Does God Hate?

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Welcome to the

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Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast.

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Every two weeks, we post podcast versions
of one of our free training videos.

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Or you can access our videos now

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at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

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Enjoy the podcast.

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Hello and welcome to Beyond Ordinary
Women.

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I'll be your host, Sharifa Stevens,
and I am thrilled to be talking to

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Dr. Nika Spaulding.

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(I love saying, doctor.)

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Yeah, that is true, I suppose.

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It catches me off guard every time.

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Kay called me that the last time, I was
like, “Oh, yeah, I did do that, I guess.

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Yeah. All right.” Yeah, you did that.

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And it is my absolute joy

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to use the honorific
with all of my friends who have earned it.

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Thank you, friend.

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Today I have the honor of interviewing

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Dr. Nika Spaulding.

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And I want to tell you
a little bit about her.

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Nika Spaulding is a proud graduate of both
the University of Oklahoma

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with a Bachelor's in Zoology,

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and Dallas Theological Seminary
with a Masters of Theology.

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She recently completed her

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Doctorate of Ministry
from Northern Seminary,

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focusing on the background
context of the New Testament.

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She currently works as an editor
for a nonprofit organization

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that helps people better understand
their Bibles.

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You can follow or connect with

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Dr. Nika at her website, NikaSpaulding.com

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or her Substack account at NikaSpaulding.

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She believes in her bones

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that God loves you.

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And that's a wonderful last line. Yes.

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It's so true.

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Today our topic is about hate.

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Yeah.

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So we have all heard

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“hate the sin,
love the sinner” or some such tome.

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So this phrase I want to talk about
is this helpful for the Christian?

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Is it even a proverb from the Bible?

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Is God teaching us to hate?

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This is our topic for today
and I would just like to jump in.

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Yeah.

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So my first question for you, doctor, is
where does this phrase come from?

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Yeah, that's a really good question.

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So I want to say there are
there seems to be some wisdom literature

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in the Proverbs and something
where you could maybe deduce some sort of

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like saying like this,
like this doesn't come from the Bible, but

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maybe you could take some passages
and make a corollary.

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What's interesting
is some people accredited it

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to an old theologian Augustine
and he wrote in one of his works,

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he says, “With love for mankind and hatred
for sins.” And so he's sort of is and,

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you know, you got to assume, Agustine,

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maybe getting this from his own approach
to the Scriptures.

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And so there seems to be something
in the ether about our inheritance

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as Christians, both in church history
and in the Bible, that leads reasonable

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people to conclude this is a good posture,
that we should hate sin

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and yet love,
love people at some capacity.

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And so where the actual phrase, though
I don't know, I couldn't track it down.

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Like who exactly?

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You know,

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there's always these phrases that exist
and you're like,

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was it Homer Simpson that first said that,
or was Homer Simpson quoting?

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Was it Benjamin Franklin?
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

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Where did this come from? Yeah, yeah.

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So I'm sure some pastor did a really good
job creating this pithy saying.

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And it had sticking abilities.

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So here we are still talking about it
all these years later.

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But yeah.

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So okay.

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You mentioned that
this is something that could be a

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corollary, but

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do you have examples of that
in various genres of scripture?

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Yeah, that's such a good question
because I think when you hear hate, that's

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one of those words that, I said it,
I believe in my bones, that God loves you.

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And for years
I've said this and people go,

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how can you be so confident God loves me.

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And I've often said, well, it's
because this is who God is.

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God is love.

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And so I can be very confident
God loves you.

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And yet then people go, “Well then, does

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God ever hate?” And so we do have passages
that talk about what God hates.

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And so one of them, like Proverbs 6:16-19,
I'm going to read it really quickly

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because it's kind of one of these
like really poetic, beautiful,

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but it turns at the end
in a way that I think is surprising.

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It says “There are six things the Lord
hates, seven that are detestable to him

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haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands
that shed innocent blood,

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a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet
that are quick to rush into evil,

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a false witness
who pours out lies, and a person

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who stirs up conflict in the community.”
And I think that's really fascinating

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because it starts with God

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kind of hates these things
that bring about chaos and destruction.

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And then at the end,

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you kind of turn the shift
and you're like, whoa,

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God hates a person who does these things.

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And this isn't the only place
you see it in.

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Psalm 5 talks about it.

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There's a famous passage, of course,
you know, “Jacob I've loved, Esau

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I've hated.” And so we wrestle
with these places of there are.

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You can read the Bible and get a sense
that there are things God hates.

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But what do we do with the fact
that there are passages

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that seems to suggest God hates people?

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Because Sharifa I don't know about you,
but I was growing up if I as a kid,

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if I said I hated somebody,
my mom was quick: “We don't hate anybody.”

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And you know, when I was six,
I was like, “Yes, I do.

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I do hate that,” you know.

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And so I'm like maybe you don’t.

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And so these are hard things.

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I think
when you're coming to the Scriptures

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and reading these things in the Word.
Yeah.

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Especially because I,

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as Christians were called to follow Jesus.

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We're called to be indwelt with
the Holy Spirit, to submit to the Father.

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So if

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the Trinity hates...

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Yeah.

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...we should be following God.

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Yeah. Right?

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So this becomes a thing of nuance
and could we be really real?

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Yeah.

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Because we are in an era

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in the United States specifically where

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hate is being fomented.

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Right?

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But not only is it being fomented,
it's also being associated

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with following Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.

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So as a Christian

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who believes that God is love,

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but also contends with

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themes in Scripture that are hate themes

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coming from the Lord, how do we
how do we make our way through this?

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How do we decipher what is true
and what is false, and

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apply it to the Bible

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and also apply it to our lives,
the way we deal with other people?

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Yeah, that's so good.

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And it's a huge question and unfair.

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So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Take it as you will.

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We signed up for this,
you know what I mean?

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Like I willingly said
let's talk about hate.

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You know, Kay said, “you want to talk
about hate?” And I said, “oh!”

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You know,
first I want to say we do live in it.

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I want to affirm and double down on what
you said about a culture that foments.

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And I do want to say, you know, it's
interesting is so much of the hatred

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that is being encouraged
is almost indiscriminate

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or based on things like ethnicity,
religion, nationality.

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To which I would say,
I don't find that in this list here.

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Right?

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Sort of these things that God is saying

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he hates are things
that are bringing destruction.

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Now there's still going to be people who
go fine, then find me the lying person.

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I hate them.

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And to which I would say the first step
when you come across Scripture is context

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is absolutely essential to
really understand what's happening here.

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And the reason why I say that is wisdom
literature should not be read

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the same way you read narrative,
or the same way you read legal literature,

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and especially like Proverbs,
is a great example of why

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you have to read it
with nuance and meditation.

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Because in Proverbs itself,
this is so beautiful.

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What the writer of Proverbs does

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is later in the Proverbs
it'll say, “Answer a fool

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according to his folly.”
And in the very next verse

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it'll say, “Do
not answer a fool according to his folly,”

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to which we would say “Does Scripture

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contradict itself?”
What are we supposed to do here?

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Did they get, you know, were they
just exhausted and forgot what they said?

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And then the next verse, you know.

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And so one of the things I would say
is wisdom

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literature, which is the Proverbs
and the Psalms that I mentioned,

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they are designed to be meditated
upon, to slow you down.

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They are short, pithy sayings
that are not always true,

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but they are invitations to say,
this is often how the world works,

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and these are the values
that God is trying to instill in a people

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he wants to make wise.

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And so one of the things that makes use of
is polarization.

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There's Lady Wisdom, there's Lady Folly.

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Lady Wisdom cries out to you. Lady
Folly cries out to you.

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There's only two paths to which
I would say, yeah, there's only two paths.

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How do you know which one?

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How do you know which one to walk?
All of these things!

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So one with Proverbs:

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If you were to cite Proverbs and go,
The Bible says it, that settles it,

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I'm good, I would invite you to say, “Then
what do you do with the passages that,

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like I mentioned earlier,
that directly contradict each other?”

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What do you do with that?

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The other psalm, you know,
I mentioned Psalm 5.

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Psalms are dramatic.

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They are a prayer book of a people
who are experiencing lament, grief.

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They are often writing as if

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from the viewpoint of God
in a way that humans can understand.

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So one of the first things
I would invite anybody to,

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and they come to a Bible verse and maybe
something inside of you testifies, “This

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makes me a little uncomfortable
to hear God hates because I've lied.

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I've had haughty eyes.

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I do these things.” That's
where I would invite you to consider,

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“Hey,
maybe the genre is speaking in hyperbole

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and drama in order to heighten
what God is trying to communicate.”

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That in order to say,
hey, “God takes these things so seriously

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that you would spill innocent blood,
that you would be arrogant--that

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God takes it so seriously, that he uses
language that’s so dramatic to stop you in

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your tracks is an invitation
to read the Bible,

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I think the way God intended it,
but it's not literal,

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and I know that makes people
uncomfortable.” I know a lot of people

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just got really uncomfortable listening,
but literal doesn't mean it's not true.

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You can tell a story
that's true, but it's not literal.

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Distinguish between literal and true.

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Yeah.

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So if you wanted to teach your kids
a valuable lesson about, you know,

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not lying, you might tell them a story
about the boy who cried wolf.

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That's not a literal story.

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It's not a historical story,
but it is a true story--that

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if you consistently do not tell the truth,
that perhaps in a moment of great

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need, people won't take you seriously
because you've broken so much trust.

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And so there are parts of the Bible

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that, as the community of God's
people have received the scriptures,

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the original community
did not think to themselves, {Oh,

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these are literal, absolute,
always true statements

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about how the world works.” Instead,
they recognize this is wisdom literature.

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And we know this
because we've seen how the community

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has received the scriptures, wrestled
through these things.

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You know, they're going, hey, here's
how do we navigate these things?

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And so that's one thing, as I would say,
as you read the scriptures,

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reading them within the genre
that they're intended to be read

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is critical for understanding
what God is trying to communicate.

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Okay.

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So consider the genre is very,

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very important.

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Now there is also--say
you're encountering hate

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outside of wisdom literature
outside of the Psalms.

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You're in the history,
and you're reading about

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God saying,
“Wipe out the Hittites, or the Amorites

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or the Jebusites.”
That also sounds like, hey, so how do we

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continue to contextualize,

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hate, love,

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the praxis of

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God's relationship to people

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in light of the whole canon of Scripture
in a way

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that doesn't that continues to

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honor the Bible

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and honor the people made in God's image?

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Yeah, such a good question. Does
that makes sense?

242
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Absolutely. Yeah.

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Such a good question.

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Because so I want to clearly say
for everybody living at home,

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I love God's Word.

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I've spent my entire adult life
studying it.

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There's a reason I have a doctorate.

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I have spent many, many summers
in cramped closets all over the world,

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photographing manuscripts,
making sure the Bible is preserved.

250
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So when I tell you, like I wrestle
with these things because of the way

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that I want to really honor
the Scriptures, which means I have to,

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I have to receive them with some measure
of humility that says, “Hey,

253
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I am going to wrestle through these
things, and I need to receive them

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in a way that allows me to allow the full
message of the Scripture coming up.

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So perfect example.

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You talked about the conquest chapters.

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One of the things that gives me
a lot of encouragement is for a long time,

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those chapters in Joshua
especially really bothered me.

259
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And they bothered me

260
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just like, “Gosh,
this feels really unfair!”

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And there's this really fun thing
that happens in I think it's Joshua 6

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where it says
they wiped out all of one of the -ites.

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And then three chapters later
there's some -ites,

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the same -ites, walking around chatting,
and you're kind of going, huh, huh.

265
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And so, you know,
I kind of start reading up on that.

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I go one, I'm grateful.

267
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I'm grateful to read that.

268
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And two, you kind of go, “Okay, ancient
historical conquest narratives.

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They're kind of like brag books.”
You know, they lie,

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but they're doing it
to encourage the people to say, “Hey, God

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gave us victory.” And so, you know,
we do this when we talk about sports.

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You read headlines and they're like,
the Lions destroyed the Vikings.

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Right.

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They won by three touchdowns.

275
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That's the you know to whatever extent.

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But you're doing that
because you're a lion's fan.

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You're trying to there's hyperbole.

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So one of the ways that we can read
the scriptures

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with some measure of humility
is to also receive the entire canon.

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So when you're talking about this,

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the Bible

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is opening up this story that I believe
ultimately leads to Jesus.

283
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I believe that all of it.

284
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And then I believe this
because Jesus himself says this.

285
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And since he's my Lord, he kind of gets to
tell me what the Bible is.

286
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And so in John 5

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00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,720
he tells a group of religious leaders
who’ve spent their whole lives

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00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,200
studying the Scriptures, and he says,
“You've searched the Scriptures

289
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,000
because in them
you think you find eternal life

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and I'm telling you, they testify
about me.” So that tells me somehow

291
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,400
Jesus becomes the key
to understanding a lot of the Scriptures.

292
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,440
So when we see Jesus come on the scene,
what we see is a lot of Jesus

293
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,280
acting out in real time, these values
and these things about the Lord.

294
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So in the same way that the Bible talks
about what God hates,

295
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we also see Jesus saying things like,
“Yeah, if you don't hate your father

296
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,640
and mother,
you're not worthy of me.” And you go, huh!

297
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,880
You know, what do I do with that?

298
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,760
And yet he also says, “Hey,
the core of the Bible,

299
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all of it can be summed up in ‘Love
the Lord your God and love your neighbor

300
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:15,800
as yourself,’ right?”

301
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,960
When you get to 1 John,
and this is written

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00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,640
by a guy who lived and walked with Jesus,
He can say things like, “God is love

303
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,400
and if you don't love your brother.”
John is dramatic so

304
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,400
let's make sure we take this.

305
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,120
John is dramatic.

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00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,400
He's like, “you don't even know God
if you don't love your neighbor

307
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,800
like you don't even.” And I'm like,
where did he get that from?

308
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,800
You know,
where did he learn these lessons?

309
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:43,040
And so when we look at the entirety
of Scripture, one, it requires us to say,

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00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,120
okay, maybe some of these stories
at first glance require

311
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,080
more consideration,
like in the conquest narratives.

312
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,960
But there are other places
in the Scripture

313
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,400
where it talks about conclusively
about God's character as revealed in Jesus

314
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,360
and as revealed in the New Testament.

315
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,480
And the drumbeat of that New Testament

316
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,640
seems to be, yes,
God takes sin very seriously.

317
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,280
He does.

318
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,360
Which is why
perhaps this language is very strong.

319
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,720
And yet the summation of God
and what he tells us all of this

320
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,760
Bible points to is Jesus, who says it's
about loving God and loving neighbor.

321
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,240
So whatever we decide about, hey,
we can't hold that

322
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,280
without the tension of him
also telling us it's about love.

323
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:25,720
Yeah.

324
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,720
And maybe one of the best passages on
this is Romans 5:8,

325
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,960
where it says “God
demonstrates his own love for us.

326
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,080
And yet while we were still sinners,
Christ died for us.”

327
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,920
There seems to be this proactive God goes
first loving of people who we would

328
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,160
say, wait, weren't those the same people
that God hated in Proverbs 9?

329
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,760
And yet God is saying, “No,
I loved you so much.

330
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:46,840
I sent my son to die

331
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,920
for you and my spirit to indwell you
to bring you home into this loving

332
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:55,080
relationship.” And so it seems as if
whatever capacity God talks about hate

333
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,480
was always in order
to bring about salvation at some point.

334
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,600
I hate these things that drive
you away from me.

335
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,200
I'm calling you home.

336
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,640
You won't come,

337
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,040
so I'm going to send my son even
while you're doing the things that I hate.

338
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,040
And so I think it's important
that we not only look at genre

339
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,600
but I think we have to
look at the whole of the Bible

340
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,640
to get an understanding of what God loves
and what God hates.

341
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,920
And it seems to me God
tend to hate things that destroy humans.

342
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,840
And he loves humans.

343
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,880
This seems to be the conclusion
when you hold these things in tension.

344
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,160
Yeah. It sounds.

345
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,760
First of all, thank you.

346
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,760
That is such a good comprehensive answer.

347
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,800
It is so dangerous to cherry pick

348
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,160
different verses in the Bible

349
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,640
without context in the genre

350
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,120
and also the context
of the whole canon of Scripture.

351
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:54,680
And that is an encouragement
and a reminder

352
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,280
for all of us
who are listening that we should be

353
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,520
searching the

354
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,520
Scriptures, curious about the Scriptures,

355
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,400
and, well, well-versed in the Bible

356
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,280
in order to be responsible
bearers of the Word.

357
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:13,600
Yeah.

358
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,920
So thank you for that reminder.

359
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,280
And it also sounds to me like you

360
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,560
are I'm

361
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,680
hyper-simplifying--but

362
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,920
Jesus is a decoder ring for us

363
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,000
as people who follow Christ.

364
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,040
The whole canon of Scripture

365
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:41,480
is rightly interpreted through the life,
ministry, death, resurrection

366
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,320
of Jesus Christ as our best

367
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,000
representative of the heart
and intention of God.

368
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,520
Is that? Yes. Yes.

369
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,640
And I think that that is the key

370
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,760
to so many passages that make me.

371
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,960
And I think here's what I also want to say
to the person who's listening to this

372
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,280
and go, “Yeah, I'm still uncomfortable
with the conquest passages.”

373
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,120
To which I'd say, “Yeah,
I think you should be,

374
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,440
and I'm not here to alleviate that,
but I am here to say

375
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,320
when you're spending time
in the Scriptures, at no point

376
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:18,800
Jesus's life, death, ministry,
resurrection, teachings and actions

377
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,560
don't bear
on your understanding of that passage,

378
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,800
I think you're missing a critical
component to help you understand.”

379
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,600
I think as the Scriptures unfolds--and

380
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,480
so a perfect example of this is you
hear about enemies in the Old Testament.

381
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:31,960
And you think, “Okay, enemies of God.

382
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,520
That's a very fraught statement.” Like,
you know, and yeah, and you go, “Okay,

383
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,240
so what do we do with enemies?” Now,
I actually think there are plenty

384
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,320
of passages in the Old Testament itself
that tells us what to do with enemies,

385
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:44,880
like Jonah is a perfect example

386
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,880
where God sends Jonah
into Nineveh to preach repentance.

387
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,880
And Jonah's like, “No.” And so,
you know, there Jonah has his own issues,

388
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,640
but you see Jesus come along
and Jesus begins to say, “No, no, no.

389
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,600
The enemies are these principalities.

390
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,320
There is an enemy beyond you.”
And he's on the cross

391
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,600
being crucified by people
we might call his enemies.

392
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,520
And he says, “Father, forgive them, for
they know not what they do.”

393
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,280
And then when you see him
looking out over Jerusalem,

394
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,240
and he's had some of his harshest,
sharpest words with the Pharisees,

395
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,280
who I think is an intra-group dialogue,
and I don't know about you,

396
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,280
but my own friends get my sharpest words
because,

397
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,760
you know, that's an intra-group dialogue
that sometimes I'm like,

398
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,280
there's something happening there that I
don't think we should co-op that language.

399
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,880
But he's reserved
his sharpest words for them.

400
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,360
And yet when he looks out over Jerusalem,
he weeps.

401
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,080
“I've
longed to gather you as a mother hen.”

402
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,720
And when we say,
what does God do with his enemies?

403
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,840
I think there's enough
in the Old Testament to actually

404
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,520
say he invites them into the law.

405
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,000
He invites them into the community.

406
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,880
He sends Jonah, he sends.

407
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,240
I think there's enough to say on its own
it stands up as God loves enemies.

408
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,760
But you look at Jesus
and you say, “What does

409
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,360
God do with enemies?”
And he dies for them.

410
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,920
He loves them.
He loves them enough to rebuke them.

411
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,360
You know, I think there's like,

412
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:01,520
I don't think the pendulum
should swing so far

413
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,720
that we're like, “Okay, well nothing
matters.” I'm like, “No, no, no.

414
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,200
Like, hear me.” I think, you know,
we should speak out against racism

415
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,200
and hatred and misogyny
and all these things that destroy people.

416
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,200
I think we should absolutely do that
because Jesus does that.

417
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,800
And yet, if Jesus is the decoder ring,

418
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,280
somehow he becomes this ability
for us to see God loves his enemies.

419
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,440
So then when you go back
and you look at especially like

420
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,680
take the Minor Prophets,
I love the Minor Prophets

421
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,680
because they just throw haymakers
there like you think it's bad now.

422
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,880
God is going to storm...

423
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,600
I love them.

424
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,520
Yeah. I love them. Yeah.

425
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,160
But they also talk about justice
with their haymakers.

426
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:37,480
Don't they?

427
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,520
Yes they do.

428
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,200
So Micah starts in Micah 1
and he's like, “You shepherds are broken.

429
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,240
You prophets are ridiculous.

430
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,480
You guys are ridiculous human beings.”
And then all of a sudden in chapter 2,

431
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,480
he's like,

432
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,840
“But God's going to send a shepherd,
and he's going to bring you home.” Yeah.

433
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,120
And then a little bit later,
Micah goes, “And by the way,

434
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,520
the nations who rage in vain, he's
going to bring them home too.”

435
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,880
And so that's what I mean by this--I
think you summarize it.

436
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,880
Yeah, it's hyper-simple,
but I think you got that right of the

437
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,880
I think you did justice
to this decoder ring.

438
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,720
We kind of go back and go, “Okay,
if God wants to wake me up to the things

439
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,240
that I'm doing that's destroying myself
and others, he sends haymakers, right?

440
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,680
Kind of rough
you up a little bit with Micah.” Yeah.

441
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,880
And yet he's like, “But by the way,
I still love you.

442
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,960
And I'm going to bring you home
as a shepherd.”

443
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,600
And when you know, Jesus comes along

444
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,600
and John's like, “Oh,
that's the good Shepherd.

445
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,240
His people know his voice.
He lays down his life.

446
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,400
The good shepherd lays down his life.”
And so that's why I think when we talk

447
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,840
about hate, to do so
without the context of love,

448
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,440
as this counterbalance understanding
of the fullness of God is a mistake.

449
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,440
And so if you're fomenting hate

450
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,520
without also fomenting love, I'm

451
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,240
not sure you're doing it
in the way that God has modeled for you

452
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,880
in God's own self, in the Old Testament
as well as through Jesus.

453
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,120
How do we course correct?

454
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:05,400
Say there is a
person or a movement or Yeah.

455
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,920
...say that is

456
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:14,680
fomenting hate, but calling it love,
I mean labeling it love.

457
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,200
Yeah.

458
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,360
What does course correction
look like practically?

459
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,120
And listeners, this is a question
that we did not discuss beforehand.

460
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,120
So Dr. Nika is sharp.

461
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,040
But we did not discuss this beforehand.

462
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,360
But I feel the need to ask the question.

463
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,400
Yeah. Yeah.

464
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,560
What does course correction look like?

465
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,600
Yeah. So I think a couple of things.

466
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,520
I think one, if you're within a community
that's fomenting hate

467
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,520
and it's directly impacting you,
I would encourage people to leave.

468
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,360
But I also think of
I share a birthday with...

469
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,000
Selah. Yeah, yeah.

470
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,240
Take a moment.

471
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:49,720
Take a moment.

472
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,320
We need to stop and consider that.

473
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,240
Yeah. Great. And we should.

474
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,000
So I you know,

475
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,000
there's this sense of martyrdom within
Jesus that the what would Jesus do?

476
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,000
At some point I would say, I think that

477
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,440
there is a sense as Christians that we are
called to turn the other cheek.

478
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,040
But I don't get the sense
that at any point

479
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,800
God tells us to stay in an environment
that keeps punching our cheek.

480
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,680
So I would say that.

481
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,960
I think Martin Luther King Jr sums it up
really beautifully when he talks about

482
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:19,080
darkness cannot drive out darkness.

483
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,840
Only light can do that. Right? Hate cannot
drive out. Hey, only love can do that.

484
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,000
And I think being loving doesn't
imply weakness, right?

485
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,280
There's a sense of strength.

486
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,440
And so what I would say to that is you can

487
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,200
counterbalance the teachings of hatred
with the teachings of Jesus.

488
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,880
And I also think you have to

489
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,000
then allow the Holy Spirit to do
what the Holy Spirit does best, which is

490
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,120
which is send haymakers.

491
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:46,000
So I think, one, to add to the violence
in this world

492
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,760
by adding our own hatred,
adding our own vitriol, adding our own.

493
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,880
You know, I don't think that's healthy.

494
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,640
And I think if anything, it's just going
to harm your own personhood. Right?

495
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,520
I don't think I can meet
that moment of hatred with more hatred

496
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,760
and think that it's not going to impact
me. Right.

497
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,440
And so I think there are
people called to be prophetic, that’s

498
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,400
speak truth to power.

499
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,640
And I think there are people
called to model what love looks like.

500
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,080
And I also think that sometimes
we need to use the Psalms

501
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,000
and pray these Psalms back to God
in these moments of grief

502
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,480
and lament to say, God,
we need you to fix this.

503
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,560
There are communities of hatred right now
to which I think

504
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720
I don't know anything other
than a work of God that will fix this.

505
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,440
I can't preach a sermon good enough.

506
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,280
I can't write a dissertation
good enough to reach them.

507
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,040
And yet, you know,
that's why I love the story of Jonah.

508
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,880
Jonah is a little bit like these fomenting
hatred groups where he's like, I

509
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,440
hate the Assyrians.

510
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,720
And, you know, he's also witnessed
the barbarity of the Assyrians.

511
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,760
That's right.

512
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,880
And the mercy of God seems audacious and

513
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:56,200
offensive in a lot of that just to speak
for I understand, I understand.

514
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,200
Oh, 100%. I tell people
all the time. I'm like, listen.

515
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,880
Which is why
I think Jonah and God are wrestling.

516
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,960
It's not, you know, and even
Jonah, Jonah’s like, “No, it's me,”

517
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,640
when he's talking to the sailors,
they're like, hey, there's some God.

518
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,840
He's like, “It's, it's me.

519
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,560
The God of mercy and love,
he's after me right now.

520
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,760
Just toss me in the water.” And he vomits,
you know, the fish vomits him out.

521
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,800
And Jonah is--now,
the thing about Jonah is

522
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,320
we are a little suspicious of him
because we've already seen him giving

523
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,560
prophetic messages to Jeroboam
II that Amos comes along and goes,

524
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:30,800
“Right.”

525
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,120
But we'd be kidding ourselves
if we didn't say, gosh,

526
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,960
I think that they--substitute
the Assyrians for another group.

527
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,360
There are people that. Absolutely.

528
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,840
you know, I don't want the mercy of God
to touch them.

529
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,840
And I think that
that challenges me to say, okay.

530
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,440
That's a hard message.

531
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,520
And so Jonah,
though, is a representation of--we

532
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,720
see the mercy of God
toward the Ninevites and toward Jonah.

533
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,600
And it forces us to say,
who wasn't an enemy of God at some point?

534
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,160
And if these people are going to change,
it will be not because of great preaching,

535
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,600
because Jonah preaches the worst
sermon ever.

536
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,680
Because like 40 days,

537
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,320
this whole thing is going to turn over
and they're like, “Oh

538
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,360
my gosh, our bad.” You know,
let me go to the mountains and watch.

539
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:14,720
Yeah.

540
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,200
Which they we know historically
they do not continue in that repentance.

541
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,480
And God, of course, you know, the fall of
Assyria is well documented in history.

542
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,440
But I say all this to say that's part of
the wrestling, that's part of the nuance.

543
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,440
And so when you ask this question,
what do we do with this?

544
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:33,120
I would say to the person listening:
we live in an age that rewards hatred.

545
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:34,160
You get likes for that.

546
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,960
We live in a reward where the snark
and the reply and all of that I love.

547
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,720
I want to dunk on people.

548
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,480
I would love nothing more than to sit
in people's replies and tell them how

549
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,160
I think they are just adding shenanigans
into the world, and they are foolish.

550
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:48,600
Yeah.

551
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,960
I don't think I can do that
without a cost to myself,

552
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,440
and I certainly can't do that
with still maintaining this posture

553
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,120
that I want to put in the world
where I look more and more like Jesus.

554
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,920
So I would say one,
get to a place of safety and then two, to

555
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,800
the capacity that you can have productive
and fruitful conversations where you are

556
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,400
putting into the world
truth and love and grace and mercy

557
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,800
to the extent that you can, is a way
that I would handle this.

558
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,600
But I also think I would pray
and ask God to do a work,

559
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,400
because some of these groups
I think are beyond the capacity of reason,

560
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,960
and they need God to send His Spirit
for a revival in their hearts.

561
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,600
And I think that
that's a hard place to be.

562
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,880
I feel like that is a good place to end.

563
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,520
But I want to give you the opportunity.

564
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,960
If there is any aspect of our discussion

565
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,600
on loving the sinner,
hating the sin that we hadn't touched on.

566
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,760
Yeah.

567
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,720
That you would have the opportunity
to have any last words on that.

568
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,160
Yeah.

569
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,560
I think with this phrase, you know,
what's hard about this phrase is we,

570
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,480
do I think God has his capacity
to hate the sin and not the sinner.

571
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,040
Yes, because God is infinite, right?

572
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,560
There's a sense of like,
God loves creation.

573
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,320
He loves his image bearers.
I think for us that's harder, right?

574
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,320
I think we think oftentimes
we are what we do.

575
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,880
And I like there are people that I'm like,
“Oh, it's hard to separate

576
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,480
the image bearer from what,
you know, what I see in them.” And so

577
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,160
maybe what I'd say to somebody
who's wrestling through hatred and love

578
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,240
and all these things, here's,
I think, a good litmus test on this topic.

579
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,480
If God came to you and said,
“I want to crucify whatever you hate,

580
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,480
so whatever it is that you hate, I'm going
to put it to death.” What would be left?

581
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,240
And if what would be
left is a person who is not freed

582
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,680
from the bondage of their own hatred, and

583
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,160
in all the ways that they have contributed
to chaos and violence into those world.

584
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,520
But there's a person that remains

585
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,520
because God has put to death
all the sin in their life.

586
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,880
I think that's a pretty good litmus test,
but if we're honest,

587
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,880
perhaps they would also
be obliterated too?

588
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,560
Right.

589
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,240
Then perhaps that's an invitation

590
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,360
for us to say, God, I want to continue
to learn to love like you.

591
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:03,960
And it's hard.

592
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,880
I mean, like, this is not easy.

593
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,000
And I think that's the thing
about--we want the Bible to be simple.

594
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,760
So it says things like, you know, love.

595
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,840
You're like, okay, cool.

596
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,800
And we know that's not easy to do.

597
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,280
We know that.

598
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,280
I mean, I'm
so glad you spoke up for Jonah.

599
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,400
It's so easy to read other people's
stories and go, “I

600
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,400
could never be like that.”
And yet I think, no,

601
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120
I think in my more honest moments,
there are people right now

602
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,120
that I see the way they speak
and the way they act.

603
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,640
And it's hard
to not harbor contempt.

604
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,240
Yeah.

605
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,280
And so I think this litmus test of God,
if I had my way and you could put to death

606
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,320
all the sin in the world, which I believe
is the day we're headed to. Right?

607
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,160
Yes.

608
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,760
Is what remaining a person
who I also then in that moment

609
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,800
think they would make amends.

610
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,400
I also think they would say,
I'm really sorry for all the ways

611
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,400
that, you know,

612
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,240
that is the encouragement to me,
and that's the place that I'm striving

613
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,000
to get to, is that I believe what

614
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,160
Jesus died on the cross
for was for people, but he also died

615
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,520
to put to death the things that we do that
hurt others and hurt ourselves.

616
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,560
And that's, I think, the model
for us of how we can love and hate

617
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,720
what God hates and love what God loves.

618
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,400
That is

619
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,440
so useful.

620
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,080
That litmus test also quite convicting,

621
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,080
but really useful in

622
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,840
our assessment of ourselves,
our motivations,

623
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:35,400
and whether we are hating
the sinner versus

624
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,960
the sin. Honestly.

625
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,320
I mean, we're all, you said this earlier,

626
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,320
who hasn't been an enemy of God?

627
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:49,920
Who's not standing in the place
of condemnation if it weren't for Christ?

628
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,080
And that's also humbling.

629
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,440
We're not standing in a better place
because we're better people.

630
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360
And it's a lesson that

631
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,920
it's a reminder that I need

632
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,920
because I can be very angry

633
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,240
and want to burn the person
along with the sin.

634
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:10,560
Sure.

635
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560
You and me both friend.

636
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,320
Yeah, it's a problem.

637
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,080
Yeah. It's a problem.

638
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,000
And I'm working on that
because like you said earlier,

639
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,440
there's always a drumbeat of mercy
that runs through the canon

640
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,880
of Scripture, along with the haymakers.

641
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,520
There's always a drumbeat
of mercy, and that mercy is

642
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,160
evident from Genesis to Revelation.

643
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,600
And that is what I long to follow.

644
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,360
So anyway,

645
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,440
good words.

646
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,840
We're talking about haymakers, decoders,

647
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120
litmus tests,

648
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,840
all of the things.

649
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,840
Thank you, Dr. Nika, for

650
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,880
elucidating on loving the sinner
and hating the sin and going

651
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,440
beyond the triteness of an oft-used phrase

652
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,520
to having biblical

653
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,520
and theological integrity
and really living out the nuance of that.

654
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,720
So thank you.

655
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,880
Of course.
Yeah, I'm glad to be here, friend.

656
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,560
Thank you.

657
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:22,720
And for all of us who are listening,
you can find many other podcasts and

658
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,720
videos pertaining to issues in the Bible
on our website

659
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,720
at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org,

660
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,960
clicking the Resources dropdown menu,

661
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,600
and then scrolling to Studying
and Teaching the Bible.

662
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Thank you for letting me host
this incredible

663
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,360
episode,
and I hope you have a wonderful day.

664
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,680
Thanks for listening to the
Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast.

665
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,200
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666
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,080
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667
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,400
This podcast is produced by
Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries.

668
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,520
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669
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,040
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670
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,240
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671
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,280
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672
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,680
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