Ep. 253 Max Mitchell Assistant Commissioner (Retired) NSW Police Force

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It's time for the Zero Limits Podcast, hosted by an Australian veteran.
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Chatting with high-charging humans with hectic stories from around the world.
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We'll give you the motivation to take on whatever life throws at you in the game to complete any goal you set your money to.
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Let's go.
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Zero Limits listeners on today's Zero Limits podcast.
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Joined in the Newcastle studio by a 40-year veteran of the New South Wales Police Force, 12th of January 1981, the 20 at the 22nd of July 2022.
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He reached the heights, the dizzy heights of assistant commissioner.
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Spend a lot of his time uh down in Sydney, however, a large portion up here in Newcastle as well, as the commander up here.
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So we'll definitely talk about that.
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But uh just quickly, Max Max Mitchell.
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How are you doing, mate?
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Yeah, good, thanks, man.
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Mate, appreciate you coming in and uh wanting to share your story.
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I think you reached out and I was like, mate, 100%.
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I think last time I was speaking, we spoke about this offline, having Nick Caldus on.
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And people at that level, it's it becomes less policing, more political.
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So that's the reason I wanted to get you on, so we can talk about obviously your policing career, but that top end that no one gets to see where all the the corridor creepers are, they say.
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Hopefully I wasn't one of those.
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And it's funny because when you did reach out, obviously I I get my character references out there, reach out to a few people.
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Mitch Ashworth is one, Kane ICOP and he said, Thank you for helping him one time.
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Yeah, good man.
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Yep, exactly.
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So and I reached out to a few other guys and they said, Yep, he's one of the good bosses, you know, that's it, which is rare, which which shouldn't be rare.
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Well, that's lovely to hear, but I guess, Matt, along the way, there's always one or two that you've upset.
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And uh there is, yeah.
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That's right.
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It comes with the territory.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, that's it.
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Being the being the big dog, mate.
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Yeah, can't keep everyone happy.
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And you've seen it with with the news and the media and the government.
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This country's going crazy.
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It's absolutely crazy.
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We'll talk about what I want to do with your podcast, like we do with all the other ones, is you know, you talk about your policing career, but also move into that political aspect.
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And obviously, we spoke about this offline.
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You had to stand up in front of the media a whole bunch of times as well and deal with them.
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And like we like you said, there's a different between the media groups, you know, you've got your your Sydney-based Chai Latte drinkers, and then you've got your you know, your Newcastle, Novicastrian type media guys that were actually really good and wanted to present real news.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Look, Sydney's ruthless, there's no two ways about it.
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We're we're regional, particularly NBN up here.
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That were fantastic to work with.
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And also, you know, the local radio stations that wanted to get the uh the word out to the the general community.
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Yeah, yeah, that's it, mate.
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Shout out to 2HD.
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I listen to them every day.
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Show my age, mate.
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It's funny, like when I I realised I was getting my old old, I switched from FM radio from you know Nova to 2HD AM.
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I I listen to a lot of Spotify these days.
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Mate, uh like I said, let's get back to the younger days.
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You know, you joined 1981, so you know, I wasn't even born.
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Oh, thanks, mate.
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Yeah, two three years later I was.
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Mate, run me through.
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Like what where'd you grow up and yeah?
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Well, I I I was a Newcastle boy born and bred.
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Um my father was a police officer.
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Mum in her earlier days was a uh a buyer for for the um the clothing side of business.
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Um but with dad, it it got to a stage where you know, about 16 I was looking at leaving leaving school and there was just no apprentices um anywhere.
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And I always wanted to be a carpenter, of all things.
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But anyway, went back to year 11 and 12 at Gateshead High, which was a pretty rough, rough uh knock around school back then.
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Still is.
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Yeah, it is.
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But dad dad pulled me aside one day and he said, Look, what are you gonna do with yourself?
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And I said, Oh, I don't know, I haven't really thought about it.
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And he said, Well, it's one of two things.
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You're either gonna go and join the police or you're gonna go into the military.
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And I went, Yeah, police sounds pretty good to me.
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And that's like I didn't want to go and change the world, you know, be the be the you know, the the super cop or anything like that.
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It was just simply I had great respect for my father.
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So uh yeah.
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And this this is uh obviously in the 70s.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So 1981, I joined as what was then uh junior trainee.
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So we used to have police cadets because of my age.
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I was I was 18 at the time, so uh you couldn't attest um until you were 19.
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Um so I did a little bit of time as a junior trainee down at Chatswood and I worked for what was then the education and training branch, and Jack Avery was the the boss back then.
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And if you know Jack Avery, he used to be one of our police commissioners and and a fantastic individual.
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But anyway, I um I worked there until I went into the academy at Redfern uh and uh and did my time.
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I attested two days after turning 19, and I s I was uh I was allocated to Hornsby Command back then, lived up on the Central Coast and and worked at Hornsby.
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You know, and a funny story was my first day at Hornsby because I'd never I'd never sighted Hornsby Police Station.
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Caught the train down from uh the Central Coast down to Hornsby, got off.
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I thought, which way do I go here to the police station?
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And I thought there's an old lady over there, she'll she'll point me in the right direction.
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Anyway, he said, excuse me.
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I said, It's my first day, and I said, I'm just looking for the police station.
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And the old bugger just laughed at me.
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I thought, oh thanks very much.
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But uh anyway, I found the police station and and that was my uh my first my first station.
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Growing up, how were you uh with the discipline?
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And obviously your dad being a police officer was also I'm sure he gave you a clip here or there when you needed it.
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Yeah, look, you know, mum and dad were were were good parents.
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Um my sister, who was a bit older than me, she was, I always say, she was the brains of the family.
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Um she had a master's in different things in the education side of teaching.
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But for me, I uh I had no real interest in school other than playing sport.
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So I was never academic.
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Um I really enjoyed my my time playing sport, but I did a lot of surfing.
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Most most most sports I played, you know.
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I played soccer, played cricket, um, I played rugby union for for Warata back then.
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Um but uh yeah I found like I I wasn't one to to stray too much from doing the right thing, I guess.
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I was never a goody two shoes, but at the same time I I really enjoyed my surfing, surfed a lot of Dudley um in those days and uh and enjoyed that.
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And as as I said, you know, it was really dad that pulled me aside and said, Well, it's time to knuckle down.
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And I just had you know huge respect for my father.
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Yeah.
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So it was just a case of you know what, dad says, go and do this, that's what I do.
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Yeah.
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How long was he in the job for?
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He was I think probably about 36, 38 years.
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He retired as a chief inspector down on the central coast, which probably now would be the equivalent of our superintendents.
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So he spent a lot of his time up here in Newcastle, though.
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Yeah, yeah.
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He was a he was a well-known detective for many years um around Newcastle, um, well known.
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But um How did they go for you at school, you know, with the other kids?
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They didn't know.
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They didn't know.
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They didn't know.
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Where where my girls, I've got I've got two girls, God love them.
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But the poor buggers, because I was on the media so much.
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Everyone knew.
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Everyone knew.
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And I did a lot of work, which is probably a good thing.
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Yeah.
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I I I I don't know whether that's the case or not, but anyway, um, I always remember at one stage when I was the boss of Newcastle and did a lot of work with the uh with the alcohol regulations and the lockouts and different things.
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And so I did a lot of media, and uh, I always remember the the youngest sort of saying, Dad, do you have to do so much media?
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Everyone at school's giving me such a hard time.
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So, you know, that's that's just a change, I guess, of of the uh the social side of of growing up, you know, from where you know, in my days no one knew who my father was because he was never on the media.
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Yeah.
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Where where through my career I was I did a lot of media, so yeah, the poor old girls really were really copter pizzling at times.
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Oh, I mean that you know, he'd be up there going, Oh yeah, answer this question.
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You're like, if anyone's out there trying to date my daughters, I'll send I'll send the TAU to your door.
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Yeah, I I did ro I I always remember rolling up at at home there one afternoon, you know, I'm in in full uniform and walking in and and one of my daughters was talking to one of the one of the boys on on her bed, and I just stopped and said, uh get out here, go down on the lounge where I can see you, and you don't touch my daughter.
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Yeah, right, mate.
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Uh now back to you know, getting to the academy.
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Again, you spoke about you, you know, your plea your dad uh being a police officer, so that discipline's within your family.
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Uh as you said, you're more into that sports, you're trying to find purpose.
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Obviously, everything else is not gonna fit, so you thought I'm gonna join the police.
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You join the police, get to the academy.
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How did you go down there?
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And again, this is this is a long time ago.
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This is before political correctness, there was there was only two genders.
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It was quite back hands, yeah.
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That's right.
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Yeah, you know, walking through the uh the gates there at Redfern Academy, you know, I can I can still picture it quite vividly.
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Um and the instructors back then, you know, as soon as you walk through, the screaming started, get it get your backside over here.
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Very paramilitary.
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Oh, it was.
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Yeah.
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It was.
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And that time too, that's you know, this is the Vietnam era.
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Yeah.
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Post.
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Yep.
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And of course, for for me being a a surfer, you know, I'd had the the tan skin and the blonde locks.
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Get yeah, get your backside across the road to the barber, go to that barber and get a haircut.
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That was within five minutes, and then report back to me with a haircut.
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Okay.
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But but back then, of course, everything was, you know, it was manual, you know, every everything we read was was in a book, it was paper.
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Um but the instructors back then were, you know, as an 18-year-old, I learnt so much from them, you know, the discipline side of things, still had the respect for them.
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And yeah, if you got a kick in the back side, you you knew you deserved it.
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And you just got on with things and you learnt from the mistake and and moved forward.
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You didn't contact the HR department?
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No.
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There was none.
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There was none.
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There was none.
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So uh yeah.
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How long was the academy?
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Twelve weeks.
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And again, this is in Redfern, not your current day Goblin.
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Yeah, and that that's that's right.
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Twelve weeks at at Redfern.
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Yep.
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Um and I I you know, I think one of the the greatest things that came out of the time at Redfern was signing a one-page document that that um created the pre-88 scheme for me.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So thank God to those instructors for giving me the paper and saying, Don't ask questions, son.
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Sign this.
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Yeah, I remember the the guy at the front of the class said, I'm gonna give you a paper, don't anyone question it, just sign your name to it.
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And of course, you know, the rest is is is history with a predefined scheme that I'm I'm now one as a retired member of the police force.
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Yep, yep.
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Um, just quickly, in regards, you know, you spent 40 years in the police, you've seen the the changes of obviously Red Fern moving to the Golden and turning more into a university subject.
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Now, a lot less things happening at the academy.
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You know, again, you're probably exposed to morgues and dead bodies and everything back then.
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You would have seen, again, seen the changes over the years.
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What type of differences are we talking back in the 80s there?
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Oh, look, huge change from from when I started to to what the men and women go through now.
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Um you know, I was mentioning to you my first day when I went to Hornsby Police Station, my first shift, I was pulled aside by you know a constable, a senior constable, and uh he said, Alright, son, let's go.
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We're we're going down to the morgue.
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I've got a postmortem to to witness.
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And I'd never seen a dead body at that stage.
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So my first day, I was introduced to a dead body and sat through or stood through a post-mortem.
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A couple of times they said, You're right, you know, you you're feeling okay.
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I stuck it out.
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Um but it was uh it was in it was interesting.
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But you know, nowadays it it never happens.
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Um, you know, even police, you know, with some suspicious deaths don't even have to go to the the mortuary anymore to to witness a post-mortem.
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So it's it's changed dramatically, you know.
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Even like I said, the discipline that was, you know, at Redfern, you know, the yelling, you know, you're you're a dickhead, um, you know, wake up to yourself and they they'll apply it, and they'll fuck you, you know, clip over the ear or whatever the case may be, those days have gone.
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Now, whether that's good or bad, um, you could you could sit through a whole host of of people and listen to their stories.
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Um I do think that the psychological side of our men and women these days, um we haven't got that right.
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I I think there's a lot of people that are introduced to policing that go, Whoa is this for me?
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Um I think they they believe that a lot of policing is is very much or very similar to what they see on on television.
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So they're not prepared for it.
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But at the same time, if you're not prepared for it, that's okay.
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It's okay if you had to go to a post mortem and you felt sick or you're you're gonna pass out.
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You'll you'll get through it, you know.
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Someone will give you you can go outside and take a deep breath or throw up or whatever.
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Yeah.
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Um but the the the most important thing is you'll you'll get through it.
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It's not gonna kill you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I I think you know when you talk about the the psychological aspect of people, you know, the cops these days, there's obviously a ton of good cops out there, men, women out there, absolutely killing, and I know a lot, and absolute badasses too, getting out there hunting, doing their job, you know.
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The what the what us as a civilian, what I want them to do is get out there and and bust the criminals, but it sucks with all this social media because the stuff you see on the New South Police social media, they're just selling a false product.
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There's they're showing this happy you know, pride flags and their patterned horses here.
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And what about the door kicking?
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I don't know.
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The the the the you know the times where there's cops getting bashed.
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That's the stuff we want to see because that's going to present what an actual police officer goes through.
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And then, you know, we go through these issues of you know that cop that got charged because you know the kid crashed into his car and the cop a couple of weeks ago down Penrith pushing people.
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Yeah.
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You know, we we're not seeing we're only seeing this, everyone's now blaming the police because they're not seeing what police go through.
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Yeah, yeah.
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The criminal side.
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Yeah, look, there there's so much we could we could discuss and thrash out.
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Which we will, Matt.
00:17:23.009 --> 00:17:23.570
We'll get down there.
00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:34.369
But one of the things that the men and women have to put up with today, the hypervigilance that's caused by you know, every time they step out of the truck, you know, someone's got a camera on them.
00:17:34.690 --> 00:17:35.970
And you go, really?
00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:38.369
Like, why are you why are you doing that?
00:17:38.529 --> 00:17:46.929
These these people, these men and women are only doing the job to protect you and look after, you know, the the victims of crime.
00:17:47.250 --> 00:17:54.130
But but the hypervigilance that's caused by our social media side and the media is just incredible these.
00:17:54.529 --> 00:18:01.409
I think that hypervigilance also is carried on by the lack of do you know the the brass that are not backing their cops, you know.
00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:13.090
For example, you know, the that cop that pushed that guy a couple of weeks ago, it was only the the association that came out and said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, like how about we just slow this down for a second, let's get the full picture before we start pointing fingers.
00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:13.650
Yep.
00:18:13.809 --> 00:18:15.809
Well, you know, where was the the the brass then?
00:18:15.889 --> 00:18:17.170
They should have come out and did the same thing.
00:18:17.409 --> 00:18:17.889
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:26.289
And again, I think that goes more to, and I'd like to think it goes more to um the Sydney metropolitan media than regional media.
00:18:26.610 --> 00:18:26.690
Yeah.
00:18:26.849 --> 00:18:33.970
I think regional media uh like I've I've always found, and I don't want to harp on it, but I always found them so supportive of the local police.
00:18:34.130 --> 00:18:34.369
Yeah.
00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:39.250
And they'd listen, you know, if you said, look, there's more to this story, they'd go, yep, understand.
00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:43.009
Where Sydney, no, it's it's all about the clickbait.
00:18:43.090 --> 00:18:43.329
Yep.
00:18:43.409 --> 00:18:43.650
Yep.
00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:44.450
Yeah, they don't care.
00:18:44.610 --> 00:18:44.769
No.
00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:46.049
They don't care at all.
00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:47.970
Mate, uh, we deviated off track.
00:18:48.049 --> 00:18:56.449
There, we'll we'll talk about all that political stuff down the track because I I find it interesting, and I think there's a lot of young cops out there on the street right now listening to this podcast, going, you know what?
00:18:56.530 --> 00:18:57.650
That's what I feel right now.
00:18:57.730 --> 00:18:59.969
Like, why aren't the pol why aren't the bosses backing me up?
00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:01.090
Anyway, we'll get there.
00:19:01.250 --> 00:19:04.610
Uh back to your academy, you've done 12 weeks down there.
00:19:04.769 --> 00:19:06.130
Uh, what are you getting exposed to?
00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:10.130
And this is back to the old s six shooter and oh yeah, the old Smith and Weston.
00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:10.929
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:11.730
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:11.809 --> 00:19:24.929
So uh, you know, you learnt your your basics like you still do with your firearms, your hand, you know, your handcuffs and all that that basic stuff that you you need to know uh as an officer when you're on the street, uh your powers of arrest and and so forth.
00:19:25.090 --> 00:19:29.170
Like back then we used to know our powers of arrest, you know, off off hand, you know.
00:19:29.489 --> 00:19:30.289
It wasn't on an iPad.
00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:31.730
That wasn't on an iPad.
00:19:31.969 --> 00:19:34.050
You couldn't you couldn't just check it up on your T, yeah.
00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:38.449
You couldn't ask Chat BT BT what's our powers of arrest.
00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:49.010
Um so you you had to learn a lot in regards to you know that basic legisl legislation, regulations, uh how to operate on the street.
00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.170
And and look, I I enjoyed my time.
00:19:51.329 --> 00:19:57.329
You know, I enjoyed for someone who was an academic at school, I actually went, you know what, I'm I'm interested in this.
00:19:57.489 --> 00:19:58.849
This all makes sense to me.
00:19:58.929 --> 00:20:06.050
And I wanted I probably wanted to be the best police officer I could be because I was proud of my father.
00:20:06.449 --> 00:20:09.889
So I I worked worked pretty hard when I went through the academy.
00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:10.769
Yeah.
00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:16.849
You spoke about you finished at the academy, you get to Hornsby, your first day, you check you going into the morgue.
00:20:17.090 --> 00:20:20.610
What's happening in that uh actually we'll go back, you know, this is 40 years.
00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:22.289
Let's let's see if it let's test your memory.
00:20:22.690 --> 00:20:23.170
Oh god.
00:20:23.409 --> 00:20:28.050
How was that first couple of weeks on the job and you know, is is there any arrests involved?
00:20:28.210 --> 00:20:33.170
Did you uh go to any traumatic scenarios, you know, a dead person or whatever?
00:20:33.489 --> 00:20:40.289
Yeah, look, I I think you you know, we we well I was introduced to uh a fair bit uh at Hornsby.
00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:52.210
It wasn't the busiest of of locations, but it was a good it was a good police station to to learn the basics, I guess, and and and uh and introduce you into the world of policing.
00:20:52.369 --> 00:20:53.969
Um yeah, look, I was involved.
00:20:54.210 --> 00:21:06.849
One of the things I loved about working in Sydney was whoever you worked with, like even your senior operators, the ones who were responsible for training you, were only uh probably a constable first class.
00:21:07.010 --> 00:21:10.449
So they'd only been out on the street for you know five minutes themselves.
00:21:10.530 --> 00:21:10.849
Yeah.
00:21:11.170 --> 00:21:16.289
But the thing that I always loved about that was everyone was motivated.
00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:18.929
You know, if if there was a you know an arm.
00:21:20.530 --> 00:21:20.849
No, no.
00:21:20.929 --> 00:21:21.010
Yeah.
00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:24.449
If there was an arm rock, everyone wanted to work and lock up crooks, you know.
00:21:24.530 --> 00:21:28.050
The old basics of, you know, why why why did we join the the cops?
00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:30.130
Because we won't wanted to chase crooks.
00:21:30.449 --> 00:21:31.409
It was like that.
00:21:31.650 --> 00:21:41.889
The amount of pursuits, I always remember being in the pursuit in the old Ford 100 truck, you know, they'd turn the airfield upside down, so it had a more throatier sound to it.
00:21:42.449 --> 00:21:50.690
But you always everyone got excited when up at Mount Penang, the juveniles would break out and they'd steal a car, and guess where they came?
00:21:50.929 --> 00:22:02.530
Down the old F3, as it was known back then, the F3 freeway, and would just sit on the side of the the freeway there somewhere and get into pursuites, and it was just on for men and women.
00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:10.769
Well, I always remember going through the old toll gates and and um the senior officer was driving it on on this occasion.
00:22:10.929 --> 00:22:15.170
And Ded said, I reckon he must have sucked the old operator out of the little box.
00:22:15.409 --> 00:22:16.769
He was going that fast.
00:22:17.010 --> 00:22:26.130
But we used to, you know, have great pursuits, you know, they'd have the uh the poly air up in the in the sky, um, the news cameras were up in in their helicopters.
00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:27.809
It was on on for men and women.
00:22:27.969 --> 00:22:28.210
Yeah.
00:22:28.610 --> 00:22:30.050
It was it was great, it was exciting.
00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:30.690
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:36.530
But I loved working at at Hornsby um with you know other young cops because I was so motivated.
00:22:36.769 --> 00:22:37.250
Yep.
00:22:37.489 --> 00:22:45.969
Just just for the young folk out there, we back in the day we used to have uh toll operators, so they'd sit in the little boom gate, and the boom gate you pay your money and the boom gate would open.
00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:53.010
These days you've got your little tag things, and you don't ever see a a person sitting on the side of the road uh collecting toll money.
00:22:53.090 --> 00:22:54.289
But uh yeah, anyway.
00:22:54.610 --> 00:22:59.889
Your first week on the job, you did you get oh, you know, first couple weeks on the job, you're getting exposed pretty quickly to policing.
00:22:59.969 --> 00:23:02.530
And like you said, you know, you're all pretty young.
00:23:02.610 --> 00:23:06.130
So your your field training officer was quite young as well.
00:23:06.369 --> 00:23:12.050
And like you said, everyone is almost a blank canvas, and everyone's keen, everyone's motivated.
00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:25.010
And I think uh you know, more politically now, there's a couple of field training officers out there that I've heard that have been quite quite lazy, and and this can breed, you know, that that same mentality.
00:23:25.170 --> 00:23:29.570
Whereas you guys were just everyone was young and fighting, and it was not just want to get out and hunt.
00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:41.170
Yeah, I look, there was nothing nothing more when you when you used to come to work and you'd look at the first thing you used to do was pick up the the roster and see which truck you were on and who you were working with.
00:23:41.409 --> 00:23:46.210
And you you're dead said you you would be excited if you were working with a a motor another motorbike on top.
00:23:46.449 --> 00:23:50.289
Yeah, it was great because you knew you You were gonna have fun on the on the shift.
00:23:50.530 --> 00:23:53.889
And uh you'd get involved in anything and whatever came along.
00:23:54.130 --> 00:23:54.289
Yeah.
00:23:54.530 --> 00:24:11.170
Um, you know, when you when you worked with the operator that was, you know, dragging, dragging their feet around, didn't want to, you know, answer answer calls to the radio and different things, it was a bore nothing worse than a boring shift, but man, I I I used to get the shits with with working with lazy cops.
00:24:11.329 --> 00:24:11.730
Yeah.
00:24:11.969 --> 00:24:16.769
Like we said uh earlier, you know, I fit the fitness pays a big part in a lot of this.
00:24:17.170 --> 00:24:22.929
And these days, I guess there's a lot of cops that are quite unfit and I guess very unmotivated.
00:24:23.010 --> 00:24:32.530
And I've heard the stories, you know, every time I do a podcast like this, I'll get messages flooding in the inbox, and like, oh yeah, I know this guy that just doesn't do anything and doesn't answer calls, doesn't care.
00:24:32.849 --> 00:24:34.769
He's only here just because he's getting paid.
00:24:35.489 --> 00:24:38.210
Yeah, look, hopefully we'll come back and discuss a fair bit, Matt.
00:24:38.289 --> 00:24:46.449
But I'd always say to those men and women, if you know, if you're not physically fit, you've really got to have a good look at yourself in the mirror.
00:24:46.610 --> 00:24:55.969
Um, because fitness plays such a key role, not only with doing your job, but also maintaining, you know, as best you possibly can, good mental health.
00:24:56.210 --> 00:24:56.769
Yeah, mate.
00:24:56.929 --> 00:24:58.369
Said it time and time again.
00:24:58.610 --> 00:25:01.650
And if you're out there, just head to zero limitsupplements.com.
00:25:02.610 --> 00:25:04.050
Grab yourself some pre-workout.
00:25:04.289 --> 00:25:05.170
Mate, uh, yeah, right.
00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:07.730
So the first couple weeks on the job, you're down in Hornsby.
00:25:07.809 --> 00:25:09.409
How long did you spend down at Hornsby?
00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:14.610
Uh I spent, I think it was roughly about sort of 15 months thereabouts at Hornsby.
00:25:14.929 --> 00:25:19.409
Um exposed to a lot of policing, of the full spectrum of policing?
00:25:19.570 --> 00:25:27.730
Yeah, look, at Hornsby back then, um used to like motor vehicle accidents were significant, um, bad accidents.
00:25:27.889 --> 00:25:34.849
You know, you'd you'd cringe like you'd get a call because a car's hit the the wall on the um on what was then the F3.
00:25:35.090 --> 00:25:37.489
Used nowadays it's the M1 for people.
00:25:37.650 --> 00:25:40.050
Um but if the car seatbelts were optional.
00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:40.929
That's right.
00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:44.050
And some of the some of the trauma that you would see.
00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:51.570
I always remember one of the most traumatic uh scenes that I went to was um down Bob and Head.
00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:57.889
And if you've ever driven down to Bob and Head, it's a really windy, steep bit of roadway, quite narrow in places.
00:25:58.530 --> 00:26:17.650
And what had happened on this occasion, there was a a young male and and female, and they were with family members down at Bob and Head, they'd spent the day down there, and for whatever reason she got on the the uh the back of the motorbike and off they went up to leave Bob and Head, so they're heading up the hill at speed.
00:26:17.809 --> 00:26:30.530
And he's taken a corner too sharp, hit another car, he was thrown into the the brick wall, um, and and obviously died through you know with with his injuries and she was decapitated.
00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:40.289
But what was worse, so we've got on scene, but what was worse was the family found out, you know, the message got down to them that there was a bad accident.
00:26:40.449 --> 00:26:43.969
And of course, you know, her head was just covered in a tea towel.
00:26:44.289 --> 00:26:45.969
That's the best we could do.
00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:55.489
Um, and removing those bodies from, you know, the the the bodies themselves were you know quite traumatically uh um injured.
00:26:55.969 --> 00:27:07.250
Um but dealing with the family and trying to keep keep them at a distance and looking after their welfare and different things, like for for young cops that was difficult.
00:27:08.130 --> 00:27:12.849
Um and that's something that always stayed with me throughout my career, you know, seeing that scene.
00:27:13.090 --> 00:27:26.449
Again, like I've had a whole plethora of cops on the podcast, and they've they've said that, you know, that always the hardest part is dealing with the aftermath more, you know, the delivering the death message or dealing with the family on scene.
00:27:26.929 --> 00:27:29.809
That's just gotta be a rough, rough scenario.
00:27:30.050 --> 00:27:37.010
Yeah, I look and when you're not only doing it once, you're doing it twice, three, four, five, six, seven, ten how many times have you done it in 40 years?
00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:37.889
Yeah, I know.
00:27:38.130 --> 00:27:38.769
I know.
00:27:39.010 --> 00:27:41.730
Well, look, there was nothing worse than a cot death.
00:27:41.889 --> 00:27:42.530
Yeah.
00:27:42.849 --> 00:27:45.570
They were always so difficult to deal with, you know.
00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:48.449
Having a a mother and father with the the new bub.
00:27:48.849 --> 00:27:51.090
Um, they're just so traumatic.
00:27:51.170 --> 00:28:03.170
And you know, I probably thank goodness there seems to be, I I don't know personally on on the the facts and figures of this, but it it would appear that there's far fewer a lot less these days for sure.
00:28:04.050 --> 00:28:04.449
Which is great.
00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:06.610
Technology Yeah, that's right.
00:28:06.849 --> 00:28:07.730
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:07.809 --> 00:28:11.409
It's I'm sure you did the same when you um when you had your first kids.
00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:14.849
I did the same when my first child, like I used to wake up every night.
00:28:15.090 --> 00:28:24.369
This is 2000, 2007, she was born, and I'd wake up like midnight, just walk up to a cot just to just check, like, is she breathing?
00:28:24.530 --> 00:28:33.250
Yeah, like it was and I did it for months on end, just because it was such a I think I guess a prominent thing, us growing up in the 80s, 90s, etc.
00:28:33.409 --> 00:28:37.969
It was just a like you said, it was it was always on the news too, like oh cot death, cot death, cot death.
00:28:38.769 --> 00:28:59.730
There was look one of the one of the you know, one of the guys I went through um policing with Mick Corboy, Mick did a lot of um um work in regards to Red Nose, which was you know, all in respect to to cot deaths, you know, some some fabulous work by that's one of the things I always admired about so many police.
00:28:59.809 --> 00:29:10.369
Like policing was hard enough, but to then get themselves involved in in some of these sort of social movements and for the betterment of of society, I always take my hat off to them.
00:29:10.610 --> 00:29:11.250
Yeah.
00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:22.369
So you spend that first year and a half down, Hornsby made you get the full exposure to policing, chases, uh, deaths, everything, arrests, suicides, arrests.
00:29:23.409 --> 00:29:23.889
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:24.130 --> 00:29:33.650
Look, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't in terms of major crime, it was more volume crime, you know, accidents, deaths, uh basic drugs.
00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:37.250
But back then it was nowhere near the the scale now.
00:29:37.489 --> 00:29:39.090
The scale that we have today.
00:29:39.329 --> 00:29:43.090
But a lot of juvenile, you know, youth, youth offending and and different things.
00:29:43.250 --> 00:29:46.369
So it was a good place to to learn the basics of of policing.
00:29:46.610 --> 00:29:48.050
Yeah, and where did you go from there?
00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:49.250
Up here into Newcastle.
00:29:49.489 --> 00:29:50.449
That's it, back home, mate.
00:29:50.530 --> 00:29:50.690
Yeah.
00:29:51.090 --> 00:29:52.449
Where did you grow up in Newcastle?
00:29:52.690 --> 00:29:53.489
Out of Charlestown.
00:29:53.730 --> 00:29:54.849
Oh, yep, gotcha, gotcha.
00:29:54.929 --> 00:29:56.369
So where'd you get posted up here?
00:29:56.690 --> 00:29:58.449
Uh started off at Newcastle.
00:29:58.530 --> 00:29:58.929
Yep.
00:29:59.090 --> 00:30:00.289
Um, and what a difference.
00:30:00.369 --> 00:30:09.010
I always remember um like walking into Newcastle police station and just the difference, the age difference.
00:30:09.329 --> 00:30:12.369
So in Sydney I worked with everyone was young.
00:30:12.690 --> 00:30:15.650
And came to Newcastle was like retirement village.
00:30:15.889 --> 00:30:17.090
This was like dad's army.
00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:17.570
Yeah.
00:30:17.730 --> 00:30:21.090
And I and I'm you know, I was the only young single guy.
00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:38.610
Everyone who I'd worked who I worked with was married, and uh and look, you know, their motivation, I guess, for arrests and and getting out on the street was you know, it was waning in in comparison to what I had I'd come from down at Hornsby.
00:30:38.849 --> 00:30:40.369
It was chalk and cheese, I guess.
00:30:40.530 --> 00:30:50.690
I always remember driving down uh Hunter Street Um with a sergeant, and these guys, these two guys started to have a scuffle.
00:30:50.769 --> 00:30:55.730
Anyway, one one guy picked up the other guy and threw him through the plate glass window.
00:30:55.889 --> 00:31:08.929
I think it was like the old store or something like that, down on Hunter Street, and I've hit the brakes to to get involved, and he put his hand across to the the steering wheel and said, No son, keep driving.
00:31:09.010 --> 00:31:10.210
Just they'll they'll sort it out.
00:31:10.449 --> 00:31:11.250
It's Newcastle.
00:31:11.409 --> 00:31:11.730
Yeah.
00:31:11.969 --> 00:31:13.730
And I went, uh, okay.
00:31:14.210 --> 00:31:19.969
So um yeah, I spent a little bit of time at Newcastle before they they sent me here to Mayfield.
00:31:20.050 --> 00:31:20.210
Yep.
00:31:20.449 --> 00:31:23.730
And Mayfield was a really good uh police station to work at.
00:31:24.050 --> 00:31:26.690
I was gonna check the population of Newcastle back then.
00:31:26.769 --> 00:31:27.570
What are we talking about?
00:31:28.929 --> 00:31:30.610
Oh, about 1982, 83.
00:31:31.889 --> 00:31:33.650
Let's check the population.
00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:38.769
You know, you've you've been here a long time.
00:31:39.010 --> 00:31:39.329
Yeah.
00:31:39.489 --> 00:31:41.889
Uh Newcastle population.
00:31:43.409 --> 00:31:45.889
1982, Jesus Christ.
00:31:48.369 --> 00:31:49.730
Uh Wow.
00:31:50.449 --> 00:31:52.449
Only 297,000.
00:31:52.769 --> 00:31:52.929
Yeah.
00:31:53.170 --> 00:31:58.690
Only back well back then you had uh BHP.
00:31:58.769 --> 00:31:58.929
Yep.
00:31:59.090 --> 00:32:00.210
That was in full operation.
00:32:00.530 --> 00:32:02.369
Com steel, full operation.
00:32:02.610 --> 00:32:18.369
And I remember many a night at Mayfield Police Station, particularly in summertime, where you had those really hot humid nights, and like two, three o'clock in the morning, you'd be outside on the front steps of the police station trying to cool down because there was no such thing as air conditioning and and different things.
00:32:18.769 --> 00:32:23.809
And you just had that polluted smell sort of drifting through the steel mill.
00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:24.610
Yeah.
00:32:24.769 --> 00:32:25.010
Yeah.
00:32:26.130 --> 00:32:34.130
I I can I can still picture myself sitting out the front steps with, you know, a couple of the other boys, just, you know, you'd be chatting and trying to cool down.
00:32:34.369 --> 00:32:38.849
And just that that yeah, like a um rotten egg gas.
00:32:39.010 --> 00:32:39.730
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:39.969 --> 00:32:42.210
It had that sort of smell through the through the subway.
00:32:42.610 --> 00:32:45.489
How busy was the Newcastle station at that at that stage?
00:32:45.650 --> 00:32:48.210
Yeah, this is only 300,000 people, so it couldn't be too.
00:32:48.610 --> 00:32:49.969
It wasn't too bad Newcastle.
00:32:50.050 --> 00:32:54.849
Newcastle was I don't know, it was just it wasn't a great station back then.
00:32:55.090 --> 00:32:56.449
Um it was pretty boring.
00:32:56.610 --> 00:32:59.090
Like you used to do a lot of prison runs.
00:32:59.329 --> 00:33:04.289
Um so you'd take the prisoners from the court and you'd run them up to Maitland jail.
00:33:04.530 --> 00:33:06.929
And it was a bit of a funny experience.
00:33:07.010 --> 00:33:08.690
Uh my first prison run.
00:33:09.010 --> 00:33:16.610
I've got up to uh to Maitland jail and opened up the back of the the F 100 truck, and all of a sudden this guy goes, G'day Max, how you going?
00:33:16.929 --> 00:33:18.610
Well, someone I'd been to school with.
00:33:19.650 --> 00:33:27.090
So we were having a bit of a chat before he uh he was taken off by the the corrective services and off he went into the into the jail system.
00:33:27.329 --> 00:33:28.050
G'day Max.
00:33:28.130 --> 00:33:28.769
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:29.969
So but what did he do?
00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:30.369
Dunno.
00:33:30.769 --> 00:33:31.489
Oh, I can't remember.
00:33:31.570 --> 00:33:32.849
I think he was an arson actually.
00:33:33.010 --> 00:33:33.409
Oh, was it?
00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:36.929
Yeah, oh yeah, it was a bit of a bit of a character, bit of a lear.
00:33:37.090 --> 00:33:43.969
Isn't it crazy he'd like how you know you meet up years later, but your life's taken a total different direction.
00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:44.369
Yeah.
00:33:44.610 --> 00:33:50.130
And like I'd like to know what where where do people how does it deviate for people?
00:33:50.369 --> 00:33:59.809
Yeah, and I'm sure you being a police officer, you'd see it, you know, dealing with youth offenders, and I'm sure it stems from their parents being shitbags too, and it just it's a flow on effect.
00:34:00.050 --> 00:34:03.730
Yeah, look, it's you know, I think there's there's that aspect.
00:34:03.889 --> 00:34:07.250
Uh, you know, the the parenting comes into question.
00:34:07.409 --> 00:34:18.929
You know, whether dad, whether mum, whether both were were drug addicts or, you know, they're addicted to alcohol, um, lower socio-economic, you know, they get caught in that that vicious cycle.
00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:40.050
Um But you know, some of the the some of the youth that uh over the over those years that you'd want to kick in the backside or give them a clip around the ear, they were the sons in I won't the girls were pretty good back then, but the sons of lawyers and doctors who would want to say, Do you know who I am?
00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:40.929
Overentitled.
00:34:41.409 --> 00:34:42.130
Overentitled.
00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:42.369
Yeah.
00:34:42.530 --> 00:34:44.210
And he'd go, oh my God.
00:34:44.369 --> 00:34:48.369
You know, do you understand how privileged you are?
00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:52.929
And there's kids that, you know, they're they're lucky to have shoes on their feet back then.
00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:59.889
Um that's you know, that was just something I I you know I picked up from from youth back then.
00:35:00.130 --> 00:35:08.210
But but but for me, I I found um I was pretty I was always pretty sort of easygoing with with people.
00:35:08.289 --> 00:35:21.250
So it was never a case of, you know, if you and I went to school together and you were a bit of a rough head, that that wouldn't cause me to say, Oh, I'm not dealing with you, or I'm not speaking to you if I saw you on the street or if we were out in the surf.
00:35:21.489 --> 00:35:26.289
You know, you're you were someone I went to school with and I'd say, G'day Maddie, you know, how you been, mate?
00:35:26.369 --> 00:35:27.489
Haven't seen you for a while.
00:35:27.889 --> 00:35:31.489
I was always friendly, it didn't matter whether I knew you were a crook or not.
00:35:31.730 --> 00:35:41.250
Um, there was a, you know, obviously uh being a police officer, yeah, you know, we weren't going to be best of mates and and hang around, but certainly I still had respect.
00:35:41.489 --> 00:35:43.170
Yeah, everyone takes their own routes, don't they?
00:35:43.409 --> 00:35:43.969
Yeah, that's right.
00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:44.769
Yeah, yep.
00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:54.929
Yeah, it's funny say that because you know I've got a really you know, a lot of good friends that are within uh outlaw motorcycle groups, and they you know, a couple of them are really good friends I served with.
00:35:55.170 --> 00:35:56.609
And it is what it is.
00:35:56.690 --> 00:35:58.769
They they do what they do, and that's right.
00:35:59.009 --> 00:35:59.969
I'm still mates with them.
00:36:00.049 --> 00:36:01.650
I'm still friends with them because they're good people.
00:36:01.809 --> 00:36:01.969
Yep.
00:36:02.130 --> 00:36:04.130
What do they do on their side hustle?
00:36:04.210 --> 00:36:05.170
That's that's their own business.
00:36:05.250 --> 00:36:05.329
Yeah.
00:36:05.569 --> 00:36:08.049
If you get caught by the police, then that's it again, that's your fault.
00:36:08.369 --> 00:36:09.009
Yeah, that's it.
00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:09.889
That's it.
00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:19.650
Mates, uh, like you said, from there, Newcastle, come out to Mayfield, probably a little bit busier, uh a bit of a it's been a rough area for a very long time.
00:36:19.969 --> 00:36:25.409
Yeah, we had the blue-collar worker and so um it was always rougher.
00:36:25.569 --> 00:36:36.369
You know, there was no like domestic violence was something back then, but it was nowhere near um the the the policing requirements that it is today.
00:36:36.690 --> 00:36:51.170
So, you know, you'd you'd rock up to a house if you know the the father had been, you know, knocking the the mother around, you you you'd still throw the father in for assault and and different things, but it was very hands-on back then.
00:36:51.569 --> 00:36:53.250
As you need to rough them up as well.
00:36:53.489 --> 00:36:57.650
Well give them a you'd allegedly give them a left-right good night.
00:36:57.809 --> 00:36:59.089
You'd never give them a rough up.
00:36:59.250 --> 00:37:00.130
But no, no, no.
00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:00.929
Amazing.
00:37:01.730 --> 00:37:02.690
See the twinkle in your eye.
00:37:02.849 --> 00:37:04.529
It was it was on, it was on.
00:37:04.769 --> 00:37:15.569
I I you know, there was a there was a guy, um, I'll just refer to him as Alex, and and Dead said, he had hands three sizes bigger than than most males.
00:37:15.730 --> 00:37:17.089
Like he was a big boy.
00:37:17.329 --> 00:37:19.089
And this is a police officer.
00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:32.449
And I always remember he was working with one of the sergeants on night work, and the sergeant was out the back having a bit of a kip, and Alex took a phone call and off he went by himself to a domestic um dispute.
00:37:32.609 --> 00:37:34.609
And I said to him, I said, Do you want me to come with him?
00:37:34.769 --> 00:37:36.769
Because I was doing the station back then.
00:37:36.929 --> 00:37:38.049
I said, Do you want me to come with you?
00:37:38.210 --> 00:37:40.609
And he said, No, no, no, it's all good, it's all good.
00:37:40.849 --> 00:37:55.809
Anyway, probably about 45 minutes later, in he comes the back door, and he's got uh it was one of the Pacific Islander boys, the the father, and he's dragging him in with a couple of wallops with the old batten you used to put in your pants back then.
00:37:56.130 --> 00:37:57.089
But it was on.
00:37:57.250 --> 00:38:05.969
He he had fought with this Polynesian guy for you know a good half an hour to get him into the truck, and that's what it was like back then.
00:38:06.130 --> 00:38:12.289
Yeah, it's it's changed so much in regards to you know the the physicality, I guess, of the job.
00:38:12.529 --> 00:38:21.009
Like now, even with you know, dealing with you so so many young people, yeah, you gotta be really vigilant that they're not carrying a knife.
00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:23.409
Well, so every second one they all do now, isn't it?
00:38:23.730 --> 00:38:26.929
They carry knives and that and they'll stick you with a knife as soon as look at you.
00:38:27.170 --> 00:38:27.409
Yeah.
00:38:27.809 --> 00:38:36.529
So it's where where back then it was almost like uh, all right, if if it's if you want to arrest me, we're gonna have a a fisty cuff.
00:38:37.009 --> 00:38:38.690
But that's as bad as it got.
00:38:39.329 --> 00:38:44.130
You know, you'd you'd finish shifts and you'd have blood over your shirt, your shirts would were torn and different things.
00:38:44.289 --> 00:38:46.049
But it was good, it was good fun.
00:38:46.609 --> 00:38:48.929
Um what about the youth crime back then?
00:38:49.009 --> 00:38:52.609
Because again, like we speak about now, it's out of control now, absolutely out of control.
00:38:52.769 --> 00:38:55.650
Only because the kids now they just know we're just gonna get away with it.
00:38:55.730 --> 00:38:55.889
Yep.
00:38:56.049 --> 00:38:57.329
Carrying a knife, who cares?
00:38:57.569 --> 00:39:02.690
Cop's gonna take it, I'll go to court, and they're just like, Oh, he's he's too young anyway, we don't care.
00:39:02.849 --> 00:39:04.929
Dolin Kapax, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
00:39:05.009 --> 00:39:06.690
Yeah, his brain's not developed yet.
00:39:06.849 --> 00:39:07.250
Yes.
00:39:07.489 --> 00:39:11.250
Well, we still had those sort of issues to a a lesser level, yeah.
00:39:11.409 --> 00:39:13.969
Um back in the eighties and and the nineties.
00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:19.650
Um but but certainly now, uh like but well, sorry, let's take a step back.
00:39:19.730 --> 00:39:32.929
So with youth back then, you know, if if someone was arrested, you know, quite often they'd get a foot in the backside, you'd take them home, and then the father would give them the rounds of the the yard.
00:39:33.089 --> 00:39:39.250
Yeah, like it it was just uh the way we we operated back then, and that's what society expected.
00:39:39.329 --> 00:39:39.809
Yeah.
00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:43.329
Today, um, don't touch my son or my daughter.
00:39:43.730 --> 00:39:51.730
Yeah, and and look, now females I I think have become worse to deal with than young males.
00:39:52.289 --> 00:40:02.769
Like some of the scenes that you used to see, or you'd listen to the constables and what they were putting up with, you go, Oh my god, what what is happening with our our young people?
00:40:03.009 --> 00:40:03.809
Yeah, mate.
00:40:04.049 --> 00:40:07.730
But but having said that, there's still some tremendous young people out there.
00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:09.009
Oh, 100%, 100%.
00:40:09.250 --> 00:40:12.289
But like you said, mate, there's uh no repercussions these days.
00:40:12.769 --> 00:40:23.809
Like you said, mate, also, you know, for me, I remember back in the it would have been late 80s, 90s, so I would have been like six or seven years old, ride my pushy, maybe a little bit older, eight or nine or something, I can't remember.
00:40:24.609 --> 00:40:26.449
Wasn't wearing my hat, had my helmet on.
00:40:26.690 --> 00:40:33.329
It was me and my brother, had my helmet, my brother had his helmet on, had my my helmet on the side of just hanging off cop pulls over.
00:40:33.569 --> 00:40:35.009
So mate, put your helmet on.
00:40:35.089 --> 00:40:36.690
I said, well no, I don't have to listen to you.
00:40:37.009 --> 00:40:40.210
Yeah, he gave me a clip, put me in the back of the police car.
00:40:40.369 --> 00:40:45.969
My brother rode to I only lived like a block away from my my dad, mum uh separated.
00:40:46.130 --> 00:40:48.609
He took me to dad's house and then dad flogged me.
00:40:48.690 --> 00:40:49.089
Yeah.
00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:51.809
I'll I I'll tell you what, I wore a helmet for the rest of my life.
00:40:51.889 --> 00:40:53.009
I still wear one now.
00:40:53.170 --> 00:40:53.809
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:58.130
I I reckon as a kid, I was too I was too frightened to step out of line.
00:40:58.210 --> 00:41:05.329
Well, because there was no greater fear for me than getting picked up by the cops and then going, I'm taking you home to your father.
00:41:05.489 --> 00:41:06.449
Back to your father, yeah.
00:41:06.609 --> 00:41:07.329
Oh no.
00:41:09.489 --> 00:41:10.449
Yeah, right, mate.
00:41:10.529 --> 00:41:12.769
So obviously Mayfield, a bit busier.
00:41:12.849 --> 00:41:14.529
How long you spend Mayfield?
00:41:14.690 --> 00:41:17.009
Uh I spent about 18 months at Mayfield.
00:41:17.170 --> 00:41:18.849
One of the things I did in my younger career.
00:41:19.730 --> 00:41:21.409
Sorry, where is the police station in Mayfield?
00:41:21.489 --> 00:41:22.369
It's not there anymore, is it?
00:41:22.529 --> 00:41:24.849
No, I used to, I think it became the post office.
00:41:25.009 --> 00:41:25.329
Sort of.
00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:26.210
It did, yeah.
00:41:26.529 --> 00:41:27.009
Yep, yep.
00:41:27.250 --> 00:41:31.650
Yeah, it was it was um because this is all under command of Waratar, isn't it, now?
00:41:31.809 --> 00:41:32.049
Yes.
00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:32.449
Yeah.
00:41:32.609 --> 00:41:33.089
Yep.
00:41:33.329 --> 00:41:33.650
Yeah.
00:41:33.730 --> 00:41:36.049
So back back then it used to be the old post office.
00:41:36.130 --> 00:41:36.369
Yep.
00:41:36.449 --> 00:41:39.809
Um, and it was a really busy location.
00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:48.289
Um, you know, some of the industrial deaths, oh that you know, they they weren't pleasant to to go and a BH steal.
00:41:48.529 --> 00:41:49.170
Yeah.
00:41:49.409 --> 00:41:59.730
Um but it had pretty well everything, Mayfield, you know, from murders, um, you know, armed robberies, uh, you know, si really serious assaults.
00:41:59.889 --> 00:42:01.650
Uh it was it was a busy place to work.
00:42:01.969 --> 00:42:04.130
Back when people used to rob banks, the good old days.
00:42:04.289 --> 00:42:05.089
Yeah, that's it.
00:42:05.170 --> 00:42:05.809
That's it.
00:42:06.049 --> 00:42:09.809
And and a good crook was was always respectful to the cops.
00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:10.449
Yeah.
00:42:10.609 --> 00:42:15.250
They that you know, quite often if you got a good crook, they'd say, no, fair cop.
00:42:15.569 --> 00:42:16.289
It's a cat and mouse game.
00:42:16.449 --> 00:42:17.409
It was a cat and mouse game.
00:42:17.489 --> 00:42:19.969
If they were good enough to get away, so be it.
00:42:20.130 --> 00:42:23.969
But when you caught them, none of the bullshit you have in today's world.
00:42:24.049 --> 00:42:27.730
Yeah, um, they they basically they would.
00:42:27.969 --> 00:42:29.329
I'll be out in five years and I'll try again.
00:42:29.489 --> 00:42:29.969
Yep, yep.
00:42:30.049 --> 00:42:30.289
Yeah.
00:42:30.529 --> 00:42:31.089
Absolutely.
00:42:31.170 --> 00:42:31.889
That's what they were like.
00:42:31.969 --> 00:42:35.009
So it was, you know, you you'd treat them fairly as well.
00:42:35.409 --> 00:42:39.089
So uh so it's so different, isn't it, to today's world.
00:42:39.329 --> 00:42:40.049
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:40.210 --> 00:42:46.210
Probably because again, back then they knew the they'll uh again, a couple of left rights in the back of the back of the truck.
00:42:46.449 --> 00:42:47.650
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:47.889 --> 00:42:50.769
Well resisting arrest.
00:42:50.929 --> 00:43:03.650
I I when I worked out at Chelsea many years ago, I um I worked with a guy, and we'll just call him Pinger, but he had a bit of a shake in his in his right hand, but when the shake stopped, that's when you're ducked.
00:43:05.569 --> 00:43:06.690
We learned that pretty quick.
00:43:06.929 --> 00:43:07.969
Yeah, right, yeah, right.
00:43:08.210 --> 00:43:08.929
The pinger.
00:43:09.089 --> 00:43:09.569
Pinger.
00:43:10.289 --> 00:43:11.809
Was he on the pingers?
00:43:12.609 --> 00:43:13.489
Not back then.
00:43:13.730 --> 00:43:15.809
Yeah, I suppose, yeah, probably the heroin.
00:43:16.049 --> 00:43:17.329
Um, yeah, right, mate.
00:43:17.409 --> 00:43:19.170
So so how long have you spent at Mayfield?
00:43:19.409 --> 00:43:20.609
Uh, about 18 months, I think.
00:43:20.769 --> 00:43:23.730
And what what's your what's your thoughts here on the rest of your policing career?
00:43:23.809 --> 00:43:25.170
Are you loving air to you?
00:43:25.409 --> 00:43:26.049
No, I loved it.
00:43:26.210 --> 00:43:26.929
This is your career now.
00:43:27.009 --> 00:43:28.369
You're like, yep, visible life.
00:43:28.609 --> 00:43:31.569
It you know, again, this is one thing about the social media these days.
00:43:31.650 --> 00:43:36.769
I think a lot of people see a paycheck, they don't realise that policing is a lifestyle.
00:43:36.929 --> 00:43:38.210
Like it becomes your life.
00:43:38.449 --> 00:43:40.849
Yeah, I look, it it does, and the police become your family.
00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:43.809
There's no two ways about it for the majority of us.
00:43:43.969 --> 00:43:44.849
And you know what?
00:43:45.009 --> 00:43:50.529
Throughout my career, um, I can't tell you the amount of times I looked at a paycheck.
00:43:50.609 --> 00:43:52.529
I was really not that interested.
00:43:52.609 --> 00:43:55.889
As long as I saw something going into my account.
00:43:56.130 --> 00:43:56.929
Not much either, back then.
00:43:57.170 --> 00:44:00.849
Not not much, probably still isn't enough these days for the for the boys and girls.
00:44:01.089 --> 00:44:08.289
Yeah, um, but I I never did think I I I never cared about the money.
00:44:08.609 --> 00:44:11.170
I just loved the the lifestyle.
00:44:11.409 --> 00:44:14.369
Um, you know, the whole thing about policing was was terrific.
00:44:14.529 --> 00:44:23.889
Don't get me wrong, like there was there was times when I had, you know, some shit stuff going on and uh dealing with some some pretty uh ordinary people.
00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:31.409
But putting that aside, I'd I when I retired, I always said if I had my chance again, I'd I'd do it all again.
00:44:31.569 --> 00:44:32.210
Yeah.
00:44:32.849 --> 00:44:35.969
Uh from there, what were your ideas?
00:44:36.130 --> 00:44:38.130
What avenue were gonna take down the police?
00:44:38.210 --> 00:44:38.849
What were you thinking?
00:44:38.929 --> 00:44:41.170
Because obviously there's so many these days, there's a lot more.
00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:41.809
Oh, yeah.
00:44:41.889 --> 00:44:44.130
Look, especially look, I always wanted to be a detective.
00:44:44.289 --> 00:44:44.609
Yeah.
00:44:44.769 --> 00:44:48.690
Um, dad was a detective, so that was my driving force to become a detective.
00:44:48.929 --> 00:44:57.969
And look, back then, um, you know, my whole aspect was if I became a detective sergeant, I I'd be pretty damn happy about that.
00:44:58.289 --> 00:45:07.569
So so back in the early days, I always remember getting pulled aside by one of the one of the senior guys because I'd I went general duties.
00:45:08.049 --> 00:45:16.449
Um back then I applied for the A list and to be to start the training as a detective.
00:45:17.089 --> 00:45:25.250
And the detective inspector back then for the for the district, I think they were called back then, if I remember, pulled me aside and he said, Look, son, he said, you're too young.
00:45:25.409 --> 00:45:30.769
He said, if you want to go back to Sydney, they'll take you tomorrow to to go into uh detective training.
00:45:30.849 --> 00:45:37.409
But up here, we want to see you do at least about probably five years of of good policing, good street policing.
00:45:37.569 --> 00:45:39.409
I said, Look, yep, understand.
00:45:40.529 --> 00:45:51.089
So so with that, um, there was a group of guys on the highway patrol of all things that were probably doing More search warrants in the drug unit.
00:45:51.329 --> 00:45:57.409
And it just caught my eye because, you know, again, you didn't have to work in the station.
00:45:57.650 --> 00:46:02.529
You're out on the on the in the cars and doing pretty well what you wanted to.
00:46:02.690 --> 00:46:13.650
You'd get in the car at the commencement of your shift, and you'd, you know, you could drive, you could drive up to the bay, you could drive out to Musselbrook, you could drive, you know, down to the Central Coast.
00:46:14.289 --> 00:46:16.609
You could do whatever you wanted to do.
00:46:17.009 --> 00:46:25.329
So I I went into the highway patrol and with a couple of other guys, we we got tied up with doing a lot of drug work and I loved it.
00:46:25.569 --> 00:46:36.690
And then we did that much drug work at one stage, the traffic inspector back then pulled us aside and said, listen to you three, if you don't stop it, because you know we weren't giving out tickets.
00:46:36.849 --> 00:46:37.329
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:37.569 --> 00:46:38.609
Just busting drugs.
00:46:38.769 --> 00:46:43.969
If if I stopped a car, I was more interested in just saying, look, just do the right thing and and on your way.
00:46:44.049 --> 00:46:44.690
Thanks very much.
00:46:44.849 --> 00:46:45.809
Have a good day.
00:46:46.049 --> 00:46:51.889
Um, I had no interest in traffic work, but uh yeah, I love the drug side of of things.
00:46:52.289 --> 00:46:56.130
But I was only in the highway patrol for probably about 12 months.
00:46:56.289 --> 00:47:00.049
Um, and the traffic inspector pulled me aside and said, Look, son, you're not suited.
00:47:00.210 --> 00:47:01.170
I went, not suited.
00:47:01.250 --> 00:47:03.089
And he said, No, you're not suited to traffic work.
00:47:03.329 --> 00:47:04.369
Because you did none of it.
00:47:04.609 --> 00:47:04.929
No.
00:47:06.369 --> 00:47:07.889
And I and he said, What do you want to do?
00:47:08.049 --> 00:47:10.130
And I said, I want to be uh be a detective.
00:47:10.449 --> 00:47:14.849
He said, Well, I'm gonna release you from because it used to have to do three years minimum.
00:47:15.089 --> 00:47:23.009
I said, I'm gonna do a release and off you go, back to uniform work and good luck with going into detectives in the future.
00:47:23.409 --> 00:47:33.809
So I went in in I finally got a start at in the detectives out at Charlestown and uh, you know, ran around then for probably I'm just trying to think how long it was.
00:47:34.210 --> 00:47:36.529
Probably about eight years or something like that.
00:47:36.609 --> 00:47:39.889
I I worked uh Charlestown Belmont.
00:47:39.969 --> 00:47:43.009
They were sort of the uh the Southern Lakes area.
00:47:43.089 --> 00:47:44.369
I worked as a detective there.
00:47:44.529 --> 00:47:46.449
I worked as I came into Mayfield.
00:47:46.690 --> 00:47:47.889
This is late 80s?
00:47:48.130 --> 00:47:50.130
Uh this is late 80s into the 90s.
00:47:50.289 --> 00:47:50.609
Yep.
00:47:50.769 --> 00:47:54.049
Uh worked at Mayfield as as a detective, which was terrific.
00:47:54.289 --> 00:47:57.650
Worked with some great, great people there at Mayfield again.
00:47:57.889 --> 00:48:11.650
Um and then there was a forced transfer system that came into place and I was moved down onto the Central Coast, and I worked in a group called the Special Operations Group and worked worked with some great people.
00:48:11.889 --> 00:48:18.369
I worked with uh Mick Gallagher, who was who later became the police minister uh for the Liberal Party.
00:48:18.449 --> 00:48:19.329
I worked with Mick.
00:48:19.489 --> 00:48:28.690
Um my best mate, it was funny, uh my my best mate who we joined together and we worked at Hornsby, he worked at Pennant Hills.
00:48:29.009 --> 00:48:39.250
And when the first day I started at the special operations group, I was walking in one door and he was walking in the opposite door, and we were both starting, and I didn't know and he didn't know.
00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:42.690
We were both starting in the special ops group on the on the same day.
00:48:42.849 --> 00:48:55.809
And we we spent we spent about the next 12 months or or whatever um you know working the Central Coast, serious crime, you know, a lot of murders back then, um, armed robberies.
00:48:56.130 --> 00:48:59.569
What sorry, what is the again, yeah, special operations group?
00:48:59.889 --> 00:49:02.049
It was a bit of a funky sort of squad.
00:49:02.210 --> 00:49:15.730
Um there was a group of detectives, so I think we had about a dozen or you know, perhaps 16, and and it was 50-50, so it was detectives training young up-and-coming A-listers.
00:49:16.609 --> 00:49:25.250
So uh so you had a a training partner, um, and we were really involved in in whatever came along.
00:49:25.409 --> 00:49:35.730
Whatever the the the district bosses back then wanted done, we would we'd get involved and and support whatever crime was was being investigated.
00:49:35.969 --> 00:49:38.289
So it could be anything like drugs or guns or whatever.
00:49:38.529 --> 00:49:39.089
Anything, anything.
00:49:39.329 --> 00:49:40.210
Anything, anything.
00:49:40.449 --> 00:49:45.170
Because I think I know at this time Nick Coutas was part of the DEA.
00:49:45.250 --> 00:49:48.690
Yeah, again, a lot of young cops out there being like, DEA, isn't it American?
00:49:48.929 --> 00:49:51.170
No, there was actually one here in Sydney.
00:49:51.489 --> 00:50:05.329
Yeah, so uh so yeah, we we really had a a fantastic time as as a funky squad, yeah, racing around, roaring around as young blokes on the central coast, um you know, digging into whatever we wanted to investigate.
00:50:05.569 --> 00:50:17.969
Um always that on the Central Coast, uh a bloke did an armed robbery at I think it was the NAB down in uh Man Street at Gosford and off he shot in a stolen car.
00:50:18.289 --> 00:50:25.730
And we we my partner and I pulled it up on Terrogall Drive, heading out towards heading out towards the beach, arrested him.
00:50:25.809 --> 00:50:28.849
Um he was later interviewed, charged and different things.
00:50:29.170 --> 00:50:33.170
Um it was one of the best armed robbers in New South Wales at the time.
00:50:33.329 --> 00:50:34.690
Oh, yeah.
00:50:34.769 --> 00:50:35.489
Don't ask me his name.
00:50:35.809 --> 00:50:36.289
Robin Banks.
00:50:36.449 --> 00:50:37.409
Yeah, Robin Banks.
00:50:37.489 --> 00:50:39.089
He was he was well known.
00:50:39.409 --> 00:50:49.009
And and I got down to district court when it was going to trial, and it was it was thrown out, it was dismissed because back then it was the start of the Royal Commission.
00:50:49.730 --> 00:50:55.089
And found out that you know one of the one of the detectives who was involved connected.
00:50:55.409 --> 00:50:57.009
There was some connection there.
00:50:57.250 --> 00:51:00.690
Um and at it just yeah.
00:51:01.009 --> 00:51:08.609
Yeah, investigators for the Royal Commission sort of came forward, gave evidence to to the judge at the at the time.
00:51:08.769 --> 00:51:18.210
And of course, as a as a young detective, I thought, holy shit, like I'm gonna get dragged into some Royal Commission, which I had no idea what the hell had gone on.
00:51:18.449 --> 00:51:23.250
And uh as it turned out, I I was never spoken spoken to.
00:51:23.409 --> 00:51:23.730
Yeah.
00:51:23.889 --> 00:51:28.609
Well, so you know, I think I had a reputation where uh you know, don't bother, you're squeaky clean.
00:51:28.769 --> 00:51:29.489
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:30.449
Thank God.
00:51:30.690 --> 00:51:31.969
Yeah, thank god.
00:51:32.210 --> 00:51:32.529
All right.
00:51:33.889 --> 00:51:42.210
I'd like to um probably read more up on that Royal Commission back in the day because it was a tarna corruption, tarn of corruption again, like again, different times.
00:51:42.289 --> 00:51:45.650
Yeah, that's technology, yeah, bank robberies, yeah.
00:51:45.889 --> 00:51:46.929
Good movies.
00:51:47.730 --> 00:51:55.009
So you get into this detective side of things, any crazy murders that you had to anything wild.
00:51:55.250 --> 00:51:58.049
Anything wild, geez, I'd there's a few.
00:51:58.289 --> 00:51:58.929
Yeah.
00:51:59.329 --> 00:52:09.489
Look, probably I I always remember this investigation which which really tore at my heart and my partner's heart, and it came back to Mayfield actually.
00:52:09.809 --> 00:52:22.449
My mate and I uh we were working an afternoon shift this day, and and in any event, a young six-year-old girl had been abducted from a house at Mayfield, and she was a little Polynesian girl.
00:52:22.690 --> 00:52:29.809
And as it turned out, she was abducted and sexually assaulted by this grub who thankfully we were able to to catch.
00:52:30.369 --> 00:52:41.329
And uh and I always remember having him in the interview room, and you know, i it just felt like tearing him apart for what he'd done to this little girl.
00:52:41.969 --> 00:52:51.569
And my mate and I had a had a bit of a chat, and we stuck to the script because what we wanted to do was was put this bloke in in prison.
00:52:52.849 --> 00:53:18.849
And that that job always stuck with me because of the the the young girl's age, uh, what he'd done to her, and then dealing with the parents, and they were wonderful Polynesian family, um, just the heartbreak that they were going through, and they had a number of of children, of course, but um that was always an investigation that that that caused me some grief over over the years.
00:53:19.170 --> 00:53:31.250
But look, I I used to always love um drug work, used to always love drug work and uh you know getting drugs off the street and different things, and I th to me it was always a bit more exciting.
00:53:31.489 --> 00:53:33.250
Drug work and armed robbery.
00:53:33.409 --> 00:53:38.609
That that were the two probably favourite things that that I enjoyed investigating.
00:53:38.849 --> 00:53:45.409
I did a stint with major crime, uh, the armed robbery unit, um, back back in the days.
00:53:45.569 --> 00:53:53.650
So what they used to do is bring some of the young detectives from like the patrols back then into the the major crime.
00:53:53.969 --> 00:53:57.809
Um and you you play hard you played hard and you worked hard.
00:53:58.049 --> 00:54:08.049
And we did a lot of work up on on the Mid North Coast with uh with Aboriginals who were you know doing uh robberies a around the location at the time.
00:54:08.210 --> 00:54:11.730
So we spent a lot of time up on the Mid North Coast.
00:54:12.289 --> 00:54:23.009
How do you um you know, in reference back to that six-year-old guy, like how do you refrain yourself from you know you're sitting across from this piece of shit?
00:54:23.569 --> 00:54:30.929
How do you do like it's one of the most difficult things you And it's not the first time too, like there's multiple occasions when you're like I want to just pummel this prick.
00:54:31.170 --> 00:54:31.969
Yeah, that's right.
00:54:32.130 --> 00:54:33.329
Or or throw them out the window.
00:54:33.489 --> 00:54:36.369
Yeah, push it with you know a couple of couple of stories up.
00:54:37.089 --> 00:54:46.849
Um but I guess that the bottom line was it was always a case of you know what, I don't want to lose this case because we've we've lost control over of our own emotions.
00:54:47.009 --> 00:54:47.409
Yeah.
00:54:47.650 --> 00:54:53.809
So it was more important to to get a good brief around the individual and and get them into the into the court system.
00:54:54.049 --> 00:54:54.449
Yeah.
00:54:54.690 --> 00:54:56.849
Yeah, I that's probably why I'm not a police officer.
00:54:57.089 --> 00:55:02.130
But uh I had uh I had Chief uh Chief Hall Grimson on, an American cop.
00:55:02.449 --> 00:55:05.409
He went through this, but he ended up bashing this guy.
00:55:05.650 --> 00:55:15.170
So got a call one day, he's a chief of this uh this county or this police station, gets a call, there's a uh a girl that's been thrown into a an in drowning in a lake.
00:55:15.650 --> 00:55:24.769
They get there freezing lake to this is uh winter time in the US, gets there, turns out the father uh launches kid into the like to kill it crazy.
00:55:24.849 --> 00:55:29.650
Uh he gets the baby out, resuscitates, keeps it alive, back to the ambos.
00:55:29.889 --> 00:55:31.009
They arrest the father.
00:55:32.130 --> 00:55:40.849
The father's taken back to the police station, chief's just warming up, getting dressed, getting his clothes, kit back on, heads back to the police station, sees him sitting in the in the lobby.
00:55:42.449 --> 00:55:42.690
That's it.
00:55:43.969 --> 00:55:45.730
Just all red and just bashed him on the front.
00:55:45.969 --> 00:55:49.650
They charged him, got kicked out of the police and everything, and everyone backed him at the end of the day.
00:55:50.449 --> 00:55:50.929
Good job.
00:55:51.009 --> 00:55:52.449
Yeah, should give him a medal.
00:55:52.609 --> 00:55:52.769
Yeah.
00:55:53.329 --> 00:56:01.250
It's just yeah, look, it it it it's so difficult, but uh it's so important to to keep your emotions in check as a police officer.
00:56:01.809 --> 00:56:02.210
Of course.
00:56:02.369 --> 00:56:10.849
You know, as much as that's what you would you would like to do, and you know what, it probably would stand the pub test in in many cases.
00:56:11.089 --> 00:56:13.250
Um you probably get his time in prison too.
00:56:13.489 --> 00:56:13.969
Well, that's right.
00:56:14.849 --> 00:56:31.250
It's it's I'm not quite sure what the prison system's like these days, but back then I think if you were if you were a pedophile or you know that the guy we threw in for the the sexual assault, the raping of of the young Polynesian girl, he he would have got his just dues in inside.
00:56:31.489 --> 00:56:31.969
Surely.
00:56:32.210 --> 00:56:34.049
Surely the good crooks would yeah, sort of.
00:56:34.289 --> 00:56:36.369
Yeah, I just saw one in the US a couple of weeks ago.
00:56:36.449 --> 00:56:42.529
Again, the US of of all places, they lured the the pedo into the into his cell and they killed him.
00:56:42.690 --> 00:56:48.690
Well they you know, if I was a judge, I'd be like, Yep, uh, your sentence has been quashed, you can you're allowed to go.
00:56:48.849 --> 00:56:49.250
Yep.
00:56:49.489 --> 00:56:50.769
Thanks for serving your time.
00:56:51.009 --> 00:56:51.809
Yeah, that's it.
00:56:51.969 --> 00:56:52.529
That's it.
00:56:52.769 --> 00:56:57.650
But no, with investigations, you know, I I did a lot of drug work, um robberies, yeah.
00:56:57.889 --> 00:57:05.250
Uh um as a detective sergeant, I worked on uh outlaw motorcycle gangs uh for a period of time.
00:57:05.409 --> 00:57:08.289
Um what they were involved in and different things.
00:57:08.529 --> 00:57:11.009
Um have you seen them change over the years?
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:15.089
Again, they've they're more Nike bikes now, and some don't even ride motorbikes.
00:57:15.250 --> 00:57:15.409
Yeah.
00:57:15.809 --> 00:57:18.289
Back then, you know, this was reeling off that Vietnam era.
00:57:18.449 --> 00:57:19.969
A lot of them were Vietnam veterans.
00:57:20.130 --> 00:57:20.369
Yep.
00:57:20.449 --> 00:57:22.929
Yep, obviously, you know, drugs and guns.
00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:26.210
Uh drugs, guns, you know, the money laundering side of things.
00:57:26.289 --> 00:57:26.529
Yeah.
00:57:26.609 --> 00:57:33.969
Um, they were heavily involved, but you know, they they you know, I think with New South Wales police and like bringing in Raptor.
00:57:34.049 --> 00:57:34.449
Yep.
00:57:34.609 --> 00:57:37.250
Um Raptor's done a lot to they did well.
00:57:37.329 --> 00:57:38.449
Yeah, they did really curb.
00:57:38.929 --> 00:57:39.969
Especially here in Newcastle.
00:57:40.049 --> 00:57:41.009
Yeah, done well.
00:57:41.250 --> 00:57:43.489
Really done some uh some great work.
00:57:43.809 --> 00:57:45.250
Um Deb Wallace.
00:57:45.489 --> 00:57:46.130
Yeah, Deb.
00:57:46.289 --> 00:57:47.250
Yeah, she's a character.
00:57:47.329 --> 00:57:48.289
Yeah, I love Deb.
00:57:48.369 --> 00:57:50.449
Yeah, but uh hell of a nice lady.
00:57:50.529 --> 00:57:56.130
But yeah, when she was running things, um yeah, they they did some fantastic work on the bikes.
00:57:56.529 --> 00:58:04.289
She's been on the podcast and uh she'd rock up in her pink frock and give it to the the rebel's boss or whatever bosses out there, and yeah.
00:58:04.529 --> 00:58:14.849
I think one one one of them said she had a big bum or something, and she ended up taking down and got his house taken away from him and his motorbikes and apparently come grovelling.
00:58:15.089 --> 00:58:15.809
Yeah, right.
00:58:16.049 --> 00:58:17.250
Yeah, no, no, no.
00:58:17.409 --> 00:58:25.969
Deb's yeah, Deb was you know, she was a a fantastic police officer, great, great detective, and then just a wonderful person.
00:58:26.130 --> 00:58:26.609
Yeah.
00:58:26.929 --> 00:58:27.889
Wonderful kind person.
00:58:28.369 --> 00:58:37.089
She I think she's a really good example of you know not being you know, uh of a physical presence towards uh policing.
00:58:37.250 --> 00:58:43.089
Obviously, she's not gonna be one out there getting scuffles, but uh strategically uh that's what you need.
00:58:43.329 --> 00:58:51.809
You know, you need those people that are just strategically smart and use your police on the ground, your strong cops like Andrew Murphy, send them in to do the job.
00:58:52.049 --> 00:58:54.210
That's that's what your police are there to do.
00:58:54.369 --> 00:58:54.929
Yeah, 100%.
00:58:55.329 --> 00:59:09.250
Deb, you know, as you sort of rightly said, she was always well dressed, she was very feminine, and but when she spoke, she spoke with uh a a strong or you know, strong authority and to get the message across.
00:59:09.409 --> 00:59:14.130
Basically, you know, you want to commit this crime, we will chase you and game on.
00:59:14.289 --> 00:59:14.849
Yeah.
00:59:15.329 --> 00:59:25.730
Type of commissioner that I think New South Wales police needed, you know, like Nick Caldus or yourself, mate, you know, people with yeah, what with strategic and balls to say things and get things done, yeah.
00:59:25.969 --> 00:59:31.089
Unlike some previous commissioners who don't even know what your calibre of your pistol is.
00:59:31.250 --> 00:59:31.809
Yeah, I know.
00:59:32.049 --> 00:59:33.089
What's going on?
00:59:34.369 --> 00:59:35.009
Yes.
00:59:35.329 --> 00:59:39.089
We'll talk about uh that that top level soon, mate.
00:59:39.250 --> 00:59:41.409
Um, so you're in this detective stuff.
00:59:41.489 --> 00:59:55.409
You you know, this is your uh you start working at the special operations group 1995, and you're spending a lot of time in the Central Coast, working your way up here, Raymond Terrace, Lower Hunter, etc.
00:59:55.809 --> 00:59:59.889
Yeah, 15 something years in the job, you're still just cracking along, loving it.
00:59:59.969 --> 01:00:03.170
And now are you starting to see the rank structure now?
01:00:03.329 --> 01:00:12.369
Is that is that yeah, well, Peter Ryan and love him or hate him is the the British pommy who came out as our police commission commissioner.
01:00:13.009 --> 01:00:19.569
He probably did more for New South Wales police than any other commissioner in my working time.
01:00:20.210 --> 01:00:37.329
Um, you know, obviously through forensics, uh, but the whole restructure, the restructure of commands, um, bringing in, you know, the structure of you know, a crime manager, duty officers with the superintendent in charge of a local area command.
01:00:37.569 --> 01:00:44.130
He he did so much in regards to improving policing, crime management units, the the structure that was created.
01:00:44.609 --> 01:00:54.529
So so back in the mid-90s, I had applied for a detective sergeant's position down at Woi Woi, and I won won that position.
01:00:55.250 --> 01:01:01.650
And shortly after they they flipped myself and the guy who won Raymond Terrace at the time.
01:01:01.889 --> 01:01:03.969
We were both promoted at the same time.
01:01:04.130 --> 01:01:08.210
He came from the Central Coast, I came from Newcastle, so they flipped us across.
01:01:08.609 --> 01:01:14.049
Um, needless to say, his father was a ex-assistant commissioner and said, I'll do whatever you want.
01:01:14.210 --> 01:01:17.730
Yeah, but but it means me getting closer to home, that's great.
01:01:17.969 --> 01:01:39.809
So I I probably then spent uh some of the best years of my policing with a team of guys, um, you know, Wayne Humphrey, Pete Jenner, Graham Parker, um fantastic, fantastic detectives, um, great people, and to this day we're probably you know solid as good mates.
01:01:40.609 --> 01:01:46.049
And of course Raymond Terrace was you know, it was a busy location because we did up to the bay.
01:01:46.369 --> 01:01:56.049
But right about then, uh as a detective sergeant running around, um, things started to change with, as I said, with Peter Ryan, with the change of the organizational structure.
01:01:56.529 --> 01:02:09.650
And so, you know, a lot of the older rank and file, uh, left left police, you know, whether they were pissed off, passed over, whatever the case may be, they left.
01:02:09.889 --> 01:02:22.210
And so all of a sudden it sort of opened up to uh people like myself, um, albeit I was probably still quite young at the time, but I had the opportunity to apply for positions.
01:02:22.289 --> 01:02:27.730
And I applied for what back back then uh was the crime manager down at Tugra Lakes.
01:02:27.809 --> 01:02:52.369
I applied for a number of crime manager positions, so a crime manager was in charge of detectives in the crime management unit as a detective, and I won the position down on the central coast at Tugra Lakes, and working with the men and women down there on the central coast, I say I was a detective chief inspector, and that was probably one of the highlights of my career.
01:02:52.529 --> 01:02:58.529
I've never worked with greater people, it was the busiest location that I've ever worked at.
01:02:58.690 --> 01:03:03.730
Um, from murders, you know, you'd have almost a murder of you know, a fortnight.
01:03:03.889 --> 01:03:09.409
Like there was because it was what we used to call it was Mount Drew It by the Ocean.
01:03:09.489 --> 01:03:09.809
Yeah.
01:03:09.969 --> 01:03:15.409
You know, that top end of Wyong, all the W suburbs that were Daubers, um, etc.
01:03:16.130 --> 01:03:31.250
Um, it was just fraught with low socioeconomic domestic violence was out of control, um, yeah, your drugs, your re your robberies, your murders, um, it was just an incredible place to work.
01:03:31.730 --> 01:03:47.250
But, you know, I always say that the men and women down there never had the opportunity to sit around the meal room and and sort of probably, you know, shitload on onto the cops, you know, how how stuffed the job is and different things.
01:03:47.329 --> 01:03:48.529
They were too busy.
01:03:48.769 --> 01:03:58.849
And I always think it was really healthy for them because everyone really worked closely, they looked after each other, um, did some terrific work.
01:03:59.009 --> 01:04:08.049
One of the things I'm really proud of down there was I created a um what we eventually called DART, was a domestic assault response team.
01:04:08.289 --> 01:04:13.569
And what we did, we worked with back then was Dox or Family Community Services.
01:04:13.889 --> 01:04:24.210
And when we sat down and looked at our repeat offenders, our repeat offenders as police married up with the repeat offenders they were doing work on.
01:04:24.449 --> 01:04:30.449
And so we we engaged and and created a team, a joint team between the pair.
01:04:30.849 --> 01:04:42.210
And really, that was all about my my whole driving philosophy with that was about trying to reduce for the men and women on the trucks the amount of domestic violence incidents they were going to.
01:04:42.449 --> 01:04:43.409
And it worked.
01:04:43.650 --> 01:04:57.809
Within 12 months, they so in the first three months, um, you know, the the intelligence side of the house would would run some data and they would identify, you know, top 10 repeat offenders within five minutes.
01:04:58.049 --> 01:05:02.609
And that was, you know, you'd only have to really go through a few weeks of of data.
01:05:03.009 --> 01:05:11.009
By the end of 12 months, they were going through six months, eight months, nearly 12 months of data to try and find repeat offending.
01:05:11.250 --> 01:05:19.809
So what what what was the crux of that was police really focused on um case managing individual repeat offenders.
01:05:20.049 --> 01:05:26.769
And we asked docs to really focus on managing the family, re-managing the victims and the family.
01:05:26.849 --> 01:05:30.529
You know, did they need financial support, whatever the case may be?
01:05:30.690 --> 01:05:41.409
At the same time, and I was always big on this, um, and and I I'd get yelled down by some of the left wingers with domestic violence.
01:05:42.130 --> 01:05:49.170
The argument my argument was, you know what, if you're a repeat offender or you were involved in domestic violence, what is driving you in that direction?
01:05:49.329 --> 01:05:53.650
Was it drugs, was it alcohol, was it uh financial pressures?
01:05:53.969 --> 01:05:59.489
Get them into some sort of management course to try and break the cycle.
01:05:59.730 --> 01:06:07.730
But of course, there was people, you know, the left wingers, who would want to argue, what are you doing with they they should just simply go to jail.
01:06:07.809 --> 01:06:10.130
Well, that's not gonna break the cycle.
01:06:10.369 --> 01:06:21.889
So there was a lot of work done on the Central Coast, which uh at the time was was groundbreaking, but it was only financed probably, I think, for a few years by government.
01:06:22.130 --> 01:06:24.690
And this is part of the problem with government.
01:06:25.009 --> 01:06:30.769
They will trial things and they'll give you some financial backing, but it's only there for a period of time.
01:06:30.929 --> 01:06:35.889
Whether that's 12 months, two years, generally it's around about that that sort of time frame.
01:06:36.609 --> 01:06:38.289
And then the money's taken away.
01:06:38.369 --> 01:06:49.730
And if you want to continue with like Dart, for instance, if you wanted to continue with that, you'd have to find the finances from within policing or you know, with with docs at the time.
01:06:50.130 --> 01:06:57.409
So it made things quite quite tight, of course, because you didn't have budgets for for that sort of uh managing.
01:06:58.130 --> 01:07:02.769
So, but that was that was some terrific work done by the by the men and women.
01:07:02.929 --> 01:07:06.769
And then the other the other side of this, this is how successful they were.
01:07:07.489 --> 01:07:29.009
So at Wyong Court, where domestic violence uh matters would take up, you know, two, three days of of the court sitting, within that 12, 18 months time frame, they were they they had finished all the domestic violence uh in s matters by morning tea.
01:07:29.569 --> 01:07:31.969
So it was it was fantastic.
01:07:32.289 --> 01:07:45.250
The the work that was done back then by by the by the men and women who were involved in in, you know, from the policing side and with the aside from Department of Community Services, they did some fabulous work.
01:07:45.730 --> 01:07:51.409
What are they doing these days with domestic it's just back to that Put them in prison and they're back out and they do the exact same thing.
01:07:52.449 --> 01:07:55.650
And you know, we we've seen it you know in the in the past more recently, you know.
01:07:55.730 --> 01:08:08.289
I think uh just saw something the other day, you know, there's kids getting killed by these m you know people like, oh men get domestic yeah, men killing women and kids like 99% of the time.
01:08:08.529 --> 01:08:31.569
Yeah, but this was one uh it's a crime type that I was always really passionate about, not so much in regards to you know the the victims and the perpetrators, but for the police, the impact on the men and women who like nowadays all they do on a truck is they'll go from domestic to domestic to domestic.
01:08:32.050 --> 01:08:32.850
I've heard that, yep.
01:08:33.010 --> 01:08:40.210
And the poor buggers, like the amount of, you know, like that, if that can't impact on your mental health, I don't know what does.
01:08:40.529 --> 01:08:48.130
Because when they walk into a you know, they go to a house and they start to investigate, you don't know to start with what you're walking into.
01:08:48.369 --> 01:08:49.250
Is someone armed?
01:08:49.409 --> 01:08:50.369
Has someone got a knife?
01:08:50.529 --> 01:08:52.770
Yeah, you know, all those sorts of things.
01:08:53.090 --> 01:09:14.369
Then, you know, you're dealing with the perpetrator, you're dealing with the victim, you get them, you know, the perpetrator out, you charge them, the victim, you you you support, you get them to court, or if you're lucky, you get them to court, because so many victims will flip at the last moment because they're back in love, and it's just that cycle of domestic violence.
01:09:14.529 --> 01:09:25.090
But but the men and women on you know who go around in the in the battle trucks, I take my hat off to them and I always admire them for the work they do with course, yeah.
01:09:25.329 --> 01:09:28.210
It's just I think the thresholds change with domestic violence, do now?
01:09:28.609 --> 01:09:29.090
Oh, it is.
01:09:29.650 --> 01:09:30.529
You've got to take action.
01:09:30.770 --> 01:09:31.650
Well, yeah, you have to.
01:09:31.970 --> 01:09:32.690
You've got to take action.
01:09:32.930 --> 01:09:33.970
You just don't know how far it's gonna go.
01:09:34.050 --> 01:09:36.690
And we're again in the in the past we've just seen it.
01:09:38.369 --> 01:09:39.090
Many getting killed.
01:09:39.250 --> 01:09:39.489
Yeah.
01:09:39.650 --> 01:09:53.890
But in the past also, Matt, I've seen some police work harder to piss the matter off and hide it, then actually, you know, it would have been a lot quicker to just made make make the arrest and get that person to court.
01:09:54.050 --> 01:09:54.289
Yep.
01:09:54.449 --> 01:10:07.010
And of course, what they'd have to always keep in the back of their mind, if they don't follow the the process, the procedures, the legislation, and something does happen to the victim, guess what?
01:10:07.409 --> 01:10:09.329
Which has happened on numerous occasions.
01:10:09.649 --> 01:10:13.809
We we see it all not all the time, but we do see it from time to time through the media.
01:10:14.130 --> 01:10:30.130
And those those police officers who were involved in in that initial investigation are then under investigation by you know internal internal police, um, or even you know, an oversight from from Leck, the Law Enforcement Crime uh Commission.
01:10:30.529 --> 01:10:31.170
Yeah.
01:10:31.489 --> 01:10:37.409
Yeah, mate's uh for the listener out there, I know some of you are gonna go, oh, men get beat up by women all the time, too.
01:10:37.569 --> 01:10:38.449
You're an arsehole.
01:10:38.769 --> 01:10:45.890
Anyway, I'm just pointing out the obvious, it's generally the male that's uh causing a lot of the issue out there.
01:10:45.970 --> 01:10:47.890
Let's let's all be real about things.
01:10:48.130 --> 01:10:50.609
Um but anyway, my words, my words.
01:10:50.849 --> 01:10:52.449
Come at me, not Max.
01:10:52.609 --> 01:10:54.289
He's not a cop anymore.
01:10:55.090 --> 01:10:56.609
Mates, uh yeah, right.
01:10:56.930 --> 01:10:59.329
And where are we at?
01:10:59.489 --> 01:11:01.569
Uh you're still detective chief.
01:11:01.809 --> 01:11:03.170
How many guys have you got under you?
01:11:03.329 --> 01:11:04.689
Like how many staff?
01:11:05.010 --> 01:11:12.050
Uh back then I had a I think a uh detective's office, roughly around 30 thereabouts.
01:11:12.210 --> 01:11:12.609
Yep.
01:11:12.849 --> 01:11:27.970
Um, crime management unit of probably about a dozen people and crime management units like intelligence, domestic violence, liaison officer, youth liaison officer, um crime crime um management.
01:11:28.050 --> 01:11:34.050
Um I'm just trying to think of a couple of the other positions that that would flitter in and out of the out of the team.
01:11:34.369 --> 01:11:40.130
But you also, you know, you were across the intelligence, the data side of crime in general.
01:11:40.369 --> 01:11:50.050
You know, what's happening with breaking inn is what's happening with all your volume areas of of assaults and domestics and you know, thefts and and so forth, stolen motor vehicles.
01:11:50.210 --> 01:12:00.210
So you did a lot of strategic sort of planning and and uh and looking at various crime methods to to try and impact on it on a crime trend.
01:12:00.609 --> 01:12:03.409
But that unit, like you said, is just busy.
01:12:03.649 --> 01:12:05.250
Job to job to job.
01:12:05.409 --> 01:12:08.050
You're falling behind because you're on another job and blah blah blah.
01:12:08.369 --> 01:12:10.289
Tugra Lakes was continues on.
01:12:10.449 --> 01:12:12.529
Yeah, Tugra Lakes was extremely busy.
01:12:12.689 --> 01:12:19.090
Like the detectives there, the amount of murders that they were dealing with, and some pretty horrific ones.
01:12:19.329 --> 01:12:26.689
Um plus I always rem you know one of the worst ones was uh a family of young kids who were burnt to death.
01:12:27.010 --> 01:12:32.130
And you know, we were doing the the forensic basically a a forensic debrief.
01:12:32.609 --> 01:12:35.329
Um, you know, and was it domestic, was it?
01:12:35.569 --> 01:12:37.090
No, no, it's no forensic.
01:12:37.329 --> 01:12:41.090
No, sorry, with the the kids burnt to death, what what was this what was the scenario?
01:12:41.489 --> 01:12:45.090
I don't think it was a domestic, I think it was just it was just a house fire.
01:12:45.409 --> 01:13:00.689
But seeing the photographs of of you know the the bodies of the young children and stuff and and sitting there through the debrief from the forensic side, like the forensic side, if you've never been involved in forensics, like it's so it's so interesting.
01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:05.489
But what I was also looking at was the impact it was having on my offices.
01:13:05.729 --> 01:13:06.289
Of course.
01:13:06.529 --> 01:13:07.890
And also forensics.
01:13:08.050 --> 01:13:25.170
I I don't know how the men and women do the forensic side of you know it it should be a short-term, you know, skill to, you know, do 10 years, I guess, because you know, they do so much study and and different things in forensics, but how they do that for a career on is beyond me.
01:13:25.409 --> 01:13:30.849
I take my hat off to to to their diligence and and what they put themselves through.
01:13:31.010 --> 01:13:34.449
They're fantastic people, but and they do some incredible work.
01:13:34.769 --> 01:13:35.409
Yeah, mate.
01:13:35.489 --> 01:13:40.689
It's just like the you know, we're talking about the child abuse coin that I've got here from Detective John Bretter back in the day.
01:13:40.769 --> 01:13:41.569
Same thing for them, mate.
01:13:41.729 --> 01:13:44.369
Like how did the how do they deal with that?
01:13:44.930 --> 01:13:53.489
You talk about PTSD, yeah, those men and women who work in crime, uh, the child mistreatment units and and investigate that sort of crime.
01:13:53.729 --> 01:14:03.649
One of my best mates did that, and yeah, he's he's been long gone out of out of the cops, but there was never a a side of policing that I was I wanted to get involved in.
01:14:03.890 --> 01:14:11.809
So I have the highest respect for those men and women who've but valuable what they do, uh very you know, just an integral part, especially these days, mate.
01:14:11.890 --> 01:14:14.769
Like it just seems like again it's just getting worse.
01:14:16.210 --> 01:14:22.529
Now, again, you spend what two years at this Tugra Lakes, and now you get you get promoted again, mate.
01:14:22.769 --> 01:14:23.250
To superintendent.
01:14:23.569 --> 01:14:25.729
Next level next level up, more people under you.
01:14:25.970 --> 01:14:26.609
Yeah, yeah.
01:14:26.849 --> 01:14:44.289
So, you know, how uh it's it's interesting how that sort of um came about because I would you know I I was quite young as as a commission officer, and I'd never relieved as a as a boss, never relieved as a superintendent.
01:14:44.849 --> 01:14:59.649
And my boss, who was a a fantastic uh operator, a great leader of of men and women, Alan Clark, he was my boss on the central coast at Tugwell Lakes, and he was moving on to Brisbane Water, so Gosford.
01:15:00.210 --> 01:15:08.849
And so Tugwood Lakes was becoming vacant, it would go into the promotion pool, and he spoke to me about throwing my hat in the ring.
01:15:08.930 --> 01:15:12.689
He said, Look, you're a dark horse because you've never relieved and and so forth.
01:15:12.930 --> 01:15:16.210
But he said I'd encourage you to have a go at it.
01:15:16.609 --> 01:15:23.970
And I went home and and spoke to my then wife, who who well, that's my first wife, and she was very supportive.
01:15:24.130 --> 01:15:35.329
But she said to me, and I'll always remember her words, if you don't have a girl and some other dickhead gets the job, you're gonna be coming home complaining non-stop.
01:15:35.729 --> 01:15:38.689
And I looked at it and I went, you know what, you're right.
01:15:39.090 --> 01:15:41.569
So I'll have a girl and just see what happens.
01:15:41.809 --> 01:15:43.409
And the rest is history.
01:15:43.569 --> 01:15:45.090
I I won the position.
01:15:45.329 --> 01:15:50.050
I I think I was perhaps back then the youngest superintendent in the state.
01:15:50.369 --> 01:15:51.010
How old are you?
01:15:51.890 --> 01:15:52.130
Back then?
01:15:52.210 --> 01:15:52.609
Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.
01:15:52.689 --> 01:15:53.250
I think I did now.
01:15:53.489 --> 01:15:54.529
I think I was 36.
01:15:54.689 --> 01:15:55.010
Yep.
01:15:55.250 --> 01:15:56.369
Something like that, or 36.
01:15:57.649 --> 01:15:57.970
Yeah.
01:15:58.130 --> 01:16:03.090
Yeah, and to be our commands back then were level ones through to level three.
01:16:03.329 --> 01:16:11.809
So a level three, for example, may be muscle brought, and it was based upon, you know, less less people to lead and manage.
01:16:11.970 --> 01:16:15.170
Um, crime was a lot less than other locations.
01:16:15.329 --> 01:16:16.609
Tugra Lakes was a level one.
01:16:16.930 --> 01:16:17.329
Busy.
01:16:17.489 --> 01:16:18.529
It was busy.
01:16:18.769 --> 01:16:24.130
And so I'm I've got no skill at at leading men and women at at that level.
01:16:24.289 --> 01:16:26.449
Um, and I win Tugra Lakes.
01:16:27.090 --> 01:16:34.210
And I I was you know, I was just so proud to be the boss of the men and women who were were down at Tugra Lakes.
01:16:34.289 --> 01:16:35.649
They were fantastic people.
01:16:35.809 --> 01:16:37.010
Um, I did my best.
01:16:37.329 --> 01:16:39.170
How many cops under you at that stage?
01:16:39.809 --> 01:16:41.409
Oh jeez.
01:16:43.409 --> 01:16:46.449
I think I think roughly around 200.
01:16:46.689 --> 01:16:47.329
Wow.
01:16:48.050 --> 01:16:49.489
Yeah, I I could be wrong.
01:16:49.649 --> 01:16:54.289
It's it's so long, but but it was a busy it was a busy location.
01:16:54.609 --> 01:16:59.649
Do you feel the change of attitude towards you from cops?
01:17:00.289 --> 01:17:02.369
Again, I've now you're the big big dog.
01:17:02.609 --> 01:17:06.529
Yeah, I I think I I personally I didn't.
01:17:06.689 --> 01:17:07.170
Yeah.
01:17:07.409 --> 01:17:09.170
Um becomes a boss.
01:17:10.369 --> 01:17:11.809
Because I make it look like you're working.
01:17:11.970 --> 01:17:15.970
Well, so I always had this philosophy, and I mentioned to you off air about this.
01:17:16.609 --> 01:17:22.130
When I used to come to work, one of the things I was a great believer in is I'd walk the floor.
01:17:22.369 --> 01:17:35.010
I'd want to see the night shift or the morning shift and just see how the the boys and girls were, you know, what were they up to, what what the shift had been like, um, just have you know five minutes chat.
01:17:35.409 --> 01:17:46.130
Um a lot of times, you know, if someone was struggling, um, you know, I'd take that back and then try and work out with my senior staff what we could do for that individual and and look after them.
01:17:46.369 --> 01:17:52.210
But it was what you know, walking the floor was always something that I was a great believer in.
01:17:52.369 --> 01:17:57.489
And I never stopped from when I became, you know, from the crime manager to then becoming the commander.
01:17:57.649 --> 01:18:03.890
What made it difficult was at that stage, um, in in the initial days, we were up at Turkley.
01:18:04.210 --> 01:18:06.289
So the the place was fragmented.
01:18:06.449 --> 01:18:13.170
We had a a little station at Turkley, we had a little station at at uh Wyong, and then the entrance.
01:18:13.409 --> 01:18:16.689
Um until such time as then we got a demotable, you know.
01:18:16.849 --> 01:18:25.649
Lucky us, we got a two-story demotable at the entrance, which at least gave me the opportunity to see more of my staff on a more regular basis.
01:18:26.289 --> 01:18:34.689
Um but yeah, so Tug uh Tugra Lakes was and it always has been one of my favourite times in in policing.
01:18:35.010 --> 01:18:37.409
Is this when your media career starts as well?
01:18:37.729 --> 01:18:39.729
Uh yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
01:18:40.369 --> 01:18:41.090
How'd you go with that?
01:18:41.170 --> 01:18:46.130
You know, get in front of the camera, speaking to the people, yeah, look, getting grilled by channel nine.
01:18:46.289 --> 01:18:46.930
Yeah.
01:18:47.649 --> 01:18:57.170
You know, I I think back then, um, because it was more regional media, it was more covered by NBN, uh, they were they were pretty friendly.
01:18:57.409 --> 01:19:05.649
So, you know, you'd have a bit of a a chat about off-air before, you know, what what what sort of story are they after, you know, what were the what were they seeking?
01:19:05.970 --> 01:19:11.090
So um it was pretty, you know, pretty good to work with NBN reporters.
01:19:11.329 --> 01:19:18.210
Um but I'll get into the reporting when I came to Sydney and and and the media in Sydney there they were just assholes.
01:19:18.529 --> 01:19:20.609
Being at that top level, did you ever rip out to jobs?
01:19:20.689 --> 01:19:24.449
So if you heard a you know a big job going on, you'd jump in your car and zip out there?
01:19:24.689 --> 01:19:25.489
Yep, all the time.
01:19:25.809 --> 01:19:26.689
Pistol on.
01:19:27.569 --> 01:19:28.050
Yeah.
01:19:28.529 --> 01:19:37.170
Well, I was I was a former negotiator, so um we never carried pistols back then, and you know, the the Glock, we wouldn't carry a Glock if we were negotiating.
01:19:37.409 --> 01:19:43.489
Or even as a detective, I'd you know, half the time I'd you'd roar out to jobs and you didn't have a gun on you.
01:19:43.890 --> 01:19:47.489
Um because you'd you'd you'd wear an ankle holster or or something.
01:19:47.970 --> 01:19:56.130
Like the men the the boys and girls now, you know, quite often you'll see them, or they always do, they have their their guns on their belt because that's the change of time as well.
01:19:56.609 --> 01:20:08.130
You know, it it it they've got to be so vigilant, like you there's so many guns out there, that's it, and so many people dealing with mental health and and so forth, you don't know who's gonna try and shoot you or stab you at any given time.
01:20:08.289 --> 01:20:16.930
Where I was lucky, you know, really, um you could still roar around with confidence that no one was gonna try and shoot you or stab you.
01:20:17.090 --> 01:20:18.689
A little pea shooter on your ankle, yeah.
01:20:18.849 --> 01:20:28.849
But look, in in terms of, you know, if there was a serious job on, um particularly where there was, you know, a child killed or whatever, yep, get out to the to the jobs.
01:20:29.010 --> 01:20:35.569
When I was at Gosford, because I they moved me from Tugra Lakes to Brisbane Water, Gosford.
01:20:36.050 --> 01:20:39.890
Um, and this was one of the toughest things I'd ever done in my career.
01:20:40.050 --> 01:20:43.890
I had one of my officers, Peter Gordon, uh, who was killed up on the F3.
01:20:44.130 --> 01:20:46.849
He was a highway patrol officer working from Gosford.
01:20:47.170 --> 01:20:53.649
And him and his his offsider were working uh radar up on the F3 northbound.
01:20:54.050 --> 01:21:09.809
And they were doing the the radar work and they they tried to stop a car speeding anyway, pure accident, but one car was driving too fast itself and hit a hit another car, then veered off and collected Gordy.
01:21:10.130 --> 01:21:19.010
And uh, you know, they they rang me um straight away, of course, and and I flew down to the uh to the central coast as quick as I could to the scene.
01:21:19.090 --> 01:21:21.409
He'd been taken to hospital at that stage.
01:21:21.890 --> 01:21:54.369
Um but dealing with his offsider uh who was just distraught, um, then getting down to to the hospital and you know, seeing seeing a police officer with you know tubes and and different things still in his uniform um and passing, he he passed away unfortunately, um was mu one of the most difficult things I'd I'd dealt with as a police officer, and then looking after the staff, you know, the the the staff were were so important because he was you know we're all close.
01:21:54.849 --> 01:22:06.529
Um so Gordy, uh a a tragic situation, and I'd you know I'd I'd only moved him at at one stage there from highway patrol into general duty just for a rotation.
01:22:06.849 --> 01:22:08.289
That's what he wanted.
01:22:08.449 --> 01:22:21.010
Um and he was just a very polite, respectful, professional police officer to lose your life, you know, working radar, you know, who who would come to work thinking that's that's where it's all going to end.
01:22:21.250 --> 01:22:21.569
Yeah.
01:22:21.729 --> 01:22:33.729
But yeah, that was Do you do you feel partly not responsible, but because you're the commander, you you there's one of your troops under your do you change processes or policies and procedures down the track?
01:22:33.890 --> 01:22:35.409
Is is that something you look into?
01:22:35.729 --> 01:22:39.090
Uh look, there was a huge work cover uh investigation.
01:22:39.569 --> 01:22:49.890
Um and I must say that the investigation like it was one of the the most difficult things that I that I'd I'd sat through and answered questions.
01:22:50.369 --> 01:23:00.289
Um really sort of turned my guts the way work cover back then operated the inspector who was current conducting himself with the investigation.
01:23:01.329 --> 01:23:03.970
Um But it was a it was an accident.
01:23:04.130 --> 01:23:10.769
You know, the the officers could they have you know undertaken radar duties differently?
01:23:11.329 --> 01:23:17.489
Benefit of hindsight, you could probably say, look, they they could have, but the bottom line was it was an accident.
01:23:18.130 --> 01:23:27.649
And the boys were trying to do, you know, a professional job and and and save the lives of other people on the freeway, you know, the amount of speed and and different things that occurred on the M1.
01:23:28.449 --> 01:23:35.489
And you know, probably what I turned my mind to for weeks after was just looking after the rank and file.
01:23:35.649 --> 01:23:39.970
Because they'd already lost another officer before my time at Gosford.
01:23:40.050 --> 01:23:48.689
Um again, highway patrol officer who lost control of his vehicle in a I think it might have been a pursuit, but yeah, lost control and hit a telegraph pole.
01:23:49.970 --> 01:23:54.849
So yeah, there's there's danger at every uh at every bend.
01:23:55.329 --> 01:23:55.729
Of course.
01:23:55.809 --> 01:24:05.809
And did you have any officers under your command that got injured during the you know, maybe maybe stabbed or shot or uh anything of the likes?
01:24:05.970 --> 01:24:08.849
I'm sure a lot of cops had bumps and bruises.
01:24:09.170 --> 01:24:12.289
Oh look, there was plenty of plenty of bumps and bruises.
01:24:12.689 --> 01:24:13.729
No two ways about it.
01:24:13.890 --> 01:24:16.609
I don't think I had anyone shot.
01:24:17.250 --> 01:24:18.529
I'm just trying to think.
01:24:19.489 --> 01:24:21.970
Because it would it'd stick with me if if I did.
01:24:22.369 --> 01:24:24.529
But no, no, thank goodness.
01:24:25.090 --> 01:24:40.849
Um a lot of officers that that that you know, thank goodness there was a fine line between uh total disaster and and walking away, you know, being able to go home, you know, safely and and to their loved ones.
01:24:41.250 --> 01:24:47.489
Um so thank thank God, you know, there wasn't too many of those those incidents.
01:24:47.890 --> 01:24:55.170
Uh just quickly, any any time over your career you had to pull out your pistol and bad boys, uh bad boys for life.
01:24:55.489 --> 01:24:57.170
Thankfully only a a couple of times.
01:24:57.329 --> 01:25:03.729
As a negotiator, you know, one of the one of the incidents we went to was a um it was a domestic.
01:25:03.970 --> 01:25:12.289
It was uh a female who held a male at knife point, she had a huge carving knife, probably like a 20 centimetre blade carving knife.
01:25:12.529 --> 01:25:14.689
And so we were negotiating with her.
01:25:15.010 --> 01:25:19.170
Old mate was on the lounge and he was pissed as a as a newt.
01:25:19.409 --> 01:25:24.210
Um the best you'd get out of him was you know a half a mumble.
01:25:24.609 --> 01:25:28.210
Um so he was inebriated quite quite heavily.
01:25:28.369 --> 01:25:36.769
She was also, you know, alcohol affected and trying to negotiate with her by my mate, he was the primary negotiator, I was the the secondary.
01:25:37.649 --> 01:25:39.569
Um she was very difficult.
01:25:39.729 --> 01:25:46.289
She'd, you know, highs and lows from being quite severely agitated to sort of being quite calm.
01:25:47.170 --> 01:25:51.970
And you know, it was it was going backwards, the negotiations.
01:25:52.769 --> 01:26:01.010
And I always remember turning around to one of the detectives who was there and I said, Can someone just lend me their gun?
01:26:01.329 --> 01:26:04.130
Because I think this is gonna turn bad.
01:26:04.609 --> 01:26:12.849
Anyway, this uh this detective he was ex-Vietnam, he said, No, Max, he said, if you need someone shot, just let me know and I'll I'll do it.
01:26:13.090 --> 01:26:13.809
Not his first time.
01:26:14.050 --> 01:26:15.170
Not his first time.
01:26:16.369 --> 01:26:20.050
Anyway, old mate, you know, he's laying possum on the lounge.
01:26:20.210 --> 01:26:24.050
Old mate jumps up and he goes, Well, if you're gonna fucking stab me, have a go.
01:26:24.369 --> 01:26:25.809
And of course she does.
01:26:26.050 --> 01:26:35.569
So she rips the carving knife right up his his middle, and with that Vince races in and and shoots the female.
01:26:35.729 --> 01:26:36.769
And I thought she was dead.
01:26:36.930 --> 01:26:45.729
The bullet wound, it was a clear shot right into her side around her breast, and she was flung back into the kitchen of the unit.
01:26:46.289 --> 01:26:50.130
Paramedics flew up, um, everything was dealt with.
01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:57.170
Old mate, he uh he his heart was nicked by the carving knife, the the plunge of the knife into him.
01:26:57.489 --> 01:27:02.449
He lived to tell tell uh a story a different day, and she lived.
01:27:02.609 --> 01:27:16.689
So the bullet, because it was a Smith and Weston, had hit the rib cage and tracked around the breastbone to the you know the cleavage in between her breasts, and that's where they removed it, and she she lived to tell the story.
01:27:17.010 --> 01:27:17.409
Yeah, right.
01:27:17.809 --> 01:27:18.689
Unbelievable.
01:27:18.849 --> 01:27:21.409
Wow, cock raachers, mate.
01:27:21.489 --> 01:27:22.609
Yeah, that's it, mate.
01:27:22.689 --> 01:27:23.970
That's it's wild, isn't it?
01:27:24.050 --> 01:27:25.010
It's wild.
01:27:25.329 --> 01:27:28.689
Um the old Vietnam veteran.
01:27:28.849 --> 01:27:30.210
He's a god, mate.
01:27:30.289 --> 01:27:32.289
Uh guy loving this a few times.
01:27:32.609 --> 01:27:34.130
Yeah, he's he's passed on now.
01:27:34.369 --> 01:27:34.689
Has he?
01:27:35.170 --> 01:27:36.050
Yeah, rest in peace, mate.
01:27:36.369 --> 01:27:37.090
Rest his soul.
01:27:37.329 --> 01:27:37.890
Yeah, right.
01:27:37.970 --> 01:27:39.409
So now you're all the big dog.
01:27:39.569 --> 01:27:40.689
Walk around the station.
01:27:40.769 --> 01:27:44.769
It's really good again hearing that you go around and check in with you guys.
01:27:44.930 --> 01:27:49.890
And obviously, you've had this incident with uh the highway guy losing his life.
01:27:50.369 --> 01:27:52.050
What is the go from here?
01:27:52.210 --> 01:27:56.050
This is now you're coming up to 20 years, you are 20 years in the job.
01:27:56.130 --> 01:27:57.970
Yeah, it's a long stint already.
01:27:58.449 --> 01:28:00.529
Surely, uh what are you thinking?
01:28:00.689 --> 01:28:01.489
What's happening now?
01:28:01.569 --> 01:28:04.050
You're going, you know, I've I've hit that next level up.
01:28:04.130 --> 01:28:05.649
Now I'm the boss of this this area.
01:28:05.729 --> 01:28:06.369
What's next?
01:28:06.609 --> 01:28:09.250
Yeah, I I probably got to the crossroads a little bit.
01:28:09.329 --> 01:28:15.970
Well, you know, I was um you know, I was going through a a separation with my first wife.
01:28:16.289 --> 01:28:19.090
Um, so things were were pretty difficult.
01:28:19.569 --> 01:28:21.729
Um, but it was still amicable.
01:28:21.809 --> 01:28:23.890
I was very fortunate with my my first wife.
01:28:23.970 --> 01:28:25.809
She was, you know, we just grew apart.
01:28:25.890 --> 01:28:26.689
It's as simple as that.
01:28:28.050 --> 01:28:28.369
Two kids.
01:28:28.689 --> 01:28:29.649
Yeah, two two daughters.
01:28:29.890 --> 01:28:32.289
She was a good mother, still is a great mother to them.
01:28:32.369 --> 01:28:35.250
So, you know, she was a good she she is a good woman.
01:28:35.489 --> 01:28:41.489
Um but I personally I was sort of you know on my own, sort of, you know, which way am I going here?
01:28:42.369 --> 01:28:51.170
And uh there was an advertisement for assistant commissioner, professional standards of all places, and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna have a go at this.
01:28:51.569 --> 01:28:54.769
And so I threw my hat in the ring, I was interviewed.
01:28:55.010 --> 01:28:59.890
Um, and that's that's a funny story about about the interview, and I'll I'll come back to that.
01:29:00.050 --> 01:29:02.849
But anyway, I was interviewed, I missed out on the job.
01:29:03.090 --> 01:29:17.569
Um, and the deputy commissioner at the time was Blake called Dave Owens, and he rang me and he said, Look, um, we don't really know much about you because I'd been up, you know, around Newcastle on Central Coast at that stage for most of my career.
01:29:17.649 --> 01:29:19.489
We we don't know too much about you.
01:29:19.649 --> 01:29:36.609
We want to bring you to Sydney and to do a restructure of the Commissioners, what was then called the Commissioners Inspectorate, or or um it I'm just trying to think of the the new name it was given, planning, planning something planning performance branch.
01:29:37.090 --> 01:29:38.609
Performance improvement and planning command.
01:29:38.849 --> 01:29:39.090
Yeah.
01:29:39.329 --> 01:29:44.050
And I went, okay, I've never been in the corporate side of I've always been an operational coach.
01:29:46.449 --> 01:29:50.449
But I'll I'll just go back to The interview for the professional standards.
01:29:50.609 --> 01:29:59.090
So on the day I'm living with my mate at Lambton, and my mate in Sydney rings me and he said, You've got your interview today, haven't you?
01:29:59.170 --> 01:30:00.210
This is my best mate.
01:30:00.369 --> 01:30:02.369
And uh I said, Yes, yeah, yeah, why?
01:30:02.689 --> 01:30:08.369
He said, There's been a really bad truck accident on the M1, it's closed because the trucks are on fire, blah, blah, blah.
01:30:08.609 --> 01:30:09.729
I went, Yeah.
01:30:10.529 --> 01:30:11.729
What am I gonna do?
01:30:11.970 --> 01:30:14.130
And he was in charge of the water police.
01:30:14.369 --> 01:30:18.449
So he said, Can you get to Wai Woi, down your minor?
01:30:19.090 --> 01:30:34.369
And he said, I'll pick you, I'll have a launch there for you to pick you up, and we'll get the launch, the small launch, to shoot you out to the ocean, and we'll I'll come up in one of the big launches and pick you up from there.
01:30:34.529 --> 01:30:36.289
I'm going, Can you do this?
01:30:36.449 --> 01:30:37.809
And he went, Yeah, yeah.
01:30:38.130 --> 01:30:39.729
It's it's all cool.
01:30:40.050 --> 01:30:42.369
So here I go down to Waiway.
01:30:42.609 --> 01:30:51.409
So I drive down there, I'm in a suit, and I've got my briefcase, and anyway, these young kids are jumping off the jetty, and they go, check out this blake.
01:30:51.649 --> 01:30:53.170
He looks like a drug dealer.
01:30:53.409 --> 01:30:55.649
He looks like he's James Bond or something.
01:30:55.890 --> 01:31:02.289
And I and so I've I've got the chuckles going, you know, having a bit of a laugh, and and uh with the with the kids jumping off this jetty.
01:31:02.449 --> 01:31:07.970
Anyway, this small police launch picks me up and off we go out out to the ocean seas.
01:31:08.289 --> 01:31:11.090
And thank thank God it was pretty calm.
01:31:11.329 --> 01:31:13.329
Wasn't uh wasn't a big swell.
01:31:13.649 --> 01:31:31.729
And we start zipping down that the coastline towards Sydney, and my mate comes up in the in the big launch, so I jump out in the middle of the ocean, I jump from from the small launch to the large launch, and then they they turn about and head for uh for Sydney Harbour at full speed.
01:31:31.970 --> 01:31:35.010
And so that's how I got down to the interview.
01:31:35.329 --> 01:31:42.849
And when when I got Dave Owens and one of the other ladies sitting on the panel, they said, How did you get down here by chance?
01:31:43.010 --> 01:31:48.289
So I told them the story, and they said, Oh god, we should give you the job just because for your innovation.
01:31:48.609 --> 01:31:49.090
Yeah.
01:31:49.329 --> 01:31:50.529
Yeah, it was a funny one that.
01:31:50.689 --> 01:31:51.809
It's not what you know, it's how you know.
01:31:51.970 --> 01:31:52.930
Yeah, that's right.
01:31:53.170 --> 01:31:55.409
So thank good to thank goodness to my mate.
01:31:55.489 --> 01:32:01.250
But anyway, um, yeah, because they, you know, they said, Look, we were impressed, but we didn't know you.
01:32:01.329 --> 01:32:05.329
Um, we want you to come down to Sydney to the performance improvement planning branch.
01:32:05.489 --> 01:32:14.369
Um, you've got eight months to do um a whole rebuild of what was it used to be called um what was it?
01:32:15.729 --> 01:32:21.489
Uh uh Operational Crime Review, OCR, I think it was it was called.
01:32:21.729 --> 01:32:25.250
So Peter Ryan brought this in where they'd drill the commanders.
01:32:25.409 --> 01:32:36.210
And you've probably seen it on on cop shows like in New York, New York was Bill Bratton was the the godfather of of creating um, I think, um, the OCR system.
01:32:36.529 --> 01:32:45.809
So they'd hold um their commanders accountable for crime and so forth, what what was occurring in their local areas and what are you doing about it.
01:32:45.890 --> 01:32:55.809
And if their performance wasn't up to speed, back then, like my commander who I remember going down to one of those OCRs, and he was sweating.
01:32:55.890 --> 01:32:57.890
He was just a lather of sweat, the poor bugger.
01:32:57.970 --> 01:33:13.010
He was just a nervous wreck because Peter Ryan would get about them and and really sort of you know threaten them with, well, you know, either performance improves or your time in the cops are you know coming to a to an end.
01:33:13.170 --> 01:33:15.890
So it was it was pretty rugged stuff back then.
01:33:16.289 --> 01:33:29.489
So I was brought to Sydney to do a restructure of of that system, um, at the same time restructure like performance and accountability within the the New South Wales police.
01:33:29.809 --> 01:33:36.050
So I set about with the team there, and it was like I said, it was funny because I'd never worked in corporate before.
01:33:36.289 --> 01:34:00.050
Um I thought, you know what, I'm an operational cop, but I I totally understand and get where where the executive were coming from by putting me there, because at the time the New South Wales government had created this New South Wales state plan and some of the facts and figures and data requirements, and this squad at the well, I wouldn't call them a squad, they were a unit.
01:34:00.369 --> 01:34:15.970
The work that they were doing was going to require just breams of time and paper by local commands, you know, doing nothing but reporting back to Sydney for politics in regards to crime trends and what was occurring and so forth.
01:34:16.050 --> 01:34:17.409
It was just out of control.
01:34:17.569 --> 01:34:18.930
You talk about bureaucracy.
01:34:19.090 --> 01:34:19.409
Yeah.
01:34:19.569 --> 01:34:22.369
It was it potentially was out of control.
01:34:23.329 --> 01:34:35.890
And so at that time, we worked, my mate and I worked heavily on really minimizing the impact on the operational cops as best we possibly could.
01:34:36.449 --> 01:34:44.210
Um, by at the same time providing to the commissioner's uh executive the requirements of government.
01:34:44.529 --> 01:34:53.890
So so we did a lot of work in in regards to restructuring, and um that was that was all completed.
01:34:53.970 --> 01:34:58.689
Um that still stands to this day in some way, shape, or or form.
01:34:59.489 --> 01:35:15.329
Um and then from there I was sent back to Newcastle by the commissioner's team to do a restructure of Newcastle and Warata Local Airy Commands in a combination and become a basically a super command.
01:35:15.569 --> 01:35:25.729
And and so I was given that responsibility of being the first one in the state, creating that, and uh and seeing how everything went, which was terrific, you know.
01:35:26.050 --> 01:35:30.609
So you come back up to Newcastle and pretty much change the structure, yeah, the way the policing was done up here.
01:35:30.930 --> 01:35:31.890
Yeah, yep.
01:35:32.130 --> 01:35:32.769
Yep.
01:35:33.010 --> 01:35:37.569
And it was, you know, it was it was look, it it was it was tough work.
01:35:37.970 --> 01:35:40.289
What type sorry, what type of changes were made?
01:35:40.609 --> 01:35:46.930
Well, you know, if you had you had back then you had Newcastle and Waratah being two separate commands.
01:35:48.050 --> 01:35:55.329
So what occurred was we had to restructure, have one command structure, and it would be Newcastle City.
01:35:55.569 --> 01:36:02.449
So it it it basically took in Waratah policing and it became Newcastle City command.
01:36:02.769 --> 01:36:18.769
Um with with that restructure, there was also a number of human uh position savings, and so they were sent up to Port Port Stevens at the time, and so we cre the later on there was a a new command created up at Port Stevens.
01:36:19.329 --> 01:36:31.489
So it's just simplifying it was simplifying, but at the same time, one one of the toughest things you'll ever do in policing is change a structure that has been ingrained in our police for years.
01:36:31.729 --> 01:36:33.729
Of course, you know, it it's so difficult.
01:36:33.970 --> 01:36:35.970
I I don't know whether you find that in the military.
01:36:36.609 --> 01:36:37.329
Of course, yeah, mate.
01:36:37.409 --> 01:36:38.449
People people get stuck in their ways.
01:36:38.769 --> 01:36:40.529
They do, especially the older, yeah.
01:36:40.930 --> 01:36:56.449
So um so there was a lot of work undertaken to to try and create a command structure that supported uh the rank and file, that gave them good leadership and and good management.
01:36:56.769 --> 01:37:17.170
Um and look, uh by the time I had sort of finished uh not not much so much finished the work, but I was there for uh a good couple of years, so I was able to to put the the a lot in place, um, which was which was good to see.
01:37:17.329 --> 01:37:20.930
Um there was a lot of positives, there was still some negativity.
01:37:21.329 --> 01:37:27.569
Um you know, like you know you'd find police didn't want to work at Newcastle or they didn't want to work at Warrata.
01:37:28.130 --> 01:37:31.890
It's funny, like geographically, what what is it, about 10 minutes drive?
01:37:32.130 --> 01:37:33.489
Easily, yeah, 10-15 minutes.
01:37:33.729 --> 01:37:38.289
But but yes, police again, they they they love their teams.
01:37:38.449 --> 01:37:45.489
You know, if you get you know, you you you've you if you are working on a good team, the last thing they want to do is give up that team.
01:37:45.569 --> 01:37:48.130
And I I don't blame them, you know, I I get that.
01:37:48.769 --> 01:37:57.329
But at the same time, we we needed to sort of change the environment a little bit, you know, freshen people up by giving them an experience, whether it was Newcastle or Warata.
01:37:58.449 --> 01:38:01.809
Um, so that was that was work in progress.
01:38:01.970 --> 01:38:19.250
Um but what happened from there, I was and this is probably one of the the finest hours which I was really proud of was the um the work I was uh um seconded to with a with a number of staff to go over to New Zealand and respond to the Christchurch earthquake.
01:38:19.489 --> 01:38:29.809
So I'd been heavily sort of um involved in in emergency management, uh, you know, whether it was on the Central Coast, you know, fires, flooding, different things.
01:38:30.130 --> 01:38:37.409
Um back in my early days, I was running around as a detective um when we had the Newcastle earthquake.
01:38:37.649 --> 01:38:40.529
So I'd sort of lived through a little bit of that.
01:38:40.930 --> 01:38:52.849
But going over to Christchurch was with part of my team, I I could select a number of my senior officers was one of the best things that that I ever had the opportunity of undertaking.
01:38:53.090 --> 01:38:58.210
And and the work that was undertaken in in Christchurch was just fantastic.
01:38:58.369 --> 01:39:01.090
So it was roughly around 130 police.
01:39:01.489 --> 01:39:07.809
One of the the most um proudest moments was when when we arrived at Christchurch earthquake.
01:39:08.050 --> 01:39:17.649
So we're going through the arrival gates, and we've worked walked through the arrival gates, and there's cameras everywhere, and there's hundreds of people.
01:39:17.809 --> 01:39:27.649
And as soon as we walk through the gates, and we're all in uniform, the cheering, the applause that went up, and we were sort of looking, looking around, going, Who who's the rock star?
01:39:27.890 --> 01:39:30.369
Like, you know, is there someone here we haven't seen?
01:39:30.609 --> 01:39:37.729
It was for us, you know, responding uh to that to their you know emergency.
01:39:38.050 --> 01:39:47.890
And one of the greatest things by New South Wales Police was they were able to put us on the ground at Christchurch within 48 hours, which is unheard of.
01:39:47.970 --> 01:39:48.769
That's fantastic.
01:39:48.930 --> 01:39:52.609
So 130 police and forensic experts we took over.
01:39:52.689 --> 01:39:55.250
We well we also took over some paramedics with us.
01:39:55.569 --> 01:39:56.849
Is it rescue cops as well?
01:39:56.930 --> 01:39:58.449
Or is it they were already there?
01:39:58.769 --> 01:39:59.329
A bit of everything.
01:39:59.569 --> 01:40:00.130
Bit of everything.
01:40:00.289 --> 01:40:00.609
Yep.
01:40:00.769 --> 01:40:04.369
Um and w so what what is the what's what's the goal here?
01:40:04.609 --> 01:40:08.609
Well the goal was to support uh policing, you know, security.
01:40:08.930 --> 01:40:10.449
Because obviously they're extended at that point.
01:40:10.689 --> 01:40:11.809
Oh they were they were busted.
01:40:11.890 --> 01:40:11.970
Yeah.
01:40:12.130 --> 01:40:12.609
They were busted.
01:40:13.729 --> 01:40:14.289
No, no.
01:40:14.449 --> 01:40:30.050
I was met at the um uh at the airport by Howard Broad, who was the news the New Zealand police offic uh police commissioner at the time, and he asked me, he said, Max, he said, are you able to put your staff on the ground tonight?
01:40:30.529 --> 01:40:32.849
And most of us had been up since 4 a.m.
01:40:33.010 --> 01:40:36.609
in the morning by the time we got to Christchurch.
01:40:36.849 --> 01:40:44.609
Um, then we had to be inducted, we all became New Zealand police officers, so we had to follow you know some basic legislation.
01:40:44.769 --> 01:40:46.369
Um to get like sworn in.
01:40:46.529 --> 01:40:48.130
Yeah, and get sworn in.
01:40:48.449 --> 01:40:53.890
And so he asked me about that, I said, Look, can you just give me five minutes and I'll have an answer for you?
01:40:54.210 --> 01:41:10.130
And I turned around, went with my senior officers and and and spoke to a number of the the constables on the ground and said, Look, we've been asked to do this, and there wasn't a wasn't any pushback at all.
01:41:10.210 --> 01:41:12.689
They just said, boss, we'll we'll do what's needed.
01:41:12.930 --> 01:41:19.250
And so we had police, New South Wales police on the ground uh that night doing night work.
01:41:19.890 --> 01:41:22.130
Like yeah, like that, that's just huge.
01:41:22.449 --> 01:41:29.729
And I I n I have never worked with a greater bunch of of police than the ones that went to Christchurch with me.
01:41:30.050 --> 01:41:50.369
Um part of you know, the the aspects that I was so proud and what the men and women did, and this gives you a really good um idea of of how they were thinking, it was like when the military goes into a location and it's about hearts and minds, and that's what we did.
01:41:50.609 --> 01:41:57.329
The men and women went out into the suburbs, you know, places where like it was like a war zone, Christchurch.
01:41:57.489 --> 01:42:04.689
Um, the amount of damage, um, houses that had sunk into the ground, liquefaction that had come up and was still remnants of it.
01:42:04.849 --> 01:42:06.930
Ah, it was it was it was incredible.
01:42:07.649 --> 01:42:13.010
Um, and of course, at that stage, when we're on the ground, the rescue's still under underway.
01:42:13.250 --> 01:42:18.609
So they're still clearing uh the Canterbury television building that had collapsed.
01:42:19.250 --> 01:42:32.289
So the the boys and girls went out into the suburbs, um, connected with community, um, you know, supplied some of the kids, you know, a little like even just police wristbands and and different things, whatever they could dig up.
01:42:32.529 --> 01:42:33.170
Boost morale.
01:42:33.329 --> 01:42:34.849
They were boosting morale.
01:42:35.170 --> 01:42:47.489
Um, even a couple of families where the kids were doing it tough, and you know what, the the police put their hands in their pocket and bought them pushbikes, brand new pushbikes, and gave to this family.
01:42:47.569 --> 01:42:48.849
I'll I'll never forget that.
01:42:49.010 --> 01:42:53.569
But that's what the police, you know, what they were like over in in Christchurch.
01:42:53.729 --> 01:43:02.369
And I think that's the epitome of of how in general the majority of New South Wales police operate in their local communities.
01:43:02.609 --> 01:43:12.930
If people would only open their eyes and understand that the men and women are there to help them, not hurt harm them, they're trying to do their best.
01:43:13.090 --> 01:43:18.689
And that's to me, that example over in Christchurch was just the epitome of what policing was all about.
01:43:19.329 --> 01:43:20.930
How long did you guys spend there?
01:43:21.090 --> 01:43:22.050
Uh uh a month.
01:43:22.289 --> 01:43:22.689
A month.
01:43:22.849 --> 01:43:23.170
Yeah.
01:43:23.409 --> 01:43:23.890
Wow.
01:43:24.130 --> 01:43:24.849
Yeah, a month.
01:43:25.010 --> 01:43:28.689
And obviously you're in control of your 130 officers working with the New Zealand.
01:43:29.010 --> 01:43:29.569
Yeah, funny.
01:43:29.649 --> 01:43:34.369
I I almost came like the pseudo-Australian police commissioner, uh police commander.
01:43:34.609 --> 01:43:52.289
And and what happened there was on a daily basis, like myself and my equivalent, so at the at the time the AFP were they they followed us, they were on the ground, VicPole were on the ground, and I think it was Queensland back then, were on the ground, or might have been South Australia.
01:43:52.529 --> 01:43:54.609
So that they followed us.
01:43:54.930 --> 01:44:05.569
But on a daily basis, I would go into Christchurch Police Station, which was uh which was a probably about a 12 or 13-story police building, which was on a lean.
01:44:06.210 --> 01:44:11.250
And on the fourth floor, I think it was the fourth floor, we had it set up as a command centre.
01:44:11.729 --> 01:44:26.689
And you'd be sitting there, and I was I was sat next to a military, one of their military guys, um, and you'd the bottles of water that were sat on the table, as soon as they started to the water started to move, you went, oh shit, here comes another tremor.
01:44:26.849 --> 01:44:28.529
And the place would shake.
01:44:29.329 --> 01:44:30.369
It'd shake.
01:44:30.529 --> 01:44:34.849
Like just trying to hold your nerve was was unbelievable.
01:44:35.090 --> 01:44:39.649
On a building that's already leaning, it was already leaning, and the top part of it had collapsed.
01:44:39.890 --> 01:44:50.050
And like the I remember the the the military um commander, he looked at me and he said, I can't fucking believe what what we're doing in this building.
01:44:50.289 --> 01:44:52.930
And he was right, but that's what it was like.
01:44:53.409 --> 01:44:58.689
But we we generally did we did a lot of strategic planning for New Zealand.
01:44:58.849 --> 01:45:03.010
Um it was a really good learning experience from from my aspect too.
01:45:03.250 --> 01:45:16.609
Um and the learning experience that I got from that and I shared with the other senior police that were with me was the fact that I I think as New South Wales police were very action-oriented.
01:45:16.769 --> 01:45:22.529
You know, here's a problem, let's go, let's do, you know, let's plan our way through it and get it done, ASAP.
01:45:23.090 --> 01:45:27.010
New Zealand police were more sort of casual, laid back.
01:45:27.890 --> 01:45:35.569
And so, you know, I could have made the huge error of being bombastic with New Zealand police.
01:45:35.729 --> 01:45:40.769
And and I identified really early, hey, this is not how they operate.
01:45:40.930 --> 01:45:50.210
So I just took a step back and and supported, you know, their planning and operational activities and and different things with with our police.
01:45:50.449 --> 01:45:57.489
So we we did a lot of strategic planning with with military, like a 10-day, 10-month, 10-year plan.
01:45:57.970 --> 01:46:01.250
Um, at least because they had no plans when we hit the ground.
01:46:01.489 --> 01:46:03.729
It was just it was a mess.
01:46:04.210 --> 01:46:13.329
And they were uh, you know, to their credit, they they were busted because they had been up, you know, pretty well 48 hours, non, you know, without any sleep.
01:46:13.489 --> 01:46:18.369
Um some of the police had lost their houses, of course, um, and and family members.
01:46:18.529 --> 01:46:25.409
I think all in all, there was about 180 plus deceased out of that earthquake.
01:46:25.569 --> 01:46:25.890
Yep.
01:46:26.050 --> 01:46:27.569
So it was it was significant.
01:46:27.729 --> 01:46:30.210
There wasn't it wasn't a small earthquake, it was significant.
01:46:30.609 --> 01:46:39.890
Yeah, and I guess for yourself, you know, coming from the New South Wales police, you would have dealt with a lot of state emergency stuff here in in Australia, especially New New South Wales, floods, fires.
01:46:40.050 --> 01:46:44.369
Yeah, so you got you've got that emergency um management background.
01:46:44.689 --> 01:46:45.329
Yeah, yeah.
01:46:45.569 --> 01:46:58.930
But we operated the difference was as New South Wales police, we become the primary where over there it's their local government that's the primary, and the police are only a cell within that structure.
01:46:59.170 --> 01:46:59.489
Yep.
01:46:59.649 --> 01:47:07.569
Which I found at times was a bit frustrating because you were trying to push through plans or or get sign off through the government.
01:47:07.890 --> 01:47:14.130
And you're going, why are we answering to government dicks when politicians that got no idea?
01:47:14.449 --> 01:47:15.489
No, that's right.
01:47:16.210 --> 01:47:21.649
So it was it w uh uh without doubt, it was one of the best things I I did in my career.
01:47:21.890 --> 01:47:22.130
Yep.
01:47:22.289 --> 01:47:24.289
So you spent a month there and you get back.
01:47:24.609 --> 01:47:27.409
Um again, how are you going?
01:47:27.649 --> 01:47:33.090
Like this is now you're at the top, you've you've been exposed to a life of policing.
01:47:33.250 --> 01:47:37.250
Now this trip to New Zealand, surely, you know, a breakup in marriage.
01:47:37.409 --> 01:47:41.170
And are you travelling okay at the top there?
01:47:41.250 --> 01:47:50.609
Or yeah, look, I I I don't know whether I ever sort of gave myself time to to sort of sit back and and absorb all of that.
01:47:50.849 --> 01:47:53.250
It was like, all right, New Zealand's done.
01:47:53.409 --> 01:47:57.489
Um I'm back to uh to Newcastle.
01:47:57.569 --> 01:48:01.890
And I was just about to take up the Newcastle command again when Nick Caldus rang me.
01:48:02.050 --> 01:48:03.170
And he said, Where are you?
01:48:03.409 --> 01:48:05.729
I said, Well, matter of fact, I'm in Woolworths.
01:48:05.890 --> 01:48:06.210
Yeah.
01:48:06.609 --> 01:48:09.809
And he said, mate, he said, Don't worry about Newcastle.
01:48:09.890 --> 01:48:11.329
He said, I'm bringing you to Sydney.
01:48:11.569 --> 01:48:13.649
And what what uh rank was Nick at that stage?
01:48:13.809 --> 01:48:14.689
He was the deputy commissioner.
01:48:14.849 --> 01:48:16.289
He was the deputy commissioner, yeah.
01:48:16.449 --> 01:48:20.449
And he said, Look, I'm bringing you to Sydney, I need you to do some work for us.
01:48:20.689 --> 01:48:25.729
Um, it's been a government proposal that we design a new police transport command.
01:48:25.890 --> 01:48:30.849
And he said, I need you to come to Sydney and put this all together for us.
01:48:31.090 --> 01:48:34.689
It's a bit of a uh dog's breakfast at the moment.
01:48:35.010 --> 01:48:36.449
Um, blah, blah, blah.
01:48:36.609 --> 01:48:38.210
And I said, Yeah, fine.
01:48:38.449 --> 01:48:44.210
So I guess as being single, I I could just operate and pick up stumps and and off I went.
01:48:44.529 --> 01:48:47.489
So uh I I did that work.
01:48:47.890 --> 01:48:52.689
Um that took me, oh, what was it, about six months, eight months of of work.
01:48:53.970 --> 01:49:00.930
Um before the the position was advertised, and that's where they promoted me to assistant commissioner.
01:49:01.170 --> 01:49:02.930
So I was, you know, I was fortunate.
01:49:03.010 --> 01:49:11.729
You know, I always say to young cops and and people that I'm sort of mentoring, you have to understand with policing, it's about sliding door moments.
01:49:12.050 --> 01:49:16.769
You know, you can you can think, you know what, I've missed out on whatever it may be.
01:49:16.930 --> 01:49:25.250
Um, but just hang in there because somewhere the door will slide open and it's time, but you've got to make the decision to walk through the door.
01:49:25.890 --> 01:49:28.449
And so, you know, I was very fortunate.
01:49:28.529 --> 01:49:33.890
Um, I worked for Nick, I worked for Kath Byrne for a number of years.
01:49:34.050 --> 01:49:40.769
Um, look, Nick's Nick, you know, he's he is he should have been a police commissioner.
01:49:40.849 --> 01:49:42.529
There, there's no said that.
01:49:42.769 --> 01:49:43.569
Everyone has said that.
01:49:43.809 --> 01:49:59.010
Yeah, like he is polished, he's intelligent, um he's one of the best individuals that you'll you'll meet in in policing, um, and of course now out of the job, but he's also very support supported to the rank and file.
01:49:59.170 --> 01:50:01.489
He's very in tune with the rank and file.
01:50:01.890 --> 01:50:06.849
Um so it was it was an absolute pleasure working with Nick.
01:50:07.170 --> 01:50:08.930
Can't have that as commissioner.
01:50:10.529 --> 01:50:17.569
Um and I worked for Kath Byrne, and of course, you know, the history shows there was some rub between between them both.
01:50:17.809 --> 01:50:21.170
Um I tried to stay out of that as as best I could.
01:50:21.409 --> 01:50:21.729
God.
01:50:22.050 --> 01:50:26.369
But and but both had their their own abilities, you know what I mean?
01:50:26.529 --> 01:50:26.689
Yeah.
01:50:26.849 --> 01:50:31.329
Like Kath Byrne herself was was highly intelligent, uh a good person.
01:50:32.050 --> 01:50:36.210
Um she just didn't have the support of the rank and file like Nick did.
01:50:36.449 --> 01:50:43.090
But um, and of course the the politics within policing, between you know the the hierarchy at that time.
01:50:43.329 --> 01:50:50.050
Yeah, and for yourself, you you're missing the the frontline policing, getting out, chasing the grubs, and yeah, yeah.
01:50:50.130 --> 01:50:53.729
I I my mate tells a funny story.
01:50:53.970 --> 01:51:01.649
So this goes back when I was the commander of Tugra Lakes, and my mate, my best mate, was my crime manager.
01:51:02.369 --> 01:51:07.569
And I he comes into the office, and at that stage we'd had a spade of armed robberies.
01:51:07.729 --> 01:51:10.849
And I'm going, mate, what are my detectives doing?
01:51:11.090 --> 01:51:14.289
And we're like this, what are my detectives doing in regards to these armed robberies?
01:51:14.369 --> 01:51:16.289
They should have someone in the dock by now.
01:51:16.529 --> 01:51:18.210
And he goes, Well, you just relax.
01:51:18.289 --> 01:51:18.849
That's my job.
01:51:18.930 --> 01:51:20.130
You don't worry about it.
01:51:20.289 --> 01:51:22.769
And I go, No, I want I want results.
01:51:22.849 --> 01:51:23.649
I want results.
01:51:23.809 --> 01:51:30.050
And he said, Oh my God, you are so frustrated sitting behind this desk and not not out on the street yourself.
01:51:30.289 --> 01:51:31.970
And that's what that's what it was like.
01:51:32.130 --> 01:51:36.369
He lean across the table and kissed me on the forehead and said, relax, and he walked out of the office.
01:51:38.369 --> 01:51:41.649
So uh yeah, so that gives you a little bit of an insight.
01:51:41.729 --> 01:51:48.050
I was always sort of quite frustrated in terms of not getting out on the out on the street.
01:51:48.529 --> 01:51:53.010
But I also loved, you know, as a commander, I'd always work New Year's Eve.
01:51:53.090 --> 01:51:55.569
I'd always go out on the street with the men and women.
01:51:55.809 --> 01:51:59.569
Um I remember going to Gosford when I first arrived at Gosford.
01:51:59.729 --> 01:52:00.609
I got a phone call.
01:52:00.689 --> 01:52:03.329
There was a a stack of people that had gone off sick.
01:52:03.489 --> 01:52:05.569
So I said, It's okay, I'll come to work.
01:52:05.729 --> 01:52:07.489
And I went out and worked on the truck.
01:52:07.729 --> 01:52:08.449
Oh, did ya?
01:52:08.609 --> 01:52:08.849
Yeah.
01:52:09.090 --> 01:52:09.409
Yeah.
01:52:09.569 --> 01:52:10.130
Yeah.
01:52:10.449 --> 01:52:12.130
Because I just wanted to show them.
01:52:12.210 --> 01:52:13.250
I wasn't scared of that.
01:52:13.329 --> 01:52:15.329
And if I And you want a bit of action.
01:52:15.489 --> 01:52:15.729
Yeah.
01:52:15.890 --> 01:52:16.210
Yeah.
01:52:16.449 --> 01:52:16.689
Yeah.
01:52:16.930 --> 01:52:22.210
Look, you know, I I'm not trying to do the wrong thing by you people, but we need to support each other.
01:52:22.529 --> 01:52:27.010
And when you say you're back on the truck, are you next to a just a young young constable?
01:52:27.329 --> 01:52:27.489
Yeah.
01:52:27.649 --> 01:52:31.010
Obviously the young constable's going, fuck, who put me with the boss?
01:52:31.250 --> 01:52:32.449
I've been stitched up here.
01:52:32.689 --> 01:52:34.769
Well, I said, get your notebook out, constable.
01:52:34.930 --> 01:52:35.409
Yeah.
01:52:35.729 --> 01:52:37.890
I don't have a notebook these days.
01:52:38.449 --> 01:52:42.609
So um, yeah, I always remember that when I was when I was at Gosford.
01:52:43.010 --> 01:52:43.170
Yeah.
01:52:43.409 --> 01:52:49.010
But it was very much about showing that my my men and women had my full support.
01:52:49.170 --> 01:52:49.489
Yeah.
01:52:49.729 --> 01:52:53.729
And look, you know, did did some of them, you know, do a fur for you?
01:52:54.130 --> 01:52:55.170
Most likely.
01:52:55.409 --> 01:53:00.689
But hey, you know, you know, stuff happens and you just got to deal with it and move forward.
01:53:01.970 --> 01:53:05.890
Now, as we speak about now, you're starting to sit at that top rank.
01:53:06.529 --> 01:53:07.649
It's very political.
01:53:07.809 --> 01:53:11.010
There's I know it's the ivory tower, there's leather-bound books.
01:53:11.170 --> 01:53:13.970
Yeah, it's very prim and proper, silver spoons.
01:53:14.449 --> 01:53:15.649
What's happening up there, mate?
01:53:16.050 --> 01:53:22.289
Run me through this, because again, there are you know, a lot of younger officers are out there on the trucks listening, going, what do they do up there?
01:53:22.449 --> 01:53:24.130
Yeah, all they do is fuck us over.
01:53:24.369 --> 01:53:25.090
Yep, yep.
01:53:25.250 --> 01:53:30.130
Look, I there there's there's a number of things that that I could sort of chat about.
01:53:30.529 --> 01:53:41.250
So to start with, you know, when when I first went there and I had Nick as is a deputy um Catholic, they were very, very astute strategic thinkers.
01:53:41.890 --> 01:53:46.210
Um Andrew Scipioni is the he was the commissioner of the at the time.
01:53:46.369 --> 01:53:49.250
Um you didn't see a great deal of of Andrew.
01:53:49.809 --> 01:54:01.970
Um but you know, when you look at the role of police commissioner, I think he did a fantastic job in regards to standing up in front of the media when he was in the media a lot.
01:54:02.130 --> 01:54:04.050
He was in the media a lot, the way it should be.
01:54:04.289 --> 01:54:15.569
Yeah, and I think he ensured that there was a lot of confidence in policing at the time because he he dealt with the media and he dealt with he was seen when he should have been seen.
01:54:15.729 --> 01:54:17.569
Um that's my personal view.
01:54:17.729 --> 01:54:25.090
Um, and of course, Nick and Kath both, you know, handled the media, and Nick was just uh a jet at handling handling media.
01:54:25.250 --> 01:54:30.930
He probably had a lot number of them in his in his back pocket because he's married to one, yeah.
01:54:31.170 --> 01:54:54.130
But um, so you know, I was in a fast track of learning because as an assistant, you you you jump from an operational police commander to an executive member of the New South Wales police, and it's not like someone sort of uh goes, you know what, um let's drive around with you for the next six months and show you what is expected, um, etc.
01:54:54.369 --> 01:54:54.529
etc.
01:54:54.769 --> 01:54:54.930
No.
01:54:55.729 --> 01:54:56.289
Straight into the seat.
01:54:56.529 --> 01:54:58.529
They just throw you the keys and go, there you go.
01:54:58.689 --> 01:55:00.689
It's your car now, off you go.
01:55:01.250 --> 01:55:14.289
So I was dealing with not only the politics of policing, um, but I was dealing with the transport, um, state government transport side of the house.
01:55:14.930 --> 01:55:23.250
And back then, um, Gladys Barrow Checklian was the transport minister and Mike Gallagher was the police minister.
01:55:23.809 --> 01:55:38.210
And so I had to create the police transport command, which had all been signed off on by police and government in regards to what the structure was going to look at, but I had to deliver in regards to bodies on the ground, and that's where it became really difficult.
01:55:38.449 --> 01:55:47.250
So I had to get people released from local area commands uh into you know, for the purpose of policing the transport system.
01:55:47.489 --> 01:55:52.529
And of course, you know, there's always been difficulties in police numbers.
01:55:52.769 --> 01:56:01.170
So you'd get a lot of pushback from other assistant commissioners going, well, that's all well and good, but we can't release our people because we're already short-staffed.
01:56:01.409 --> 01:56:03.489
So there was a lot of that going on.
01:56:03.729 --> 01:56:10.369
Um, and at times I sort of felt like um, you know, the commissioner probably should have stepped in and gone, you know what?
01:56:10.849 --> 01:56:13.729
This isn't Max's problem, it's our problem.
01:56:14.449 --> 01:56:22.930
And we need to uh deliver this because it's a government pledge to the to our community of New South Wales.
01:56:23.489 --> 01:56:33.729
So um it would have been nice for him to have stepped in and and sort of probably undertaken his position and and told a few people what what was to take place.
01:56:34.050 --> 01:56:36.449
He didn't, um, and that's fine.
01:56:36.689 --> 01:56:49.489
So I had the the uh the great great job of of trying to negotiate um with other ACs for release of staff, which look we we got there in the end.
01:56:49.809 --> 01:56:57.250
Um but I was also reporting to Gladys and and Mike through Kath Byrne at the time.
01:56:57.970 --> 01:57:04.689
Um But you know, you talk about politics, and I think the best politician I ever came across was Gladys.
01:57:05.649 --> 01:57:14.609
Very intelligent woman, but what I what impressed me was she was so respectful of police and senior police, but police in general.
01:57:14.769 --> 01:57:17.569
She wanted to do the the best she possibly could.
01:57:18.050 --> 01:57:20.130
Um and she was astute.
01:57:20.529 --> 01:57:33.489
So the things that you would discuss, she'd she'd pick up pretty easily and and you know throw her her uh thoughts uh to you and and negotiate through different uh different periods of time.
01:57:34.130 --> 01:57:38.609
But we finally got the police uh transport command up and up and operating.
01:57:38.769 --> 01:58:00.769
And I my vision was that I really wanted to see see it being like a flying squad, that young cops again would attract young police, um, give them the opportunity of not being tied down to a specific location, but being able to uh be sent uh into areas of crime problem and solve it.
01:58:01.010 --> 01:58:02.449
You guys, there you go.
01:58:02.609 --> 01:58:05.729
Get in there, you're well equipped, you're well trained.
01:58:05.890 --> 01:58:19.729
We did a lot of training in regards to counterterrorism, because as you know, um, you know, the the likelihood and what we saw in overseas incidents, they will attack the transport system, whether it's trains, buses, etc.
01:58:20.210 --> 01:58:28.369
So we we we did a lot of education of our police in regards to emergency management, crisis management, you know, for for counterterrorism incidents.
01:58:28.609 --> 01:58:29.809
What year are we talking here?
01:58:30.050 --> 01:58:32.689
We're talking about 2012.
01:58:32.849 --> 01:58:34.050
So Lynn, yeah, the Linton.
01:58:34.210 --> 01:58:35.729
So the siege pre, yeah, pre-L.
01:58:36.050 --> 01:58:37.250
Yeah, so pre-Lynn.
01:58:37.890 --> 01:58:39.970
Um so we we lead into Lint.
01:58:40.609 --> 01:59:06.930
Um but and I also create had created for the command our own OSG because we're also the um basically the the overseers of people going to large events, um, whether it was out at Sydney Olympic Park, um in in Sydney itself, um, but whether it's soccer, football, um, other music events and and different things, yeah.
01:59:07.090 --> 01:59:08.769
You've got thousands upon thousands.
01:59:09.010 --> 01:59:16.050
Yep, New Year's Eve, thousands of people who use the particularly the rail network to get from point A to point B.
01:59:16.289 --> 01:59:41.970
And so, you know, bringing in OSG and having our own personnel trained as OSG operatives was was a huge benefit so they could deal with crowd management in particular, you know, make sure there's no crowd crush going through, you know, some narrow areas where you've got thousands of people either either trying to enter a uh an event or leaving.
01:59:42.529 --> 01:59:56.050
So so the whole vision of the police transport command was to work hand in glove also with the transport um uh transport, what what what do we call them?
01:59:56.210 --> 01:59:59.729
The Ministry of Transport anyway, let's just state that.
01:59:59.970 --> 02:00:03.569
Um, but we'd share share intelligence.
02:00:03.809 --> 02:00:17.010
Um we would look at doing a lot of joint work, particularly in identifying problems, whether it's pedophiles using the network, um, whether it was they were really big on graffiti.
02:00:17.090 --> 02:00:20.769
Graffiti is one of the things I I really hate seeing graffiti.
02:00:20.930 --> 02:00:26.849
I just it's beyond me to to understand why people graffiti tag things.
02:00:27.090 --> 02:00:29.170
But anyway, that's a whole separate issue.
02:00:29.329 --> 02:00:34.930
But yeah, we did a lot of work, really good work, I think, um, in creating the police transport command.
02:00:35.090 --> 02:00:44.130
But I wanted to see one of the the driving factors, I wanted it to be an exciting place, as exciting as I possibly could make it for the men and women.
02:00:45.010 --> 02:00:47.090
So every day was slightly different.
02:00:47.250 --> 02:00:58.609
You know, that's you can't do it exactly that way, but I always found that that cops are motivated when you're not doing the same thing day in, day out, week in, week out.
02:00:59.729 --> 02:01:00.289
Yeah, yep.
02:01:00.529 --> 02:01:03.970
That they get the opportunity to to do different things, yeah.
02:01:04.050 --> 02:01:04.289
Yep.
02:01:04.449 --> 02:01:13.409
Be developed, be educated in different areas, um, and just have you know different experiences and and raise their whole experience and skill level.
02:01:14.210 --> 02:01:26.289
Just quickly, uh, in regards to the rank structure, so you've got the commissioner, you've got the deputy commissioners, the assistant commissioners, how many in total are we, you know, how many in total are sitting around this, you know, the the knights around table?
02:01:26.529 --> 02:01:27.489
How many are there?
02:01:28.210 --> 02:01:35.809
Uh all up about twelve I think there's about there was about sixteen or seventeen assistant commissioners.
02:01:35.970 --> 02:01:36.210
Yep.
02:01:36.289 --> 02:01:38.210
And they all have their own separate Yes.
02:01:38.369 --> 02:01:42.130
Like obviously you're part of transport, there's the own, yeah.
02:01:42.289 --> 02:01:48.289
Yeah, you've got regional commanders, you know, state crime, um, highway patrol, blah, blah, blah.
02:01:48.769 --> 02:01:52.449
So all up, you know, people who are in charge of HR.
02:01:53.250 --> 02:01:55.329
Is it very in top is it top heavy?
02:01:55.489 --> 02:01:56.769
Do you feel it's top heavy?
02:01:57.170 --> 02:01:59.090
I I think there was a couple of positions that were created.
02:02:00.210 --> 02:02:03.569
Yeah, which I I think did we really need it?
02:02:03.809 --> 02:02:04.849
Sounds like the military, mate.
02:02:04.930 --> 02:02:06.210
Like we've got generals on generals.
02:02:06.449 --> 02:02:07.409
Generals for generals.
02:02:07.489 --> 02:02:07.649
Yeah.
02:02:07.890 --> 02:02:08.849
Like it's just madness.
02:02:09.090 --> 02:02:09.569
Yeah.
02:02:09.809 --> 02:02:14.289
Um so I I think that they they could have stripped it back a little bit.
02:02:14.449 --> 02:02:24.609
Um it it ebbs and flows a little bit because uh, you know, now you have an an assistant commissioner in charge of HR and education.
02:02:25.170 --> 02:02:36.769
Probably two of the biggest corporate you know, commands back then, because corporately there's a lot of political pressure over recruitment and retention and so forth.
02:02:37.329 --> 02:02:48.130
So to have one assistant commissioner in charge of those two areas, that's I don't know, that to me, that's that's a hell of a a workload for for one assistant commissioner.
02:02:48.369 --> 02:02:51.890
Um back when I was running around, you had two assistant commissioners.
02:02:51.970 --> 02:02:53.569
So it ebbs and flows a little bit.
02:02:53.649 --> 02:02:54.289
Yeah.
02:02:54.689 --> 02:03:06.369
Um but yeah, so and and look, um, if you worked in in field or specialist, so Nick would have a number of assistant commissioners under him, Kath would have a number under her.
02:03:07.170 --> 02:03:18.050
Um and so I would meet on a regular basis with Kath and her team, and we'd we'd discuss, you know, various aspects of of policing, strategic issues, a lot of politics.
02:03:18.289 --> 02:03:18.689
Yep.
02:03:18.849 --> 02:03:28.369
Um how how often would you would all the assistant commissioners, deputy commissioner, and the commissioner all be in one room and you get a dressing down from the commissioner?
02:03:28.769 --> 02:03:30.289
Probably once or twice a year.
02:03:30.529 --> 02:03:31.010
Yeah.
02:03:31.329 --> 02:03:34.529
Were they good dressing downs or always bad ones?
02:03:34.849 --> 02:03:38.769
No, well look at look Andrew was he he was pretty sort of relaxed.
02:03:38.849 --> 02:03:41.729
He was he was a very strategic thinker.
02:03:41.890 --> 02:03:47.729
Um he would leave a lot of that to like Nick and and Dave Hudson and Kath.
02:03:48.529 --> 02:03:51.170
Um and you wouldn't like a shit rolls downhill.
02:03:51.329 --> 02:03:52.449
Yeah, that's right.
02:03:52.689 --> 02:04:01.649
But you'd only come together as a full executive, you know, a couple of times a year, and would would head out to uh head out to Western Sydney.
02:04:02.050 --> 02:04:06.449
And where does the you know, I think one thing we spoke about offline, the police minister?
02:04:06.529 --> 02:04:08.449
You know, we've got a police minister now.
02:04:08.689 --> 02:04:09.970
She's dreadful.
02:04:10.529 --> 02:04:17.170
Like she she does nothing but get her face on the TV and make it feel like she's the king of shit.
02:04:17.250 --> 02:04:17.890
Yeah, yeah.
02:04:18.689 --> 02:04:23.170
What what was the police minister doing back then and how involved was the police minister?
02:04:23.409 --> 02:04:28.849
Because really all they should be doing is just signing paperwork and taking direction off the commissioner and deputies.
02:04:29.170 --> 02:04:32.130
Yeah, there's a few things there in my own personal view.
02:04:32.369 --> 02:04:39.569
Um so Mick Gallagher was our police minister, I think, when I when I first became an assistant commissioner.
02:04:39.809 --> 02:04:51.809
And and Mike, you you wouldn't see him, you'd only see him when there was a requirement on government to outline there was some restructuring going on or or something of that nature.
02:04:52.130 --> 02:05:02.609
But in terms of, and this is what frustrates me with today's police minister, I think Yasmin Catley far too often has too much to say on operational issues.
02:05:02.769 --> 02:05:14.689
Like we see her all the time on NBN News, and you go, oh my god, here she is again, talking about an operational issue that should be being delivered by a senior police officer.
02:05:14.930 --> 02:05:31.569
I I and I hate when I see a multi-agency um matter go down, and we've got a an ambulance, senior ambulance officer or a senior fiery talking about a policing issue, and you go, Oh my god, can we get a senior police officer to stand up, please?
02:05:31.970 --> 02:05:32.769
There's plenty of them.
02:05:33.170 --> 02:05:33.890
That's right.
02:05:34.130 --> 02:05:41.489
If you're not there, like hand in your positions and and we'll have more constables, thanks very much, on the on the ground.
02:05:41.729 --> 02:05:54.130
But but Yasmin, I think, in in terms of she oversteps significantly into the field of operational policing, and she has no right to do that, in my personal view.
02:05:54.449 --> 02:05:56.289
Wait, or she has absolutely no right.
02:05:56.689 --> 02:05:59.809
And if you had a light l a late library book, fair call.
02:05:59.970 --> 02:06:00.369
Yeah.
02:06:00.689 --> 02:06:02.130
But that's as far as you should go.
02:06:02.369 --> 02:06:02.529
No.
02:06:02.849 --> 02:06:03.409
You know what I mean?
02:06:03.489 --> 02:06:05.329
But like you said, it should be some assistant committee.
02:06:05.409 --> 02:06:07.729
There's you've got 17 of them, or 18, whatever.
02:06:07.890 --> 02:06:10.210
One of them should be standing up and going, you know what I'll take this.
02:06:10.289 --> 02:06:11.329
Yeah, this is my role here.
02:06:11.569 --> 02:06:17.729
And look, I I I feel for Mal Daniel, our current police minister, uh current police minister, commissioner.
02:06:17.970 --> 02:06:28.529
Mal's I I know Mal well, and he's a a fantastic individual, um, intelligent, you know, driven for you know getting the best results for the for the rank and file.
02:06:28.849 --> 02:06:35.170
But we don't see enough of Mal on the news speaking about, you know, operational issues.
02:06:35.329 --> 02:06:40.689
And I'm not quite sure whether some what happens is generally they can get hamstrung by the politicians.
02:06:40.930 --> 02:06:41.250
Of course.
02:06:41.489 --> 02:06:43.409
The premier, the police minister.
02:06:43.649 --> 02:06:45.090
Oh, she'd be like, oh no, I've got this.
02:06:45.250 --> 02:06:45.569
That's right.
02:06:45.729 --> 02:06:46.210
I've got this.
02:06:46.449 --> 02:06:46.930
That's right.
02:06:47.090 --> 02:06:56.769
Where I'm sure the majority of the generic general public would rather see Mel Lanyon stand up and one cop telling me about cop issues.
02:06:56.930 --> 02:06:59.010
And well, the cops on the ground would want to see their commissioner.
02:06:59.250 --> 02:07:00.050
Their boss talk about it.
02:07:00.210 --> 02:07:00.769
Yeah, exactly right.
02:07:01.010 --> 02:07:01.890
He's a champion bloke.
02:07:02.050 --> 02:07:02.210
Yeah.
02:07:02.289 --> 02:07:03.970
No, we yeah, I've I've heard, yeah.
02:07:04.210 --> 02:07:06.769
If I was if I was a constable on the ground, I want to see Mel.
02:07:06.849 --> 02:07:07.809
I don't want to see her.
02:07:08.210 --> 02:07:08.849
Not at all.
02:07:09.090 --> 02:07:14.769
If she's going to give us extra police or make some announcement about more police or whatever, that's when you want to see the police minister.
02:07:15.090 --> 02:07:15.729
It's your box.
02:07:15.970 --> 02:07:19.649
Or there's a restructure going on that that government's undertaking.
02:07:19.809 --> 02:07:20.769
That's your box.
02:07:20.930 --> 02:07:22.210
Otherwise, stay in your own way.
02:07:22.609 --> 02:07:25.489
Seems like she's taken that role as the boss.
02:07:25.729 --> 02:07:26.449
You know what I mean?
02:07:26.609 --> 02:07:27.489
To literally.
02:07:28.689 --> 02:07:36.369
But um, yeah, and look, you know, I I I can be sort of, you know, going around my own issues now, you know, being retired.
02:07:36.609 --> 02:07:43.649
But the amount of people that still want to talk about, oh Max, you know, what's what's the new police commissioner like?
02:07:43.970 --> 02:07:46.289
And I'll say he's he's very, very good.
02:07:46.769 --> 02:07:49.170
His heart and soul is for the rank and file.
02:07:49.409 --> 02:07:59.569
He's got a big he's got a big cruise ship to try and turn around because it was heading in the wrong direction from the previous police commissioner, in my personal view.
02:08:00.529 --> 02:08:04.289
So he he's got a big boat to to try and turn.
02:08:04.609 --> 02:08:11.250
Um whether he'll be able to to do a great deal in in his time frame, I guess only time will will tell.
02:08:11.569 --> 02:08:16.449
Um, but he is he's the right person for for the job at the moment, 100%.
02:08:17.649 --> 02:08:18.930
And he's well he's well liked.
02:08:19.010 --> 02:08:19.729
Like the rank and filed.
02:08:20.130 --> 02:08:21.010
Of course, yeah, they yeah.
02:08:21.170 --> 02:08:24.689
The rank and filed meet Mal will always speak highly of him.
02:08:24.930 --> 02:08:25.890
Loves a drink.
02:08:26.609 --> 02:08:28.050
I don't know about that.
02:08:28.609 --> 02:08:32.369
But yeah, no, he I think if I'm sure he's gonna be listening, mate.
02:08:32.529 --> 02:08:36.130
Time to get on the news, tell that Yasmin to sit back down.
02:08:36.210 --> 02:08:38.210
Just sit in the back row, love.
02:08:38.449 --> 02:08:45.970
Well, well, the bottom line is Mal, that the what he needs to hear is that the general community, not Max Mitchell, yeah, not Matty Morris.
02:08:46.050 --> 02:08:49.010
Yeah, the general community, they want to see their police commissioner.
02:08:49.250 --> 02:08:49.729
100%.
02:08:50.529 --> 02:08:51.010
100%.
02:08:51.489 --> 02:09:00.849
Or or if it's a local issue, an operational issue, they want to see their local police superintendent or a local police inspector speak up, and this is what's occurring.
02:09:01.010 --> 02:09:01.569
Yep.
02:09:01.809 --> 02:09:04.769
Especially yes, especially now these days, you know.
02:09:04.849 --> 02:09:10.130
We had those those kids riding the electric bikes a few weeks ago up here in Newcastle, went crazy.
02:09:10.289 --> 02:09:11.010
No one spoke about it.
02:09:11.090 --> 02:09:12.050
I think Yasmine did.
02:09:12.289 --> 02:09:12.689
Of course she did.
02:09:12.769 --> 02:09:13.329
Yeah, of course she did.
02:09:13.489 --> 02:09:14.050
But no one else did.
02:09:14.289 --> 02:09:19.809
I want I want to see the boss of Newcastle come and go, listen here, you little bastards.
02:09:20.130 --> 02:09:24.529
I swear to God, if my cops come across you and you're riding those bikes, we're just gonna destroy them.
02:09:24.609 --> 02:09:27.569
We're gonna take them off you, we're gonna throw them straight into the into the fire pit.
02:09:27.809 --> 02:09:29.729
Yeah, you talk about local issues, Maddie.
02:09:29.809 --> 02:09:36.210
Um, one of the guys that I I think does a terrific job with media, locally, that is, is Wayne Humphrey Bear.
02:09:36.369 --> 02:09:37.809
I'd know whether you come across the name.
02:09:38.050 --> 02:09:38.449
Yep, yep.
02:09:38.609 --> 02:09:40.689
But you see him on the news quite often.
02:09:40.849 --> 02:09:43.090
Uh Chad Gillies down at Tugwell Lakes.
02:09:43.170 --> 02:09:55.010
You know, you you've got a superintendent there who stands up, I think recently with with a murder investigation or there was some serious crime that had occurred, and he he stands up quite regularly, which is which is great to see.
02:09:55.250 --> 02:10:01.809
But I would encourage local superintendents to to really stand up because it's the one way of creating confidence.
02:10:02.529 --> 02:10:03.170
That's the big thing.
02:10:03.329 --> 02:10:04.130
That's the big thing, isn't it?
02:10:04.369 --> 02:10:07.970
With with policing and your community, that's the way to build confidence.
02:10:08.369 --> 02:10:10.849
And it gives confidence for your police officers as well.
02:10:11.090 --> 02:10:11.569
Oh, 100%.
02:10:11.890 --> 02:10:15.809
And I think like just you know, we'll get to this this, I guess the political side now, you know.
02:10:15.890 --> 02:10:17.010
Again, we spoke about it earlier.
02:10:17.090 --> 02:10:27.809
There's police officers going through issues where that kid's hit that, you know, that parked police car, he's been charged, been kicked out of the cops, and basically thrown to the pits, thrown to the wolves, I should say.
02:10:27.890 --> 02:10:42.769
And then, you know, there's multiple other scenarios where not a single single, you know, officer at the top has come out and defended, not even defended, but just throwing, hang on, guys, let's just get the full picture here before we start pointing fingers and letting the media do what the media do best.
02:10:42.849 --> 02:10:46.130
Oh no, blaming the police officer was his fault that that kid was killed.
02:10:46.769 --> 02:10:49.170
How about the kid riding around on a stolen motorbike?
02:10:49.409 --> 02:10:50.449
Yeah, that that's right.
02:10:50.529 --> 02:11:02.609
I look I don't know a great deal about that incident, um, but but certainly uh, you know, the judicial system has let down a police officer significantly.
02:11:03.489 --> 02:11:10.769
Um like it's just dreadful, you know, to to be questioned about oh, you should have foresaw what you know the consequences could have been.
02:11:10.930 --> 02:11:18.609
Like the the the the officer, from my understanding, was at least trying to get this young person to stop.
02:11:19.890 --> 02:11:20.849
That's his job, isn't it?
02:11:21.090 --> 02:11:21.649
That's his job.
02:11:21.890 --> 02:11:23.250
This kid has broken the law.
02:11:23.489 --> 02:11:25.489
Well how committed an offence.
02:11:25.729 --> 02:11:27.569
Yeah, well, just let them go.
02:11:27.890 --> 02:11:32.529
This is where police are on a lose-loose um predicament at times.
02:11:32.849 --> 02:11:41.569
So you let that pursuit continue on, and that kid goes around the corner and he runs down a mother pushing a pram with a young baby.
02:11:41.729 --> 02:11:52.289
Which has happened, which has happened, and he kills the you know, one of whether it's the mother or or the child or both, and then people are up in arms going, why didn't the police stop that?
02:11:52.529 --> 02:11:53.250
Exactly right.
02:11:53.489 --> 02:11:56.609
I you you've gotta feel for the men and women who are out there today.
02:11:56.930 --> 02:11:58.050
For sure, for sure.
02:11:58.369 --> 02:12:00.210
You know, you you just cannot win.
02:12:00.289 --> 02:12:02.369
It's it's almost like a lose-lose situation.
02:12:02.529 --> 02:12:02.849
Yeah.
02:12:03.010 --> 02:12:03.809
But you know what?
02:12:03.890 --> 02:12:06.689
You know, my message to them is keep going.
02:12:07.010 --> 02:12:08.689
Do not let this, you know, win.
02:12:09.010 --> 02:12:09.649
Back yourself.
02:12:09.890 --> 02:12:19.809
I'm I'm hoping that that the best outcome occurs for for the officer that has been charged and and you know that the situation that he's going through, but he'll be broken.
02:12:20.050 --> 02:12:24.609
He'll be broken now for the rest of his life going through this.
02:12:24.930 --> 02:12:26.369
The poor poor individual.
02:12:27.489 --> 02:12:29.409
So, you know, he's not the only one.
02:12:29.890 --> 02:12:32.449
It's not the first and it's not the last time, it's still happening.
02:12:32.689 --> 02:12:32.849
Yeah.
02:12:33.010 --> 02:12:47.569
I I look, I you know, one of a couple of the things like I had probably in my latter years as an assistant commissioner for this region, say northern region, so we covered from you know the bridge, the Hawkesbury Bridge up to the border with with Cool and Gatta.
02:12:48.689 --> 02:12:59.409
The amount of critical incidents where, you know, I had to authorize whether it was special weapons um, you know, or tactics uh or both.
02:12:59.809 --> 02:13:04.289
Um and we had a number of incidents where people were shot and killed.
02:13:04.769 --> 02:13:09.329
Um you know, and you've got to stand up for your your rank and file.
02:13:09.649 --> 02:13:09.890
100%.
02:13:10.529 --> 02:13:13.649
The men and women are out there to do the best they possibly can.
02:13:13.809 --> 02:13:15.649
Do they make mistakes at some stage?
02:13:15.970 --> 02:13:16.289
Yeah.
02:13:16.529 --> 02:13:17.010
They're human.
02:13:17.170 --> 02:13:18.130
They're human.
02:13:18.449 --> 02:13:20.130
But you've got to look after them.
02:13:20.369 --> 02:13:24.449
And you've got to s have the the courage to be able to stand up and go, you know what?
02:13:25.250 --> 02:13:32.289
I'll take the the heat from the press or or whatever the case may be, and let them know, you know what, you're doing your job.
02:13:32.449 --> 02:13:34.849
You're doing what you're asked to do.
02:13:35.569 --> 02:13:38.369
This is what you're sent out to to undertake.
02:13:38.689 --> 02:13:43.090
Do they come to work big and thinking, oh, you know what, I can't wait to shoot someone today?
02:13:43.250 --> 02:13:44.369
No, they don't.
02:13:44.930 --> 02:13:48.130
They want to go home safely and they want everyone else to go there.
02:13:48.529 --> 02:13:49.729
Their own ways safely.
02:13:49.890 --> 02:13:56.050
But at times, violence, because of mental health or drugs or whatever the case might be, stand in the way.
02:13:56.210 --> 02:14:02.930
And and you've got to act with a with an element of of you know stronger enforcement.
02:14:03.569 --> 02:14:09.970
Yeah, mate, it's uh yeah, and like you said, especially this day and age, it's just getting worse.
02:14:10.449 --> 02:14:11.970
Like you said with the youth now, yeah.
02:14:12.130 --> 02:14:23.890
Every single kid out there, they did just did an operation, they picked up 120 something knives off every and you know, a lot of my security guards work the doors every week with our fail, there's a knife story.
02:14:24.050 --> 02:14:24.289
Ah.
02:14:24.529 --> 02:14:27.649
We found a knife, we got a knife, there was a machete, there's this, there's that.
02:14:27.729 --> 02:14:29.090
I'm like, Jesus Christ.
02:14:29.329 --> 02:14:29.569
Yep.
02:14:29.890 --> 02:14:30.449
You know what?
02:14:30.529 --> 02:14:34.769
We're we're we've slagged off a little bit in regards to politics.
02:14:35.010 --> 02:14:45.010
But at least that's one area of where they've made the right move, and that's to support police, to give them the wands to be able then it should be across the state.
02:14:45.250 --> 02:14:53.409
Not on certain areas, across the state, they have a wand to be able to, you know, run over an individual to make sure they're not carrying a knife.
02:14:53.649 --> 02:14:54.130
For sure, yeah.
02:14:54.210 --> 02:14:55.170
No, I'm I'm down for it.
02:14:55.250 --> 02:14:57.729
I'm down for it, especially in you know who's carrying a knife.
02:14:57.809 --> 02:14:58.449
You can see them.
02:14:58.930 --> 02:15:03.250
You see these kids rolling around 16, 17 in their north face jackets, mate.
02:15:03.329 --> 02:15:04.849
You've got a knife on it, just know it.
02:15:05.010 --> 02:15:05.250
Yep.
02:15:05.729 --> 02:15:05.970
Yep.
02:15:06.130 --> 02:15:06.689
Yeah.
02:15:07.090 --> 02:15:11.250
And if you are a criminal out there and you pull a knife on a cop, you deserve to get shot.
02:15:11.489 --> 02:15:12.210
My words.
02:15:12.529 --> 02:15:15.090
But that's that's the way to deal with things.
02:15:15.250 --> 02:15:17.409
And if you are a cop out there, don't be shy.
02:15:17.809 --> 02:15:19.090
Someone does pull a knife on you.
02:15:19.250 --> 02:15:21.569
Honestly, like forced escalation.
02:15:21.649 --> 02:15:24.369
Don't bring you know a bat into a knife fight.
02:15:24.849 --> 02:15:26.210
Bring your gun to a knife fight.
02:15:26.289 --> 02:15:27.809
It's it's because you're gonna get killed.
02:15:27.890 --> 02:15:41.010
And we've seen it multiple scenarios where police have I guess second guessed their their forced escalation and gone to a scenario and not had their you know, pistol, they've had a taser out that's been malfunctioning, they've been stabbed.
02:15:41.170 --> 02:15:41.489
You know what?
02:15:41.970 --> 02:15:44.050
You've got to be really switched on with your training.
02:15:44.130 --> 02:15:47.890
And like if the organization doesn't give you this training, head out.
02:15:48.050 --> 02:15:53.250
Yeah, go to Next Peak, these other sorts of organizations outside of your organization get this training.
02:15:53.569 --> 02:16:04.130
Look, the the the police uh and and look from day one uh of my policing career to the end, one one of the things they did very well was was train and educate.
02:16:04.289 --> 02:16:06.369
Um at times could they have done better?
02:16:06.449 --> 02:16:17.329
Yeah, of course they could, but in particular in regards to uh the handling of your weapons um or your tactics and different things, they're they do a pretty damn good job.
02:16:17.489 --> 02:16:23.809
And most men and women are uh very skilled with their with their weapons, which is which is great.
02:16:24.050 --> 02:16:34.210
And of course now they're bringing in the um the new squad down in Sydney where there'll be a lot more long arms, which we've been waiting to see, or not me personally, but the general public has been waiting to see.
02:16:34.450 --> 02:16:37.090
100% because it makes it feel a lot safer.
02:16:37.329 --> 02:16:38.130
It's presence, isn't it?
02:16:38.210 --> 02:16:40.370
It's a force force continuum.
02:16:40.530 --> 02:16:41.489
First step is presence.
02:16:41.649 --> 02:16:42.370
Yep, yep.
02:16:42.770 --> 02:16:45.970
So you make you make yourself look like a hard target, you're gonna be a hard target.
02:16:46.210 --> 02:16:46.770
Yeah, yeah.
02:16:46.930 --> 02:17:01.970
I think what what um what stagnates a little bit in in the minds of the men and women is the fact that you know what, if I if I draw my weapon, and I'm only talking about drawing it, not using it, who's watching, who's filming, well that's it, yeah.
02:17:02.130 --> 02:17:05.090
Um, what oversight body is then gonna jump?
02:17:05.250 --> 02:17:08.050
Um, will my own organisation support me?
02:17:08.370 --> 02:17:14.290
These are all the things that if you speak to the men and women on the ground, it concerns them, and rightly so.
02:17:14.610 --> 02:17:16.290
Oh no, for sure, for sure.
02:17:16.450 --> 02:17:20.210
But this is where, Mal, if you're listening, back your troops.
02:17:20.450 --> 02:17:24.130
Back your troops until proven otherwise, isn't that the whole process?
02:17:24.370 --> 02:17:25.409
Yep, yep.
02:17:26.530 --> 02:17:27.649
Uh yeah, right, mate.
02:17:27.890 --> 02:17:28.930
Uh oh, there you go.
02:17:29.090 --> 02:17:31.170
Bit of a bit of politics, mate.
02:17:31.409 --> 02:17:32.850
At the top, at the top.
02:17:33.409 --> 02:17:34.610
This is coming from the top.
02:17:34.850 --> 02:17:39.890
As you spoke about now, you this is pre-December 15th, 2014.
02:17:40.130 --> 02:17:44.450
15th, 15th, 16th, 2014, Lint Cafe.
02:17:44.530 --> 02:17:44.690
Yep.
02:17:44.850 --> 02:17:46.690
You know, this is where it changes, I guess.
02:17:46.930 --> 02:17:47.970
Changes a lot of things.
02:17:48.050 --> 02:18:01.170
I read through, you know, I've had uh Ben Bazan on the podcast, he was the first through the door, put a couple of um drain plug, drain holes in uh old mate Man Monis, which again, the justice system let us down there again.
02:18:02.210 --> 02:18:07.090
Moving forward, Bondi last year, the whole system let us down for that one, which we'll talk about.
02:18:07.329 --> 02:18:09.729
I think I'll love to get your thoughts on it.
02:18:10.210 --> 02:18:13.010
But Lint Cafe, mate, what happens?
02:18:13.090 --> 02:18:15.250
You know, you're at the assistant commissioner level now.
02:18:15.409 --> 02:18:16.770
Link Cafe kicks off.
02:18:17.010 --> 02:18:19.890
What's you know, is there a text message that goes around?
02:18:20.130 --> 02:18:23.090
Or what how does it how do you get alerted to something like this?
02:18:23.170 --> 02:18:25.410
And what's the process here for someone at your level?
02:18:25.650 --> 02:18:31.010
Yeah, look, I'm I'm just trying to think back how I was actually alerted outside of it being a news event.
02:18:31.329 --> 02:18:32.050
Just a phone call.
02:18:32.210 --> 02:18:32.530
Yeah.
02:18:32.690 --> 02:18:33.090
Yeah.
02:18:33.329 --> 02:18:45.730
Um But look, that what swung into action very quickly is our counter-terrorism cadre of police pioneer commanders, uh, which I'm one of, which I was one of.
02:18:46.050 --> 02:18:50.610
Um so we were skilled in taking command of terrorism incidents.
02:18:51.170 --> 02:19:02.210
Um and and so that that process was undertaken, you know, quite quite um quite rapidly, which was which was pleasing to see.
02:19:02.450 --> 02:19:08.530
For me personally, um, because we run the transport system, um, what was occurring?
02:19:08.690 --> 02:19:15.970
Is it a was it a a single one-off incident with an individual or was it was it going to be a complex, yeah.
02:19:16.130 --> 02:19:16.770
Yeah, a complex.
02:19:17.090 --> 02:19:20.850
So your focus goes straight onto the public welfare or the public system transport.
02:19:21.010 --> 02:19:28.050
Yep because you're thinking London, London style, where they started bombing buses and blah, blah, blah, train stations.
02:19:28.530 --> 02:19:47.010
So straight away I had uh my senior staff with our officers deployed to those locations that that individuals within the city, um, you know, that there'd be people wanting to leave the city, get out of the city and and return home, um, they'd see police officers at their train stations.
02:19:47.170 --> 02:19:51.890
So they'd there would be a level of of comfort that they were secure.
02:19:52.130 --> 02:19:54.690
Um, let's get that in place immediately.
02:19:54.930 --> 02:19:56.370
And and which we did.
02:19:56.530 --> 02:20:13.090
Um, what followed from there was uh the police executive, the police commissioner's executive, then undertook what I think they referred to it as Operation Hammerhead, which was all about making sure that our level of visibility in New South Wales police was heightened.
02:20:13.250 --> 02:20:20.930
Um, again, making sure that you know our society was was calm, that this was a one-off, we've dealt with it.
02:20:21.090 --> 02:20:27.090
Um look at our, you know, whether it's transport, look at our road systems, you know, look at the way we operate.
02:20:27.170 --> 02:20:33.250
Um, we've got everything in place that you can go about your daily business safely.
02:20:33.730 --> 02:20:48.850
So we played a fairly significant role in that operation Hammerhead, making sure there was a lot of police visibility on the police transport network, you know, hoping that that we were getting the message across we're there for the the safety and support of our community.
02:20:49.650 --> 02:20:57.090
Um the whole issue in regards to the decision making of of Lint, um I had nothing to do with.
02:20:57.329 --> 02:21:00.210
Um difficult situation, you know.
02:21:00.450 --> 02:21:04.210
Um again, hindsight's a wonderful thing.
02:21:04.450 --> 02:21:17.250
Um, but um uh it's just uh another tragic tragic incident in in New South Wales policing history, I I believe, with uh with the outcome of of Lint.
02:21:17.650 --> 02:21:28.770
Um the uh the men the men from the tactical operations unit, God bless them, they they did a fantastic job job under the most trying of of circumstances.
02:21:28.930 --> 02:21:34.130
Um, you know, I've met some of those boys um and and they're fan fantastic fellas.
02:21:34.770 --> 02:21:40.450
Um do a such a professional job, highly skilled, um, highly experienced.
02:21:40.690 --> 02:21:48.370
You know, you'd it it's just you know, it was tragic the fact that you know there was loss of life outside of Man Morris.
02:21:49.250 --> 02:21:51.170
Well, you know, obviously a lot come out of it.
02:21:51.250 --> 02:21:54.850
Uh I read through the inquiry and a lot did come out of it eventually.
02:21:55.090 --> 02:21:58.930
Um it was a failure command to be expected.
02:21:59.170 --> 02:22:06.850
Now obviously when something like that does happen, now it's the cop on the ground that makes the decision, not someone laying in bed.
02:22:07.250 --> 02:22:08.370
Which yeah.
02:22:09.090 --> 02:22:15.410
But uh yeah, so obviously that changed a few things within uh New South Wales, specifically more for yourself.
02:22:15.490 --> 02:22:30.290
Uh, like you said, it turned into a more of a higher presence on the public system because that was obviously played through ASEAN that was you know part of the park uh targeting packages that they thought terrorists were gonna eventually target, which they did in other parts of the world.
02:22:30.450 --> 02:22:33.890
That's you know, the um in Spain and Madrid, etc.
02:22:34.130 --> 02:22:35.650
And obviously London.
02:22:36.130 --> 02:22:43.570
For your self mate, how long do you spend in that uh so your assistant commissioner from 2012 through to basically retiring?
02:22:43.970 --> 02:22:44.610
Yeah, yeah.
02:22:44.770 --> 02:22:59.250
So I spent, I think it was about roughly might have been just on six years, police transport command, because that was you know significant work in getting that structure up and running and delivering what what the government required.
02:22:59.570 --> 02:23:11.250
Um and also like it did, it took years to get the the the policing, the staffing of of that command uh to a level which was um agreeable with with government.
02:23:11.570 --> 02:23:20.610
So, you know, I look back on on that, which was which was difficult years, but at the same time, you know, creating a new police command.
02:23:20.770 --> 02:23:29.250
Um I I had the opportunity of working with some great people there, um, good people who are still best friends uh as of today.
02:23:29.410 --> 02:23:33.650
Um so that was a great experience and and part of my history.
02:23:33.810 --> 02:23:43.010
Um and then uh Mick Fuller became the police commissioner and Mick called me in to his office and said, mate, um, I want to move you.
02:23:43.090 --> 02:23:46.210
I want to, you know, what's your thoughts on going to Northern Region?
02:23:46.450 --> 02:23:51.090
And of course, being a Newcastle boy, born and bred, I went, you don't have to ask me twice.
02:23:51.329 --> 02:23:58.850
Um I was very, very proud to uh to finish my career in Northern Region as as the uh assistant commissioner.
02:23:59.170 --> 02:24:09.010
The the men and women who work in in this region, uh you know, they they work under the most trying of circumstances.
02:24:09.170 --> 02:24:12.930
Most of the crime rates are the highest in the state.
02:24:13.170 --> 02:24:20.290
When you look at, you know, what do our offices do in our local communities, they're going from domestic to domestic to domestic.
02:24:20.450 --> 02:24:23.090
They're dealing with mental health, mental health, mental health.
02:24:23.250 --> 02:24:25.090
They're dealing with deceased.
02:24:25.329 --> 02:24:37.650
You know, the what and look at times I've got frustrated at at some offices because, you know, it's all about providing to the community a good and fair level of service.
02:24:38.130 --> 02:24:48.210
And the amount of people that will complain to me going, Max, you know, I I've you know, a member of my family was assaulted or there's some incident, and you know what?
02:24:48.290 --> 02:24:50.290
I haven't heard from the local officer.
02:24:50.610 --> 02:24:55.010
Or when I when I have rang, oh he's off or she's off.
02:24:55.970 --> 02:25:05.810
Um what I would always encourage young men and women to do their utmost to pick up the phone and just update a victim of crime.
02:25:06.050 --> 02:25:07.410
Just let them know what's happening.
02:25:07.490 --> 02:25:11.570
If you if you're going to wait going away on holidays, let them know that.
02:25:12.130 --> 02:25:16.690
At least communicate with them where you're up to with the investigation, what's happening.
02:25:16.850 --> 02:25:22.050
Um, and that's all the general public, I think, uh are really crying out for.
02:25:22.290 --> 02:25:28.450
If they were informed, kept informed, and you know, it they are, they're a they're a victim of crime.
02:25:28.930 --> 02:25:42.370
Like treat that person, but at the same time, I can understand why some men and women, you know, they're so busy dealing with the incidents that that are occurring on a shift-by-shift basis.
02:25:42.530 --> 02:25:47.570
They don't get five minutes to go and you know, pick up a phone and ring ring some of their victims.
02:25:47.890 --> 02:25:49.810
It's a real catch-22.
02:25:50.130 --> 02:25:55.890
Um, and across Northern Region, you know, the the the crime that occurs is significant.
02:25:56.370 --> 02:26:06.370
Um do Northern Region uh commands require extra police, they they could deal with another few hundred extra police, and that would be only scratching the surface.
02:26:06.690 --> 02:26:23.730
But retention and retainment and recruitment in New South Wales police is at such a point where most local area commands now, they're lucky to be able to, you know, operate at 70% of their operational strength.
02:26:24.050 --> 02:26:28.370
You know, 30%, they're off on on sick leave or whatever the case may be.
02:26:28.530 --> 02:26:31.970
It's been a very, very difficult time.
02:26:32.370 --> 02:26:40.210
I know from what I hear that that Mal and his team are trying their utmost to turn that around, but it's not a five-minute fix.
02:26:40.530 --> 02:26:55.570
Um, and then what happens, and what I saw over the years, that you and I, for instance, if we're on a on a team and we're working the truck and you know a a couple of our team members go off on long-term sick, guess what?
02:26:55.810 --> 02:27:01.890
We're gonna carry that that burden of the workload, and eventually we're gonna we're gonna burn out.
02:27:02.370 --> 02:27:04.050
So it's a real catch 22.
02:27:04.290 --> 02:27:06.050
It is really difficult.
02:27:06.370 --> 02:27:13.970
Um why why are we having such difficulty in recruiting good people um to in today's world?
02:27:14.050 --> 02:27:15.570
I'm I'm not quite sure.
02:27:15.810 --> 02:27:17.730
But a lot of agencies are like that.
02:27:17.970 --> 02:27:21.650
I think, you know, if you look at health, look at fire, it's a change society.
02:27:21.810 --> 02:27:22.050
Yeah.
02:27:22.210 --> 02:27:37.010
It's a change in behaviour of people, but it also stems from the current governments, the weakness of our current governments, Liberal and Labour, both very left leaning, they have been very left-leaning for the last probably since John Howard.
02:27:37.570 --> 02:27:40.370
Very commissioners, obviously.
02:27:41.329 --> 02:27:43.410
Karen Webb, bloody hell.
02:27:43.890 --> 02:27:46.690
Enough said, very left, very weak.
02:27:46.850 --> 02:27:47.090
Uh uh.
02:27:47.810 --> 02:27:49.570
You know, and that's what you're gonna recruit.
02:27:49.730 --> 02:27:52.130
If you have a weak leader, you're gonna recruit weak people.
02:27:52.450 --> 02:27:56.690
You lower the standards, you're gonna recruit again, weaker people, they're gonna go off.
02:27:56.770 --> 02:28:02.050
Like you said, they're not exposing these kids to scenarios at the academy anymore.
02:28:02.210 --> 02:28:13.650
You know, there was a time during COVID where I knew I knew of officers that never placed handcuffs on people during training because it was COVID, which you know turned out to be just absolute ludicrous.
02:28:13.890 --> 02:28:23.250
And then they, you know, the first time putting handcuffs on someone was on the street, you know, there's stuff like this that just complete left-leaning politics that have it has destroyed policing.
02:28:23.329 --> 02:28:23.730
Yeah, yeah.
02:28:24.130 --> 02:28:29.090
Especially when I well, not destroyed policing, but more obviously the recruitment and retention of officers.
02:28:29.650 --> 02:28:47.090
And I I think Matt, you know, throw in what we've been sort of discussing at at times during this uh podcast, you know, the the external bodies, the oversight bodies, and w and even within our own agency, within policing itself, you know, I used to get annoyed with commanders.
02:28:47.170 --> 02:28:52.210
I used to say to them, do not manage your staff through the complaint management system.
02:28:52.930 --> 02:28:55.250
It used to piss me off no end.
02:28:55.970 --> 02:28:57.410
But but they would.
02:28:57.650 --> 02:29:09.570
You know, they'd target an individual and you know, the complaint the complaint sort of process gave them the opportunity to to get them moving on out of their command or out of the police.
02:29:09.970 --> 02:29:16.370
I used to sit on the commissioner's uh panel for 181Ds and um What's that?
02:29:16.690 --> 02:29:19.010
So a loss of confidence in a police officer.
02:29:19.170 --> 02:29:19.570
Yep.
02:29:19.810 --> 02:29:47.170
So there was a number of us, a number of assistant commissioners, um, along with legal, would sit and look at a case-by-case situation on individuals that would come before that panel that should be considered for demotions or you know, um a uh uh a managerial transfer or to the highest degree um put up to the commissioner for loss of police con the police commissioner's confidence.
02:29:48.370 --> 02:30:10.210
And time and time again I would see a commander come in and speak about that officer who was before the panel and say, all right, you know, they did A, B, and C, which um accounts to, you know, this level of of managerial action or or um dismissal from New South Wales police.
02:30:10.530 --> 02:30:23.490
First thing I'd always ask them is where was your sergeant or where was your inspector supporting that constable to make sure that one they were doing the right thing, but two, if that constable had made an error in judgment.
02:30:23.890 --> 02:30:24.690
Where was it rectified?
02:30:24.850 --> 02:30:26.050
When retraining.
02:30:26.690 --> 02:30:26.850
Yeah.
02:30:27.010 --> 02:30:29.730
When was it when could it have been rectified?
02:30:30.770 --> 02:30:39.410
Rather than allow it to get to a stage where we're we're considering uh a constable's um employment with New South Wales police.
02:30:39.490 --> 02:30:41.730
Uh it used to bug the hell out of me.
02:30:42.450 --> 02:30:47.090
Was that ever the was it was there ever the opposite example?
02:30:47.329 --> 02:30:49.970
Karen Webb was a vote of no confidence there.
02:30:50.130 --> 02:30:57.250
Surely that came across the table a few times, and like, Jesus Christ, like you've got someone that doesn't even know what type of pistol we carry or use.
02:30:57.570 --> 02:31:06.450
Yeah, look, I I like Karen, obviously I was I I retired when Karen took up the um the helm of of being our police police commissioner.
02:31:06.690 --> 02:31:07.250
Did you know her?
02:31:07.410 --> 02:31:08.930
Yeah, yeah, I I know Karen quite.
02:31:09.570 --> 02:31:12.530
Did you see her or was she just cold or creeping?
02:31:12.690 --> 02:31:15.570
I Yeah, I could tell you playing the political game.
02:31:15.730 --> 02:31:15.970
Yeah, yeah.
02:31:16.130 --> 02:31:17.650
Look didn't they call her Casper?
02:31:18.770 --> 02:31:20.610
I've heard that, but anyway.
02:31:20.930 --> 02:31:33.090
Um you know, unfortunately for for Karen, I I I guess, from a political point of view, um, you know, I I blame the politicians.
02:31:33.490 --> 02:31:36.690
You know, was she the right person to become the police commissioner?
02:31:36.850 --> 02:31:41.730
I think you know, her actions and history all say, well, probably not.
02:31:42.130 --> 02:31:50.450
Um who would have been a better commissioner at the time, you know, Nick Caldus or Dave Hudson, for instance, um, you know, they had the runs on the board.
02:31:50.610 --> 02:31:59.650
Um, but I guess it was about a government that was trying to uh promote a female into an executive position within government.
02:31:59.810 --> 02:32:02.770
Um that could be manipulated and told what to do.
02:32:03.250 --> 02:32:04.050
Possibly, yeah.
02:32:04.370 --> 02:32:05.410
I'd I think we've seen it.
02:32:05.570 --> 02:32:05.890
Yeah.
02:32:06.050 --> 02:32:11.329
But but Perite at the time, uh he was the one who was the uh liberal leader.
02:32:11.490 --> 02:32:14.050
Um did he make a sound sound decision?
02:32:14.210 --> 02:32:18.130
I I I guess we've we've you know, there's a lot of people that would say no he didn't.
02:32:18.370 --> 02:32:19.810
Was he a sound politician?
02:32:20.290 --> 02:32:22.370
A lot of people, a lot of people say he wasn't.
02:32:22.610 --> 02:32:25.410
Yeah, I I I don't know the man, I never came across him.
02:32:25.650 --> 02:32:35.250
But um, but certainly for for Karen's sake, you know, she you know, I I just think she was probably promoted above where she wanted to be.
02:32:35.490 --> 02:32:43.970
Um, you know, having the the the keys to the organization handed to you and saying we want you to be the police commissioner, you you've got to be proud of that.
02:32:44.290 --> 02:32:50.530
But unfortunately, um, you know, there was incidents, you know, that the tragic bus crash.
02:32:50.850 --> 02:32:51.810
Yeah, up here.
02:32:52.290 --> 02:32:59.890
You know, we we never saw her for a number of days until basically she was pushed in front of the cameras for the media, which is a real shame.
02:33:00.050 --> 02:33:06.930
Um it's the same thing when that uh that constable tased that 90-year-old I know.
02:33:07.410 --> 02:33:08.930
And that that's that's the thing.
02:33:09.010 --> 02:33:10.850
So she's now going to be remembered.
02:33:11.170 --> 02:33:12.690
That's what she's mem remembered for.
02:33:12.850 --> 02:33:15.490
For those going missing and just saying stupid things.
02:33:15.650 --> 02:33:15.890
Yep.
02:33:16.130 --> 02:33:18.930
I haven't seen the body cam footage, and I don't want to.
02:33:19.410 --> 02:33:20.050
You're the boss.
02:33:20.210 --> 02:33:20.450
Yeah.
02:33:20.610 --> 02:33:23.090
Well you should be making decisions on this stuff.
02:33:23.250 --> 02:33:23.410
Yeah.
02:33:23.570 --> 02:33:31.329
So back then, the politicians made the wrong decision, in my my view, and I think that's been proven by time.
02:33:31.730 --> 02:33:37.410
Um, and it's a shame for Karen, because the the the woman is a uh is a lovely person.
02:33:37.810 --> 02:33:43.650
Um but she's been thrust into a position that probably beyond her.
02:33:44.850 --> 02:33:49.170
This about uh the you know, current prime minister, previous prime ministers, yeah, they're lovely people.
02:33:49.570 --> 02:33:51.490
Julie Gillard, she's a lovely person.
02:33:51.570 --> 02:33:54.690
I'm sure she was a lovely person, but a shit prime minister.
02:33:56.450 --> 02:33:57.730
Call it Agent World, mate.
02:33:58.050 --> 02:33:59.810
Just like um our guy right now.
02:33:59.970 --> 02:34:01.810
Yeah, absolutely woeful.
02:34:02.370 --> 02:34:04.450
Um but I've again I've heard he's a lovely guy.
02:34:04.610 --> 02:34:05.490
Yeah, I yeah.
02:34:06.130 --> 02:34:07.730
He's never worked in his life, has he?
02:34:08.290 --> 02:34:10.370
No, he yeah, he's been a politician his whole life.
02:34:10.530 --> 02:34:11.170
That's right.
02:34:11.730 --> 02:34:13.170
Fancy that, fancy that.
02:34:13.250 --> 02:34:15.010
But yeah, mate, no, you're exactly right.
02:34:15.090 --> 02:34:20.690
It's uh probably a lovely person, but again, political porn put there for a reason.
02:34:21.329 --> 02:34:23.410
Yeah, manipulation of government, who knows?
02:34:24.050 --> 02:34:24.450
Yeah.
02:34:24.690 --> 02:34:25.250
But it's a shame.
02:34:26.370 --> 02:34:27.170
It's the house of cards.
02:34:27.410 --> 02:34:33.010
Yeah, it's a shame because you know a Dave Hudson, for instance, could have done the job quite percent, or Nick Cowtis.
02:34:33.090 --> 02:34:34.370
Yeah, oh yeah, bring Nick back.
02:34:34.530 --> 02:34:35.890
Bring yeah, I've told him, eh.
02:34:36.130 --> 02:34:36.770
See, he needs to come back.
02:34:36.850 --> 02:34:39.970
He's he's in the UAE now, and oh, he's always somewhere, is he?
02:34:40.210 --> 02:34:42.210
Yeah, yeah, should be back here running the country.
02:34:42.370 --> 02:34:46.370
No, good good man, but yeah, he he would have made a fantastic police commissioner.
02:34:46.610 --> 02:34:56.050
You know, look, like I said, Peter Ryan, I think was was a police commissioner the organisation needed to have, and he he delivered the all the change.
02:34:56.290 --> 02:35:05.250
Ken Moroney was by far the best commissioner in my my personal view and and such an approachable individual.
02:35:05.570 --> 02:35:21.250
Um, and I and look, I I I um apologise for for forgetting some of the police commissioners, but but um you know Andrew Scipione, uh Andrew was was a great uh spokesperson and and stature for the organisation.
02:35:21.490 --> 02:35:24.610
Uh Mick Fuller, I think Mick did a terrific job.
02:35:24.690 --> 02:35:32.690
Like he had COVID and geez, poor old Mick, he was he was always in front of the cameras, cameras during COVID, but he he did his utmost.
02:35:32.930 --> 02:35:46.210
Um and then of course, unfortunately, um, you know, there was Karen and of course now with they've turned the uh turned the cycle back to to a good person in in Mail, who's uh I I I I wish him all the best the pushback a bit.
02:35:46.450 --> 02:35:47.329
I just wish him all the best.
02:35:47.490 --> 02:35:48.210
Yeah, no for sure.
02:35:49.010 --> 02:35:51.010
If he's listening, mate, just push back.
02:35:52.450 --> 02:35:54.130
Tell her to get back very very difficult.
02:35:54.370 --> 02:35:55.570
Get back in the politician.
02:35:56.050 --> 02:35:57.730
Drive him from the back seat and lead the way, mate.
02:35:58.050 --> 02:35:58.450
Lead the way.
02:35:58.610 --> 02:36:04.290
Because yeah, again, I've heard of he's a he's a pretty good cop, and everyone uh backs him.
02:36:04.530 --> 02:36:06.210
Mate's for yourself now.
02:36:06.370 --> 02:36:11.410
You you get out in 2022, but what what's what's leading to this?
02:36:11.490 --> 02:36:15.329
This obviously you're 40 years on the job, you're at that political level now.
02:36:15.490 --> 02:36:18.050
I'm sure you're getting frustrated with a few things.
02:36:18.370 --> 02:36:21.890
You're missing the the the run and gunning on the on the ground.
02:36:21.970 --> 02:36:23.410
I'm sure that's that's well gone.
02:36:23.490 --> 02:36:23.730
Yeah.
02:36:24.210 --> 02:36:35.010
But you're at the top now, political games, this is where I guess Yeah, it was it was, you know, there was a there was a number of things that sort of uh crossed my mind in terms of the thought of exit.
02:36:35.329 --> 02:36:40.610
Um, you know, I knew Mick was just about to to uh finish up as the police commissioner.
02:36:40.770 --> 02:36:44.050
His time was you know coming to a close.
02:36:44.610 --> 02:37:16.050
Um and look, I I had relieved quite quite often as a deputy commissioner for for regional New South Wales, which that was a position created by Mick, and it was a great one because it gave more of a voice to regional policing, having a deputy commissioner, where in the past you only had a field deputy commissioner, and they were generally I say generally, I'm just trying to think, but they always came from Metropolitan Sydney and they'd never done time um out in regional locations.
02:37:16.530 --> 02:37:22.690
So it was good to have a deputy commissioner for regional policing and having that that voice around the table.
02:37:23.010 --> 02:37:27.970
So that was a great, uh I think a great introduction to New South Wales Police by Mick Fuller.
02:37:28.450 --> 02:37:44.210
Um yeah, and then you know, funny because at that stage I was told that um no more relieving for me and and others, it was you know, they they wanted to promote a female and Karen Webb was going to to get the the inside running.
02:37:44.450 --> 02:37:46.370
And I just went, you know what?
02:37:46.610 --> 02:37:48.610
I I'm I'm over it.
02:37:48.930 --> 02:37:52.610
I I've always been a great believer in How does that sorry, how does that come down?
02:37:52.770 --> 02:37:55.090
Like does that come from the boss, the commissioner?
02:37:55.410 --> 02:37:57.250
No, not the commissioner, just his deputy.
02:37:57.410 --> 02:37:57.730
Yeah.
02:37:57.970 --> 02:38:00.930
Just his deputy to say, look, you know, this is this is what's occurring.
02:38:01.329 --> 02:38:03.250
This is what the the current government wants.
02:38:03.490 --> 02:38:03.810
Yeah.
02:38:03.970 --> 02:38:09.490
And and and again, it's not about so much the police commissioner, it's always about government.
02:38:09.650 --> 02:38:11.410
Government's uh Yeah, that's what I mean, yeah.
02:38:11.570 --> 02:38:11.890
Yeah.
02:38:12.130 --> 02:38:15.010
Yeah, so as in the uh premier.
02:38:15.170 --> 02:38:15.570
Yeah.
02:38:15.730 --> 02:38:16.050
Yeah.
02:38:16.210 --> 02:38:20.290
So that's or the police minister, it could have come from the police minister for all I know.
02:38:20.610 --> 02:38:30.290
But but wanting to um I guess promote more more females within within the organisation.
02:38:30.450 --> 02:38:31.890
And you know, look, I get that.
02:38:32.050 --> 02:38:34.770
I've worked with some wonderful policewomen.
02:38:35.329 --> 02:38:38.450
Um and and they're you know, I put them up against a male any time.
02:38:38.690 --> 02:38:40.050
Tons of fantastic.
02:38:40.370 --> 02:38:42.690
Deb Wallace, absolutely gangster.
02:38:43.010 --> 02:38:43.890
Deb's a great example.
02:38:44.130 --> 02:38:45.410
She's a gangster in a frock.
02:38:45.490 --> 02:38:45.730
Yeah.
02:38:45.890 --> 02:38:46.130
Yeah.
02:38:46.210 --> 02:38:46.690
Yeah, beautiful.
02:38:47.490 --> 02:38:48.210
I don't want to fuck with her.
02:38:48.450 --> 02:38:50.130
Beautiful person, smart operator.
02:38:50.290 --> 02:38:50.690
Yeah.
02:38:50.930 --> 02:38:52.210
Um, God love her.
02:38:52.450 --> 02:38:56.210
But um, yeah, some some wonderful police women in our in our organization.
02:38:56.450 --> 02:38:56.690
100%.
02:38:57.170 --> 02:39:09.490
But the bottom line to me is, and it's always been the same, don't promote someone or give them the inside running unless they're they're they can actually prove through their own performance and accountability.
02:39:11.650 --> 02:39:12.290
Exactly.
02:39:12.530 --> 02:39:13.329
Doesn't matter what you're doing.
02:39:14.530 --> 02:39:17.250
Yeah, it don't belong to a barbecue squad or or whatever.
02:39:17.570 --> 02:39:19.570
You'll be a cross-dresser on the weekend, I don't care.
02:39:19.970 --> 02:39:21.090
As long as you're the top cop.
02:39:21.170 --> 02:39:21.329
Yep.
02:39:21.490 --> 02:39:31.970
Yep, because nine out of ten times the top cop, the best one on merit, will be the person who understands the the rank and file, who will get the job done for for them.
02:39:32.210 --> 02:39:44.610
And anyhow, I I I said to you, you know, way back when we first met, part of my philosophy with leadership, yeah, particularly within policing, is the staff don't work for me.
02:39:44.690 --> 02:39:47.490
I never asked the staff to work for me, I work for them.
02:39:48.050 --> 02:39:51.650
So, and what I always meant by that is what do they need?
02:39:52.290 --> 02:39:54.610
You know, how should they be supported?
02:39:54.850 --> 02:40:04.850
Um and you work hard to try and and provide that level of support and and leadership through through trouble, particularly troubled times.
02:40:05.090 --> 02:40:09.170
Um and look at at times, did I get it, did I always get it right?
02:40:09.490 --> 02:40:10.530
I'd say no.
02:40:11.010 --> 02:40:16.290
Um there's some people out there that would say, yeah, you're an arsehole and and different things, and and I get that.
02:40:16.690 --> 02:40:30.450
But for the for the majority of the rank and file, I always tried to do my absolute utmost for them to make to make policing interesting, enjoyable, um, supportive.
02:40:30.770 --> 02:40:34.370
Um, why did they join the cops to make a difference?
02:40:34.850 --> 02:40:36.450
Sounds logical, mate.
02:40:36.770 --> 02:40:41.329
Sounds logical, but like you said, mate, it's it's the government of the day that dictates this.
02:40:41.410 --> 02:40:54.930
And you know, why would you want to put a top cop like Nick Cowdis up there where he you know for a fact he's gonna be pushing against police ministers and state premiers, and I I reckon he'd be pushing pretty hard against the two right now, that's for sure.
02:40:55.250 --> 02:40:56.770
I think you might be right.
02:40:58.130 --> 02:40:59.490
Uh yeah, right, mate.
02:40:59.570 --> 02:41:03.410
So so you finally come up to the decision of that's it.
02:41:03.650 --> 02:41:06.530
40 years, obviously the pre-88 stuff.
02:41:06.850 --> 02:41:07.970
Yep, it was it.
02:41:08.050 --> 02:41:11.170
You know, the bucket, in the bucket in many regards, was full.
02:41:11.329 --> 02:41:17.329
Um, you know, you you know, I I can talk about PTSD where you know you have trouble sleeping.
02:41:17.570 --> 02:41:21.010
Um you know, you act out in your and act out in your sleep.
02:41:21.090 --> 02:41:26.690
Even today, I I still dream and talk in my sleep about policing.
02:41:27.010 --> 02:41:30.130
My wife will say, Oh my god, you you didn't shut up last night.
02:41:30.290 --> 02:41:30.610
Oh yeah.
02:41:30.770 --> 02:41:31.410
What were you dreaming?
02:41:31.490 --> 02:41:34.130
And I go, Oh, I was you know just resting someone.
02:41:34.290 --> 02:41:36.530
I was just talking to the to the rank and file.
02:41:36.690 --> 02:41:36.930
Yeah.
02:41:37.090 --> 02:41:40.210
You know, it's it's a strange thing, you know.
02:41:40.290 --> 02:42:04.290
Like one of my best mates, um, Roger Peters, and Roger was a psychologist in at Newcastle, God love him, and rest in peace, Roger, but but you know, I was blessed with Roger because if I saw an officer that I knew was struggling, I could ring Roger up and say, Roger, can I get this officer um to see you ASAP?
02:42:04.530 --> 02:42:05.730
Go, mate, not a problem.
02:42:06.130 --> 02:42:10.210
He would move heaven and earth to to look after local police.
02:42:10.370 --> 02:42:20.530
And he did the same for emergency services, the Ambos, he did a lot of work with with local ambulance and military, because he was ex-military himself.
02:42:20.850 --> 02:42:22.290
Magnificent man.
02:42:23.090 --> 02:42:32.530
But um, you know, probably one of the one of the things I learned from Roger was I had a lot of officers at one stage off on long-term sick.
02:42:32.690 --> 02:42:34.050
And I said, What are you doing, Rog?
02:42:34.290 --> 02:42:42.610
Like, because he was signing them off, going that they're they're done, they're burnt out, PTSD, um, they're they're getting out of the job.
02:42:42.770 --> 02:42:44.290
I said, What are you doing to me, mate?
02:42:44.370 --> 02:42:45.010
You're killing me.
02:42:45.090 --> 02:42:48.450
Like, I've got hardly any staff left, blah, blah, blah.
02:42:48.690 --> 02:42:52.530
And he'd he he said to me, he said, mate, it's as simple as this.
02:42:52.770 --> 02:42:56.210
I used to ask the officer when they walked through the door, what do you want to do?
02:42:56.450 --> 02:43:01.650
If they said they wanted to go, he said, I'd exit them as soon as I possibly could for you.
02:43:01.810 --> 02:43:03.970
Not me personally, but for the police.
02:43:04.210 --> 02:43:05.329
I said, why?
02:43:06.130 --> 02:43:16.290
He said, because they he said you have to understand PTSD will you know, develop in police at a very early stage of their career.
02:43:16.370 --> 02:43:18.290
It'll only get worse with some.
02:43:18.530 --> 02:43:20.610
That's how you manage yourself.
02:43:20.930 --> 02:43:24.290
Um, but he said importantly, he said, they are broken.
02:43:24.530 --> 02:43:34.690
And he said, what you're not in what you're not considering is you you have a lot of people, a lot of police walking around broken who are carrying a gun.
02:43:35.410 --> 02:43:37.570
He said, which isn't a great scenario.
02:43:38.050 --> 02:43:41.410
And I went, I thought, thought about it, I went, you know what, you're right.
02:43:42.050 --> 02:43:54.770
If they're if they're busted, we should be letting them go as as soon as we possibly can and and get on with their lives and in particular get on with treatment and hopefully turn their turn their lives around.
02:43:55.250 --> 02:44:01.890
Um so yeah, PTSD is is is alive and well 100%.
02:44:02.770 --> 02:44:05.250
And you know, that's never going to change.
02:44:05.490 --> 02:44:05.810
No.
02:44:06.290 --> 02:44:31.250
One one of the things I would encourage young men and women to to look at is understand that that this is highly likely to develop in your policing career, but it's how you manage it in terms of your own health, your fitness, um, you know, going to the gym, being physically fit, whether it's like it's simple as swimming laps or walking or or whatever the case may be, but be active.
02:44:31.410 --> 02:44:32.930
Um having breaks.
02:44:33.170 --> 02:44:37.010
I used to always say to officers, when's the last time you had your annual leave?
02:44:37.170 --> 02:44:45.810
Some officers wouldn't, you know, they'd they'd accumulate their annual leave over 12 months, um, some over two years.
02:44:46.130 --> 02:44:49.730
And you'd go, you need to have a regular break.
02:44:50.370 --> 02:44:52.210
You've got to have a time off.
02:44:52.530 --> 02:44:54.850
And two weeks generally, I found wasn't enough.
02:44:54.930 --> 02:45:05.970
You needed probably around that three weeks because two weeks you're coming down, and before you know it, you your body's starting to tune back up to go back to work.
02:45:06.290 --> 02:45:21.329
Where at least three weeks you tune down, you've you you level out to a degree to relax and and you know re uh recalibrate before you then tune back up to come back to work.
02:45:22.770 --> 02:45:29.650
I I know this is all well and good, but I've heard of many, many stories from many current cops.
02:45:29.810 --> 02:45:33.810
Again, I speak to a lot of police officers, see a lot of police officers, get a lot of messages.
02:45:33.970 --> 02:45:39.250
I know for a fact there's cops out there that have applied for leave, been rejected, and had to crack on.
02:45:39.650 --> 02:45:44.610
I've heard of times, you know, uh multiple scenarios uh cops have been sick and they've had to crack on.
02:45:44.930 --> 02:45:46.530
Like, where does this change?
02:45:46.610 --> 02:45:49.890
And cops doing 70, 80 hours a week.
02:45:49.970 --> 02:45:53.810
It's not legal, but we still make we push our police officers.
02:45:54.050 --> 02:46:03.250
We we are pushing, or the government, the the structure is pushing police officers to the edge rather than managing this PTSD.
02:46:03.570 --> 02:46:03.810
Yeah.
02:46:03.970 --> 02:46:19.650
Look, I I I think there needs to be a look, there'd be an argument that over the last 10, 15 years, there's been a lot of um change with the New South Wales police to support their officers and support the management of injured officers.
02:46:20.130 --> 02:46:24.210
And look, I I know one of my daughters, she's a paramedic.
02:46:24.530 --> 02:46:36.290
And so the difference between how a paramedic has been managed off on an injury to how police I'm very proud of how the police officer gets managed.
02:46:36.610 --> 02:46:39.810
And one's a health system, they should know better than what we do.
02:46:40.690 --> 02:46:53.010
But I think where I'm where I'm working towards with this is there needs to be a significant rethink about the way we police, the pressures that we put our police officers under on a daily basis.
02:46:53.250 --> 02:47:06.290
You know, saying to a police officer you can't have your leave because we're short staffed, I could imagine has has occurred and is occurring because of not having enough operational police on the ground at their command.
02:47:06.530 --> 02:47:17.090
Um but that's only going to end up in in more more desa more of a disaster because they'll burn out because they're not getting their leave.
02:47:17.650 --> 02:47:35.170
Um but I think this also goes back to a significant issue that New South Wales police are facing, and that is we are being asked to undertake far more than what core policing is about because we're the only 24-hour service outside of the paramedics and the firies.
02:47:35.410 --> 02:47:36.450
Everyone else goes home.
02:47:36.530 --> 02:47:36.770
Yeah.
02:47:36.930 --> 02:47:37.890
They knock off.
02:47:38.130 --> 02:47:44.610
And so when a member of the public requires um some assistance, who can I ring?
02:47:44.770 --> 02:47:46.850
Oh, oh, the police will look after this.
02:47:47.090 --> 02:47:49.570
And it might have nothing to do with policing.
02:47:49.890 --> 02:47:50.130
Yeah.
02:47:50.370 --> 02:47:51.810
Like noise complaints, for instance.
02:47:51.970 --> 02:47:53.250
Well, they should be done by council.
02:47:53.329 --> 02:47:58.370
If you know, get a council ranger to to work night shift and do the noise complaints.
02:47:58.530 --> 02:47:59.890
Don't ask the police.
02:48:00.130 --> 02:48:04.850
You know, there's enough on police now without giving them extra requirements.
02:48:05.010 --> 02:48:21.090
Like the one thing I've noticed, and and it's such a huge issue, it's you know, it it seems to be out of control, is the tobacco industry with all the um the blacklisted tobacco coming into the country, it's worth you know, who who would put a finger on it?
02:48:21.410 --> 02:48:22.290
But guess what?
02:48:22.530 --> 02:48:24.610
Health has asked the police to go along.
02:48:25.170 --> 02:48:30.130
Shut all these yeah, what's not a yeah and you go, you know, really?
02:48:31.090 --> 02:48:42.130
Um I I get it if the police weren't busy, you could ask them to to pick up a a bit of the workload, but they're flat out now without asking them and giving them more duties to undertake.
02:48:42.450 --> 02:48:42.690
Yeah.
02:48:42.930 --> 02:49:00.450
I think it's one of the maybe you know, re restructuring down the track, but you know, you're looking at the US model where they've got an ATF, they've got organizations that just look after alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, rather than having the feds do it or the FBI or yeah, state police, or they've actually got units.
02:49:00.530 --> 02:49:05.170
I don't maybe Australia starts looking at models like this to expand our organizations.
02:49:05.570 --> 02:49:09.410
Look, it's worthwhile taking taking into consideration, without a doubt.
02:49:09.490 --> 02:49:13.570
And that's what I mean about you know, the whole environment in today's world.
02:49:13.810 --> 02:49:17.010
How do we police, um, how do we use technology better?
02:49:17.090 --> 02:49:18.450
How do we use AI?
02:49:19.170 --> 02:49:31.650
Um, they're all issues that need to come into the fold, but they need to be addressed far more immediately and as a priority than oh, we'll we'll look at it when we get to it.
02:49:32.130 --> 02:49:45.730
And it just bumbles along the road, and in two years' time you'll hear the same issues being raised because I know that there's there's certain issues that that are raised in today's policing that were the same 20 years ago.
02:49:46.210 --> 02:49:46.930
Never changed.
02:49:47.090 --> 02:49:47.410
Yeah.
02:49:47.650 --> 02:49:52.450
But I think it's it's time for a significant rethink in in the way we we operate.
02:49:52.770 --> 02:49:55.329
I think the judicial system needs an uppercut or two as well.
02:49:55.570 --> 02:49:56.050
Ah, they do.
02:49:56.130 --> 02:49:58.130
Look, they let police down significantly.
02:49:58.290 --> 02:49:59.090
But you know what?
02:49:59.170 --> 02:50:02.290
What I I don't want to be negative on our police.
02:50:03.170 --> 02:50:06.610
I hope I'm not coming across as being negative in saying this.
02:50:07.090 --> 02:50:16.210
But our New South Wales police, one thing that they could do exceptionally well is they accept and they move on and they deal with it.
02:50:17.410 --> 02:50:21.250
You know, the politicians will ask, like we were just talking about the tobacco.
02:50:21.410 --> 02:50:21.890
Guess what?
02:50:21.970 --> 02:50:22.770
What do we see?
02:50:22.930 --> 02:50:33.250
Police out there in today's world, you know, enforcing tobacco laws and and shutting down, you know, places that have got legal supply going on and so forth.
02:50:33.410 --> 02:50:35.170
They just accept and they get on with it.
02:50:35.250 --> 02:50:36.530
But it's unfair.
02:50:36.770 --> 02:50:40.930
It's unfair that they're being asked to do that when they have so many other issues.
02:50:41.170 --> 02:50:45.170
And this is, sorry to to um put back here, yeah.
02:50:45.490 --> 02:50:54.370
But this is where it comes into play, where the general community, like like I said, as a victim, they just want to be informed, kept up to date.
02:50:54.690 --> 02:50:56.130
Well, this is the issue.
02:50:56.210 --> 02:51:06.690
The the young men and women don't get the chance a lot of the time to be able to pick, have have a bit of downtime to go, you know what, I've got this, you know, I've got ten cases.
02:51:06.850 --> 02:51:09.250
I want to update each of my victims.
02:51:09.490 --> 02:51:11.090
They don't get that opportunity.
02:51:11.490 --> 02:51:12.370
It's a backlog.
02:51:12.610 --> 02:51:12.850
Yeah.
02:51:13.090 --> 02:51:17.970
Because someone's coming down the the steps from the you know, the hierarchy.
02:51:18.130 --> 02:51:20.450
Someone's coming down the steps going, what are you doing?
02:51:20.530 --> 02:51:21.570
Get out on the road.
02:51:21.810 --> 02:51:26.610
You've got a domestic or or you've got, you know, a mental health to to deal with.
02:51:27.730 --> 02:51:30.850
That's that's the reality of of policing in today's world.
02:51:31.170 --> 02:51:33.970
Yeah, that's yeah, definitely a m a manning issue.
02:51:34.130 --> 02:51:42.610
You know, for me, I've always I've always advocated, I don't know, again, moving into that uh US style of policing where they bring in a part-time force.
02:51:42.770 --> 02:51:49.170
You know, imagine if you were, you know, you've retired from full-time, but you're still actively like an active reserve, like in the army.
02:51:49.329 --> 02:51:50.050
They call you up.
02:51:50.210 --> 02:51:51.890
Hey Max, mate, we've got two weeks.
02:51:51.970 --> 02:51:55.970
One of the assistant commissioners going off of he's taking a month off, he's going to the Greek islands.
02:51:56.130 --> 02:51:58.370
Hey Max, can you come in and just run this for a month?
02:51:58.610 --> 02:51:59.250
Yeah, sweet, mate.
02:51:59.329 --> 02:52:01.410
Yeah, I'm I'm retired, I'm free.
02:52:01.490 --> 02:52:01.650
Yeah.
02:52:01.810 --> 02:52:02.450
May as well.
02:52:02.690 --> 02:52:04.050
I it's funny you mentioned that.
02:52:04.130 --> 02:52:08.610
I I saw that on a program just recently, and I went, what a good idea.
02:52:08.850 --> 02:52:10.370
That's that's a really good idea.
02:52:10.690 --> 02:52:12.450
It's a simple, simple fix, isn't it?
02:52:12.610 --> 02:52:12.930
Yeah.
02:52:13.170 --> 02:52:19.490
But but here's this is where, from a policing aspect, and it follows on with from what you're saying there.
02:52:19.810 --> 02:52:30.450
When I was about to finish up, I remember I was over at Manley at the um Australian Institute of Police Management with Mick Fuller and all that the other executive members.
02:52:30.770 --> 02:52:37.410
Anyway, we're out walking, and Mick and I were just sort of, you know, chewing the fat about, you know, finishing up and different things.
02:52:37.650 --> 02:52:44.210
And I said to him, I said, Mick, why is it that I finish up on a on a certain date?
02:52:44.370 --> 02:52:58.530
I've got all these years of experience and skills and different things, and I'm not asked to actually mentor uh another young assistant commissioner who's just been given the keys to the car.
02:52:58.850 --> 02:52:59.650
It just dies there.
02:52:59.810 --> 02:53:01.170
Or a superintendent.
02:53:01.329 --> 02:53:02.050
It just dies.
02:53:02.210 --> 02:53:04.050
And he said, Oh mate, we we don't have the budget.
02:53:04.210 --> 02:53:06.850
I said, No, no, no, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for money.
02:53:06.930 --> 02:53:10.290
I'm I'll I'll be fine with with what I get.
02:53:10.610 --> 02:53:21.890
But what I'm saying is, I would volunteer my time to assist even young officers to understand um what's in front of them with policing.
02:53:22.130 --> 02:53:24.690
And you go, like, why isn't that occurring?
02:53:24.770 --> 02:53:29.970
That might be a great support uh aspect that that could really help a lot of police.
02:53:30.130 --> 02:53:30.530
For sure.
02:53:30.770 --> 02:53:31.810
Should be paid though.
02:53:32.210 --> 02:53:34.690
And and I I think that's a big old cop out.
02:53:34.770 --> 02:53:39.650
I don't have the budget, but I understand the police don't have the budget, but this is for Yasmin, if you're listening, love.
02:53:40.210 --> 02:53:41.490
This is where you find that budget.
02:53:41.570 --> 02:53:47.410
Yeah, rather than the federal government spending fifty million dollars on you know the OSI to throw soldiers under the bus.
02:53:47.490 --> 02:53:48.850
How about you use part of that fifty million?
02:53:48.930 --> 02:53:51.810
We'll pass it out to the states so they could run a system like this.
02:53:52.050 --> 02:53:53.010
Yeah, yeah.
02:53:53.329 --> 02:54:00.850
I um I look whether it's paid or not paid, like my view is I I'm I I was happy to volunteer my time.
02:54:01.090 --> 02:54:01.250
Sure.
02:54:01.730 --> 02:54:05.650
Just uh, you know, it might be a a day here and there, sort of every month.
02:54:05.810 --> 02:54:20.690
Um, but to to do my best and to and to help help the the the police that are coming through because I found it such a good career and a love for the organisation, and they are my my my blue family to help them.
02:54:20.930 --> 02:54:28.290
But yeah, they just cut us off and you go, My God, you're just all this wealth of experience that that a a number of us have and we just walk off.
02:54:29.170 --> 02:54:34.930
Even at the you know the senior constable rank where someone's done 20 years and they get out, that just again it just dies there.
02:54:35.010 --> 02:54:35.329
That's it.
02:54:35.490 --> 02:54:37.570
Yeah, imagine if they stayed on as a part-time officer.
02:54:37.730 --> 02:54:40.450
I know again, but hey hey John, can you come in for two weeks?
02:54:40.610 --> 02:54:42.370
Uh yeah, oh mate's taking some time off.
02:54:42.450 --> 02:54:43.410
I need you down in gossiping.
02:54:43.490 --> 02:54:44.050
Yeah, done, mate.
02:54:44.130 --> 02:54:44.290
Sweet.
02:54:44.530 --> 02:54:48.450
But you know what, Maddie, you hit on something which I totally 100% agree with.
02:54:48.530 --> 02:54:50.850
And that is take the budget off OSI.
02:54:51.250 --> 02:54:54.290
They're not needed because they shouldn't be doing what they're doing.
02:54:54.450 --> 02:54:54.770
100%.
02:54:55.410 --> 02:54:58.050
Mate, and and I I said this to you before.
02:54:58.210 --> 02:55:06.210
I said any of the men and women who fight, unless you've actually picked up a rifle and fought alongside them, you've got no right to criticize.
02:55:06.450 --> 02:55:07.250
Exactly right.
02:55:07.490 --> 02:55:07.970
Simple.
02:55:08.130 --> 02:55:09.490
Yep, mate, exactly right.
02:55:09.730 --> 02:55:17.650
And hey, coming from a police officer, let's for example, yeah, you've got uh someone's been charged with war crimes, Ben R Smith.
02:55:17.970 --> 02:55:21.810
No body, no ballistics, yep, no blood, no blood splatter.
02:55:21.970 --> 02:55:22.130
Right.
02:55:22.370 --> 02:55:24.290
How does that work for in the court of law for you?
02:55:24.370 --> 02:55:24.450
Yeah.
02:55:24.930 --> 02:55:25.810
Charging someone, does that work?
02:55:26.050 --> 02:55:26.610
No, I know.
02:55:26.770 --> 02:55:29.810
If you took that to a court, would that just laugh you go, mate.
02:55:29.970 --> 02:55:30.370
Yeah, I know.
02:55:31.250 --> 02:55:33.090
What's what's the name of the the guy that he's killed?
02:55:33.250 --> 02:55:33.970
Oh, we don't know.
02:55:34.050 --> 02:55:35.250
Yeah, we can't couldn't find him.
02:55:35.490 --> 02:55:39.570
Well, you wouldn't even get to to get it through the local the local court.
02:55:39.650 --> 02:55:39.890
Yeah.
02:55:40.050 --> 02:55:42.770
You know, with well, we've got a case here or not.
02:55:43.010 --> 02:55:48.930
Um but example this 350 million, the federal government could have gone, you know what, here's 50 million for each state and territory.
02:55:49.010 --> 02:55:49.250
Yep.
02:55:49.410 --> 02:55:51.250
Use that for your police service.
02:55:51.490 --> 02:55:52.690
Yeah, absolutely.
02:55:52.930 --> 02:55:55.890
Wouldn't that be better money spent for the for the community?
02:55:56.610 --> 02:55:58.050
And that's that's just one scenario.
02:55:58.210 --> 02:56:00.770
There's multiple things the government spent money on.
02:56:00.850 --> 02:56:02.290
You're like, what are you doing?
02:56:02.370 --> 02:56:03.650
Yeah, what are you doing?
02:56:03.730 --> 02:56:03.890
Yeah.
02:56:04.130 --> 02:56:08.210
Could be using that for hospitals and schools, education, police, ambos.
02:56:08.370 --> 02:56:08.610
Yep.
02:56:08.770 --> 02:56:09.730
Let's pay our cops more.
02:56:09.810 --> 02:56:11.170
Let's pay, let's get more cops.
02:56:11.329 --> 02:56:11.570
Yeah.
02:56:11.810 --> 02:56:13.730
Don't get me started on on any of that.
02:56:13.970 --> 02:56:14.210
Yeah.
02:56:14.290 --> 02:56:18.210
Well, now we're getting cops from India and I think Queensland have trolled it as well.
02:56:18.530 --> 02:56:18.930
Oh, have they?
02:56:19.010 --> 02:56:20.770
Oh, they're bringing in yeah, the Five Eyes.
02:56:20.850 --> 02:56:22.050
So if you're Oh my god.
02:56:22.210 --> 02:56:26.370
Uh yeah, they I think they've there's been some successful ones I've seen and heard of.
02:56:26.450 --> 02:56:31.010
Uh they brought some cops from uh Canada, they'd help you transition from Canada.
02:56:31.490 --> 02:56:31.890
Fair.
02:56:32.050 --> 02:56:37.090
But you know, if you got I know um South Australia at one stage, they had a lot of ex-Pommies.
02:56:37.329 --> 02:56:37.970
Yeah, of course.
02:56:38.130 --> 02:56:40.130
I think I think it fits.
02:56:40.290 --> 02:56:42.130
I think WA was the same.
02:56:42.370 --> 02:56:44.530
Um, probably New South Wales.
02:56:44.610 --> 02:56:49.890
One of the things that I was always proud of that, you know, we re pretty well recruited from within New South Wales.
02:56:50.050 --> 02:56:50.370
Yeah.
02:56:50.530 --> 02:56:50.850
Yeah.
02:56:51.090 --> 02:56:52.930
Uh which I think's great for our community.
02:56:53.170 --> 02:56:54.050
Yeah, yeah, mate.
02:56:54.210 --> 02:57:01.570
Then it's funny because I I I do get a ton of messages, especially from young kids leaving school, and they're like, Oh, should I join the military or join the cops?
02:57:01.730 --> 02:57:03.410
I told them now, join the cops.
02:57:04.050 --> 02:57:04.930
I don't want to join them.
02:57:05.090 --> 02:57:06.370
Why would you want to join the military now?
02:57:06.450 --> 02:57:07.090
It's boring.
02:57:07.410 --> 02:57:08.690
There's no wars going on.
02:57:08.850 --> 02:57:10.930
I joined because I wanted to go to war.
02:57:11.090 --> 02:57:17.490
I wanted to go deploy, do my job, shoot a gun, do this, fight, do you know, do the infantry thing.
02:57:17.570 --> 02:57:18.850
Yeah, you can't do that no more.
02:57:19.010 --> 02:57:19.810
Join the cops.
02:57:19.970 --> 02:57:23.810
You get to do that, you know, you don't you're not getting into gunfights, or you might.
02:57:23.890 --> 02:57:24.130
Yeah, yeah.
02:57:24.370 --> 02:57:27.410
But at least you're getting out in the street, get to do a job, and guess what?
02:57:27.490 --> 02:57:28.930
You get to go to sleep in your bed every night.
02:57:29.090 --> 02:57:29.329
Yeah.
02:57:29.410 --> 02:57:29.490
Yeah.
02:57:30.130 --> 02:57:30.770
And it's good money.
02:57:30.850 --> 02:57:31.810
It's like it's not bad money.
02:57:32.050 --> 02:57:33.410
Some of these cops are in really good money.
02:57:33.570 --> 02:57:33.730
Yeah.
02:57:33.890 --> 02:57:38.690
I look, you know, the the way structure of policing's, you know, pretty good.
02:57:39.010 --> 02:57:44.050
Um, you know, there's always a a a call for it to be improved and I and I get that.
02:57:44.290 --> 02:57:51.890
Um but overall I I think it's a it's a pretty, pretty Well paid occupation.
02:57:52.210 --> 02:57:54.210
Get a couple of those user pay spots as well.
02:57:54.370 --> 02:57:55.329
A bit of overtime, mate.
02:57:55.570 --> 02:57:55.890
That's it.
02:57:55.970 --> 02:57:59.010
Go walk around the shopping centre for six hours and eat McDonald's.
02:58:00.130 --> 02:58:00.770
That's good money though.
02:58:01.010 --> 02:58:03.730
Well, they shouldn't be eating McDonald's if I've seen them.
02:58:04.290 --> 02:58:05.410
They deserve it, mate.
02:58:05.570 --> 02:58:06.050
They deserve it.
02:58:06.130 --> 02:58:07.170
And it's 50% for them.
02:58:08.210 --> 02:58:09.650
What I'm talking about is looking after their health.
02:58:09.970 --> 02:58:11.090
Mate, exactly right, mate.
02:58:11.170 --> 02:58:12.530
If you're out there, don't eat McDonald's.
02:58:12.610 --> 02:58:13.010
I do.
02:58:13.250 --> 02:58:14.050
But you know, you're right.
02:58:14.690 --> 02:58:15.490
You've stayed fit.
02:58:15.970 --> 02:58:17.170
Just let's quickly talk about that.
02:58:17.329 --> 02:58:19.010
You've stayed fit throughout your career.
02:58:19.490 --> 02:58:23.890
You know, before coming here this morning, you know, you're so what how old are you?
02:58:23.970 --> 02:58:25.170
Is this rude to ask?
02:58:26.770 --> 02:58:27.329
60 something?
02:58:27.570 --> 02:58:28.530
60 something, yeah.
02:58:28.610 --> 02:58:32.450
So you you know, but you're actively staying fit, and I love it.
02:58:32.530 --> 02:58:36.130
I love going to the gym, seeing an old like I'm getting old now.
02:58:36.210 --> 02:58:40.610
I'm 40, 42 this year, not old, old, but not your old.
02:58:41.010 --> 02:58:41.250
Thanks.
02:58:41.570 --> 02:58:50.290
But mate, I love getting to a gym and seeing, you know, a 50, 60-year-old and man just lifting weights, staying fit on the treaddy, just it it it it inspires me.
02:58:50.370 --> 02:58:54.930
Like I said, I'm like, fuck man, I want to be like that guy in 20 years' time.
02:58:55.090 --> 02:59:07.170
And uh for cops, you know, for you being uh an assisted commissioner and people seeing you at the gym and smashing in protein shakes, and people like fuck, that's that's the type of commissioner, you know, assistant commissioner I want to be.
02:59:07.329 --> 02:59:20.530
Yeah, well, I I you know, it was one of the reasons why another reason why I I pulled the pin in the end, because I wanted to, I guess, live a life that was was full of experiences.
02:59:20.690 --> 02:59:26.690
You know, so now in in retirement, you know, like you said, I I go to the gym a few times a week.
02:59:26.850 --> 02:59:34.450
Um, I'm playing golf two or three times a week, um, I surf two or three times a week, and then you throw in travel.
02:59:34.530 --> 02:59:39.570
So we're not too far off going over to Spain and Portugal and Croatia for a trip.
02:59:39.650 --> 02:59:41.010
So we're really looking forward to that.
02:59:41.090 --> 02:59:44.530
That was put off um when we when we went through COVID.
02:59:44.850 --> 02:59:55.650
So so life in general is is pretty good, but for me, I find it very, very hard to um I get my wife will say you're not relaxing.
02:59:55.810 --> 02:59:58.610
And I'll go, Well, there's plenty of time to relax when I'm dead.
02:59:58.770 --> 02:59:59.090
Yeah.
02:59:59.250 --> 03:00:00.050
You know what I mean?
03:00:00.210 --> 03:00:07.650
Like I I just want to squeeze, and my my cousin always says, I've never come across a a bloke that wants to squeeze every ounce of juice out of the leg.
03:00:08.050 --> 03:00:08.450
You gotta.
03:00:08.850 --> 03:00:09.970
And but that's what I'm like.
03:00:10.130 --> 03:00:11.170
You only get one shot at it.
03:00:11.410 --> 03:00:19.250
Yeah, yeah, and hopefully it it's a long life, but but um you know, you never know, but but hopefully, you know, I I can live a fulfilled life.
03:00:19.490 --> 03:00:21.970
And just quickly, what was it like at the ivory tower?
03:00:22.210 --> 03:00:24.050
Was it quite quite heavy up there?
03:00:24.290 --> 03:00:25.570
A lot of cake eaters?
03:00:25.810 --> 03:00:27.410
Uh there was a there was a few.
03:00:27.570 --> 03:00:28.930
There was there was a few.
03:00:29.170 --> 03:00:40.450
But um look for me, I when I see someone in that level, especially in the military, you know, we at our level, commander level, even within Aberdeen, everyone was fighting fit.
03:00:40.530 --> 03:00:52.610
Everyone wanted to be the best versions of themselves because when we had to go overseas and do the job, we knew the next person beside you was going to be fit and ready to roll and drag you out of the the gunfight if need be.
03:00:53.010 --> 03:00:58.210
That's how it should be for officers here in New South Wales, statewide, Australia-wide, nationwide.
03:00:58.450 --> 03:00:59.810
Yeah, I look worldwide.
03:01:00.130 --> 03:01:00.530
I agree.
03:01:00.610 --> 03:01:02.610
There's probably some people that wouldn't agree with this.
03:01:02.770 --> 03:01:03.010
Yeah.
03:01:03.170 --> 03:01:04.530
Um the big ones.
03:01:05.010 --> 03:01:05.810
The big fish.
03:01:06.130 --> 03:01:15.250
But I'm saying uh saying that out of the the the best of my and and genuineness of my heart, that I want to see them live a healthy life.
03:01:15.490 --> 03:01:15.810
Exactly.
03:01:15.970 --> 03:01:25.650
I don't want to see them fall over with PTSD and and be sucking their thumb crying in the corner in their in their room and their life's destroyed because they didn't look after the health.
03:01:25.730 --> 03:01:29.010
They didn't look, they didn't manage their life.
03:01:29.329 --> 03:01:40.770
And and you know, whatever you say about and whatever the rank and file will think about this, but they can't put the blame on the bosses all the time.
03:01:40.930 --> 03:01:44.050
They need to take the responsibility for themselves.
03:01:44.690 --> 03:01:47.650
You know, if they don't do it for themselves, no other bastard will.
03:01:47.810 --> 03:01:49.329
That's the reality of it.
03:01:49.570 --> 03:01:54.850
So I'd encourage them to always take a take a step back, have a look at your lifestyle now.
03:01:55.090 --> 03:01:56.850
Where can you make improvements?
03:01:57.090 --> 03:02:03.410
Um, and it's all about living a healthy, healthy life, um, you know, full of enjoyment.
03:02:03.570 --> 03:02:17.490
And while you're at work, you know, you're you're enjoying your energy at work, you're motivated, and you're doing your best, and and you're, you know, you can share some stories and laughs with with your offsider in the in the truck or in the detective vehicle or what whatever it may be.
03:02:17.730 --> 03:02:18.210
That's it.
03:02:18.370 --> 03:02:18.850
That's it.
03:02:18.930 --> 03:02:23.329
And like you said, fitness with PTSD, it's it comes twofold.
03:02:23.410 --> 03:02:34.290
It's so good for the endorphins and releasing just pressure and it is an escape from the real world sometimes, getting to the gym, putting your headphones on, listening to a bit of music and just lifting weights, get moving.
03:02:34.930 --> 03:02:47.970
And for a police officer, you especially a GD, your first role is to obviously arrest people and you know get into scuffles, and you've got to be fit and strong to deal with that type of stuff and run down these criminals.
03:02:48.210 --> 03:02:48.610
Yeah, yeah.
03:02:48.770 --> 03:02:50.690
The amount of back injuries you know that occurred.
03:02:50.850 --> 03:03:01.490
Of course, yeah, because you're grabbing hold of people in you know poor positions and different things, or you're chasing someone and you can twist your ankle, knee, whatever, quite easily, or or or do a shoulder.
03:03:01.730 --> 03:03:07.250
Like it's it's a it's a man on man or person on person, you know, engagement.
03:03:07.490 --> 03:03:07.730
Of course.
03:03:07.970 --> 03:03:08.290
Quite often.
03:03:08.530 --> 03:03:08.690
Of course.
03:03:08.850 --> 03:03:10.370
And that's and it can turn sour.
03:03:10.450 --> 03:03:10.770
Yeah.
03:03:11.250 --> 03:03:17.329
So you've got to be ready, gotta be ready, especially especially if you're living down in Melbourne with African gangs kicking down your doors.
03:03:17.570 --> 03:03:18.930
Oh, Jesus Christ.
03:03:19.010 --> 03:03:19.570
They've lost it.
03:03:19.810 --> 03:03:20.690
What's going on down there, mate?
03:03:20.850 --> 03:03:21.570
They've lost it.
03:03:21.730 --> 03:03:23.730
That's yeah, they've got to sort that out.
03:03:23.810 --> 03:03:27.490
Like again, you're you've you've sat in that ivory tower.
03:03:27.650 --> 03:03:33.810
How does it go when you you know there's all the assistant commissioners sitting around a desk with the deputy going, Oh, you know what?
03:03:33.970 --> 03:03:36.850
I think uh machete bins, they're a really good idea.
03:03:37.410 --> 03:03:39.650
Everyone put their hands up, and everyone puts their hands up.
03:03:39.730 --> 03:03:43.329
Like surely there's someone there going, What are you fucking idiots thinking?
03:03:43.490 --> 03:03:46.050
Like, who which one of you dickheads has come up with this?
03:03:46.210 --> 03:03:54.530
Yeah, look, I'd thankfully, you know, I I can say this with hand on heart, that there was always some some good discussions.
03:03:54.770 --> 03:04:06.850
There wasn't you know, if the police commissioner, whoever that may have been at the time, said we're going to do A, if everyone, if if people disagreed, they'd say, you know, excuse me, can can we just discuss this a bit further?
03:04:07.010 --> 03:04:07.329
Yeah.
03:04:07.570 --> 03:04:10.290
You know, I'm concerned about you know, A, B, and C.
03:04:11.170 --> 03:04:15.810
Um did it ever get rowdy like No, no, there was all there was always great respect.
03:04:15.970 --> 03:04:20.450
There's always always great respect there whenever I was in the in the 50 cuffs.
03:04:20.690 --> 03:04:21.010
No.
03:04:21.650 --> 03:04:28.690
No, no, I'm sure Nick and Kath wanted to to pull each other's head off at times, but but they were always very professional.
03:04:28.850 --> 03:04:29.570
Yeah, that's to be honest.
03:04:29.730 --> 03:04:29.970
That's great.
03:04:30.130 --> 03:04:30.930
They were good people.
03:04:31.090 --> 03:04:31.730
Yeah.
03:04:33.650 --> 03:04:35.010
Mate, all right.
03:04:35.170 --> 03:04:46.770
Well I guess, mate, we've hit the you know, there's only so much you can fit into a couple hour podcast, 40 years of policing, mate, and you're at the end of it, you know, you've been out five, six years now.
03:04:46.930 --> 03:04:47.970
How are you going with it?
03:04:48.130 --> 03:04:51.250
It's it's a long time to be institutionalized.
03:04:51.730 --> 03:04:55.970
Like you said, now your wife says, just take a take a breather, but you're not.
03:04:56.290 --> 03:04:57.170
No, I know.
03:04:57.410 --> 03:04:57.810
I know.
03:04:57.890 --> 03:05:12.210
I wish I could, and that's probably uh, you know, whether it's uh an aftermath of PTSD, I'm not I'm not quite sure, but um I I've got to admit I don't watch a great deal of news because it frustrates the hell out of me at times.
03:05:12.450 --> 03:05:17.410
Um, you know, the the way the way Sydney media in particular report.
03:05:17.970 --> 03:05:29.250
Um you know, I like I said, I've got a a firm dislike of politicians that want to stand up and talk about policing uh in regards to operational issues.
03:05:29.410 --> 03:05:34.050
I I think get it get out of the lane and get in your own lane where you should stay.
03:05:34.290 --> 03:05:45.890
Um but you know, knowing that, you know, I I I guess I'm very still very, very proud to, you know, to be, you know, referring to New South Wales Police.
03:05:46.050 --> 03:05:49.250
It was a great organization, still is a great organization.
03:05:49.490 --> 03:05:52.530
Um the men and women uh do a fantastic job.
03:05:52.690 --> 03:05:54.690
They still do a fantastic job.
03:05:54.850 --> 03:05:59.890
I feel for them because you know, social media, everyone's got a camera these days.
03:06:00.290 --> 03:06:07.810
Um you know, it's it's uh there's always some oversight body that wants to jump on you.
03:06:08.050 --> 03:06:20.130
Um I which just brings my memory to a a green a green politician up the North Coast, I think, that wanted to heavily criticize local police over an issue just recently.
03:06:20.210 --> 03:06:22.290
I just David Shoebridge?
03:06:22.450 --> 03:06:24.770
No, it wasn't Shoebridge, it was a female He's a dickhead.
03:06:25.010 --> 03:06:26.930
Uh but totally, totally.
03:06:27.490 --> 03:06:32.850
But uh this female um min uh she wasn't a minister, she was a green politician.
03:06:33.010 --> 03:06:33.490
Yeah.
03:06:33.730 --> 03:06:36.370
And she was criticizing, you know, the police.
03:06:36.530 --> 03:06:44.290
I might have been the the guy who chest hit him with the chest push and should be investigated, and you know what?
03:06:44.930 --> 03:06:51.650
Just worry about the the local issues, about you know, our cost of living and everything else, and and stay out of policing.
03:06:51.810 --> 03:06:52.130
Yeah.
03:06:52.370 --> 03:06:53.329
It'll sort itself out.
03:06:53.570 --> 03:06:54.610
Well, that's the whole point.
03:06:54.850 --> 03:07:01.170
It's don't don't don't comment on something you've only just seen on social media after it's like a 20-second clip.
03:07:01.329 --> 03:07:01.650
Yeah.
03:07:01.890 --> 03:07:07.170
Meanwhile, you've missed I I heard the next day I mate got pinched for breaching an AVO.
03:07:07.410 --> 03:07:08.290
Yeah, that's right.
03:07:08.530 --> 03:07:10.850
And that that wasn't reported, was it, by anyone?
03:07:11.170 --> 03:07:11.329
No.
03:07:11.490 --> 03:07:17.410
No, that's only that, and then obviously where he'd come from, there was multiple adversaries, he's been charged multiple times with multiple offences.
03:07:17.570 --> 03:07:19.329
Like he's not an outstanding citizen.
03:07:19.410 --> 03:07:19.490
No.
03:07:19.650 --> 03:07:21.170
They didn't go around pushing anyone.
03:07:21.410 --> 03:07:22.690
Yeah, that's that's exactly right.
03:07:22.850 --> 03:07:25.410
And that's what the general public don't don't hear enough of.
03:07:25.570 --> 03:07:26.370
Well, you know what?
03:07:26.450 --> 03:07:28.050
This is why it occurred.
03:07:29.329 --> 03:07:35.170
Let let let the let the police investigate it and do their thing, and yeah, they should come out and go, you know what, fuck you're all.
03:07:35.410 --> 03:07:35.890
Yeah.
03:07:36.210 --> 03:07:52.290
But you know, the last thing I'd I'd I'd I'd say, Matt, is like if there's any police officer out there that that needed assistance um in terms of their own career, in terms of their own health and well-being, that that wanted to get in touch, um, I'd encourage them.
03:07:52.370 --> 03:07:54.210
You know, I'd I'd always be there for them.
03:07:54.370 --> 03:07:59.570
It's easy to pick up a phone or you know, deal with email or or go and have a coffee.
03:07:59.810 --> 03:08:00.610
Yeah, yeah, mate.
03:08:00.770 --> 03:08:02.850
Uh I'd make myself available.
03:08:03.010 --> 03:08:06.850
If anyone's out there, reach out to me and then I'll I'll I can pass that on to uh Max maybe.
03:08:06.930 --> 03:08:09.410
But before we go, obviously a couple of final questions here.
03:08:10.770 --> 03:08:15.810
Uh mate, as I said, 40 years in the cops, mate, it's it's just crazy.
03:08:16.050 --> 03:08:27.650
It's a long time to be in such a a role where you said like the police uh, you know, at at any time when something happens, everyone just goes, let's just call the police.
03:08:27.970 --> 03:08:30.610
It could be a house fire, they go, call the police.
03:08:30.770 --> 03:08:36.930
And it's one of those crazy professions where the GDs, you know, you look at the GD, they roll past a house fire, they deal with it.
03:08:37.010 --> 03:08:39.730
They roll past a person having a heart attack, they deal with it.
03:08:39.890 --> 03:08:46.450
Unlike Dambos and Fieries, they stick to their professions, whereas the cops become this universal for everything.
03:08:46.610 --> 03:08:48.530
Like you said, noise complaint, call the police.
03:08:48.690 --> 03:08:49.090
Yep.
03:08:49.250 --> 03:08:50.690
Let's go, yeah, everything.
03:08:50.850 --> 03:08:57.170
So, mate's um crazy 40-year job, uh 40-year career in the New South Wales police.
03:08:57.250 --> 03:08:59.170
But a couple of final questions before we end here.
03:08:59.410 --> 03:09:07.890
Mate, first question: what advice can you give to people just to keep on keeping on, complete any goal they set their mind to and to crush it in life?
03:09:08.450 --> 03:09:09.170
Oh, geez.
03:09:09.410 --> 03:09:12.450
Maybe aim this at some of those younger cops too.
03:09:12.610 --> 03:09:16.370
Give them a bit of words of advice of a seasoned veteran.
03:09:17.410 --> 03:09:25.090
Well, to to start with, and I think we've we've touched on it, um, looking after your own health is is probably the number one priority.
03:09:25.410 --> 03:09:36.690
Um it's so important to remain physically fit, um, which will benefit your own body, but also benefit more importantly, your own mind and how you handle the stresses of policing.
03:09:36.850 --> 03:09:50.530
Um that um as young police, uh, the general community um have you know have great admiration for the for the role that they do on a day-to-day basis.
03:09:50.690 --> 03:09:51.570
They don't hear it.
03:09:51.810 --> 03:09:57.329
They don't hear it because um people can't sort of you know share their their views.
03:09:57.650 --> 03:10:10.530
But certainly as I go around and people you know bump into me and and have a chat about different things, they always have speak highly of their police, uh, great admiration, great courage shown by police, etc.
03:10:11.250 --> 03:10:18.130
You're going to, as young police, uh, come across times when you know things will be tough.
03:10:18.370 --> 03:10:26.610
Um, whether that's a work-related issue, whether it's uh an issue um of conflict within the workplace with with others.
03:10:26.770 --> 03:10:32.290
Um that if you're true and honest to yourself, uh you will get through it.
03:10:32.450 --> 03:10:35.570
Um have the courage and the fortitude to work through it.
03:10:35.730 --> 03:10:39.010
Don't just throw the towel in and and take the easy option.
03:10:39.250 --> 03:10:40.370
It is it is tough.
03:10:40.530 --> 03:10:42.690
Sometimes you've got to make tough decisions.
03:10:42.930 --> 03:10:49.329
Um it occurred to it's occurred to me in in my career, I've had to deal with some some horrible situations.
03:10:49.650 --> 03:10:52.050
Um but made many mistakes?
03:10:52.370 --> 03:10:53.090
Made a few.
03:10:53.650 --> 03:10:55.250
You know, made a f made a few.
03:10:55.410 --> 03:10:57.730
Um there's no two ways about it.
03:10:57.810 --> 03:11:03.090
But hopefully the majority of my decisions were were good, honest decisions.
03:11:03.250 --> 03:11:07.329
Um operate with integrity, um, stick to your values.
03:11:07.570 --> 03:11:11.890
You know, you you've probably been brought up by your mum and dad with really good values.
03:11:12.210 --> 03:11:15.810
Don't ever hand those to anyone else to do the wrong thing.
03:11:16.050 --> 03:11:23.730
Um, you know, carry yourself with with great pride and admiration because you know that's what the general community deserve.
03:11:23.890 --> 03:11:26.450
They deserve good, honest, toiling cops.
03:11:26.690 --> 03:11:29.329
Um, so never never change that path.
03:11:30.130 --> 03:11:31.010
Exactly right, mate.
03:11:31.090 --> 03:11:33.570
So I think uh integrity is a big one.
03:11:34.930 --> 03:11:38.530
Like I said, with the mistakes, you know, you make a mistake, take it on the chin.
03:11:38.690 --> 03:11:43.250
Yep, move forward, figure out what went wrong, move forward, be better next time.
03:11:43.410 --> 03:11:44.290
It's it's that simple.
03:11:44.370 --> 03:11:45.970
But if you make a mistake, put your hand up.
03:11:46.290 --> 03:11:47.010
I fucked up.
03:11:47.090 --> 03:11:48.770
Yeah, one of the biggest things in the military.
03:11:48.850 --> 03:11:53.329
If we fucked up, yeah, I fucked up multiple scenarios, got charged multiple times.
03:11:53.410 --> 03:11:55.570
Yeah, but I went every time I'm like, yeah, boss, that was me.
03:11:55.650 --> 03:11:56.370
Yeah, yeah, I did.
03:11:56.530 --> 03:11:59.170
I let the fire stinning your software and destroyed that TV.
03:11:59.250 --> 03:11:59.730
That wasn't me.
03:11:59.810 --> 03:12:04.210
Yeah, yes, I was heavily intoxicated in Melbourne and banned from Melbourne for a little while.
03:12:04.530 --> 03:12:05.090
Oh dear.
03:12:05.410 --> 03:12:18.450
But I I think there's there's one other point, Matt, I just wanted to offer to um those men and women that are coming up to senior commission officer ranks, and that is to look after your men and women.
03:12:18.530 --> 03:12:32.450
And I mean genuinely look after them, not pay them lip service, because a lot of young police all they see is this sort of fighting by s by the the rank and file to try and get promoted.
03:12:32.530 --> 03:12:34.690
They do things to try and get promoted.
03:12:34.850 --> 03:12:39.970
Promotion will come if you're a good, honest toiling cop and you work hard and you're doing your best.
03:12:40.690 --> 03:12:51.650
But don't ever, you know, basically uh cut off your your men and women and and forget about um what they provide because you're more interested in getting promoted.
03:12:51.890 --> 03:12:52.530
It will come.
03:12:52.770 --> 03:12:53.810
It will get yeah, exactly.
03:12:54.930 --> 03:12:55.970
If you deserve it, it will come.
03:12:56.370 --> 03:12:56.690
That's it.
03:12:56.770 --> 03:12:57.650
Don't forget where you come from.
03:12:57.810 --> 03:12:58.290
Yeah, that's right.
03:12:58.770 --> 03:12:59.570
Started on the truck.
03:12:59.730 --> 03:13:00.050
Yeah.
03:13:00.290 --> 03:13:03.090
It was always a great, you know, uh view of mine.
03:13:03.170 --> 03:13:14.290
I used to always reflect, you know, even as a boss, if when sometimes if I made a decision, I'd think, if I was back as a constable, what would I want to see from my boss?
03:13:14.530 --> 03:13:22.130
And I used to always reflect on on you know what I would want as a as a young constable.
03:13:22.370 --> 03:13:25.970
Was man back in the earlier days I worked with some shockers.
03:13:26.130 --> 03:13:26.530
Yeah.
03:13:26.770 --> 03:13:29.570
And and back then you never saw your bosses.
03:13:29.810 --> 03:13:30.690
That was another thing.
03:13:30.850 --> 03:13:33.890
You never saw an inspector or a or a superintendent.
03:13:34.130 --> 03:13:37.170
They were off on the golf course or you know, wherever they were.
03:13:37.410 --> 03:13:38.450
You never saw them.
03:13:38.530 --> 03:13:39.170
Yeah.
03:13:39.650 --> 03:13:42.290
Where you know your sergeants are so important.
03:13:42.610 --> 03:13:46.050
Um, and now of course your your inspectors are so important.
03:13:46.930 --> 03:13:51.250
But give give due to your rank and file and look after them.
03:13:51.650 --> 03:13:51.890
That's it.
03:13:51.970 --> 03:13:54.210
And stand up, stand up for 'em when it when it's required.
03:13:54.370 --> 03:13:55.970
Grow some balls, stand up for 'em.
03:13:56.610 --> 03:13:58.050
Mate uh seg question.
03:13:58.290 --> 03:13:59.730
What scares you most in life?
03:14:00.210 --> 03:14:01.650
What are you most afraid of?
03:14:03.490 --> 03:14:04.050
Dying?
03:14:04.210 --> 03:14:04.770
Yeah.
03:14:05.010 --> 03:14:16.210
Um, I guess you know that just comes into into play as you get older, but I guess um what what um what am I most scared of?
03:14:17.570 --> 03:14:24.210
I I'm thinking to to lack purpose in life.
03:14:25.410 --> 03:14:26.530
I can see that.
03:14:26.850 --> 03:14:27.090
Yeah.
03:14:27.570 --> 03:14:29.730
Well, you're just moving still, becoming your wife.
03:14:29.890 --> 03:14:30.050
Yeah.
03:14:30.290 --> 03:14:31.250
Just relax, mate.
03:14:31.329 --> 03:14:32.770
Just have a sit on the catch.
03:14:32.850 --> 03:14:33.970
I haven't got time to sit on the couch.
03:14:34.370 --> 03:14:34.530
Yeah.
03:14:34.610 --> 03:14:36.290
Having purpose is so important.
03:14:36.610 --> 03:14:37.650
100% it is.
03:14:38.210 --> 03:14:39.890
Find purpose in whatever.
03:14:40.050 --> 03:14:40.130
Yeah.
03:14:40.370 --> 03:14:43.970
Outside of you, especially, I guess this rolls on to the you know, young cops out there.
03:14:44.130 --> 03:14:53.490
Just just because you're a cop doesn't mean you can't get into collecting Pokemon cards or whatever, just to get your mind actually, I'm speaking of Pokemon cards, Mitch Ashworth.
03:14:53.650 --> 03:14:55.410
Yeah, he's a Pokemon collector.
03:14:55.730 --> 03:14:57.490
Don't don't tell me that about Mitch.
03:14:58.050 --> 03:14:58.770
But you know what I mean?
03:14:58.850 --> 03:15:00.210
Like it's just an an offshoot.
03:15:00.290 --> 03:15:05.810
Go play golf, get get stuck into something else because it just gives you purpose and gives you an outlet as well.
03:15:06.050 --> 03:15:07.010
Yeah, that's right.
03:15:07.170 --> 03:15:08.770
There there's other interests, you know.
03:15:09.010 --> 03:15:16.290
That's actually it's a really good point, Matt, that um making sure that you maintain other interests outside of policing.
03:15:16.610 --> 03:15:20.610
Because again, that that just helps you manage your mental health in particular.
03:15:21.010 --> 03:15:22.610
Hunting, fishing, whatever you're into.
03:15:22.850 --> 03:15:23.650
And stay social.
03:15:23.890 --> 03:15:24.530
That's it.
03:15:24.770 --> 03:15:25.250
Yep.
03:15:25.810 --> 03:15:26.610
Yeah, exactly right.
03:15:26.770 --> 03:15:30.210
Stay social, hang around your friends, yeah, be there for your friends.
03:15:31.010 --> 03:15:34.370
Reach out to your friends too, especially if you're your own cop out there and you know there's another cop.
03:15:35.010 --> 03:15:40.610
Like you said, maybe there'd be times where you've dealt with a domestic and then you've gone to a deliver a death message.
03:15:40.690 --> 03:15:43.250
Yeah, if you're uh a cop back at the station, just check in.
03:15:43.410 --> 03:15:46.290
Check in with that person that's just gone, that's done something.
03:15:47.650 --> 03:15:49.650
Like the bus crash, you know, like there's multiple.
03:15:49.890 --> 03:16:04.450
They're finally, I think I saw a couple of weeks ago, they've all been they were all issued medals and a bit of recognition because it's I heard, you know, and I know a couple of those officers that responded and emergency uh response that responded to it, and it was traumatic.
03:16:04.530 --> 03:16:08.290
Like it's just it's it's gut-wrenching to see something like that happen.
03:16:08.530 --> 03:16:13.010
Yeah, and then uh it's even worse under the under the circumstances, you know.
03:16:13.410 --> 03:16:13.970
A wedding.
03:16:14.370 --> 03:16:15.650
It should have been everyone's happiest day.
03:16:16.050 --> 03:16:17.329
Joy, yeah.
03:16:17.570 --> 03:16:19.410
It's just just dreadful, isn't it?
03:16:19.490 --> 03:16:25.570
That's the part of life you just you just wonder at times, like how how do you draw the card?
03:16:25.730 --> 03:16:27.010
Yeah, yeah, that's it.
03:16:27.170 --> 03:16:28.050
That's it.
03:16:28.370 --> 03:16:31.810
Uh mate, third question tell us something about you that people don't know.
03:16:32.050 --> 03:16:33.490
Guilty obsession.
03:16:34.610 --> 03:16:35.329
Is it food?
03:16:35.410 --> 03:16:39.170
You know, I know you're a fitness freak like me, but I love a zinger burger.
03:16:39.329 --> 03:16:40.130
Tell you what.
03:16:40.930 --> 03:16:41.890
Tell you what.
03:16:42.690 --> 03:16:45.810
Um if I was gonna rob anything, it'd be a KFC.
03:16:46.370 --> 03:16:48.530
That's a that's a yeah.
03:16:48.610 --> 03:16:51.490
I'm sure your wife would be going, Oh, this is what he does.
03:16:51.650 --> 03:16:52.450
It's disgusting.
03:16:52.610 --> 03:16:54.450
He picks his nose and eats it.
03:16:55.490 --> 03:17:00.370
I know, I I look, I'd I I'd I'm a fanatic, you know, surfer and golfer.
03:17:00.610 --> 03:17:00.930
Oh yeah.
03:17:01.010 --> 03:17:01.970
Yeah, I just love it.
03:17:02.290 --> 03:17:03.410
Watch it on TV.
03:17:03.490 --> 03:17:03.810
Yeah, yeah.
03:17:04.050 --> 03:17:04.610
Yeah, yeah.
03:17:04.690 --> 03:17:11.250
My wife will complain because you know, I just watched the Scottish Open, the British Open's this week.
03:17:11.490 --> 03:17:13.890
So not only do I play it, I practice it.
03:17:14.050 --> 03:17:14.370
At home.
03:17:14.530 --> 03:17:15.410
I watch it.
03:17:15.730 --> 03:17:18.610
I just yeah, it's it's just fabulous.
03:17:18.770 --> 03:17:25.810
And I I've met some some terrific people who uh you know form part of the the club that I'm at.
03:17:26.130 --> 03:17:28.770
Um and none of them are police.
03:17:29.090 --> 03:17:39.410
You know, they they come from all walks walks of life, you know, whether it's you know, the mining industry, financial institutions, um, transport, whatever it may be, you know.
03:17:39.810 --> 03:17:43.650
It's uh it's really nice to to play golf and and and chat with people.
03:17:45.170 --> 03:17:45.410
Yeah, yeah.
03:17:45.570 --> 03:17:46.210
It's not Muri.
03:17:47.410 --> 03:17:48.290
They come out there, mate.
03:17:48.530 --> 03:17:49.090
Or Merryweather.
03:17:49.250 --> 03:17:50.930
That's where the crims play out there, Muri.
03:17:52.210 --> 03:17:53.410
Yeah, Newcastle.
03:17:53.570 --> 03:17:53.890
Yeah.
03:17:54.450 --> 03:17:56.210
Yeah, no, it's it's fantastic.
03:17:56.450 --> 03:17:57.570
Yeah, yeah, nice, mate.
03:17:57.650 --> 03:18:01.570
Yeah, so it's uh yeah, watching plenty how many golf clubs you got now?
03:18:01.810 --> 03:18:02.690
You got a few sets?
03:18:03.010 --> 03:18:04.050
No, I've only got the one set.
03:18:04.610 --> 03:18:05.010
What do you got?
03:18:05.730 --> 03:18:07.490
Uh what am I off in at the moment?
03:18:07.650 --> 03:18:08.610
Uh seven.
03:18:08.850 --> 03:18:10.370
Oh, tell you all right.
03:18:10.530 --> 03:18:12.530
So yeah, blown out a bit actually.
03:18:12.690 --> 03:18:13.090
Yeah.
03:18:13.329 --> 03:18:15.890
Well, Newcastle's going under major renovations.
03:18:15.970 --> 03:18:18.290
It'll be a magnificent club in the next couple of years.
03:18:18.370 --> 03:18:18.850
Yep.
03:18:19.170 --> 03:18:22.850
Um, you know, people want to play there from from everywhere.
03:18:23.090 --> 03:18:23.250
Yeah.
03:18:23.570 --> 03:18:25.170
Are you walking or you got golf cart?
03:18:25.329 --> 03:18:26.370
No, no, I always walk.
03:18:26.450 --> 03:18:26.690
Do you?
03:18:26.930 --> 03:18:27.490
You're kidding me?
03:18:27.810 --> 03:18:28.850
Yeah, no, I don't walk.
03:18:29.010 --> 03:18:29.650
No, no, no.
03:18:29.730 --> 03:18:32.530
Uh you've got to walk, but I carry beers.
03:18:32.770 --> 03:18:33.250
No, no, no.
03:18:33.410 --> 03:18:36.850
So you and I can't play you and I can't play because I do not drink on the course.
03:18:37.090 --> 03:18:37.329
Yeah, yeah.
03:18:38.930 --> 03:18:39.810
I've got to have one or two.
03:18:39.970 --> 03:18:40.530
Yeah, no.
03:18:40.850 --> 03:18:41.090
No.
03:18:41.490 --> 03:18:42.450
I play better.
03:18:43.090 --> 03:18:44.450
I'll I'll have a sports drink.
03:18:45.650 --> 03:18:45.890
Yeah.
03:18:46.130 --> 03:18:48.050
No, I I do walk sometimes.
03:18:48.450 --> 03:18:49.410
It just depends.
03:18:49.970 --> 03:18:52.050
No, I that's I enjoy walking.
03:18:52.210 --> 03:18:52.770
Yeah.
03:18:53.090 --> 03:18:55.490
Mate, I've got uh Kokoda coming up next year.
03:18:55.810 --> 03:18:57.410
Oh, let me tell you about Kokoda.
03:18:57.650 --> 03:19:01.890
So I did Kokoda back in 2015.
03:19:02.050 --> 03:19:07.490
It was the hundred year of the Anzac celebration, and also it was 10 years of police legacy.
03:19:07.730 --> 03:19:11.170
Um, I went on the trek under a company.
03:19:12.130 --> 03:19:15.490
Aidan Grimes was the the trek master.
03:19:15.890 --> 03:19:27.329
Um oh god, I I I sorry Aiden for forgetting your company, but it was one of the most magnificent things that that I that I've ever done.
03:19:27.410 --> 03:19:35.570
Um and going with other police and police legatees, so it was all about police legatees, um, making sure that they were looked after.
03:19:35.730 --> 03:19:42.290
And we did it from Kokoda back to Owers Corner um in April, so it coincided.
03:19:42.450 --> 03:19:47.970
So when we finished the next morning, we were at the Anzac ceremony at Bo Bomana Cemetery.
03:19:49.329 --> 03:19:53.890
Um so at that time of the year up at uh up PNG, she's wet.
03:19:54.050 --> 03:19:54.450
Yeah.
03:19:54.850 --> 03:19:57.010
We were just from day one, we were wet.
03:19:57.090 --> 03:19:58.290
We were never dry.
03:19:58.690 --> 03:20:00.690
But you know, and we carried our own packs.
03:20:00.850 --> 03:20:01.410
Oh, did you?
03:20:01.570 --> 03:20:02.050
Oh yeah.
03:20:02.850 --> 03:20:06.450
Well, to me it was about the admiration of the diggers.
03:20:08.130 --> 03:20:08.770
Oh yeah.
03:20:09.010 --> 03:20:12.850
And Aiden provides um Meanwhile fighting the Japs at the same time.
03:20:13.010 --> 03:20:13.650
I know.
03:20:14.290 --> 03:20:22.530
The the the overview that he is able to provide, because he's done it, I think he's up to about 130 crossings.
03:20:22.770 --> 03:20:23.090
Yep.
03:20:23.329 --> 03:20:23.730
Wow.
03:20:23.970 --> 03:20:31.570
But if anyone's listening, actually for for young police or police in general, if you haven't done it, um, do it.
03:20:31.890 --> 03:20:35.650
Because and again, it's so stimulating for your mental health.
03:20:36.050 --> 03:20:36.770
Ground you as well.
03:20:37.010 --> 03:20:37.810
It grounds you.
03:20:37.970 --> 03:20:41.090
Um, understanding our diggers, what they fought for.
03:20:41.490 --> 03:20:43.329
Um, fantastic experience.
03:20:43.570 --> 03:20:44.050
That's it.
03:20:44.210 --> 03:20:45.170
And you know what?
03:20:45.410 --> 03:20:46.690
You lose a lot of weight.
03:20:46.850 --> 03:20:47.970
Yeah, that's yeah.
03:20:48.210 --> 03:20:49.730
I lost nine kilo when I did.
03:20:50.130 --> 03:20:50.210
Yeah.
03:20:50.450 --> 03:20:52.530
Wow, that's what I'm not looking forward to.
03:20:53.490 --> 03:20:56.610
If KFC's listening, can you chop her in some zingers?
03:20:56.770 --> 03:20:57.570
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:20:57.730 --> 03:20:59.410
But Kakoda, you'll you'll love it.
03:20:59.570 --> 03:21:00.850
I'm gonna I'm gonna really enjoy it.
03:21:00.930 --> 03:21:02.130
Uh, I'm gonna yeah.
03:21:02.370 --> 03:21:08.690
My um my great uncle uh died there a couple of years after the the main effort, but uh he did die there.
03:21:08.930 --> 03:21:11.810
Um but yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to it.
03:21:11.890 --> 03:21:15.650
I know there's a couple of current cops that are coming on since we put it out on social media.
03:21:15.730 --> 03:21:23.810
There's been a few reach out, but if you're out there listening, you want to come on it, reach out uh to Kakoda Crossing and Pillars of Pilgrims.
03:21:23.890 --> 03:21:28.690
They'll um get involved because it's yeah, it's a fantastic opportunity.
03:21:28.850 --> 03:21:30.130
I'm in training now, actually, on the stepper.
03:21:30.290 --> 03:21:31.329
I was on the stepper yesterday.
03:21:31.810 --> 03:21:34.050
Tell you what, I wanted to spew the stepper.
03:21:34.370 --> 03:21:34.690
Yeah.
03:21:35.010 --> 03:21:42.770
Feeding them how embarrassing it is actually thinking about it now, it is quite embarrassing.
03:21:43.010 --> 03:21:43.890
You know where I trained?
03:21:43.970 --> 03:21:53.810
Well, because I was living at Cremorne at the time, and um we trained down at what's the near Mossman, it's the Balmoral Burn, I think.
03:21:53.970 --> 03:21:59.090
Like the hill at the steep hill that that that runs down to the ocean.
03:21:59.329 --> 03:22:06.210
We we walked up and down that hill so many times, and so what we did was with our backpacks we we put dog kibble.
03:22:06.450 --> 03:22:07.090
Yeah.
03:22:07.329 --> 03:22:15.570
But you know, bags of dog kibble, so we were up to about 15 or 20 kilograms of weight and and threw that in the backpack just to walk up and down, up.
03:22:15.970 --> 03:22:17.490
Yeah, it's a good 100 K's, isn't it?
03:22:17.810 --> 03:22:18.530
Unless there's nothing flat.
03:22:18.690 --> 03:22:18.930
That's it.
03:22:19.650 --> 03:22:20.130
It's all up and down.
03:22:20.290 --> 03:22:20.770
That's it, yeah.
03:22:20.850 --> 03:22:21.490
Fire, mate.
03:22:21.570 --> 03:22:23.570
I've last time I did about a hundred K's.
03:22:23.650 --> 03:22:27.810
I was in the army and I I was young, fit, and handsome back then.
03:22:30.450 --> 03:22:34.530
Yeah, I've just I'm full of cheeseburgers and oh god, zinger burgers, mate.
03:22:34.770 --> 03:22:37.490
Uh fourth question, favorite movie TV show?
03:22:37.730 --> 03:22:40.690
When you got in, mate, 1980s are talking Police Academy.
03:22:40.770 --> 03:22:41.810
There's no no no.
03:22:42.290 --> 03:22:48.130
Two favourite movies, and I watch generally I watch um them both once a year is Gladiator.
03:22:48.370 --> 03:22:50.290
Oh yeah, the first Gladiator.
03:22:50.610 --> 03:22:51.650
Yeah, the second one's terrible.
03:22:51.730 --> 03:22:53.650
Yeah, yeah, with uh with Russell Crowe.
03:22:53.730 --> 03:22:55.890
Yeah, he's just such a powerful realm.
03:22:56.450 --> 03:23:01.650
And of course, you know, Sam Neal and Run Hunt for Red October, yeah, God rest your soul.
03:23:01.730 --> 03:23:02.770
Yeah, just like that was away.
03:23:02.930 --> 03:23:03.890
Yeah, that was just a shock.
03:23:04.050 --> 03:23:06.450
And that he was he was a favourite actor, yeah, mate.
03:23:06.530 --> 03:23:06.930
Yeah, odd.
03:23:07.010 --> 03:23:09.650
Yeah, Jurassic Park, yeah, classics were all there, yeah.
03:23:09.810 --> 03:23:11.410
So yeah, they're my two favourite movies.
03:23:11.570 --> 03:23:11.810
Is it?
03:23:11.890 --> 03:23:12.370
Yeah, right.
03:23:12.690 --> 03:23:16.770
What about um like a cop one?
03:23:17.570 --> 03:23:20.050
I don't watch cop cop ones to be to be honest.
03:23:20.290 --> 03:23:21.730
No, no, sorry.
03:23:21.890 --> 03:23:24.450
What I love is the bad boys series, yeah.
03:23:24.930 --> 03:23:25.810
They are classic.
03:23:25.970 --> 03:23:28.690
Yeah, they all three were really good movies.
03:23:28.770 --> 03:23:33.010
Uh even the last one like that was yeah 20 years after the fact, and yeah, they still did really good.
03:23:33.250 --> 03:23:36.210
Bit chubby, but but older, heart attacks.
03:23:36.370 --> 03:23:37.650
They still got away with it, yeah.
03:23:37.810 --> 03:23:39.170
But yeah, the bad boys series.
03:23:39.250 --> 03:23:41.730
I'd I love what's the type of cop I'd be.
03:23:41.810 --> 03:23:45.730
Yeah that's probably that's the reason why I've never been a cop and never will be a cop.
03:23:46.530 --> 03:23:48.050
Bad boys for life.
03:23:48.290 --> 03:23:49.490
Uh yeah, right, mates.
03:23:49.650 --> 03:23:51.329
Uh music, what do you listen to?
03:23:51.570 --> 03:23:52.770
What's your what's your go-to?
03:23:53.090 --> 03:23:55.090
Nicki Webster, Spice Girls.
03:23:55.250 --> 03:23:55.730
Yeah, yeah.
03:23:55.810 --> 03:23:58.930
Now um love I've always been a Midnight Oil fan.
03:23:59.090 --> 03:23:59.810
Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
03:24:00.050 --> 03:24:01.490
Yeah, Midnight Oil.
03:24:01.650 --> 03:24:04.610
Um, I listened to a lot of like Jack Johnson.
03:24:04.690 --> 03:24:10.290
Um he went off the grid and he's gone off the grid, ain't he?
03:24:10.530 --> 03:24:13.329
He was big back in the early 2000s, big on Jack Johnson.
03:24:13.410 --> 03:24:17.810
And yeah, he's he's he's he seems to have disappeared and he's just starting to come back.
03:24:18.050 --> 03:24:19.890
Yeah, I met him two years ago.
03:24:20.130 --> 03:24:20.370
Did you?
03:24:20.610 --> 03:24:21.250
In Singapore, yeah.
03:24:21.329 --> 03:24:21.650
Yeah.
03:24:21.970 --> 03:24:26.450
Come to a show that of that and I escorted him around and had a little chat, mate.
03:24:26.690 --> 03:24:33.010
Yeah, but I love a lot of Australian rock bands, you know, Powderfinger and Huda Gurus, you know, all that.
03:24:33.170 --> 03:24:33.970
Metal as anything.
03:24:34.050 --> 03:24:35.329
I used to love Metal as anything.
03:24:35.490 --> 03:24:35.890
Oh yeah?
03:24:36.050 --> 03:24:36.450
Yeah.
03:24:36.690 --> 03:24:40.690
So um, but yeah, Midnight Oil's always been my my go-to.
03:24:41.410 --> 03:24:46.530
And you know, I saw one of their last concerts up here in the the wineries, oh yeah, which was fantastic.
03:24:47.090 --> 03:24:48.850
How did his political career go?
03:24:49.170 --> 03:24:50.450
Where it should have.
03:24:50.850 --> 03:24:52.530
Nowhere, it was terrible.
03:24:52.770 --> 03:24:54.290
Stick to stick to music, mate.
03:24:54.370 --> 03:24:54.850
Yeah, yeah.
03:24:55.490 --> 03:24:56.770
Yeah, so what you're good at.
03:24:56.930 --> 03:24:57.890
Yeah, midnight oil.
03:24:57.970 --> 03:24:59.170
Yeah, yeah, right, mate.
03:24:59.490 --> 03:25:05.890
Um, for whatever reason people want to reach out to you, just reach out to me and I'll I can pass on.
03:25:05.970 --> 03:25:10.050
Uh yeah, it's gotta be genuine, it's not some rebel bikey that wants to kill you.
03:25:10.210 --> 03:25:11.810
Or or to tell me I was an arsehole.
03:25:12.050 --> 03:25:12.690
That's it, yeah.
03:25:12.850 --> 03:25:13.250
No, please.
03:25:14.850 --> 03:25:17.730
That pick that pull me over for doing four kilometers over the speed limit.
03:25:17.970 --> 03:25:18.690
What an arsehole.
03:25:19.010 --> 03:25:19.490
That's it.
03:25:19.570 --> 03:25:20.450
That's it.
03:25:21.170 --> 03:25:25.010
Mate, how many just quickly, how many arrests do you reckon you've made over your career?
03:25:25.250 --> 03:25:25.570
Oh god.
03:25:25.810 --> 03:25:27.329
Surely there's a tally somewhere.
03:25:27.490 --> 03:25:27.890
Yeah, no.
03:25:28.450 --> 03:25:30.210
Like a on the side of a bomber where they tick off.
03:25:30.370 --> 03:25:41.170
Yeah, no, no, but but when uh when I worked with uh another guy out at um Charlestown, like if we didn't make an arrest a day, yeah, we were bored.
03:25:41.490 --> 03:25:50.130
Like the first thing we'd do is we wouldn't, as young, young up-and-coming detectives, we weren't interested in in sort of you know drinking coffee and different things.
03:25:50.370 --> 03:25:51.890
We'd who can we lock up today?
03:25:52.050 --> 03:25:52.930
Let's go and search for this.
03:25:53.090 --> 03:25:53.970
Yeah, let's go and search for this.
03:25:54.130 --> 03:25:54.850
And there's plenty of them.
03:25:55.090 --> 03:25:57.970
Well, Window was always it was a happy hunting ground.
03:25:58.290 --> 03:25:58.930
Window.
03:25:59.490 --> 03:26:01.890
God love there's some good people that come out of Windale.
03:26:02.130 --> 03:26:04.050
Not many, not many.
03:26:04.930 --> 03:26:05.650
Yeah, right.
03:26:05.970 --> 03:26:10.770
Um mate, again, really appreciate you coming on the podcast and wanting to share your story.
03:26:11.010 --> 03:26:15.570
Again, mate, reaching those dizzy heights of assistant commissioner slash politician.
03:26:15.810 --> 03:26:21.890
You know, it's uh it's good, good to get you on and share your side of the story and share where you come from.
03:26:21.970 --> 03:26:25.730
Because again, young cops out there looking up and going, who's that pricking?
03:26:25.890 --> 03:26:26.290
Who's that?
03:26:26.450 --> 03:26:29.090
You know, I don't even know who the assistance commissioners are these days.
03:26:29.250 --> 03:26:33.170
Yeah, um, but they'll be looking up going, he's not doing nothing.
03:26:33.329 --> 03:26:39.490
But some are, some are trying to make change, yeah, but some get pushed out, like Nick, like yourself.
03:26:39.730 --> 03:26:41.250
Yeah, yeah, that's that's it.
03:26:41.329 --> 03:26:53.329
It's um it's you know, one of the things I'd really encourage young people to to bear in mind is don't be too harsh on on the bosses of today because hopefully one day you'll become a boss.
03:26:53.570 --> 03:27:01.170
So learn from the errors that if they're making errors now, you learn from them and don't don't continue with the same errors when you're a boss.
03:27:01.890 --> 03:27:03.890
So it's generational.
03:27:03.970 --> 03:27:08.450
I think if we can make the change now, like I think we've done with the military.
03:27:08.690 --> 03:27:20.930
A lot of the younger guys that went through, you know, post G Watt, we started losing because there was no wars going on and it got very left, very political with Wackeye in control and obviously all the war crime stuff.
03:27:21.010 --> 03:27:22.770
But then the attitudes changed now.
03:27:22.850 --> 03:27:30.610
A lot of people are those younger diggers now are coming through the rank structure and starting to change the attitude and bring us back to being war fighters in a way.
03:27:30.690 --> 03:27:47.010
So same thing for the cops, you know, we've got senior constables now that have starting to change the attitudes of and hopefully we've got a new government in the next couple of years, and yeah, that may assist with uh changing attitudes and maybe who knows, restructuring, bringing in a part-time force or whatever.
03:27:47.329 --> 03:27:50.930
Yeah, well, you know, one of the things is don't become a meal room orator.
03:27:51.170 --> 03:28:00.450
You know, if you're a if you're a constable or a senior constable, whatever the case is, and you're not happy with things, you know, work hard to to you know, climb the ranks and change, make the change that's needed.
03:28:00.610 --> 03:28:00.850
Yeah.
03:28:01.090 --> 03:28:09.090
Mate, just quickly before we go, I just want to get your opinion on you know, again, sitting in that ivory tower up the top with all the the head shed.
03:28:09.170 --> 03:28:12.450
We spoke about Link Cafe and the few changes that happened after that.
03:28:12.690 --> 03:28:22.370
Obviously, in the last you know, a few months, last end of last year, we had the biggest single-handed terrorist attack that happened here in Australia, especially you know, in in Bondi.
03:28:22.850 --> 03:28:23.970
What's your thoughts on that?
03:28:24.050 --> 03:28:33.090
Because uh, you know, a few things have come out of this now where it's it's failings of New South Wales Police, federal police, ASIO, and obviously government.
03:28:33.170 --> 03:28:40.050
And obviously, me being a shooter, they've just put all the blame on on the law, law-abiding citizen that's got a few guns.
03:28:40.290 --> 03:28:40.930
Yeah, yeah.
03:28:41.650 --> 03:28:48.290
Um I think clearly there's been a a failing with the intelligence sectors somewhere.
03:28:48.450 --> 03:28:54.210
Now, whether that's Commonwealth or whether it's state, um, you know, I'd have to be given further information.
03:28:54.370 --> 03:29:01.010
But but I think from from New South Wales perspective, generally they're they're they were well across things.
03:29:01.410 --> 03:29:13.810
So to to have a failing there, it may be the case, I'm not quite sure, but I think perhaps ASIO at this point in time, um, and the Commonwealth Intelligence side of the house.
03:29:13.970 --> 03:29:23.490
I think this is where homeland needs to take responsibility and build up to what it should deliver for state governments and state police forces.
03:29:24.050 --> 03:29:32.370
Um, you know, who's out there, who's active, or you know, who's who's doing what, um, what communications are are flowing.
03:29:32.530 --> 03:29:44.770
So I think there's there's got to be a lot more uh work done in in terms of um professional intelligence gathering and then the sharing of that information with the the correct bodies.
03:29:45.329 --> 03:29:47.090
So that's that's one aspect.
03:29:47.250 --> 03:29:52.210
You know, what I really um feel for uh were the men and women who were on the ground.
03:29:52.530 --> 03:29:53.490
Of course, yeah.
03:29:53.730 --> 03:29:57.010
Um you know, that that's from a policing perspective, you know.
03:29:57.250 --> 03:30:09.250
God, I feel I feel sorry for the this the fact that you know people lost their lives and and good people uh you know witnessed their family members being slain with with with these two lunatics.
03:30:09.410 --> 03:30:14.530
And the police officer that had the courage and took him out with his with his Glock.
03:30:15.090 --> 03:30:16.850
Like, what a fantastic shot.
03:30:17.170 --> 03:30:23.890
Like there's not not too many police that that under those circumstances could could take the individual out with a with a glock.
03:30:24.370 --> 03:30:28.610
So um courageous effort from from him.
03:30:28.850 --> 03:30:38.530
But in terms of where we're to from here, I think that the what we've got to do is learn that uh intelligence is is highly sought after.
03:30:38.770 --> 03:30:42.290
There's got to be a huge improvement in in that area.
03:30:42.530 --> 03:30:45.810
Um again, where where do the funds come from from a Commonwealth level?
03:30:45.890 --> 03:30:49.090
That's where the funds should be going to keep our communities safe.
03:30:49.329 --> 03:30:52.130
Uh, like for instance, the ISIS brides.
03:30:53.010 --> 03:31:02.930
It's beyond me to understand why they come back here, the amount of money it's costing the general taxpayer in in looking after those individuals.
03:31:03.250 --> 03:31:21.890
But I'm not quite sure whether you know or not, but the the the indication is that for the children that come back of the ISIS brides, the money that they require to educate, uh try and re-establish them back into Australian society is astronomical.
03:31:22.210 --> 03:31:23.090
Yeah, of course it is.
03:31:23.329 --> 03:31:24.370
It's astronomical.
03:31:24.690 --> 03:31:32.290
Um and the politicians need to be held accountable uh by the community uh to answer what is going on there.
03:31:32.450 --> 03:31:34.050
Um what is it costing?
03:31:34.290 --> 03:31:36.290
Was this the right decision to be made?
03:31:36.850 --> 03:31:40.930
But you know, Bondi uh will it occur again?
03:31:41.490 --> 03:31:56.530
Um you know, we we hope not, but I I I would think that we will see more of these sort of uh uh incidents occur over over the years to come, particularly with what's occurring over in the Middle East now.
03:31:57.090 --> 03:32:20.210
Um and again it it comes back to we need to ramp up dramatically how we how we know gather intelligence, uh how we investigate, um even having appropriate staffing numbers to be able to surveil and and monitor individuals uh on a twenty-four hour basis.
03:32:20.370 --> 03:32:22.850
Like that that capacity is not there.
03:32:23.410 --> 03:32:25.250
And but it's required.
03:32:25.810 --> 03:32:44.690
Um Yeah, I think uh the reason why I wanted to ask you is because you're you were part of that, you know, the command structure for the for the uh public transport, so no doubt you would have been getting briefings from counterterrorism side m from ASEO from AFP in somewhat aspect.
03:32:45.090 --> 03:32:50.530
Yeah, well I I was part of the the card race, so I had top top um security clearance.
03:32:50.930 --> 03:32:57.329
So yeah, you'd be briefed occasionally by by ASIO and and certain members.
03:32:57.570 --> 03:33:01.810
Um but I I don't think we were briefed sufficiently.
03:33:02.450 --> 03:33:07.730
Um which I think has come to fruition w through the prelim inquiry.
03:33:07.970 --> 03:33:08.290
Yeah, yeah.
03:33:08.530 --> 03:33:24.530
You know, they're pretty much now ASIO, especially I think within the latest legislation changes that come in, you know, the start of the year, I think a lot of it angles that's the breakdown of communication between organizations, especially ASIO not passing on again.
03:33:24.610 --> 03:33:26.610
This is what I've read and this is what's open source.
03:33:26.930 --> 03:33:27.410
Yeah, yeah.
03:33:27.570 --> 03:33:31.329
Look, I I haven't sort of looked into it a great deal.
03:33:31.490 --> 03:33:38.450
Um but certainly in in in today's world, you know, y you can see the writing on the wall.
03:33:38.610 --> 03:33:54.370
If you don't ramp these things up, the intelligence gathering, uh, the investigative capacity and capability, uh, the good and solid sharing of of information on a timely basis, you know, it'll lead to another and lead it'll lead to another incident.
03:33:54.690 --> 03:34:05.090
Um you know, New South Wales police, as as we touched on, I think, earlier on, you know, the long arm long arms rollout of a of a new command, I think that's essential.
03:34:05.250 --> 03:34:06.290
But they can't be everywhere.
03:34:06.370 --> 03:34:09.970
And that's and I'm not quite sure that that's what worries me in regards to.
03:34:10.210 --> 03:34:11.490
I think there should be one in every boot.
03:34:11.650 --> 03:34:12.450
Ah, obviously.
03:34:12.690 --> 03:34:20.290
I think every officer, again, US model, every officer should be there should be a shotgun, there should be a a long arm in the back of each of those vehicles.
03:34:20.530 --> 03:34:20.850
Yeah.
03:34:21.170 --> 03:34:37.170
Well, that was something that was sort of uh, you know, when I was in um following Linton and different things, that was something that Mick Fuller was keen to to follow up on and and look at the rollout of of a high-powered firearm in in each police vehicle.
03:34:37.490 --> 03:34:42.850
Um it it never sort of gathered the momentum and and sigh enough that it should have.
03:34:43.250 --> 03:34:44.130
Still should.
03:34:44.370 --> 03:34:49.170
Um like you said, you know, is it gonna happen in the future?
03:34:49.650 --> 03:34:50.610
It's probable.
03:34:51.170 --> 03:34:51.970
It's definitely probable.
03:34:52.130 --> 03:34:53.570
And are they gonna use firearms?
03:34:53.730 --> 03:34:55.329
Probably, probably, probably not.
03:34:55.490 --> 03:34:55.970
We don't know.
03:34:56.050 --> 03:34:59.890
Yeah, but we know for a fact, history has shown they use cars, they use knives.
03:35:00.050 --> 03:35:03.250
I've spent time in these countries, Iraq, Afghanistan.
03:35:03.490 --> 03:35:04.690
I've seen what they've used.
03:35:04.770 --> 03:35:07.170
There's been times where they used zero firearms.
03:35:07.570 --> 03:35:14.850
You know, it kind of pissed me off that the government and the police come out straight away and just blamed the everyday citizen as well.
03:35:15.010 --> 03:35:22.770
Hang on, you you're the pricks that gave him the firearms license, then the you approved it through your little system, you New South Wales Firearms Registry.
03:35:23.010 --> 03:35:24.450
You guys approved it, and not me.
03:35:24.690 --> 03:35:25.329
That's your fault.
03:35:25.410 --> 03:35:26.370
Why are you blaming us?
03:35:26.530 --> 03:35:27.250
Yeah, yeah.
03:35:27.329 --> 03:35:36.770
I always question, like, you know, you look at their their firearms, like, why did they need all of those long arms that they that they maintained, the the the father and son?
03:35:37.170 --> 03:35:48.370
Like that, you know, from a firearms perspective, I I was never a great believer in in uh, you know, everyone they a lot of people don't need long arms.
03:35:49.010 --> 03:35:59.970
Some people do, of course, because of their occupation and and what they what they're involved in and different things, but but I think there was a rollout of some new legislation just recently uh through firearms registry.
03:36:00.290 --> 03:36:02.610
Which is embarrassing and disgusting.
03:36:02.770 --> 03:36:03.329
Yeah, is it?
03:36:03.810 --> 03:36:04.690
Yeah, it is, it is.
03:36:04.930 --> 03:36:09.730
It's it's mate, I like I I do disagree with you know why do people need long arms?
03:36:10.050 --> 03:36:17.010
You know, it's it's it's I hate it when when police or you know the government says it's it's a privilege, not a right.
03:36:17.090 --> 03:36:17.730
Hang on, hang on.
03:36:17.970 --> 03:36:23.570
No, it is a right for me to be an Australian citizen to do what I want, you know, kind of when I want, with well within the law.
03:36:23.890 --> 03:36:26.210
And one of those reasons is to have firearms.
03:36:26.450 --> 03:36:29.010
I want firearms because I enjoy it.
03:36:29.410 --> 03:36:36.690
It's been part of my life history for the last I've carried AK 47s, you know, I've I've used these applications in the real world.
03:36:37.170 --> 03:36:47.250
But I also use it now to help farmers eradicate pests, and and the reason why I have so many rifles because I'm not gonna shoot a pig with a 50 cow.
03:36:47.650 --> 03:36:52.050
I'm gonna use a appropriate uh round, 308, 6'5, etc.
03:36:52.290 --> 03:36:56.930
I'm not gonna use a 308 to shoot a rabbit, it's not cost effective and it's just pointless.
03:36:57.010 --> 03:36:57.810
I'll use a 22.
03:36:57.890 --> 03:36:59.650
This is the reason why I need so many firearms.
03:36:59.730 --> 03:37:02.770
So the new legislation that's come out is absolutely ridiculous.
03:37:02.930 --> 03:37:07.970
Again, Chris Miz cris come out and said we're gonna ban belt-fed shotguns.
03:37:08.530 --> 03:37:09.490
Mate, what?
03:37:09.730 --> 03:37:11.730
What is a belt-fed shotgun?
03:37:11.970 --> 03:37:14.530
And the government backed this, it went through legislation.
03:37:14.770 --> 03:37:16.690
Like, who's feeding you this information?
03:37:16.850 --> 03:37:18.450
What is a belt-fed shotgun?
03:37:18.530 --> 03:37:19.650
Yeah, I d I don't know.
03:37:19.810 --> 03:37:20.290
No one knows.
03:37:20.530 --> 03:37:21.570
Yeah, I've never heard of it.
03:37:21.890 --> 03:37:23.090
No one no one knows, no one knows.
03:37:23.170 --> 03:37:25.410
And it's in legislation, it's written in legislation.
03:37:25.570 --> 03:37:25.890
Yeah, right.
03:37:26.290 --> 03:37:27.090
No one can still figure it out.
03:37:27.170 --> 03:37:28.930
Everyone's like, we don't we don't know what this is.
03:37:29.010 --> 03:37:38.770
But anyway, like it's I think again it is political because it is very government oriented and you know that they are very left.
03:37:38.930 --> 03:37:39.250
Yeah, yeah.
03:37:39.410 --> 03:37:44.050
And they're obviously their first reaction is let's just take away the guns from everyone.
03:37:44.130 --> 03:37:46.930
Because if we cancel the guns, there's going to be a no-more gun crime.
03:37:47.090 --> 03:37:47.570
Guess what?
03:37:47.970 --> 03:37:58.770
There's buddy AK-47s and SKS now out in the street, and they're shooting up the streets now, and then dump then the wild part is that they're just leaving the S SKS on the side of the road.
03:37:58.850 --> 03:37:59.650
What does that indicate?
03:37:59.810 --> 03:38:02.050
It indicates there's a shit ton more.
03:38:02.370 --> 03:38:04.450
We don't need that one because we've got 50 more.
03:38:04.610 --> 03:38:05.170
Oh, yeah, look.
03:38:05.490 --> 03:38:15.329
How about we focus on the real crime rather than and actually how about we don't give a firearms license to a fucking someone that's been on the ASIO watch list?
03:38:15.410 --> 03:38:16.370
Yeah, that's a good startup.
03:38:16.850 --> 03:38:18.210
Yeah, well, it would be, wouldn't it?
03:38:18.370 --> 03:38:19.010
That's a good start.
03:38:19.250 --> 03:38:22.610
But but but I get you know, I I can see, you know, you're very passionate.
03:38:23.090 --> 03:38:24.130
100%, 100%.
03:38:24.690 --> 03:38:28.690
But um, yeah, getting back to Bondi, look, you know, we go, will it happen again?
03:38:28.850 --> 03:38:32.690
Well, it wasn't that long ago when you had the lone wolf at Bondi Junction.
03:38:33.329 --> 03:38:34.450
So what's next?
03:38:34.610 --> 03:38:35.010
Yeah.
03:38:35.250 --> 03:38:44.050
So, you know, people and this is probably the greater fear of lone wolves um, you know, escalating over time.
03:38:44.370 --> 03:38:58.210
Because whether it's you know what they're reading on online, um, you know, whether it's their mental health, uh, you know, that gets to a point where the right people haven't, you know, pushed the the uh the the alarm bell.
03:38:58.290 --> 03:38:58.530
Yeah, yeah.
03:38:58.690 --> 03:39:05.570
Going, you know what, this person's you know, uh of a danger to him or herself plus others.
03:39:05.890 --> 03:39:07.730
Um there's a lot of work to be done.
03:39:07.810 --> 03:39:08.850
There's no two ways about it.
03:39:08.930 --> 03:39:09.090
Yeah.
03:39:09.329 --> 03:39:09.970
A lot of work.
03:39:10.130 --> 03:39:10.770
Yeah.
03:39:11.010 --> 03:39:25.650
Yeah, hopefully, uh hopefully the Royal Commission gets completed and some good stuff comes into this inquiry, and a lot of it comes out, and hopefully, again, amalgamates what the ASIA's doing with the federal police and with obviously the guys on the ground, New South Wales police.
03:39:25.810 --> 03:39:29.170
Yeah, and because again, there was a New Sail West police that had to respond to this.
03:39:29.410 --> 03:39:30.610
Two cops were shot.
03:39:31.090 --> 03:39:33.890
I actually caught up with one of them uh a couple of weeks ago, had lunch with him.
03:39:34.050 --> 03:39:40.130
All right, and uh he's doing well now, and he's trying to get back on the on the on the truck, you know, like the guy was shot twice, yeah.
03:39:40.690 --> 03:39:46.930
Shot through the chest, like mate, and he still wants to get back out in the truck, which is you know, yeah, all power to him.
03:39:47.090 --> 03:39:58.850
But uh yeah, again, mate, just for the you know, the poor cop out there, and again, I guess this comes back to fitness and just being the best you can be because you just how many of those Bondi cops realise they're gonna be in the biggest gunfire of their lives?
03:39:58.930 --> 03:39:59.410
Yeah, I know.
03:39:59.570 --> 03:40:00.450
Not a single one of them.
03:40:00.770 --> 03:40:06.370
Yeah, but again, you know, it's it's um you know, the media reaction.
03:40:06.610 --> 03:40:07.329
Oh yeah.
03:40:08.690 --> 03:40:11.570
You know, it was a poor reaction by the the Prime Minister too.
03:40:12.370 --> 03:40:13.090
Unbelievable.
03:40:13.250 --> 03:40:13.570
Yeah.
03:40:14.130 --> 03:40:17.250
Yeah, and and again, this is I think that comes back to that word integrity.
03:40:17.570 --> 03:40:21.170
This is where the Prime Minister should have come out the next day and said, We fucked up.
03:40:21.650 --> 03:40:25.970
My government fucked up, the police fucked up, AZO fucked up, we all fucked up.
03:40:26.290 --> 03:40:28.690
We're gonna get to the bottom of this, we're gonna figure this out.
03:40:29.970 --> 03:40:31.250
Yeah, let's make this happen.
03:40:31.410 --> 03:40:31.730
Yeah, yeah.
03:40:31.890 --> 03:40:36.690
Well, that's you know, it'll be interesting anyway to see what comes out of the Royal Commission.
03:40:37.490 --> 03:40:38.370
It really will be.
03:40:38.450 --> 03:40:38.770
Yeah.
03:40:38.930 --> 03:40:44.770
But to to actually see significant change occur, I guess time will tell.
03:40:45.490 --> 03:40:47.250
Maybe they might give you a call, mate.
03:40:47.410 --> 03:40:49.010
Might be time for some restructure.
03:40:50.130 --> 03:40:51.730
Hey Max, mate, uh they can have that.
03:40:52.130 --> 03:40:52.690
Fancy coming back.
03:40:52.930 --> 03:40:54.530
I don't have I don't have time for that.
03:40:54.690 --> 03:40:56.530
I'd rather go and play golf or surf.
03:40:56.690 --> 03:41:12.370
Yeah, mate, as I said, I just wanted to ask you the question, just only because you're within that that that public transport, and I'm sure you would have got briefings from you know, in your your secret round table meetings about obviously counter-terrorism, which isn't, you know, it's a it's a it's a threat around the world right now.
03:41:12.450 --> 03:41:24.370
And it again with the war in Ira uh in Iran and the the anti-semitism, the the word of uh 2025 slash 2026 coming around.
03:41:24.690 --> 03:41:27.570
Yeah, well I think you just have to look at what's occurring in America.
03:41:27.810 --> 03:41:28.290
Yeah.
03:41:28.530 --> 03:41:33.329
And and what's being shared with us through social media or the news and different things.
03:41:33.570 --> 03:41:38.290
Like if that doesn't set some people off as a lone wolf, I I'm not quite sure what will.
03:41:38.690 --> 03:41:39.650
No, exactly right, mate.
03:41:39.730 --> 03:41:49.090
Yeah, and I think I think the government needs to be wary of the right side of lone wolves coming out as well, like Christchurch, you know, for example.
03:41:49.250 --> 03:41:55.170
Yeah, I th you know it's it's such a massive imbalance between both now where it's very unstable.
03:41:55.329 --> 03:41:55.730
Yeah.
03:41:55.890 --> 03:42:05.810
Uh which again, the poor old GD is going to be the one that's gonna have to suffer, uh, as well as obviously the public, but the GD is gonna be the one that's gonna have to be the first on the ground and respond.
03:42:05.890 --> 03:42:13.250
So Yeah, and and look, some of the training that they've done in regards to, you know, running towards the the the danger.
03:42:13.490 --> 03:42:16.210
Um, you know, you you you take your hat off to them.
03:42:16.530 --> 03:42:16.850
100%.
03:42:17.250 --> 03:42:18.290
They run towards danger.
03:42:18.530 --> 03:42:18.930
That's right.
03:42:19.090 --> 03:42:19.970
They don't run away from it.
03:42:20.210 --> 03:42:24.850
Everyone's everyone else is running in the opposite direction, they're running towards it, getting getting into the thick of it.
03:42:25.010 --> 03:42:26.450
Yeah, so anyway.
03:42:26.690 --> 03:42:32.770
Anyway, mate, uh I thought I'd just uh quickly question you on that, but again, I think you were the person that asked about it.
03:42:33.090 --> 03:42:42.050
I'm not quite sure about that, but but hopefully, um hopefully with there's there's a number of learnings I would think will come from it, but it's all about the action at the end of it.
03:42:42.210 --> 03:42:46.610
Yeah, getting on with things, which hopefully is is occurring behind behind the scenes.
03:42:46.690 --> 03:42:46.930
Yeah.
03:42:47.170 --> 03:42:50.450
We shouldn't have to wait for a royal commission to hand down the recommendations.
03:42:50.690 --> 03:42:57.090
Like I said, there should be a shotgun and long arm in every single vehicle, every single cop should be trained in those firearms.
03:42:57.490 --> 03:43:00.450
There, if needed, it's better to have it than not have it when it's needed.
03:43:00.610 --> 03:43:00.850
Absolutely.
03:43:01.090 --> 03:43:02.530
It's one of those bigger scenarios, isn't it?
03:43:02.770 --> 03:43:04.210
Yep, absolutely tough.
03:43:04.370 --> 03:43:04.850
Yeah, mate.
03:43:05.090 --> 03:43:05.810
Uh yeah, right.
03:43:05.970 --> 03:43:09.329
No, appreciate you coming in and uh we'll have to go for a go for a hit, mate.
03:43:09.410 --> 03:43:10.610
Come out with Mu Ree.
03:43:11.490 --> 03:43:12.930
You might get stabbed.
03:43:13.250 --> 03:43:19.490
But uh mate, I love Muri because it's such a coarse you can you can you can shank it completely.
03:43:19.810 --> 03:43:21.170
I was just about to say you won't lose a ball.
03:43:21.329 --> 03:43:22.610
Yeah, you'll still end up on a green.
03:43:22.850 --> 03:43:25.010
Maybe three greens over, but you'll end up on a green.
03:43:25.250 --> 03:43:25.810
No, no, no.
03:43:25.890 --> 03:43:27.329
Matt, it's been uh terrific, mate.
03:43:27.410 --> 03:43:28.450
Thanks for the invite.
03:43:28.610 --> 03:43:31.650
It's um it's been great to to share some of the stories.
03:43:31.730 --> 03:43:38.610
Hopefully, hopefully uh what I've had to say and share with you is resonates with some some young police.
03:43:38.850 --> 03:43:41.490
Um if it doesn't, I I apologize.
03:43:41.570 --> 03:43:48.530
Um, but hopefully it it it's resonated to to a number out there, um, as well as other emergency service personnel.
03:43:48.850 --> 03:43:49.329
For sure.
03:43:49.570 --> 03:43:54.610
Um but um yeah, thanks thanks for having me and and uh and I appreciate your time.
03:43:55.010 --> 03:43:55.490
Thanks, mate.
03:43:55.570 --> 03:43:57.890
And shout out to all the young GDs out there.
03:43:57.970 --> 03:44:02.770
I know you're listening, you're out there in your truck drinking your lattes and resting.
03:44:03.010 --> 03:44:04.450
They don't have talent for lattes, mate.
03:44:04.530 --> 03:44:05.090
They're on the roll.
03:44:05.410 --> 03:44:07.329
I see them all the time dropping at the coffee shops.
03:44:07.490 --> 03:44:08.130
So they should.
03:44:08.210 --> 03:44:08.850
They need the coffee.
03:44:09.010 --> 03:44:11.329
They need the coffee, but get out there and get get hunting.
03:44:11.490 --> 03:44:11.810
That's it.
03:44:11.890 --> 03:44:12.530
Get the crimson.
03:44:12.610 --> 03:44:13.090
Thanks, mate.
03:44:13.170 --> 03:44:13.650
Appreciate it.
03:44:13.810 --> 03:44:14.370
Cheers.