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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, my name is David Lorimer, and this is the Wise Scientist's podcast with Professor Ravi Revindra, speaking from Del Housie in Canada, and his guest today is Eva Silitz, who's coming from Sweden.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm good to hand straight over to Ravi, and I will take part in the conversation as the theme is evolved.
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[SPEAKER_02]: However, I'm delighted to meet you and it may be helpful just generally to have your own impression about you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How would you say his wisdom separate from or different from what usually people associate with intelligence?
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[SPEAKER_01]: moral maturity that you can be extremely intelligent but you might not be so morally mature and responsible and concerned to the consequences of what you are creating or so I would say that it has to do with consciousness and moral responsibility.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's for me, wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But really, among any of the great scientists, who would you think or consider as a wise scientist?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's really the issue about how do we cultivate wise scientists, because there are some obviously very intelligent scientists around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I was going to say somebody contemporary that I think is really why scientists is the Swedish environmentalist, Yuan Rockström, who is combining science with responsibility and
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[SPEAKER_01]: promoting change, so we can meet the challenges that we are facing in a more wise way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you are Oakstrom is, for me, one of the most important people,
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[SPEAKER_01]: in terms of his method of making this research in planetary boundaries and trying to enlighten us how to live with the limits of resources in a
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[SPEAKER_01]: balanced way and so, but if I was going to say, you know, from the past or people that I feel are, I admire really as why scientists, I would probably say Albert Switzer is on my number one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Albert Switzer is also somebody who I think had a real sensitivity for life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Gratial Carson was very early in her alarms and being aware of the precariousness in how we deal with nature.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there are several people that have been with the blowers very early in trying to wake us up for our
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[SPEAKER_01]: Interconnected in our interrelationship with nature.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just tell you as an aside, a very other amusing story about Schweitzer and Einstein.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Schweitzer was on a train, and somebody asked for his autograph, thinking he was Albert Einstein.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so he signed the piece of paper, Albert Schweitzer, friend of Albert Einstein.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is wonderful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is so delightful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Great job at being so absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, we would all agree that we need to cultivate why scientists, because as you probably read what I had written initially,
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[SPEAKER_02]: John Polani and Nobel Prize winner saying that in the 20th century science has done more harm to humanity than anything else because in connection with technology it ends up being basically dealing with military or industry and therefore it's not really concerned about welfare of human beings.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or trying to cultivate the sort of attitude that you're suggesting would make a wise scientist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But then how do we proceed now?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Given the fact that that is what we all wish for, namely to cultivate wise scientists.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you're very much emphasized what you call the living prayer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be good for people to hear a little bit about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise one can, I can use that expression, but I'm not clarifying what it is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that derives from my first meeting with Jonah Soak, which was such a turning point in my life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what made him so extraordinary for me was his mental intellectual clarity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And yet he was a very warm and compassionate and concerned human being and when he spelled out his cosmology when I first met him and I didn't know who he was or anything about him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just was called to go there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that moved me so deeply, I felt that he was revealing a true system for me, I mean that was the effect he had upon me, that I felt that I want to commit my life to this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have no choice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just said yes, but I was on my own.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have been living in the wild in us because I haven't had anyone to collaborate with because I was one of the few ones that really dedicated my life to it from the very first moment and he supported me by
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[SPEAKER_01]: encouraging my interest and it was spending much time and attention to the things that concerned me and the projects I was working on and so it has been like a living
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[SPEAKER_01]: theories and knowledge as a scientist into practical projects and that's what I've been doing ever since when I came back from Sweden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's in a sense like a living prayer in my attempt to create
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[SPEAKER_01]: projects, models, living labs.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I set up projects and I've been lucky enough to manage financially to get it rolling.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it has been a movement in prayers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see what
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[SPEAKER_02]: how do we assist other people who are likely to become scientists?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, one doesn't know this right in the very beginning of somebody's life, whether they will go towards science or go towards something else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But those who are likely to move towards science, how do we assist them to become wise scientists?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is required?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that we need to be more open about talking and sharing our sensitivity to the precariousness of life and that we do have a deeper responsibility.
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[SPEAKER_01]: your receptivity and your humility for something that is greater than yourself and that you feel that you are part of an interconnectedness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that you can contribute to a positive change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's some simple, but I don't know exactly how I could.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've been searching to find platforms or create meeting places for that kind of dialogue and experiences by bringing people together in one way or the other,
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[SPEAKER_01]: working with educational projects that I have tried new forms to have the more experiential.
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[SPEAKER_01]: kind of learning, where you experience through your body or your experience, this connection with something that touches you deeper, and in that way, evoke an interest to be a change agent or bring out the best in you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I come in there briefly, Ravi?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm reminded of a story about Christian immortality and Fritch off Capra, and it's in one of his books, and I remember being struck by it, and he said, how do I reconcile being a scientist with being human being?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And Christian immortality said to him, you're a human being first and a scientist second.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that brings back, brings us back to your very fundamental point in this podcast series is that developing wisdom is a human and spiritual development.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a scientific development, it's something which happens because you are developing your being as a human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and that's what I mean that it's a maturation process, like a butterfly, I mean you don't become a butterfly directly, you have to go through certain stages of development and I see that becoming wise is that
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[SPEAKER_01]: path and each one has a unique path.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's nothing that you can really say that you should do this and that you have to find out yourself what is true for you in bringing out your gifts or what you have to serve the world with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But you what I see right from the very beginning
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[SPEAKER_02]: I see this even what happened to my own two kids.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have a daughter and a son in the schools the whole emphasis is competition so that you can do get better grades than the other person than you can go to a better school or a better college, better scholarship.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the whole things become much more to do with competition and doing better and better in the examination.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I see.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So my impression is that the
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[SPEAKER_02]: This real transformation needs to take place at the very beginning of education.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I agree absolutely that education is key.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have an education system either that recognize or encourage to pay attention to the individual and also
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lack of a foundation of values that nurture that kind of education.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that is a real problem.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I see because it's so much based upon the intellect and achievements.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I...
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[SPEAKER_01]: been trying to work within schools and making internet projects and things like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the creativity is a very good way to spark the inner being of students.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, if you, and I was the other day in a jail here in Stockholm where
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[SPEAKER_01]: for five weeks, and at our last session, we had a Swedish music producer who had been in some quantum for 11 years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when he shared his experience in some quantum where he was capable of,
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[SPEAKER_01]: bringing together a music studio for young gang prisoners, and it's brutal, the climate is brutal between these gangs, but he sort of
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[SPEAKER_01]: tore down the barriers through his music studio and the change through using music as a channel for creativity and truth and bringing out the best in these guys and so he was released from
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[SPEAKER_01]: life sentence in some quantum because of his work with hundreds of young prisoners that had turned around and found a new path because of what they were able to get engaged in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think creativity, that's what I mean, that if you can find tough into people in various ways to connect deeper with themselves and then how they can become visible for themselves in creative ways, that's a way to also encourage positive change and true change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And also through yoga, it's a good, it's a really good path working with yoga and presence, and I think that's one way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There are different ways to awaken the spirit and the value
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[SPEAKER_01]: or oneself in a new way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the thing with Jonah Soch.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He saw me in a way that no one else has seen me and I was 22 years old and he paid attention to that instantly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I ask a sort of lateral question, which is really a question to both of you, is that Einstein was a violinist, wasn't he?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so was Gerald Adelman, another Nobel Prize winner.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder whether there's any correlation between wise scientists and scientists who are all same musicians?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what was he a musician?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Was Jonah some musician?
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He said, once asked to explain his evolutionary philosophy, said, it's a poem consisting of two lines, the sigmoid curve.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the curve going upwards and then comes the inflection points and then it moves a plane off and and so he was I think he was probably more of a poet in a way the way he talked and used analogies and conveyed ideas in images and so he was very imaginative
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[SPEAKER_01]: One he was describing, thanks, but there was a very strong resonance in our way of thinking and perceiving, and so I mean I didn't have a background in science at all, but I could follow his structure of thinking and his way of thought.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting to notice that all three of us practice yoga and you just mentioned yourself that you bring yoga practice for other people to participate.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So is there something specifically coming from yoga that assists people to
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[SPEAKER_02]: to relate with the others, which is not brought by other athletics sort of and retaking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You come into a sense of community with the groups that you are teaching, and
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it changes, it becomes like a retreat place within the present prison.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they love coming into that sense of peace, calmness, and respect, and dignity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is the true benefit of it all because it changes the climate, and they are really friendly to each other and
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I now had young people and mixed with older prisoners, which was a very, very good combination.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think if the prison system were wise or are wise, they should mix.
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[SPEAKER_01]: older and younger, because the older one have respect in the younger ones, like no one else can maintain with this really young, you know, they are like 15 or 16, now it has gone down in the edge groups and have no respect for anything.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But you see, here is, let me mention what seems to be a problem, even I see for especially in USA or in Canada also, even practicing yoga now has become as if it's a competition.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How long can you stand on one leg?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to teach that in prison at all, on your own.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm saying is just the word yoga itself doesn't convey anything.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's really the question of who is bringing it, who is teaching it, what is the attitude.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise certainly as I see it, at least in North America.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yoga has become just a way of increasing your sex appeal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is not really connecting with anything real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, and that's not yoga.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I would agree with you, but what I'm saying is how do we, because the whole overall cultural attitude is everything, how you do, you compete with others and somehow get the first prize, that kind of attitude.
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[SPEAKER_02]: whether it is yoga or music or theatre or anything that takes over.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, unfortunately, and that has nothing to do with the inner aspect of, and it's hard to maintain that, for instance, for the head office at the prison system, they think they know what they should give the prisoners, and they know how to make it financially less costly and blah, blah, and.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they missed the whole point and before I retired, I said that you have to maintain a certain level on how these prison guards, because we are teaching prison guards to teach yoga with inmates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like in UK, for instance, or in the U.S. either where you have properly trained yoga teachers that come in, but that's not the situation within, and that requires that you have very, very qualified.
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[SPEAKER_01]: people that are training the prison guards, but so I'm not so impressed with how it's going, but fortunately the person who was my colleague, she's working on the umbrella of the prison yoga project in the US and they are
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[SPEAKER_01]: internationally connected, and they have the requirements for proper training for all yoga teachers and persons, and that's a very, very important aspect that you are serving this, you are offering this as a kind of pathway to move from within.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me, really, at the heart of yoga or really in a way what we are all wishing for, is how to bring both the requirements and the abilities of my mind, feelings and body together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: rather than that the mind is just wholly occupying me or just the body takes over then there are athletic competitions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How do we bring also the heart to co-ordinate with the mind and the body?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Seems to me that is really the call.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on the person who is teaching that they have this
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[SPEAKER_01]: quality of depth and purity of heart and that they really want to offer this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in the inmates' days sensed this immediately if you have this quality or not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I have never had any problems with discipline.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been...
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[SPEAKER_01]: teaching for 25 years and so I think that if you are honest and of course you have to have a certain natural authority in what you're doing because that brings safety.
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[SPEAKER_01]: into the group that you are in command of what you're doing but you are offering it as something authentically from yourself and that connects you know to feelings and I think I had one of my best days in prisons the other day when I had this music producer David Jesse with me to share
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[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely one of the most special moments in my life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a real receipt that it can work in very holistic way and everybody was just totally present.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's wonderful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't say it's easy, but it can make it happen if you have the right constellation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But there are some really wonderful people working in this area.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Besselwander Kolk, you know, Besselwander Kolk, the body keeps the score.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He has written a book, the body.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he has meant a lot to my colleague, who's now taking over.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And passionate about his work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: James Fox, who founded the prison system in the U.S. also, fantastic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And be the Kiran BD.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know Kiran BD?
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[SPEAKER_01]: She who started the Vipassana meditations in the Delhi State prison many, many years ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know who she was?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you David?
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, I haven't heard of her.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh fantastic!
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[SPEAKER_01]: She became the CEO of what she said for the Delhi prison which is I mean 10,000 inmates and she managed to bring in, we pass on our meditations for hundreds of inmates at the same time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was, if you if you google on Kiran Bede
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[SPEAKER_01]: You will find a remarkable human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She turned me rashly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what she did was just impossible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she became also the head of the police force.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For, I mean, unheard of a woman, both the Delhi prison, stay prison, and the police force for Delhi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, nothing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was unstoppable, but I don't think she had an easy life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She really risked herself on, but she did a great job.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She turned things around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was a lawyer, so she was tough, you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't sidestep her at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was a better firm in her rights and what she could do and everything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she did it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think one of the directions of the conversation, I think is the wisdom in any field implies the integration of mind, heart and will and having a kind of spiritual connection and inspiration.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, do you think that is that true?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to follow you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely, I mean, you have to walk your talk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have to, I try to, it depends on what I try to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Make space for the right start of the day every day, you know, to nourish myself and take care of myself in a way that I set the intention or I have a good beginning to
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[SPEAKER_00]: to your day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's very important.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think probably all three of us have a routine that starts on day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know you do, Raby, with your... What do you do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do some yoga exercises and then I have meditation and then I go for a walk with a dog and so I think it's very good to have a routine that nourishes you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, that you take care of your spirit and your inner self, like you're brushing your teeth, or you have that procedure of being grounded before you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I actually recommend to everybody, but only because I myself practice it, not just recommend to others, that every day, in addition to doing whatever physical kind of yoga they need to do, just to keep healthy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: to take at least 20 minutes to 30 minutes of quietly sitting, or even if they go for a walk but not talking to anybody, just inner quiet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is really the heart of meditation, whatever we mean by meditation.
30:31.319 --> 30:32.641
[SPEAKER_02]: Allow something else to do.
30:32.661 --> 30:33.462
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you.
30:33.802 --> 30:34.743
[SPEAKER_02]: Resonate in you.
30:36.350 --> 30:39.473
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm fortunate to have a space on my own.
30:39.674 --> 30:44.519
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my sacred space and so I can have that quietness.
30:44.779 --> 30:46.901
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely necessary.
30:47.282 --> 30:48.243
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to have it.
30:49.037 --> 30:53.600
[SPEAKER_02]: I would refuse to have breakfast until I actually sit down.
30:53.660 --> 30:54.281
[SPEAKER_02]: No, absolutely.
30:54.321 --> 30:54.941
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
30:56.763 --> 31:10.093
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think one would think from the drift of our conversation that the wise scientists were implying or even referring to, they must have an active in a life.
31:11.193 --> 31:15.857
[SPEAKER_00]: One would have thought because I don't think you can be wise without that or am I wrong?
31:16.289 --> 31:34.859
[SPEAKER_01]: Jonah Soak, he talked about the necessity for contemplation, I mean being quiet and he also said, I told you, he talked about the need to sit together and be quiet and feel together.
31:37.100 --> 31:44.064
[SPEAKER_01]: He thought that was very important also to be able to just sit and
31:45.616 --> 31:47.278
[SPEAKER_01]: feel each other's presence.
31:49.640 --> 31:54.205
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe that's a good place to wind up the conversation.
31:54.225 --> 31:55.886
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:56.127 --> 31:57.288
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a very interesting thing.
31:57.308 --> 31:59.049
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to say to anything else.
31:59.690 --> 32:00.231
[SPEAKER_02]: Well indeed.
32:00.291 --> 32:02.773
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was going to suggest.
32:03.354 --> 32:08.939
[SPEAKER_01]: My challenge now is to try to share.
32:09.780 --> 32:32.777
[SPEAKER_01]: my experience and being a witness for what Jonas had to offer humanity which I feel has not been recognized at all and this has also been a task that I felt for a long time but I haven't felt ready to do it because it's
32:34.277 --> 32:45.041
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a sacred to me and I don't want to come out in a wrong way to combine this big theory that he provided me with.
32:45.642 --> 32:47.803
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that in itself.
32:48.243 --> 32:53.785
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a deeper aspect how he touched my deepest self.
32:54.665 --> 33:19.519
[SPEAKER_01]: And I became transformed by being contagious, but his whole vision, you know, it was invaded by this possibility of a new consciousness that will help us serve us to evolve into a new phase of civilization.
33:22.020 --> 33:46.357
[SPEAKER_01]: To combine that from a personal perspective in a more existential way and balance that with his great theory I felt very relieved when I could write the essay for you and go more deeply into what his big vision was.
33:51.247 --> 33:56.170
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you didn't fairly well, actually, I was very touched.
33:57.110 --> 34:14.620
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I think it's so important to try to keep the simplicity in the complicity through being just a simple human being and sharing my path.
34:15.446 --> 34:16.930
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you very much, Eva.
34:17.191 --> 34:17.933
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Rabi.
34:18.534 --> 34:21.723
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Eva.
00:01.018 --> 00:01.478
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
00:16.183 --> 00:31.176
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, my name is David Lorimer, and this is the Wise Scientist's podcast with Professor Ravi Revindra, speaking from Del Housie in Canada, and his guest today is Eva Silitz, who's coming from Sweden.
00:31.817 --> 00:38.102
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm good to hand straight over to Ravi, and I will take part in the conversation as the theme is evolved.
00:44.739 --> 00:52.986
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I'm delighted to meet you and it may be helpful just generally to have your own impression about you.
00:53.486 --> 01:01.673
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you say his wisdom separate from or different from what usually people associate with intelligence?
01:13.543 --> 01:40.843
[SPEAKER_01]: moral maturity that you can be extremely intelligent but you might not be so morally mature and responsible and concerned to the consequences of what you are creating or so I would say that it has to do with consciousness and moral responsibility.
01:41.364 --> 01:42.885
[SPEAKER_01]: That's for me, wisdom.
01:44.271 --> 01:44.531
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
01:45.832 --> 01:56.037
[SPEAKER_02]: But really, among any of the great scientists, who would you think or consider as a wise scientist?
01:56.117 --> 02:06.022
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's really the issue about how do we cultivate wise scientists, because there are some obviously very intelligent scientists around.
02:07.445 --> 02:28.170
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I was going to say somebody contemporary that I think is really why scientists is the Swedish environmentalist, Yuan Rockström, who is combining science with responsibility and
02:30.230 --> 02:40.923
[SPEAKER_01]: promoting change, so we can meet the challenges that we are facing in a more wise way.
02:41.103 --> 02:45.928
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you are Oakstrom is, for me, one of the most important people,
02:46.609 --> 03:06.968
[SPEAKER_01]: in terms of his method of making this research in planetary boundaries and trying to enlighten us how to live with the limits of resources in a
03:07.808 --> 03:25.742
[SPEAKER_01]: balanced way and so, but if I was going to say, you know, from the past or people that I feel are, I admire really as why scientists, I would probably say Albert Switzer is on my number one.
03:26.562 --> 03:32.787
[SPEAKER_01]: Albert Switzer is also somebody who I think had a real sensitivity for life.
03:34.348 --> 03:46.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Gratial Carson was very early in her alarms and being aware of the precariousness in how we deal with nature.
03:46.976 --> 03:57.964
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are several people that have been with the blowers very early in trying to wake us up for our
04:00.285 --> 04:04.408
[SPEAKER_01]: Interconnected in our interrelationship with nature.
04:06.069 --> 04:11.593
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just tell you as an aside, a very other amusing story about Schweitzer and Einstein.
04:12.133 --> 04:18.938
[SPEAKER_00]: Schweitzer was on a train, and somebody asked for his autograph, thinking he was Albert Einstein.
04:20.639 --> 04:25.701
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he signed the piece of paper, Albert Schweitzer, friend of Albert Einstein.
04:27.342 --> 04:29.343
[SPEAKER_01]: That is wonderful.
04:29.743 --> 04:31.263
[SPEAKER_01]: That is so delightful.
04:31.543 --> 04:31.924
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
04:32.344 --> 04:36.625
[SPEAKER_01]: Great job at being so absolutely.
04:37.826 --> 04:46.589
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, we would all agree that we need to cultivate why scientists, because as you probably read what I had written initially,
04:47.290 --> 05:10.404
[SPEAKER_02]: John Polani and Nobel Prize winner saying that in the 20th century science has done more harm to humanity than anything else because in connection with technology it ends up being basically dealing with military or industry and therefore it's not really concerned about welfare of human beings.
05:11.383 --> 05:16.887
[SPEAKER_02]: or trying to cultivate the sort of attitude that you're suggesting would make a wise scientist.
05:17.407 --> 05:19.128
[SPEAKER_02]: But then how do we proceed now?
05:19.408 --> 05:25.452
[SPEAKER_02]: Given the fact that that is what we all wish for, namely to cultivate wise scientists.
05:26.253 --> 05:29.975
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you're very much emphasized what you call the living prayer.
05:29.995 --> 05:33.397
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be good for people to hear a little bit about it.
05:34.017 --> 05:39.081
[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise one can, I can use that expression, but I'm not clarifying what it is.
05:41.508 --> 05:56.582
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that derives from my first meeting with Jonah Soak, which was such a turning point in my life.
05:56.943 --> 06:06.752
[SPEAKER_01]: And what made him so extraordinary for me was his mental intellectual clarity.
06:07.352 --> 06:25.432
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet he was a very warm and compassionate and concerned human being and when he spelled out his cosmology when I first met him and I didn't know who he was or anything about him.
06:25.532 --> 06:28.015
[SPEAKER_01]: I just was called to go there.
06:30.993 --> 06:49.680
[SPEAKER_01]: that moved me so deeply, I felt that he was revealing a true system for me, I mean that was the effect he had upon me, that I felt that I want to commit my life to this.
06:50.220 --> 06:51.401
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have no choice.
06:51.861 --> 06:56.983
[SPEAKER_01]: I just said yes, but I was on my own.
06:57.063 --> 07:15.853
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have been living in the wild in us because I haven't had anyone to collaborate with because I was one of the few ones that really dedicated my life to it from the very first moment and he supported me by
07:16.733 --> 07:36.739
[SPEAKER_01]: encouraging my interest and it was spending much time and attention to the things that concerned me and the projects I was working on and so it has been like a living
07:46.282 --> 07:56.953
[SPEAKER_01]: theories and knowledge as a scientist into practical projects and that's what I've been doing ever since when I came back from Sweden.
07:56.973 --> 08:02.299
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's in a sense like a living prayer in my attempt to create
08:04.316 --> 08:11.501
[SPEAKER_01]: projects, models, living labs.
08:11.521 --> 08:24.331
[SPEAKER_01]: I set up projects and I've been lucky enough to manage financially to get it rolling.
08:26.232 --> 08:29.614
[SPEAKER_01]: So it has been a movement in prayers.
08:30.515 --> 08:31.095
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see what
08:34.654 --> 08:40.138
[SPEAKER_02]: how do we assist other people who are likely to become scientists?
08:40.178 --> 08:48.344
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, one doesn't know this right in the very beginning of somebody's life, whether they will go towards science or go towards something else.
08:49.244 --> 08:57.811
[SPEAKER_02]: But those who are likely to move towards science, how do we assist them to become wise scientists?
08:58.871 --> 08:59.852
[SPEAKER_02]: What is required?
09:03.276 --> 09:24.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that we need to be more open about talking and sharing our sensitivity to the precariousness of life and that we do have a deeper responsibility.
09:32.580 --> 09:49.753
[SPEAKER_01]: your receptivity and your humility for something that is greater than yourself and that you feel that you are part of an interconnectedness.
09:50.277 --> 09:57.083
[SPEAKER_01]: that you can contribute to a positive change.
09:57.163 --> 10:00.426
[SPEAKER_01]: It's some simple, but I don't know exactly how I could.
10:01.307 --> 10:16.800
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been searching to find platforms or create meeting places for that kind of dialogue and experiences by bringing people together in one way or the other,
10:18.201 --> 10:28.342
[SPEAKER_01]: working with educational projects that I have tried new forms to have the more experiential.
10:29.464 --> 10:48.475
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of learning, where you experience through your body or your experience, this connection with something that touches you deeper, and in that way, evoke an interest to be a change agent or bring out the best in you.
10:48.995 --> 10:50.536
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I come in there briefly, Ravi?
10:50.976 --> 11:06.284
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm reminded of a story about Christian immortality and Fritch off Capra, and it's in one of his books, and I remember being struck by it, and he said, how do I reconcile being a scientist with being human being?
11:07.624 --> 11:12.687
[SPEAKER_00]: And Christian immortality said to him, you're a human being first and a scientist second.
11:14.136 --> 11:24.148
[SPEAKER_00]: And that brings back, brings us back to your very fundamental point in this podcast series is that developing wisdom is a human and spiritual development.
11:24.709 --> 11:31.117
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a scientific development, it's something which happens because you are developing your being as a human being.
11:31.810 --> 11:53.676
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and that's what I mean that it's a maturation process, like a butterfly, I mean you don't become a butterfly directly, you have to go through certain stages of development and I see that becoming wise is that
11:54.153 --> 11:59.394
[SPEAKER_01]: path and each one has a unique path.
11:59.574 --> 12:14.917
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's nothing that you can really say that you should do this and that you have to find out yourself what is true for you in bringing out your gifts or what you have to serve the world with.
12:14.977 --> 12:18.938
[SPEAKER_02]: But you what I see right from the very beginning
12:24.257 --> 12:26.958
[SPEAKER_02]: I see this even what happened to my own two kids.
12:27.638 --> 12:41.903
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a daughter and a son in the schools the whole emphasis is competition so that you can do get better grades than the other person than you can go to a better school or a better college, better scholarship.
12:42.583 --> 12:49.786
[SPEAKER_02]: So the whole things become much more to do with competition and doing better and better in the examination.
12:50.066 --> 12:50.966
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I see.
12:51.106 --> 12:52.607
[SPEAKER_02]: So my impression is that the
12:53.492 --> 13:00.717
[SPEAKER_02]: This real transformation needs to take place at the very beginning of education.
13:01.778 --> 13:07.462
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree absolutely that education is key.
13:07.782 --> 13:19.671
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have an education system either that recognize or encourage to pay attention to the individual and also
13:20.616 --> 13:29.045
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lack of a foundation of values that nurture that kind of education.
13:29.425 --> 13:32.348
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is a real problem.
13:32.528 --> 13:39.815
[SPEAKER_01]: I see because it's so much based upon the intellect and achievements.
13:40.336 --> 13:41.276
[SPEAKER_01]: But I...
13:42.120 --> 13:50.342
[SPEAKER_01]: been trying to work within schools and making internet projects and things like that.
13:50.562 --> 14:01.185
[SPEAKER_01]: And the creativity is a very good way to spark the inner being of students.
14:01.365 --> 14:10.128
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, if you, and I was the other day in a jail here in Stockholm where
14:12.332 --> 14:25.498
[SPEAKER_01]: for five weeks, and at our last session, we had a Swedish music producer who had been in some quantum for 11 years.
14:26.538 --> 14:36.723
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he shared his experience in some quantum where he was capable of,
14:38.341 --> 14:53.379
[SPEAKER_01]: bringing together a music studio for young gang prisoners, and it's brutal, the climate is brutal between these gangs, but he sort of
14:54.584 --> 15:18.020
[SPEAKER_01]: tore down the barriers through his music studio and the change through using music as a channel for creativity and truth and bringing out the best in these guys and so he was released from
15:18.960 --> 15:38.911
[SPEAKER_01]: life sentence in some quantum because of his work with hundreds of young prisoners that had turned around and found a new path because of what they were able to get engaged in.
15:39.871 --> 16:04.250
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think creativity, that's what I mean, that if you can find tough into people in various ways to connect deeper with themselves and then how they can become visible for themselves in creative ways, that's a way to also encourage positive change and true change.
16:05.563 --> 16:14.433
[SPEAKER_01]: And also through yoga, it's a good, it's a really good path working with yoga and presence, and I think that's one way.
16:14.693 --> 16:22.482
[SPEAKER_01]: There are different ways to awaken the spirit and the value
16:23.102 --> 16:25.044
[SPEAKER_01]: or oneself in a new way.
16:25.164 --> 16:28.066
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the thing with Jonah Soch.
16:28.867 --> 16:39.356
[SPEAKER_01]: He saw me in a way that no one else has seen me and I was 22 years old and he paid attention to that instantly.
16:41.751 --> 16:52.934
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I ask a sort of lateral question, which is really a question to both of you, is that Einstein was a violinist, wasn't he?
16:53.014 --> 16:55.734
[SPEAKER_00]: And so was Gerald Adelman, another Nobel Prize winner.
16:56.354 --> 17:02.596
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder whether there's any correlation between wise scientists and scientists who are all same musicians?
17:08.858 --> 17:11.920
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what was he a musician?
17:11.980 --> 17:13.081
[SPEAKER_00]: Was Jonah some musician?
17:13.161 --> 17:16.042
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no.
17:16.102 --> 17:30.571
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, once asked to explain his evolutionary philosophy, said, it's a poem consisting of two lines, the sigmoid curve.
17:31.411 --> 17:56.225
[SPEAKER_01]: the curve going upwards and then comes the inflection points and then it moves a plane off and and so he was I think he was probably more of a poet in a way the way he talked and used analogies and conveyed ideas in images and so he was very imaginative
17:57.385 --> 18:20.378
[SPEAKER_01]: One he was describing, thanks, but there was a very strong resonance in our way of thinking and perceiving, and so I mean I didn't have a background in science at all, but I could follow his structure of thinking and his way of thought.
18:22.015 --> 18:36.239
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting to notice that all three of us practice yoga and you just mentioned yourself that you bring yoga practice for other people to participate.
18:36.999 --> 18:41.840
[SPEAKER_02]: So is there something specifically coming from yoga that assists people to
18:42.815 --> 18:48.078
[SPEAKER_02]: to relate with the others, which is not brought by other athletics sort of and retaking.
18:48.138 --> 18:48.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
18:49.319 --> 18:50.059
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
18:50.099 --> 18:58.985
[SPEAKER_01]: You come into a sense of community with the groups that you are teaching, and
18:59.947 --> 19:06.271
[SPEAKER_01]: So it changes, it becomes like a retreat place within the present prison.
19:07.332 --> 19:18.019
[SPEAKER_01]: So they love coming into that sense of peace, calmness, and respect, and dignity.
19:19.100 --> 19:30.499
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the true benefit of it all because it changes the climate, and they are really friendly to each other and
19:32.967 --> 19:42.838
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I now had young people and mixed with older prisoners, which was a very, very good combination.
19:43.759 --> 19:52.609
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think if the prison system were wise or are wise, they should mix.
19:53.456 --> 20:16.700
[SPEAKER_01]: older and younger, because the older one have respect in the younger ones, like no one else can maintain with this really young, you know, they are like 15 or 16, now it has gone down in the edge groups and have no respect for anything.
20:18.490 --> 20:37.505
[SPEAKER_02]: But you see, here is, let me mention what seems to be a problem, even I see for especially in USA or in Canada also, even practicing yoga now has become as if it's a competition.
20:37.765 --> 20:40.007
[SPEAKER_02]: How long can you stand on one leg?
20:41.007 --> 20:45.091
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to teach that in prison at all, on your own.
20:45.151 --> 20:45.571
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
20:45.611 --> 20:50.695
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm saying is just the word yoga itself doesn't convey anything.
20:50.816 --> 20:55.680
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really the question of who is bringing it, who is teaching it, what is the attitude.
20:56.500 --> 21:01.224
[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise certainly as I see it, at least in North America.
21:02.114 --> 21:06.216
[SPEAKER_02]: Yoga has become just a way of increasing your sex appeal.
21:06.797 --> 21:07.157
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:07.277 --> 21:09.939
[SPEAKER_02]: It is not really connecting with anything real.
21:11.199 --> 21:12.880
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and that's not yoga.
21:13.561 --> 21:14.001
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:14.021 --> 21:31.271
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I would agree with you, but what I'm saying is how do we, because the whole overall cultural attitude is everything, how you do, you compete with others and somehow get the first prize, that kind of attitude.
21:32.110 --> 21:37.739
[SPEAKER_02]: whether it is yoga or music or theatre or anything that takes over.
21:39.800 --> 22:06.445
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, unfortunately, and that has nothing to do with the inner aspect of, and it's hard to maintain that, for instance, for the head office at the prison system, they think they know what they should give the prisoners, and they know how to make it financially less costly and blah, blah, and.
22:06.945 --> 22:28.083
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they missed the whole point and before I retired, I said that you have to maintain a certain level on how these prison guards, because we are teaching prison guards to teach yoga with inmates.
22:29.123 --> 22:45.632
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like in UK, for instance, or in the U.S. either where you have properly trained yoga teachers that come in, but that's not the situation within, and that requires that you have very, very qualified.
22:46.492 --> 23:07.753
[SPEAKER_01]: people that are training the prison guards, but so I'm not so impressed with how it's going, but fortunately the person who was my colleague, she's working on the umbrella of the prison yoga project in the US and they are
23:08.213 --> 23:32.941
[SPEAKER_01]: internationally connected, and they have the requirements for proper training for all yoga teachers and persons, and that's a very, very important aspect that you are serving this, you are offering this as a kind of pathway to move from within.
23:35.158 --> 23:52.919
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me, really, at the heart of yoga or really in a way what we are all wishing for, is how to bring both the requirements and the abilities of my mind, feelings and body together.
23:53.767 --> 24:01.052
[SPEAKER_02]: rather than that the mind is just wholly occupying me or just the body takes over then there are athletic competitions.
24:02.113 --> 24:06.876
[SPEAKER_02]: How do we bring also the heart to co-ordinate with the mind and the body?
24:07.216 --> 24:10.498
[SPEAKER_02]: Seems to me that is really the call.
24:10.678 --> 24:17.643
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on the person who is teaching that they have this
24:18.841 --> 24:26.449
[SPEAKER_01]: quality of depth and purity of heart and that they really want to offer this.
24:26.789 --> 24:34.136
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in the inmates' days sensed this immediately if you have this quality or not.
24:34.637 --> 24:37.800
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have never had any problems with discipline.
24:38.020 --> 24:38.561
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been...
24:38.941 --> 24:55.656
[SPEAKER_01]: teaching for 25 years and so I think that if you are honest and of course you have to have a certain natural authority in what you're doing because that brings safety.
24:56.451 --> 25:20.884
[SPEAKER_01]: into the group that you are in command of what you're doing but you are offering it as something authentically from yourself and that connects you know to feelings and I think I had one of my best days in prisons the other day when I had this music producer David Jesse with me to share
25:26.547 --> 25:31.169
[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely one of the most special moments in my life.
25:32.570 --> 25:48.118
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a real receipt that it can work in very holistic way and everybody was just totally present.
25:49.339 --> 25:50.059
[SPEAKER_01]: It's wonderful.
25:51.551 --> 26:01.695
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't say it's easy, but it can make it happen if you have the right constellation.
26:02.710 --> 26:07.992
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are some really wonderful people working in this area.
26:08.452 --> 26:14.033
[SPEAKER_01]: Besselwander Kolk, you know, Besselwander Kolk, the body keeps the score.
26:14.754 --> 26:16.274
[SPEAKER_01]: He has written a book, the body.
26:16.834 --> 26:22.136
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he has meant a lot to my colleague, who's now taking over.
26:22.456 --> 26:25.477
[SPEAKER_01]: And passionate about his work.
26:27.398 --> 26:33.002
[SPEAKER_01]: James Fox, who founded the prison system in the U.S. also, fantastic.
26:33.563 --> 26:36.105
[SPEAKER_01]: And be the Kiran BD.
26:36.845 --> 26:38.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know Kiran BD?
26:38.707 --> 26:46.393
[SPEAKER_01]: She who started the Vipassana meditations in the Delhi State prison many, many years ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know who she was?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you David?
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, I haven't heard of her.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh fantastic!
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[SPEAKER_01]: She became the CEO of what she said for the Delhi prison which is I mean 10,000 inmates and she managed to bring in, we pass on our meditations for hundreds of inmates at the same time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was, if you if you google on Kiran Bede
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[SPEAKER_01]: You will find a remarkable human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She turned me rashly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what she did was just impossible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she became also the head of the police force.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For, I mean, unheard of a woman, both the Delhi prison, stay prison, and the police force for Delhi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, nothing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was unstoppable, but I don't think she had an easy life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She really risked herself on, but she did a great job.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She turned things around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was a lawyer, so she was tough, you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't sidestep her at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She was a better firm in her rights and what she could do and everything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And she did it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think one of the directions of the conversation, I think is the wisdom in any field implies the integration of mind, heart and will and having a kind of spiritual connection and inspiration.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, do you think that is that true?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to follow you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely, I mean, you have to walk your talk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have to, I try to, it depends on what I try to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Make space for the right start of the day every day, you know, to nourish myself and take care of myself in a way that I set the intention or I have a good beginning to
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[SPEAKER_00]: to your day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's very important.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think probably all three of us have a routine that starts on day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know you do, Raby, with your... What do you do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do some yoga exercises and then I have meditation and then I go for a walk with a dog and so I think it's very good to have a routine that nourishes you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, that you take care of your spirit and your inner self, like you're brushing your teeth, or you have that procedure of being grounded before you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I actually recommend to everybody, but only because I myself practice it, not just recommend to others, that every day, in addition to doing whatever physical kind of yoga they need to do, just to keep healthy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: to take at least 20 minutes to 30 minutes of quietly sitting, or even if they go for a walk but not talking to anybody, just inner quiet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That is really the heart of meditation, whatever we mean by meditation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Allow something else to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Resonate in you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm fortunate to have a space on my own.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's my sacred space and so I can have that quietness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's absolutely necessary.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have to have it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would refuse to have breakfast until I actually sit down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think one would think from the drift of our conversation that the wise scientists were implying or even referring to, they must have an active in a life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One would have thought because I don't think you can be wise without that or am I wrong?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jonah Soak, he talked about the necessity for contemplation, I mean being quiet and he also said, I told you, he talked about the need to sit together and be quiet and feel together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He thought that was very important also to be able to just sit and
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[SPEAKER_01]: feel each other's presence.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe that's a good place to wind up the conversation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a very interesting thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to say to anything else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well indeed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was going to suggest.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My challenge now is to try to share.
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[SPEAKER_01]: my experience and being a witness for what Jonas had to offer humanity which I feel has not been recognized at all and this has also been a task that I felt for a long time but I haven't felt ready to do it because it's
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a sacred to me and I don't want to come out in a wrong way to combine this big theory that he provided me with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that in itself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a deeper aspect how he touched my deepest self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I became transformed by being contagious, but his whole vision, you know, it was invaded by this possibility of a new consciousness that will help us serve us to evolve into a new phase of civilization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To combine that from a personal perspective in a more existential way and balance that with his great theory I felt very relieved when I could write the essay for you and go more deeply into what his big vision was.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you didn't fairly well, actually, I was very touched.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I think it's so important to try to keep the simplicity in the complicity through being just a simple human being and sharing my path.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you very much, Eva.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Rabi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Eva.
