043 - Avoiding Overwhelm in Your Web Design Business with Chris Salvaggio

[00:00:00] Josh: Hey everybody. Welcome in to episode 43 and this one I've got a very special guest and a special episode for you because we are talking with a student of mine, Chris Salva. I mean, man, what a fun name to say. And he is somebody who has been through all of my web design courses to this point, and the dude is killing it with his web design business.
[00:00:22] Josh: And we're gonna talk about a subject that is crucial for those of you who are particularly just starting into your business, but then also for those of you who have been in your business for a while, maybe you're ready to level up or maybe you're just feeling burnt out or overwhelmed. Because in this episode, we're gonna talk all about how to practically avoid overwhelm in your business.
[00:00:43] Josh: Again, for those of you who are just starting your business or you're thinking about it, What a great time to listen to this episode. I sure wish I had something like this when I got started, but then again, for those of you who have been in your business for a while and you're ready to take that next step, or if you're feeling that that overwhelm and that sense of burnout, this episode is really gonna help you out because we dive into the practical things that Chris has done as he's early in his journey and his web design business.
[00:01:07] Josh: He's an agency owner based outta San Diego, California, and he had, long story short, as you'll hear, he had an SEO business for over a decade and then pivoted his business to offer web design and maintenance. And he was in a position where he could have just overwhelmed himself with everything that you need to learn or want to learn in web design.
[00:01:27] Josh: But he was able to, to come through my courses, and I've helped coach him and mentor him. And man, he's just, he's killing it. And he, more importantly, is that he's doing this while keeping a sustainable pace, and he's living the life he wants to live. So I'm really excited for you to hear this and to get some practical resources and methods and strategies to help you in your business.
[00:01:46] Josh: Now this episode is brought to you by my web design business course. We talk a lot about this in the episode because, um, Chris references a lot of things that I teach in my business course. But one thing, really important thing I wanted to hit on before we dive into this episode, and I'll talk about this.
[00:02:01] Josh: Is that a lot of times web designers focus on what they want to learn, but that may not be what you actually need to learn. And you'll hear about why that's important in this episode. But one reason I have all my courses, I teach you what you need to know in all of these different subjects. And with the business course, we dive into pricing, collecting content, getting clients, and all of the business side of things that you could spend hours, days, months, years, learning on your own.
[00:02:30] Josh: But I created my course to show you my experience and what works for me, and I walk you through. Everything in my business, all my templates, all my contracts, invoices, you know, proposals, and every aspect of the business side of web design to help you so you can expedite your journey as well. So if you're interested in that, make sure to go to the show notes for this page because as of right now, I have a, a live promo, uh, for a discount into my business course.
[00:02:54] Josh: I'll make sure that's on the show notes for this page. But without further ado, guys, enjoy my in depth and really awesome chat with, uh, my brother Chris Saio, who again, I'm ex just super pumped for you to hear from and he's getting to dish out some really good stuff on how you can avoid overwhelm in your business.
[00:03:12] Josh: Chris, welcome to the show, man. Awesome to have you on, brother. 
[00:03:15] Chris: Thanks for having me. Yoda. 
[00:03:17] Josh: You look for those who are watching this, you just look like you live by the beach, which you do, right? You're from San Diego, is that right? Or you're in Facing City? 
[00:03:25] Chris: I do, yeah, we're right by the beach. Um, Little bit off. I mean, people that live on the beach would say, you're not on the beach. Uh, but, you know, it takes us about 11, 14 minutes maybe with traffic to get there. 
[00:03:38] Josh: It's, oh, that's on the beach. Yeah. As, as a, uh, Midwestern guy from Ohio. You're on the beach, so. 
[00:03:44] Chris: Yeah, I can see it. I can see the water. 
[00:03:46] Josh: Yeah, you can, yeah, you can see my pale, uh, my pale complexion too, I'm sure. So, yeah, man. Looking great. Hey, why don't we start off, uh, w with starting out with who you are and then what you do with your business before we dive into this topic, which I can't wait to chat with you about, because we're gonna talk about avoiding overwhelm when you start your business, which I think is the, probably the biggest hurdle of anything is just how to just not feel overwhelmed.
[00:04:11] Josh: And a lot of people, I don't mean to derail us right from the get-go, but I found that a lot of people just either, either they quit or they just can't handle. Um, just the amount of stuff that you have to think about and plan through when getting started. So, before we dive into that, yeah. Why don't we start off with, uh, who you are and what you do with your business, man.
[00:04:29] Josh: Well, uh, my name is 
[00:04:30] Chris: chris and um, I have a web design agency and we specialize in building websites, um, website maintenance and website performance, which is typically SEO o but not limited to.
[00:04:48] Josh: Beautiful, beautiful. And, and let's start off with your background a little bit cuz I know when we chatted, you know, you're a student in my web design business course. That's how we got connected and I've seen you really have an incredible start, man for the first few months here. Um, why don't you just talk about your background, like what did you do that led to you wanting to start your own web design? 
[00:05:12] Chris: Well, that's a great question and, uh, I'm glad you asked me that. Here, here's, here's the, the reality is, is that for me, becoming a web design agency was inevitable. Um, I started way back in the day in banking and, um, I really learned about, um, subscription or residual income in the banking world. Um, and, uh, the problem with the banking world was the ethics, and it just never, uh, jived well with me.
[00:05:41] Chris: So, when I went to search for another business, one of the things that was a commonality across every business was needing to, to have your business optimized online. so I thought, well, why don't I just go into that? I went into search engine optimization, um, and had plenty of success there.
[00:05:58] Chris: However, there was always one thing that was missing in my particular business model, which was the weakest link to every campaign that I did, was somebody's website. Um, so after kind of getting over, maybe after 10, 10, 12 years of getting over the fact that, uh, uh, you know, I, I didn't want to touch that. I, you know, talk to your web guy, do, there's just so many things that I'm doing already.
[00:06:23] Chris: Um, and then after a while, um, I decided, you know what, this is the weakest link to our, our, uh, our products and our services. And it's actually the strongest link in the whole scheme of things. It's really the linchpin that, uh, that drives the lever here. Uh, so we kind of flipped it upside down and decided let's go for the websites.
[00:06:45] Chris: And, and, um, through that I found your classes, uh, which basically gave me a way to follow, um, so that I could not have to learn everything from scratch. And it was just, Hey, here's a system that works and it does work perfectly. Um, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Uh, you don't have to go, uh, this is me talking to myself, Chris you don't have to go through another 10 years of perfecting something. You can just do what Josh does and next week you're a web designer, . 
[00:07:15] Josh: Oh, that's awesome. That's great, man. 
[00:07:17] Chris: Yeah, that's pretty much how it worked. 
[00:07:19] Josh: That's awesome, man. And I know, so, so you did SEO for over a decade, is that right? Just SEO services. Wow, I didn't realize it was that long. And then, but to your point, yeah, that was the struggle is you were doing SEO on top of other web designers, builds some that were, I imagined pretty good. And then some I imagine were not so good. And as you found out, and as I teach at my SEO course, You can have the best SEO strategies and everything in place that you want, but if your website sucks and it loads slow and it's not converting, it doesn't matter.
[00:07:52] Josh: Like, that's why so many companies burn so much money on SEO and digital marketing and, and social media marketing or the website sucks cuz they're driving all this traffic and it doesn't do anything. Is that kind of what you fa was that kinda the biggest pain point and challenge that you had with your SEO business?
[00:08:07] Chris: It is, it is. And I went further to invest the time to educate clients and, and try to help them with that. But then the weakest link was third parties and they, you know, um, well listen, I'll help you out with this Mr. Client. Uh, but just I need access to your site. Well, I don't know how to do that. Okay. Um, who, who does?
[00:08:26] Chris: Well, I don't know. We got this site through this or there, or, uh, some site, some sites were free that were tied to another, uh, marketing, you know, there's so, so many things, uh, that, that. It was very difficult to help where I wanted to help and it impeded my performance and nobody, you know, it's very hard for someone to believe that, right?
[00:08:50] Chris: Like, look, we're doing all the right stuff. I can show you all these reports and all of these things, and, uh, you know, at the end of the day, you're not getting calls and it's your fault, right? Yeah. That's not a great conversation to have with anybody. 
[00:09:02] Josh: So that's a good point. I've, I have always felt that for agencies who do advertising, particularly on the web, if it's social media or, uh, SEO based, it is driving the traffic to the website. So yeah, if it doesn't convert, it's almost like your hands are tied. Like you can only do so much. So that's the, you're hitting on like the most important thing, man. The, the importance of the website itself, which is kind of as you know, why I'm so passionate about sharing what I've learned with, with my agency.
[00:09:29] Josh: And the really cool thing about where you're at though, Chris, is that. You have that foundational understanding and probably, well, more than foundational, we have an in-depth understanding of social, or excuse me, seo, I keep on saying social media. So you're already a leg up on a lot of people starting their business.
[00:09:45] Josh: Cuz I know for me personally, SEO was like the last thing I learned. I got good at design, I learned divvy, I learned the technical stuff, learned more about conversions, and then SEO was more like the last piece of the puzzle for me. Whereas looking back in hindsight, I probably would've took a more proactive approach to learning seo. So I mean, you're on a really great, you know, you, you've got a, a good foundation to build off of your, for your business moving forward. It's 
[00:10:11] Chris: definitely one of those, uh, you know, paid tuition through failure type things. Um, where you just end up, where you end up. And, um, I'll tell you as far as expediting the journey for me of getting the web design business or, or the agency, um, under the umbrella of web design. It was more of a simp simplification process than it was, what am I gonna do? And all of this. It was kind of like months of ahas, like, wow and, and you go from promising and over-delivering with things that you can't prove other than reports that most people can't understand and don't really care about you.
[00:10:58] Chris: You show everybody, yeah. All the work you did, all your hours, all of that stuff. And, you know, if they don't feel this is a feeling, it's not even fact if they don't feel like they're getting a return on their investment, um, because whatever they had in their mind, their phone's blowing up off the hinges or they're not driving a Lambo yet.
[00:11:17] Chris: Um, they feel like maybe they need to switch it up, you know? Yeah. And, and, and you're not doing what you said you were gonna do, whereas, We go into the web design agency and I say, I'm gonna build you this beautiful website, and when I'm done, guess what? You can verify there's a beautiful website there.
[00:11:35] Josh: Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's a great point. Web design is more of an instant result. Like it goes from, you don't have a website to, here is your nice new website, or you have a terrible website, here is your nicely redesigned website. Like there is much more of an immediate, I was, I shouldn't say instant because it takes time to build a website, but it's, you know, maybe a few week or month to two month process.
[00:11:57] Josh: Whereas seo as we all, everyone who does SEO or at least does any sort of web design with organic, uh, you know, search optimization, you're gonna realize it's a month. It's, it's at least three months before you're gonna see any sort of result that I found, at least. Yeah, absolutely. Depending on Absolutely.
[00:12:14] Josh: The competition and stuff. So, so that's great, man. Now one question I had. Which I, I'm not sure of. Did you change your business name when you started the agency or did you keep the same name from your SEO business to, to, so you essentially expanded the services and just kind of revamped your offerings and what you're doing?
[00:12:32] Chris: Yeah, I actually, um, what I did was, now this is something I don't recommend, by the way, but what I did was I, I pretty much cut, I did the calculations cuz I knew we, we might talk about this, but I cut 80, 87 0.8% of my business and just dropped it. Wow. Um, and it brought me all the way down to the stress point of what did you do?
[00:13:02] Chris: But the thing was, is that I wasn't able to reinvent. Um, I, I wasn't able to think creatively. I didn't have the time while managing all of these things to make something new. So, um, I had to contact, you know, we always have that 80 20 rule where 80% of your time is taken up by 20% of your people and things like that. There's a lot of 80 20 rules out there. But, um, that one was really prevalent to me. 
[00:13:30] Chris: So, um, I wanted to, to wipe all of that out and the money wasn't as important because, um, I knew I wasn't able to focus on really doing what I wanted to do. And the bottom line was I didn't enjoy doing SEO after a while.
[00:13:46] Josh: Oh, okay. 
[00:13:47] Chris: I, I initially wanted to help people, like, Hey, if you're doing business, you wanna be online and trust me, this is really good for you. Um, but not if you don't trust me and not, if I can't prove to you that there's a reason that you should after a while. 
[00:14:02] Josh: Yeah. You know, I, that, that reminds me of the, because we chatted, I think probably what, maybe a couple months ago at this point. Uh, and you said that, you said that the SEO business, it took a while for you to see any sort of results, and the reaction was never like a, a great reaction from clients. Whereas you do a website and then some clients, it just, it makes their day. They're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. It, it invigorates them.
[00:14:27] Josh: They get excited about their business. They're, they get excited to market and drive traffic to it, which is what a win. Like what a great result. That's one of the, the beauties about web design. It's what, it's different than a lot of other industries where you provide a service and the client's like, okay, well thank you. Well, this is like, you can change somebody's life with an awesome website design. Yeah. I, 
[00:14:47] Chris: I mean, I used to, I used to think, I mean, at least say thank you. At least say cool or, uh, you know, right on or something, you know? Yeah. You wouldn't even get anything. It was just negative feedback all the time and that kind of, uh, these kind of things.
[00:15:05] Josh: I can't believe you lasted a decade doing that, man. 
[00:15:08] Chris: Well, the, the positive side of it is, you know, I, um, made a lot of money, so it's Gotcha. It's one of those, it's one of those struggles where you go, well, if this is what it takes to, to make a ton of money, then I see, I guess people are, are just never gonna be satisfied. You know, you talk to yourself Yeah. Um, 
[00:15:30] Josh: into those things. But now, but now we're in the beautiful spot where you're making some good money and I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, price points and everything like that here. Cuz you've been through my course and we've worked through this together, but you're doing stuff you love now.
[00:15:43] Josh: Like, I know you're, you're already building your team, I'm sure we'll talk about that. And you're doing some really cool things, so it's gotta, it's gotta feel good, right, man. Like, that's gotta help you through this overwhelm, you know, of starting, starting this new venture. 
[00:15:54] Chris: Yeah. The, the, it's not even the same at all. It's, it's almost like a rebirth. Mm. It's, uh, I look, I mean, I'm so excited for other people to actually get into this business and to get the same education that I got, um, and to go through the things that I went through because, um, aside for the SEO experience, if I would've started here 10 years ago, who knows where I'd be now?
[00:16:21] Chris: Oh, good point. Yeah. But it's never too late. And when you can take a class online in your underwear if you want to , right? And you can literally be, um, as, as, as quickly as you can learn, retain, and apply, um, you don't have to rethink, reinvent the wheel or do anything when you can do that and have a, a business that you can pretty much instantly be on a path to be over a hundred k a year on. That's something really special. 
[00:16:52] Josh: Very special. Yeah, man. And you're, yeah. That, that's the mindset right there. And that's of course, as you know, why I'm doing what I'm doing is to, to show, and you, we talked about this previously, but what I teach is not the way, it is a way. And I loved when you said that, cuz that really resonated with me.
[00:17:09] Josh: It's like with web design, there is, there a lot of things. There's not a right or wrong. It's, here's one way you could do it. Like, my web design process is my process. It is not the only process. Like, it's what works for me. It's what works for my agency. This is what we do. So I, I think that's a great mindset to have.
[00:17:26] Josh: And as, as we start to get more practical here, I do wanna encourage everybody listening. You, you really should have that mindset, particularly if you're starting out, I know it's, there's investments with courses and trainings and things like that, but you have to value your time. And it sounds like you, Chris, when starting out, it sounds like you, you developed that mentality. And is it safe to say that you valued your time over everything when you started your business? Absolutely. 
[00:17:50] Chris: I mean, when we, when we talk about the topic of avoiding overwhelm, um, I first just wanna say that complete avoidance is, I'm not sure that that's possible for a personality like mine because it's only relief from overwhelm is only available at the level beneath the next one.
[00:18:15] Chris: As you level up, you're gonna level right up into more overwhelm and that for me drives, uh, what tools and what resources I'm gonna use to, uh, balance that out. And then once that's balanced out, it's time to level up again. Um, and that's kind of how I do scaling is. Not based on an income goal or what I want to achieve or this or that.
[00:18:41] Chris: It's basically on time lifestyle and the balance of, of like the five core things that I want that create quality of life for me. Um, when those things become out of whack, um, then it's time to look towards scaling or putting some other things in place to balance that out again. 
[00:19:00] Josh: Hmm. What are those five, if you wouldn't mind sharing that?
[00:19:03] Chris: Well, for me, um, I put God first. Uh, I'm a Christian so I need to have my time to do my bible studies and, and all of that stuff. I put my family second, so family comes right into there. Um, I have two kids. Uh, we had 'em both at the same time. Uh, they're about to be six, and it's really important to, as a father, to be there to lead and guide.
[00:19:24] Chris: Um, and I think that, that, that actually, uh, those actions, um, drip down into work because, um, that's providing, you know, you, you need to be able to secure provisions for your family. And, um, after. Number four would be fun or other things, uh, that you like to do. Right. Um, for me, I like making music. Um, and I also really like designing stuff and being creative, uh, in, in lots of different ways, whether it's building a bridge, you know, for the boy outside or, uh, putting a bike together or something like that.
[00:20:02] Chris: Um, and then after that is, is number five is leveling up. And that's okay. When all of this stuff is balanced, uh, then you can push the limits again. 
[00:20:11] Josh: That's great. I love that. God, family work, fun learning level up, whatever. That's great. Yeah, and I, I think that's really important to have something like that in your mind when you're starting your business because as you talk it can very easily become overwhelming. And the, I think the thing to think about is it's okay. Like there is a lot to learn, but that's all right. And that's one reason I, I was glad to help you when you really transitioned to doing web design as a service because as you found out, like the business aspect of things, you can really make as simple or as complex as you wanna make it.
[00:20:48] Josh: I mean, you can, you can just devastate yourself right out of the gate or you can take it one step at a time. and for me personally, I've learned the value of my time. And so I'm very quick now to go through a course or go through a training or follow a proven path. I think that's the big thing that I've found to be the most beneficial over the past few years for me, whether it's coaching, cuz I've been involved in business coaching for the past three years and it's absolutely changed my life and rocked my world because now instead of trying to figure everything out on my own, I reach out to people who have already either been there or know more than I do.
[00:21:22] Josh: And I have, I learned from them, I have them, you know, teach me. So let's talk about that real quick, real quick, Chris, because you talked about that a little bit. You, you, you used the word simplify. So how did you simplify the business aspect of stuff when you started? 
[00:21:39] Chris: Okay, well I didn't, first of all, um, my, my version of what I was trying to do was not simple at all. And I mean, I go from. I was not able to move until I felt like I had all the boxes checked until I had everything, um, going. But, um, through trying to do everything myself, I came across a lot of YouTube videos. Google and YouTube was probably my biggest tools, right? 
[00:22:11] Chris: And the problem I had with most YouTube videos is there was either a hidden sale there, um, meaning it was an affiliate promotion of some sort, which means, Hey, I'm gonna show you how to do this. All you need is this tool and click this link to go get it. And, you know, things like that, which, you know, it's not a bad thing. It wasn't what I experienced when I came across your videos. And I felt the first couple ti all the time. Whenever I was searching for something, somehow it would take a while and then I'd finally land on a Josh Hall video, and then I was done with that topic.
[00:22:47] Chris: Okay, got this one. All right. I can center things now in divvy right? Um, I can center a picture, I can center text. It's fine. It's took me a week to find this video, but okay. And then one time you mentioned, Hey, and by the way, if you're interested, I have a class and I thought, this is where I learned everything anyway, let me go check this out.
[00:23:07] Chris: And once I checked that out, I noticed there was a lot of classes and, um, I sent you an email and I said, Hey, I wanna buy some classes. Um, I'm interested in, in this and this, but what do you suggest? What order would I take? And the order that you sent me was not what I would've done. And so at that point I kind of had to just go, Hey, well this is somebody that clearly is teaching and I'm clearly learning right now, so I'm just gonna gonna take my position.
[00:23:34] Chris: And, um, and learn. And so I just, I followed exactly what you said to do and it literally turned everything around from the second that I started doing that. Um, there's, there's tons of things, uh, that, that came into play by taking them through the order. And I don't think anybody in my position looks at themselves as a novice or um, or a beginner, you know, and says, uh, well I don't need a beginner cla just that word.
[00:24:03] Chris: Yeah. Sometimes doesn't jive with certain personalities, but you gotta understand that if you're in the beginning, you are a beginner. It doesn't matter what your level of success is, they're separate. 
[00:24:15] Josh: That's a good point. Like you, you, you knew a lot about SEO and a lot of other areas of web, but in regards to divvy itself Yeah. You, you were still a beginner, so that's a great, that's a great point cuz yeah, I think a lot of people try to jump to the end or they go right into. Doesn't even have to be any of my courses or other trainings, but areas of their business. But they're not ready yet. Like they've skipped the foundation. And if you build your house on sand, it's just gonna fall right through, you know, you gotta build your house on solid foundation using an analogy. So, yeah. That's great, man. 
[00:24:48] Chris: The other thing it makes me think of is, uh, how you're talking about business coaching and, and relying on the people around you and stuff like that one of the things that makes me think of is, um, you know, the, you know, the, the, the saying happens a lot in training, um, how birds fly, right? Um, and I'll just say it, I'm sure some of you, some of the people out there have heard this, but I'm just gonna say what impacts me when I think about these things is that, um, birds fly in a V form.
[00:25:19] Chris: All right. And the reason they do that is because the person up front is taking, uh, the majority of the impact on the wind flow and then off the wings. The other ones get a little bit lighter. They, they have, they don't have as much work to do. So the leader, which is the same in teams and people like that, they're doing the majority of the work.
[00:25:39] Chris: They are navigating, they're doing all of the things that they need, but by flying in that v formation and relying on each other, they're able to fly 70% further than one can do in a single flight on their own. And even the leader, sometimes when he gets tired, um, falls back into the formation and then somebody else takes the lead.
[00:26:00] Chris: Um, and, and it just makes me think of enable, to get to your destination in the fastest, most efficient way, you have to be able to lead in some places that you're called to, and you also have to be able to follow in other places where there's a greater leader. 
[00:26:16] Josh: What a great analogy. And I mean, for everyone listening, how cool would you get web design tips and tricks here? But you also get a little National Geographic uh, learn in there too. Cuz I, I guess I, oh, I didn't really formally knew that about the, you know, the flying V and stuff, but that makes total sense. That's awesome. And I, yeah, it, it really does. I think it contributes to this topic of avoiding overwhelm because that analogy just hit the nail on the head.
[00:26:41] Josh: If you try to do everything yourself and learn everything on your own for free by watching videos, you're either one gonna burn yourself out, or two, your journey is gonna take potentially 10, a hundred times longer than it needs to be by doing that. So I, that's a great analogy, man. I, I think it's really important to note again, you, you had that mentality getting started with this because yeah, you could've figured stuff out, but I was, you know, I love being able to, to coach you through all that.
[00:27:09] Josh: And you went through, I think, all my courses, right? Or most of them. at this point. Mm-hmm. . And so that path worked out. You, you realize that, you know what? I am an expert, or at least I'm, I'm very advanced in some areas, but other areas I'm not. So you take the beginner role on that. And look, I do the same thing.
[00:27:23] Josh: A lot of people ask me about stuff and I'm like, I have no idea about that. Some people just think I know, like I'm a master of jQuery and I'm like, I don't know a single line of jQuery. I have colleagues who now, you know, that's their thing. I'm a C s S guy, but I'm not a jQuery guy, so I re I recognize the same for me, I'm a beginner and I'm a baby in a lot of other areas and I'm trying to continue learning as well.
[00:27:46] Josh: Um, but this idea of overwhelm, particularly from the business, Chris, since I'd love to focus on what you did to try to, to simplify and take that one step at a time, was were there certain, uh, like tools and resources that you found to be really beneficial for you from the business aspect of things? 
[00:28:04] Chris: Yeah, and, and I'll say it again. I don't want it to be like shamelessly plugging all the time, but it really is the truth. . And um, before I go into that, one of the things that I noticed that's out there that I think everybody suffers from is we are in a time where there is a plethora of information that's out there. Oh, yeah. Tons of information.
[00:28:25] Chris: So when we talk about overwhelming, there's an overwhelming amount of information, but you'll find that there's not so much truth and they're different information and truth aren't the same. And when I, uh, was guided by you and, and when you say the things that you say and you show, uh, everything, right?
[00:28:48] Chris: It's, you're not just giving people valuable information. Almost 80% of the story, it's open book and it's a hundred percent truth. So through there I was able to go get a Basecamp account. And now I have project management. That's just everything I was looking for. How many thousands of do, literally spent $6,000 a couple months before that trying to integrate ODU and another c r m.
[00:29:18] Chris: Um, getting custom modules made, hiring, uh, you know, web or hiring programmers to do, uh, you know, um, like custom, custom backend stuff. Okay, wow. Yeah. Yeah, just stuff that I wanted. I wanted a task manager that I could talk to people in, you know? Um, and I didn't want to have to spend a hundred dollars for every client that I put in there so I could communicate with them.
[00:29:40] Chris: Um, it was mind blowing to find base camp, you know, through, through you just saying, well, I use base camp. Oh, let me check this out. 17 hats. Are you kidding me? I literally spent 2000 of the dollars that I spent was trying to get away to present a contract, have it signed, and then. Go through a payment processor, you know, um, yeah, you don't have to do that. You can just click the button now Yeah. And say, this 
[00:30:10] Josh: is what I want to happen. Yeah. And for ev everyone who's, who's curious, like that's what I show in my course through 17 hats, is you can create workflows. And I haven't set up, as you saw Chris, to where I do the proposal, I send it out, and then it automatically connects to my contract and the payment system that I, you know, whatever payment agreement I set up in there.
[00:30:28] Josh: So they just, they click accept the contract, they pay online, and then we're off and running. And then I link them in with Basecamp, which I still love Basecamp. There's other great ones out there too. There's Asana, people use Trello. There's some other more robust ones. There's dessata, which is getting more popular.
[00:30:44] Josh: I still love Basecamp. And I'm actually, uh, I think you're on Basecamp three, right? Yeah. So I, I'm, uh, my, my agency is now using three. We still have two, but we're using three as well. So we're, we're experimenting with both, and I think we're gonna transition everything to three here pretty soon. 
[00:30:58] Chris: Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a really nice layout. And, um, you know, the other thing is, uh, just, you know, going back to the, the, the truth portion, um, you said in your, in your course, you s you show how you do things, right? Well, that's just one side of the story, but you also provide, um, uh, practically, here's the text also, by the way.
[00:31:25] Chris: So you can take this and post this here, and you go through, now let's build out your template. Let me show you exactly what to do so that by the end of this course you have a working model. If you wanna update it from there, that's fine, but that's why it's a way, that's why it works, because it's complete and it's easy. It's not overwhelming at all in. With one course, being able to take out all of those things that I didn't have the exact answer for, I didn't have, and I'm, nobody is gonna have h How 
[00:31:58] Josh: long have you been doing this? Uh, over a decade now. Okay. So 
[00:32:03] Chris: you can't do that unless you do that. You can't just decide, well, this morning, uh, here's what I'm gonna do now I'm gonna do this for 10 years. Today you can't do that. You have to do it. It takes 10 years. Yeah. So you have to be able to take a step back and go, okay, there's stuff in there and over 10 years if this is working, and, and, um, 
[00:32:27] Chris: These are, are the, the methods you gotta be smart enough, or at least for me, I was smart enough to, to look at that and go, there's a lot of stuff that we're not gonna talk about, and there's a lot of things that I'm not gonna need to discover through failure. And again, that just expedited me being able to go after things right away. The contracts are there right away, how to price things right away. Um, all of that stuff was done, uh, upon completion 
[00:32:53] Josh: of the course, so. Oh, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. And it is, it's like, it's a culmination of, you know, my experience over 10 years and all my content is my, the podcast, my cor, my courses are just more targeted towards a certain subject. And I think I, I know for me personally, just, I don't mean to derail us, but when I thought about doing courses and teaching, one of my apprehensions was I'm doing free YouTube tutorials. I basically give all my content away, you know, in some form or another with my blog posts and my elegant themes, articles and stuff, I'm like, 
[00:33:26] Josh: For one, would somebody, you know, pay for a course or you know, is it, you know, I'm giving a lot of stuff for free, but what I realized is it's like breadcrumbs. And when you find a tutorial, you find an article on pricing or something, well that's great, but it's a breadcrumb. It's not the full meal. And I think what you found out is that A to B starting point. Ending point, here's your path, here's the tools, you know, the tools I use, and, and that's what worked for you, which is, I just love it, man.
[00:33:51] Josh: It's awesome to see how quickly you've expedited your journey in the web design realm. And again, being that you have the background in SEO and you already have a mind for business, and your mentality is already shaped and you're ready, you value your time, you have your priorities with your family and, and what is important to you.
[00:34:07] Josh: That's just, that's key man, that I'm really excited to, to see where things end up, you know, a year from now. Because as you said, had you started doing web design 10 years ago, instead of just SEO you, I never want to think of any like feelings of regret or like what ifs. But man, you know, Either way. It's gonna be awesome to see what happens over the next few years here, now that you've got, you know, you, you've avoided a lot of the pain and the lessons learned the hard way in the beginning.
[00:34:34] Chris: I, you know, I do wanna say too that, um, I also got a, a renewed piece of mentality and mind state through your courses as well. Uh, because you do a preparation module before every single one of the courses, which, um, when you're overwhelmed and you just need to get the answers, you might hit that section and feel like, I don't need, I'm ready for goodness sakes. Give me, show 
[00:35:06] Josh: me the money. Oh, right however, 
[00:35:11] Chris: Those preparations are, are very important. Um, how you, how you separate your time and, and, and even showing people, Hey, here's how I work on projects. Here's when I work on them. Here's, uh, what I don't do. Um, at this time. This is what deep work looks like. Uh, because that was not something that I, um, I didn't come to that conclusion on my own.
[00:35:34] Chris: I turned off all my notifications and, and all of the, the tactics that you go through. Um, that was through that course. Now, that definitely gave me, um, what I be, what I call web superpowers. You, you know, because that's great. I'm not getting pulled in 50 different directions and I'm actually scheduling those times, but that wasn't something that I had innately either. So, 
[00:35:57] Josh: um, yeah, that's a. It's a great point, man. It's a very valid point because yeah, I think particularly you're referencing my business course, and of course people join that. They're like, all right, I wanna hear about pricing. I want to hear about getting clients in detail, which I, you know, obviously those are my main modules in there.
[00:36:13] Josh: However, that's not where I start. We actually is, I think we talked about last time, I don't know if it caught you off guard with the, the first couple modules, but we start with mentality because you can, you can try to raise your rates and you can try to get clients, but guess what? Pricing and what clients are, those are actual people and actual businesses that are gonna be spending money on something.
[00:36:37] Josh: So there's actually a lot that needs to be talked about beforehand to again, lay that foundation. And let's be honest, a lot of people start to do well and they might get a really big project and they might start getting some clients, but if they don't start the mentality, which is key in this topic of avoiding overwhelm, you're likely gonna blow it.
[00:36:57] Josh: Like you're, if, if you charge a lot for a website and you land it, but you can't really deliver on your promises or you, you're, you're instantly overwhelmed. You're ins, yeah, you're instantly overwhelmed and then you'll probably lose that client and then it's not gonna go well. Or from the case of like getting a lot of leads, a lot of people focus on leads first.
[00:37:16] Josh: Which is not the right strategy to go in, in my opinion. It it's focusing on yourself and your value and getting your mentality ready to actually handle those leads. Cuz a lot of people want a ton of leads coming in and it's like, well, if you get a ton of leads, but you can't deliver you, you, you have a scattered mind, you have a scattered desk, you have a scattered work ethic and you know, like it's not gonna go well.
[00:37:39] Josh: So, uh, yeah, I I was curious, like to your point, you just said, you know, you like that we, we kind of started there. Do you feel like that helped you though? Like just with every aspect of the business? Just thinking, like, thinking through the mentality and again, that mental overwhelm, I feel, I feel like it 
[00:37:56] Chris: helped me with every aspect of my five major points, which lead to quality of life, which is way more important than just being able to navigate your business. Navigating your business is a very, um, important yet. It shouldn't be cumbersome and it shouldn't be. Um, you know, the majority of your time now balance for everyone is different. 
[00:38:19] Chris: Uh, you know, I do wanna say that too, because when I was 20, uh, and I started, you know, my s e o business and single, um, it was a different balance to work 20 hour days and drive fancy cars and, and go, uh, hang out with friends at night and, um, hang out on the weekends. And, you know, my balance was different. And so all walks of life and as you go through, um, being able to prep your brain and keep your, you know, it's one of the things you talked about is, uh, you know, When we talk about the tools that we use and, and what helps us with overwhelm, well, this is the one that has the biggest impact. 
[00:38:57] Josh: And it's your mind. It is your mind. Yep. If you're, 
[00:39:00] Chris: if you're, you know, stuffing caffeine or you know, other things into your body because you, you feel like you're tired cuz you're overwhelmed, you know, those things, uh, it's, it's tough to balance those things. And not a lot of people will take the time to say, Hey, you probably don't want to hear this. And this is probably a section that you, you're gonna skip because you feel like you don't need it. But it is the key to your foundation is you. And if you don't know now, you know. 
[00:39:30] Josh: Yeah. Great man, great point. I love this just because, you know, I've seen it play out with you and I've seen it play out with a bunch of other students who are crushing it now and are like, the, the biggest thing is they're like enjoying the journey because it is a journey.
[00:39:44] Josh: It doesn't mean that you're at the finish line right away, but now, like you have the foundation set and you've expedited things and you don't have to learn every lesson the hard way, like I did, which is really all my courses and all my podcasts and my blogs are basically all things I learned the hard way before I got serious about, you know, my time.
[00:40:03] Josh: Because to your point, yeah, my balance looked completely different when I was single and I, I started my business when I was 23, so at that time I was single, just started doing graphic design and web design and yeah, I would work insane hours, but then I didn't have other responsibilities with kids or my wife.
[00:40:22] Josh: So I was, yeah, hanging out with friends and doing whatever, like, it, it, it looked completely different, but, I will say the really cool thing is too, I think this is an important point to note. Just because you have limited time does not mean you can't be successful or you can't grow a six figure business in record time.
[00:40:40] Josh: You absolutely still can because what I've learned is to your point, focusing on the high level stuff, starting with your mentality. Following a proven path. All of that will actually help you work less than definitely 35 ish hours a week. You absolutely can build a successful web design six figure business with working less than 30 to 40 hours a week.
[00:41:04] Josh: It absolutely can be done. Uh, and that was one of the hardest things for me to realize. But once I started having kids in particular, it's amazing, man. I'm, I don't know if you've seen this as well, but as soon as I started having kids, my income went like this. And my mindset was, well man, I don't know how I'm going to, you know, make, and this was a few years ago, cuz my daughters too now.
[00:41:24] Josh: I was like, I don't know how we're gonna have kids and I'm gonna be able to maintain this income. Like, I was on a really good track. I had just, I had started making six figures a year before my daughter came and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna maintain this. But the complete opposite happened. I worked less, but I ended up making a lot more because I knew where to invest my time, the 80 20 rule.
[00:41:44] Josh: So, yeah. Yeah, 
[00:41:45] Chris: yeah. And, and you know, I think that when you're starting out, we talked about overwhelm and um, I think there's a deceiving piece of overwhelm, which is information I think that can be very deceiving because it's also a distraction. And, um, I know many people, uh, that have gone on a similar path and they just really almost become addicted to information and learning.
[00:42:14] Chris: Um, and it's the next video, I'm gonna learn this, I'm gonna learn that there's no time to apply it and you don't have anything to apply it to. You're just learning. Just learning. Yeah. I mean, look at the divvy community. How many videos come out a day, uh, that it's gonna teach you a new feature or a new way to do something, or this and that, uh, you know what I mean?
[00:42:33] Chris: Or, or a guy that says, Hey, come take my class. I'll teach you almost what you need to know. Yeah. Almost. Yeah, that's right. . You know what I mean? Here's the almost class, right? You can, you can just know about almost everything. Um, and it's just, that's a distraction. Um, things that you might be interested in, uh, sports, right?
[00:42:53] Chris: It's a huge distraction. Um, if you're, if you're on YouTube and you wanna know what your, your team did or something like that, well, these things, once you start weeding out distractions and you go, Hey, I have an hour and these are the things I need to get done. Once you do those things, you realize I don't really need that much time. Once all my distractions are. 
[00:43:12] Josh: Yes. Yeah. And you know, even like with that, the hobby kind of stuff, like I'm a big Blue Jackets hockey fan. Like I still, I am very involved with the podcast and check it up on stuff, but I just do it in segments. Like it, it just goes back to what we talked about with organizing your time and your schedule, which are the most mundane, practical things.
[00:43:31] Josh: But if you give yourself a window, like, okay, I've got, you know, I'm gonna do a deep work segment for like an hour or an hour and a half, and then I'm gonna take a break and going back to your list of like, priorities, like, as long as you know, I'm right spiritually or whatever your belief system is, and then your family, you know, they're taken care of.
[00:43:48] Josh: You got your work done, have some fun, and then learn. Like, that's the cool thing about now I, I think is, I'm actually, I love learning now and I'm actually enjoying reading, which I never did previous to the past few years. Um, and so that's kind of in there, like fun for me now is like having a coffee and reading a book.
[00:44:05] Josh: I'm like 80 years old now. Uh, but like, it's really cool. I say that to say like, you can do those things, you just. You don't let that consume a two hour block of your day. And that's where things get really in trouble. And to be honest, it's easy to do when you're, when you have free time and you don't have a family, you don't have kids yet.
[00:44:21] Josh: Cuz it's like, well, you know, I can work on this project at 11 tonight, uh, and I'm gonna screw around on YouTube for a little while. Well, when you have kids, it's like, I've got to get this project done now. And in a weird way, this was a really important thought. I, I didn't really mean to take us here. But when you're limited and when you give yourself kind of a, um, uh, a, a simplified toolbox or like a, not not an expanded, uh, plethora of tools or something like that, you're forced to get stuff done with what you have.
[00:44:54] Josh: And as a musician, I'm sure you've seen this too. Uh, I was drummer. That's the first thing I was thinking of. Yeah. So I was a, I was a drummer, so I, I did, I, what was kind of cool about being a drummer? Which is another reason I love that music translates to business is I had my stuff, I had my high hats, I had my snare drum, I had a handful of times, I had the certain number of symbols.
[00:45:15] Josh: I could not do anything else with different instruments cuz that's what I had. So I had to get really creative with what I had. So I can make a high hat sound in super, super cool because I know how to hit the sticks differently with it and do different things. Now as a guitarist, what, what do you play? Do you, did you play bass? I forget Chris. No, I'm electric. 
[00:45:34] Chris: All All electric. Okay. So, uh, samplers, drum machines, 
[00:45:38] Josh: keyboards. So that, that is like talk about information overwhelm or a, or not analysis paralysis, but there's just endless options, which I'm sure you could just spend 10 hours playing with different sounds and then it's like, well, crap, I didn't record anything because I just played around with different sounds.
[00:45:56] Josh: And it's the same thing in business in regards to like a contract, for example. There's no right or wrong web design contract. You could spend weeks, months on developing your contract or you can see what works for me or find some, you know, find a template out there and then run with it. Like, you kind of have to limit yourself and then go for it. Uh, learn, apply, and then apply to your point. Yeah. 
[00:46:21] Chris: And then I think the remedy for overwhelming is completion. 
[00:46:26] Josh: Ooh, that's good. Um, and so, 
[00:46:28] Chris: um, you're typically overwhelmed when you're uncertain and you don't know where the end is and how you're gonna get there. Uh, you feel like there's more coming and I don't have the answers for this stuff, and it starts piling up. But once you knock something off that to-do list, you put the check mark in there, um, and, and you have a completion, you have a process, you move on to something else. 
[00:46:51] Chris: as I think you need to, to realize that as a person, you're gonna grow and change. and you don't wanna spend so much time creating the perfect system for where you are in your life right now. You need to make something that works. And especially in the time that we're in right now, I think it's very important to develop systems that move at the speed of life. Yeah. So that you can, you can, you can move on. Um, yeah. And, and, 
[00:47:17] Josh: right. Yo, totally. And yeah, going back to the lifestyle design, which we're both big on, is Yeah, it's, it's all about a sustainable pace. That's a big one, is I don't want my students working 70, 80 hours a week. I'm, I think in every course I say, take your time. Like apply this step by step. Learn, apply, learn, apply. Do not overwhelm yourself. Do not kill yourself, cuz I want you to actually enjoy this process. It, you know, you could have been miserable at this point, Chris. You could still be, you could still be working on your contract at this point. I know . 
[00:47:52] Chris: I would be too. I would be. I'd be going, is it gonna be 10 or 11 pages? And what about the, what about the page with my picture on it that talks all about me or the company story and the second page and Oh 
[00:48:05] Josh: my goodness. Or pricing, you could just kill yourself on not deciding where your prices are, or just, I have no idea. 
[00:48:11] Chris: My first site was 500 bucks. I thought that's fair. You know, and that was, I, I suffered from scope creep and um, just every single thing imaginable on that site, not having the content, all of the stuff, you know. I mean, having, like I said, a way is just, it's one of the most important things. And when you're able to just enjoy what you do, it's really hard to get overwhelmed. You can't, nobody wakes up in the morning and goes, yeah, let's get overwhelmed today. This is gonna be a great day.
[00:48:46] Chris: Right. That doesn't happen. So when you reverse engineer that and you focus on enjoyment, it's really hard to get overwhelmed because it's very easy for you to say, no, no, no. That doesn't sound like fun. I don't, I don't wanna do that. Therefore, another thing that you said is say no right to, to, to things. Don't, don't be afraid to say no, say yes to the great opportunities and be patient and fill your pipeline with those great things. Instead of a hundred things that you would've said no on, take the one. 
[00:49:15] Josh: Yes. Yeah. Um, yep. I, I Generally, I've, I found that you say yes in the beginning to open up those doors and then very quickly learn to say, no, that's gotta be your favorite word.
[00:49:26] Josh: You gotta be a toddler. You just gotta say no. often, and yeah, making room for that because yeah, to your point, you want to get up and you want to enjoy your day. You don't want to, yeah, like I say, you don't wanna wake up, be like, oh, I can't wait to just be stressed and overwhelmed today. And you know, to be honest, what we talked about a little earlier in the conversation with like turning notifications off and blocking your time and allowing time for deep work, I found that to be.
[00:49:50] Josh: I found that as far as the idea of over or avoiding overwhelm, the key for me was to focus on what I had to do or wanted to do. Now, I would still leave time in my day and what I call my reactionary work block for emails catch up stuff. If a client called me and I need to get back with them, that's when I would do that.
[00:50:08] Josh: But the trick was I didn't have my phone on when I was working on that website or when I was doing my deep work. I, I limited the distractions. I turned my phone off. All my notifications are off. What's once side note, once I turned all my notifications off, all my social media and everything, my life changed because I wasn't That's right.
[00:50:26] Josh: Getting dinged. I looked at it when I wanted to look at it. Going back to the saving time, like I don't get ding on the jacket. Latest stuff. I look at that in my segment when I wanna look at it, and then I can spend time with my girls and other stuff. So that's, and 
[00:50:41] Chris: it's more fulfilling that way too. It's more fulfilling. You're getting all the stuff done that you wanna get done, and then you go, okay, now I'm gonna check this out. You check it out and you, you get all the details you want. Now I'm done with that too. It's, you can't even absorb and enjoy the stuff you wanna enjoy when you have all this other stuff on 
[00:50:58] Josh: your mind.
[00:50:58] Josh: It's, yes. It's also the idea, which is like the, the motto of, of my life over the past handful of years is this quote of wherever you are, be there. And I love that because it applies to every aspect of life. If you are doing business stuff, do business stuff. If you're hanging out with your kids, hang out with your kids.
[00:51:21] Josh: If you're watching a YouTube video or playing some music, be there. I know years back I found myself, I was fairly early on when we had my, my first daughter jacket's game was on. I was talking to my wife. I was on the floor with my daughter and I was like on my phone looking at some email, and then half an hour goes by and I realized it took me like 10 times longer to write a couple emails.
[00:51:51] Josh: I don't even remember what my wife was talking about. I didn't even catch what was going on with the game and I feel like I just missed this time with my daughter. Right? So I was doing four things at once and I realized, you know what? I have got to be here. Like, my email time is my email time. Unless a site is down or there's some emergency, which is very rare, then I don't need to look at this right now.
[00:52:11] Josh: Gonna spend time with my family, watch the game, and, you know, segment those out. So that was like a big, um, telling moment for me as far as like really focusing, it's really helped me in business cuz like if I, with this call right now, I'm not checking my email, I'm not doing other stuff. I'm talking to you, Chris.
[00:52:28] Josh: That's what we're doing. Yep. Yeah. So same thing with business. Like, if you're working on a website, don't work on a website and answer email and check Facebook and do all this other stuff, you're gonna find that you're, you're gonna kill your time focusing on those segmented deep work segments. Your time blocks. Talk about avoiding overwhelm. 
[00:52:45] Chris: I, I gotta tell you. I wanna second what you said. The notifications thing was literally, it. It doesn't, it, it, it seems funny to say out loud, but thinking about it, it's the game changer of all game changers. It's not just business time. Once my notifications went off, they all went off and they're never coming back on
[00:53:07] Chris: I don't need a notification. I don't need to be notified. Yeah. I, I know what I need to do. Um, and you just go look at the stuff when you have time to look at it and, and like you said, and, and think about this, is this not, uh, completely. Opposite of what information is out there for most of us. I mean, we're saying don't work too hard.
[00:53:31] Chris: Um, we're not, not hard, but don't, don't work too long, you know? Yeah. Um, schedule your stuff, uh, pay attention to one thing. Most things will tell you you need to be better at multitasking. I can do 11 things at one time for 20 hours a day. You don't really need to sleep. You can sleep when you're dead.
[00:53:46] Chris: Right. Um, well, and you're gonna be 
[00:53:48] Josh: dead soon. You're gonna die pretty quick. Yep. . Um, but, but again, it, it's one of those things 
[00:53:53] Chris: where, um, there's this, there's this pivot of entertainment, um, disguised as information where you, you wanna, you know, you wanna have people looking at you. And, um, that is, you gotta realize that, that that person's business is you watching them. So it's not necessarily like your business, Josh, which is designed to help people excel. And that's a huge, huge, huge difference. And that's why I talk about the difference of knowledge and truth, information versus truth. Um, so, and, and you know, one thing I wanted to touch on too, just wanted to go back a little bit when you were talking about your scheduling.
[00:54:39] Chris: Scheduling time for nothing is something that you have to do, and that, that's a, that was a really big thing that I learned from you is that by the way, Great that you got your scheduling down and now you know what you wanna do. You're putting everything, you're, you're, you're mixing up, but you also, you have to schedule buffer time.
[00:55:01] Chris: That way when an emergency does coming up, you don't hit the overwhelming threshold. You go, Hey, here's an over, here's a, uh, an emergency that comes up. Good thing I've scheduled some buffer time because that's gonna fit right in there and it's not gonna disturb my schedule. 
[00:55:17] Josh: Yeah. And I learned that once I had had a family, because when I was single, and even when I was newly married, I would work up until about five. And then I, like, I, I would schedule like, okay, I'm gonna design a site from like two to five. I would do like a big block or something like that. And then if there was an emergency or if there was something I needed to get done, you know, fairly quickly, I would be like, well, crap, I'll just work late or I'll do it tonight.
[00:55:43] Josh: Well, with kids and with a lifestyle chains like we're at again, that's where I learned I actually need to stop at three. and then leave a buffer to about four of reactionary work. But the beauty is if there's nothing I need to get to, then I have that hour to do what I want. Like I can. And I do that now that I'm, you know, I'm producing a bunch of content.
[00:56:05] Josh: A lot of people ask me, how the heck do you put someone's content out? I'm like, you know what the trick is? And I'm doing it under, you know, 35, 40 hours a week. I rarely, rarely work more than 40. It's deep work, it's work segments. And I'm also growing my team and I'm learning more about that like that.
[00:56:19] Josh: That's huge too. But even when I was doing everything myself, I learned about that and that, yeah, that idea of like stopping your day early to, to give yourself that time for nothing or career actionary work is huge. And the other idea of this nothing thing, which is huge to help you not feel overwhelmed, is you've got plan to plan, 
[00:56:39] Josh: you actually have to make time in your schedule to like think about your business because as everyone finds out, when you start running your business very quickly, your business will start running you, unless you do what we're talking about. Unless you turn off your notifications, right, schedule your time, turn your phone off.
[00:56:56] Josh: You're not at everyone's Beck end call. Even your clients, and I know clients hate to hear that, but unless you have some sort of 24 7 hour agreement, you let them know if they call you, you'll get back to them within 24 hours. Or if it's an emergency, you know very quickly, but you can't expect to be on call and stay creative and main, maintain your business and maintain your sanity, so, right.
[00:57:17] Josh: Yeah. I always 
[00:57:18] Chris: say, Hey, call me whenever you want. If I answer, it's my fault. . 
[00:57:22] Josh: That's a great, that's a great point because honestly, and I think it's different, I found that some clients in certain industries have a hard time with that because they're not in creative industries. And what I've had, and, and this is a, we're I'm probably gonna do a separate podcast on this topic in general, be w w the, the idea of calls and distractions.
[00:57:39] Josh: Because when clients call, a lot of times they're like, Hey, I called, you didn't answer. I'm like, well, I was des I was designing, or I was doing something like I'm not taking calls. My phone's off right now cause we're doing this podcast. I'm not gonna say, oh crap Chris, hold on. I got a client that wants to talk about a homepage design.
[00:57:53] Josh: You know, the, the thing is with creative, well creativity too is that those tasks can completely snap your flow and absolutely the idea of flow is huge. I realize this with, with designing, like I would be in a flow, which is why I learned once I turned notifications off once I turned my. Turn my email off once I got in that flow.
[00:58:18] Josh: It didn't happen instantaneously all the time, but once I got designing I'm like, Ooh, yeah, I could design this and then I could design this. And then before I knew it, I had a homepage design, you know, some other good sections. I'm like, holy crap, this would've taken me two weeks previous to having like this two or three hour block.
[00:58:35] Chris: Well, I think it's also important when we talk about flow to realize that the client has a flow too. Yeah. Um, you're usually designing for a business owner, and so to a business owner, they may also be overwhelmed and you don't want to be, um, a piece of that puzzle. You want to be a relief to that puzzle.
[00:58:53] Chris: So having a tool, I think a lot of people get into the mindset, whereas I wanna be available for my clients whenever they need me, because that makes it easy on 'em. Well, it doesn't all the time. Um, what does though is having a tool like Basecamp, which allows them to. When they get an idea or when they think of something, or when they have time, when they're in their mental flow, they can get everything out that they need.
[00:59:17] Chris: But then you are able to go there and you're, you're, you're actually doing more of a service by being able to not take that on the spot when you're not ready. Don't want to deal with it. Yes. And you're not prepared. You're able to look at that and go, , um, now I'm gonna handle this. 
[00:59:35] Chris: Now let me go get all of the things that I need so I can send one direct response that has everything that they need in it, and the next time that they're in the, their flow and, and they're, uh, their schedule opens up and they're ready to receive the information, they can do it on their own pace, whether it's one o'clock in the morning or not. Yeah. And they have a comprehensive answer to their question instead. A phone conversation that nobody has notes on. 
[01:00:02] Josh: Yeah. Or something that's gonna get lost. A random email or a text that like, crap, I, what did they say? Like, shouldn't be texting me anyway, there's all these different notification or a Facebook message or something like that.
[01:00:13] Josh: Like the reality is you have to tell what, which, you know this, going through my business course, I talk about this in detail with this idea. You have to tell your clients how you do things and how you want them to do things, which to your point, is actually gonna help them in the long run because it gives them kind of going back to the idea of a proven path to follow.
[01:00:33] Josh: It's like, here's what works for us, and here we're gonna guide you on how we collect content, when we collect content, how we're gonna do each stuff and we're gonna help you and we're gonna make this fun. It's not, cuz Yeah, if you just start a website and you just leave it up to your client here, word to the why's everybody.
[01:00:48] Josh: If you just start your website and you say, Hey, go ahead and send me all the info for the website. Guess what's gonna happen? You're gonna get a hundred emails randomly. To your point, Chris, all throughout the, the day or the night, it's amazing how many clients work insane hours. Like most people just don't stop working.
[01:01:05] Josh: I used to get texts at like two 30 in the morning until I got serious about my communication channels, and I'm like, what is this person doing up at two 30 on a Friday night? Like, did they, and what I know they didn't just leave a bar because they were like, we know exactly mom in their late forties , you know, like, like, I was like, what are they doing up work?
[01:01:24] Josh: Which, you know what I understood, what I realized is they were running their business and they were killing themselves. And then after they did that, that's two 30 on a Friday night is when they had time to focus on their business. But again, again, well, you 
[01:01:35] Chris: start to realize that overwhelm is not just reserved for the.
[01:01:40] Josh: Yeah, good point. Yeah. And it can, yeah, you can overwhelm your client, but to your point, like having a communication channel like Basecamp or whatever project management you're using, where you can organize things in threads. If they wanna post something on two 30 in the morning on Friday night, they can go for it.
[01:01:56] Josh: But you don't need to look at that until Monday morning or whenever you are gonna look at it. So, so yeah, that's crucial, man. I mean, we're hitting on some super, super important stuff because if you don't do all this and you don't have a handle on this, you're just, you're gonna get overwhelmed. It's gonna be an a, a very not fun experience.
[01:02:16] Josh: And you're gonna, I mean, there's nothing worse than waking up. And I don't know, I don't know if you felt this with the SEO business, but when you wake up and you just, ugh, you just don't enjoy your day, that's the worst. You know, I love, like, uh, one of my buddies, John Wooten has famously said, remember when Sunday nights used to suck?
[01:02:33] Josh: Because when I was a cabinet maker, I, that wasn't a terrible job, but man, I did. I didn't enjoy Monday mornings, I'll tell you that much. I was like, Ugh. I wasn't what I really wanted to do. I, I like, can't wait to start Mondays now cuz I'm pumped up to get going. 
[01:02:46] Chris: Yeah. Every day. Every day. I, it's, uh, you know, the first thing I think about when I wake up is what do I get to do today? You know, um, you do things like, I, I get excited to make my schedule. Oh, I can't wait to see a to-do list. Okay. What am I gonna knock out? All of these things. Whereas before I felt like the never ending to-do list. I don't even know. I have so much to do. I don't even know what to do. And then I was gonna do that, but I got an email and then I started responding to that and I got a text and I was responding to the text.
[01:03:13] Chris: I got a phone call and at the end of the day, I am in the same exact place that I started and people have just been moving me around all day and controlling my day and that, yay. There's a good topic too. If you wanna be in control of your, you have to be, In control of your business? Uh, what's the statement? Um, you gotta run the business. Don't let the business run you. Yeah. 
[01:03:36] Josh: Yeah. It's, you're, are you, are you running your business or is your business running you? There's a few different ways to say it. Variations, yeah. It's all about working on the business, not just in the business, but, yeah. I mean, and the fact is, I clients have been very receptive of that.
[01:03:51] Josh: Once I let them know, like, you know, in an effort to get the site done on time, we can't, we're not a twenty four seven call support. Like we have, we have time where we actually need to get the work done. And we're also balancing in their projects and stuff. I mean, most clients are understanding of that.
[01:04:05] Josh: There's an occasional few that just think for some reason that you have no clients and you're just sitting around on your computer just dying to get a call for them to get stuff done. But that's, that's fairly rare. I mean, most everyone understands, you know, you're busy. But the thing is, is as long as you just get back within 24 hours, here's the kicker.
[01:04:23] Josh: You don't have to get the task done in 24 hours if it's, unless it's something emergent, you can just let the go. Yep. Got it. I'm working on it. A non notification notification or a non update, A non update update or however you wanna say it, that's been key. That's Mickey. It's also a key to avoid overwhelm cuz you can say, Hey, got it, we're working on it. Then you get back tomorrow or the next day when, you know, they, you don't have the 
[01:04:46] Chris: pressure of another thing that you have to, you have to, you know, I gotta get back to this person. 
[01:04:50] Josh: You can actually stop working, go play with your kids, hang out with your family and play some music and then worry about tomorrow.
[01:04:55] Josh: You know, what 
[01:04:56] Chris: I've found though is I found that because typically when we're designing a web, a website, it's for a business or, um, you know, a, a personality of somebody that's looking to achieve something, right? I mean, typically for me it's small businesses all the way around. Um, I get my occasional, um, you know, community, community.
[01:05:21] Chris: Blog site or public figure. Somebody just, I just wanna make a site about me. Um, but most of the time it's a small business owner, and I find by telling them how you work and showing them the things that you do and what you don't do, how you manage your time, it's actually received a lot better.
[01:05:39] Chris: And it's, it's a key to, I think, a sale in, in, in a lot of ways because, uh, they know what it's like, they're not doing the things that you are doing. And I think more so they go, wow, that. He's gotta be really good if he's been able to, um, manage his own life in his own time while running a business because yeah, I, I 
[01:06:01] Josh: struggle with that.
[01:06:02] Josh: That's a great point. That's a great though. Yeah. That's a, wow, what a valid point. Like you're, it can be a sales component to your website by just talking about you, your process, you know, being open about your, your family or what your personal life looks like as well. I mean, everyone nowadays wants to know who they're working with.
[01:06:19] Josh: So I've always been very transparent and I encourage my students too, like, don't be afraid to tell 'em where you're at in your life. And, you know, you don't have to, you know, get too personal if you don't want to, but if you have kids, have a picture with your family on your, your team page, cuz your client is gonna respect that.
[01:06:35] Josh: And it's, particularly if you're in that position where you have a family, they're not gonna feel like all, does he have time for me? They're gonna feel like, this guy's probably gonna get crap done because he's got a family to feed. You know? So it actually, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pros to that where I didn't really realize until I.
[01:06:50] Josh: Until I was in that situation. But yeah, that's huge, man. And I found that on that point, the saying I like is your vibe attracts your tribe. Yeah. And it's been a hundred percent true with, with folks like yourself and other students, but then also as a web design agency, you are gonna weed out those people who you don't want by just talking about your process and your stuff.
[01:07:13] Josh: And Yeah. You're, you're gonna, you're also not gonna let people walk over you and take advantage of you if your process and the way you do things is laid out right from the beginning, even sometimes before the lead comes in. Like, this is how we do things. This is Absolutely, yeah. Like, it's huge. 
[01:07:28] Chris: I think the, this topic that we're talking about is, it's an absolute hidden gem in, in the overall community, first of all. Second of all, in the course, um, it's, it's the absolute gem because, um, . Lots of people know what they want, but they might not know what they need. Oh, yeah. And this is one of the things that you absolutely need. Uh, you have to have it and you might not know it, but you, you need it. Um, and I think, I think that, uh, to your point where the, uh, say it again.
[01:08:06] Chris: The vibe in the 
[01:08:07] Josh: tribe. I like that. Your, your vibe. Your vibe attracts your tribe. Your vibe 
[01:08:12] Chris: attracts your tribe. This to me, uh, makes me think of when you say no to someone. And a lot of people are so focused on the money and the sale that they don't realize that there is a long, uh, for me, it's a forever relationship that I'm going into when I accept you as a client, 
[01:08:30] Chris: if I decide that I'm gonna spend the next four to six weeks of my life thinking about you, um, and how to make your website, um, you are becoming a part of. Of of my tribe, like you said, this is, this is not just gonna end when I'm done with your site either. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, turn you into a maintenance client.
[01:08:51] Chris: Yeah. Uh, because it makes so much sense for you. Why wouldn't you want the builder and the creator to also be the maintainer? Um, so when you say yes to somebody, you gotta know, Hey, this is somebody that I'm potentially going to have a relationship with for the life 
[01:09:08] Josh: of my business a long time. Even if they don't for whatever reason, go for a maintenance plan, you will still be their web designer and you'll still hear from them. Could be a few months from now, could be a couple years. Domain stuff, email stuff, updates, ongoing work. They have questions about SEO or other marketing. Your client will be with you and should be with you for a long time. So yeah, that's why going back to saying no in the beginning, uh, or saying yes in the beginning to build your network, but then quickly saying, no, cuz your clients are gonna be there.
[01:09:37] Josh: I mean, I have clients from 2000, like 11. That's crazy. I'm still, and they've seen my, you have clients that fired you? Yeah. Yeah. Like there's lit. Yeah. There's literally like, there's every end of the spectrum with clients. Like Yeah. It's, it's huge. And actually I was talking about the, the cabinet. Oh, the cab.
[01:09:56] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So Chris is referencing, uh, I just posted a, uh, a, uh, picture recently and actually I just talked about it on episode 42 with not burning your bridges because, uh, my previous employer, uh, a cabinet tour bus customizing shop, uh, I got laid off from there in 2009 and I just had a meeting with them to redesign the website, which is gonna be potentially our biggest job ever.
[01:10:17] Josh: We're actually actually working on their proposal tomorrow in my deep work time. Uh, but yeah, like that is, yeah, you don't wanna burn your bridges and Yeah, you just never know where those things are gonna lead. Which I mean really factors into the idea of like just your day and, uh, avoiding overwhelm.
[01:10:33] Josh: And actually one thing you just hit on there, I don't wanna overlook is, A lot of people focus on what they want, to your point, but not what they need. And I love that because it's absolutely true in business and particularly with lifestyle design versus like money. So I, a couple posts ago, a couple podcasts ago, I talked about how to make six figures a hundred thousand dollars or more in web design.
[01:10:57] Josh: And naturally that post, that podcast like exploded. It's, it's my, one of my popular, most popular episodes to date. And it's only like a week old at this point. But I was very careful in that episode. And you know this in the business course to talk about the fact that money is not everything. And the fact is you might not need a hundred thousand dollars yet.
[01:11:19] Josh: You might be in a place where you know what 50 would do fine if you can make 50,000 and you can work 40 hours or less a. That may be completely fine for you, or if you're in a different part of the world, like one of my, uh, subcontractors and close colleagues, Noelle, she's a digital nomad. She spends her times in the Netherland or her time in the Netherlands in, um, South Africa.
[01:11:40] Josh: She doesn't need to make six figures. I mean, it'd be cool, but Right. That's not what she needs. Like she is very much about sustainable pace, lifestyle design, and I consider her successful. She may not be making six figures, but that's all right. She's still, she's maintaining the life that she wants to live, and that's a big and importantly, so does she Yeah.
[01:12:00] Josh: Yeah. And that's a big thing to consider, like that will help you avoid, um, imposter syndrome and overwhelm in general. If you're just doing things in phases, you know, like if you're providing for your family or your situation, and yeah, you wanna get to six figures, but you're not there yet. That is okay.
[01:12:17] Josh: It's, it's all about lifestyle and. The word success, uh, I think can, can really cause a lot of damage, uh, to people's psyche and mentality when starting out well, and 
[01:12:28] Chris: and to, to your point there too, um, you know, when you're in this business and you're doing it the right way, it's not an, if it's a win, you're gonna reach that point.
[01:12:41] Chris: Point. So you're, you're, you're going to make the money that you wanna make. Um, eventually, uh, if you're, if you're following, especially if you, if you take all of your courses and you implement them, I'm gonna tell everybody right now, you will be making whatever money you wanna make in a certain amount of time because, uh, maintenance portions and being there to service previous clients is perennial.
[01:13:04] Chris: It's always there. It's a residual. It's every single month you're gonna build, even if it's pennies. Yeah. Even if it's peanuts, you're gonna build it up. And so maybe, uh, making a hundred thousand a year takes you five years of doing 20,000 a year. Right. But after that point, you, you have these people that are still coming back and doing these things.
[01:13:27] Chris: So, um, part of maybe not being overwhelmed is having, um, Expectations that are external. Uh, meaning, well, I feel like if I'm going into this business, these are the goals that I should have. You don't need to have should haves. You just need to figure out what your balance is and what your quality of life is and what you enjoy doing it, because that's what's attractive.
[01:13:50] Chris: Nobody's at attracted to the dude that has a cloth that's wiping his forehead when you're on the phone with him because he's so stressed out, , you know? Um, 
[01:13:58] Josh: that's a great point. Yeah. No, no, no. Nobody, nobody sweat used car salesman type. Yeah. Well, listen, here's 
[01:14:03] Chris: what, uh, what we're gonna do is, uh, hold on one second.
[01:14:06] Chris: We're, 
[01:14:07] Josh: um, yeah, , 
[01:14:08] Chris: right? That was my mouse pad. Um, you know, I mean, that's not attractive. What's attractive, um, I think is is like, well, and maybe it is. Maybe it is. And if, if that's the case, then you're gonna, your vibe's gonna attract your tribe. Right? Right. And you're just gonna get more of those deals. People that want it done. Now, a personality when I've done quick, 
[01:14:27] Josh: cheap. Yeah. Yeah. 
[01:14:29] Chris: Um, yeah. So on, on the other hand, when you're. In your zone that, that, like for me and, and you as well. When we're happy doing what we want to do, um, people enjoy to work with us. It's not about a deadline, um, as much as it is about, um, a process that they enjoy, the education, the learning.
[01:14:50] Chris: Um, yeah, this is a really big deal for people and a lot of 'em don't know it. They just think it first. Um, a lot of people that I, that I talk to, they think at first, well, I just want a website. Okay, well, why? Um, well, you know, no, I, I definitely know w a lot of things about why you might need one, but I wanna know from you, why is this website important to you?
[01:15:14] Chris: Why, let's talk about this. What, what, what are you gonna use this for? Um, what is this gonna do for you in your life? What does this tool need to do? All of these things, right? And just that, that process of you being calm enough to be able to want to get the best out of them so that you can do your job in a calm way. Um, you know, that, that that changes the whole idea of somebody going through the process with you. 
[01:15:38] Josh: Yeah. So, and it, to your point, like we just talked about, it also helps avoid overwhelm on the client's end. If you're calm Absolutely. And you're together and you're not scrambling and you're not that sweaty salesman type of person that's stressing the client out, that's huge.
[01:15:52] Josh: Yeah. You wanna be the center. And to be honest, this is really important too, when clients do have freak out moments or if they don't like something, you need to be the calming center. I know, uh, last year we had a project where the initial design for whatever reason, just wasn't what our client had in mind, and she just disappeared.
[01:16:10] Josh: We didn't hear from her for like almost two months, and we circled back around and circled back around and finally she got back and she was like, well, we just, we weren't sure, you know, we just didn't care for the initial design and we weren't sure how to tell you about it. And I was, That is, it's totally fine.
[01:16:25] Josh: Like, just talk to us. Like, and when we talked about it once we had that conversation, she was like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. And I was like, it's no problem. Like if you didn't care for it, we'll work on it. We'll change it, we'll, we'll do something different. And there was, there was follow on my end on that for not empowering her to give us what she wanted, but it was also a difficult personality that didn't know what she wanted.
[01:16:44] Josh: So, and Evident long story short, we got the project completed. But yeah, there was like that time where, you know, I, I had to reassure her, like, you can tell us I'm not gonna get all hurt if you say you don't care for this first design. That's, you know, like I'm mature enough to, to realize that maybe she had experiences with designers who did take it personally.
[01:17:03] Josh: Which fyi, don't take crap personally when you're in a web design, because Yeah, for sure. Not everything is gonna work out perfectly in flowers and daisies like gonna be, you're not designing it for you. Yeah. You're not designing it for you. You're gonna have to swallow your pride and, and do all that. But it's a great point, man.
[01:17:18] Josh: It's huge. And actually, uh, one thing I wanted to hit on real quick. I'd like to talk about two things kind of wrapped up in one, and that is confidence and pricing because you sold your first website for what I recommend as the average build. And if you don't mind me saying it, we, I think you were pretty open about it, but you sold it for 3540, 34 97.
[01:17:41] Josh: Which is pretty awesome. For first website design. My, my first website design I sold was 300. So you're off, you're already off to an incredible start, but my question is, you know, I'd like to know how, how you formalized your pricing and your services, but also what gave you the confidence to do that because.
[01:17:58] Josh: What I've found is a lot of students who come through my courses, they're brand new. And one of the biggest things that is lacking is the confidence, which is understandable. It may be lack of experience, it may be age, you know, there's a lot, they may be imposter syndrome. There's a lot of reasons why you might not feel confident. But what a lot of my students have found out, particularly through my business course, is they in that sucker and they are confident because to your point, they've seen what works for me. 
[01:18:24] Josh: Like it is the truth. It's not a, it's not a lie, it's not some sales thing. Like, this is literally what I did and here's some confidence. This is what, like, made me more confident and then here's what I gave to you. So I guess my question is, yeah, like how, how did you feel confident when, when offering your new services and, and to be honest, to be at that price point? Um, 
[01:18:48] Chris: I didn't think about it too much, at the time. But since you asked me, And we're just having a conversation here. There's a couple of things that I think made, it made me confident that, that that's what I was going to charge, period. And it kind of goes back to the preparation portion, which is for one, there you have to be profitable. This, this goes into the enjoyment piece. And when you break down what it takes to create a website, a lot of people don't know when you, when you break down, what your deliverables are, which to me, uh, was again, a freeing part of not being overwhelmed.
[01:19:32] Chris: By taking the, the website business course, I was able to see, okay, here's a proper, first of all, here's a proper process. How do I know when I'm done? Mm. I don't know. Like, I know when I have something that looks nice, how do I know that this is done and professional? That was great for me. Okay. Here's 50 ways to know that you're done. One through 50. In fact, when you get to step 50, you're done. Okay, here you go. I'm done Now. That was, that was one leading thing that helped me 
[01:20:04] Josh: along the way once, did you? And so that's my web design process course. Did you take that before the business course? Yes. Okay. So yeah, that was the path I recommended.
[01:20:13] Josh: Cool. Yeah. Yeah. 
[01:20:14] Chris: Um, and that was really, uh, just having to do with the website, um, design itself. Mm-hmm. , um, more than it was deeper into the tools on, on how to, you know, how to do your contracts, how to do your, your pricing and things like that, which is, that was the proper place for me to be at the time. I wanted the other information. I was trying to get through the classes as soon as possible, but, um, 
[01:20:41] Josh: Luckily the process course is pretty quick too. You could bust that through, you could bust through that one in a day less than or less than that. Yeah. They are 
[01:20:48] Chris: all so quick in the scheme of things because you get everything that you need. You're not given a bunch of instructions to then go figure out how you're gonna apply it when you, when you get, when you get the application at the same time and you can just download and now, now it's yours. It, you know, it's, that's a whole nother podcast. But, um, the, so, so having the process was important cuz now I know what I need to do to deliver this now, now I've, I figure out how long does it take me to deliver this?
[01:21:21] Chris: Yeah. It takes me longer. It takes me longer than it takes, uh, a guy, uh, you know, like you for sure to, to do the same thing. It takes me longer. Well, that means that, um, If I know what, how I value my time, like you said, Hey, if I wanna make X amount of dollars and um, I have, you know, 35 hours, uh, a week to work and this is gonna take me 40 hours or 60 hours, in my case is what I was looking at.
[01:21:54] Chris: Um, it was taking me about 60 hours to where most people takes 'em 25, 30, double the time cuz I'm new. Um, but I also get really creative in, in different areas. Um, so just, that's just the time. That's what it takes. So when I look at, okay, this is gonna take 60 hours. If I charge $2,000, then I'm paying this person to make a website for them.
[01:22:19] Chris: Yeah. Um, so that's not gonna be fair to either of us. That is gonna drive up the feeling of overwhelm. Um, and it's also going to, going to, going to create some discontent. After I reach that threshold, there's gonna be a third of the process that I'm like, I'm not even getting paid for this. I, I gotta, we gotta finish this website.
[01:22:39] Chris: It's not enjoyable. Yeah. So in order to make it fair on all ways around, what I did was look at what you, um, recommend as your, your general pricing. And then thought, okay, if I can charge this amount and I can get it done in this amount of time, um, there will be a profitable margin and I'll end up with a, with a great overall process.
[01:23:03] Chris: And so that was the determining factor on why it made me confident to offer that. Because if we weren't gonna get it accepted, I didn't want the deal. It, it wasn't a deal any other way because. It was gonna be a disadvantage for somebody, and that's right there where the client's gonna be happy. They're gonna get everything they want.
[01:23:26] Chris: They're not gonna get shorted for time. They're not gonna get shorted for features. And they're gonna end up with an enjoyable process with me who's just as excited about doing the site as they are to receive it. Yeah. 
[01:23:39] Josh: Yeah. So it's so true, man. I'm, I'm, I'm envisioning you like going through the beginner's course and the process course and all that, and then like, I imagine the dollar that's the blurb is Yeah, I blurb
[01:23:50] Josh: I imagine the dollar signs are just, you know, in a weird way like racking up because you figure like, okay, I'm through the beginner's course, I feel like I could confidently do a thousand. Oh, and then you go through the design course and then we're up to 2000. Then we go, you already knew seo, but you go, this is what I tell my students.
[01:24:04] Josh: You go through that course and you're up to like 2,500 on average, and then you go through the business course or 3,500 on average. It really does build like that. Like it really, my courses are structured to my journey as far as like what stage I was in when I started raising my rates from a thousand to 1500 and then from 1500 to two to 2,500 and then, you know, to 3000 to 4,000.
[01:24:27] Josh: And now we're doing. You know, I'm not shy at all with doing estimates between five to 10,000. And we've, I used all, I did a webinar in the business course. My top one to this point was 15,000. Um, and I walked through how I sold that bad boy and you know, what that proposal looked like and everything. And then we've got a couple that are gonna be probably in the 20 range.
[01:24:46] Josh: So like you, you build the confidence off of proven paths and it comes with more experience for sure. Explaining the value and just becoming more valuable. And a lot of that honestly, like, yeah, it's just here, hearing you say 
[01:25:00] Chris: that there's a simpler way to put it where the confidence comes from offering the prices. You know exactly why. 
[01:25:06] Josh: Hmm. That's good. How many times 
[01:25:08] Chris: in, in seo, I gotta be honest here. Uh, that the price is the price. I said so, and um, I don't know because this is the money that you wanna make or something like that. It's not actually defined. Sometimes you make money on a $2,000 deal, sometimes you lose money.
[01:25:28] Chris: Right? Yeah. That's not, that doesn't have to be that way. You get confidence from a price by knowing this is why it's that much. I'm gonna show you exactly why in my deliverables, cuz I'm gonna do all of these things, right? Yeah. And most people 
[01:25:41] Josh: aren't getting that, you know, one, one approach. I've talked with clients too that w that we're looking at kind of rolling out my agency in a little more detail is we often will talk about to clients the value of their customers and the value of the website to them.
[01:25:56] Josh: So that was a really confusing way of saying if a customer is like, oh, $3,500, like, like your first website, 34 97. It's like, oh man, it's a lot of money. Well, let's say, what does your average customer pay, you know, for your services? Well, if it's 500, then it's actually only gonna take, what is that, six, six and a half clients to make up for that website.
[01:26:21] Josh: And then it's all profit from there. So like their investment, as long as the website converts six and a half people, it's paid for and then it's all proper from there. Like, that's a mentality that I've, I've talked with some of my clients and then they're like, oh, oh, okay, that makes sense. This is why, you know, why the 
[01:26:38] Chris: average client that doesn't take that? What are they gonna do? Go to Squarespace or Wick. Okay. And what happens? They get on the platform for free, they get into a page builder, um, and they realize I don't have a domain and I don't have hosting, but Squarespace will give this to me. So what, where, where you at? Uh, 30, let's just say 50 bucks a month typically.
[01:26:56] Chris: Right? Okay. So now you're paying 50 bucks a month. You got your custom stuff, you're, you're ready to go. However, um, You don't know how to finish your site the way that you imagined it would look. So what do you do? You go find someone, um, you go find someone that will, uh, design a template for you or, you know, so that's 500 bucks, right?
[01:27:19] Chris: So you pay 500, but you're like, well, this is 500. It's still better than 3,500. But if you do the math, you're five times 12. Is 600 bucks a right? So you, you now, your first year, you've already spent 500 plus 600 to $1,100, and you're gonna pay $600 a year to have this subpar site that 
[01:27:40] Josh: isn't, it's not converting, not, not good for seo.
[01:27:43] Josh: You don't own it. And then it's also like you're not a designer. Think about how much time is wasted if they actually value their time. You know what's funny? Years ago I had a, a friend who was like, do you think like Wick and Squarespace is gonna kill your business? And it kind of worried me. And then what I realized is that they've been some of the best lead magnets for me because people have miserable.
[01:28:04] Josh: Experiences. I don't know anyone's who is like, man, I just love my WIC site. It just was easy to use. It looks great. It's converting, it does great on sel. That is, that does not happen. So it's actually proven, the only person that says that is the people in the ads. The salespeople. Yep. And then, uh, yeah, they just try to make sure somebody doesn't use it all the way through within that 30 days so they don't have to refund.
[01:28:25] Josh: Uh, so that actual 
[01:28:26] Chris: particular site that we're talking about, that was the first sale was a WIC site. It was a brand new site and Oh, really? The, uh, and the lady was curious how to do SEO on it, and I was like, let's not even go there. Let's talk about how to get you a real website. Nice. You don't need to figure that stuff out.
[01:28:44] Chris: And then I asked her what, you know, what you don't like and stuff. Well, I don't like how, um, when I put a picture up, I have to put a caption or else it doesn't show. Um, I don't like the limitations to the design. Like, I'd really like this to be right over here, but I can't. And things like that. 
[01:29:00] Chris: Well, this is exactly why you want a custom site because it's, you know, so, um, yeah. I, I, I agree. And I think that that also, um, educating people on their options, right? That's another thing to let 'em know, well, what, what if we even 3,500 sounds like a lot of money. What are you gonna do then? What's your plan other than this?
[01:29:19] Chris: What do you think's gonna happen? Right. And letting them know, what does this entail? Because getting a, you know, when you're comparing somebody giving you a template for 500 bucks, which typically costs 30 anyway, and, uh, or, or getting a full website build with tutorials, um, and everything that you wanted, assuming that it's within that, um, those guidelines.
[01:29:43] Chris: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, those number of pages, um, allowing them to know too, Hey, you want all of this stuff? Let me show you what that means to a web designer. Okay. If you want, you know, to them it's, well, I just want this. Okay, well, that's 35 pages, so that's gonna be a, a, a $5,000 site. You know, oh, well, uh, maybe I don't need all of that.
[01:30:04] Chris: Maybe you don't, but, but 
[01:30:06] Josh: having these phased guidelines, phase, phase one's 3,500, phase two is building the other pages and add an seo. Yeah. Yeah. And by the 
[01:30:13] Chris: way, why don't we just find something that fits in this $3,500 realm, and then while you're on my maintenance plan, I'll give you an hour free a month of, of little things here and there we can chip away at some stuff for you.
[01:30:23] Josh: That's it, man. You know, I, a lot of clients, the, the struggle as web designers we face now is the $1 do-it-yourself, wick, Squarespace, all that kind of stuff. However, it has proven to be, you know, A good lead source for us, for people who are frustrated because when people come frustrated, they're willing to pay more.
[01:30:41] Josh: They're like, whatever, just you do it. Uh, which in a weird way can actually work out to our benefit. However, one thing I was gonna say is that in regards to like explaining the value, it's, it's critical to not only talk about the value technically from the website, but also just the value of working with you, the experience.
[01:30:59] Josh: And as you, you know, to your point Chris, like the value of you, the experience with you coming outta my business course was well worth the $3,500. Whereas if you were, if you didn't have a project management system, you were still working on all that stuff, maybe the value wouldn't have been at that price level. Maybe it would've been a thousand dollars experience versus a $3,500 type of experience. So there's all those, it might have been other 
[01:31:25] Chris: factors. Absolute business killing experience to get into a position where I was not prepared, you know? Yeah. 
[01:31:33] Josh: Very true man. Yeah. So there's all those other factors in there that contribute to, to pricing and to the confidence. But I love hearing how you felt confident and how, you know, not only the courses, but just your experience and then also you kind of setting a bar like, this is what I charged the, it's not around this. Or, you know, what's your budget look like? It's like this for this type of website, it's our $3,500 middle range site, medium site.
[01:31:58] Josh: Um, so that's awesome, man. I'm, man, I'm super pumped for you. Um, it's awesome, Chris, to see your, your journey really be expedited and explode. So far, we haven't even talked about scaling or anything like that, that I know you're getting into, but maybe we can save that for another one. Um, we've covered some great stuff.
[01:32:15] Josh: Look forward, man. We've covered some awesome stuff in this talk. I think the idea of, you know, what you did to expedite your journey is huge, starting with your mentality. Uh, we talked about some of the tools and resources. We talked about solidifying your lifestyle first with that, your five pillars, which is, which is huge, and I think everybody should do that.
[01:32:33] Josh: Figure out what kind of lifestyle you want and then that will help you with the amount of money, quite frankly, that you need. Like, again, you may not need to hit six figures at, well, do you want to one day? Absolutely. That's awesome. But don't pressure yourself and don't kill yourself in year one. If you only need to make 25 to pay your bills and then still work under 40 hours a week, go for 25 or maybe go for a little bit more, and then if you hit 25, awesome.
[01:32:57] Josh: But then go up from there. Yeah, it doesn't, you know, I think that's a big thing with overwhelm. I mean, we talked about how you were able to solidify your services and your pricing with, you know, with confidence and then really sounded like the process and a lot of the technical stuff really contributed to your confidence, which is great. Um, so yeah, man, I mean, overall succeed 
[01:33:16] Chris: taking the suite of courses, um, because I, I got the bundle after you know, after looking at it, and I just went, I'm just gonna get 'em all and just give me the order. Um, that was the single most contributing factor to decreasing overwhelm that I can say across the board in everything, because it, it, it took out having to, to, I mean, it really just took out being overwhelmed and it only left over application, application. Applying those things was the only thing left to do, and I have plenty of time to do that, you know? So, um, yeah, I mean, thanks. 
[01:33:57] Josh: That's great. Well, I really appreciate hearing that, Chris. I love, I I love that you were open about that because Yeah. You know, come to think about it or come to think of it. Yeah. If you, like, if you do everything on your own and you need to learn Dian WordPress at first and you're brand new, , that's a lot of time. You could, you know, you could spend months doing that if you wanted to. Uh, the, the beginner's course for me is like, here's the most important things you need to know. Let's apply, let's get going, work on the advanced stuff as we move on. But that was said, the huge But the 
[01:34:28] Chris: keyword need there, you said need, need to know. Yeah. See, if you, if you're, if you're going on your own, you're usually only going to discover the things you want to discover. Oh, the things that's good that you think you want, you're not gonna, uh, most people are not going to, to generate searches for things that they need.
[01:34:47] Chris: Cause that's just not how our flesh works. We we're looking for what we want to know. Right. Um, yeah, that's a good point. And by taking a course of somebody that's a leader, that's going to educate you on all the things you need to know, you're gonna fill in all the spots that you won't even know are holes 
[01:35:04] Josh: in your game.
[01:35:05] Josh: Yeah, and you can make it your own too. Like you talked about the contract and the verbiage that I, that I show that I send to clients in the process. But yeah, I provide the template, but by golly, put your spin on it. Put your own flair and your personality to it. And then the same idea with all these topics that I have my courses on. S e o, you could never stop learning about sel it. The problem is, is you can't learn s e all the way through because it never stops. It's 
[01:35:30] Chris: inevitably i'll you after 10 years. It's not 10 years of learning. It's basically like every couple months relearning. It's, yeah, that's 
[01:35:41] Josh: just a constant . Yeah, it's, it's why I actually did my s e o course last, uh, because I, I was like, I never felt like an expert in seo, but I got to the point where it was requested so much and I realized, you know what?
[01:35:52] Josh: I have learned a lot. I don't know everything, but nobody knows everything about SEO o but I know enough. And I've learned enough with my sites and my client's sites to feel like I can put the absolute most important things you need to know for organic SEO in this course. Bam. There it is. Same thing with design and even with the business course.
[01:36:10] Josh: I mean, each one of those modules, man, as you know Chris, they could have been their own courses. Like, but oh yeah, cover it in what you need to know. Here's the truth, here's what's worked for me here is literally like what I do. And make it your own. Put it into action. But that's the big thing. You called it, it's application, it's learning.
[01:36:29] Josh: That's what, and then do it. That's what allows you 
[01:36:32] Chris: to, to actually hit the ground running though you're not getting overloaded with a bunch of stuff that you could do. This is what you need to do. This is what you need to know. You can take this and have a business tomorrow. Okay. And then if you wanna go crazy with it, go 
[01:36:48] Josh: crazy.
[01:36:49] Josh: Yeah. You know, 
[01:36:50] Chris: uh, add all kinds of stuff if you want, but it's not gonna prevent you from 
[01:36:54] Josh: moving forward. Yeah. Great man. Great, great point. We, yeah, we've covered some awesome stuff in this talk. I'm, I'm definitely jazzed up and fired up. And one thing I wanted to say, I was gonna ask you here for a final thought before we wrap up.
[01:37:06] Josh: One thing I did wanna say that I, I meant to mention earlier, cause I pulled up, uh, on episode podcast, episode 33. I talked with a buddy of mine who's a realtor actually. And, uh, something he said that's very applicable to this is the apps or the, the, um, fear and anxiety are caused by an a, or, excuse me, fear and anxiety are caused by a lack of a proven path.
[01:37:26] Josh: That was the quote, I was just trying to think of the quote. And I love that. And I think that applies here. Find a proven path, stick with it, learn, apply, change as you go, ma. Make it your own. And that's what you've done. Chris, I'm s I'm super pumped for you, man. I appreciate you being transparent and real with us in this talk.
[01:37:42] Josh: And, uh, I'm just again fired up for you. Do you have any like, maybe like a final thought for anyone who's in that position where they want to expedite their journey, they want to hit the ground, what, what would you say to them? I guess I would say 
[01:37:55] Chris: just watch this again, whatever we just went over because we're touching on, on a bunch of stuff. And, um, also, uh, just, you know, nobody ever tells you to figure out what you want first. They're always telling you what you should do. Everything that you go to discover is, here's what you should do. Hey, uh, here's how to do this. Here's how to achieve this. Here's what you need to know to do this. Well, like I said, there's a lot of information out there, but, but not a lot of truth.
[01:38:26] Chris: And one of the things you need to do is separate from all of that stuff and give yourself, give yourself the opportunity to figure out what you want. You might not know, you might not know. You might still just be doing what you think is the right thing to do, or, or, you know, finding the way that you think are things to do.
[01:38:44] Chris: And if you give yourself, when you start out the opportunity to figure out what you want, write it down and then build to that. . Um, there is no failure there, there, it, it, it completely dissipates failure because you're doing what you want. It's only a matter of time and it becomes an, uh, a when, not an 
[01:39:04] Josh: if.
[01:39:06] Josh: Love it. That's great, man. Great. Final thought to end us off here. Uh, everyone can check out your website at, how do you say your website? Is it Yu Kiki? It's Yuki. Yuki. Yuki. Uh, 
[01:39:17] Chris: yeah. It, it's a, it's a acronym. It's, uh, you 
[01:39:20] Josh: know it I know it. Love that. I was actually looking at your belt, knows it. That's great, man yeah, so I'll link that up in the show notes so you can fall along with Chris and then, uh, man, super pump for you. Let's keep in touch here, Chris. And then, uh, we'll just, I, well we're already in touch cuz we're talking about what you're doing with your team now with scaling that, which I'm fired up on. I'm sure this won't be the only time I have you on the podcast cuz I think we'll have a, uh, plethora of topics we could dive into, uh, here moving forward. Yeah, we're growing 
[01:39:45] Chris: fast. I appreciate everything you do and uh, I hope everybody else does too. It takes a lot. Uh, uh, for you to, to you. Put the time that you take into giving direction that somebody can actually take this and create a lifestyle out of it's just amazing. So, 
[01:40:02] Josh: you know, I, it's been the most rewarding thing, man. It's been the most reward. I just love it. Like talking with you just lights me up. It's, it's literally why I, I do these courses and, and podcasts and, and content, so Appreciate it, man. This has been great. You bet. All right. All right, Chris.
[01:40:15] Josh: Cheers. Talk soon. All right.