How Should We Be Preparing for Data Centers?

WEBVTT
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I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.
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I'm not asking you to hide anything.
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Yeah.
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You know, put it out there.
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Let the people see it.
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I've never not worked in a hostile working environment.
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You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face.
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Zach, that's a hard question.
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I have no answer for it.
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From the opinion page of the Commercial Dispatch.
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This is Between the Headlines.
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This week on Between the Headlines, MUW declines to host a rally featuring Kamala Harris and Scott Colomb.
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We'll talk about that also.
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Data centers coming to an area near you.
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Get your diesel and your matches ready.
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It's going to be a lot of fun here in Catfish Alley Studio.
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And special guests will be here on the Josh Gillis phone line to talk to us about the Possum Town Film Festival and 140,000 negative photos from the 1900s that tell us a little story about the friendly city.
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But first, retirement looks different for everyone, so your plan should be built around you.
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In the heart of the friendly city, we join you here in Catfish Alley Studio, where it has been a festive week to say the least.
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We've known for a while that Kamala Harris has been coming to town to come to the aid, shall we say, of Mr.
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Scott Colomb, who is campaigning to be your state senator.
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U.S.
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Senator.
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Your U.S.
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Senator.
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And and we thought for a while, Zach, that that maybe that wouldn't happen.
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And and I guess now it has been relocated.
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It will be um as of right now at the Columbus High School Gym.
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Columbus High School Gym, yes.
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So they found a place to do this, but there was some drama in the meantime.
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There was indeed.
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And it's a little salty, so we're gonna dig into that today.
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All right.
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Well here's what we know uh and what we've reported.
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The uh campaign had uh had this all they thought that they had it all lined up at uh pole gymnasium at the W.
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Um on Tuesday morning, the uh Sheriff's Office, police department, and uh MUW police were um uh meeting, I guess, with university leadership to look at the venue and try to figure out how they were gonna do you know their the the the the standard security that would need to be done.
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And so at that point nobody officially knew where it was, it's just that the security people they were getting together, let's scope this place out, let's make sure it will do, right?
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R right.
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And I I mean the implication is that the that the implication, at least for Cologne's understanding, was that the W was in, they knew there'd been communication between the W and the campaign.
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The campaign had was was already solid on pole gymnasium, and they were just doing due diligence at this point.
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To make sure it would work.
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And Scott Tolleson got spooked and decided okay.
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We'll get there, Scott Tollison.
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But just before we even get into this, let's be reminded that that pole gym, it is the largest venue on campus out there.
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Yeah, I think it's the largest venue in town.
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I'm not sure about that, but it's definitely the largest venue on campus.
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But it's larger than rent auditorium.
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Yes, for sure.
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And um so Scott Tolleson, enter he.
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So he looks at it, sheriffs asking questions, where are people gonna part?
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What are we gonna do about this?
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What are we gonna do about that?
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And um at some point in all of that process, Scott Tollison decides we can't pull this off.
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So he pulls the W out of the conversation, sends the campaign scrambling.
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Then we spent um, what is today, Thursday?
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So we spent all day Wednesday just waiting for some confirmation of where this thing was gonna happen.
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And along about 6.15, we get confirmation that it will happen at Columbus High School.
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So um I'm sure that was a pretty fraught 24 hours for uh the Cologne campaign and the Harris uh team.
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So in Columbus High School and Columbus Municipal School District, I figure had a pretty fraught time pulling that together, too.
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Well, I do know that Columbus High School has a very large parking lot.
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I think parking would be much easier at that venue.
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And I know that Pole Gym um over time has gotten surrounded by all these buildings.
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So there will be a lot more walking.
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There are more buildings there than there was when Obama and Cheney was there.
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Sure.
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And and then you you you add to that this um this security deal, right?
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Okay.
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Um Columbus High School, it's kind of out there, it's not surrounded by trees or other stuff, it's there.
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And you know, I'm not a logistics expert, but I would think it would be a little more easy to secure.
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Whereas there's a lot of places for somebody to hide on MUW.
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And the only reason I bring that up is there was some wacko who was brought to light by Bridget Shelf, right?
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Um you know that there's always somebody out there, but it could have been a bot.
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It could have been a bot, but nonetheless, unfortunately, we have to think about those things.
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That's true.
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That's true.
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So Scott Tollison makes the decision, and um the first thing that comes to mind, Zach, is you have the first female vice president of the United States unable to come to Mississippi University for women.
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Which was which would have been kind of a celebratory occasion.
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But it didn't happen.
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It didn't.
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And I I don't know that Clyda Stokes rent is still alive or not, but uh I can't imagine what she would have thought about that decision.
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Right.
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Among other high-profile alumni, right?
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Right.
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Well, I mean you put the party aside, and it and the and I think that the really sad thing in the narrative, the real sad thing about the comments uh on this that were kind of all over the place was a lot of it had to do with the political affiliation of the person.
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Um can we not just can can can we not just recognize that this that she was the Vice President of the United States, first female vice president of the United States, and this was the first publicly funded uh uh women's college in the country.
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And all of those things colliding would be a very special moment for not only um the university but the community and the fact that um leadership got cold feet in making that happen, whether it was I mean, logistics was a stated reason, and we'll we'll we'll stick with what was said.
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Um you'll stick with what was said.
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I might not.
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Well, I mean you do but you do what you want to do, but I I will take I'll take uh Dr.
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Tollison at his word.
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Um it was a light, it was a light in a little bit of time, and I just didn't think we could do it.
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Okay.
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Well that that that for me, you make it happen.
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You make that happen.
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You make that historic moment happen.
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You make that historic moment happen.
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If Sarah Palin had ended up being the first female vice president of the United States and she wanted to speak at the W, you make that happen.
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You just do.
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And because it's good for the university, it's good for the community, it's a source of pride.
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And if you and if you don't feel a source of pride in the fact that something like that historic is happening in your community, says more about you than it does about the community or the the people trying to do it.
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Now So I heard you say a lot about optics, right?
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Yes.
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Go ahead.
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However, for whatever reason they were doing the logistics meeting 48 hours before the event, something break uh something broke down for that to be the timeline that they were actually looking at the facility.
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And hell, if I was the uh Harris, if I was the Harris team, I would be uh pretty happy with the the fact that they didn't follow through with something that would have had to been thrown together that quickly.
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But you also looking at Scott Tollson is an interim president.
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Um he's an interim president, he's babysitting that place, right?
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So imagine if you are babysitting some kids for some folks on a Friday night, and the kids tell you, on Friday night, we build makeship roller coasters in the living room and uh ride on them.
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And you're like the analogy I was waiting.
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You're like, um, well, you're not gonna do it tonight because I'm just babysitting and this ain't my house.
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And so, I mean, I imagine there was probably some.
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If the logistics thing is the thing that Scott Tollson was worried about, I can imagine that there was some maybe some babysitter uh anxiety related to that.
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And that I could honest to God understand because if I'm babysitting kids that are telling me about roller coaster Friday night and I'm there supervising it, they ain't having roller coaster Friday night.
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So I get it.
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Maybe so.
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I do know that that national figures, especially at that level, they come to town with what is called a band writer.
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And they may call it different things, but basically there are needs that must be met for us to step foot on this property.
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If they request chicken spaghetti, you need to provide chicken spaghetti to however many plates they ask for.
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I mean, it's just just how these things work.
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So And we don't we don't know what we don't know what was on.
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I'm stepping out, just kind of guessing here, but there were there could have been some requests made that just could not be honored for whatever reason.
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Could have been at MUW.
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Sure.
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But I'm telling you, my my neurons are firing up.
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I've got to take this thing a step further.
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All right, let's go.
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I look at MUW.
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Uh-huh.
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I look at the legislature, which has a Republican supermajority all around.
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And I'm I'm sitting there thinking, you know, we piss off the legislature quite a bit.
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Um maybe, all things considered, this is a an occasion where we don't piss off the legislature.
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So maybe we can just kind of ease out of this and take the easy way out, because they are not particularly fond of the former vice president down there in Jackson.
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What say you?
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Well, I would if that was the reason, if that was even a scintilla of the part of the decision, shame on everybody who was a part of that.
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And that's all that I will say.
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I will, as a gesture of good faith, take Scott Tylson at his word and assume that the logistics were the reason.
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And because that would be far more understandable than missing out on a historic uh uh uh missing out on a historic moment for your university because you're afraid you don't have the capacity to pull it off and you don't want to be and and you don't want to be right about the fact that you don't have the capacity to pull it off, that I understand.
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It's it's it's a little chicken litter, but okay, I understand that.
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But if it's what will Dennis De Bar think, uh that's shameful.
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And so I choose to believe that Scott Tollison is telling the truth when he says what his reasons were, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, because otherwise, that is a level of cowardice that I would not want to walk around with.
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All right.
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That is the journalist's approach.
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I tell you, I was waiting on someone from City Council to step forward and say, hey, you can use the trotter and we'll waive the fee.
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Well, they couldn't do that because the Welt the W's got the trotter that night, too.
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Oh my goodness.
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Did not realize that was a uh a double booking.
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Festive things happening here in the Friendly City.
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Anything else on that matter, Mr.
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Zach?
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I don't have anything other than, you know, uh well a little bit of the logistics, of course.
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By the time this gets out, the the rally will probably already be underway.
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But uh uh the line is they've got more than a thousand people uh uh signed up and ticketed for this event.
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There's a waiting list for for for no shows, um, and there's gonna be live streams.
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So ought to be a rollicking time if you're a Scott Colomb supporter.
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And uh I feel like there are maybe more of those than the um the the Peanut Gallery folks maybe thinks there is, but you know it'll be a festive occasion.
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Do you um do you suppose, Zach, that she will inject just a little bit of our Southern drawl into what she has to say?
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I mean surely.
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I don't know.
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I mean uh as much as a Californian can do that credibly.
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Well, maybe we'll be unburdened by that happening.
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You know I had to do that.
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All right, we'll take a quick break and come back and talk about dead gum data centers.
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Again, here we go.
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Hot outside, cold inside, that's exactly how we like it for three generations.
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Family-owned BRISLIN Incorporated has been keeping our neighbors comfortable no matter what our Mississippi weather throws our way.
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Brisling Incorporated comfort runs in the family.
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Our host is always on this show as the managing editor of the Dispatch, Mr.
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Zach Player, and he gets the grand privilege of going back and forth with me here today about everybody's favorite topic, and that is data center.
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Data centers.
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And the reason we bring them up today is because it it just with every passing week we hear a little whisper of this, a little whisper of that, and the probability and likelihood of one landing somewhere here within the Golden Triangle is quite high.
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We've spoken with Meryl Fisackerly, we've spoken with others, and it may be imminent.
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It may be something with and you spoke with Facebook this week.
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I spoke with all of Facebook this week.
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I I put something out there.
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Uh, how enlightened were we for the for the exercise?
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Yeah, I I I wanted to put something out there to make today's presentation of this matter uh driven by our listeners.
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And um I'll just start off by saying I there was nothing really that caught me by total surprise.
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Okay.
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Let me um let me boil down the feet.
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Okay, first off, there were a lot of shares and there were a lot of comments, and I was not able to get to all of them.
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Give me the highlights.
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The highlights are the biggest worry is noise.
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Okay.
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Right next to that is water consumption.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Probably the third most common complaint is my electricity is somehow going to go up.
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Okay.
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And then there were some other oddball things that came up.
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All right.
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Well, to those concerns, before we get to the oddball concerns, to those first concerns, read the paper.
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Yeah.
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Read the paper.
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We had a um we had a story come out on Saturday, Sunday of last week.
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Uh maybe a couple weeks ago.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And and and those those concerns were I would say largely addressed.
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Um I mean Right.
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I mean the noise can be mitigated.
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Um AWS data centers are uh they uh they build their data centers uh at 50 decibels, uh which is the conversation that we're having right now is probably around that.
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Um water consumption can be done several different ways, including in a closed loop system, but with recycled water.
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Uh you can recycle waste water.
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Um but yeah, water consumption is going down for a lot of these data centers as cooling technology is changing and becoming more diverse.
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Um the power generation is definitely, I think, a valid question still, but it's something that even at that um communities can demand that they generate their own.
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Yeah, and and they are again, you know, they've got to plug into the grid.
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Well, and and and even if they do plug into the grid, they generally speaking are going to plug into TVA.
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It's not like they're pulling straight off a Brian Clark system or straight off a Columbus Light and Water.
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But look, all that aside, uh my goal here today, and and I would maybe the same for you, it it I'm not trying to change anybody's mind on this matter.
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I just want to wrap my head around what people are thinking and where they got this.
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And and so my big question is how are they all saying the same thing generally?
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I mean, they're they're I might touch on the oddball comments a little later, but the the same three or four main points over and over and over, and yet um I'm not dismissing those concerns, but what I am saying is nobody gave a picture or a video or a concrete example or I mean at best I was hearing kind of just third party my cousin's girlfriend down in West Virginia had one built and and here's what they had to deal with.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:24.240
Right.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:35.039
But I mean, from a journalistic standpoint, I just could not find anything really tangible other than some legit outrage.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:42.880
Well, and and outrage really, outrage for the sake of outrage is is uh that's a very visceral response to anything.
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.720
You see it in our politics.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:51.440
But I'll say again what I said the last time we talked about this on here.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:21:02.559
The whole game is taking that concern, that true com that that the the center of that is true community concern.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:17.519
All right, and making sure that you're pressing your leaders in credible responsible ways to put standards on these guys, say if you want to come here, this is what we expect.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:20.720
You can come here, but this is what we expect.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:42.960
Other communities across the country have done that, and these data center developments, the the the ones that are operating in some good faith, they are they are complying with these community standards and and and building in these places in ways that are not um loud and thirsty.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:51.440
Yeah, predatory to the resources and and and disruptive to living around them or living in the communities with them.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:56.880
And they do create more jobs than a lot of people believe.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.759
So that's what you do.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:24.079
So you you to you take all of this outrage, you take all of this concern, and instead of lining up to burn the thing as a witch, start communicating with your leaders, not don't let these fools come here, not in my backyard, but hey, I understand that this is the way industry is going right now.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:33.839
I understand that these people that that the Golden Triangle is going to be an appealing place for maybe uh some of these developments to come.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:45.839
But if they come here, can we talk about giving them parameters and then that way the ones who will come here will be the ones that agree to those parameters.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.759
I think smart leadership will definitely provide those parameters.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.160
Yeah, I do I do believe that that is true.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:10.000
There's no question that if if we're getting several calls a day, as was reported, about a data center, that it sounds like we have the upper hand on negotiation, and there ought not be any problem putting in uh these stipulations and these regulations.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.160
Hey, we don't want to look at it.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.640
Hey, we don't want it next to a neighborhood, hey, plant some trees around it.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:17.200
Right.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:22.799
Hey, let's get some d how how many decibels are we talking, and can we mitigate that even farther?
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:23.519
That's right.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:24.960
Is it what kind of investment?
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:26.160
And this is what they did in St.
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:42.400
Louis, if you read the story, what kind of investment into certain types of public infrastructure, what kind of investment into certain types of programs and and energy efficiencies can we get from this development?
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:44.000
How bad do you want to be here?
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.319
Are you willing to invest in the community that you're planting yourself in?
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:58.640
And good community or good corporate partners will do these things and and they're used to having these discussions, so they're not gonna be shocked by it.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:03.200
So the ones that then say, Yeah, we can't come for that, bye.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.640
But the ones who say, Yeah, we can do that.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.319
And when we come into town, and then when we come, we'll build X, Y, and Z and we'll we'll make contributions.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:15.359
Absolutely.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.160
And you know, I I didn't read a lot about that.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:44.720
There were some comments, but it it felt like Zach, it felt like one of those issues where uh compare it to vaccination or I don't know, uh uh abortion or I mean any manner of of issue where the the the anger is so high that those who are in favor of that topic are or you know what, I'm not gonna touch that.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:54.559
I'm just gonna scroll on past that and consequently I think a lot of those voices simply did not get heard in what we put out.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:11.279
But um one thing that that did not get brought up that that's of interest to me is the there's just not at least locally, there's not a lot of retail value in this type of thing.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:17.519
You you think about in the Golden Triangle, we have what five megasites?
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:19.680
Yeah, that's why they called it Cinco.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.160
Right.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:36.400
Well, Chattanooga has what one or two, and you look at these other towns here, there, and yonder, they don't have as as much industrial space as we have, and so we've become a little industrial heavy.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:49.519
And so I think a lot of people out there listening to us and sitting at home are like, okay, data center, you know, steel mill, aluminum, that's great, that's big money, but but I still need a place to shop.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:56.160
I still need somebody to, you know, talk to Grandpa Hull and put some some cool stuff over there in the mall.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:56.960
All right.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:15.440
Well, if you got 150 people working at anything that's making eighty thousand dollars or more a year, um the they're gonna shop somewhere, and so there's gonna be more more demand for the supply.
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:20.000
Well, we've said that before, but again, it seems like they're going to Birmingham and Tupelo.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.519
That's the retail sector's responsibility to feel.
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.039
Not not Amazon or Meta or whomever.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:38.319
Now, I will say that there is maybe some value to this argument, and it's uh one that uh uh Trip Harson and I talked about.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:44.720
What are data centers making as opposed to what the steel mill is making?
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:58.880
Are we uh the you know, if we're gonna do industry, do we need to do manufacturing where we're making a tangible product um uh uh for the effort of using the resources and the power and et cetera?
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.839
And I think that there's some discussion to be had there.
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:13.680
Um and I honestly don't know where I fall on it, but I think that that particular argument has a little bit of teeth for me of what exactly are these guys making?
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:15.759
What are these guys contributing?
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:31.519
Uh are they contributing, you know, they're contributing to your uh housing of cat videos, or they're contributing to uh machine learning and generative AI that you can just use ChatGPT to make pictures of whatever you want.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:39.599
Is that as of much is that as valuable in society as uh aluminum rolls?
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.480
And I think that you can argue maybe not.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:52.559
But at the same time capture an industry that exists as technology progresses, you gotta do that.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:59.279
I mean how many railroads were running a hundred years ago that don't have that hadn't had a train on them in twenty?
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:00.880
I don't know.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:09.519
I think railroads are pretty daggum stable, and I think they still get used until they just get wore the heck out and then they relocate them.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:17.440
Uh and in fact, that was one of the the the big concerns was technology's changing really fast.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:24.640
And you know, Elon Musk is talking about, hey, we're gonna be putting these things in space anyway ten years from now.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:25.839
He said that.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.880
But he also said that work was becoming obsolete and I'm still waiting on that to happen, right?
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.559
So he says a lot of things.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.359
But um what do you think about that though?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:43.680
Do we suppose that these data centers as they are are gonna be fly by night simply because of how fast the tech changes?
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:44.559
It's possible.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:59.680
I think there's a there therein again is another valid argument for why you need to be um uh skeptical of and very uh scrutinizing of these uh uh plans.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:15.279
And I think that there again is a really good uh really good policy that you can put in as a community as uh you know help repurposing the building if you ever if you if you duck out within a certain amount of time.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:17.279
Uh I don't know.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:30.480
I don't know if you can even do that, but uh it's something that I think that would be a real concern is if they constrict and then vacate, then you've got to repurpose this really big ass facility in the middle of the field.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.599
Well, they're worried about that happening to the solar panels.
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:40.480
I mean, solar panels you can only fix so many times, and then what happens to those fields over there in West Point, right?
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.880
So great concerns.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:45.920
I enjoyed listening uh or or reading them.
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:47.039
Yeah, for sure.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.440
I now some of them they just didn't seem to be based in fact.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:52.799
I mean, I'm just being real.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:02.000
I'm not sitting here behind the mic trying to make friends necessarily, but um man, we'll see some of it is legit, some of it feels like a psyop.
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:05.119
Like the I mean, look, I know again.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:07.440
Here we go with the conspiracy stuff.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:12.079
You know, China and and Russia and and places over there, they want to be first.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:17.680
You remember they wanted the the Sputnik thing got launched and then we were all embarrassed by that.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.240
Anyway, they can beat us, they're gonna try.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:27.359
I mean, so you can't deny that that there's at least the desire to slow us down in terms of AI.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.079
Sure.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:39.039
But the main thing was, Zach, that I just did not see a lot of those comments based on actual like facts and and tangible things.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:57.599
And so in fact, I promise I'm not trying to make fun of somebody out there, but there was someone who was sharing literal Google screenshots, okay, where she asked, I guess Gemini, why data centers were a bad idea.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.039
And Jimmy.
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:00.400
There's a lot of irony in there.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:07.519
Yeah, there were there were three different screenshots that that this well-meaning individual posted.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.440
The thing is, every freaking body uses it.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:11.839
Okay?
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.279
You use it in ways that you don't even know you're using it.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.880
Yeah, it spies on you.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:22.880
Yeah, it's in some ways it's the Tower of Babel, but it's a shoot ton of money.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.279
It is so much dead gum money.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:41.839
I've heard people say that this is uh that this whole movement you know, even if it's just a brief movement, is going to be the single largest uh infrastructural endeavor in human history.
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:45.680
I mean, you take well look, uh let me pull this up.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:46.720
Here's some info here.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:52.880
You've got uh you add up the Apollo space program,$280 billion, the U.S.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:32:04.880
Interstate system,$550 billion, the Manhattan Project, about$40 billion, the Marshall Plan,$170 billion, the Panama Canal, a measly$15 billion.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:09.440
That amounts to about$1.05 trillion.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.480
So you compare that to data centers.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:12.960
Uh-huh.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:14.720
Just 10 times that amount.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.559
$10 trillion, Zach.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.319
10 trillion bucks.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:19.759
Well, I don't know.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.720
And I'm not looking at what you're looking at, so I don't know.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:24.799
That's like adjusted for inflation.
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.680
Some of those things happened in the 40s and the 20s.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:29.839
But it's still an irrational number.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:31.200
It is, it is.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:33:15.200
And uh so the argument with that is okay, is it a missed opportunity to um not get in on that money, some of it, and get the benefit that you can for the decade you can get it, even if they constrict and vacate and go into space and then you've got this big empty building, that five, ten billion dollars, twenty, thirty billion dollars that you could get out of a hyperscaler, not only the capital investment, but the fee and lie that comes with that and the taxes that comes with that, and all of the you know, the jobs and whatever that would come with that, if you get that for a decade, does that not change the trajectory of your community for the next half a century?
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.720
Property taxes could literally go away.
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:20.000
Literally.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.559
I mean, if we were Alaska, you could get paid money for living here.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.000
I mean, that that's that's the type of cash you're talking about.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:37.200
So I guess at the end of the day, Zach, we just need to remember that this is a a very nuanced conversation.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.279
And, you know, the let me ask you this.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:54.960
What do you think's gonna happen the day it does get announced and the day, okay, we've got so-and-so having a legal public forum to hear what what what do they call these meetings?
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.720
You know, you're you're supposed to have them.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.160
I guess you're supposed to have them.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:06.960
I don't think you have to for this, but they they they but I've seen some of them and folks come out of the woodworks, I tell you.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:19.280
And I think that they will be, if the investment is big enough and the standards are met, those people are gonna be summarily ignored, and they're gonna have to get glad in the same drawers they got mad in.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.320
All right.
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:22.320
All right.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.840
The truth about all that shall be revealed in the fullness of time.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:26.719
There you go.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.599
But in the meantime, we've got guests.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.719
Let's bring them on.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.639
So as we get ready for the Possum Town Film Festival, we welcome into the studio today Mr.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:43.360
Berkeley Hudson, who is the executive producer of the documentary known as Possum Town.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.280
He is also author of the book O.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:45.599
N.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.760
Pruitt's Possum Town.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:51.360
And also joining us on the Josh Gillis Phone 9 is Mr.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:54.480
Dan Christian, who is one of the filmmakers.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:56.559
We welcome both of you here today.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:57.599
Thank you.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.800
Thank you for having us.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:34:59.440
Mr.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.760
Christian, you're the director of the film.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.079
Yes, the director and editor of the film.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:04.719
Okay.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:05.519
All right.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:11.119
Well, um, I'd like to uh uh like to start with you, uh Berkeley.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.079
I mean, I know that you've been uh researching uh Mr.
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:19.760
Pruitt's uh uh photography, uh 40 years worth of archives of it.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:29.119
What about his photography do you think uniquely captures uh the essence of Columbus?
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:40.000
Well, it it captures an essence from the 1920s to the 1960s during what's called the Jim Crow era of racial segregation.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:36:22.239
Uh but what's remarkable is that he was a white man, but he moved uh easily in the black community, and the white community photographed both black and white community life, a whole range of incredible portraiture, uh and also just everyday occurrences, you know, baptisms, fires, tornado aftermath, carnivals, Jack Dempsey come into town, you know, and he also photographed racial violence uh in in Columbus, including uh a lynching of two young black farmers, and then he photographed executions at the Lowndes County Courthouse in the 1930s.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:40.880
So he was unusual in in that he photographed this wide range of community life, and it's probably the collection is probably one of the foremost collections of uh in the South, American South for that time period by one photographer.
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:57.519
And when you put together this uh this this book and this compilation of this photography, if I remember there was a uh uh uh there was an event that you attended sort of as a unveiling of it all to at the arts council.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.079
That was uh that was a couple of years ago, wasn't it?
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:04.880
Yeah, that was in uh February 9 uh 2022.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:17.199
It was a National Endowment for Humanities sponsored uh photo exhibit with uh close to a hundred frame prints that were in the Columbus Arts Council there for a couple of months.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:36.960
And and out of that, that has grown this documentary project uh that was done by two of my former students at the University of Missouri, Dan Christian and then the cinematographer Cassidy Minarat, who did an amazing job kind of jumping off, you know, from that exhibit.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:43.039
You know, Dan came to that opening, you know, and interviewed people and and got really interested.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:49.920
And he had already worked with me at the University of Missouri with the project when he was a graduate student.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:50.639
Okay.
00:37:51.440 --> 00:38:12.719
Well, well, Dan, then uh I guess while you were there at the opening, what what was it that that that really grabbed you and what were you seeing from the reactions of people, many of whom you know live in Columbus that were maybe seeing these things for the first time or being reintroduced to these pictures for the first time in decades?
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:13.519
Right.
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:18.400
Yeah, and and just to add a little bit um to uh what Berkeley said for for context.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:26.400
So I was Berkeley's graduate assistant um at the University of Missouri at the time I was um getting my uh master's in documentary journalism.
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:37.519
And um for my uh you know research uh assistantship, I I helped Berkeley just with the uh with kind of all things Pruitt um Pruitt project.
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.000
So that you know included just some help for the book and the exhibit as those things were developing.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:54.639
Um and so when the exhibit finally came to Columbus, I you know, um I wanted to go partially just to see some of the um stuff that I had helped with could you know come to fruition.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:39:01.199
Um and so um, you know, I went there with without anything specific in mind, really.
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:11.360
I mean, I was gonna capture some some interviews for Berkeley, but there was not really an idea at the time necessarily for a documentary, at least as I was driving in that would change as I was driving out.
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:49.599
Um, but yeah, I mean, I think being there and I mean it was definitely the response that people had to the images, just the the kind of intensity of emotion, but also just feeling the um the kind of you know distance between then and now in this place where like you're seeing these images um, you know, of Columbus, and then you're standing in Columbus and you're just kind of feeling the um uh the past kind of overlapped almost onto the present, and it created this um feeling that I was just uh very interested in.
00:39:49.679 --> 00:40:05.599
And so Berkeley and I had dinner and um, you know, I think that night or the next night, and that's when we kind of talked about doing a um uh a documentary project that could serve as um kind of corollary to to Pruitt's work.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:17.280
I mean, in a way, obviously, you know, I'm I'm not documenting Columbus for 40 years, so I could never um you know replicate the scope of Pruitt, but I was drawn to the scope um of the work.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:38.480
And we thought it would be interesting to do something um, you know, about Columbus today that while it can it could never have the same scope as as Pruitt, maybe suggests um a scope and an openness that you see when you look at all these different photos and all these different um, you know, uh ways of life converging with each other.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:47.840
You talk about the emotional response that uh that people experience when they look at these images, when they see the documentary.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:07.280
And and that makes me wonder if um if that distance, you know, traveling back in time, if it reminds people of how much we've changed, or if it reminds people of how much things are the same, what is that connection like in the responses that you get?
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:20.000
So so one thing I wanted to make sure that I say is uh I I read this term recently in a New York Times book review, unsettled unsettled history.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:41.920
And so I think what I'm really uh been thinking a lot about is there's these unsettled histories, plural, not just one unsettled history, but that's true when you look at the Pruitt photographs, and I look at tens of thousands of them, and at the same time, it's it's true in Columbus today.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:58.159
There are all these different perspectives, and at the opening in Columbus four years ago, I said, uh, I just want you to look, slow down, and discover what you might, you know, when you look at these pictures, and it's the same with the documentary.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:05.679
Everybody's point of view is not going to come out in this documentary, just like Dan said, it cannot be encapsulated.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:08.079
You know, it's just it's too much.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:19.679
But there are all these puzzle parts of perspectives that you will see in the documentary, and you'll see the Pruitt pictures kind of laid in there like a clothesline, you know, from the past.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:29.760
So I I just, you know, and I said to people at the exhibit, you know, I don't care what your religious belief is or not, I don't care what your political belief is or not.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:53.280
I'm just saying look at these pictures and look at this documentary and see if there's some place where you might enter in, where it may butt up against what you believe or where it may be in sync with what you believe and think, but just open up to it in a way that's uh uh that I think that could be helpful for any one of us, no matter our age, our background, or whatever.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:43:06.559
And I I think one thing you see in the film is everybody has a kind of personal response to both the kind of collective history of Columbus and their own personal histories um, you know, in in the town.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:15.280
And those two things sometimes um butt up against each other, and sometimes they they you know overlap in an ideologically sound way, but a lot of times they don't.
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:28.559
And so um I think you know the film is in a large, well, in large part, it's a lot of what it explores is kind of the way that you know history is kind of living inside everyone in the present moment.
00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:29.920
Okay.
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.079
Well, uh and Barkley, a a specific question for you.
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:38.079
I mean, uh a lot of people, uh I mean, you're from Columbus.
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:46.880
A lot of people leave their hometown, they have successful careers like you've had at the University of Missouri as a as a professor.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:57.440
Um, and they don't sometimes they don't look back, but you seem to have uh maintained a very strong, tight connection with your hometown.
00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.840
And I d I just wanted to give you an opportunity.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.840
Opportunity to talk about where that comes from and and why that continues.
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:07.679
Well, I'm uh I have to caution you also.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.280
I'm I'm what's known in my family as an all-day talker.
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.239
Me too, actually.
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:30.800
And so the answer is a long answer, but in the documentary, actually, I say some very sweet things, you know, about my upbringing and about my family.
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.880
Uh, and I also say, you know, there was some bitterness there too.
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.719
I mean, uh, I had to get out of Mississippi.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:43.519
You know, I graduated from Ole Miss and I went to New York City.
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:59.840
And in some ways, you could say I didn't look back, but I was always looking back, you know, and I came back home after a couple of years and stayed there and actually uh worked for uh writing stories for the dispatch for a few months before I moved to Rhode Island.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:07.599
Uh Bernie Imes and I did these uh great projects of photography and stories for a few months, and then I moved to Rhode Island.
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:10.079
I was there 11 years and I moved to LA.
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:23.119
I worked at the LA Times for 11 years almost, and then I got a PhD at UNC, and uh and I focused on the Pruitt photographs and I focused on the history of the American South.
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:26.480
Uh so uh I say some I quote James A.
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:26.719
J.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:35.199
I think it's my right and true blood, you know, is is in Mississippi and it's in Columbus, and it shaped me.
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.320
It shaped me in so many ways and shapes me today.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:40.960
Well, your story's not terribly unfamiliar.
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:47.119
I know of a lot of people that just had to get out of town, but a lot of them in the end they ended up coming back.
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:48.559
I'm actually one of those.
00:45:48.719 --> 00:46:00.880
And I'm I'm wondering when you went to North Carolina and you looked at all those thousands of pictures, how did that change your perspective about your hometown?
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:15.199
Well, the this just quickly, before my boyhood friends and I discovered the photographs in the 1970s in Columbus on Main Street upstairs where Mr.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:16.880
Pruitt's studio was.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:23.920
Uh, he had already passed away, he died in 1967, but Calvin Shanks, his assistant, still had all those negatives.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:34.719
And Mark Gooch was uh doing a project on Catfish Alley, and so he was looking for pictures and he ended up going up there, and that's where he saw all these negatives.
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:41.199
And then he told Bernie Hims and myself and then Jim Carnes and David Gooch about it.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:48.000
And we went up there and we said we it it took us 13 years, but we knew we needed to figure out a way to save them.
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:54.159
So I was I looked at them a long time before I got to North Carolina to work on my PhD.
00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:03.039
So you say you saved them, that is to say you digitized them or no, well, no, digitization didn't start happening, you know.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:06.239
We got to I mean there wasn't any good 70s.
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:07.039
All right, yeah.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:19.440
No, no, we just had thousands, tens of thousands of pictures in pasteboard boxes, wooden crates that we started going through.
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:23.679
So we just started looking at them and we would say, well, who is this?
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:30.480
Who is this man, this farmer who's like sitting outside of a standing outside of a farmhouse with a mule?
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.840
Well, it took me like eight years to figure out who that was.
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:38.480
Sylvester Harris, who called President Roosevelt and asked for help during the depression.
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:40.559
And who's this with Jack Dempsey?
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:46.400
And oh, these are Truman Capote's parents, the writer, and that's the great Pasha and Madame Flosella.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:58.800
So we were just looking at prints and negatives, and they didn't start being digitized until about 25 years ago when John Imes started a project helping us digitize them.
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:00.960
But and I we didn't have Google.
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:06.239
I didn't have I would just take the pictures around Columbus and say, Do you recognize anybody here?
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:07.360
Wow.
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:16.719
And to be clear, you were looking at negative strictly, or you you flipped them around when you decided this is something we needed to investigate.
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:21.280
Well, no, I we made prints of them that we could show to people.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:24.639
And there were there were prints in the collection that we had gotten.
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:32.639
Uh so that uh anyway, that was a real adventure in a lot of different ways.
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:44.719
And then, you know, it'd be very different if I were doing it now and I had Google and AI and all that kind of stuff, but that wasn't happening when the book shoe leather reporting is what they call that.
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:45.840
Right, right.
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:48.880
You've mentioned Jack Dempsey twice.
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:50.239
All right, I don't know who that is.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.400
You don't know who Jack Dempsey was?
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.840
I I thought he was the one that kicked the world record field goal for the book.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:57.599
No, he was a boxer, David.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.800
The boxer, okay.
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:09.280
Yeah, but when I saw a picture of him, he was standing over a grave and he had uh supposedly buried someone alive, and I didn't know if that was a magic trick or what.
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:09.920
Right.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.320
Well, you can read all about it in the book.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.320
Uh we don't have time to go into it in the document documentary.
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:19.360
They've got it over there at what they call friendly city books.
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.000
Uh yeah, uh that's a good segue here.
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.960
I want to talk about because I know that y'all are showing this documentary.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:28.559
I I believe it's uh uh Monday evening at the Malco.
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.760
Uh y'all partnered with Friendly City Books to do that.
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:34.239
Uh talk about how all that came together.
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:37.360
Uh well, I Dan, go ahead.
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:38.239
Sure.
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:54.960
Um, well, I mean, maybe Berkeley, you might be able to talk about the like kind of initial contact, but Friendly City Books um and the Create Foundation, which is associated with them, were um, you know, supportive of of the film, you know, at as it was going on.
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:59.599
Um, they uh served as a as a fiscal sponsor to help us get grants.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:07.199
Um, you know, so they were um, you know, I guess aware that this was uh this was happening the whole time.
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:15.119
But you know, they didn't see the film obviously until semi-recently when it was done, but um they were supportive of of making it all possible.
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:24.639
And so I think you know, wanted to be a part of uh um also bringing it to Columbus in a way that um you know, I guess could could engage with the community.
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:32.000
Berkeley, I don't know if you have anything to add about, I guess, w how you initially got linked up with friendly city books.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:46.000
Well, I met Emily Leiner, who's the founder when she came to town, and I've been, you know, working with her ever since on projects, including the documentary and including the exhibition uh that we had.
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.320
So that's that was the connection.
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:56.960
And and you know, and also I want to point out we got a nice grant from the Mississippi Council for for the documentary too.
00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.679
You you guys have anything you want to add?
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:16.559
Uh just make sure you look and you slow down, and then you'll discover things and realize that the documentary does was not gonna is not gonna tell everybody's story, but it's gonna tell some stories and it's gonna connect with the pictures.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:17.199
Okay.
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:19.119
6 to 8 p.m.
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:20.559
Monday at the Malco.
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.920
That's uh October 26th, that's this Monday.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:24.400
Yep.
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:32.559
Possum Town, a film by Daniel Christian at the Malco Cinema Columbus, 2320 Highway 45 North.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:34.480
Free tickets are available.
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:36.719
Yes, and just one other quick thing.
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:44.719
If you can't see it there, you can see it at the Indy Memphis Film Festival on Sunday afternoon, November the 8th.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.559
And this will be about in Columbus, it'll be about the 8th or 9th screening of the film that premiered in Baltimore, Maryland last fall.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.159
Our special guests today have been Mr.
00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:58.480
Berkeley Hudson and Dan Christian.
00:51:58.559 --> 00:51:59.440
Thanks, fellas.
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:01.199
Thanks for hosting us.
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:02.000
Thank you.
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:07.119
Just the description of these photos and and this documentary is really compelling.
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:13.599
I I think we are really support Friendly City Books and go check this thing out.
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.800
But uh That said, Zach, three things to know.
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:18.079
Three things to know.
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:32.880
Number one, the Dora Wealthy Writers Symposium starts Thursday, runs through Saturday with authors of myriad genres hosting events and workshops hosted by Mississippi University for Women, which is how you know it won't feature Kamala Harris.
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:41.360
It will be headlined by the annual Wealthy Gala Friday night at Trotter Convention Center with keynote speaker and acclaimed author, Elizabeth Smart.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:44.480
And I'm given to understand the event is sold out.
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:46.400
Number two.
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:56.239
Columbus Municipal School District is officially shopping out the vacant Fairyview Elementary School building after receiving an appraisal for it for$300,000.
00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:07.119
This week it also entered a vague but very interesting partnership with Project Synergy, in quotation marks, to explore repurposing the Magnolia Bowl.
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:12.719
The district did not divulge the identities of the private partners on the project.
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:19.840
Number three, the inaugural Taste of Columbus Foodie Fest is coming this weekend to the Columbus River Walk.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:20.960
I'm going to that.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:22.320
I'm looking forward to it.
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:28.079
Set for noon to 5 p.m., the event will feature an eclectic mix of food vendors.
00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:32.079
Event goers are encouraged to bring a lawn chair and hang out.
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:37.679
I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense.
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.480
I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.920
You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David.
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:45.440
That's what old people do.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:54.480
That is Peter Rimes, publisher of The Dispatch.
00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:59.119
One of our hosts of Between the Headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom.
00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:10.639
Typically, we try to keep news and opinion separate, but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government, and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners.
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:16.880
The Dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity, and our reporting will always reflect that.