WEBVTT
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Hello, I am Marie Wynan.
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And I am Amanda Cox.
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Welcome to Wombat Talk.
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Good morning, Marie.
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Good morning, Amanda.
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What are we going to cover today?
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Oh, it's so exciting.
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We're going to talk about the main treatment research that we did.
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What is it about?
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Well, let's start with who we are, the we that actually did this.
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Today we're going to talk to uh Dr.
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Haley Stannard, who's our lead author, and that's going to be very exciting.
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The other we's were you, Marie Wynan, and your husband, Ray Wynan, who handled and managed looking after the volunteer wombats, myself, Amanda Cox from Wombat Protection, Dr.
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Howard Routh from Southern Cross Wildlife Care, Braidwood, and then Gregory Doran, Dr.
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Gregory Doran, who did the actual chemical analysis.
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So that's the we when we talk about we and our research.
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The main thing we were looking at was a way of treating mange and using a product called or a chemical called moxidectin.
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What we did was use a specific product that contains five grams per litre of moxidectin, a product called sedectin.
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And why is it so important?
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I mean, why don't we just go from the label of the bottle?
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So what had people had found was if you use the little more than the label dose, then mange seemed to clear up faster on these marsupials, our wombats.
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Yeah, we had found a I mean we have been quite clear, Wombat Protection Society under veterinary supervision had been working on this for like over a decade.
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So we've known this was a great way of treating mange, or a very fast way of treating mange.
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So I think we needed proof.
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Yes, and I think you can understand people had little panic attacks going, oh gosh, going to over-treat them, this is going to be toxic or whatever.
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And that is the beauty of this research.
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Hi, Haley, thank you for joining us.
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Would you like to start by introducing yourself?
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Um I'm Associate Professor Haley Stenard.
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I teach here at Charles Turt University, mostly teach animal anatomy and physiology, but my research background is native wildlife, nutritional ecology and conservation physiology, but also a little bit of epidemiology and working on sarcoptic mange in wombats.
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So you have published numerous papers on pharmacokinetics in beonosed wombats using moxidectin.
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Why was this research necessary?
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Why did you do it?
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Well, unfortunately, many of our wombats in Australia are affected by sarcoptic mange and it's present across their entire distribution.
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And if they get sarcoptic mange, they die.
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Okay, if we don't intervene and we don't treat them, it's a death sentence for them.
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So they have no natural ability to recover from this mite, likely because it's been introduced with the uh you know Europeans coming over and introducing other species of animals.
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They've brought the mites over.
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So the wombats have no natural immunity and no protection.
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And treatments were happening, um, but there wasn't any scientific evidence around the treatments and how they were actually being done in the field.
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So we know that subcutaneous injections work, but nothing had looked at um topical injection, uh topical application of the treatment.
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So we decided to look at that.
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What was the research?
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What did you do?
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So we put um 100 mils on each animal, on healthy animals, to look at pharmacokinetics to look at how it moves through the animal's bloodstream, how it's excreted out of their feces and its presence on their fur.
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So why 100 mil?
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Where did that why did we start with 100 mil?
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Well, we'd done some research before that and interviewed wildlife carers about the different dose rates that they'd been using, and some of them were using lower dosages, and that was the approved amount, so around 20 mils, and some were using four mils, and they were using them for months and months on end and not getting any recovery.
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It was very slow.
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But some people had used some higher doses and they had some quicker recoveries.
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And ideally, if you're going to be treating with an insecticide or anything like that, you want to be using it for the shortest amount of time possible because you don't want it to have any negative effects on the animals.
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Um, but also if you're using it for long periods of time, the insects start building up resistance, and then you have to use more and more and more over time, and we don't want the insects to build any resistance.
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That's a really good point.
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You've got to treat them hard and fast so they're not being exposed to the drug for a length of time.
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Tell us about what did we measure?
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Yeah, so we poured the dose on the back, and then we went in every seven days and collected blood samples, and we collected scat samples, and we collected some fur samples.
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So, with the blood, we were able to test how long the moxidectin stayed in there in the blood, but we also did some hematology and blood chemistry just to check on health.
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And we also kept an eye on the animals to look at their behavior as well, to see if there was any negative effects, because there was a bit of speculation around about it having neurological effects on the animals.
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But uh all the evidence for this particular moxidectin thus far is that it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so that it shouldn't have neurological effects, unlike some of the other um chemicals out there that are used in pesticides and insecticides.
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So when you're looking at the plasma, so how much sardectin actually entered a bloodstream?
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It was probably a lot lower than I was expecting.
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Like I didn't expect it to be huge because it was a topical dose versus doing something subcutaneously and putting it directly into the bloodstream.
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Um, but it was much, much lower than I thought.
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So, what were the results?
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So our maximum, our the peak that it reached in the plasma was on average 0.5 nanograms per mil of plasma.
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Yes.
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I would like to compare that.
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So if you're looking at the research that was done by DATH in 2011, in the southern hair-nosed bombards, they gave a subcutaneous injection of 0.2 milligram per kilo.
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And if that is a 30 kilo bombard, that equals then six milligrams.
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So six milligrams versus uh 100 mil, which 100 mil equals 500 milligrams.
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So we're comparing six milligrams versus 500 milligram topical in the subcutaneous injections using six milligram, they got 98.6 nanogram per mil.
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Yeah, and we used 500 milligrams and we only got 0.5 nanogram per mil.
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That's huge.
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Yes, it's a huge difference.
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So we're talking about the amounts that actually entered through the skin are fractions, like they're just detectable levels, aren't they?
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Yeah, yeah, very, very small compared to doing it subcutaneously.
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So basically it's going onto the skin and and staying on the skin and not crossing into the bloodstream as much as if you do it via subcutaneous injection.
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So where does it go?
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Um, well, some of it does go in, and then when it goes in, it gets metabolized and excreted out.
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Um, luckily enough, moxidectin actually likes to bind to fat.
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So it binds to it and then it goes out with the food, basically binds onto the food and off it goes and gets excreted out quite well and quite easily.
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Otherwise, it stays on the skin until it sort of disintegrates over time because it's a naturally occurring chemical.
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It will break down and it doesn't have as much of a negative effect in the environment as some of our other pesticides.
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So is it safe to use?
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It is safe to use.
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There is no possible of any toxicity using 100 mil doses?
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No, not this far.
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We have not found any evidence of toxicity on wombats.
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Yeah, yes.
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So CK levels, what does that show you?
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Yes, so our CK levels came out quite low.
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So that's creatinine kinase, and this is one of our indicators of stress.
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So we use that as a measure of stress in animals.
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If you are darting kangaroos, for example, to collect blood samples or do something on them, their CK levels will be in the thousands or tens of thousands because they get quite stressed when you're doing that.
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But in our wombats, they were quite low.
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They were, I think they're only a few hundred.
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I'd have to look at that.
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Yeah, I've got it here, 109.5.
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109.5.
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Yeah, and then we're looking at if you compare that with healthy wombats in the wild that were captured via either chasing, they were netted, or they were captured via um a cage, their CK levels were 1800.
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One tenth of yeah.
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Yes, one tenth.
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So what did we do to keep the stress levels that low?
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Well, we're lucky that we worked with an amazing carer who knows wombats very well and understands behaviour, and snuck up behind them very calmly and gave them an injection of zolotil to sedate them.
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Unlike some of the other methods, as you've mentioned, like darting or jumping off the back of a ute and throwing a net around them, that's very stressful.
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Uh, everything that we did was very calm and very quiet, and yeah, didn't chase them and didn't scare them.
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So we kept them as stress-free as possible while we were doing it.
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Do you think that related treatment?
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Yes.
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So Yeah, well, having having an infection would also put their stress levels up as well.
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Their cortisol levels would be quite high as well because they'd be stressed out and their body's in an immune response.
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So they would be quite high as well.
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So ideally, you want to keep those stress levels as low as possible because they're already in a state of distress and their body's trying to fight off an infection.
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So anything we can do to keep them stress-free would is ideal.
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This is really interesting about that it doesn't go through the skin.
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Are there any other animals that are similar?
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Like we talked about giraffes, we talked about chameleons, that's all are they similar?
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No, I think the absorption into the camels and the giraffes that we looked at was higher, like the the amount that went across into the plasma was higher.
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But still lower than the cattle?
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Still lower than the cattle, yes.
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Yeah.
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So wildlife are probably a little bit different in the sense that, you know, with cattle and sheep and and production animals, we've spent a long time breeding them to make them a particular way.
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But also, generally speaking, our Eutherian animals have thinner skin than our marsupials.
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They're a bit tougher.
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And wombats in particular are very tough and have very tough, thick skin.
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And we don't know very much about their skin.
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There's been little bits and pieces done on marsupials in general, and some has included wombats about how the thickness of their skin and the cells and also the immune cells that they have in their skin.
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So that's actually something that we're currently working on.
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Oh, can we get any uh ideas?
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Any hints, or you can't talk about it.
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Yeah, I won't give away all my uh secrets just yet, but skin is something that we are looking at from a sense of an anatomical sense, but also an immune sense as well.
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Yeah, I was going to ask, what is the difference here?
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I mean, if you're looking at a wombat and you think about their behavior, it makes sense to me.
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A wombat live underground, they uh their behavior is they're fighting, territorial fighting, their mating ritual is pretty brutal.
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So, of course, they're going to need a skin that will expel anything, or they'll get gone infections all the time just from little wounds and living underground.
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I would like to know how much do you know about the difference in skin in Joey versus subadults to adults?
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Not that much.
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There's been I think all of the stuff that I've looked at in skin's been done in adults.
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There's a few papers around, or a lot of papers around, uh, of developmental biology of marsupials, but they don't often say a lot about the skin.
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But over time, I think their skin would start out very thin and and relatively porous and then get less porous and more tough over time as they develop.
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Because it's, you know, they're born, you know, at the equivalent of a nine-week-old human fetus.
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So it's very soft skin.
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And I think this is a lie if I say this, but I can't remember if they can breathe through their skin when they're first born.
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Yeah, we talked about that with uh Julie in uh in a previous podcast.
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There you go, she would know all about that.
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Amanda and I was actually talking just the other day about if you take a just say 10 kilo bombat that is raised from a pinky in care who is not exposed to wombat borrows and doesn't live outside full time, take a 10 kilo wombat that is still with its mum.
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Their fur, their skin, everything is so different about them.
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Do you think it changes how development stage versus environmental exposure?
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It'd probably be a bit of both, because you know, it'd be a development over time of their skin, you know, starting out very soft, very delicate, and then getting tougher.
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And their fur would probably start out quite that, you know, that baby fur is like soft and fuzzy and really, and then they have very quite coarse fur when they're adults.
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So there'd be that developmental happening.
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Um, but also if you put them out in the environment, they're being exposed to dirt and bugs and microbes and bacteria and stuff like that, which changes their microbiome of their skin and also their feces and things like that.
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So internally and externally.
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So it'd probably be a little bit of both working on them.
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Yeah.
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Going back to the research, what do you see as an ideal treatment for mange in wild adult wombats?
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Well, it's good because we're trying to create as little stress as possible, treat them as quickly as we can, and cure it as quickly as we can so that they're not suffering for a long period of time.
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You know, lots of small doses means you have to go out constantly and putting on small doses, small doses.
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And if you're doing it for months on end, that's not ideal.
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So ideally, you want to get out there, get it done as quickly as possible.
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Wombats like to move around.
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So if you get a large dose on and one dose happens to work, that's great.
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You're giving it a you're giving it a fighting chance rather than putting lots of little doses on and needing to do it for you know six months or something like that.
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So ideally, if you can go out, do it with a long pole or use a burrow flap or something like that, get it on without disturbing the wombat too much.
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And, you know, a couple of doses, maybe three, um, and it should be cured, hopefully.
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All the mites will be dead.
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Where does the mite live?
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The mite burrows into the epidermis, and they don't feed off blood like ticks or leeches or anything like that, but they feed off the serum that that comes through from the dermis through into the epidermis.
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So that doesn't that make sense that we shouldn't aim for a systemic treatment?
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Isn't it better to hit them from the outside?
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I think so personally, but there'd probably be other people who don't agree with that.
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So it's good to bind in either serum or plasma or whatever, and then yeah, and then come out through the the pores that the or the burrows that the mites essentially make so that they can feed on that serum.
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And they also eat the dead skin and stuff like that as well.
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Yeah.
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And then create lots more dead skin by you know, all the poop and if you had to do this research again, would you change anything?
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I I don't think I would.
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I think I think we did a good job of it.
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Yeah.
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Um I'm completely biased, of course.
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Uh yeah.
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I do too.
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I think I think we did a good job.
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Like it'll, you know, ideally you'd like to have as many animals as you could possibly have.
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And it would have been good to do all different sizes and then have a look at we if we could change the dose rate and get the same success.
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Like if we should scale it down and scale it up for different sized animals and males versus females.
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Yes.
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And and I would have liked to have looked at how it affects mums with bubs as well, whether there was any going passing through milk and things like that.
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So you'd have to milk a wombat, but you know, yeah, sillier things have been done.
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We did consider that we didn't have the ethics approval for because we did have a mother that we had to exclude from the project.
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Yeah, they always like to do things like that to us, turn up with a baby, and it's like don't want to be a participant.
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Okay.
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You have to go.
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Do we need to treat them the way this method is and consider the life cycle?
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So if we're putting a huge dose on externally, it goes into the epidermis.
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If that, if they have mild range, if they if you manage to kill all the females, I mean males will be easy to kill, they're on the surface, but they're gone.
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If you can get to all those females and they are dead, then the eggs don't die, of course, but if those eggs hatch within the three days, they hatch within two to three days.
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If there is enough sidectin left on the skin from the 100 mil dose and they die, isn't that it?
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Yes.
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I would think so.
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As long as they're yeah, as long as there's enough on them that's inhibiting the mites from living because they're yeah, they go and they ingest it and then yeah, it opens all the little channels in their body and they basically die.
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It's like an electrical overload.
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Yes, yeah.
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We have been successful with one dose of sardectin, 100% confirmed, which of course it's not published, and that makes sense.
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It can be done.
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And it also in the research that you published, we had two wombats that had mange, and they were treated in two weeks, three doses, yep, and they made a full recovery with skin scraping and everything.
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Yeah.
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And Haley, you may not have an answer to this, but what would you say about the work that I can see being done at the moment with trying to use nanotechnology to get more of whatever substance is?
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Do you think that's a good way of going, given what we've seen?
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It's progress.
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And it's uh it's good for if we need to change treatments, because if the mites start building up enough resistance, we are going to have to start looking at using other sources, and maybe it is better to use nanotechnology to take it in so and then treat systemically.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:58.720
It will treat systemically will still work to kill the mites because that's how the subcutaneous doses of moxidectin and ivomectin work.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:11.759
Um, but I'm also interested to see with the nanotechnology because some stuff has been done in I think goats and sheep looking at using zinc in nanotechnology for helping recovery from mange.
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:28.160
So it'd be really good to see if we could do something like that so that we give the wombats a dose of um moxidectin, and then we give them a dose of this nano zinc to help their fur recovery and skin recovery, because it's really important for recovery in skin and fur.
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:42.000
So I'm hoping that that that sort of nanotechnology will start moving us in that direction to get some sort of treatment options and open up that area of like how we can treat and how we can assist recovery.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.839
Do we need to do a whole heap more research?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:50.960
What's the difference is in masupal versus eutherian animals when it comes to medication?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.359
Yeah.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:52.400
With everything.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.599
There's the people think you know, they see kangaroos outside.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759
There's kangaroos outside my office today bouncing around, and we think you.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.279
Know the general public think, oh, we know heaps about kangaroos, but we actually know very little.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.079
And it's like all our marsupials, that's the problem.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:13.039
We know so little about them in every aspect of their biology.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.359
All of that basic stuff is missing.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:25.519
Because when you know white people came to Australia, marsupials were considered um very rudimentary or very unevolved, so they didn't really care about them.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:34.960
There was a lot of hunting and a lot of killing, and it took a long time for that to shift and for us to learn more and more about them, but we're still lacking so much information.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:42.720
So when it comes to medication and treatment, yep, definitely there's a lot that we don't know about their basic biology that would actually assist us.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:52.880
In some ways, marsupials are much more tolerant of certain things, and we can do a bit more than we can do on Eutherians, and in other ways, they're probably a little bit less tolerant.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.000
Interesting.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.480
Where have you presented these papers?
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:02.799
Uh, so I've presented this research at the International Mammal Congress in Alaska.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:12.160
Um, the Australian Wildlife Rehabilitation Conference was in Perth, and I also presented at the Australian Mammal Society Conference.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:13.359
That's amazing.
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.920
And what feedback have you had from presenting those papers?
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:20.160
Oh, really positive feedback.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.680
People are really excited to see the research and really interested in it.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:33.119
Uh, at the International Mammal Congress, I got to meet someone who works on gorillas, and she was telling me about treating mangin gorillas, and they shoot them with dart guns and with ivermectin.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.880
I'm like, oh wow.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:36.319
Hang on, hang on.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.640
They're shooting the gorillas with ivermectin into the muscle.
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:41.839
Into the muscle.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.599
So not subcutaneously.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:44.880
Not subcutaneously.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.039
And I said that, I said, oh wow, intramuscular.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.319
We yeah, anything we do is is either topical or subcutaneous.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.720
Yes.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:51.759
Yeah, intramuscular.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.039
But I suppose you probably don't want to get that close to a wild gorilla.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:55.920
Interesting.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:04.559
And it'd probably be a big thing apart from the gorillas are endangered, but also if gorillas live near humans and it and it being transferable to humans and being scabies and that.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:06.480
So yeah, it's a big thing over there.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:07.200
How interesting.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.000
Is it the same mite with the it is it is the same mite.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:20.400
So there was there there was some thought that they were different variants or subspecies of mites that only affected dogs and humans and things like that.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.200
But no, it can it's the same mite.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:28.640
It may be different variants, but more research needs to be done on their genetics to know for sure.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.279
But any any of them, if they get on you, you you can get scabies.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:44.480
That's fascinating to hear that, you know, the poor old gorillas have exactly the same reaction to, you know, mange mites that I get from little wombats.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.720
We are always in need of more funding for wombats.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.240
They are a particularly underfunded species in Australia.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:03.920
So a few years ago, the New South Wales government recognised that sarcoptic mange was a pretty big issue and funded four projects.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:14.319
And those projects have been done, and that's great, and it's contributed to the knowledge base that we have around sarcoptic mange, but there's so much more that needs to be done because it affects the entire population.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.680
And if we lose our wombats, we lose our ecological engineers.
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:28.880
They do a really good job of digging up the soil and creating habitat for other species, but that digging process also helps water infiltration and plants and seeds to grow and things like that.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:31.119
So it's really important that we keep our wombats.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.480
Koalas are really well funded, but wombats just aren't.
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.799
And you know, wombats are cousins to the koalas, so we need to share the love.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:48.880
Oh Marie, that was fascinating.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.920
Yeah, and lovely.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.559
Oh, so good, you know.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:58.160
There was another person we mentioned during that interview, and that was Dr.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:25:59.039
Julie Old.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:25:59.440
Yes.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.599
What can you tell us or the listeners about her?
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:14.480
Yes, so Associate Professor Julie Old from Western Sydney University, she's an expert in masupal biology and immunology, and we have had her on our podcast before.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.799
She was in masupal development and also in WOMSAT.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:27.680
Um now, Marie, you were the one who recruited the volunteer wombats and have been following them.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:28.799
How are they going?
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:30.400
Oh, they're brilliant.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:32.160
They're brilliant.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.079
I still apologize to them.
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.000
But I say you did a good job.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.039
And they're not cranky with you, they're not running away because you They've forgiven me.
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.119
They've forgiven me.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.880
That's lovely, that's lovely, and it's great to hear they're doing well.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.119
So tell me about the two wombats that had mange.
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:53.359
Yeah, they're doing really well.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.200
They both recovered, of course, and they haven't had mange since.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.599
They only had three doses over two weeks.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:03.839
So day one, seven, and fourteen.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:05.039
That's two weeks.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.079
Three doses.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.960
And we even at the time, we even said they don't need a third dose.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.279
We were so sure that they don't have mange anymore.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.720
It was all healed up.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:24.480
We gave the third dose for the purpose of seeing the bloods to see three doses of 100 mil to see what they did.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:33.759
And the funny thing is the results showed that their peak plasma concentration were half of the healthy wombats.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:49.119
So they only had a 0.25 nanogram per mil of moxidectin after three doses, seven days apart, that's that's it's just not going through.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:54.400
It's not entering through, even when you're repeating it 100 mil uh weekly.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:28:10.640
And I guess one of the other things is that if you know five grams per litre of moxidectin works on eutherean animals, we could actually change that quite simply to you know 50 grams per liter.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.039
And then people wouldn't be freaked out.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:13.680
Yes.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:16.720
Um that's the strange thing.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.319
But then you wonder, would that work as well?
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:31.599
Because you you know, because if this is a distribution thing that is going on then we don't know those questions.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:32.880
Of course.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.720
So there is still room for so much improvement.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.440
Yeah, like would a higher concentration of moxidectin be better?
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.440
Or would it be better has to do with the more oil?
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:46.480
Exactly.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:47.759
Exactly.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:29:00.720
I think one of the things we didn't talk about was one of the things that you and I looked at when looking at blood and other health of those animals.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:15.119
We were noticing to begin with that technically moxydectin should be being absorbed into the systemic system and it should have killed off wounds and parasites.
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.319
Yes, yes.
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:25.039
And that was one thing that uh hit us to at the beginning going, hang on, something's wrong here.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.400
Because we collected feces, we of course looked at it under the microscope.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:39.759
And amazing because we're all kind of thinking that we're treating uh parasites or internal parasites with a poron.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:43.519
It doesn't work in one adult wombats.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:55.839
We saw there were a decrease of strongloidis, ascaris, strongile, there were a decrease on day three and four.
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.799
By day five, it was absolutely back to normal.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:03.279
They were never parasite-free from a dose of 100 mil of sidectin.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:13.200
There was a this decrease, which correspond with the results of what we saw in the when we when it all came out in the from the university.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:21.839
But that I found that fascinating because that was long before we actually had found results.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.440
Something is very wrong.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:43.440
We do treat little velvet, like these the tiny little Joeys we're coming into care, they can be treated like with the porn.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
We often use ivomectin on them.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.200
I and it sort of works.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.519
I have stopped doing that.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:59.519
I all I never use poron anymore, ever on anyone but I use oral because I know what to see.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:01.599
For intestinal parasite.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:06.960
Absolutely, for intestinal parasite, I would never use a poron no matter what age anymore.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:14.240
I mean, in a pinky, yeah, I I still would go for a safe safe oral dose.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.000
So, but yeah, that's something we need to look into.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:38.000
And that goes back to what we were talking to Haley about the skin, the age of the wombat, how much is going through at what ages, because we were testing on wild, mature adults out in the field who'd been out there for a while, and they are the ones who got the mange in the field.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.000
Of course, of course, yeah.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:45.279
So you can't do the research on little Joey's or like 10 kilo wombats in care.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:57.680
That's why I asked her that question because then you get you don't get a true skin of the wombats that have the mange in real life, exactly, yep.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:09.279
And that's the important thing that you know doing something where you're looking at captive animals versus free-living animals can be totally different.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.519
And juveniles versus adults.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.279
Oh, absolutely.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:21.839
And that is it for this time, and now over to the bombats who will have the last say.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.240
Hello, I am Marie Wynan.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:03.680
And I am Amanda Cox.
00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:06.080
Welcome to Wombat Talk.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:07.919
Good morning, Marie.
00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:09.599
Good morning, Amanda.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:12.560
What are we going to cover today?
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:14.400
Oh, it's so exciting.
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:19.280
We're going to talk about the main treatment research that we did.
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:20.879
What is it about?
00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:26.960
Well, let's start with who we are, the we that actually did this.
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.239
Today we're going to talk to uh Dr.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:34.960
Haley Stannard, who's our lead author, and that's going to be very exciting.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:50.079
The other we's were you, Marie Wynan, and your husband, Ray Wynan, who handled and managed looking after the volunteer wombats, myself, Amanda Cox from Wombat Protection, Dr.
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:57.439
Howard Routh from Southern Cross Wildlife Care, Braidwood, and then Gregory Doran, Dr.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:01.119
Gregory Doran, who did the actual chemical analysis.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.760
So that's the we when we talk about we and our research.
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:15.280
The main thing we were looking at was a way of treating mange and using a product called or a chemical called moxidectin.
00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:26.879
What we did was use a specific product that contains five grams per litre of moxidectin, a product called sedectin.
00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.719
And why is it so important?
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:33.120
I mean, why don't we just go from the label of the bottle?
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:49.200
So what had people had found was if you use the little more than the label dose, then mange seemed to clear up faster on these marsupials, our wombats.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:59.599
Yeah, we had found a I mean we have been quite clear, Wombat Protection Society under veterinary supervision had been working on this for like over a decade.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:06.079
So we've known this was a great way of treating mange, or a very fast way of treating mange.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.159
So I think we needed proof.
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:18.560
Yes, and I think you can understand people had little panic attacks going, oh gosh, going to over-treat them, this is going to be toxic or whatever.
00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.680
And that is the beauty of this research.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.080
Hi, Haley, thank you for joining us.
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:33.120
Would you like to start by introducing yourself?
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:36.159
Um I'm Associate Professor Haley Stenard.
00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:54.319
I teach here at Charles Turt University, mostly teach animal anatomy and physiology, but my research background is native wildlife, nutritional ecology and conservation physiology, but also a little bit of epidemiology and working on sarcoptic mange in wombats.
00:02:55.120 --> 00:03:02.639
So you have published numerous papers on pharmacokinetics in beonosed wombats using moxidectin.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:07.120
Why was this research necessary?
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:08.639
Why did you do it?
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:18.000
Well, unfortunately, many of our wombats in Australia are affected by sarcoptic mange and it's present across their entire distribution.
00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:20.639
And if they get sarcoptic mange, they die.
00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:24.719
Okay, if we don't intervene and we don't treat them, it's a death sentence for them.
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:34.560
So they have no natural ability to recover from this mite, likely because it's been introduced with the uh you know Europeans coming over and introducing other species of animals.
00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:36.000
They've brought the mites over.
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.439
So the wombats have no natural immunity and no protection.
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:49.680
And treatments were happening, um, but there wasn't any scientific evidence around the treatments and how they were actually being done in the field.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:58.719
So we know that subcutaneous injections work, but nothing had looked at um topical injection, uh topical application of the treatment.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.800
So we decided to look at that.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:02.879
What was the research?
00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.159
What did you do?
00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:18.639
So we put um 100 mils on each animal, on healthy animals, to look at pharmacokinetics to look at how it moves through the animal's bloodstream, how it's excreted out of their feces and its presence on their fur.
00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:20.319
So why 100 mil?
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.439
Where did that why did we start with 100 mil?
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:41.439
Well, we'd done some research before that and interviewed wildlife carers about the different dose rates that they'd been using, and some of them were using lower dosages, and that was the approved amount, so around 20 mils, and some were using four mils, and they were using them for months and months on end and not getting any recovery.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:42.399
It was very slow.
00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.959
But some people had used some higher doses and they had some quicker recoveries.
00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:57.680
And ideally, if you're going to be treating with an insecticide or anything like that, you want to be using it for the shortest amount of time possible because you don't want it to have any negative effects on the animals.
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:08.240
Um, but also if you're using it for long periods of time, the insects start building up resistance, and then you have to use more and more and more over time, and we don't want the insects to build any resistance.
00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:09.839
That's a really good point.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:18.639
You've got to treat them hard and fast so they're not being exposed to the drug for a length of time.
00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:22.160
Tell us about what did we measure?
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:32.399
Yeah, so we poured the dose on the back, and then we went in every seven days and collected blood samples, and we collected scat samples, and we collected some fur samples.
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:42.639
So, with the blood, we were able to test how long the moxidectin stayed in there in the blood, but we also did some hematology and blood chemistry just to check on health.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:53.040
And we also kept an eye on the animals to look at their behavior as well, to see if there was any negative effects, because there was a bit of speculation around about it having neurological effects on the animals.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:06:08.000
But uh all the evidence for this particular moxidectin thus far is that it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so that it shouldn't have neurological effects, unlike some of the other um chemicals out there that are used in pesticides and insecticides.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:15.920
So when you're looking at the plasma, so how much sardectin actually entered a bloodstream?
00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.519
It was probably a lot lower than I was expecting.
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:27.360
Like I didn't expect it to be huge because it was a topical dose versus doing something subcutaneously and putting it directly into the bloodstream.
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.839
Um, but it was much, much lower than I thought.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.240
So, what were the results?
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:42.160
So our maximum, our the peak that it reached in the plasma was on average 0.5 nanograms per mil of plasma.
00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:42.800
Yes.
00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:44.720
I would like to compare that.
00:06:44.959 --> 00:07:00.480
So if you're looking at the research that was done by DATH in 2011, in the southern hair-nosed bombards, they gave a subcutaneous injection of 0.2 milligram per kilo.
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:06.399
And if that is a 30 kilo bombard, that equals then six milligrams.
00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:15.279
So six milligrams versus uh 100 mil, which 100 mil equals 500 milligrams.
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:29.759
So we're comparing six milligrams versus 500 milligram topical in the subcutaneous injections using six milligram, they got 98.6 nanogram per mil.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:37.519
Yeah, and we used 500 milligrams and we only got 0.5 nanogram per mil.
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:39.519
That's huge.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.439
Yes, it's a huge difference.
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:50.240
So we're talking about the amounts that actually entered through the skin are fractions, like they're just detectable levels, aren't they?
00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:55.439
Yeah, yeah, very, very small compared to doing it subcutaneously.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:05.600
So basically it's going onto the skin and and staying on the skin and not crossing into the bloodstream as much as if you do it via subcutaneous injection.
00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:07.199
So where does it go?
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:13.759
Um, well, some of it does go in, and then when it goes in, it gets metabolized and excreted out.
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.480
Um, luckily enough, moxidectin actually likes to bind to fat.
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:27.680
So it binds to it and then it goes out with the food, basically binds onto the food and off it goes and gets excreted out quite well and quite easily.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:33.600
Otherwise, it stays on the skin until it sort of disintegrates over time because it's a naturally occurring chemical.
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.840
It will break down and it doesn't have as much of a negative effect in the environment as some of our other pesticides.
00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:41.840
So is it safe to use?
00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:43.759
It is safe to use.
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.240
There is no possible of any toxicity using 100 mil doses?
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:50.080
No, not this far.
00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.279
We have not found any evidence of toxicity on wombats.
00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:54.559
Yeah, yes.
00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.679
So CK levels, what does that show you?
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.879
Yes, so our CK levels came out quite low.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:05.200
So that's creatinine kinase, and this is one of our indicators of stress.
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.559
So we use that as a measure of stress in animals.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:21.600
If you are darting kangaroos, for example, to collect blood samples or do something on them, their CK levels will be in the thousands or tens of thousands because they get quite stressed when you're doing that.
00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.080
But in our wombats, they were quite low.
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:25.600
They were, I think they're only a few hundred.
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:26.399
I'd have to look at that.
00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.799
Yeah, I've got it here, 109.5.
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:30.639
109.5.
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:49.840
Yeah, and then we're looking at if you compare that with healthy wombats in the wild that were captured via either chasing, they were netted, or they were captured via um a cage, their CK levels were 1800.
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.159
One tenth of yeah.
00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:53.759
Yes, one tenth.
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.000
So what did we do to keep the stress levels that low?
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:11.840
Well, we're lucky that we worked with an amazing carer who knows wombats very well and understands behaviour, and snuck up behind them very calmly and gave them an injection of zolotil to sedate them.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:20.000
Unlike some of the other methods, as you've mentioned, like darting or jumping off the back of a ute and throwing a net around them, that's very stressful.
00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:27.200
Uh, everything that we did was very calm and very quiet, and yeah, didn't chase them and didn't scare them.
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.480
So we kept them as stress-free as possible while we were doing it.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:33.200
Do you think that related treatment?
00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:34.639
Yes.
00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:42.639
So Yeah, well, having having an infection would also put their stress levels up as well.
00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:49.679
Their cortisol levels would be quite high as well because they'd be stressed out and their body's in an immune response.
00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:51.840
So they would be quite high as well.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:01.039
So ideally, you want to keep those stress levels as low as possible because they're already in a state of distress and their body's trying to fight off an infection.
00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.279
So anything we can do to keep them stress-free would is ideal.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:11.679
This is really interesting about that it doesn't go through the skin.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.200
Are there any other animals that are similar?
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:21.039
Like we talked about giraffes, we talked about chameleons, that's all are they similar?
00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:29.519
No, I think the absorption into the camels and the giraffes that we looked at was higher, like the the amount that went across into the plasma was higher.
00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.399
But still lower than the cattle?
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:34.960
Still lower than the cattle, yes.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.759
Yeah.
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:46.080
So wildlife are probably a little bit different in the sense that, you know, with cattle and sheep and and production animals, we've spent a long time breeding them to make them a particular way.
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.919
But also, generally speaking, our Eutherian animals have thinner skin than our marsupials.
00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.039
They're a bit tougher.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:58.480
And wombats in particular are very tough and have very tough, thick skin.
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.759
And we don't know very much about their skin.
00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:13.679
There's been little bits and pieces done on marsupials in general, and some has included wombats about how the thickness of their skin and the cells and also the immune cells that they have in their skin.
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.080
So that's actually something that we're currently working on.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.879
Oh, can we get any uh ideas?
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:20.960
Any hints, or you can't talk about it.
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:30.799
Yeah, I won't give away all my uh secrets just yet, but skin is something that we are looking at from a sense of an anatomical sense, but also an immune sense as well.
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.679
Yeah, I was going to ask, what is the difference here?
00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:38.639
I mean, if you're looking at a wombat and you think about their behavior, it makes sense to me.
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:49.039
A wombat live underground, they uh their behavior is they're fighting, territorial fighting, their mating ritual is pretty brutal.
00:12:49.919 --> 00:13:00.000
So, of course, they're going to need a skin that will expel anything, or they'll get gone infections all the time just from little wounds and living underground.
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:11.759
I would like to know how much do you know about the difference in skin in Joey versus subadults to adults?
00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:13.200
Not that much.
00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:19.919
There's been I think all of the stuff that I've looked at in skin's been done in adults.
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:31.600
There's a few papers around, or a lot of papers around, uh, of developmental biology of marsupials, but they don't often say a lot about the skin.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:43.759
But over time, I think their skin would start out very thin and and relatively porous and then get less porous and more tough over time as they develop.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:48.320
Because it's, you know, they're born, you know, at the equivalent of a nine-week-old human fetus.
00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:51.440
So it's very soft skin.
00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:58.000
And I think this is a lie if I say this, but I can't remember if they can breathe through their skin when they're first born.
00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:03.200
Yeah, we talked about that with uh Julie in uh in a previous podcast.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.519
There you go, she would know all about that.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:28.240
Amanda and I was actually talking just the other day about if you take a just say 10 kilo bombat that is raised from a pinky in care who is not exposed to wombat borrows and doesn't live outside full time, take a 10 kilo wombat that is still with its mum.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.559
Their fur, their skin, everything is so different about them.
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:42.480
Do you think it changes how development stage versus environmental exposure?
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:54.080
It'd probably be a bit of both, because you know, it'd be a development over time of their skin, you know, starting out very soft, very delicate, and then getting tougher.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:03.039
And their fur would probably start out quite that, you know, that baby fur is like soft and fuzzy and really, and then they have very quite coarse fur when they're adults.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.600
So there'd be that developmental happening.
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:19.759
Um, but also if you put them out in the environment, they're being exposed to dirt and bugs and microbes and bacteria and stuff like that, which changes their microbiome of their skin and also their feces and things like that.
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:21.120
So internally and externally.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.159
So it'd probably be a little bit of both working on them.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:25.120
Yeah.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:35.840
Going back to the research, what do you see as an ideal treatment for mange in wild adult wombats?
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:48.159
Well, it's good because we're trying to create as little stress as possible, treat them as quickly as we can, and cure it as quickly as we can so that they're not suffering for a long period of time.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.480
You know, lots of small doses means you have to go out constantly and putting on small doses, small doses.
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.360
And if you're doing it for months on end, that's not ideal.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.480
So ideally, you want to get out there, get it done as quickly as possible.
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.320
Wombats like to move around.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:04.799
So if you get a large dose on and one dose happens to work, that's great.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:12.559
You're giving it a you're giving it a fighting chance rather than putting lots of little doses on and needing to do it for you know six months or something like that.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:20.879
So ideally, if you can go out, do it with a long pole or use a burrow flap or something like that, get it on without disturbing the wombat too much.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:26.799
And, you know, a couple of doses, maybe three, um, and it should be cured, hopefully.
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.080
All the mites will be dead.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.000
Where does the mite live?
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:42.480
The mite burrows into the epidermis, and they don't feed off blood like ticks or leeches or anything like that, but they feed off the serum that that comes through from the dermis through into the epidermis.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:49.279
So that doesn't that make sense that we shouldn't aim for a systemic treatment?
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.360
Isn't it better to hit them from the outside?
00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.159
I think so personally, but there'd probably be other people who don't agree with that.
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:10.000
So it's good to bind in either serum or plasma or whatever, and then yeah, and then come out through the the pores that the or the burrows that the mites essentially make so that they can feed on that serum.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.559
And they also eat the dead skin and stuff like that as well.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:12.799
Yeah.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:21.519
And then create lots more dead skin by you know, all the poop and if you had to do this research again, would you change anything?
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.359
I I don't think I would.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.799
I think I think we did a good job of it.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:31.200
Yeah.
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.480
Um I'm completely biased, of course.
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:35.200
Uh yeah.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:36.000
I do too.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:37.680
I think I think we did a good job.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:42.559
Like it'll, you know, ideally you'd like to have as many animals as you could possibly have.
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:50.640
And it would have been good to do all different sizes and then have a look at we if we could change the dose rate and get the same success.
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:57.039
Like if we should scale it down and scale it up for different sized animals and males versus females.
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:57.519
Yes.
00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:06.319
And and I would have liked to have looked at how it affects mums with bubs as well, whether there was any going passing through milk and things like that.
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.880
So you'd have to milk a wombat, but you know, yeah, sillier things have been done.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:20.480
We did consider that we didn't have the ethics approval for because we did have a mother that we had to exclude from the project.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:27.279
Yeah, they always like to do things like that to us, turn up with a baby, and it's like don't want to be a participant.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:27.759
Okay.
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:29.759
You have to go.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:37.759
Do we need to treat them the way this method is and consider the life cycle?
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:44.559
So if we're putting a huge dose on externally, it goes into the epidermis.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:56.319
If that, if they have mild range, if they if you manage to kill all the females, I mean males will be easy to kill, they're on the surface, but they're gone.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:10.480
If you can get to all those females and they are dead, then the eggs don't die, of course, but if those eggs hatch within the three days, they hatch within two to three days.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:18.480
If there is enough sidectin left on the skin from the 100 mil dose and they die, isn't that it?
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:19.519
Yes.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.519
I would think so.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:34.240
As long as they're yeah, as long as there's enough on them that's inhibiting the mites from living because they're yeah, they go and they ingest it and then yeah, it opens all the little channels in their body and they basically die.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.400
It's like an electrical overload.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:37.599
Yes, yeah.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:46.720
We have been successful with one dose of sardectin, 100% confirmed, which of course it's not published, and that makes sense.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:47.680
It can be done.
00:19:47.839 --> 00:20:02.079
And it also in the research that you published, we had two wombats that had mange, and they were treated in two weeks, three doses, yep, and they made a full recovery with skin scraping and everything.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:02.480
Yeah.
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:22.799
And Haley, you may not have an answer to this, but what would you say about the work that I can see being done at the moment with trying to use nanotechnology to get more of whatever substance is?
00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:28.559
Do you think that's a good way of going, given what we've seen?
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:30.880
It's progress.
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:50.000
And it's uh it's good for if we need to change treatments, because if the mites start building up enough resistance, we are going to have to start looking at using other sources, and maybe it is better to use nanotechnology to take it in so and then treat systemically.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:58.720
It will treat systemically will still work to kill the mites because that's how the subcutaneous doses of moxidectin and ivomectin work.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:11.759
Um, but I'm also interested to see with the nanotechnology because some stuff has been done in I think goats and sheep looking at using zinc in nanotechnology for helping recovery from mange.
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:28.160
So it'd be really good to see if we could do something like that so that we give the wombats a dose of um moxidectin, and then we give them a dose of this nano zinc to help their fur recovery and skin recovery, because it's really important for recovery in skin and fur.
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:42.000
So I'm hoping that that that sort of nanotechnology will start moving us in that direction to get some sort of treatment options and open up that area of like how we can treat and how we can assist recovery.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.839
Do we need to do a whole heap more research?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:50.960
What's the difference is in masupal versus eutherian animals when it comes to medication?
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.359
Yeah.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:52.400
With everything.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.599
There's the people think you know, they see kangaroos outside.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759
There's kangaroos outside my office today bouncing around, and we think you.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.279
Know the general public think, oh, we know heaps about kangaroos, but we actually know very little.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.079
And it's like all our marsupials, that's the problem.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:13.039
We know so little about them in every aspect of their biology.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.359
All of that basic stuff is missing.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:25.519
Because when you know white people came to Australia, marsupials were considered um very rudimentary or very unevolved, so they didn't really care about them.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:34.960
There was a lot of hunting and a lot of killing, and it took a long time for that to shift and for us to learn more and more about them, but we're still lacking so much information.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:42.720
So when it comes to medication and treatment, yep, definitely there's a lot that we don't know about their basic biology that would actually assist us.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:52.880
In some ways, marsupials are much more tolerant of certain things, and we can do a bit more than we can do on Eutherians, and in other ways, they're probably a little bit less tolerant.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.000
Interesting.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.480
Where have you presented these papers?
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:02.799
Uh, so I've presented this research at the International Mammal Congress in Alaska.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:12.160
Um, the Australian Wildlife Rehabilitation Conference was in Perth, and I also presented at the Australian Mammal Society Conference.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:13.359
That's amazing.
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.920
And what feedback have you had from presenting those papers?
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:20.160
Oh, really positive feedback.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.680
People are really excited to see the research and really interested in it.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:33.119
Uh, at the International Mammal Congress, I got to meet someone who works on gorillas, and she was telling me about treating mangin gorillas, and they shoot them with dart guns and with ivermectin.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.880
I'm like, oh wow.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:36.319
Hang on, hang on.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.640
They're shooting the gorillas with ivermectin into the muscle.
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:41.839
Into the muscle.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.599
So not subcutaneously.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:44.880
Not subcutaneously.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.039
And I said that, I said, oh wow, intramuscular.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.319
We yeah, anything we do is is either topical or subcutaneous.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.720
Yes.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:51.759
Yeah, intramuscular.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.039
But I suppose you probably don't want to get that close to a wild gorilla.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:55.920
Interesting.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:04.559
And it'd probably be a big thing apart from the gorillas are endangered, but also if gorillas live near humans and it and it being transferable to humans and being scabies and that.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:06.480
So yeah, it's a big thing over there.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:07.200
How interesting.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.000
Is it the same mite with the it is it is the same mite.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:20.400
So there was there there was some thought that they were different variants or subspecies of mites that only affected dogs and humans and things like that.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.200
But no, it can it's the same mite.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:28.640
It may be different variants, but more research needs to be done on their genetics to know for sure.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.279
But any any of them, if they get on you, you you can get scabies.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:44.480
That's fascinating to hear that, you know, the poor old gorillas have exactly the same reaction to, you know, mange mites that I get from little wombats.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.720
We are always in need of more funding for wombats.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.240
They are a particularly underfunded species in Australia.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:03.920
So a few years ago, the New South Wales government recognised that sarcoptic mange was a pretty big issue and funded four projects.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:14.319
And those projects have been done, and that's great, and it's contributed to the knowledge base that we have around sarcoptic mange, but there's so much more that needs to be done because it affects the entire population.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.680
And if we lose our wombats, we lose our ecological engineers.
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:28.880
They do a really good job of digging up the soil and creating habitat for other species, but that digging process also helps water infiltration and plants and seeds to grow and things like that.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:31.119
So it's really important that we keep our wombats.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.480
Koalas are really well funded, but wombats just aren't.
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.799
And you know, wombats are cousins to the koalas, so we need to share the love.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:48.880
Oh Marie, that was fascinating.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.920
Yeah, and lovely.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.559
Oh, so good, you know.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:58.160
There was another person we mentioned during that interview, and that was Dr.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:25:59.039
Julie Old.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:25:59.440
Yes.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.599
What can you tell us or the listeners about her?
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:14.480
Yes, so Associate Professor Julie Old from Western Sydney University, she's an expert in masupal biology and immunology, and we have had her on our podcast before.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.799
She was in masupal development and also in WOMSAT.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:27.680
Um now, Marie, you were the one who recruited the volunteer wombats and have been following them.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:28.799
How are they going?
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:30.400
Oh, they're brilliant.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:32.160
They're brilliant.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.079
I still apologize to them.
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.000
But I say you did a good job.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.039
And they're not cranky with you, they're not running away because you They've forgiven me.
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.119
They've forgiven me.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.880
That's lovely, that's lovely, and it's great to hear they're doing well.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.119
So tell me about the two wombats that had mange.
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:53.359
Yeah, they're doing really well.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.200
They both recovered, of course, and they haven't had mange since.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.599
They only had three doses over two weeks.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:03.839
So day one, seven, and fourteen.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:05.039
That's two weeks.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.079
Three doses.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.960
And we even at the time, we even said they don't need a third dose.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.279
We were so sure that they don't have mange anymore.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.720
It was all healed up.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:24.480
We gave the third dose for the purpose of seeing the bloods to see three doses of 100 mil to see what they did.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:33.759
And the funny thing is the results showed that their peak plasma concentration were half of the healthy wombats.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:49.119
So they only had a 0.25 nanogram per mil of moxidectin after three doses, seven days apart, that's that's it's just not going through.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:54.400
It's not entering through, even when you're repeating it 100 mil uh weekly.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:28:10.640
And I guess one of the other things is that if you know five grams per litre of moxidectin works on eutherean animals, we could actually change that quite simply to you know 50 grams per liter.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.039
And then people wouldn't be freaked out.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:13.680
Yes.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:16.720
Um that's the strange thing.
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.319
But then you wonder, would that work as well?
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:31.599
Because you you know, because if this is a distribution thing that is going on then we don't know those questions.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:32.880
Of course.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.720
So there is still room for so much improvement.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.440
Yeah, like would a higher concentration of moxidectin be better?
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.440
Or would it be better has to do with the more oil?
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:46.480
Exactly.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:47.759
Exactly.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:29:00.720
I think one of the things we didn't talk about was one of the things that you and I looked at when looking at blood and other health of those animals.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:15.119
We were noticing to begin with that technically moxydectin should be being absorbed into the systemic system and it should have killed off wounds and parasites.
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.319
Yes, yes.
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:25.039
And that was one thing that uh hit us to at the beginning going, hang on, something's wrong here.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.400
Because we collected feces, we of course looked at it under the microscope.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:39.759
And amazing because we're all kind of thinking that we're treating uh parasites or internal parasites with a poron.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:43.519
It doesn't work in one adult wombats.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:55.839
We saw there were a decrease of strongloidis, ascaris, strongile, there were a decrease on day three and four.
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.799
By day five, it was absolutely back to normal.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:03.279
They were never parasite-free from a dose of 100 mil of sidectin.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:13.200
There was a this decrease, which correspond with the results of what we saw in the when we when it all came out in the from the university.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:21.839
But that I found that fascinating because that was long before we actually had found results.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.440
Something is very wrong.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:43.440
We do treat little velvet, like these the tiny little Joeys we're coming into care, they can be treated like with the porn.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
We often use ivomectin on them.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.200
I and it sort of works.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.519
I have stopped doing that.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:59.519
I all I never use poron anymore, ever on anyone but I use oral because I know what to see.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:01.599
For intestinal parasite.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:06.960
Absolutely, for intestinal parasite, I would never use a poron no matter what age anymore.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:14.240
I mean, in a pinky, yeah, I I still would go for a safe safe oral dose.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.000
So, but yeah, that's something we need to look into.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:38.000
And that goes back to what we were talking to Haley about the skin, the age of the wombat, how much is going through at what ages, because we were testing on wild, mature adults out in the field who'd been out there for a while, and they are the ones who got the mange in the field.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.000
Of course, of course, yeah.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:45.279
So you can't do the research on little Joey's or like 10 kilo wombats in care.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:57.680
That's why I asked her that question because then you get you don't get a true skin of the wombats that have the mange in real life, exactly, yep.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:09.279
And that's the important thing that you know doing something where you're looking at captive animals versus free-living animals can be totally different.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.519
And juveniles versus adults.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.279
Oh, absolutely.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:21.839
And that is it for this time, and now over to the bombats who will have the last say.
