have everything done well in advance, but you are always trying to make sure that, there will be a comic for all of the subscribers and readers, on a Friday.
00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:43.055
That brings other pressures as well.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.089
yeah, for sure.
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.390
and David Fickling books has been Well known for, its graphic novels.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.720
has that always been part of the David Fickling mission?
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:57.140
Is that kind of central to it or is it just something that's developed over time is that something that's evolved because of the Phoenix?
00:19:57.140 --> 00:20:00.619
I'm just interested in that relationship and the kind of the flow between the two.
00:20:00.730 --> 00:20:00.930
I.
00:20:01.474 --> 00:20:07.255
I think David has always been incredibly passionate about, about children's comics, and particularly anthology comics.
00:20:07.315 --> 00:20:11.085
So, back in 2008, 2009, there.
00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:20.358
David launched the D ffc, which was a sort of forerunner of the Phoenix, that he put together, while he was running the company.
00:20:20.449 --> 00:20:27.108
David Fickling books, which is now independent and has been independent since 2013, but at that time was an imprint of Random House.
00:20:27.209 --> 00:20:32.574
And so the D FFC was a sort of first run at this, so this was always something that David was incredibly passionate about.
00:20:33.084 --> 00:20:41.943
And then obviously the financial crash of 2008 hit the Phoenix was a, a wonderful opportunity to sort of relaunch, as an independent company.
00:20:41.949 --> 00:20:52.233
And, that has been going, going strong since 2012 and since the beginning of D F B as an independent company, we've been publishing, graphic novels using.
00:20:52.858 --> 00:20:54.378
the material created by the Phoenix.
00:20:54.378 --> 00:20:59.378
So in the sort of early days, we used to do a reduced, A4 size.
00:20:59.378 --> 00:21:01.058
So the Phoenix is produced a day, four size.
00:21:01.058 --> 00:21:05.038
We would take, the strips from the phoenix and bundle'em up.
00:21:05.473 --> 00:21:10.034
do some work to them to make them work a bit better as a book, and then we'd bring them out into the market.
00:21:10.453 --> 00:21:27.499
And what's happened in the last kind of few years is that the, success of comics like Dav Pilkey's Dog Man, Raina Telgemeir's Smile and things like that, essentially showed book sellers by pure volume of sales that there.
00:21:28.594 --> 00:21:51.844
This massive audience that we always knew was there because we always knew that kids love comics, and since we started reformatting the graphic novels in 2020, we were sort of able to, you know, come along to a, to a bookshop situation, which was now willing to shelve graphic novels alongside.
00:21:52.739 --> 00:21:53.209
children's fiction.
00:21:53.398 --> 00:22:08.699
And I think that's been just wonderful because I think, you know, with Bunny Versus Monkey, which has been enormously successful, so Jamie Smart's sort of brilliant, brilliant now quite long running series of seven books that are out in the, in the market at the moment.
00:22:09.209 --> 00:22:11.608
You know, book eight will be coming out at the end of this year.
00:22:11.909 --> 00:22:14.628
That is, fantastic for lots of reasons.
00:22:14.628 --> 00:22:18.048
One was that we always knew this was amazing and brilliant and suddenly.
00:22:19.189 --> 00:22:26.328
That and, and the other, Phoenix graphic novels, finding much bigger and more successful audiences, is fantastic.
00:22:26.328 --> 00:22:33.969
But I think, the bookshops were sort of primed to shelve them in the main children's section in a way that I think has, really opened that door.
00:22:34.028 --> 00:22:35.169
it's been really exciting.
00:22:35.348 --> 00:22:51.098
In terms of the two companies, we obviously work incredibly closely together and it's meant that we've had, in the case of Money versus Monkey, Jamie Smart has been doing two pages every single week for about 10 years, which means that if one year's worth.
00:22:51.804 --> 00:22:54.864
Bunny versus monkey can make one new format book.
00:22:55.374 --> 00:23:07.814
We've been in a very advantageous publishing position where we had all of this material and we were sort of now able to, get it into the hands of, of kids in a format that the bookshops were excited to sell.
00:23:07.874 --> 00:23:10.963
And we've just seen it go from, from strength to strength to strength.
00:23:10.963 --> 00:23:13.453
So it's been, it's been very, very exciting.
00:23:13.494 --> 00:23:31.674
You mentioned Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier and people I've been speaking to on the podcast will mention Jamie Smart and, Alice Oseman as the kind of English versions that their popularity of both Bunny versus monkey and Heart Stopper has really been instrumental in Kickstarting what they hope to be.
00:23:31.914 --> 00:23:36.359
Graphic novels and comics becoming more mainstream, mirroring what's happened in America.
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:48.309
it's, I think we always knew that kids love comics because we knew that, um, you know, storytelling in all forms is, something incredibly special.
00:23:48.309 --> 00:23:51.579
And, the ways in which you receive stories work.
00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:59.029
You know, differently for different people, but I think there's just a sort of openness and, accessibility about comics, which is, which is incredibly exciting.
00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:03.019
I think that, both with Jamie and with Alice Osman.
00:24:03.349 --> 00:24:24.660
I think that, it's brilliant seeing them have the success that they have and obviously, you know, we hope to build on that and we know how amazing all of the other creators we have working with us are, and, developing that space for children's graphic novels within the uk but also, worldwide, you know, is absolutely.
00:24:25.525 --> 00:24:27.569
part of what, what our mission really is.
00:24:27.619 --> 00:24:29.829
We have, a really exciting moment here.
00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:38.750
And I think that, it basically wanting to get this wonderful work into the hands of as many kids as, as we possibly can because we know that they'll love it.
00:24:38.910 --> 00:24:42.720
And I think that, that's been proved by, by Jamie's success.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:43.890
all of it comes back to Jamie.
00:24:43.890 --> 00:24:44.220
Really.
00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:50.980
Jamie is an absolutely incredible creator, one of the hardest workers that I've ever come across.
00:24:51.069 --> 00:24:58.599
And he is just an absolute genius at understanding what children love and what makes them laugh.
00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:05.839
And, none of this success happens without a creator as skillful, talented, and, and brilliant as he is.
00:25:05.957 --> 00:25:10.951
And it turns out that once you've solved the shelving problem, a lot of things can follow.
00:25:10.951 --> 00:25:14.132
So having the books in the right format was, was absolutely step one.
00:25:14.582 --> 00:25:25.112
But it's also worth saying how supportive Waterstones have been, and I think it's enormously to their credit, that they were willing to really get behind children's graphic novels.
00:25:25.321 --> 00:25:29.912
And I think without Waterstone's support, it wouldn't have got to where it.
00:25:30.592 --> 00:25:52.201
but also, um, has been an enormous amount of hard work on the part of, in particular people like Villa, our sales director and Fraser Hutchinson, our PR manager, who have put an enormous amount of effort and energy and thought and creativity into how to get these books to market in the right kind of way.
00:25:52.862 --> 00:25:56.972
And of course, you've got the Phoenix and, uh, built-in audience of.
00:25:57.662 --> 00:26:04.922
Receptive kids who already love Bunny versus monkey love, Jamie Smart, and they're sort of primed to, to go great guns for it as well.
00:26:04.922 --> 00:26:18.991
But I think definitely when you've got something that starts well can build and you can publish repeatedly, you can create a snowball effect, which in the case of Bunny versus monkey, has just been incredibly gratifying to see.
00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:19.471
Yeah.
00:26:19.471 --> 00:26:20.040
Here, here.
00:26:22.949 --> 00:26:27.104
As a publisher, do you focus, mostly on, reading for pleasure?
00:26:27.233 --> 00:26:36.634
I think that that's where definitely in terms of schools, that's where 10 to see comics and graphic novels sitting in this, it's quite firmly in the reading for pleasure.
00:26:36.753 --> 00:26:41.628
Not so much embedded in the curriculum though, though there, obviously there are lots of cases of schools doing that, but it's not widespread.
00:26:42.183 --> 00:26:48.663
It's kind of, if you've got one passionate member of staff who's confident and wants to give it a go, then, then you are seeing comics in the classroom.
00:26:48.814 --> 00:26:50.763
If not, it tends to be in the library.
00:26:50.794 --> 00:26:52.263
In, in the sort of reading for pleasure.
00:26:52.683 --> 00:26:56.523
Is that something that also you would like to see more of or is that something that you are interested.
00:26:57.084 --> 00:27:04.284
in supporting teachers to do, to actually use the comics, or graphic novels in the classroom space and sort of curriculum delivery more.
00:27:04.327 --> 00:27:04.958
Absolutely.
00:27:05.127 --> 00:27:13.393
I think that, It's also about what's the right sort of, start for a conversation, you know?
00:27:13.452 --> 00:27:21.143
because I think there are certain comics that, are definitely brilliant at starting those sort of conversations.
00:27:21.143 --> 00:27:27.678
So, we published an amazing graphic novel by Patrice Aggs and Joe Brady called No Country, which is,
00:27:28.038 --> 00:27:31.508
I've actually just very recently reread that, in the last couple of weeks.
00:27:31.557 --> 00:27:32.907
So it's very fresh in my mind.
00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:33.828
Oh, fantastic.
00:27:33.828 --> 00:27:39.259
And that's kind of an inversion of a, um, a Civil War story.
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:52.753
It's a, a story about a civil war kind of raging in, in the uk and this family, these two sisters and their younger brother and their dad, trying to live a normal life sort of in the middle of this, restricted near war zone.
00:27:52.804 --> 00:27:53.943
And I think.
00:27:54.558 --> 00:27:57.108
Kind of book is a brilliant conversation starter.
00:27:57.108 --> 00:28:16.048
I also think that Neill Cameron does the most amazing work, with Mega Robo Bros, is an incredibly, exciting, thrilling, moving, powerful, but also very subtle the thing that Neil is so good at is taking this format, which is about these two brother.
00:28:16.778 --> 00:28:27.203
Alex and Freddy, who are robots and who have all of your sort of brotherly scuffles and fights and things, but also, as well as big adventures where they get to punch giant robots.
00:28:27.413 --> 00:28:38.574
He's also looking at what does it mean to be a robot who doesn't necessarily have, for example, a fixed gender or what does it mean to be, different?
00:28:38.634 --> 00:28:41.574
And I think using those sort of.
00:28:42.368 --> 00:28:48.118
You know, story, ideas and then really drilling down into what does that then mean?
00:28:48.358 --> 00:28:57.689
You know, I think is a wonderful way to sort of present some really, interesting, fascinating, intensely human ideas to kids.
00:28:58.098 --> 00:29:01.548
And I think would be wonderful conversation starters in a, in a classroom.
00:29:02.148 --> 00:29:14.878
I think it also becomes a question then of, What's the kind of overall framework of the class and I think that what Neil does is so brilliant because it is an incredibly pleasurable read and it's really really fun.
00:29:14.878 --> 00:29:16.199
It's just really, really fun.
00:29:16.278 --> 00:29:24.108
I think basically there's lots of brilliant things in all of the comic books that we, we try and, and try and make.
00:29:24.108 --> 00:29:26.959
But I think primarily, our audiences.
00:29:27.364 --> 00:29:28.384
Is the readers.
00:29:28.413 --> 00:29:33.364
It's, you know, first of all the subscribers to the Phoenix, and then it's the audience for all of the, the books.
00:29:33.423 --> 00:29:43.114
And I think that, um, you know, it's, you want to kind of spark people's imagination and that can go in all sorts of different directions.
00:29:43.473 --> 00:29:47.828
But in order to do that, you want to give them material that that can really matter to them.
00:29:48.128 --> 00:30:03.306
And I think anything that matters to you can be an object of discussion in a classroom because I think that means that you are thinking about it properly and that means that you are engaging with it in a way that, will spark further thought and can spark further conversation.
00:30:05.357 --> 00:30:08.538
How do you, pitch and set your kind of age ranges?
00:30:08.538 --> 00:30:12.232
Because things like, Neill's Mega Robo series.
00:30:12.232 --> 00:30:21.623
They've got, actually got quite, and I would just think something like Jamie Smart, you've got a real broad range of appeal and lots of different layers there that could be accessed to lots of different ages.
00:30:21.903 --> 00:30:29.002
I just wonder how you go about sort of where you're gonna pitch those books, for what age range and how you make sure that you've kind of tailoring that content.
00:30:30.343 --> 00:30:40.972
Well, I guess what I would say is that you have to have a, duty of care to the children that are going to be reading the books that you publish, or the comic that you publish.
00:30:41.032 --> 00:30:52.542
And so it's about making sure that, you aren't sort of breaching that duty of care in a way that is going to be upsetting in a way that isn't, isn't appropriate, if you see what I mean.
00:30:52.932 --> 00:31:02.958
Within that though, I don't think that age ranging in that kind of way is, is sort of enormously helpful in the sense because that's sort of a publishing problem, right?
00:31:02.958 --> 00:31:04.698
In the, in the making of it.
00:31:04.998 --> 00:31:06.438
I don't think you need to be too.
00:31:07.173 --> 00:31:10.663
Stringent about, things like complexity of language.
00:31:10.772 --> 00:31:19.702
I think in all of them, and I would absolutely include Jamie Smart in this Laura Anderson who does Evil Penguin, James Turner and Yasmin Shake, star Cat has some very complex.
00:31:20.772 --> 00:31:21.653
Language in it as well.
00:31:21.873 --> 00:31:41.462
But I think you frame that kind of stuff in context and so that if a reader is encountering a word, which they don't know yet, you can have that as an exciting thing because if you are framing it in the context of a comic panel where the reader can see what is going on visually, that actually helps to kind of.
00:31:42.488 --> 00:31:46.627
Their ability to understand what this word really means.
00:31:46.728 --> 00:31:49.248
And so then obviously if they want to go and look it up later, they can.
00:31:49.248 --> 00:31:52.097
But if they just want to move past it and go onto the next thing, that's fine.
00:31:52.307 --> 00:31:54.228
But they've, they've encountered a new word.
00:31:54.228 --> 00:31:58.907
They can internalize that word and then, um, you know, you can help sort of.
00:31:59.135 --> 00:32:05.165
Very subtly, stretch their reading ability or like push them a little bit further.
00:32:05.165 --> 00:32:07.115
And I don't think we need to be afraid of that.
00:32:07.425 --> 00:32:16.490
I think kids are really good at, at sort of self-censoring, both when they encounter sort of words which are a bit more complicated or, or ideas that are a little bit more complicated.
00:32:16.760 --> 00:32:26.050
I think kids are brilliant at, taking the, the kind of the ideas and the tone and things like that, that they really connect to.
00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:29.931
So again, with Neill's Mega Robo Bros you've got Alex, who's the older.
00:32:30.625 --> 00:32:31.256
the older robot.
00:32:31.256 --> 00:32:35.246
And then you've got Freddy, who's the younger one, and Freddy is an absolute ball of energy.
00:32:35.276 --> 00:32:42.076
He's a huge kind of whirlwind of, wanting to punch everything and just enthusiasm and massive ego.
00:32:42.076 --> 00:32:46.875
You know, he's your absolute nine year old who's kind of standing up on all the tables, waiting his arms going, look at me.
00:32:47.205 --> 00:32:47.566
You know?
00:32:47.935 --> 00:32:52.915
And I think if you are that kind of hyperactive younger kid, you'll absolutely hone in on the Freddie moment.
00:32:53.556 --> 00:33:05.756
And Neil did a brilliant job, of writing three amazing illustrated fiction books, all about Freddy, which have that real energetic voice to them that are just, they're fantastic books.
00:33:06.175 --> 00:33:12.286
If you're a slightly older kid, you might connect a bit more with Alex, who's a little bit more, kind of internal.
00:33:12.336 --> 00:33:17.036
He is more questioning about, all of the decisions that you have to make as a, as a.
00:33:17.800 --> 00:33:25.611
Person growing up in the world, and how you want to be seen and how you want to kind of connect to other people.
00:33:25.691 --> 00:33:29.500
And you'll hone in a little bit more on those, those sort of moments.
00:33:29.601 --> 00:33:33.770
And so, what you try and do is you try and create books that.
00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:39.855
giving readers of all ages, something to kind of hook into, and something to enjoy
00:33:40.181 --> 00:33:47.090
And do you think of a parent at the same time as that like the experience of shared reading in the home we see, in cartoons on, the tv.
00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:51.010
Sometimes you can see really clearly that kind of, that, that line was for the parent.
00:33:51.611 --> 00:33:59.503
Kind of, um, aside, is that, is is really less less of that what's your approach to thinking about Adults also accessing the texts,
00:34:00.259 --> 00:34:02.388
um, I mean, I think that it.
00:34:02.708 --> 00:34:03.278
to an extent.
00:34:03.278 --> 00:34:15.878
It depends a little bit on the text, but I think that fundamentally you are trying to make something that is, exciting, interesting, meaningful, that has sort of emotion to it as well.
00:34:15.878 --> 00:34:20.648
And I think if you've done that job well, then that doesn't need to be age restricted.
00:34:20.648 --> 00:34:21.608
It doesn't matter what age you are.
00:34:21.608 --> 00:34:22.027
So if you're a
00:34:22.057 --> 00:34:23.737
It works cuz it works for humans,
00:34:23.882 --> 00:34:24.336
Exactly.
00:34:24.516 --> 00:34:25.025
Yeah.
00:34:25.025 --> 00:34:26.409
It's, that's a hundred percent it.
00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:28.119
You make the story work as a story.
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:39.969
You make the story work for humans, and then parents can share that with their, their children because hopefully what you've made is a really good story that everyone wants to read and everyone wants to, to experience.
00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:45.719
And it doesn't matter what age you are, I think, within something like the Phoenix as well, because you have that little bit.
00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:48.030
Variety of comics.
00:34:48.030 --> 00:34:54.420
I think that there are certain things, so for example, the Fates and fortunes choose your own adventure stories will sometimes
00:34:54.824 --> 00:34:55.905
I really love those.
00:34:56.632 --> 00:34:57.827
I am also a cheat when I do that.
00:34:58.836 --> 00:35:02.527
I do, I totally look ahead to see which is the right way to go.
00:35:03.202 --> 00:35:03.762
You cheat.
00:35:03.818 --> 00:35:05.228
Oh, I can't believe that.
00:35:05.318 --> 00:35:07.077
Oh, That's terrible.
00:35:07.248 --> 00:35:07.597
No.
00:35:07.777 --> 00:35:09.128
That's not kind of low life.
00:35:09.128 --> 00:35:09.547
I am
00:35:12.213 --> 00:35:12.358
No.
00:35:12.358 --> 00:35:13.228
Here's the secret.
00:35:13.498 --> 00:35:14.878
I think Cheating's Okay.
00:35:15.177 --> 00:35:16.648
I think it's fine on that.
00:35:16.927 --> 00:35:21.338
because the whole point of a choose your own adventure is you want to see what all of the different endings can be.
00:35:21.338 --> 00:35:21.998
And I think.
00:35:23.137 --> 00:35:24.367
It's, it's great.
00:35:24.648 --> 00:35:32.027
But also I think within those we use a little bit more elevated language because I think we know that quite a lot of parents are reading those with their kids.
00:35:32.538 --> 00:35:38.818
And so there's an, an opportunity there to sort of introduce slightly more complex tonal language that is really fun.
00:35:39.592 --> 00:35:43.882
But I think is, is kind of going to be more of that sort of shared experience.
00:35:43.963 --> 00:35:45.132
So yeah.
00:35:45.132 --> 00:35:52.632
But I mean, overall what you want to do is you want to make good stuff and then people will want to read it and then it doesn't matter what age they are, they'll
00:35:52.802 --> 00:35:53.163
Yeah.
00:35:53.253 --> 00:35:54.393
Yeah, that's so true.
00:35:55.023 --> 00:35:57.393
And we are coming to towards the end.
00:35:57.393 --> 00:36:09.802
I do just wanted to ask you, you mentioned, Neil Cameron's middle grade fictions, illustrated fiction as well, and I was interested in, someone had asked me the other day, so they were getting questions around, how'd you move children on from comics and graphic novels and.
00:36:10.262 --> 00:36:19.172
Almost suggested, oh, and then I thought, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to reinforce the just idea that children should be moved on from comics and graphic novels.
00:36:19.512 --> 00:36:25.293
But obviously often the people who create, graphic novels also create prose books.
00:36:25.322 --> 00:36:30.873
And I wondered if that that was why you have them in your collection or, where, where that kind of evolution came from.
00:36:31.052 --> 00:36:33.963
Are you seeing it as a next step or are they kind of a parallel thing?
00:36:34.449 --> 00:36:36.400
They're 100% a parallel thing.
00:36:36.570 --> 00:36:39.289
It's not about moving anyone on from anything.
00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:40.090
Comics are great.
00:36:40.844 --> 00:36:41.804
Prose books are great.
00:36:41.804 --> 00:36:43.454
Illustrated novels are great.
00:36:43.864 --> 00:36:56.045
And I think what that's a hundred percent about is that there are brilliant creators who are brilliant storytellers and it doesn't really sort of matter what form they're telling those stories in.
00:36:56.050 --> 00:37:03.954
It's another opportunity for their stories to exist in the world for potentially a different audience or, new readers who won't have heard of them.
00:37:04.539 --> 00:37:10.864
and their work, in comics, but they might discover them in books and then that will hopefully also feed back into the comics as well.
00:37:10.864 --> 00:37:12.244
And it's a real synergy there.
00:37:12.244 --> 00:37:20.974
But across, across the creator's work, I think what we care about is stories and pros, stories illustrated pros, stories.
00:37:21.905 --> 00:37:29.945
Comics are all different forms of that kind of communication of that idea of, you know, here's a character who I want you to care about.
00:37:30.215 --> 00:37:32.195
Here's a really exciting circumstance.
00:37:32.275 --> 00:37:39.204
And I think Neil is a really great example of this because he's just an absolute born storyteller and I think that.
00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:45.219
You know, for him or for Jamie who's also written, the Illustrated Flemer novels.
00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:51.260
Lauren Anderson, who I mentioned earlier, is obviously massively successful with Amelia Fang and Rainbow Gray.
00:37:51.510 --> 00:38:02.539
Jamie Littler as well, who, um, is a brilliant illustrator now, brilliant writer and illustrator also, made comics for the Phoenix quite a few years ago now.
00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:06.320
But I think there's so many people who have this real.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:13.190
Talent for, creating characters that, that we care about and writing brilliant stories.
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:16.880
And so it's just a different form for them to do that.
00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:26.976
and I think it's, it's been really exciting seeing that happen because I think that, you can see all sorts of possibilities that come out of the different forms that can kind of inform each other.
00:38:27.567 --> 00:38:29.126
I think there are certain things that come out.
00:38:30.492 --> 00:38:36.342
Constructing a, a prose story that can then feed back into the making of comics and can elevate that.
00:38:36.402 --> 00:38:45.222
And I think a lot of the skills that come from being someone who's brilliant at comics means that the type of novels you write will have certain things about them that other people can't bring to them.
00:38:45.731 --> 00:38:46.641
And so it's.
00:38:47.532 --> 00:38:54.431
You know, what are the things that make these creators really wonderful and special and really exciting to, to read?
00:38:54.532 --> 00:38:57.681
And what things can they write that no one else can write?
00:38:57.711 --> 00:39:01.072
Um, and that may turn out to be, to be a comic.
00:39:01.072 --> 00:39:02.211
It may turn out to be a novel.
00:39:02.211 --> 00:39:03.771
It can be, could be anything.
00:39:06.695 --> 00:39:17.014
Can you give us three points, two or three points that you'd like to leave us with kind of thinking points, things for educators to mull over or just summarize the things that you've been talking about today?
00:39:17.014 --> 00:39:19.835
What would you like to leave us thinking at the end of this podcast?
00:39:20.510 --> 00:39:22.101
Well, I think that.
00:39:24.335 --> 00:39:32.376
I think stories are probably the most important things that human beings have, and I think a love of reading comes from a love of stories.
00:39:32.556 --> 00:39:35.076
So it doesn't really matter what form those stories take.
00:39:35.076 --> 00:39:36.425
They are absolutely valid.
00:39:36.846 --> 00:39:39.306
And you know the question sort of.
00:39:40.146 --> 00:39:41.735
Why do you care about this?
00:39:41.735 --> 00:39:43.956
I think can apply to absolutely everything.
00:39:44.346 --> 00:39:51.666
So if kids care, if anyone cares about something, they will make an effort to try and work at it or trying to understand it.
00:39:51.965 --> 00:39:55.175
And it sort of doesn't matter what that is, but you can connect everything to stories.
00:39:55.175 --> 00:39:59.376
So if a kid is really excited about sport, is stories.
00:39:59.710 --> 00:40:00.911
Sport is storytelling.
00:40:00.940 --> 00:40:05.530
It 100% is because you've got the, the narrative of that particular football match.
00:40:05.530 --> 00:40:12.432
But you've also got the narrative of that particular player who's just come back from an injury or you've got the narrative of, you have, you actually, you've got the struggle.
00:40:12.432 --> 00:40:16.242
You've got the fact that they were two, one down at halftime, but they came back to win four, two.
00:40:16.248 --> 00:40:22.992
You know, I think all of these kind of things are stories fundamentally, and I think.
00:40:24.032 --> 00:40:26.822
People engage with stories all the way through their lives.
00:40:27.063 --> 00:40:43.652
The story about the story that you tell yourself about how your life went, the, the kind of crisis that you have in your own life when your story is interrupted, because circumstances mean that the narrative that you had planned for yourself isn't going to go the way you thought.
00:40:43.983 --> 00:40:48.693
Again, it's, it's all about stories, and I think fundamentally when you.
00:40:49.893 --> 00:40:51.362
Connecting with reading.
00:40:51.693 --> 00:41:03.213
You are connecting with story and you are connecting with the fundamental principle about how we understand the world and about the thing that makes us human and everything else.
00:41:03.242 --> 00:41:17.273
About how well the authors communicated those ideas about the language that they've used about the literate kind of ways that you can communicate ideas in more clever ways than others or whatever else, all flows from that.
00:41:17.572 --> 00:41:24.083
And I think if kids care about stories, I think they will care about life.
00:41:24.143 --> 00:41:32.452
And I think that means that the whole principle of education is encouraging, essentially.
00:41:33.083 --> 00:41:40.003
People to grow up and to become adults and, empathetic, understanding, members of the human race.
00:41:40.003 --> 00:41:44.112
And I think there is no better way of doing that than, than through story.
00:41:44.652 --> 00:41:58.492
And I think that if you are, looking at children who are sort of struggling to connect to reading, I think there are a million, million ways.
00:41:59.092 --> 00:42:04.913
Of connecting them to stories, and then from that, everything else can flow.
00:42:05.226 --> 00:42:06.306
Completely agree.
00:42:06.306 --> 00:42:11.706
That was very stirring and profound and a great thing to leave people thinking about.
00:42:11.706 --> 00:42:12.576
So thank you for that.
00:42:12.581 --> 00:42:14.076
That was superb.
00:42:14.773 --> 00:42:27.972
Final thing, I think this is gonna be very difficult for you in, in your role, uh, but can you leave us with one book, just one or comic that you would put on our to be read pile?
00:42:28.588 --> 00:42:29.547
what should we add?
00:42:29.637 --> 00:42:31.010
That you're only allowed to choose one.
00:42:31.059 --> 00:42:32.079
Only allowed to choose one.
00:42:32.135 --> 00:42:34.715
Sometimes people just completely flout that, to be frank.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:36.844
But that's that
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.079
no, no, it's fine.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:42.400
I mean, the, the cheat answer here is to say the Phoenix, um,
00:42:42.644 --> 00:42:43.045
allow it.
00:42:43.090 --> 00:42:56.065
something for everyone in it and you know, but I, and I think also professionally, I, I probably have to say the Phoenix, but I also mean it because, you know, it is, it is so, Truly magnificent and there is something for everyone in it.
00:42:56.065 --> 00:43:02.275
So I will say I, the Phoenix, and if I'm not allowed to pick the, the thing that I work on as well, I would say
00:43:02.934 --> 00:43:03.784
That is brilliant.
00:43:03.784 --> 00:43:04.235
Thank you.
00:43:04.235 --> 00:43:06.125
I would second the Phoenix.
00:43:06.125 --> 00:43:06.724
It arrived.
00:43:07.114 --> 00:43:09.065
On, it's actually still on the doormat.
00:43:09.447 --> 00:43:09.568
mine.
00:43:09.568 --> 00:43:10.248
I'm not allowed to open it.
00:43:10.637 --> 00:43:13.367
Um, but yeah, it's great excitement
00:43:13.568 --> 00:43:13.807
Right.
00:43:13.813 --> 00:43:14.108
Two
00:43:15.047 --> 00:43:18.728
great excitement when it arrives in my house every week, from me and from my children.
00:43:18.788 --> 00:43:21.518
So yes, I would second that of the Phoenix too.
00:43:21.737 --> 00:43:24.838
Thank you so much for, coming onto the podcast.
00:43:24.838 --> 00:43:25.918
It's been brilliant to hear.
00:43:26.257 --> 00:43:30.307
Really different perspective and just centering the importa.
00:43:30.773 --> 00:43:36.695
of stories has been really lovely and I feel quite energized.
00:43:36.755 --> 00:43:37.804
So thank you so much.
00:43:37.804 --> 00:43:38.795
It's been brilliant.
00:43:38.947 --> 00:43:39.608
Thank you, Lucy.
00:43:39.608 --> 00:43:40.237
It's been a real pleasure
00:01:45.487 --> 00:01:46.087
Hello an Anthony.
00:01:46.093 --> 00:01:47.138
Welcome to Comic Boom.
00:01:47.206 --> 00:01:47.932
Hello Lucy.
00:01:48.251 --> 00:01:49.302
I'm really pleased to be here.
00:01:49.322 --> 00:01:50.706
thanks so much for coming today.
00:01:50.753 --> 00:01:55.433
We've got lots to talk about and some really interesting and different perspectives that you're gonna be able to bring to the podcast.
00:01:55.459 --> 00:01:58.947
but can you tell us, about your journey as a comics fan?
00:01:58.947 --> 00:02:00.456
Do you read comics for Pleasure?
00:02:00.456 --> 00:02:05.677
Have you in the past read comics for Pleasure before it was kind of part of your day-to-day work, and where did that all start?
00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:07.868
yes is the short answer.
00:02:07.868 --> 00:02:08.318
Yes.
00:02:08.318 --> 00:02:08.889
A lot.
00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:10.438
Um, and I think.
00:02:11.253 --> 00:02:21.985
it started, I dunno if there's any parents listening to this, but I would absolutely recommend that if you have books that you really loved yourself, put them in your child's room as they're growing up.
00:02:22.045 --> 00:02:31.346
Because my dad had all of the kind of old peanuts, the Charlie Brown and Snoopy sort of collections from the sixties and seventies, which were brilliant.
00:02:31.376 --> 00:02:33.716
And as I was growing up, they were literally just on the.
00:02:34.431 --> 00:02:35.151
In my room.
00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:39.170
And so I'd pick them up, read them obsessively over and over again.
00:02:39.230 --> 00:02:47.061
Charles Schultz is just a genius at, at both cartooning, but just at really getting to the core of what it, what it means to be human.
00:02:47.061 --> 00:02:49.854
And I think, peanuts was absolutely where it started.
00:02:50.254 --> 00:02:53.789
Then as I got a bit older, I got into, the Beano a bit.
00:02:54.919 --> 00:03:04.965
And I really got into when I was about sort of nine, this, anthology comic called Sonic the Comic, which was entirely based around, Sonic the Hedgehog from the Mega Drive games.
00:03:04.974 --> 00:03:12.775
it was a British comic and it was being made by these wonderful creators, many of whom went on to things at Marvel and things like that as well.
00:03:12.875 --> 00:03:13.955
But there wasn't really that.
00:03:14.735 --> 00:03:18.125
Like that in the sort of early, mid nineties.
00:03:18.215 --> 00:03:24.004
And, it was just the most exciting thing because you had all of these different types of stories.
00:03:24.004 --> 00:03:32.735
You have lots of different stories based on lots of different games, but you had brilliant creators doing really sort of, you know, quite challenging storytelling with it as well.
00:03:32.814 --> 00:03:34.965
And I know talking to some of the people who.
00:03:35.127 --> 00:03:36.717
Draw for the Phoenix comic.
00:03:36.817 --> 00:03:38.766
It was quite a big influence on them as well.
00:03:38.766 --> 00:03:41.947
So it, it obviously hit at the right moment when there wasn't much around.
00:03:42.326 --> 00:03:44.247
But it was just super exciting.
00:03:44.347 --> 00:03:53.206
And then a lot of, Batman annuals actually, sort of older, kind of 1970s, 1960s Batman stories, which felt a bit more in.
00:03:54.347 --> 00:03:58.727
Sort of along with the Adam West sort of TV show, that kind of slightly sillier Batman.
00:03:59.146 --> 00:04:04.606
And then I, I got into manga as a young teen and sort of read, read all sorts of manga.
00:04:04.606 --> 00:04:07.546
I mean, you know, manga is, manga is not a genre.
00:04:07.551 --> 00:04:08.146
It's everything.
00:04:08.146 --> 00:04:08.956
It's every genre.
00:04:09.067 --> 00:04:12.217
So I would just devour loads and loads of manga books.
00:04:12.317 --> 00:04:17.807
And yeah, I mean then obviously sort of lots of creator own things.
00:04:17.836 --> 00:04:18.947
Um, you.
00:04:19.711 --> 00:04:24.841
uh, we work with some amazing creators whose, whose work I'd read before we started working with them.
00:04:24.841 --> 00:04:36.512
And it's just really, really exciting to, to then go from having been a fan essentially, to be able to, you know, be sat across the table from, from people whose, whose work I've, I've loved for a long time.
00:04:36.512 --> 00:04:37.922
So, yeah, it's,
00:04:38.026 --> 00:04:38.536
Manage that.
00:04:38.586 --> 00:04:39.997
this is tips for me as a podcaster.
00:04:40.057 --> 00:04:48.067
How do you manage your excitement when there's someone that you generally, like having a total fan moment over and then you meet them in real life and have to talk to them on a professional basis?
00:04:48.276 --> 00:04:49.086
How do you manage that
00:04:49.701 --> 00:04:50.721
Um, well, I think
00:04:50.766 --> 00:04:51.726
go, ah, I love you.
00:04:53.122 --> 00:04:58.942
I think you, well, I mean, I dunno, it's sort of, you don't want to scare the horses so you don't want to go kind of full.
00:04:58.942 --> 00:04:59.632
Ah, I love you.
00:04:59.637 --> 00:05:11.632
But I, I think it's okay to say it because actually I think there's something really nice about people being appreciated and you know, if it is someone whose work meant a lot to you, I think it is absolutely fine to say it.
00:05:11.901 --> 00:05:12.322
And.
00:05:12.485 --> 00:05:15.875
you have to kind of take a step back and go, okay, but actually you are a person too.
00:05:16.295 --> 00:05:21.901
you know, you're not just the person who, created this, this amazing story, which I love with all my heart.
00:05:22.002 --> 00:05:29.562
You know, here we are, we are just two people having a conversation and let's just, let's just have that conversation and you know, how you're doing today.
00:05:29.591 --> 00:05:30.732
You know, that sort of stuff.
00:05:30.978 --> 00:05:34.261
I think you the first person to mention peanuts on the podcast.
00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.110
Which I have a real soft spot.
00:05:37.110 --> 00:05:44.021
My dad also is a Peanuts fan and would make parallels between the Lucy and Peanuts and me, which I refute.
00:05:44.440 --> 00:05:46.630
Uh, still to this day it's not the case at all.
00:05:46.971 --> 00:05:48.201
So that's definitely.
00:05:48.550 --> 00:05:53.050
Something that I associate with my kind of family heritage in comics in a way.
00:05:53.261 --> 00:05:57.040
And it is really nice to have those kind of timeless, I would say.
00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:07.940
I mean, I'm sure there's, from a storytelling perspective, Sonic is still very good, but it, that, that's got, that Sonic seems so nineties doesn't, it seems so rooted in that kind of era.
00:06:08.271 --> 00:06:12.761
Whereas, peanuts seems to have more of a longevity and a kind of timelessness about it.
00:06:12.821 --> 00:06:13.810
Yeah, it does.
00:06:13.810 --> 00:06:19.161
Although, I guess what I would say is that, as with everything, it depends on the perspective you bring to it.
00:06:19.670 --> 00:06:30.651
So I sort of feel with Sonic in those kind of comics, particularly because it was being made in the uk, I think the perspective of the creators on it was a little bit more.
00:06:30.809 --> 00:06:37.408
Well, we've been given this property, which obviously is hideously nineties and based on a video game, which doesn't really have that much
00:06:37.574 --> 00:06:39.163
Gloriously nineties.
00:06:39.163 --> 00:06:40.244
Gloriously nineties.
00:06:40.499 --> 00:06:54.959
Yeah, and I think they all just took the attitude, let's, let's tell the kind of stories we wanted to do in, in the same way that you had sort of Grant Morrison doing zoids and you know, then going off and reinventing Batman and Superman.
00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.959
And I think you've got these British creator.
00:06:58.449 --> 00:07:12.363
Who take these properties, which are kind of highly commercial, highly, sort of, you know, constructed almost around a, a set of other things and then bringing them into a sort of sensibility that feels much more, focused.
00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:20.028
How can we make people care about this thing in the way that we do, and how can we make it feel like it really matters?
00:07:20.259 --> 00:07:33.728
And you might think that that's a little bit sort of trite, but I kind of think you have to have a certain naivety when you are telling stories that you have to go, okay, so this this thing which I really care about, how can I.
00:07:35.124 --> 00:07:37.584
Everyone who's reading this cared just as much as me.
00:07:37.584 --> 00:07:43.283
And I think that's in some ways the kind of fundamental question of, you know, how you make things good.
00:07:43.353 --> 00:07:48.124
You are the storyteller in the market square and it almost doesn't matter what story you are telling.
00:07:48.783 --> 00:07:55.024
The way you tell it is the thing that's going to make people go, oh, Oh, hmm.
00:07:55.084 --> 00:07:58.413
You know, all of those kind of noises about like, oh, I'm, I'm suddenly invested.
00:07:58.413 --> 00:07:59.314
I suddenly care.
00:07:59.314 --> 00:08:01.473
I've suddenly got all of my focuses on you.
00:08:01.983 --> 00:08:06.783
And I think that's the power of great stories, and it almost doesn't matter what form they take, you know?
00:08:09.374 --> 00:08:21.283
how do you manage that in terms of you've, I know when we talk, We talked a lot to librarians and different people who are doing a lot of professional reading, which obviously you in your job as well, would do a lot of professional reading.
00:08:21.524 --> 00:08:22.233
How do.
00:08:22.434 --> 00:08:31.033
Sort of carve out that space for yourself as a reader to have that moment of wonder and being drawn into the story or, or is that very much part of your professional day-to-day as well?
00:08:31.524 --> 00:08:32.823
It absolutely is.
00:08:32.923 --> 00:08:38.563
And I don't think the two things are sort of, I don't think the two things are not connected.
00:08:38.563 --> 00:08:41.354
You know, I think you have to have that wonder in this, in this sort of job.
00:08:41.783 --> 00:08:42.563
Because.
00:08:42.563 --> 00:08:46.344
as a human being, the thing that you have the most of really is time.
00:08:46.403 --> 00:08:48.594
You know, what do you want to spend all of your time doing?
00:08:48.594 --> 00:08:52.703
And really you want to be spending your time doing something you really care about.
00:08:53.063 --> 00:08:59.094
Um, and so I have those wonder about stories, and that's one of the reasons why I do this job.
00:08:59.413 --> 00:09:03.344
so if you are working on something and I'm reading something for work.
00:09:03.443 --> 00:09:06.604
I'm hoping that it will give me that sense of wonder when I'm reading it.
00:09:06.984 --> 00:09:12.443
And then you can step back and be a little bit more critical of going, okay, why isn't it doing that?
00:09:12.563 --> 00:09:17.734
What things about it are meaning that, this story is you know, it's being a bit baggy in the middle.
00:09:17.734 --> 00:09:18.874
Where did I lose interest?
00:09:18.874 --> 00:09:21.183
Why did I stop kind of feeling as invested?
00:09:21.604 --> 00:09:25.899
What happened to this character who suddenly, seems to have been forgotten for three chapters?
00:09:25.948 --> 00:09:27.658
What are the questions that I'm asking?
00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:37.809
but I think, that's the difference a little bit between trying to dissect something academically and trying to edit something in this kind of way, which is.
00:09:39.394 --> 00:09:47.684
You know, at the end of the day, the question you are asking is, not so much trying to analyze the techniques or take apart the text in an academic way.
00:09:48.254 --> 00:09:55.154
It's much more about trying to, say, how does this make me feel and is it making me.
00:09:56.144 --> 00:10:00.375
The sort of things that the story is demanding that I feel.
00:10:00.554 --> 00:10:11.668
And if the answer is no, but the story is still demanding it, then what kind of questions actually do I want to ask the author, which might help prompt them to, go back in rework something.
00:10:11.908 --> 00:10:17.572
And then the other skill that I think you have to have a little bit as an editor is, have a memory like a goldfish.
00:10:17.572 --> 00:10:21.173
I'm terrible at remembering the things that happened in previous drafts when I read a new one.
00:10:21.572 --> 00:10:28.471
I'll absolutely be reading something for the 12th time and I just, I won't remember what was in sort of draft seven or draft eight.
00:10:28.476 --> 00:10:30.662
I'm trying to come to something a bit fresh.
00:10:30.662 --> 00:10:34.081
I'm trying to be the new reader, looking at something going, okay.
00:10:35.341 --> 00:10:37.761
And then you meet the story on its own terms, and.
00:10:37.788 --> 00:10:41.028
You can kind of see how that version makes you feel.
00:10:43.787 --> 00:10:52.706
So I think it's really useful is context, just for people listening who myself included, I'm not really sure what the day-to-day role of a commissioning editor would be.
00:10:52.706 --> 00:10:56.236
What, is there anything you've given us a real flavor of the purpose.
00:10:56.317 --> 00:11:01.017
is there anything you can add to that in terms of, you know, what does your role actually sort of entail more broadly?
00:11:01.726 --> 00:11:03.586
So I, I think.
00:11:03.849 --> 00:11:07.989
There's a process that happens with books, but obviously you're doing this with lots of different books at once.
00:11:08.349 --> 00:11:14.678
So essentially you are looking at, here are the things that people would like us to publish on submission.
00:11:15.048 --> 00:11:17.058
Which of these things would we like to publish?
00:11:17.168 --> 00:11:33.424
And then you are hopefully convincing the company that that is something that you want to take forward and that everyone can get excited about, and you try and transmit your own excitement and get them excited about the story and then, you are working with the authors, to develop it.
00:11:33.455 --> 00:11:40.174
And so that might involve starting with the first draft and then meeting with the authors.
00:11:40.225 --> 00:11:47.284
Talking to them about fundamentally what do they want their story to be about, I guess.
00:11:47.284 --> 00:11:49.085
But really, where's the heart of their story?
00:11:49.085 --> 00:11:51.784
What are the things about their story that they care about the most?
00:11:51.835 --> 00:11:52.884
And then how can.
00:11:54.990 --> 00:11:59.549
help the story to be showing off all of those elements in its best possible way.
00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:02.399
And, you know, the stories will demand that themselves.
00:12:02.429 --> 00:12:12.919
You can sort of get a little bit mystical about this, but stories are an intangible thing where like the story themselves will suggest to you, actually, this is really what I'm about.
00:12:13.309 --> 00:12:24.611
And it's a, a process of working together with the author to help identify what those things are, and then sending the author off and they'll go away and, and rewrite, and then send it back in.
00:12:24.611 --> 00:12:28.839
And then you keep those conversations going until, you've arrived at the final version.
00:12:28.938 --> 00:12:36.619
On the other side of it, it's also sort of, getting very, uh, sort of technical on.
00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:51.999
Proofread or writing the blurb or doing all of the, kind of like helping turn the thing that you have in front of you that's been made by the author, by the writer, by the artist, and doing all of the steps that need to turn it into a book.
00:12:51.999 --> 00:12:57.899
So that's working with designers, working with, production, working with, all sorts of wonderful people.
00:12:57.899 --> 00:12:59.729
And it's a very collaborative process.
00:12:59.798 --> 00:13:00.849
Helping to turn.
00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:06.999
This intangible story, first of all, down into something written by the author in the way that they want it to be.
00:13:07.489 --> 00:13:09.589
And that's the very best version of what it can be.
00:13:09.678 --> 00:13:14.208
And then turning that into something that can exist on the shelves in Waterstones.
00:13:14.442 --> 00:13:18.511
when I was listening to you talk then I was thinking, well, as a teacher, when I was.
00:13:18.910 --> 00:13:22.874
Marking or working with children to edit and improve their writing.
00:13:23.083 --> 00:13:27.134
I'm generally not in having conversations about what the heart of their story is.
00:13:27.384 --> 00:13:34.573
It's more of a proofreading job, or it's about creating a writing product really that meets a certain criteria of the curriculum in, in many cases.
00:13:34.573 --> 00:13:37.244
Cause it's not really just sort of writing for pleasure a lot of the time in school.
00:13:37.453 --> 00:13:51.869
But I do think there, there might be parallels in terms of how to best guide people through what can be a difficult process of accepting feedback, of thinking about how to improve something that they've already put a lot of work into and the emotional attachment to that we have to our own creative output, I guess.
00:13:52.543 --> 00:13:53.683
Oh, massively.
00:13:53.683 --> 00:13:59.188
And you know, I think that, That's part of being a human who makes something, you know?
00:13:59.499 --> 00:14:06.589
if you don't feel attached to what you've made, then, that might suggest that it's not something you're as invested in as, as you might need to be.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:25.923
I guess the way I would suggest approaching it, I mean, teachers, teachers know this already, but it's, it's, you ask the questions, it's, you know, it's encouraging that, Process of taking that step back from the thing that you've made yourself and, and helping them to read it as if someone else had written it.
00:14:26.374 --> 00:14:34.384
And then asking, you know, what would they think about it or what are the things that they think are working in teacher's case for the criteria?
00:14:34.573 --> 00:14:38.474
And what are the things that they don't and can they identify those?
00:14:38.573 --> 00:14:51.124
And you know, I think if you've managed to get that little bit of distance, it's really, really valuable because essentially sort of writing is, is the turning of the idea of what's in your head into something tangible.
00:14:51.140 --> 00:14:58.280
Rewriting is the process of making it as good as it can possibly be, and I think you have to sort of acknowledge both parts of that process.
00:14:58.681 --> 00:15:02.181
Otherwise, you're only going to be able to get so far because.
00:15:02.946 --> 00:15:13.272
you know, there may well be, a number of geniuses who can be right first time with everything that they make, and they can construct something which absolutely works in every single way without needing to go back over it.
00:15:13.272 --> 00:15:15.942
But I don't think that's true for, for most people.
00:15:15.942 --> 00:15:16.961
It's certainly not for me.
00:15:17.081 --> 00:15:27.355
And so I think what you want to do is be able to see what you are doing both as a mode of self-expression, but also, part of a process.
00:15:27.929 --> 00:15:30.955
and that the first draft is only the first step in that process.
00:15:31.365 --> 00:15:43.294
And that by the end of that process, hopefully what you've got is something that you can feel not just immensely proud of, but even more proud of than you would've done had you stopped at, at step one.
00:15:43.631 --> 00:15:44.065
Yeah.
00:15:44.095 --> 00:15:55.269
I, I think there is, there is something around that, that, it is about a process I found it really useful an eye-opening for children that when they find out that, you know, famous authors, they are going through the same process as well.
00:15:55.269 --> 00:15:59.259
It isn't about this thing you did isn't good enough, it's that it's not finished.
00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:04.240
Cuz you, this is the process that we go through is that you, you have a first draft and then you, you know, you revisit.
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:05.649
And I think sometimes we just.
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:11.480
In the school timetable, you're kind of writing one day and editing it and improving it the next, and then you're onto something else.
00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:27.282
There's not actually any time for you to have distance from it, I've found it really valuable, the following term to go, well, let's just dip back into some of our writing that we did a few weeks ago, because then they, it is easier a little bit to have that kind of distance from what you've done and be able to see it with fresh eyes, I guess.
00:16:27.282 --> 00:16:36.976
Is that something, is it quite a tight timeframe often in the publishing world or, Is there an opportunity for creators to have that bit of distance from what they've
00:16:37.147 --> 00:16:39.756
I think the honest answer is it depends on what's being made.
00:16:40.226 --> 00:16:45.326
But I think that what you try and do is you try and build that in as much as you can.
00:16:45.807 --> 00:16:55.966
So, the process can be, particularly if, you've got a, a series being produced, that there will be a sort of imperative there to try and.
00:16:56.236 --> 00:17:07.307
Publish regularly because what you're trying to do is, you know, you've got readers really excited about book one and book two, and so book three might have a little bit more pressure on it to be delivered in a certain amount of time.
00:17:07.307 --> 00:17:17.096
But I also think that's not really the best way to be thinking about it, because ultimately what you want to do is you want to also be leaving your readers as satisfied as possible.
00:17:17.426 --> 00:17:28.106
I think on the flip side, I think there is definitely, a real vital importance in giving authors space to, to really hone their, their story.
00:17:28.207 --> 00:17:39.196
We published at the end of last year, an amazing book, absolutely stunning book called Tyger By SF Said, with some brilliant illustrations by Dave McKeean.
00:17:39.257 --> 00:17:43.207
And, SF had been working on that novel.
00:17:43.807 --> 00:17:46.116
For best part of nine years.
00:17:46.207 --> 00:17:52.356
And that was an enormous number of versions and redrafting and, and all of that.
00:17:52.356 --> 00:18:09.307
And, you know, there were things that he discovered in sort of version 10 of the story, which suddenly elevated the whole thing because, you know, if you can have that space and time, You have the ability to suddenly see all of the potential in your story.
00:18:09.307 --> 00:18:17.047
And obviously as an editor, that's the kind of thing you are, you are there to sort of ask questions, which hopefully prompt those answers.
00:18:17.436 --> 00:18:25.344
But the stories belong to the authors and it's about them sort of realizing that I'm even better than I thought I was.
00:18:25.433 --> 00:18:30.624
You know, suddenly all of these things are in, in this idea, which I've already had, and.
00:18:31.374 --> 00:18:42.023
Suddenly if I change this name here or I change this concept here and I just move things a little bit, it reframes the entire, the entire story and everything just glows that bit more.
00:18:42.243 --> 00:18:46.449
So, yes, I think, in certain cases there is time.
00:18:46.449 --> 00:18:47.709
In certain cases there aren't.
00:18:47.808 --> 00:18:55.308
you know, speaking about comics as well, obviously, at D F B we have a, a really close partnership with the Phoenix comic.
00:18:55.368 --> 00:18:57.558
And I also work on the Phoenix as well.
00:18:57.749 --> 00:19:00.028
The Phoenix is an anthology comic.
00:19:00.028 --> 00:19:02.429
32 pages, full color comes out every single.
00:19:03.118 --> 00:19:07.769
And because it's every single week of the year and there are 32 pages that need to be
00:19:07.773 --> 00:19:08.673
has a lot of space
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.189
um, there is a lot of space to fill and there's an anthology.
00:19:11.189 --> 00:19:17.939
So some, some comics, you know, Jamie Smarts, bunny versus Monkey will be two pages in, uh, the Phoenix that week.
00:19:18.229 --> 00:19:21.953
There'll be other comics that will be four pages, maybe six pages.
00:19:22.203 --> 00:19:31.913
and some will be one pages or some will be sort of three panel shorts, but it's a juggling act with that because obviously you need to be providing a lot of material every single week.
00:19:31.913 --> 00:19:41.213
And so ideally what you want to do is have everything done well in advance, but you are always trying to make sure that, there will be a comic for all of the subscribers and readers, on a Friday.
00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:43.055
That brings other pressures as well.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.089
yeah, for sure.
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.390
and David Fickling books has been Well known for, its graphic novels.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.720
has that always been part of the David Fickling mission?
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:57.140
Is that kind of central to it or is it just something that's developed over time is that something that's evolved because of the Phoenix?
00:19:57.140 --> 00:20:00.619
I'm just interested in that relationship and the kind of the flow between the two.
00:20:00.730 --> 00:20:00.930
I.
00:20:01.474 --> 00:20:07.255
I think David has always been incredibly passionate about, about children's comics, and particularly anthology comics.
00:20:07.315 --> 00:20:11.085
So, back in 2008, 2009, there.
00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:20.358
David launched the D ffc, which was a sort of forerunner of the Phoenix, that he put together, while he was running the company.
00:20:20.449 --> 00:20:27.108
David Fickling books, which is now independent and has been independent since 2013, but at that time was an imprint of Random House.
00:20:27.209 --> 00:20:32.574
And so the D FFC was a sort of first run at this, so this was always something that David was incredibly passionate about.
00:20:33.084 --> 00:20:41.943
And then obviously the financial crash of 2008 hit the Phoenix was a, a wonderful opportunity to sort of relaunch, as an independent company.
00:20:41.949 --> 00:20:52.233
And, that has been going, going strong since 2012 and since the beginning of D F B as an independent company, we've been publishing, graphic novels using.
00:20:52.858 --> 00:20:54.378
the material created by the Phoenix.
00:20:54.378 --> 00:20:59.378
So in the sort of early days, we used to do a reduced, A4 size.
00:20:59.378 --> 00:21:01.058
So the Phoenix is produced a day, four size.
00:21:01.058 --> 00:21:05.038
We would take, the strips from the phoenix and bundle'em up.
00:21:05.473 --> 00:21:10.034
do some work to them to make them work a bit better as a book, and then we'd bring them out into the market.
00:21:10.453 --> 00:21:27.499
And what's happened in the last kind of few years is that the, success of comics like Dav Pilkey's Dog Man, Raina Telgemeir's Smile and things like that, essentially showed book sellers by pure volume of sales that there.
00:21:28.594 --> 00:21:51.844
This massive audience that we always knew was there because we always knew that kids love comics, and since we started reformatting the graphic novels in 2020, we were sort of able to, you know, come along to a, to a bookshop situation, which was now willing to shelve graphic novels alongside.
00:21:52.739 --> 00:21:53.209
children's fiction.
00:21:53.398 --> 00:22:08.699
And I think that's been just wonderful because I think, you know, with Bunny Versus Monkey, which has been enormously successful, so Jamie Smart's sort of brilliant, brilliant now quite long running series of seven books that are out in the, in the market at the moment.
00:22:09.209 --> 00:22:11.608
You know, book eight will be coming out at the end of this year.
00:22:11.909 --> 00:22:14.628
That is, fantastic for lots of reasons.
00:22:14.628 --> 00:22:18.048
One was that we always knew this was amazing and brilliant and suddenly.
00:22:19.189 --> 00:22:26.328
That and, and the other, Phoenix graphic novels, finding much bigger and more successful audiences, is fantastic.
00:22:26.328 --> 00:22:33.969
But I think, the bookshops were sort of primed to shelve them in the main children's section in a way that I think has, really opened that door.
00:22:34.028 --> 00:22:35.169
it's been really exciting.
00:22:35.348 --> 00:22:51.098
In terms of the two companies, we obviously work incredibly closely together and it's meant that we've had, in the case of Money versus Monkey, Jamie Smart has been doing two pages every single week for about 10 years, which means that if one year's worth.
00:22:51.804 --> 00:22:54.864
Bunny versus monkey can make one new format book.
00:22:55.374 --> 00:23:07.814
We've been in a very advantageous publishing position where we had all of this material and we were sort of now able to, get it into the hands of, of kids in a format that the bookshops were excited to sell.
00:23:07.874 --> 00:23:10.963
And we've just seen it go from, from strength to strength to strength.
00:23:10.963 --> 00:23:13.453
So it's been, it's been very, very exciting.
00:23:13.494 --> 00:23:31.674
You mentioned Dav Pilkey and Raina Telgemeier and people I've been speaking to on the podcast will mention Jamie Smart and, Alice Oseman as the kind of English versions that their popularity of both Bunny versus monkey and Heart Stopper has really been instrumental in Kickstarting what they hope to be.
00:23:31.914 --> 00:23:36.359
Graphic novels and comics becoming more mainstream, mirroring what's happened in America.
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:48.309
it's, I think we always knew that kids love comics because we knew that, um, you know, storytelling in all forms is, something incredibly special.
00:23:48.309 --> 00:23:51.579
And, the ways in which you receive stories work.
00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:59.029
You know, differently for different people, but I think there's just a sort of openness and, accessibility about comics, which is, which is incredibly exciting.
00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:03.019
I think that, both with Jamie and with Alice Osman.
00:24:03.349 --> 00:24:24.660
I think that, it's brilliant seeing them have the success that they have and obviously, you know, we hope to build on that and we know how amazing all of the other creators we have working with us are, and, developing that space for children's graphic novels within the uk but also, worldwide, you know, is absolutely.
00:24:25.525 --> 00:24:27.569
part of what, what our mission really is.
00:24:27.619 --> 00:24:29.829
We have, a really exciting moment here.
00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:38.750
And I think that, it basically wanting to get this wonderful work into the hands of as many kids as, as we possibly can because we know that they'll love it.
00:24:38.910 --> 00:24:42.720
And I think that, that's been proved by, by Jamie's success.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:43.890
all of it comes back to Jamie.
00:24:43.890 --> 00:24:44.220
Really.
00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:50.980
Jamie is an absolutely incredible creator, one of the hardest workers that I've ever come across.
00:24:51.069 --> 00:24:58.599
And he is just an absolute genius at understanding what children love and what makes them laugh.
00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:05.839
And, none of this success happens without a creator as skillful, talented, and, and brilliant as he is.
00:25:05.957 --> 00:25:10.951
And it turns out that once you've solved the shelving problem, a lot of things can follow.
00:25:10.951 --> 00:25:14.132
So having the books in the right format was, was absolutely step one.
00:25:14.582 --> 00:25:25.112
But it's also worth saying how supportive Waterstones have been, and I think it's enormously to their credit, that they were willing to really get behind children's graphic novels.
00:25:25.321 --> 00:25:29.912
And I think without Waterstone's support, it wouldn't have got to where it.
00:25:30.592 --> 00:25:52.201
but also, um, has been an enormous amount of hard work on the part of, in particular people like Villa, our sales director and Fraser Hutchinson, our PR manager, who have put an enormous amount of effort and energy and thought and creativity into how to get these books to market in the right kind of way.
00:25:52.862 --> 00:25:56.972
And of course, you've got the Phoenix and, uh, built-in audience of.
00:25:57.662 --> 00:26:04.922
Receptive kids who already love Bunny versus monkey love, Jamie Smart, and they're sort of primed to, to go great guns for it as well.
00:26:04.922 --> 00:26:18.991
But I think definitely when you've got something that starts well can build and you can publish repeatedly, you can create a snowball effect, which in the case of Bunny versus monkey, has just been incredibly gratifying to see.
00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:19.471
Yeah.
00:26:19.471 --> 00:26:20.040
Here, here.
00:26:22.949 --> 00:26:27.104
As a publisher, do you focus, mostly on, reading for pleasure?
00:26:27.233 --> 00:26:36.634
I think that that's where definitely in terms of schools, that's where 10 to see comics and graphic novels sitting in this, it's quite firmly in the reading for pleasure.
00:26:36.753 --> 00:26:41.628
Not so much embedded in the curriculum though, though there, obviously there are lots of cases of schools doing that, but it's not widespread.
00:26:42.183 --> 00:26:48.663
It's kind of, if you've got one passionate member of staff who's confident and wants to give it a go, then, then you are seeing comics in the classroom.
00:26:48.814 --> 00:26:50.763
If not, it tends to be in the library.
00:26:50.794 --> 00:26:52.263
In, in the sort of reading for pleasure.
00:26:52.683 --> 00:26:56.523
Is that something that also you would like to see more of or is that something that you are interested.
00:26:57.084 --> 00:27:04.284
in supporting teachers to do, to actually use the comics, or graphic novels in the classroom space and sort of curriculum delivery more.
00:27:04.327 --> 00:27:04.958
Absolutely.
00:27:05.127 --> 00:27:13.393
I think that, It's also about what's the right sort of, start for a conversation, you know?
00:27:13.452 --> 00:27:21.143
because I think there are certain comics that, are definitely brilliant at starting those sort of conversations.
00:27:21.143 --> 00:27:27.678
So, we published an amazing graphic novel by Patrice Aggs and Joe Brady called No Country, which is,
00:27:28.038 --> 00:27:31.508
I've actually just very recently reread that, in the last couple of weeks.
00:27:31.557 --> 00:27:32.907
So it's very fresh in my mind.
00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:33.828
Oh, fantastic.
00:27:33.828 --> 00:27:39.259
And that's kind of an inversion of a, um, a Civil War story.
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:52.753
It's a, a story about a civil war kind of raging in, in the uk and this family, these two sisters and their younger brother and their dad, trying to live a normal life sort of in the middle of this, restricted near war zone.
00:27:52.804 --> 00:27:53.943
And I think.
00:27:54.558 --> 00:27:57.108
Kind of book is a brilliant conversation starter.
00:27:57.108 --> 00:28:16.048
I also think that Neill Cameron does the most amazing work, with Mega Robo Bros, is an incredibly, exciting, thrilling, moving, powerful, but also very subtle the thing that Neil is so good at is taking this format, which is about these two brother.
00:28:16.778 --> 00:28:27.203
Alex and Freddy, who are robots and who have all of your sort of brotherly scuffles and fights and things, but also, as well as big adventures where they get to punch giant robots.
00:28:27.413 --> 00:28:38.574
He's also looking at what does it mean to be a robot who doesn't necessarily have, for example, a fixed gender or what does it mean to be, different?
00:28:38.634 --> 00:28:41.574
And I think using those sort of.
00:28:42.368 --> 00:28:48.118
You know, story, ideas and then really drilling down into what does that then mean?
00:28:48.358 --> 00:28:57.689
You know, I think is a wonderful way to sort of present some really, interesting, fascinating, intensely human ideas to kids.
00:28:58.098 --> 00:29:01.548
And I think would be wonderful conversation starters in a, in a classroom.
00:29:02.148 --> 00:29:14.878
I think it also becomes a question then of, What's the kind of overall framework of the class and I think that what Neil does is so brilliant because it is an incredibly pleasurable read and it's really really fun.
00:29:14.878 --> 00:29:16.199
It's just really, really fun.
00:29:16.278 --> 00:29:24.108
I think basically there's lots of brilliant things in all of the comic books that we, we try and, and try and make.
00:29:24.108 --> 00:29:26.959
But I think primarily, our audiences.
00:29:27.364 --> 00:29:28.384
Is the readers.
00:29:28.413 --> 00:29:33.364
It's, you know, first of all the subscribers to the Phoenix, and then it's the audience for all of the, the books.
00:29:33.423 --> 00:29:43.114
And I think that, um, you know, it's, you want to kind of spark people's imagination and that can go in all sorts of different directions.
00:29:43.473 --> 00:29:47.828
But in order to do that, you want to give them material that that can really matter to them.
00:29:48.128 --> 00:30:03.306
And I think anything that matters to you can be an object of discussion in a classroom because I think that means that you are thinking about it properly and that means that you are engaging with it in a way that, will spark further thought and can spark further conversation.
00:30:05.357 --> 00:30:08.538
How do you, pitch and set your kind of age ranges?
00:30:08.538 --> 00:30:12.232
Because things like, Neill's Mega Robo series.
00:30:12.232 --> 00:30:21.623
They've got, actually got quite, and I would just think something like Jamie Smart, you've got a real broad range of appeal and lots of different layers there that could be accessed to lots of different ages.
00:30:21.903 --> 00:30:29.002
I just wonder how you go about sort of where you're gonna pitch those books, for what age range and how you make sure that you've kind of tailoring that content.
00:30:30.343 --> 00:30:40.972
Well, I guess what I would say is that you have to have a, duty of care to the children that are going to be reading the books that you publish, or the comic that you publish.
00:30:41.032 --> 00:30:52.542
And so it's about making sure that, you aren't sort of breaching that duty of care in a way that is going to be upsetting in a way that isn't, isn't appropriate, if you see what I mean.
00:30:52.932 --> 00:31:02.958
Within that though, I don't think that age ranging in that kind of way is, is sort of enormously helpful in the sense because that's sort of a publishing problem, right?
00:31:02.958 --> 00:31:04.698
In the, in the making of it.
00:31:04.998 --> 00:31:06.438
I don't think you need to be too.
00:31:07.173 --> 00:31:10.663
Stringent about, things like complexity of language.
00:31:10.772 --> 00:31:19.702
I think in all of them, and I would absolutely include Jamie Smart in this Laura Anderson who does Evil Penguin, James Turner and Yasmin Shake, star Cat has some very complex.
00:31:20.772 --> 00:31:21.653
Language in it as well.
00:31:21.873 --> 00:31:41.462
But I think you frame that kind of stuff in context and so that if a reader is encountering a word, which they don't know yet, you can have that as an exciting thing because if you are framing it in the context of a comic panel where the reader can see what is going on visually, that actually helps to kind of.
00:31:42.488 --> 00:31:46.627
Their ability to understand what this word really means.
00:31:46.728 --> 00:31:49.248
And so then obviously if they want to go and look it up later, they can.
00:31:49.248 --> 00:31:52.097
But if they just want to move past it and go onto the next thing, that's fine.
00:31:52.307 --> 00:31:54.228
But they've, they've encountered a new word.
00:31:54.228 --> 00:31:58.907
They can internalize that word and then, um, you know, you can help sort of.
00:31:59.135 --> 00:32:05.165
Very subtly, stretch their reading ability or like push them a little bit further.
00:32:05.165 --> 00:32:07.115
And I don't think we need to be afraid of that.
00:32:07.425 --> 00:32:16.490
I think kids are really good at, at sort of self-censoring, both when they encounter sort of words which are a bit more complicated or, or ideas that are a little bit more complicated.
00:32:16.760 --> 00:32:26.050
I think kids are brilliant at, taking the, the kind of the ideas and the tone and things like that, that they really connect to.
00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:29.931
So again, with Neill's Mega Robo Bros you've got Alex, who's the older.
00:32:30.625 --> 00:32:31.256
the older robot.
00:32:31.256 --> 00:32:35.246
And then you've got Freddy, who's the younger one, and Freddy is an absolute ball of energy.
00:32:35.276 --> 00:32:42.076
He's a huge kind of whirlwind of, wanting to punch everything and just enthusiasm and massive ego.
00:32:42.076 --> 00:32:46.875
You know, he's your absolute nine year old who's kind of standing up on all the tables, waiting his arms going, look at me.
00:32:47.205 --> 00:32:47.566
You know?
00:32:47.935 --> 00:32:52.915
And I think if you are that kind of hyperactive younger kid, you'll absolutely hone in on the Freddie moment.
00:32:53.556 --> 00:33:05.756
And Neil did a brilliant job, of writing three amazing illustrated fiction books, all about Freddy, which have that real energetic voice to them that are just, they're fantastic books.
00:33:06.175 --> 00:33:12.286
If you're a slightly older kid, you might connect a bit more with Alex, who's a little bit more, kind of internal.
00:33:12.336 --> 00:33:17.036
He is more questioning about, all of the decisions that you have to make as a, as a.
00:33:17.800 --> 00:33:25.611
Person growing up in the world, and how you want to be seen and how you want to kind of connect to other people.
00:33:25.691 --> 00:33:29.500
And you'll hone in a little bit more on those, those sort of moments.
00:33:29.601 --> 00:33:33.770
And so, what you try and do is you try and create books that.
00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:39.855
giving readers of all ages, something to kind of hook into, and something to enjoy
00:33:40.181 --> 00:33:47.090
And do you think of a parent at the same time as that like the experience of shared reading in the home we see, in cartoons on, the tv.
00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:51.010
Sometimes you can see really clearly that kind of, that, that line was for the parent.
00:33:51.611 --> 00:33:59.503
Kind of, um, aside, is that, is is really less less of that what's your approach to thinking about Adults also accessing the texts,
00:34:00.259 --> 00:34:02.388
um, I mean, I think that it.
00:34:02.708 --> 00:34:03.278
to an extent.
00:34:03.278 --> 00:34:15.878
It depends a little bit on the text, but I think that fundamentally you are trying to make something that is, exciting, interesting, meaningful, that has sort of emotion to it as well.
00:34:15.878 --> 00:34:20.648
And I think if you've done that job well, then that doesn't need to be age restricted.
00:34:20.648 --> 00:34:21.608
It doesn't matter what age you are.
00:34:21.608 --> 00:34:22.027
So if you're a
00:34:22.057 --> 00:34:23.737
It works cuz it works for humans,
00:34:23.882 --> 00:34:24.336
Exactly.
00:34:24.516 --> 00:34:25.025
Yeah.
00:34:25.025 --> 00:34:26.409
It's, that's a hundred percent it.
00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:28.119
You make the story work as a story.
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:39.969
You make the story work for humans, and then parents can share that with their, their children because hopefully what you've made is a really good story that everyone wants to read and everyone wants to, to experience.
00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:45.719
And it doesn't matter what age you are, I think, within something like the Phoenix as well, because you have that little bit.
00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:48.030
Variety of comics.
00:34:48.030 --> 00:34:54.420
I think that there are certain things, so for example, the Fates and fortunes choose your own adventure stories will sometimes
00:34:54.824 --> 00:34:55.905
I really love those.
00:34:56.632 --> 00:34:57.827
I am also a cheat when I do that.
00:34:58.836 --> 00:35:02.527
I do, I totally look ahead to see which is the right way to go.
00:35:03.202 --> 00:35:03.762
You cheat.
00:35:03.818 --> 00:35:05.228
Oh, I can't believe that.
00:35:05.318 --> 00:35:07.077
Oh, That's terrible.
00:35:07.248 --> 00:35:07.597
No.
00:35:07.777 --> 00:35:09.128
That's not kind of low life.
00:35:09.128 --> 00:35:09.547
I am
00:35:12.213 --> 00:35:12.358
No.
00:35:12.358 --> 00:35:13.228
Here's the secret.
00:35:13.498 --> 00:35:14.878
I think Cheating's Okay.
00:35:15.177 --> 00:35:16.648
I think it's fine on that.
00:35:16.927 --> 00:35:21.338
because the whole point of a choose your own adventure is you want to see what all of the different endings can be.
00:35:21.338 --> 00:35:21.998
And I think.
00:35:23.137 --> 00:35:24.367
It's, it's great.
00:35:24.648 --> 00:35:32.027
But also I think within those we use a little bit more elevated language because I think we know that quite a lot of parents are reading those with their kids.
00:35:32.538 --> 00:35:38.818
And so there's an, an opportunity there to sort of introduce slightly more complex tonal language that is really fun.
00:35:39.592 --> 00:35:43.882
But I think is, is kind of going to be more of that sort of shared experience.
00:35:43.963 --> 00:35:45.132
So yeah.
00:35:45.132 --> 00:35:52.632
But I mean, overall what you want to do is you want to make good stuff and then people will want to read it and then it doesn't matter what age they are, they'll
00:35:52.802 --> 00:35:53.163
Yeah.
00:35:53.253 --> 00:35:54.393
Yeah, that's so true.
00:35:55.023 --> 00:35:57.393
And we are coming to towards the end.
00:35:57.393 --> 00:36:09.802
I do just wanted to ask you, you mentioned, Neil Cameron's middle grade fictions, illustrated fiction as well, and I was interested in, someone had asked me the other day, so they were getting questions around, how'd you move children on from comics and graphic novels and.
00:36:10.262 --> 00:36:19.172
Almost suggested, oh, and then I thought, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to reinforce the just idea that children should be moved on from comics and graphic novels.
00:36:19.512 --> 00:36:25.293
But obviously often the people who create, graphic novels also create prose books.
00:36:25.322 --> 00:36:30.873
And I wondered if that that was why you have them in your collection or, where, where that kind of evolution came from.
00:36:31.052 --> 00:36:33.963
Are you seeing it as a next step or are they kind of a parallel thing?
00:36:34.449 --> 00:36:36.400
They're 100% a parallel thing.
00:36:36.570 --> 00:36:39.289
It's not about moving anyone on from anything.
00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:40.090
Comics are great.
00:36:40.844 --> 00:36:41.804
Prose books are great.
00:36:41.804 --> 00:36:43.454
Illustrated novels are great.
00:36:43.864 --> 00:36:56.045
And I think what that's a hundred percent about is that there are brilliant creators who are brilliant storytellers and it doesn't really sort of matter what form they're telling those stories in.
00:36:56.050 --> 00:37:03.954
It's another opportunity for their stories to exist in the world for potentially a different audience or, new readers who won't have heard of them.
00:37:04.539 --> 00:37:10.864
and their work, in comics, but they might discover them in books and then that will hopefully also feed back into the comics as well.
00:37:10.864 --> 00:37:12.244
And it's a real synergy there.
00:37:12.244 --> 00:37:20.974
But across, across the creator's work, I think what we care about is stories and pros, stories illustrated pros, stories.
00:37:21.905 --> 00:37:29.945
Comics are all different forms of that kind of communication of that idea of, you know, here's a character who I want you to care about.
00:37:30.215 --> 00:37:32.195
Here's a really exciting circumstance.
00:37:32.275 --> 00:37:39.204
And I think Neil is a really great example of this because he's just an absolute born storyteller and I think that.
00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:45.219
You know, for him or for Jamie who's also written, the Illustrated Flemer novels.
00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:51.260
Lauren Anderson, who I mentioned earlier, is obviously massively successful with Amelia Fang and Rainbow Gray.
00:37:51.510 --> 00:38:02.539
Jamie Littler as well, who, um, is a brilliant illustrator now, brilliant writer and illustrator also, made comics for the Phoenix quite a few years ago now.
00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:06.320
But I think there's so many people who have this real.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:13.190
Talent for, creating characters that, that we care about and writing brilliant stories.
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:16.880
And so it's just a different form for them to do that.
00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:26.976
and I think it's, it's been really exciting seeing that happen because I think that, you can see all sorts of possibilities that come out of the different forms that can kind of inform each other.
00:38:27.567 --> 00:38:29.126
I think there are certain things that come out.
00:38:30.492 --> 00:38:36.342
Constructing a, a prose story that can then feed back into the making of comics and can elevate that.
00:38:36.402 --> 00:38:45.222
And I think a lot of the skills that come from being someone who's brilliant at comics means that the type of novels you write will have certain things about them that other people can't bring to them.
00:38:45.731 --> 00:38:46.641
And so it's.
00:38:47.532 --> 00:38:54.431
You know, what are the things that make these creators really wonderful and special and really exciting to, to read?
00:38:54.532 --> 00:38:57.681
And what things can they write that no one else can write?
00:38:57.711 --> 00:39:01.072
Um, and that may turn out to be, to be a comic.
00:39:01.072 --> 00:39:02.211
It may turn out to be a novel.
00:39:02.211 --> 00:39:03.771
It can be, could be anything.
00:39:06.695 --> 00:39:17.014
Can you give us three points, two or three points that you'd like to leave us with kind of thinking points, things for educators to mull over or just summarize the things that you've been talking about today?
00:39:17.014 --> 00:39:19.835
What would you like to leave us thinking at the end of this podcast?
00:39:20.510 --> 00:39:22.101
Well, I think that.
00:39:24.335 --> 00:39:32.376
I think stories are probably the most important things that human beings have, and I think a love of reading comes from a love of stories.
00:39:32.556 --> 00:39:35.076
So it doesn't really matter what form those stories take.
00:39:35.076 --> 00:39:36.425
They are absolutely valid.
00:39:36.846 --> 00:39:39.306
And you know the question sort of.
00:39:40.146 --> 00:39:41.735
Why do you care about this?
00:39:41.735 --> 00:39:43.956
I think can apply to absolutely everything.
00:39:44.346 --> 00:39:51.666
So if kids care, if anyone cares about something, they will make an effort to try and work at it or trying to understand it.
00:39:51.965 --> 00:39:55.175
And it sort of doesn't matter what that is, but you can connect everything to stories.
00:39:55.175 --> 00:39:59.376
So if a kid is really excited about sport, is stories.
00:39:59.710 --> 00:40:00.911
Sport is storytelling.
00:40:00.940 --> 00:40:05.530
It 100% is because you've got the, the narrative of that particular football match.
00:40:05.530 --> 00:40:12.432
But you've also got the narrative of that particular player who's just come back from an injury or you've got the narrative of, you have, you actually, you've got the struggle.
00:40:12.432 --> 00:40:16.242
You've got the fact that they were two, one down at halftime, but they came back to win four, two.
00:40:16.248 --> 00:40:22.992
You know, I think all of these kind of things are stories fundamentally, and I think.
00:40:24.032 --> 00:40:26.822
People engage with stories all the way through their lives.
00:40:27.063 --> 00:40:43.652
The story about the story that you tell yourself about how your life went, the, the kind of crisis that you have in your own life when your story is interrupted, because circumstances mean that the narrative that you had planned for yourself isn't going to go the way you thought.
00:40:43.983 --> 00:40:48.693
Again, it's, it's all about stories, and I think fundamentally when you.
00:40:49.893 --> 00:40:51.362
Connecting with reading.
00:40:51.693 --> 00:41:03.213
You are connecting with story and you are connecting with the fundamental principle about how we understand the world and about the thing that makes us human and everything else.
00:41:03.242 --> 00:41:17.273
About how well the authors communicated those ideas about the language that they've used about the literate kind of ways that you can communicate ideas in more clever ways than others or whatever else, all flows from that.
00:41:17.572 --> 00:41:24.083
And I think if kids care about stories, I think they will care about life.
00:41:24.143 --> 00:41:32.452
And I think that means that the whole principle of education is encouraging, essentially.
00:41:33.083 --> 00:41:40.003
People to grow up and to become adults and, empathetic, understanding, members of the human race.
00:41:40.003 --> 00:41:44.112
And I think there is no better way of doing that than, than through story.
00:41:44.652 --> 00:41:58.492
And I think that if you are, looking at children who are sort of struggling to connect to reading, I think there are a million, million ways.
00:41:59.092 --> 00:42:04.913
Of connecting them to stories, and then from that, everything else can flow.
00:42:05.226 --> 00:42:06.306
Completely agree.
00:42:06.306 --> 00:42:11.706
That was very stirring and profound and a great thing to leave people thinking about.
00:42:11.706 --> 00:42:12.576
So thank you for that.
00:42:12.581 --> 00:42:14.076
That was superb.
00:42:14.773 --> 00:42:27.972
Final thing, I think this is gonna be very difficult for you in, in your role, uh, but can you leave us with one book, just one or comic that you would put on our to be read pile?
00:42:28.588 --> 00:42:29.547
what should we add?
00:42:29.637 --> 00:42:31.010
That you're only allowed to choose one.
00:42:31.059 --> 00:42:32.079
Only allowed to choose one.
00:42:32.135 --> 00:42:34.715
Sometimes people just completely flout that, to be frank.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:36.844
But that's that
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.079
no, no, it's fine.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:42.400
I mean, the, the cheat answer here is to say the Phoenix, um,
00:42:42.644 --> 00:42:43.045
allow it.
00:42:43.090 --> 00:42:56.065
something for everyone in it and you know, but I, and I think also professionally, I, I probably have to say the Phoenix, but I also mean it because, you know, it is, it is so, Truly magnificent and there is something for everyone in it.
00:42:56.065 --> 00:43:02.275
So I will say I, the Phoenix, and if I'm not allowed to pick the, the thing that I work on as well, I would say
00:43:02.934 --> 00:43:03.784
That is brilliant.
00:43:03.784 --> 00:43:04.235
Thank you.
00:43:04.235 --> 00:43:06.125
I would second the Phoenix.
00:43:06.125 --> 00:43:06.724
It arrived.
00:43:07.114 --> 00:43:09.065
On, it's actually still on the doormat.
00:43:09.447 --> 00:43:09.568
mine.
00:43:09.568 --> 00:43:10.248
I'm not allowed to open it.
00:43:10.637 --> 00:43:13.367
Um, but yeah, it's great excitement
00:43:13.568 --> 00:43:13.807
Right.
00:43:13.813 --> 00:43:14.108
Two
00:43:15.047 --> 00:43:18.728
great excitement when it arrives in my house every week, from me and from my children.
00:43:18.788 --> 00:43:21.518
So yes, I would second that of the Phoenix too.
00:43:21.737 --> 00:43:24.838
Thank you so much for, coming onto the podcast.
00:43:24.838 --> 00:43:25.918
It's been brilliant to hear.
00:43:26.257 --> 00:43:30.307
Really different perspective and just centering the importa.
00:43:30.773 --> 00:43:36.695
of stories has been really lovely and I feel quite energized.
00:43:36.755 --> 00:43:37.804
So thank you so much.
00:43:37.804 --> 00:43:38.795
It's been brilliant.
00:43:38.947 --> 00:43:39.608
Thank you, Lucy.
00:43:39.608 --> 00:43:40.237
It's been a real pleasure
