Rayne Orange: Hello and welcome to Certainty for Eternity, the podcast.
Mark Gilbert: where we make sense of Catholicism and Christianity.
Rayne Orange: Hi Mark, it's so good to be together again. are we talking about today?
Mark Gilbert: This we're looking at the opportunities that going to university presents us with to have great gospel conversations people from a Catholic background. ⁓ In a moments, we're going to ⁓ joined by Natalia Reed, who's studied in university in Europe and is going to be coming to us live from Germany. So I'll be excited to hear some of her thoughts and observations from being a university student and a Christian over in Europe.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, and not everyone has had the opportunity to study at University, Mark, but why is it something that's important for us to think about and to look at?
Mark Gilbert: Hmm. Yeah, well in the city that I live in, 50 % of adults have spent time studying at university. So it covers a wide range of people and also anecdotally it seems to be a time where Catholics for the first time in their lives may be exposed to Protestant Christians and hear the gospel and that in the city that I live in, 50 % of adults have spent time studying at university. anecdotally it seems to be a time where Catholics for the first time in their lives may be exposed to Protestant Christians and hear the gospel
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: has a significant effect on Roman Catholics. And lots of Roman Catholics become Christians during their time at university because of their encounter with other Christians. So it's a keen time for Protestants and Catholics to be talking together about Jesus. lots of Roman Catholics become Christians during their time at university
Rayne Orange: Yeah, it really is one of those like ⁓ microcosms, isn't it? Where you can see this cross section of society and all these different people coming together where maybe they wouldn't before. So it is a really good opportunity.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. It sure is. Now you've had an opportunity to go to University, right? ⁓ What did you study and where did you study?
Rayne Orange: That makes me sound fancy. feel like, cause we just talk about Bible college, doesn't seem like university, ⁓ I am educated. ⁓ got the honor and pleasure of spending ⁓ years at Briercrest College and Seminary in Cairnport, Saskatchewan. ⁓ And studied a Bachelor of Arts in Youth Ministry with a minor in Psychology.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. How many Catholics were at that institution?
Rayne Orange: Yeah. There was actually one really outspoken Catholic who was practicing. There was one, because it's a Protestant, it's non-denominational, but it's a Protestant Bible college. And so the fact that there was even one Roman Catholic girl who came in and held on to that. But I did have other friends who were from a Roman Catholic background at college. And one family in particular, I'm thinking of all three of them actually went through college at Briercrest. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: One. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Rayne Orange: And it was really interesting seeing how they came in actually knowing quite little about the Bible and how God grew them and blessed them through that experience.
Mark Gilbert: So perhaps if you're keen to talk with Catholics about Jesus, don't go to a Protestant Bible college. Is that what you're saying?
Rayne Orange: Protestant Bible College. I think that's right. I think that's right. But my experience is pretty particular. Mark, you had more of the normal university experience. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what it was like for you when you were studying?
Mark Gilbert: It's been. There was nothing normal about my university experience, but I did study. I studied at the Sydney University for six years. I did a Bachelor of Medicine and a Bachelor of Surgery.
Rayne Orange: No? ⁓ cool. I didn't know. So you're not a surgeon.
Mark Gilbert: And then I also, ⁓ when I went through medicine, rather than it being a master's or a doctorate degree, it was a double bachelor degree. And the way that they ⁓ articulated the bachelor degree was that you got two bachelor degrees, a bachelor of medicine and a bachelor of surgery. We did very little surgery in our medical course
Rayne Orange: Okay. That's pretty cool. Very little surgery. So what was...
Mark Gilbert: That's what's written on my transcript.
Rayne Orange: Well, it's lovely to have on the wall anyways,
Mark Gilbert: to a theological college and got a Bachelor of Divinity as well, but there were no Catholics at my theological college, unfortunately. But there were lots when I was studying medicine.
Rayne Orange: so when you went to university, as we've talked about before, ⁓ that's kind of when encountered the gospel for the first time. So do you want to tell us a little bit about what that was like for you? you went to university, ⁓ that's when you encountered the gospel for the first time. So you want to tell us a little bit about what that was like for you?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, yeah, ah, yes, was wonderful. It was the first time I ever heard the Gospel. It was a really interesting and transformative time in my life. At the end of Year 12, as a committed Roman Catholic, I'd just met the Pope. He'd come to Australia in one of the World Youth Day events, and I was in the choir, I was a couple of rows away from him. One of my friends held his hand and waved his hand as he was singing one of the songs and I got to shake his hand as he walked down the aisle back to his Pope Mobile ⁓ to go on to his next event. That was in the year 1995, I think, from memory. ⁓ Yeah, so as a Roman Catholic, that's a bit of a high point, shaking hands with the Pope.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: ⁓ The other thing that had happened to me in that month is my Catholic high school teacher who taught me maths for seven years, who was a Christian, but I realised wasn't Roman Catholic, I went to a Roman Catholic school. At the end of our ⁓ year, at end of our schooling, before we were leaving to go to university, he shared something about his faith in Jesus.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: that had a really significant effect on me as well. So I've had these two really quite significant ⁓ experiences, one being a Catholic high point, another hearing about someone who wasn't Catholic, but had a real genuine faith in Jesus. And I went to university really curious. ⁓ And within the first week or so,
Rayne Orange: Mm.
Mark Gilbert: a couple of keen Christians, doing what Christians sometimes call walk up, where you walk up to people and see if people are interested in having a conversation about Jesus. I didn't know anything about that, but they came up to me and they asked me what I believed. And after 17 years in the Roman Catholic Church and being active and involved and meeting the Pope, I thought I could give them a pretty reasonable answer. And then they asked me, why did I believe that?
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And the best answer I could give was, well, that's what the priest says. And as a first year medical student, I felt a little bit uncomfortable there. I thought I should have been able to say more than that. Not to be art done though, I asked them what they believed and they were able to show me from the Bible what they believed. Now, growing up Catholic, I was convinced that the Bible belonged to the Catholic Church, would back up everything that I was taught and believed. I just didn't know it very well. So,
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Now, growing up Catholic, I was convinced that the Bible belonged to the Catholic would back up everything that I was taught and believed. I just didn't know it very well.
Rayne Orange: you you
Mark Gilbert: I decided to join a Bible study group to help these nice young Protestant blokes see where I was right and they were wrong. And that was where I first heard the Gospel.
Rayne Orange: Mm. It's just an incredible story. And I think it's one of those things where like good on those young guys for being bold and brave because walk up evangelism is really hard. And the new challenges is you're not always even allowed to do that anymore at university in the current day. So it's really awesome that they were able to do that. ⁓ Yeah. And that and to invite you into that Bible study. It's so special.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah! I don't think any university could stop you asking people what they believe. Universities are for the exploration and discussion of ideas. That's entirely appropriate. And generally, socially, if you ask someone what they believe and they give you a reasonable answer, often the person will go, well, I've done lots of talking. It's a bit socially inappropriate. What do you believe? And you know, you've got open slather.
Rayne Orange: Mm. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely.
Mark Gilbert: to talk about what you believe and why you believe it. So, yeah, God help us if you can't share the gospel with people at university. ⁓ yeah. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Mm. ⁓ absolutely. Sorry, think I, just to clarify, I think people absolutely have individual onus, but I do believe that say groups like AFES, which is Australian Educational Fellowship, is that what it stands for?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students.
Rayne Orange: Wonderful. I think they've been limited on what kind of events they can do in campus in recent years. I was talking to a friend about it recently. But yeah, absolutely. And I think for people to take those opportunities, to talk to people in the coffee line, and to really take advantage of getting to know the people around you that aren't just the people you've walked in knowing is really, great. And so this worked for you, Mark. But can you tell us
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Rayne Orange: some the things that ⁓ let those happen and make it such a rich time for the development of relationships and sharing the gospel.
Mark Gilbert: then Absolutely. There are so many opportunities for talking with Catholics about Jesus. One of the most important ones is curiosity. Catholics come to university, they're probably, depending on where they've grown up, many of them have never had a conversation with a Protestant about Jesus. Where I grow up, ⁓ 80 % of people that go to Catholic schools have a Catholic background. Catholics come to university, depending on where they've grown up, many of have never had a conversation with a Protestant about
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And only about one or two percent of people that go to Catholic schools would be evangelical Christians. So the chance of a Catholic person having a chat with a Protestant about Jesus is already very, very small. But then you get to university and Christians are everywhere and they're from quite visible and very accessible. And Catholics are curious. What do you believe? Why do you believe that? Why do you think that? We believe this. It's different. Why do you believe that? And particularly curiosity about
Rayne Orange: well. Mm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Bible ⁓ is a big thing that many Catholics come to university with. know, lovingly, whimsically, ⁓ you know, with good social skills, if you've got them, having those conversations with curious Catholics about Jesus gently, little bit by little bit, with your Bibles open, is an enormous opportunity ⁓ at university. But that's not the only
Rayne Orange: you Mm.
Mark Gilbert: opportunity at university. There are other opportunities as well. So we've talked a bit before about belonging being really important for Roman Catholics. Often they feel like they need to belong to a group in order to believe in Jesus and ⁓ a lot of Catholic theology points in that direction. So at university you already belong together in that you're doing the same.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: but there's all sorts of groups you can belong to with people from a Catholic background and develop and open those relationships to have Christian conversations with them. ⁓ You can invite Catholics to belong to Christian groups and that can be a transforming experience for Roman Catholics. ⁓ I spent a couple of years working as a Christian worker on a university campus and when people from a Roman Catholic background, it was wonderful.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. That's really cool.
Mark Gilbert: They're from a Roman Catholic background, would come to particularly camps and conferences and just be surrounded by a whole lot of people that are just singing about and praising Jesus and learning about him and working hard at living for Jesus. That experience can be completely transformative for people from a Roman Catholic background. So belonging to things at universities with Roman Catholics is so much easier. the experiences that you can share with people from a Roman Catholic background about Jesus are really ⁓ quite significant as well. I remember as a Roman Catholic going to the Christian prayer groups, we'd have them once a week and I'd get to university early and I'd pray with the Christians at the university and that experience really had a big impact on me as well. Music and singing, all those sorts of experiences that we kind of take the granted sometimes can be really transformative for people from a Roman Catholic background. But the other really good opportunity for Roman Catholics is ⁓ in our conversations with them about Jesus is the long term nature of those relationships that you start to develop at university.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: I've still got Catholic friends from university that I talked to. There was a fellow I had a conversation with just a week ago who was really working hard to do good things to please God even though he now said he was a non-practicing Catholic and we had a chat about no matter how hard he tried, no matter how good he was, what he needed to do is just to put his trust in Jesus. This is two 50 year old blokes having a chat.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: There was another fellow I caught up with a few months ago and we hadn't seen each other for 20 or 30 years and opportunities to talk about Jesus were just flowing and those long-term relationships where people can see that you live out your convictions throughout your whole life, ⁓ carry weight and continue to carry weight as people live their lives and
Rayne Orange: ⁓ wow. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: make mistakes and go through various traumas and experiences. The capacity to build those long-term relationships and be able to speak the gospel into all sorts of situations of people's lives is enormous. So it's just such a wonderful opportunity for Christians to meet Catholics, develop those relationships and share the thing that's most precious to us with them, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. That's really incredible, Mark. And I think it is. Those long term relationships are so important because even it's again, it's a bit different. But when I went to Bible College, I still have really good friends. And even though we were all at Bible College together, some of them are at different places in their walk with Jesus now. But I know that the opportunities will be there over the next, you know, God willing, when we're 50, we'll be having conversations about Jesus, talking about the good old days. And so.
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. When you're at uni, you've got time for those relationships and conversations. When your kids have grown up, if you do have kids, you've got more time for those conversations and relationships. When you have kids and getting them through school, it's really the focus is on the school itself. And it's harder to out beyond kind of school and work if you work.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Which is worth remembering because again, if you're in a culture where Catholic kids are educated separately from Protestant kids, which they are here in Australia, there's 20 or 30 years there where that whole group of people are isolated from Protestants and don't get to hear and experience the things that we know and experience through the Bible and through our faith in Jesus. So we've got to make even more
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: use of the opportunities that we have outside of that time. So university and retirement are both great opportunities for having great conversations with Catholics about Jesus.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. I've got another question for you then. So we've talked about the general university context, but I know like, say in Sydney, there's Australian Catholic University, and I'm assuming they would pull in more Catholics than other universities might. So is it a good option? Like should Protestants consider going to ACU for their studies so that they have those kinds of opportunities?
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely yes, and join a Protestant Christian group when you're there. ⁓ Most Catholic universities have to have a Protestant Christian group as part of their campus activities, as well as Muslim faith groups as well. So go to those universities, join a Protestant group so that you can be encouraged and learn more from the Bible, because that's the other great opportunity at university. You can learn to think and act as an adult Christian at university and you can delve more deeply into the scriptures and deal with and wrestle with some of those harder and deeper questions about life and God and yourself ⁓ at university because you've got time and opportunity to do that. So connect and form deep relationships.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: with Christian brothers and sisters at university and from those relationships it's a really great way to reach out to the Roman Catholics around you, even at Catholic universities. I think it's great idea,
Rayne Orange: Mm. Yeah, and it gives you something too that's ⁓ really clear that you can invite your Catholic friends to, because I think depending on what your church context is or having something on campus where there's regular meetings, it just makes it really easy for that initial invitation.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yes, sometimes Catholic institutions suppress Christians in what they're doing and how they're doing things. I remember when I was working at New South Wales University, there was a Catholic organisation that provided accommodation for people at the university and there were some Christians in that accommodation and they weren't allowed to go and take Bibles to
Rayne Orange: you
Mark Gilbert: their student peers within that accommodation. They weren't allowed to run Bible studies in their accommodation with their peers and friends. ⁓ And they were, it was quite difficult for a number of them to live out their Christian faith in those Catholic accommodation centres, which is, it's sad. ⁓ And it can happen more so when
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Catholicism is the dominant religion ⁓ in a country or a place. But, and it'll be interesting to hear from Natalia how she sees that ⁓ happening in Europe. But there can actually be pressure and even today persecution of Christians in Roman Catholic institutions.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And I've seen a little bit of that firsthand even in Sydney.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, well, how did it go for you? Because I know that you talked about some of these people you're still having gospel conversations with, you 30 years later. But how has it been for the Roman Catholics that you went through university with?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we still meet and do social things together. We still have conversations. We share things about our lives together. We share about Jesus together. Yeah, I've seen a few of them become Christian, apart from myself from a Roman Catholic background through my friendship group. I've also seen a number of people from a Roman Catholic background become Christian.
Rayne Orange: Mmm.
Mark Gilbert: when I was working as a Christian worker on university campus and have continued relationships with them over years and decades. And it's been wonderful to see how the gospel that they first heard at university has found root and ⁓ has held onto them, Jesus has held onto them through decades of life and all of the ups and downs of life. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: So yeah, there's a few men and women that I saw become Christians at university that are still Christians 20, 30 years later, which is wonderful. It's great to see.
Rayne Orange: That's really cool. Yeah. It'll be interesting to ask Natalia as well because ⁓ in Europe is this is just me wondering things you tell me if you know, but is the like the population more Catholic than here because we're so far away from Rome and the old the old places.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes. That's a really, really good and interesting question. I think, and I've had conversations with Christian missionaries in Rome and in Italy, ⁓ Sydney is more Catholic than Rome.
Rayne Orange: No way.
Mark Gilbert: Absolutely. In the sense that the commitment to the spiritual aspects of Roman Catholicism in Sydney is greater than the commitment to the spiritual aspects of Roman Catholicism in Rome. Part of the reason for that is that in Sydney,
Rayne Orange: That actually shocks me. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: Most Catholics, not all Catholics, go through the Catholic school system. So for 13 years of their education, they're in an environment where they're clearly taught Roman Catholicism. In the Rome school system, it's a secular education with Catholic priests and nuns coming in at various points in people's education to give the Catholic understanding of faith.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Protestant teaching is excluded within the Catholic education system in Italy. It's the Catholic priests and nuns that have almost an exclusive ⁓ role in educating kids in school about faith. ⁓ And a number of my Protestant ⁓ minister friends in Rome ⁓ experience a degree of persecution and exclusion and support.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: oppression by the state ⁓ of Italy because the state of Italy considers itself to be Roman Catholic. So people will identify culturally and nationalistically as Roman Catholic, but actually be less spiritually Roman Catholic than people in Sydney. It's a fascinating thing to see.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Mm. It is really interesting because I think that idea of belonging we've spoken heaps about on the podcast is just so important. And I was thinking because we're getting ready to go to Italy shortly and ⁓ I was reading one of Leonardo Di Chirico's books in preparation for the trip and he was saying how when his parents had missionaries knock on their door, Protestant missionaries for the first time, they asked if they were Christians and their response was, well, we're Italian, so we're Catholic.
Mark Gilbert: You ⁓
Rayne Orange: And it was really tied up in that sense of, because I'm Italian, this is who I am. Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ That's really interesting.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, yeah. Even the concept for me of being Christian and not Catholic was a foreign one to me growing up until I heard from my Christian maths teacher. Because for me growing up, being Christian was being Catholic. That was all I knew.
Rayne Orange: Mmm. ⁓ wow. That's one of the things that I found really interesting is ⁓ the Catholics I knew growing up, think because it's maybe similar to Italy, but they didn't seem that invested in the spiritual side of it. was it was maybe who their family heritage was. They went through all of the sacraments, but they didn't really believe it all. ⁓ Whereas it's interesting having my Catholic friends now and hearing them call themselves Christians, because I think like
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Rayne Orange: At least where I grew up, people really understood that there was... I think they think there's a diff... Yeah, or at least that's not the language they would use. Even if maybe they'd say, ⁓ I guess I'm a Christian, but they're Catholic. Whereas now I have my friends referring a lot more to, ⁓ know, the Christians, this or I'm a Christian or as a Christian. And it's really taken me by surprise.
Mark Gilbert: difference. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah, again it's part of that idea that the true place to find Christianity is within the Roman Catholic Church. So we're all Christians, we're all Catholic is the kind of Roman Catholic theological position. And so rather than using the word Catholic now to include everyone within Roman Catholicism, Catholics are trying to use the word Christian to include everyone within Roman
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Catholicism meaning unified as Christians, which ultimately for Catholics means being unified as Catholics. So just got to be aware of that shift in language that has been happening over the last 10 years or so. It's not what the words are, it's what the words mean. So what do you mean by being Christian? What does being Christian mean for you?
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Who is Jesus? It's not that you're follower of Jesus. Who is Jesus? How do you know Jesus? All those sorts of things. Because for a Catholic, they know Jesus primarily through the piece of bread in the Eucharist, which we talked about recently.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, it's true. And it's also interesting thinking about which is also probably important for people in universities encountering Roman Catholics maybe for the first time is how do you adjust your language so that they understand clearly what you're saying as well? Which can seem like hard work because you know, like we've talked about the idea of grace being that God saves people who don't deserve it without their help
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. brought. That's a yeah. Mmm.
Rayne Orange: and how it's like as Protestants, we're so used to thinking about grace, but how when we're speaking to our Catholic friends, we actually have to change the way that we're speaking so that it's clear what we're saying.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Anyway... So when I share the Gospel with Catholics, I don't say you've been saved by grace through faith. I say Jesus saves people who don't deserve it without their help. Do you trust that?
Rayne Orange: Mm. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: Again, you're using slightly different words, communicating the same idea, but you're doing it in a way that's much clearer for Roman Catholics. God saves people who don't deserve it without their help. Do you trust that?
Rayne Orange: Mm. And what good news? What good news? That is what it's all about.
Mark Gilbert: That's what it's all about, right? That's what it's all about. Alright, well, I think it's time to hear from Natalia.
Rayne Orange: Absolutely. Hi, Natalia. Thank you so much for being here with us today. If we could just start, just tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us what you're currently doing and what you've done in universities.
Natalia: My name is Natalia and I studied in Madrid Dentistry. That's it. ⁓ was living in Chile. I was born in... Right, yeah. And my name... Yeah, for sure. But my parents, were both evangelized by missionaries. One from the United States, they were Presbyterians. And from the side of my mother was an Anglican church. Very thankful for you all English speaker countries.
Mark Gilbert: You're born in Chile. That is even more Catholic. Yes. So English is your third language, is it, Natalia?
Natalia: ⁓ I would say, yeah, you speak Spanish, then you learn ⁓ German, where I live right now. But English was always the language we got at school instead of French.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Rayne Orange: Can I just say as someone that only speaks one language, I'm always blown away by people that can be fluent across multiple languages. So well done. And what a combination.
Natalia: It's good to have eternal life to be able to learn more because it's never a finish or task.
Mark Gilbert: Hahaha
Rayne Orange: I love that. And so Natalia, you've got an interest in talking with people from a Catholic background about Jesus. And so why is that something that's so important to you?
Natalia: There are two reasons. The first one is that I grew up in Catholic country. So it was my environment. But my parents, they both were Christians before they met. They got married. So it's part of also of our testimony how both families got engaged with Jesus through mission. And I've seen so many beautiful testimonies from, for example, the part of my grandfather from my parent, my father's side. He was a very devoted person, very loving and everything, but you can do a lot of things and not having the spirit or the courage motivation. And that's what ⁓ my family and I always want to share about the good news of the gospel.
Rayne Orange: That's a really beautiful legacy. And it's wonderful that you get to have that in your family environment. And it totally makes sense that having that as a part of your upbringing and in your culture that you'd want to share with the people that you grew up with because you love them. And so can I ask, ⁓ can you tell us about someone you've met from a Roman Catholic background at university and what kind of Christian conversations you were able to have with them?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah.
Natalia: Yeah, for sure. So many people, it was my file. because also in where I grew up, at the beginning there was no Christians, not even a church. So my parents used, my mother is a dentist and they both used the, how do you say that, waiting room for the dentistry business to make small study clubs or study, Bible study clubs with patients.
Mark Gilbert: Mm-hmm.
Natalia: And also at school I was the only one who was not Catholic. I didn't have this subject religion, but ethics, which meant just to do my homework, nothing more actually. And what I've seen is that Catholics, have, they fear the Lord, but it's the wrong Lord. And nowadays it's a switch because ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, wonderful.
Rayne Orange: well.
Mark Gilbert: Mm-hmm.
Natalia: the generation said they are very open spiritually and they want to engage with the personal Jesus but not with the institution. And that is a good point that didn't happen when I studied at university for example where there was it was very difficult to find classmates who wanted to join the Bible study clubs that we had on campus. And yeah it's
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Natalia: when I studied at university for example it was very difficult to find classmates who wanted to join the Bible study clubs that we had on campus.
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah, they are very friendly people, very nice and very ⁓ obsessed with going to heaven and having this fear for death, for example. And for them it's very, very difficult to understand that you can read the Bible by yourself. have a friend who said to me, I was told by my priest from my town that the Bible was very difficult to understand. So have a friend who said to me, I was told by my
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Natalia: priest from my town that the Bible was very difficult to understand. So please just hear the Catholics from the church and don't ever it it's too much for you. So when she converted to Christ, she had to preach herself, yeah, I can read the there's not a problem, okay, I intellectually capable to do that. please just hear me or hear the Catholics from the church and ever try it because it's too much for you. So when she converted to Christ, she had to deal with ⁓ things that she ⁓ learned. ⁓ had to preach herself, yeah, I can read the Bible, there's not a problem, it's okay, ⁓ am intellectually able and capable to do that. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Hmm ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Natalia: Yeah, it's a battle because they use the same language. And sometimes you think you are talking about the same issues, but it's not the case. yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Thank
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: We will be right back.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: It's extraordinary isn't it at university when we have all of the skills to learn and read and interpret and assess texts because that's what we're dealing with most of the time at university. People still have this perception that reading the Bible and understanding what God's saying from the directly is too difficult for me. It's extraordinary.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah, I think sometimes I think in way it's good to know we have a common book, even though we don't have this deuterocanonical book. ⁓ But because they are used to it, they have it and they become a Bible when they do the within Spanish communion when they are 12, I think, or more or 10. ⁓ I don't know. I don't remember.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalia: But ⁓ they're used to the book, they have it, but they don't read it. And it is like an old one. ⁓ And most of them, they like, for example, in Andalusia in the south of Spain, most of Spaniards, they like the folklore, the traditions, the music, the passion, the feelings, the emotions you got from their meetings and processions. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Yes? Yes? Yes. Yes.
Natalia: And that is something they want to keep, but not really to have anything to do with the religion itself. It's more something cultural. so even if you want to, you're a Spaniard, for example, or Chilean, and you become a Christian, it's like almost changing your passport, because it's part of your identity, your religion.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yes. it's.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Yes.
Rayne Orange: And so you mentioned before, Natalia, that ⁓ we can sometimes be using the same words, but we talking about totally different things. So that sounds like a real difficulty that people can face in talking to people from a Catholic background about their faith. What are any tips that you have to navigate?
Natalia: to listen and to ask questions. think it would be a kind of confrontative to tell them or to ask them, please show me that in Bible, because that's a no-go. So it's better perhaps to use logical thinking, but also try to point to some Bible verses ⁓ to spend time with them. I think even if you are not Catholic, you are an atheist or Muslim, to spend time with people, to be friendly, to really help.
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Natalia: And one of the best things you can get from a Christian is to point you to Jesus, which means you need him and not to make them believe that they do are children of God, what they all say. They even say that we all, all humanity, ⁓ are Christians or are in heaven because we want all to be good people. So ⁓ I think spend time and to just listen and yeah. Yeah, patients also, because they don't know what they're talking about. Some of them, but I think, I would say the average is 99 % of my Catholic friends, don't, they just go to weddings, funerals, to baptisms. Easter and Christmas, perhaps very, very low rate and they don't know what they believe actually.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. And
Natalia: Which is hard to say, right? It's not fun.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, absolutely. And so what are the things about the university setting that make it easier for people to share with their Catholic friends about Jesus?
Mark Gilbert: Thank
Natalia: One thing is that it's all well. Yeah, can you can talk about ⁓ everything you want to. ⁓ In my generation, it was easier to be different. Now you have to be very sensitive with ⁓ this ⁓ hate speech and so on. It's another thing. ⁓ But yeah, another thing is to be coherent, be honest. Many ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Hmm. and
Natalia: I found it very special that we stand for what we believed and we were able to be on the entrance of the university with Bibles or with New Testaments or inviting people to, I don't know if you see that in Australia, but in Europe through IFOS, International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, there was a theater of the Book of Mark.
Mark Gilbert: Yes.
Natalia: And so just that when your classmates see that you are there and you don't care about what others believe or think about you, your image, that's also testimony. But for example, in my university, we needed 20 years to be accepted as a legal association, even though the university was
Mark Gilbert: Yes. Yeah.
Natalia: in the modern era, Catholicism feel very, very present and they have power, political power and connections. And I remember one being asked to go to the, I don't know the name, the rector, you say that, the most important person of the university, of your campus. And it was a lady and she, Chancellor, okay. And she asked me, And I remember being asked to go to the most important person of the university, of your campus. And She received all the documents to be an association and she said, it is okay, you can join, but why this word biblical? We say grupos biblicos universitarios. And she was upset with that. So we didn't get it, She received all the documents to be an association and she said, it is okay, you can join, but why this word biblical? We say grupos biblicos universitarios. And she was upset with that. So we didn't get it, but this April, this year, they were officially an association. But on the personal level, yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Wow, fantastic!
Rayne Orange: That's wonderful.
Natalia: On the personal level, always can speak to people. are even more open than when you invite them to come to any gathering.
Rayne Orange: Mmm.
Mark Gilbert: So Natalia, even still there is suppression of Christian ⁓ experience, Christian groups ⁓ universities, Catholic ⁓ Is that what saying?
Natalia: Yeah, but it's very subtle. It's not seen, it's not any loan, but it's the culture. think it takes time till everything changes. And ⁓ at least in my university, for example, there are many teachers who are relatives. They knew each other and...
Mark Gilbert: That's Mm. Mm. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah. And it was a public university.
Rayne Orange: so Natalia. that interesting. The like public university still really pushing the Catholic thing, even though it's like ⁓ not a institution. ⁓ That's really I think, to what Australia is And so Natalia, I guess just in closing, what advice or encouragement do you have for the people who are listening to this podcast?
Natalia: I would say try to understand both worldviews, even your own one. other, because that's a way to avoid to, to, to talking at two different levels. ⁓ think it's to know that ⁓ first thing, second thing is to be generous. Cause the same way you were. ⁓ reached by the gospel, others also can find the light, can be found by Jesus' light. not to think that they don't need it or that they are sufficient, self-sufficient, because we are not anybody, so we all need the gospel every day. And also would say to look at people with mercy, with love, and to understand that they are carved up in their religiosity and the laws, the good deeds they have to do to earn the heaven. and that's a part of a very, that's very humanistic, very, ⁓ you always have to be improving to, and that's very exhausting, living as a lifestyle. other thing is not to, yeah, okay.
Mark Gilbert: Like, like to think on yourself all the time.
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Natalia: The other thing is, I think we also have in the evangelical or protestant church ⁓ non-believers. And we have to be aware that also in some people, very particular cases, they do have a faith in Christ and they just need time till they can break that. unity with the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps it's not that you feel always alarmed when you find a Catholic where you feel you have a spiritual fellowship. It could be possible. It's very rare. It's not very common. But when that happens, just use the opportunity to say, let's do what unifies us. ⁓ which read the Bible together. And that would be very nice. the other thing is also that the Bible says in Philippians 2, verse 3 and 5, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather in humility, value others above yourselves. And also try not to use the Bible to this cause, because we can find them if we want to.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: And it's not good to face them with this cruel reality that they are in a false institution or in a false religion. It's just better, I think, to ⁓ be with them ⁓ about Jesus and trying to discover Jesus more than discussing about things we know that they are false. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: rather than just tearing something down, you've also got to build something else.
Rayne Orange: That's really helpful, Natalia, and we just want to thank you again just so much for your time today and your expertise and just for your heart to tell people about Jesus. It's really beautiful.
Natalia: Thanks for your invitation too. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, thanks, Nathalia. So that was wonderful listening to Natalia and hearing how some of the experiences that ⁓ we've had in Australian universities are the same around the world in Chile and in Spain and in Germany, but also there are some differences and challenges that we don't face as much in Australia, particularly the kind of suppression of religion in some of those countries can be much harder.
Rayne Orange: Mm.
Mark Gilbert: ⁓ Yeah, so I thought that was terrific. What did you particularly take from Natalia's ⁓ conversation, Ray?
Rayne Orange: I think I just really loved how for her it's the community that she grew up in and that desire to reach them for Jesus and the willingness to be different even when everyone around you is Catholic. And so I think for us to think we've got the support of our Protestant and evangelical churches and hopefully we're plugged into good Bible study groups and to with that support be willing to go and to be.
Mark Gilbert: you Mmm. Mmm.
Rayne Orange: a source of light to our Catholic friends is just really encouraging for me.
Mark Gilbert: She didn't even have a church in her village, but through her mum and her dad, she held on to Jesus. It's wonderful to see.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, it's incredible.
Mark Gilbert: So would be great to ⁓ get together next time and yeah, just help get better equipped ⁓ understanding our Catholic friends and family so that we can love with the good news about Jesus ⁓ more clearly and more ⁓ Thanks, Rhon. See you next time.
Rayne Orange: Absolutely. Thanks Mark. See you next time.
Mark Gilbert: where we make sense of Catholicism and Christianity.
Rayne Orange: Hi Mark, it's so good to be together again. are we talking about today?
Mark Gilbert: This we're looking at the opportunities that going to university presents us with to have great gospel conversations people from a Catholic background. ⁓ In a moments, we're going to ⁓ joined by Natalia Reed, who's studied in university in Europe and is going to be coming to us live from Germany. So I'll be excited to hear some of her thoughts and observations from being a university student and a Christian over in Europe.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, and not everyone has had the opportunity to study at University, Mark, but why is it something that's important for us to think about and to look at?
Mark Gilbert: Hmm. Yeah, well in the city that I live in, 50 % of adults have spent time studying at university. So it covers a wide range of people and also anecdotally it seems to be a time where Catholics for the first time in their lives may be exposed to Protestant Christians and hear the gospel and that in the city that I live in, 50 % of adults have spent time studying at university. anecdotally it seems to be a time where Catholics for the first time in their lives may be exposed to Protestant Christians and hear the gospel
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: has a significant effect on Roman Catholics. And lots of Roman Catholics become Christians during their time at university because of their encounter with other Christians. So it's a keen time for Protestants and Catholics to be talking together about Jesus. lots of Roman Catholics become Christians during their time at university
Rayne Orange: Yeah, it really is one of those like ⁓ microcosms, isn't it? Where you can see this cross section of society and all these different people coming together where maybe they wouldn't before. So it is a really good opportunity.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. It sure is. Now you've had an opportunity to go to University, right? ⁓ What did you study and where did you study?
Rayne Orange: That makes me sound fancy. feel like, cause we just talk about Bible college, doesn't seem like university, ⁓ I am educated. ⁓ got the honor and pleasure of spending ⁓ years at Briercrest College and Seminary in Cairnport, Saskatchewan. ⁓ And studied a Bachelor of Arts in Youth Ministry with a minor in Psychology.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. How many Catholics were at that institution?
Rayne Orange: Yeah. There was actually one really outspoken Catholic who was practicing. There was one, because it's a Protestant, it's non-denominational, but it's a Protestant Bible college. And so the fact that there was even one Roman Catholic girl who came in and held on to that. But I did have other friends who were from a Roman Catholic background at college. And one family in particular, I'm thinking of all three of them actually went through college at Briercrest. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: One. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Rayne Orange: And it was really interesting seeing how they came in actually knowing quite little about the Bible and how God grew them and blessed them through that experience.
Mark Gilbert: So perhaps if you're keen to talk with Catholics about Jesus, don't go to a Protestant Bible college. Is that what you're saying?
Rayne Orange: Protestant Bible College. I think that's right. I think that's right. But my experience is pretty particular. Mark, you had more of the normal university experience. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what it was like for you when you were studying?
Mark Gilbert: It's been. There was nothing normal about my university experience, but I did study. I studied at the Sydney University for six years. I did a Bachelor of Medicine and a Bachelor of Surgery.
Rayne Orange: No? ⁓ cool. I didn't know. So you're not a surgeon.
Mark Gilbert: And then I also, ⁓ when I went through medicine, rather than it being a master's or a doctorate degree, it was a double bachelor degree. And the way that they ⁓ articulated the bachelor degree was that you got two bachelor degrees, a bachelor of medicine and a bachelor of surgery. We did very little surgery in our medical course
Rayne Orange: Okay. That's pretty cool. Very little surgery. So what was...
Mark Gilbert: That's what's written on my transcript.
Rayne Orange: Well, it's lovely to have on the wall anyways,
Mark Gilbert: to a theological college and got a Bachelor of Divinity as well, but there were no Catholics at my theological college, unfortunately. But there were lots when I was studying medicine.
Rayne Orange: so when you went to university, as we've talked about before, ⁓ that's kind of when encountered the gospel for the first time. So do you want to tell us a little bit about what that was like for you? you went to university, ⁓ that's when you encountered the gospel for the first time. So you want to tell us a little bit about what that was like for you?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, yeah, ah, yes, was wonderful. It was the first time I ever heard the Gospel. It was a really interesting and transformative time in my life. At the end of Year 12, as a committed Roman Catholic, I'd just met the Pope. He'd come to Australia in one of the World Youth Day events, and I was in the choir, I was a couple of rows away from him. One of my friends held his hand and waved his hand as he was singing one of the songs and I got to shake his hand as he walked down the aisle back to his Pope Mobile ⁓ to go on to his next event. That was in the year 1995, I think, from memory. ⁓ Yeah, so as a Roman Catholic, that's a bit of a high point, shaking hands with the Pope.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: ⁓ The other thing that had happened to me in that month is my Catholic high school teacher who taught me maths for seven years, who was a Christian, but I realised wasn't Roman Catholic, I went to a Roman Catholic school. At the end of our ⁓ year, at end of our schooling, before we were leaving to go to university, he shared something about his faith in Jesus.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: that had a really significant effect on me as well. So I've had these two really quite significant ⁓ experiences, one being a Catholic high point, another hearing about someone who wasn't Catholic, but had a real genuine faith in Jesus. And I went to university really curious. ⁓ And within the first week or so,
Rayne Orange: Mm.
Mark Gilbert: a couple of keen Christians, doing what Christians sometimes call walk up, where you walk up to people and see if people are interested in having a conversation about Jesus. I didn't know anything about that, but they came up to me and they asked me what I believed. And after 17 years in the Roman Catholic Church and being active and involved and meeting the Pope, I thought I could give them a pretty reasonable answer. And then they asked me, why did I believe that?
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And the best answer I could give was, well, that's what the priest says. And as a first year medical student, I felt a little bit uncomfortable there. I thought I should have been able to say more than that. Not to be art done though, I asked them what they believed and they were able to show me from the Bible what they believed. Now, growing up Catholic, I was convinced that the Bible belonged to the Catholic Church, would back up everything that I was taught and believed. I just didn't know it very well. So,
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Now, growing up Catholic, I was convinced that the Bible belonged to the Catholic would back up everything that I was taught and believed. I just didn't know it very well.
Rayne Orange: you you
Mark Gilbert: I decided to join a Bible study group to help these nice young Protestant blokes see where I was right and they were wrong. And that was where I first heard the Gospel.
Rayne Orange: Mm. It's just an incredible story. And I think it's one of those things where like good on those young guys for being bold and brave because walk up evangelism is really hard. And the new challenges is you're not always even allowed to do that anymore at university in the current day. So it's really awesome that they were able to do that. ⁓ Yeah. And that and to invite you into that Bible study. It's so special.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah! I don't think any university could stop you asking people what they believe. Universities are for the exploration and discussion of ideas. That's entirely appropriate. And generally, socially, if you ask someone what they believe and they give you a reasonable answer, often the person will go, well, I've done lots of talking. It's a bit socially inappropriate. What do you believe? And you know, you've got open slather.
Rayne Orange: Mm. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely.
Mark Gilbert: to talk about what you believe and why you believe it. So, yeah, God help us if you can't share the gospel with people at university. ⁓ yeah. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Mm. ⁓ absolutely. Sorry, think I, just to clarify, I think people absolutely have individual onus, but I do believe that say groups like AFES, which is Australian Educational Fellowship, is that what it stands for?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students.
Rayne Orange: Wonderful. I think they've been limited on what kind of events they can do in campus in recent years. I was talking to a friend about it recently. But yeah, absolutely. And I think for people to take those opportunities, to talk to people in the coffee line, and to really take advantage of getting to know the people around you that aren't just the people you've walked in knowing is really, great. And so this worked for you, Mark. But can you tell us
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Rayne Orange: some the things that ⁓ let those happen and make it such a rich time for the development of relationships and sharing the gospel.
Mark Gilbert: then Absolutely. There are so many opportunities for talking with Catholics about Jesus. One of the most important ones is curiosity. Catholics come to university, they're probably, depending on where they've grown up, many of them have never had a conversation with a Protestant about Jesus. Where I grow up, ⁓ 80 % of people that go to Catholic schools have a Catholic background. Catholics come to university, depending on where they've grown up, many of have never had a conversation with a Protestant about
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And only about one or two percent of people that go to Catholic schools would be evangelical Christians. So the chance of a Catholic person having a chat with a Protestant about Jesus is already very, very small. But then you get to university and Christians are everywhere and they're from quite visible and very accessible. And Catholics are curious. What do you believe? Why do you believe that? Why do you think that? We believe this. It's different. Why do you believe that? And particularly curiosity about
Rayne Orange: well. Mm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Bible ⁓ is a big thing that many Catholics come to university with. know, lovingly, whimsically, ⁓ you know, with good social skills, if you've got them, having those conversations with curious Catholics about Jesus gently, little bit by little bit, with your Bibles open, is an enormous opportunity ⁓ at university. But that's not the only
Rayne Orange: you Mm.
Mark Gilbert: opportunity at university. There are other opportunities as well. So we've talked a bit before about belonging being really important for Roman Catholics. Often they feel like they need to belong to a group in order to believe in Jesus and ⁓ a lot of Catholic theology points in that direction. So at university you already belong together in that you're doing the same.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: but there's all sorts of groups you can belong to with people from a Catholic background and develop and open those relationships to have Christian conversations with them. ⁓ You can invite Catholics to belong to Christian groups and that can be a transforming experience for Roman Catholics. ⁓ I spent a couple of years working as a Christian worker on a university campus and when people from a Roman Catholic background, it was wonderful.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. That's really cool.
Mark Gilbert: They're from a Roman Catholic background, would come to particularly camps and conferences and just be surrounded by a whole lot of people that are just singing about and praising Jesus and learning about him and working hard at living for Jesus. That experience can be completely transformative for people from a Roman Catholic background. So belonging to things at universities with Roman Catholics is so much easier. the experiences that you can share with people from a Roman Catholic background about Jesus are really ⁓ quite significant as well. I remember as a Roman Catholic going to the Christian prayer groups, we'd have them once a week and I'd get to university early and I'd pray with the Christians at the university and that experience really had a big impact on me as well. Music and singing, all those sorts of experiences that we kind of take the granted sometimes can be really transformative for people from a Roman Catholic background. But the other really good opportunity for Roman Catholics is ⁓ in our conversations with them about Jesus is the long term nature of those relationships that you start to develop at university.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: I've still got Catholic friends from university that I talked to. There was a fellow I had a conversation with just a week ago who was really working hard to do good things to please God even though he now said he was a non-practicing Catholic and we had a chat about no matter how hard he tried, no matter how good he was, what he needed to do is just to put his trust in Jesus. This is two 50 year old blokes having a chat.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: There was another fellow I caught up with a few months ago and we hadn't seen each other for 20 or 30 years and opportunities to talk about Jesus were just flowing and those long-term relationships where people can see that you live out your convictions throughout your whole life, ⁓ carry weight and continue to carry weight as people live their lives and
Rayne Orange: ⁓ wow. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: make mistakes and go through various traumas and experiences. The capacity to build those long-term relationships and be able to speak the gospel into all sorts of situations of people's lives is enormous. So it's just such a wonderful opportunity for Christians to meet Catholics, develop those relationships and share the thing that's most precious to us with them, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. That's really incredible, Mark. And I think it is. Those long term relationships are so important because even it's again, it's a bit different. But when I went to Bible College, I still have really good friends. And even though we were all at Bible College together, some of them are at different places in their walk with Jesus now. But I know that the opportunities will be there over the next, you know, God willing, when we're 50, we'll be having conversations about Jesus, talking about the good old days. And so.
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. When you're at uni, you've got time for those relationships and conversations. When your kids have grown up, if you do have kids, you've got more time for those conversations and relationships. When you have kids and getting them through school, it's really the focus is on the school itself. And it's harder to out beyond kind of school and work if you work.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Which is worth remembering because again, if you're in a culture where Catholic kids are educated separately from Protestant kids, which they are here in Australia, there's 20 or 30 years there where that whole group of people are isolated from Protestants and don't get to hear and experience the things that we know and experience through the Bible and through our faith in Jesus. So we've got to make even more
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: use of the opportunities that we have outside of that time. So university and retirement are both great opportunities for having great conversations with Catholics about Jesus.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. I've got another question for you then. So we've talked about the general university context, but I know like, say in Sydney, there's Australian Catholic University, and I'm assuming they would pull in more Catholics than other universities might. So is it a good option? Like should Protestants consider going to ACU for their studies so that they have those kinds of opportunities?
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely yes, and join a Protestant Christian group when you're there. ⁓ Most Catholic universities have to have a Protestant Christian group as part of their campus activities, as well as Muslim faith groups as well. So go to those universities, join a Protestant group so that you can be encouraged and learn more from the Bible, because that's the other great opportunity at university. You can learn to think and act as an adult Christian at university and you can delve more deeply into the scriptures and deal with and wrestle with some of those harder and deeper questions about life and God and yourself ⁓ at university because you've got time and opportunity to do that. So connect and form deep relationships.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: with Christian brothers and sisters at university and from those relationships it's a really great way to reach out to the Roman Catholics around you, even at Catholic universities. I think it's great idea,
Rayne Orange: Mm. Yeah, and it gives you something too that's ⁓ really clear that you can invite your Catholic friends to, because I think depending on what your church context is or having something on campus where there's regular meetings, it just makes it really easy for that initial invitation.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yes, sometimes Catholic institutions suppress Christians in what they're doing and how they're doing things. I remember when I was working at New South Wales University, there was a Catholic organisation that provided accommodation for people at the university and there were some Christians in that accommodation and they weren't allowed to go and take Bibles to
Rayne Orange: you
Mark Gilbert: their student peers within that accommodation. They weren't allowed to run Bible studies in their accommodation with their peers and friends. ⁓ And they were, it was quite difficult for a number of them to live out their Christian faith in those Catholic accommodation centres, which is, it's sad. ⁓ And it can happen more so when
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Catholicism is the dominant religion ⁓ in a country or a place. But, and it'll be interesting to hear from Natalia how she sees that ⁓ happening in Europe. But there can actually be pressure and even today persecution of Christians in Roman Catholic institutions.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: And I've seen a little bit of that firsthand even in Sydney.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, well, how did it go for you? Because I know that you talked about some of these people you're still having gospel conversations with, you 30 years later. But how has it been for the Roman Catholics that you went through university with?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we still meet and do social things together. We still have conversations. We share things about our lives together. We share about Jesus together. Yeah, I've seen a few of them become Christian, apart from myself from a Roman Catholic background through my friendship group. I've also seen a number of people from a Roman Catholic background become Christian.
Rayne Orange: Mmm.
Mark Gilbert: when I was working as a Christian worker on university campus and have continued relationships with them over years and decades. And it's been wonderful to see how the gospel that they first heard at university has found root and ⁓ has held onto them, Jesus has held onto them through decades of life and all of the ups and downs of life. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: So yeah, there's a few men and women that I saw become Christians at university that are still Christians 20, 30 years later, which is wonderful. It's great to see.
Rayne Orange: That's really cool. Yeah. It'll be interesting to ask Natalia as well because ⁓ in Europe is this is just me wondering things you tell me if you know, but is the like the population more Catholic than here because we're so far away from Rome and the old the old places.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes. That's a really, really good and interesting question. I think, and I've had conversations with Christian missionaries in Rome and in Italy, ⁓ Sydney is more Catholic than Rome.
Rayne Orange: No way.
Mark Gilbert: Absolutely. In the sense that the commitment to the spiritual aspects of Roman Catholicism in Sydney is greater than the commitment to the spiritual aspects of Roman Catholicism in Rome. Part of the reason for that is that in Sydney,
Rayne Orange: That actually shocks me. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: Most Catholics, not all Catholics, go through the Catholic school system. So for 13 years of their education, they're in an environment where they're clearly taught Roman Catholicism. In the Rome school system, it's a secular education with Catholic priests and nuns coming in at various points in people's education to give the Catholic understanding of faith.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Protestant teaching is excluded within the Catholic education system in Italy. It's the Catholic priests and nuns that have almost an exclusive ⁓ role in educating kids in school about faith. ⁓ And a number of my Protestant ⁓ minister friends in Rome ⁓ experience a degree of persecution and exclusion and support.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: oppression by the state ⁓ of Italy because the state of Italy considers itself to be Roman Catholic. So people will identify culturally and nationalistically as Roman Catholic, but actually be less spiritually Roman Catholic than people in Sydney. It's a fascinating thing to see.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Mm. It is really interesting because I think that idea of belonging we've spoken heaps about on the podcast is just so important. And I was thinking because we're getting ready to go to Italy shortly and ⁓ I was reading one of Leonardo Di Chirico's books in preparation for the trip and he was saying how when his parents had missionaries knock on their door, Protestant missionaries for the first time, they asked if they were Christians and their response was, well, we're Italian, so we're Catholic.
Mark Gilbert: You ⁓
Rayne Orange: And it was really tied up in that sense of, because I'm Italian, this is who I am. Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ That's really interesting.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, yeah. Even the concept for me of being Christian and not Catholic was a foreign one to me growing up until I heard from my Christian maths teacher. Because for me growing up, being Christian was being Catholic. That was all I knew.
Rayne Orange: Mmm. ⁓ wow. That's one of the things that I found really interesting is ⁓ the Catholics I knew growing up, think because it's maybe similar to Italy, but they didn't seem that invested in the spiritual side of it. was it was maybe who their family heritage was. They went through all of the sacraments, but they didn't really believe it all. ⁓ Whereas it's interesting having my Catholic friends now and hearing them call themselves Christians, because I think like
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Rayne Orange: At least where I grew up, people really understood that there was... I think they think there's a diff... Yeah, or at least that's not the language they would use. Even if maybe they'd say, ⁓ I guess I'm a Christian, but they're Catholic. Whereas now I have my friends referring a lot more to, ⁓ know, the Christians, this or I'm a Christian or as a Christian. And it's really taken me by surprise.
Mark Gilbert: difference. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah, again it's part of that idea that the true place to find Christianity is within the Roman Catholic Church. So we're all Christians, we're all Catholic is the kind of Roman Catholic theological position. And so rather than using the word Catholic now to include everyone within Roman Catholicism, Catholics are trying to use the word Christian to include everyone within Roman
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Catholicism meaning unified as Christians, which ultimately for Catholics means being unified as Catholics. So just got to be aware of that shift in language that has been happening over the last 10 years or so. It's not what the words are, it's what the words mean. So what do you mean by being Christian? What does being Christian mean for you?
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Who is Jesus? It's not that you're follower of Jesus. Who is Jesus? How do you know Jesus? All those sorts of things. Because for a Catholic, they know Jesus primarily through the piece of bread in the Eucharist, which we talked about recently.
Rayne Orange: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, it's true. And it's also interesting thinking about which is also probably important for people in universities encountering Roman Catholics maybe for the first time is how do you adjust your language so that they understand clearly what you're saying as well? Which can seem like hard work because you know, like we've talked about the idea of grace being that God saves people who don't deserve it without their help
Mark Gilbert: Mmm. brought. That's a yeah. Mmm.
Rayne Orange: and how it's like as Protestants, we're so used to thinking about grace, but how when we're speaking to our Catholic friends, we actually have to change the way that we're speaking so that it's clear what we're saying.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Anyway... So when I share the Gospel with Catholics, I don't say you've been saved by grace through faith. I say Jesus saves people who don't deserve it without their help. Do you trust that?
Rayne Orange: Mm. Mm.
Mark Gilbert: Again, you're using slightly different words, communicating the same idea, but you're doing it in a way that's much clearer for Roman Catholics. God saves people who don't deserve it without their help. Do you trust that?
Rayne Orange: Mm. And what good news? What good news? That is what it's all about.
Mark Gilbert: That's what it's all about, right? That's what it's all about. Alright, well, I think it's time to hear from Natalia.
Rayne Orange: Absolutely. Hi, Natalia. Thank you so much for being here with us today. If we could just start, just tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us what you're currently doing and what you've done in universities.
Natalia: My name is Natalia and I studied in Madrid Dentistry. That's it. ⁓ was living in Chile. I was born in... Right, yeah. And my name... Yeah, for sure. But my parents, were both evangelized by missionaries. One from the United States, they were Presbyterians. And from the side of my mother was an Anglican church. Very thankful for you all English speaker countries.
Mark Gilbert: You're born in Chile. That is even more Catholic. Yes. So English is your third language, is it, Natalia?
Natalia: ⁓ I would say, yeah, you speak Spanish, then you learn ⁓ German, where I live right now. But English was always the language we got at school instead of French.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Rayne Orange: Can I just say as someone that only speaks one language, I'm always blown away by people that can be fluent across multiple languages. So well done. And what a combination.
Natalia: It's good to have eternal life to be able to learn more because it's never a finish or task.
Mark Gilbert: Hahaha
Rayne Orange: I love that. And so Natalia, you've got an interest in talking with people from a Catholic background about Jesus. And so why is that something that's so important to you?
Natalia: There are two reasons. The first one is that I grew up in Catholic country. So it was my environment. But my parents, they both were Christians before they met. They got married. So it's part of also of our testimony how both families got engaged with Jesus through mission. And I've seen so many beautiful testimonies from, for example, the part of my grandfather from my parent, my father's side. He was a very devoted person, very loving and everything, but you can do a lot of things and not having the spirit or the courage motivation. And that's what ⁓ my family and I always want to share about the good news of the gospel.
Rayne Orange: That's a really beautiful legacy. And it's wonderful that you get to have that in your family environment. And it totally makes sense that having that as a part of your upbringing and in your culture that you'd want to share with the people that you grew up with because you love them. And so can I ask, ⁓ can you tell us about someone you've met from a Roman Catholic background at university and what kind of Christian conversations you were able to have with them?
Mark Gilbert: Yeah.
Natalia: Yeah, for sure. So many people, it was my file. because also in where I grew up, at the beginning there was no Christians, not even a church. So my parents used, my mother is a dentist and they both used the, how do you say that, waiting room for the dentistry business to make small study clubs or study, Bible study clubs with patients.
Mark Gilbert: Mm-hmm.
Natalia: And also at school I was the only one who was not Catholic. I didn't have this subject religion, but ethics, which meant just to do my homework, nothing more actually. And what I've seen is that Catholics, have, they fear the Lord, but it's the wrong Lord. And nowadays it's a switch because ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, wonderful.
Rayne Orange: well.
Mark Gilbert: Mm-hmm.
Natalia: the generation said they are very open spiritually and they want to engage with the personal Jesus but not with the institution. And that is a good point that didn't happen when I studied at university for example where there was it was very difficult to find classmates who wanted to join the Bible study clubs that we had on campus. And yeah it's
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Natalia: when I studied at university for example it was very difficult to find classmates who wanted to join the Bible study clubs that we had on campus.
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah, they are very friendly people, very nice and very ⁓ obsessed with going to heaven and having this fear for death, for example. And for them it's very, very difficult to understand that you can read the Bible by yourself. have a friend who said to me, I was told by my priest from my town that the Bible was very difficult to understand. So have a friend who said to me, I was told by my
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Natalia: priest from my town that the Bible was very difficult to understand. So please just hear the Catholics from the church and don't ever it it's too much for you. So when she converted to Christ, she had to preach herself, yeah, I can read the there's not a problem, okay, I intellectually capable to do that. please just hear me or hear the Catholics from the church and ever try it because it's too much for you. So when she converted to Christ, she had to deal with ⁓ things that she ⁓ learned. ⁓ had to preach herself, yeah, I can read the Bible, there's not a problem, it's okay, ⁓ am intellectually able and capable to do that. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Hmm ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Natalia: Yeah, it's a battle because they use the same language. And sometimes you think you are talking about the same issues, but it's not the case. yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Thank
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: We will be right back.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: It's extraordinary isn't it at university when we have all of the skills to learn and read and interpret and assess texts because that's what we're dealing with most of the time at university. People still have this perception that reading the Bible and understanding what God's saying from the directly is too difficult for me. It's extraordinary.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah, I think sometimes I think in way it's good to know we have a common book, even though we don't have this deuterocanonical book. ⁓ But because they are used to it, they have it and they become a Bible when they do the within Spanish communion when they are 12, I think, or more or 10. ⁓ I don't know. I don't remember.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalia: But ⁓ they're used to the book, they have it, but they don't read it. And it is like an old one. ⁓ And most of them, they like, for example, in Andalusia in the south of Spain, most of Spaniards, they like the folklore, the traditions, the music, the passion, the feelings, the emotions you got from their meetings and processions. ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Yes? Yes? Yes. Yes.
Natalia: And that is something they want to keep, but not really to have anything to do with the religion itself. It's more something cultural. so even if you want to, you're a Spaniard, for example, or Chilean, and you become a Christian, it's like almost changing your passport, because it's part of your identity, your religion.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah. Yes. it's.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Mark Gilbert: Yes.
Rayne Orange: And so you mentioned before, Natalia, that ⁓ we can sometimes be using the same words, but we talking about totally different things. So that sounds like a real difficulty that people can face in talking to people from a Catholic background about their faith. What are any tips that you have to navigate?
Natalia: to listen and to ask questions. think it would be a kind of confrontative to tell them or to ask them, please show me that in Bible, because that's a no-go. So it's better perhaps to use logical thinking, but also try to point to some Bible verses ⁓ to spend time with them. I think even if you are not Catholic, you are an atheist or Muslim, to spend time with people, to be friendly, to really help.
Mark Gilbert: Hmm.
Natalia: And one of the best things you can get from a Christian is to point you to Jesus, which means you need him and not to make them believe that they do are children of God, what they all say. They even say that we all, all humanity, ⁓ are Christians or are in heaven because we want all to be good people. So ⁓ I think spend time and to just listen and yeah. Yeah, patients also, because they don't know what they're talking about. Some of them, but I think, I would say the average is 99 % of my Catholic friends, don't, they just go to weddings, funerals, to baptisms. Easter and Christmas, perhaps very, very low rate and they don't know what they believe actually.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah.
Rayne Orange: Hmm. And
Natalia: Which is hard to say, right? It's not fun.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, absolutely. And so what are the things about the university setting that make it easier for people to share with their Catholic friends about Jesus?
Mark Gilbert: Thank
Natalia: One thing is that it's all well. Yeah, can you can talk about ⁓ everything you want to. ⁓ In my generation, it was easier to be different. Now you have to be very sensitive with ⁓ this ⁓ hate speech and so on. It's another thing. ⁓ But yeah, another thing is to be coherent, be honest. Many ⁓
Mark Gilbert: Hmm. and
Natalia: I found it very special that we stand for what we believed and we were able to be on the entrance of the university with Bibles or with New Testaments or inviting people to, I don't know if you see that in Australia, but in Europe through IFOS, International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, there was a theater of the Book of Mark.
Mark Gilbert: Yes.
Natalia: And so just that when your classmates see that you are there and you don't care about what others believe or think about you, your image, that's also testimony. But for example, in my university, we needed 20 years to be accepted as a legal association, even though the university was
Mark Gilbert: Yes. Yeah.
Natalia: in the modern era, Catholicism feel very, very present and they have power, political power and connections. And I remember one being asked to go to the, I don't know the name, the rector, you say that, the most important person of the university, of your campus. And it was a lady and she, Chancellor, okay. And she asked me, And I remember being asked to go to the most important person of the university, of your campus. And She received all the documents to be an association and she said, it is okay, you can join, but why this word biblical? We say grupos biblicos universitarios. And she was upset with that. So we didn't get it, She received all the documents to be an association and she said, it is okay, you can join, but why this word biblical? We say grupos biblicos universitarios. And she was upset with that. So we didn't get it, but this April, this year, they were officially an association. But on the personal level, yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Wow, fantastic!
Rayne Orange: That's wonderful.
Natalia: On the personal level, always can speak to people. are even more open than when you invite them to come to any gathering.
Rayne Orange: Mmm.
Mark Gilbert: So Natalia, even still there is suppression of Christian ⁓ experience, Christian groups ⁓ universities, Catholic ⁓ Is that what saying?
Natalia: Yeah, but it's very subtle. It's not seen, it's not any loan, but it's the culture. think it takes time till everything changes. And ⁓ at least in my university, for example, there are many teachers who are relatives. They knew each other and...
Mark Gilbert: That's Mm. Mm. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: Yeah. And it was a public university.
Rayne Orange: so Natalia. that interesting. The like public university still really pushing the Catholic thing, even though it's like ⁓ not a institution. ⁓ That's really I think, to what Australia is And so Natalia, I guess just in closing, what advice or encouragement do you have for the people who are listening to this podcast?
Natalia: I would say try to understand both worldviews, even your own one. other, because that's a way to avoid to, to, to talking at two different levels. ⁓ think it's to know that ⁓ first thing, second thing is to be generous. Cause the same way you were. ⁓ reached by the gospel, others also can find the light, can be found by Jesus' light. not to think that they don't need it or that they are sufficient, self-sufficient, because we are not anybody, so we all need the gospel every day. And also would say to look at people with mercy, with love, and to understand that they are carved up in their religiosity and the laws, the good deeds they have to do to earn the heaven. and that's a part of a very, that's very humanistic, very, ⁓ you always have to be improving to, and that's very exhausting, living as a lifestyle. other thing is not to, yeah, okay.
Mark Gilbert: Like, like to think on yourself all the time.
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Natalia: The other thing is, I think we also have in the evangelical or protestant church ⁓ non-believers. And we have to be aware that also in some people, very particular cases, they do have a faith in Christ and they just need time till they can break that. unity with the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps it's not that you feel always alarmed when you find a Catholic where you feel you have a spiritual fellowship. It could be possible. It's very rare. It's not very common. But when that happens, just use the opportunity to say, let's do what unifies us. ⁓ which read the Bible together. And that would be very nice. the other thing is also that the Bible says in Philippians 2, verse 3 and 5, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather in humility, value others above yourselves. And also try not to use the Bible to this cause, because we can find them if we want to.
Rayne Orange: Hmm.
Natalia: And it's not good to face them with this cruel reality that they are in a false institution or in a false religion. It's just better, I think, to ⁓ be with them ⁓ about Jesus and trying to discover Jesus more than discussing about things we know that they are false. ⁓
Rayne Orange: Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: rather than just tearing something down, you've also got to build something else.
Rayne Orange: That's really helpful, Natalia, and we just want to thank you again just so much for your time today and your expertise and just for your heart to tell people about Jesus. It's really beautiful.
Natalia: Thanks for your invitation too. Yeah.
Mark Gilbert: Yeah, thanks, Nathalia. So that was wonderful listening to Natalia and hearing how some of the experiences that ⁓ we've had in Australian universities are the same around the world in Chile and in Spain and in Germany, but also there are some differences and challenges that we don't face as much in Australia, particularly the kind of suppression of religion in some of those countries can be much harder.
Rayne Orange: Mm.
Mark Gilbert: ⁓ Yeah, so I thought that was terrific. What did you particularly take from Natalia's ⁓ conversation, Ray?
Rayne Orange: I think I just really loved how for her it's the community that she grew up in and that desire to reach them for Jesus and the willingness to be different even when everyone around you is Catholic. And so I think for us to think we've got the support of our Protestant and evangelical churches and hopefully we're plugged into good Bible study groups and to with that support be willing to go and to be.
Mark Gilbert: you Mmm. Mmm.
Rayne Orange: a source of light to our Catholic friends is just really encouraging for me.
Mark Gilbert: She didn't even have a church in her village, but through her mum and her dad, she held on to Jesus. It's wonderful to see.
Rayne Orange: Yeah, it's incredible.
Mark Gilbert: So would be great to ⁓ get together next time and yeah, just help get better equipped ⁓ understanding our Catholic friends and family so that we can love with the good news about Jesus ⁓ more clearly and more ⁓ Thanks, Rhon. See you next time.
Rayne Orange: Absolutely. Thanks Mark. See you next time.
