WEBVTT
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So if it were up to you, the the term human grade would wouldn't even be used.
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No, because it doesn't mean anything.
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It's very good.
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And like human grade human grade ingredients.
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It's a marketing term like natural, which they can stick up their ass, to be honest.
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Together, an industry disruptor.
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And renowned veterinarian discuss and debate, establish norms and new ideas in the pet world.
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This is challenging pet health.
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Aloha.
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Hey, we're together again, Clayton.
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I love it.
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And you are representing San Diego style over there with the palm trees on your California.
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I'm known for my Southern shirt.
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My Southern California flair.
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Everyone sees me and goes, you know.
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You must be a surfer, right?
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100%.
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Yeah, like the fluffy hair and the and the palm trees on my shirt.
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And the awesome British accent.
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It goes so well together.
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I love it.
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To be honest, my my awesome accent is only a US only thing.
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To be honest, the moment I'm at home, it's like it's not an awesome accent.
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Well, that's true.
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See?
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So here we all think you sound awesome.
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So you should just spend more time here.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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I'm trying.
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I love it.
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I love it.
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Well, today I would love to have a conversation on something that I think you're a bit of an expert in.
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I know your background includes pet product, you know, pet health distribution things and being in the retail space and helping people distribute great products that affect pet health.
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But I think you have a big background in understanding the manufacturing of food and a lot of what's going on behind the scenes and even labeling, which is a big issue, I think, for pet parents to decipher informed choices of what to buy when they're purchasing pet food.
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And so I would love to hear from you some of the common terms and nomenclature that we see on bags, human grade, feed grade, you know, these things and meal versus byproduct and all this kind of stuff.
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Can you help us boil down like what's on labels?
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How do we make good choices for pets?
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Yeah, so like just as a background thing.
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So I've obviously worked with worked in manufacturing, I've worked obviously I was wholesale distribution.
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Um, but that also meant that I used to like spend a lot of time at factories seeing how things were made and whole processes.
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So and I've worked in agriculture, grandparents were farmers, um, I've worked in like chicken farms, that sort of stuff.
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So I understand like literally like from you know, and then producing products, like labeling them, understanding what you can get away with, what you can't get away with, um, understanding how to to make something sound more important and and obscure others.
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And again, this is something really common in pet food because I think pet food labelling, especially in the America, is very opaque in terms of like you can't really like see what you're getting.
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When we look at like human grade versus feed grade, because I think there's a big thing where people think if it's if it's human grade, then it's only the good bits of meat.
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Yes, that's definitely how the consumer would you know have the perception of yeah, but like look, we have human grade like hot dog, like hot dogs are human grade.
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Chicken, like the lowest quality chicken nuggets are human grade.
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I don't know if you've ever seen like the strawberry milkshake looking chicken.
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I don't know.
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I don't think so.
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Like there's it's kind of that classic, like, it's like a pink slurry.
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Uh-huh.
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And they're like, oh, okay, these this is your chicken nuggets.
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Okay.
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Or like this is your Frankfurters or whatever, or this is your hot dog meat.
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Might be because I don't eat chicken nuggets that I don't know about.
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They're delicious.
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I was going to try them.
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I I actually hate the terminology because I think it obscures what the product is.
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So if it were up to you, the the term human grade would wouldn't even be used.
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No, because it doesn't mean anything.
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It's very important, human grade ingredients.
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Like human grade.
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If it's food, it should be human grade.
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Like humans eat food.
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Yes.
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So then it just means real food and not get well.
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It's a marketing term like natural, which they can stick out their ass, to be honest.
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So like when we look at like human grade versus feed grade, what is the difference?
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There's there's two major differences, and again, what you'll find is a lot of companies will actually say made with human-grade ingredients rather than human grade.
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Oh, I see that slight distinction.
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Yes.
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Okay, made with human grade ingredients.
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Because what you'll find is that in the in the the premium category, in the fresh pet food category, in the raw category, in the gently cooked category, pretty much everything is made with human-grade ingredients because with feed grade, um, there is like a cold chain problem.
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But pet food grade can also just mean it's moves from USDA to FDA.
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Because the moment you process a product in a pet food factory, it's immediately pet food grade.
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Regardless of cold chain, regardless of cuts of meat.
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So FDA is oversee is overseeing.
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USDA is overseeing human food.
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Like, so if I've let's say I kill two cows and I go, right, this one's going to the pet food factory, this one's going to human food factory, exactly the same cow, exactly the same cuts of meat, exactly the same process, exactly the same cold chain.
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One will be human grade, the other one will be pet food.
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Okay.
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But that's why but you can say it's made with human grade ingredients.
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Yes.
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And then like when you say use with human grade ingredients, that can still mean it just means that the cold chain is in place.
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When you say cold chain, that means the chain of events that are occurring to process that food.
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Yeah, so so basically when I say cold chain, what I'm saying is is that it it once it's the animal is slaughtered, it has to be kept at a certain temperature.
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Okay.
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Moving between uh scenarios so that it doesn't get too much bacteria, um, it doesn't like yeah, degrade, decompose, and become problematic down the line.
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With m meal, for example, there doesn't have to be such a strict application of that because the high heat process will destroy any back any bacteria or any problem.
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So meal by definition is rendered, it's heated, it's it's basically round, heated to higher temperature, and again, so and look, there's different types meat, meal, chicken, and then you have like individual animal-based meals.
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And if you are, and what that is the most commonly found thing in ultraposis foods, so is meal because it's cheap.
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Right.
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So if you're buying a very cheap bag of dog food, it will have either meat meal or a specific animal meal within it.
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And the worst thing, what worst one you can get is what they call meat meal in the US.
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Oh, because it's nondescript animal meal.
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Okay.
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And so rather than saying chicken meal or you know turkey meal or a fish meal or whatever.
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If it says meat meal, then it's really obscure.
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Yeah, it it's literally can be every everything.
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So this is where the 4D argument comes in.
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So anyone like so 4D is basically dead, dying, uh dying, diseased and disabled animals.
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Now, in Europe, we're not allowed to use those animals.
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Yep.
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And you hear the 4D going, uh, you know, a common term used in the integrative, you know, veterinary space where we're very interested in feeding high-quality foods to pets.
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So people talk about avoid the 4Ds.
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Yeah.
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So dead, dying, diseased, and disabled.
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So when we say dead, that means the animal's already dead.
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It wasn't slaughtered for you know, food consumption.
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Theoretically, when you look at like FDA guidance, um it shouldn't be used, but it's kind of a gray area.
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Kind there's kind of a blind eye to had been turned to it because it goes through the rendering process.
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So meat meal is basically rendered meat.
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So you you're basically just getting everything, grinding it, and then cooking it at extremely high temperature.
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Okay, I'm glad you said that because I was gonna ask you to define rendering.
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So to clarify, it's food processing it down to very small, you know, pieces or whatever, but also rendering means that they're heating it at high temperatures.
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So it's both it's the grinding it down and the heating it at high temperatures, right?
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And so, in the case of 4D meat, so if you've got a diseased animal, there the diseases that it would have died from will not survive that process.
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So they think it's okay.
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So, yeah, so they turn a blind eye to it in a scent.
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Because if it's done in that way using 4D, it won't hurt your animal because nutritively it's already had everything cooked out of it anyway.
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So nutritionally it's not that useful.
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But it's also sad part, it's also not gonna hurt in the same way that if you were to use 4D meat in a fresh pet food.
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Okay, and where does the word byproduct come in?
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How is that different from meal?
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When we're making something, it's what's left over, generally.
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So it's byproducts aren't a bad thing that like necessarily, but they are just lower grade and would have a higher calcium content because there's higher bone sources.
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That makes sense.
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Can I ask?
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So, where would like feathers or beaks or feet and toenails?
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Do what is that in rendered stuff?
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Like can feathers and all these things that are not very digestible be thrown in these meal feed grade.
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Oh, yeah, for sure.
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Like like the the meal for sure.
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Yeah.
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Like I would expect it to be in there.
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Yeah.
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A bit because again, the problem with meal is that it is like it is completely non-uniform.
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So there can be varying amounts of all those things.
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Yeah, it can be all of those things.
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And see, I love to, you know, on a little, you know, important tangent of that discussion is that in veterinary medicine, when we see pets, for instance, suffering with kidney problems, the biggest approach that veterinarians take is reduce the protein levels to spare the kidneys.
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That's a whole great episode we'll have someday, because that's a really good discussion.
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But the thing that I've told pet parents for a long time is that there's a big difference between quality protein and poorly digestible, you know, poor quality protein.
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But when you're lacking at a bag of a pet food label, it'll just say percentage of protein.
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And meat protein is digested and utilized very differently in the body than keratin, which is a protein on paper.
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But so we're we got beaks and feathers and you know, hair and all this kind of stuff.
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And so that shows up as protein, but the body goes through a lot of effort to excrete the byproducts of that, but can't get the amino acids and the really usable proteins out of there.
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This is why I say like when it comes to just like even high quality meat products, um the what the actual cuts of meat is so important because again, like if you're if you're eating connective tissue and skirt and you know, like the kind of highly gristly type.
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Right, less meaty, more gristly type of food, like meat, the body won't be able to digest as much as it, but it will show up as protein, it will show up as meat.
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And like, look, if I have like you know, a big bowl of like sinew and you know, that sort of stuff, and I have a bowl of beef of the same weight, different protein it it's a completely different product and absorb it.
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And then I can have another bowl of let's say the flakes of meat that were left on on the carcass, which I was able to get off without it becoming too infected with calcium, so it it can fall under, still fall under beef.
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These are all different things, and they all have completely different properties, different amino acid complexes, different levels of fat, different oxidation speeds.
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Um, but I can claim them all as the same.
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Yeah.
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And that there's and it would make sense to me that some of the sinew, you know, fascial connective tissue stuff is natural because in the wild they'd be eating prey.
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And I know Dr.
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Connor Brady has brought up a lot of interesting um concepts recently about um meat fiber in the diet having some value.
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But to put things into perspective, everything in moderation, like you don't want the primary load of protein going into a pet's body to be that.
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This is why I say like the conversation around processing and this sort of stuff are actually a lot less of an influence than the cuts of meat.
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So interesting.
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Because a lot of people, and even in the integrative space like me, we may be more inclined to focus on the processing method than understanding the nitty-gritty about the ingredients and the label.
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This is why I particularly like companies that actually highlight the cuts of meats that are used.
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So if you're using hearts, if you're using skirt, like there's it's really important to actually put that on the labeling.
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And the bag with the colorful, beautiful pictures will literally have a picture of a steak on the front of the bag.
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Yeah.
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And then you get to it and it's like byproduct and meat, it's not even close to a steak.
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The other thing is a very easy test.
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Like you do a test on your meat and you show the percentage of hydroxyproline, which is which lines out the amount of connected tissue you have within that meat source.
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And so you don't want that number to look be too high.
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No, everything's gonna have some.
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Yeah.
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But again, if you don't want it to be disproportionate to exactly because then the quality of the meat you're actually gonna get in that pet food is gonna be harder to digest, like you know, worse amino acids, etc.
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etc.
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etc.
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And I am glad that you mentioned heart when you were kind of citing, you know, different ingredients that could be separated on a label and transparent, you know, what kind of cuts meat.
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Because I also, you know, am a huge proponent of having a decent amount of organ meat in pet food that would align with their evolutionary type diet.
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The reality is I think with a lot of like rendered meat, like so the meat meal products.
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Now, again, it does, and this is why there is certain products which are better as meal, I guess, than others.
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Like, so for example, chicken is one of the better things to buy in terms of low low value, just because there is a huge amount of stream of chickens that we wouldn't eat ourselves.
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So, for example, so with chickens, like I don't know how much you know about growing of chickens, but an average chicken is cold at six to eight weeks.
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Wow.
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So we call them broiler chickens.
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Okay.
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So a broiler chicken, you they they're fast growing, they're literally only alive for eight weeks.
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Yeah, six to eight weeks, and then they're cold.
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But there's also laying chickens.
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Laying chickens generally have eighteen months, but we don't eat laying chickens because we're so used to our chicken meat being very tender.
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If you were to like eat an 18-month-old chicken, it would be very tough, quite gamey.
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Interesting.
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The whole egg industry is basically raise the chickens, they lay for 18 months, then their production value drops to beyond the point of economic reality.
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They all get cold, and a lot of those will either end up in pet food pet food because they're older and not as tender, yeah, not as the same tasty quality.
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So you're more likely to get like the better quality stuff ending up fascinating.
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Rabbit hole or chicken hole to go down at some point.
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But but but it's also because it's a because it's a co-product of the egg industry, the the cold chickens, like we then like that ends up as a very low cost.
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Just to make sure everybody knows with your awesome accent, cold chicken, not cold chicken.
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No, cold, as in like ones we've like cold like like that, you know.
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Right, okay.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Slaughtered slaughtered chickens, yeah.
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I'm just gonna say vegan people cannot listen to this episode.
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It's really just kind of their skin's gonna be crawling.
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Sorry, vegan pet parents.
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Please feed your pets meat though.
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Chicken meal is one of the most is one of the cheapest sort of single protein meals meals there are because again, there's a huge amount of co-product coming from the layers industry.
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But a chicken which comes from a laying industry can still be free-range, it can still be organic.
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Ah.
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So again, the labeling can be deceiving as to what you're actually getting.
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Yeah, and also look, you I think with a lot of these things, you have to it it's not about what they're telling you, it's about what they're not telling you.
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Like a good quality company will not be like banging on about certain what I call like high high-level marketing stuff, like human grade or um, you know, organic and grass-fed and all these things.
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I mean, again, just have you can have these things, but the like the most important thing is is that what meats are actually used within the pet food and what re what rationale do you have for using that particular meat?
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Because again, like pet food is expensive, especially when you look at the premium end.
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Because the problem is, is when there's no transparency, there is a tendency to go to what's cheapest very quickly.
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And and what's cheapest is mass-produced deboned meat, which is again it's very fatty, it's damaged amino acid profile, and it it doesn't have the cell integrity of some of the other, let's say, lower cost cuts of meat, which you could use.
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One way I've always tested like meat, like raw meat, to see the quality of it is like the microwave test.
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So I'll so I'll put like meat in like in a bowl in the microwave to see how it how it cooks.
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And again, if you're using really low quality meat, it will like it will just turn into like like a pure loaf.
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:28.880
So you know how if you like get like you know a bunch of chicken or a bunch, you know, like some you know, some ground beef that they will like, or like a a steak, put it in the microwave and put ground beef in the microwave, or even like like the more the lower the quality and the higher the fat, it will kind of loaf more and become really disgusting looking.
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:43.920
So I will literally put something in the microwave and go, because again, is how it cooks down, and like you can do that between brands, so like both will just let's say look like a load of red gunk, put them in the microwave, see how they come out, and you tell me which one looks better.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:19:02.000
And that is a real common way where I'll actually like put brands against each other because some of them will literally cook down to almost nothing because it's so full of fat and like can like really low quality stuff, and a lot of the connective tissue will melt under that sort of pressure as well.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.319
Interesting, never would have thought of that.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:13.759
Whereas, like, literally, I've seen like some very reputable UK brands um loaf up in the microwave.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:18.480
Oh, literally, literally loaf up and how long do you have to cook that, by the way?
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.519
A few minutes.
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:19.839
Okay.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:20.319
A few minutes.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.200
So we're not talking like 20 minutes and a couple of days in a minute.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.680
In case anyone wants to do the at-home microwave test, but according to Clayton Payne.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:32.079
Just put two, like do it, do it with one brand, do it with another, and just see the difference.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:41.440
I mean, I've seen some which have literally, because they're just using really low quality meat, it literally just turns into it will like melt away almost, to be honest.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:51.599
But just to clarify, too, a little bit of fat, meat fat, is like we don't need to be ultra low fat and fat's not, you know, necessarily bad or evil.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:20:01.519
We just don't want a big part of the meat pro of the meat portion of the diet to actually be fat, because then it's not but again, it's just it's a it's about like normal levels, is what you want.
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:03.279
It's not about like abnormal.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:03.599
Yep.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.039
Like so and this is the this is this is all it is.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:19.680
This is why I'm always going about like them like having a variety of meats within or like a variety of cuts of meat within a product because different cuts will have different levels of fat associated with it, like different just different properties generally.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:26.640
So again, like a steak will like uh loin will have a different thing from let's say a brisket or do you know what I mean?
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.480
There's different parts of the animal which will have very different um qualities because it will be used for different things within the animal.
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.480
So and levels of fat.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:44.160
So that's where the variety comes in, where then you're generally just gonna get a good composition overall when you're using different cuts and good variety.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.119
That makes good sense.
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.119
So if they are transparent, what does a pet parent look for?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.839
Like, are there certain cuts of meat that you would say look for these on a label?
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.519
Or there are I think just a variety is fine, to be honest.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:08.960
And and or also people who say we do not use MDM and we do like obviously a lot of them will say we don't use mechanically rendered because but again, that's because the classification has to be different on the packaging.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:21.680
But just saying we don't use MDM mechanically deboned meat, yeah, and we don't use um skirt and we don't use connective tissue, or like just doing a hydroxy proline test and make that a normality.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:36.079
Get get consumers to look for the amount of hydroxyproline because that's the stuff that is it's indigestible and it's not great, and but it will show up on the packaging as just beef or just lamb.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:36.480
Okay.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:41.599
And that's going to be the fibrous connective tissue that doesn't really digest to amino acids.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.160
Correct.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:42.799
Yeah.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:43.440
Okay.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.240
That makes sense.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.000
So I'll always look for you know dog foods which are a little bit more grainy.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.359
You can actually tell what it is.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:22:00.720
If the company do things in bigger chunks as well, you know that because again, you can't get bigger chunks of meat from something that somebody Yeah, from social media.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.839
Render down to that.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:02.160
Yeah.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:16.480
So to boil it down for just the average person, if a company is transparent and even putting on the label their cuts of meat, what are some of the buzz words that people can see on a label and feel more comfortable that that might be quality?
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.440
Like we learned probably avoid meat meal.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:21.599
Like meat meal sounds like the bottom of the barrel.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:22.799
Yeah, no, for sure.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:32.559
Feed grade, meaning it's human grade doesn't guarantee that it's amazing quality, but feed grade is definitely going to be less than human grade for the most part.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.920
Well, the feed grade will generally fall into the meal category anyway.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:36.400
Okay.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:42.319
So those are things that are on the bottom tier of you know what we would love to choose better if we can.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:42.799
Yeah.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:54.160
So those words and then I mean look, a really great thing is like I like companies that show their manufacturing processes openly, you know, like have a video like showing how the thing's made.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:05.279
Because again, like you can quickly tell if I if you saw, let's say, your wet pet vood being squirted out like it's like like a milkshake, you know that's kind of weird, right?
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:16.640
But a lot of the people who are using like this high-level marketing spiel, like they're always banging on about human grade and they're always banging on about certain things rather than talking about the quality of their product.
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:34.720
Because no one's expecting you to do it like you know, to to get the best cuts of meat, because that's not even the best thing a lot of the time, you know, because again, dogs are they're physiologically different to us, and then you know, evolutionarily they'd be eating prey, yeah, which is you know a whole body and you know, a whole prey model.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:38.240
So but what you don't want is like a whole bowl of MDM, right?
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.880
Or a whole bowl of like beef skur or something like that.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.440
MDA mechanically debone meat.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:49.039
So again, meat that's been sort of like stripped off the carcass before it goes into the rendering process.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:55.119
Mechanically rendered meat is labeled differently, it goes over a certain calcium level and they can't get away with it.
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.839
So and so a raw pet food might be mechanically rendered, meaning it's separated mechanically.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:00.960
Mechanically deboned.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:02.640
But or deboned, thank you.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.920
Mechanically deboned, but normal rendered the definition is high heated.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.920
Meat meal is rendered and moved up, and this is where the feed grade thing comes in.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:24.880
Feed grade can be less um observant on this coal chain because it's gonna go through such a high-level heat process that any disease or bacterial load, et cetera, basically gets to be.
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:54.960
You know, kibble and highly processed foods if possible, or have that very small portion of the diet and always work to go away from rendered because anything that's heavily heated, yes, you're killing off bad bacteria if the quality was really poor to start with.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:25:03.039
But the high heat process is neutralizing a lot of nutrients, making it less bioavailable, making it more inflammatory.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:22.640
And one little tidbit I'd love to throw in, because when I think of the word rendering, I always think of uh rendered fats is the fats, when they're heated at high temperatures, also get oxidized and become, you know, rancid in the food, you know, sit in the food, and that can add a whole nother level of inflammation in the body and be pro-inflammatory.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:35.200
So I think it's just obviously like just try and if if you're if you're a factory of choice, we'll let you, I think, always try and see the process or get them to disclose what they're actually using.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.279
Because again, ingredients labels on pet food is not open, like I said.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:48.559
Yeah, it's very steered marketing with pictures, words, the shape of the bag, the size of things, like everything is a marketing strategy.
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.440
So this is a really good conversation for pet parents.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:05.680
And if pet parents really want to go sort of, you know, that extra effort to look into stuff, you're suggesting like go to that company's website and see if they have a video or see if they have any more information that's disclosing or transparent.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.599
And see what see what the meat looks like before it goes through the the sort of mixing process.
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:16.880
If that's if if that's even available, if companies provide that, that's a really nice way to see a marker of quality behind them.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:26.480
I'm lucky because obviously I've been in this, and like the the meat I use personally is like comes from a guy who I know exactly his process, I know where he buys his meat from.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.599
I know he doesn't buy it from the the bulk markets.
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:39.839
And look, the reality is is that it's very hard to get low-cost or pet food cost um meats which are high quality.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:45.839
So if you are doing it uh at scale, chances are you're gonna have to use a lot of MDM.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:50.240
Like it's just a natural thing you'll have to do because there's a lot of that product out there.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.559
But again, look, just be open and honest about it.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:00.640
Just be open and honest and say, look, we we are using a percentage of this, but we're also using heart, and we're also using this, and we're always using that's fine.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.000
I've got nothing against it.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:15.119
It does digest easier, maybe it's not as great in other ways, but I feel like there's a lot of like valid like anti stuff with like things like well, we don't use HPP, but we're not gonna tell you what our meat is.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.160
Do you know what I mean?
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:27.119
And like people focus most more on the processing, yeah, and HPP being high pressure pasteurization, which means it wasn't heated, yeah, but it was pressurized at the same thing we use.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.119
Super heavy pressure levels to kill bacteria.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:33.519
Yeah, it's the same thing we use for like um cold press juices and that sort of stuff as well.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:35.039
So again, I HPP.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:40.240
Yeah, and look, don't get me wrong, it it damages like amino acids and that sort of stuff.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.960
But again, I don't think it's the w like I'd rather that than rather that than heavily heated.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.640
Or like, you know, or having high levels of bacteria or something like that.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.599
Right, right, exactly.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:50.559
Having safe food.
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:50.799
Yeah.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:55.039
Like there's you know, there's always a compromise with man of food manufacturing.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:01.119
And like, unless you're yeah, very lucky, like there'll always be some level of compromise with anything you do.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.000
Right, right.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:12.079
And so it's just good for people to be educated on what some of the terminology is so that they can make their choices and so yeah, support support companies, not categories.
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:12.480
Ah.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.680
That is my thing.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:14.400
Good.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:14.960
I love that.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:15.920
It's a good tagline.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:22.240
Yeah, because uh again, I think that's one of my irritations is people just say raw is best, but raw is variable.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:28.079
Yes, and like every company is variable, and like you know, so everyone's practices are different.
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:28.799
I love that.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.039
Support companies, not categories.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.640
And so look, and it's a good overall viewpoint to give some perspective.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.400
Yeah, and the companies you should support are the ones with the most transparent methods.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.680
And by transparent, I mean not what they tell you, what they show you.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:44.559
There you go.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:46.480
Yeah, because anyone can tell anyone anything.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.480
Good words to the wise for the consumer.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.160
Thanks everyone for watching.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:57.119
And if you enjoyed this and thought it was useful, please remember to like and subscribe and share with other people as well.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.640
For anyone you know who has pets and wants to learn a little bit more about how to care for them well.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.320
So if it were up to you, the the term human grade would wouldn't even be used.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:06.080
No, because it doesn't mean anything.
00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:06.639
It's very good.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:09.279
And like human grade human grade ingredients.
00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.599
It's a marketing term like natural, which they can stick up their ass, to be honest.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:17.760
Together, an industry disruptor.
00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:23.440
And renowned veterinarian discuss and debate, establish norms and new ideas in the pet world.
00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.399
This is challenging pet health.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:28.719
Aloha.
00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:32.000
Hey, we're together again, Clayton.
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:32.719
I love it.
00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:38.479
And you are representing San Diego style over there with the palm trees on your California.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.479
I'm known for my Southern shirt.
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:42.479
My Southern California flair.
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.039
Everyone sees me and goes, you know.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:47.039
You must be a surfer, right?
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:48.640
100%.
00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:52.560
Yeah, like the fluffy hair and the and the palm trees on my shirt.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:54.640
And the awesome British accent.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.159
It goes so well together.
00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:56.880
I love it.
00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.880
To be honest, my my awesome accent is only a US only thing.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.600
To be honest, the moment I'm at home, it's like it's not an awesome accent.
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:05.200
Well, that's true.
00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:05.760
See?
00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:08.239
So here we all think you sound awesome.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:09.840
So you should just spend more time here.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:10.560
Exactly.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.120
Exactly.
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:12.400
I'm trying.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:14.239
I love it.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:14.959
I love it.
00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:22.079
Well, today I would love to have a conversation on something that I think you're a bit of an expert in.
00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:33.840
I know your background includes pet product, you know, pet health distribution things and being in the retail space and helping people distribute great products that affect pet health.
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:51.599
But I think you have a big background in understanding the manufacturing of food and a lot of what's going on behind the scenes and even labeling, which is a big issue, I think, for pet parents to decipher informed choices of what to buy when they're purchasing pet food.
00:01:51.760 --> 00:02:04.319
And so I would love to hear from you some of the common terms and nomenclature that we see on bags, human grade, feed grade, you know, these things and meal versus byproduct and all this kind of stuff.
00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.560
Can you help us boil down like what's on labels?
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:08.319
How do we make good choices for pets?
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:11.120
Yeah, so like just as a background thing.
00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:15.840
So I've obviously worked with worked in manufacturing, I've worked obviously I was wholesale distribution.
00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:23.520
Um, but that also meant that I used to like spend a lot of time at factories seeing how things were made and whole processes.
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:31.199
So and I've worked in agriculture, grandparents were farmers, um, I've worked in like chicken farms, that sort of stuff.
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:50.080
So I understand like literally like from you know, and then producing products, like labeling them, understanding what you can get away with, what you can't get away with, um, understanding how to to make something sound more important and and obscure others.
00:02:50.319 --> 00:03:01.680
And again, this is something really common in pet food because I think pet food labelling, especially in the America, is very opaque in terms of like you can't really like see what you're getting.
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:13.120
When we look at like human grade versus feed grade, because I think there's a big thing where people think if it's if it's human grade, then it's only the good bits of meat.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:23.680
Yes, that's definitely how the consumer would you know have the perception of yeah, but like look, we have human grade like hot dog, like hot dogs are human grade.
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.800
Chicken, like the lowest quality chicken nuggets are human grade.
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.159
I don't know if you've ever seen like the strawberry milkshake looking chicken.
00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:31.680
I don't know.
00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:32.319
I don't think so.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.919
Like there's it's kind of that classic, like, it's like a pink slurry.
00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:36.240
Uh-huh.
00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:38.960
And they're like, oh, okay, these this is your chicken nuggets.
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:39.599
Okay.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.280
Or like this is your Frankfurters or whatever, or this is your hot dog meat.
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:45.759
Might be because I don't eat chicken nuggets that I don't know about.
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:46.639
They're delicious.
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:48.159
I was going to try them.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.840
I I actually hate the terminology because I think it obscures what the product is.
00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:58.400
So if it were up to you, the the term human grade would wouldn't even be used.
00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.080
No, because it doesn't mean anything.
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.280
It's very important, human grade ingredients.
00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:04.240
Like human grade.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.159
If it's food, it should be human grade.
00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:07.120
Like humans eat food.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:07.520
Yes.
00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.400
So then it just means real food and not get well.
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.639
It's a marketing term like natural, which they can stick out their ass, to be honest.
00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:21.360
So like when we look at like human grade versus feed grade, what is the difference?
00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:31.519
There's there's two major differences, and again, what you'll find is a lot of companies will actually say made with human-grade ingredients rather than human grade.
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:34.639
Oh, I see that slight distinction.
00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:35.360
Yes.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:37.839
Okay, made with human grade ingredients.
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:52.480
Because what you'll find is that in the in the the premium category, in the fresh pet food category, in the raw category, in the gently cooked category, pretty much everything is made with human-grade ingredients because with feed grade, um, there is like a cold chain problem.
00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:58.639
But pet food grade can also just mean it's moves from USDA to FDA.
00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:05.279
Because the moment you process a product in a pet food factory, it's immediately pet food grade.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.319
Regardless of cold chain, regardless of cuts of meat.
00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.560
So FDA is oversee is overseeing.
00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.160
USDA is overseeing human food.
00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:26.959
Like, so if I've let's say I kill two cows and I go, right, this one's going to the pet food factory, this one's going to human food factory, exactly the same cow, exactly the same cuts of meat, exactly the same process, exactly the same cold chain.
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.199
One will be human grade, the other one will be pet food.
00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:31.759
Okay.
00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:35.759
But that's why but you can say it's made with human grade ingredients.
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:36.879
Yes.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:44.399
And then like when you say use with human grade ingredients, that can still mean it just means that the cold chain is in place.
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:49.600
When you say cold chain, that means the chain of events that are occurring to process that food.
00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:58.240
Yeah, so so basically when I say cold chain, what I'm saying is is that it it once it's the animal is slaughtered, it has to be kept at a certain temperature.
00:05:58.399 --> 00:05:58.560
Okay.
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:11.920
Moving between uh scenarios so that it doesn't get too much bacteria, um, it doesn't like yeah, degrade, decompose, and become problematic down the line.
00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:25.759
With m meal, for example, there doesn't have to be such a strict application of that because the high heat process will destroy any back any bacteria or any problem.
00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:38.480
So meal by definition is rendered, it's heated, it's it's basically round, heated to higher temperature, and again, so and look, there's different types meat, meal, chicken, and then you have like individual animal-based meals.
00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:45.279
And if you are, and what that is the most commonly found thing in ultraposis foods, so is meal because it's cheap.
00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:45.759
Right.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:53.439
So if you're buying a very cheap bag of dog food, it will have either meat meal or a specific animal meal within it.
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.360
And the worst thing, what worst one you can get is what they call meat meal in the US.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:02.160
Oh, because it's nondescript animal meal.
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:02.720
Okay.
00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:09.279
And so rather than saying chicken meal or you know turkey meal or a fish meal or whatever.
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:11.759
If it says meat meal, then it's really obscure.
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.480
Yeah, it it's literally can be every everything.
00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:17.199
So this is where the 4D argument comes in.
00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:27.680
So anyone like so 4D is basically dead, dying, uh dying, diseased and disabled animals.
00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.079
Now, in Europe, we're not allowed to use those animals.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:32.639
Yep.
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:44.160
And you hear the 4D going, uh, you know, a common term used in the integrative, you know, veterinary space where we're very interested in feeding high-quality foods to pets.
00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.160
So people talk about avoid the 4Ds.
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:46.639
Yeah.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.399
So dead, dying, diseased, and disabled.
00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.199
So when we say dead, that means the animal's already dead.
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.879
It wasn't slaughtered for you know, food consumption.
00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:05.199
Theoretically, when you look at like FDA guidance, um it shouldn't be used, but it's kind of a gray area.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:12.079
Kind there's kind of a blind eye to had been turned to it because it goes through the rendering process.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.800
So meat meal is basically rendered meat.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:21.199
So you you're basically just getting everything, grinding it, and then cooking it at extremely high temperature.
00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:24.560
Okay, I'm glad you said that because I was gonna ask you to define rendering.
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:35.200
So to clarify, it's food processing it down to very small, you know, pieces or whatever, but also rendering means that they're heating it at high temperatures.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:38.720
So it's both it's the grinding it down and the heating it at high temperatures, right?
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:48.480
And so, in the case of 4D meat, so if you've got a diseased animal, there the diseases that it would have died from will not survive that process.
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:50.000
So they think it's okay.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.799
So, yeah, so they turn a blind eye to it in a scent.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:09:02.240
Because if it's done in that way using 4D, it won't hurt your animal because nutritively it's already had everything cooked out of it anyway.
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.399
So nutritionally it's not that useful.
00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:10.879
But it's also sad part, it's also not gonna hurt in the same way that if you were to use 4D meat in a fresh pet food.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.039
Okay, and where does the word byproduct come in?
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.399
How is that different from meal?
00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.120
When we're making something, it's what's left over, generally.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:26.639
So it's byproducts aren't a bad thing that like necessarily, but they are just lower grade and would have a higher calcium content because there's higher bone sources.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:27.679
That makes sense.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:28.639
Can I ask?
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.759
So, where would like feathers or beaks or feet and toenails?
00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:35.759
Do what is that in rendered stuff?
00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:42.000
Like can feathers and all these things that are not very digestible be thrown in these meal feed grade.
00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:43.200
Oh, yeah, for sure.
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:45.440
Like like the the meal for sure.
00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:45.840
Yeah.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.080
Like I would expect it to be in there.
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:48.399
Yeah.
00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:53.519
A bit because again, the problem with meal is that it is like it is completely non-uniform.
00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:55.840
So there can be varying amounts of all those things.
00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.200
Yeah, it can be all of those things.
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:15.759
And see, I love to, you know, on a little, you know, important tangent of that discussion is that in veterinary medicine, when we see pets, for instance, suffering with kidney problems, the biggest approach that veterinarians take is reduce the protein levels to spare the kidneys.
00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.519
That's a whole great episode we'll have someday, because that's a really good discussion.
00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:30.799
But the thing that I've told pet parents for a long time is that there's a big difference between quality protein and poorly digestible, you know, poor quality protein.
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:37.279
But when you're lacking at a bag of a pet food label, it'll just say percentage of protein.
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:46.320
And meat protein is digested and utilized very differently in the body than keratin, which is a protein on paper.
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:51.120
But so we're we got beaks and feathers and you know, hair and all this kind of stuff.
00:10:51.360 --> 00:11:01.840
And so that shows up as protein, but the body goes through a lot of effort to excrete the byproducts of that, but can't get the amino acids and the really usable proteins out of there.
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:22.399
This is why I say like when it comes to just like even high quality meat products, um the what the actual cuts of meat is so important because again, like if you're if you're eating connective tissue and skirt and you know, like the kind of highly gristly type.
00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:32.960
Right, less meaty, more gristly type of food, like meat, the body won't be able to digest as much as it, but it will show up as protein, it will show up as meat.
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:48.240
And like, look, if I have like you know, a big bowl of like sinew and you know, that sort of stuff, and I have a bowl of beef of the same weight, different protein it it's a completely different product and absorb it.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:12:00.720
And then I can have another bowl of let's say the flakes of meat that were left on on the carcass, which I was able to get off without it becoming too infected with calcium, so it it can fall under, still fall under beef.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:10.240
These are all different things, and they all have completely different properties, different amino acid complexes, different levels of fat, different oxidation speeds.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.200
Um, but I can claim them all as the same.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:13.600
Yeah.
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:23.200
And that there's and it would make sense to me that some of the sinew, you know, fascial connective tissue stuff is natural because in the wild they'd be eating prey.
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:23.919
And I know Dr.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:31.440
Connor Brady has brought up a lot of interesting um concepts recently about um meat fiber in the diet having some value.
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:40.240
But to put things into perspective, everything in moderation, like you don't want the primary load of protein going into a pet's body to be that.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:50.720
This is why I say like the conversation around processing and this sort of stuff are actually a lot less of an influence than the cuts of meat.
00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:52.080
So interesting.
00:12:52.320 --> 00:13:02.799
Because a lot of people, and even in the integrative space like me, we may be more inclined to focus on the processing method than understanding the nitty-gritty about the ingredients and the label.
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.279
This is why I particularly like companies that actually highlight the cuts of meats that are used.
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:13.759
So if you're using hearts, if you're using skirt, like there's it's really important to actually put that on the labeling.
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:20.480
And the bag with the colorful, beautiful pictures will literally have a picture of a steak on the front of the bag.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:20.639
Yeah.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.000
And then you get to it and it's like byproduct and meat, it's not even close to a steak.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:27.840
The other thing is a very easy test.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:36.799
Like you do a test on your meat and you show the percentage of hydroxyproline, which is which lines out the amount of connected tissue you have within that meat source.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:38.960
And so you don't want that number to look be too high.
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.559
No, everything's gonna have some.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:41.039
Yeah.
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:53.759
But again, if you don't want it to be disproportionate to exactly because then the quality of the meat you're actually gonna get in that pet food is gonna be harder to digest, like you know, worse amino acids, etc.
00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:54.159
etc.
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:54.559
etc.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:05.360
And I am glad that you mentioned heart when you were kind of citing, you know, different ingredients that could be separated on a label and transparent, you know, what kind of cuts meat.
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:16.960
Because I also, you know, am a huge proponent of having a decent amount of organ meat in pet food that would align with their evolutionary type diet.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:22.080
The reality is I think with a lot of like rendered meat, like so the meat meal products.
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:27.679
Now, again, it does, and this is why there is certain products which are better as meal, I guess, than others.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:40.639
Like, so for example, chicken is one of the better things to buy in terms of low low value, just because there is a huge amount of stream of chickens that we wouldn't eat ourselves.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:48.639
So, for example, so with chickens, like I don't know how much you know about growing of chickens, but an average chicken is cold at six to eight weeks.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:49.519
Wow.
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.360
So we call them broiler chickens.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:51.840
Okay.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.039
So a broiler chicken, you they they're fast growing, they're literally only alive for eight weeks.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.360
Yeah, six to eight weeks, and then they're cold.
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.360
But there's also laying chickens.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:10.159
Laying chickens generally have eighteen months, but we don't eat laying chickens because we're so used to our chicken meat being very tender.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:14.960
If you were to like eat an 18-month-old chicken, it would be very tough, quite gamey.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:15.759
Interesting.
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:24.559
The whole egg industry is basically raise the chickens, they lay for 18 months, then their production value drops to beyond the point of economic reality.
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:33.840
They all get cold, and a lot of those will either end up in pet food pet food because they're older and not as tender, yeah, not as the same tasty quality.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:39.440
So you're more likely to get like the better quality stuff ending up fascinating.
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.840
Rabbit hole or chicken hole to go down at some point.
00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:52.480
But but but it's also because it's a because it's a co-product of the egg industry, the the cold chickens, like we then like that ends up as a very low cost.
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:57.279
Just to make sure everybody knows with your awesome accent, cold chicken, not cold chicken.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:04.320
No, cold, as in like ones we've like cold like like that, you know.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:04.960
Right, okay.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:05.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.360
Slaughtered slaughtered chickens, yeah.
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.639
I'm just gonna say vegan people cannot listen to this episode.
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.039
It's really just kind of their skin's gonna be crawling.
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:14.879
Sorry, vegan pet parents.
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.840
Please feed your pets meat though.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:28.240
Chicken meal is one of the most is one of the cheapest sort of single protein meals meals there are because again, there's a huge amount of co-product coming from the layers industry.
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:35.039
But a chicken which comes from a laying industry can still be free-range, it can still be organic.
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:35.679
Ah.
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.399
So again, the labeling can be deceiving as to what you're actually getting.
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:48.320
Yeah, and also look, you I think with a lot of these things, you have to it it's not about what they're telling you, it's about what they're not telling you.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:17:02.799
Like a good quality company will not be like banging on about certain what I call like high high-level marketing stuff, like human grade or um, you know, organic and grass-fed and all these things.
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:13.839
I mean, again, just have you can have these things, but the like the most important thing is is that what meats are actually used within the pet food and what re what rationale do you have for using that particular meat?
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.200
Because again, like pet food is expensive, especially when you look at the premium end.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:25.279
Because the problem is, is when there's no transparency, there is a tendency to go to what's cheapest very quickly.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:43.680
And and what's cheapest is mass-produced deboned meat, which is again it's very fatty, it's damaged amino acid profile, and it it doesn't have the cell integrity of some of the other, let's say, lower cost cuts of meat, which you could use.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:50.160
One way I've always tested like meat, like raw meat, to see the quality of it is like the microwave test.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:57.119
So I'll so I'll put like meat in like in a bowl in the microwave to see how it how it cooks.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:05.599
And again, if you're using really low quality meat, it will like it will just turn into like like a pure loaf.
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:28.880
So you know how if you like get like you know a bunch of chicken or a bunch, you know, like some you know, some ground beef that they will like, or like a a steak, put it in the microwave and put ground beef in the microwave, or even like like the more the lower the quality and the higher the fat, it will kind of loaf more and become really disgusting looking.
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:43.920
So I will literally put something in the microwave and go, because again, is how it cooks down, and like you can do that between brands, so like both will just let's say look like a load of red gunk, put them in the microwave, see how they come out, and you tell me which one looks better.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:19:02.000
And that is a real common way where I'll actually like put brands against each other because some of them will literally cook down to almost nothing because it's so full of fat and like can like really low quality stuff, and a lot of the connective tissue will melt under that sort of pressure as well.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.319
Interesting, never would have thought of that.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:13.759
Whereas, like, literally, I've seen like some very reputable UK brands um loaf up in the microwave.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:18.480
Oh, literally, literally loaf up and how long do you have to cook that, by the way?
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.519
A few minutes.
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:19.839
Okay.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:20.319
A few minutes.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.200
So we're not talking like 20 minutes and a couple of days in a minute.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.680
In case anyone wants to do the at-home microwave test, but according to Clayton Payne.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:32.079
Just put two, like do it, do it with one brand, do it with another, and just see the difference.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:41.440
I mean, I've seen some which have literally, because they're just using really low quality meat, it literally just turns into it will like melt away almost, to be honest.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:51.599
But just to clarify, too, a little bit of fat, meat fat, is like we don't need to be ultra low fat and fat's not, you know, necessarily bad or evil.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:20:01.519
We just don't want a big part of the meat pro of the meat portion of the diet to actually be fat, because then it's not but again, it's just it's a it's about like normal levels, is what you want.
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:03.279
It's not about like abnormal.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:03.599
Yep.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.039
Like so and this is the this is this is all it is.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:19.680
This is why I'm always going about like them like having a variety of meats within or like a variety of cuts of meat within a product because different cuts will have different levels of fat associated with it, like different just different properties generally.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:26.640
So again, like a steak will like uh loin will have a different thing from let's say a brisket or do you know what I mean?
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.480
There's different parts of the animal which will have very different um qualities because it will be used for different things within the animal.
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.480
So and levels of fat.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:44.160
So that's where the variety comes in, where then you're generally just gonna get a good composition overall when you're using different cuts and good variety.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.119
That makes good sense.
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.119
So if they are transparent, what does a pet parent look for?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.839
Like, are there certain cuts of meat that you would say look for these on a label?
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.519
Or there are I think just a variety is fine, to be honest.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:08.960
And and or also people who say we do not use MDM and we do like obviously a lot of them will say we don't use mechanically rendered because but again, that's because the classification has to be different on the packaging.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:21.680
But just saying we don't use MDM mechanically deboned meat, yeah, and we don't use um skirt and we don't use connective tissue, or like just doing a hydroxy proline test and make that a normality.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:36.079
Get get consumers to look for the amount of hydroxyproline because that's the stuff that is it's indigestible and it's not great, and but it will show up on the packaging as just beef or just lamb.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:36.480
Okay.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:41.599
And that's going to be the fibrous connective tissue that doesn't really digest to amino acids.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.160
Correct.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:42.799
Yeah.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:43.440
Okay.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.240
That makes sense.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.000
So I'll always look for you know dog foods which are a little bit more grainy.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.359
You can actually tell what it is.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:22:00.720
If the company do things in bigger chunks as well, you know that because again, you can't get bigger chunks of meat from something that somebody Yeah, from social media.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.839
Render down to that.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:02.160
Yeah.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:16.480
So to boil it down for just the average person, if a company is transparent and even putting on the label their cuts of meat, what are some of the buzz words that people can see on a label and feel more comfortable that that might be quality?
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.440
Like we learned probably avoid meat meal.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:21.599
Like meat meal sounds like the bottom of the barrel.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:22.799
Yeah, no, for sure.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:32.559
Feed grade, meaning it's human grade doesn't guarantee that it's amazing quality, but feed grade is definitely going to be less than human grade for the most part.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.920
Well, the feed grade will generally fall into the meal category anyway.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:36.400
Okay.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:42.319
So those are things that are on the bottom tier of you know what we would love to choose better if we can.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:42.799
Yeah.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:54.160
So those words and then I mean look, a really great thing is like I like companies that show their manufacturing processes openly, you know, like have a video like showing how the thing's made.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:05.279
Because again, like you can quickly tell if I if you saw, let's say, your wet pet vood being squirted out like it's like like a milkshake, you know that's kind of weird, right?
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:16.640
But a lot of the people who are using like this high-level marketing spiel, like they're always banging on about human grade and they're always banging on about certain things rather than talking about the quality of their product.
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:34.720
Because no one's expecting you to do it like you know, to to get the best cuts of meat, because that's not even the best thing a lot of the time, you know, because again, dogs are they're physiologically different to us, and then you know, evolutionarily they'd be eating prey, yeah, which is you know a whole body and you know, a whole prey model.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:38.240
So but what you don't want is like a whole bowl of MDM, right?
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.880
Or a whole bowl of like beef skur or something like that.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.440
MDA mechanically debone meat.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:49.039
So again, meat that's been sort of like stripped off the carcass before it goes into the rendering process.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:55.119
Mechanically rendered meat is labeled differently, it goes over a certain calcium level and they can't get away with it.
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.839
So and so a raw pet food might be mechanically rendered, meaning it's separated mechanically.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:00.960
Mechanically deboned.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:02.640
But or deboned, thank you.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.920
Mechanically deboned, but normal rendered the definition is high heated.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.920
Meat meal is rendered and moved up, and this is where the feed grade thing comes in.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:24.880
Feed grade can be less um observant on this coal chain because it's gonna go through such a high-level heat process that any disease or bacterial load, et cetera, basically gets to be.
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:54.960
You know, kibble and highly processed foods if possible, or have that very small portion of the diet and always work to go away from rendered because anything that's heavily heated, yes, you're killing off bad bacteria if the quality was really poor to start with.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:25:03.039
But the high heat process is neutralizing a lot of nutrients, making it less bioavailable, making it more inflammatory.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:22.640
And one little tidbit I'd love to throw in, because when I think of the word rendering, I always think of uh rendered fats is the fats, when they're heated at high temperatures, also get oxidized and become, you know, rancid in the food, you know, sit in the food, and that can add a whole nother level of inflammation in the body and be pro-inflammatory.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:35.200
So I think it's just obviously like just try and if if you're if you're a factory of choice, we'll let you, I think, always try and see the process or get them to disclose what they're actually using.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.279
Because again, ingredients labels on pet food is not open, like I said.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:48.559
Yeah, it's very steered marketing with pictures, words, the shape of the bag, the size of things, like everything is a marketing strategy.
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.440
So this is a really good conversation for pet parents.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:05.680
And if pet parents really want to go sort of, you know, that extra effort to look into stuff, you're suggesting like go to that company's website and see if they have a video or see if they have any more information that's disclosing or transparent.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.599
And see what see what the meat looks like before it goes through the the sort of mixing process.
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:16.880
If that's if if that's even available, if companies provide that, that's a really nice way to see a marker of quality behind them.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:26.480
I'm lucky because obviously I've been in this, and like the the meat I use personally is like comes from a guy who I know exactly his process, I know where he buys his meat from.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.599
I know he doesn't buy it from the the bulk markets.
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:39.839
And look, the reality is is that it's very hard to get low-cost or pet food cost um meats which are high quality.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:45.839
So if you are doing it uh at scale, chances are you're gonna have to use a lot of MDM.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:50.240
Like it's just a natural thing you'll have to do because there's a lot of that product out there.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.559
But again, look, just be open and honest about it.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:00.640
Just be open and honest and say, look, we we are using a percentage of this, but we're also using heart, and we're also using this, and we're always using that's fine.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.000
I've got nothing against it.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:15.119
It does digest easier, maybe it's not as great in other ways, but I feel like there's a lot of like valid like anti stuff with like things like well, we don't use HPP, but we're not gonna tell you what our meat is.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.160
Do you know what I mean?
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:27.119
And like people focus most more on the processing, yeah, and HPP being high pressure pasteurization, which means it wasn't heated, yeah, but it was pressurized at the same thing we use.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.119
Super heavy pressure levels to kill bacteria.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:33.519
Yeah, it's the same thing we use for like um cold press juices and that sort of stuff as well.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:35.039
So again, I HPP.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:40.240
Yeah, and look, don't get me wrong, it it damages like amino acids and that sort of stuff.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.960
But again, I don't think it's the w like I'd rather that than rather that than heavily heated.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.640
Or like, you know, or having high levels of bacteria or something like that.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.599
Right, right, exactly.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:50.559
Having safe food.
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:50.799
Yeah.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:55.039
Like there's you know, there's always a compromise with man of food manufacturing.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:01.119
And like, unless you're yeah, very lucky, like there'll always be some level of compromise with anything you do.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.000
Right, right.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:12.079
And so it's just good for people to be educated on what some of the terminology is so that they can make their choices and so yeah, support support companies, not categories.
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:12.480
Ah.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.680
That is my thing.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:14.400
Good.
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:14.960
I love that.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:15.920
It's a good tagline.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:22.240
Yeah, because uh again, I think that's one of my irritations is people just say raw is best, but raw is variable.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:28.079
Yes, and like every company is variable, and like you know, so everyone's practices are different.
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:28.799
I love that.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.039
Support companies, not categories.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.640
And so look, and it's a good overall viewpoint to give some perspective.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.400
Yeah, and the companies you should support are the ones with the most transparent methods.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.680
And by transparent, I mean not what they tell you, what they show you.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:44.559
There you go.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:46.480
Yeah, because anyone can tell anyone anything.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.480
Good words to the wise for the consumer.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.160
Thanks everyone for watching.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:57.119
And if you enjoyed this and thought it was useful, please remember to like and subscribe and share with other people as well.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.640
For anyone you know who has pets and wants to learn a little bit more about how to care for them well.
