WEBVTT
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Go often tracking everything.
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Go ahead and already have the already know.
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I know it's always, I always say the same thing.
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It's always very troubling as a citizen, but then as a marketer, I want that animation.
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My husband, like, set up his new life on the new ways.
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Welcome back to Torch Talk, the show where we spotlight bold leaders growing businesses and communities with grit and purpose.
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Today's guest is Jordan Wright, digital and local sales manager at WKYC TV and Techna Media.
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In this Torch Talk episode, we'll explore how to approach data-driven marketing and take a deeper dive into how businesses can drive traffic, build stronger brands, and solve real challenges using digital media strategies.
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Welcome to Torch Talk, Jordan.
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Thanks, Lindsay.
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Thanks for having me.
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That's awesome.
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We finally get to dive into all the things that you guys do, which is very dynamic.
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We've worked together for quite some time.
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A while now, yeah.
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I was trying to remember, I don't actually have any number.
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I mean, it's been at least five, six years because I've been here eight years.
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We have had, well, Fierce will be five years this year.
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Oh, okay.
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So it'll be I mean, for the entire time of Fierce, but I think you know, I've worked with WKYC even prior to that year.
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So a really great relationship, and we appreciate the partnership with you guys.
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So why don't we tell everybody a little bit of what it is that you do?
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Because they don't know what they're listening to right now.
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So WKYC is the NBC affiliate in Cleveland, but we also do streaming television through a company called Premion, which Tegna also owns.
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And that is really where we've seen the most growth in the television space.
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And you know, like when I first started eight years ago, the streaming space, you had to convince people to think about advertising within the streaming space.
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And I remember being at Launch and Learns, and people would say, but what about live sports?
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What about news?
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And admittedly, even at that time as a consumer, I had Netflix, Amazon Prime, HBO, but none of them were ad supported.
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So even as a consumer, it was like, well, it's out there.
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And there was, there was a lot of inventory.
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There was Sling Television, there was network apps, um, but the consumption wasn't huge.
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Like, so for example, if I was talking to a car dealership, for instance, I could maybe do auto intenders in the entire DMA to have scale.
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And now, if you fast forward to present day in 2026, if you did auto intenders in the entire DMA, it'd be a lot of money.
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It would be a ton of money.
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And unless you were spending$100,000 a month, it would be a raindrop in the ocean.
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So what's happened is consumption's gone through the roof.
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No one is asking anymore about can you watch sports on Twitter?
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It's actually probably the opposite.
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Most of the time you have to convince people to go on broadcast television.
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Like, why would I do that?
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You're exactly right.
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It is, it's crazy.
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The problems that we had, you know, eight years ago are not the problems we have now.
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We have different problems.
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And it's almost the space is just too crazy.
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And as a consumer, you know, like I have to Google where can I watch the calves tonight?
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And that's the problem now.
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It really is kind of crazy, especially if you're I mean, even with TV shows, I'll get advertisements for TV shows, but you have no idea where to go watch them.
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Yeah.
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And so yeah, you have to like look that up.
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Scrolling the guide is no longer a thing or just knowing where to go, like for my Browns or Cavs or what Indians, Guardians, whatever it is.
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Like you just it could be on Amazon one night and it could be on your channel the next.
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Well, exactly.
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This space is so fragmented, yeah.
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Which is is a it's a challenge, and it's a challenge as an NBC affiliate as well.
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But also on the other side of that, it's a huge opportunity because we have this thing called Premion, which is a streaming aggregator where we can reach all of these things.
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Which what so that for people that are listening, what does a streaming aggregator mean?
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So basically, you know, first just to back up a little bit, Premion started in 2016.
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And like, so even take yourself back to 2016, 10 years ago, there was network apps, sling television, like streaming space wasn't this Goliath that it is right now.
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But what a streaming aggregator does does and did back then is we went to each one of those locations, networks and different partnerships, and bought that inventory.
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And we bought it directly from each one of those providers, and we touted that as well.
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I mean, we would go out onto the street and say, Hey, we have direct inventory, meaning our ad stack aligns right with their ad stack, we're server-to-server integrated, and that's how we get our inventory.
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And we also are buying just the inventory at the very top of that waterfall.
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So we So that means higher quality, higher quality, higher viewership rate, meaning I always take it back to the a consumer perspective.
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If I'm starting a program, I'm way more likely to watch the commercials at the beginning of that program versus the end of that program.
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Because that's when people bail off.
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So we were touting that.
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We were touting high video completion rates.
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Beyond that, we didn't have much analytics back then.
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And so now in 2026, what it means to be an aggregator is there's no longer this server-to-server integration.
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It is all through demand-side platforms, which also has made the space way more commoditized.
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I mean, I'm sure all of your partners sell streaming television now and have access to you know some sort of demand-side platform.
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They do, but they're not all at the same quality of what you guys sell, which is why honestly we love the premium product as well.
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So from a quality standpoint, from a targeting standpoint, there's a number of reasons why we would choose Premion.
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And I have tested uh multiple other local um partners to you in Cleveland or competitors to you in Cleveland, but also just um because uh you know you can go buy direct on Hulu yourself if you want.
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You can buy directly through Spectrum.
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Like there's different um streaming vendors out there that you can try, but we get the best results when we work with you.
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Well, I appreciate it.
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I'm that's just the truth.
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I'm not trying to sell sell what you're doing.
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It's no, I know you want to you of all people would not buy us.
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You would send us a Christmas card still, but you want to buy us.
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Um and so, yeah, so we take that world of streaming and try to package it up for our clients and our agencies and their clients so that we're reaching geographically where they want to hit, and then demographically, and then audience segments that they want to hit.
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And then also to your point, our why buy is it's safe, fraud-free, brand safe inventory.
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And we have layers within the technology that does that as well, that identifies fraud because once again, digital medium, there is a lot of fraud.
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What is like that's a question.
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I will say that when I'm talking to people that you're fraud safe, but give us examples of what that looks like.
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So an example could be that you have all of these supply side platforms, so SSD or SSPs, and what they are trying to do is buy inventory so that they can resell at a higher rate.
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So especially if you ask your system, your DSP to say, I want the cheapest inventory as as possible so that I can resell that for and get a higher margin, then I'm just looking for that rate.
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And a company could mimic, like instead of a Netflix, you could change a letter and it'd be say Netflix.
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And I could put imaginary inventory on that, and it's fraudulent.
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It's in in and I sell that to the supply side dashboard, then it goes to a demand side uh platform, and then the commercial goes to nowhere.
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And they get fake analytics saying that it was reported and everything, and they really don't know.
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Impressions delivered.
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Their commercial was never actually seen by real people.
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And that's the challenge within the streaming space in general, is because on traditional television, I can tell you if you're advertising in the 7P news, I can tell you what time to turn TV on, um, and you're gonna see your commercial.
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Yeah.
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With with digital advertising and streaming, you don't do that.
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If you're not in the right demographic and you're not targeting yourself, yeah.
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Geo gra geographic area, you might not see the commercial.
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You might not see the spot.
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So there is this level of trust, which is also another thing that we tout, and we don't take it lightly that our clients trust us.
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So we push our company like to make sure that the inventory that we're providing is not the fraudulent inventory.
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And so we have these certifications from a company that takes it very seriously.
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It's called TAG is the acronym, Trustworthy Accountability Group, who monitors all our inventory to make sure that there's none of that fraudulent inventory.
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But fraud could also take take the place of, you know, I'm gonna deliver on the Fireplace app during Christmas time.
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It's not necessarily necessarily a quality commercial, but it's gonna be incredibly high video completion rates because people put that fireplace app and they just keep it up.
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Yeah, yeah, they're not watching it or pet TV.
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Yeah, like if my dog sees a commercial, like it's a hundred percent video completion rate, but it's just not a quality impression.
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So fraudulent inventory runs the gambit and it's changed and took taken many forms throughout the years, but it's something that all companies should be aware of, and it's it's a problem.
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But I think with artificial intelligence, we're gonna minimize and see minimal supply side dashboards or supply side platforms and more just direct to network inventory, which is where the where everything started, but it'll be more streamlined.
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It won't be so much um like you where you have to plug into that actual ad stack.
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So if I am a service contractor and maybe I have bought directly through one of the platforms that we're talking about, how could I, what could I look at maybe in my reporting or what are the indicators that that could possibly be fraud?
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Every you know, streaming company has a dashboard where they're gonna show delivery.
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And at this point, it should be table stakes that you're gonna show every impression to every network and provider.
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So take a look at those providers.
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Make sure that one, they're spelled correctly, make sure that there's no NAs.
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Um, because honestly, sometimes that does pop up where we have to go back and identify what that actual network or provider is.
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Because, you know, it could be something as simple as, hey, we didn't know where to to attribute that impression, whether it would be like Hulu or a network on Hulu, or it could be fraudulent inventory.
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If they can't find an answer to that, where it's like, no, we just don't know what that inventory provider is, that's a bad sign.
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Okay.
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And we do see that.
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Um, and we see that within competitive reports, where we'll ask the question, hey, figure out where this inventory is coming from.
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And in the streaming space, there is a there's a ton, hundreds of legitimate, legitimate streaming providers.
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And half of them we haven't heard the the names of then get desensitized to, oh yeah, that's just some random.
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It's just something.
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It's a free one out there that somebody has, but if the commercial is being seen, then you just kind of get desensitized to trusting that it's being delivered.
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Exactly.
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So, like, have an AI engine be your friend, have Google be your friend.
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Just if I don't know a provider, and this still happens to me, where it'll pop up in the top 10, and I'll be like, I don't know what that provider is.
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And so I'll have to Google it and learn a little bit about the company, but take that time to do that.
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Also, um, you probably have different points of attribution that that streaming company is utilizing.
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Match up your website attribution delivery to your actual delivery.
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Because chances are those are two different companies that are measuring your website visits from people who saw the commercial and then went to the website to the actual company that is the demand side platform that distributing your ads.
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Those should match up.
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And that's what I like to point out to my clients is say, hey, look at the top 10 of your delivery on our just normal premium report, and then look at the top 10 in website delivery, and it should be the exact same.
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And it's two different companies.
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So, but in order to measure the website delivery or attribution, they would have had to place a pixel or code on your website in the first place.
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Yeah, so as of right now, yes.
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And would they do the fraud companies even try to do that?
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So that could be a trigger to me, even if you have bought from a platform and they haven't even requested to put a pixel on your website, then that could be a trigger to they're not even trying to track it.
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That's a great point, and that's actually a good segue, not only to fraudulent traffic, but also companies mixing in different types of ads within their streaming campaigns.
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So especially if a company is buying directly through like a YouTube TV, they're using a platform called DV360, which is fine, and that's a great platform, but they could be delivering pay-per-click ads through that.
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They could be delivering YouTube through that, they could be um delivering display through that, which could give you a click-through rate.
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Well, with connected TV, we shouldn't see click-through rates, at least with our inventory.
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Our inventory is mostly a connected television, meaning it is on a TV-like program.
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It's nothing that you can click.
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So that checks the box of getting fraudulent clicks.
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We're just tracking through IP address.
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So if I deliver a commercial to your house and you have an internet connection, you have an IP address.
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And then if that same IP address then goes to my website, I match those two things up.
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And that's where we get a website transition.
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And that's not fraudulent because it's just it's literally just matching IP to IP.
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Let's talk about IP addresses while we're here.
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Yep.
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So there has been a lot of movement in the marketing world in the last five years of owning fierce when it comes to privacy, security, uh tracking on Google ads and Facebook ads, it's wild.
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I mean, I'm looking at we were we did 2025 annual performance reviews, and I had some clients have a 30% increase in unknown traffic.
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Yeah.
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Because people are opting out, even on my team.
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I'm not calling anybody out, yeah, but I'm on a team of marketers and I probably got 50% of people who are wanting to opt out of being tracked because they don't want they don't want the ads themselves.
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So we understand the world you're all living in.
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It's Vale's very big brother.
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But it's different.
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Yeah.
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How you track and identify people is a little bit different because you're you're going directly through IP addresses.
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So talk us, talk to us about that.
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Yeah, so if you are a household that has an internet connection, has Wi-Fi, then you have an IP address.
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Now, you could have several different IP addresses through the lifespan of that Wi-Fi.
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But what we're trying to do is match that IP address with an IP address that we're actually delivering to.
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So even if the IP address changes, if we deliver to an IP address and that same IP address then comes to the website, we know that that match happens.
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Now, tracking has become tricky.
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Uh, when we first started, actually, we could track the devices within those IP addresses, and we could, I don't know if you remember this.
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You used to be able to say there's how many TVs and phones within.
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Yes.
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So then you knew if the IP address was watching on a TV or an iPad or a phone.
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Yeah.
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And really a combination of all of those.
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I mean, and it was crazy.
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And and also if one of those devices then went to my brick and mortar location, I could track that as well.
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And then all of the things.
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Yeah, but I have clients who really wish we could still do that.
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Hey, me too.
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Yeah.
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But rules and regulations, and you know, with all of the opt-ins, we the sample size wasn't big enough to track.
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And so there still is some assumptive data out there that you can get.
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Um, we used to go through a company called Foursquare, but we just decided to get out of that space because, you know, it was like one in 20 homes that were actually where we could actually track.
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And it just wasn't enough data to paint a picture that we felt was closed loop attribution.
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So how how do you track or identify, let's say, and I'm gonna get to the targeting in a second, but let's say you're looking for a 45-year-old female with who lives in Wayne County.
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Yeah, I'm not 45 yet, but that's within the age demographic.
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Um how does how do you find that person through the IP?
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Like, what is do you know what I'm saying?
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Like, how do you find the people?
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Yeah, so it so there's a mix of first party and third party data.
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So the third party data I'm gonna get from census information.
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Okay.
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So you've identified through census information that your age, gender, people in the household.
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So then we can say, oh, they have kids in the household.
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So then maybe I can a college can hit me up at some point and say, Hey, I know you have kids in the household when you're thinking about universities and college plannings, or maybe a financial company can hit you up and try to get you on to start, you know, put money away for your kids' college fund.
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So we have that information just through third-party data, and that's really easy.
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And financial data is the same way.
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You know, we could be going through Fidelity, we could be going through a lot of different companies that have data on those individual households.
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And so just remember that you give up so much information about yourself when you buy a home.
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Yeah.
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So opt into tracking everybody.
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Go ahead.
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They already have the information.
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They already know.
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I know it's always I always say the same thing.
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It's always very troubling as a citizen, but then as a marketer, I want that information.
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My husband like set up his new iPhone and he clicked and no, and I was like, what are you doing?
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That is my livelihood right now.
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:16.160
Turn it back on.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.400
Yeah, it's it's getting as close to the target as possible.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:37.839
And that's where we can say that we can help a client build brand with television type advertising, or it is television advertising, but you can also help drive traffic because we are trying to get as close to the consumer, our client's consumer as possible.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:46.960
And so that's where we kind of blur the lines between building brand at a higher level versus actually driving traffic and getting that lower funnel customer.
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.759
So, what's the first party data look like then?
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.400
That's just another layer added on top of that.
00:18:52.720 --> 00:19:01.839
Yeah, so first party, first party data could be just website data that you know you have search history, that you're also, let's just stay on the college motif.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.559
I'm I'm also searching universities.
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:16.480
And that could also fall in line with, oh, this person is they have college age or high school age kids in the household and they're looking for universities online, and that's where that first party data is.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:23.279
And then you use all of that information to match an IP address to the physical address so that you know you're delivering to a TV.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:23.599
Yeah.
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:30.559
Most of the time, what percentage of streaming commercials would you say are delivered on a TV like device?
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:38.640
So with our inventory, yes, and I just looked at this the other day, it's it's about 98% actually show up on a connected television.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.680
Now, with that being said, we have clients that say, I want a hundred percent connected TV.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.640
So we'll do that, and that's really easy for us.
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:52.640
But you know, I mean, like 2% of the time, like if I'm traveling, I'm watching television on a laptop or a phone.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:53.200
Same.
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.400
Um, so like there is that opportunity to catch that consumer.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.039
So we have clients that still want that little fragmentation, but for the most part, our why buy is always connected television.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:13.359
Now, the universe, I mean, a lot of people, you know, I just had a client ask me the other day, because they're buying live sports from us, like how much of this inventory?
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.799
I'm worried that this inventory is gonna be mobile or desktop inventory.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:21.359
And with our live sports product, 100% of our inventory is CTV.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.680
It's actually you don't even have the option.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:32.319
But you can buy CTV, or I'm sorry, you can buy streaming on mobile, you can buy streaming on desktop.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:33.839
It is more affordable too.
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:39.119
But if you are in that situation, if you're targeting the sporting event, do you really care what device they're watching it on?
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.200
Are they more likely to skip a commercial?
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.680
And they're non-skipable, the things that we do with you.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.519
But if you're watching, I mean, my husband might be watching the bronze game on his phone because we're at a kid's event.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:50.559
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:51.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.799
Is there a difference between the two?
00:20:53.119 --> 00:21:00.640
Just the difference in if I deliver impression to you, whether that's a phone or on a television, that's one impression.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:01.599
That's it.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:10.640
But if you deliver to a TV, the statistics are that you're hitting three people instead of just one person on a phone.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.720
So there is that's especially with a sporting event that would be relevant.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.640
There's some economies of scale there.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:26.160
And then, you know, you could show up on a bar, you could show up in all these different situations where a TV's just you're gonna get more bang for the buck as far as an impression goes.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:32.480
And and honestly, that's our company, we own, you know, 64 different TV stations throughout the country.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.279
So we that TV's in our blood.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:43.680
So even though we're a you know 50% of a digital company, we're still geared more towards a TV like audience.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.319
So okay, let's talk about targeting then.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:46.720
Yeah.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:58.720
So the ability to find somebody and really find their audience and and even be able to afford to market to them through streaming television, I think that's what has opened the conversation for us with a lot of our clients.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.319
We are a geographical Geographically positioned between two big TV markets.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.279
Near fringe market.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:11.359
We a lot of our local contractors that we work with might not they don't want to work in downtown Cleveland or downtown Columbus.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:18.799
And so they st they avoided the broadcast market because why would I market to 17 counties when I can only serve the bottom four?
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.119
Yeah.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:31.680
But now they have the ability to say, Oh, I want to hit Wayne, Medina, Tusk, Holmes, whatever, whatever area it is, and their uh who the person is and follow that person around no matter what they're watching.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:32.000
Yeah.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:36.079
That's evolved a lot over the last couple of years and really opened doors.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:40.160
Um, so tell us what you see often when it comes to targeting and how you help partner.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:41.440
Because somebody might come to you.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.000
I know we go and come to you and we're like, well, this is what we think, and we kind of have to wrestle that out a little bit.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.519
We go to the drawing board a lot.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:56.000
Yeah, like I know Mary Alice and the account management team, we go back and forth quite a bit on audiences because we are trying to find that sweet spot.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:03.759
So typically, you'll say, Hey, we are targeting these geographic areas, and that might take the form of just a list of zip codes.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.160
You might want to just do, you know, county-based targeting, which is fine.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:14.480
Because, you know, like I said earlier, you know, when I first started in this business, the scale wasn't huge.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.079
And then post-COVID, scale is there's scale is never a hindrance.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.799
And it's, I feel like grown a ton in just the last year.
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:35.200
It's grown a ton, which has made, you know, the scale has created opportunities to apply data to that so that you can get a scalable audience with your exact consumer.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:43.759
Now that might take the form of people that are looking to put a roof on their house, or people who are looking to replace windows.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.000
So we can apply those targets.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.920
And those are just the audience segments.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:24:01.359
So you could say, hey, I want to be in just Tuscaroris, and um I just want to hit people who are looking to replace windows, and they also had their home built before 1990.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:03.440
And that could be a target audience.
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.559
And you know we could find that audience, and we could find scale there too, and that's the big thing.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:13.839
And then once we start delivering ads to those people, we can see how they behave.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:20.559
Now, you know, one thing I've always told you and and all of our other agencies is we don't believe in single source attribution.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:30.480
But what we can say is I delivered a commercial to this household, and in the home services side, they may or may not have gone to the website.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:41.119
But another thing that's evolved is our your clients can then give us the physical addresses and of what have sold, or even if they want to just measure the leads that came in.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:47.839
Because home services, the nice thing about them is they're gonna have the physical address of their client.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:54.640
We can then convert those physical addresses to IP addresses and see if we delivered a commercial to that IP address.
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.359
So now we have two places to go.
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:13.039
We can say, hey, this is the creative performance based on website performance, and this is the creative performance based on, you know, people who actually made a who who converted, who actually bought a Windows or a roof from you.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:21.440
And what's been really interesting about having those two different forms of attribution is sometimes they don't align.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:30.799
Meaning, a creative might have done better on website, but did poor on actually converting to a sale, and vice versa.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:38.720
And so we have to wrestle with that as well and say, hey, in most cases, we're gonna put sales before website performance.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.160
We we wrestle with the same thing in all areas of marketing.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.519
We want to compare what's happening, not just look at our numbers.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.960
We want to compare what's happening with them in real life and then say, okay, was this working?
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.680
Was it not working?
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:50.799
And what needs tweaked?
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.279
Maybe maybe the targeting needs tweaked just a little bit.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:00.240
If you have a low quality, maybe they're a commercial with great views and website traffic, but low sales conversion, then there's a disconnect.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:01.119
There's a disconnect.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:06.000
So how do we refine the targeting to actually find the person who really is intending?
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:18.319
I know a couple of years ago, if we added too many layers in, you used to be like, okay, we only we want zip code, we want household income, and we want gender or age, but we get much past that and we're really refining too much.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.119
But I feel like with the scale increasing, we have the ability to now add in more layers.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:23.759
Is that accurate?
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.119
We can add in more layers as long as there's scale foundation.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:34.000
I mean, being, you know, my background is more digital, even though I've been in the TV space for about eight years now.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:39.680
I am more of a digital person, so I do tend to want to add more targeting.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.279
You do have to be careful of that.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.200
Because you don't want the audience to be too small.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:49.920
If you get too small, and then you might also be taking somebody who's low funnel to out of the funnel.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:52.559
Like they are so low, they've already made their purchase.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:55.519
And that's stuff that we've had to think about too.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:02.640
If there's more data about a low funnel customer, chances are they've made their decision.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:15.359
So we're trying to find that sweet spot of someone who has entered that lower funnel, who is in the decision-making process still, and are still looking at other places to go to make their purchase.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.519
So we want to be in that sweet spot.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:24.480
So when you add too many layers, sometimes you just take yourself out of that customer's journey altogether because they're out of the funnel already.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:24.720
Yeah.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.720
But also, too, it's economies of scale.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.880
Like you still need a big sample size.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:34.640
As as efficient as we can make this media, we still need that sample size.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:42.640
I think a good conversion rate is, you know, let's just call it 0.1%, which may not sound that great, but I think that's good.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:51.759
To get to that 0.1%, you still need scale, or you're you're not going to have enough inventory to actually make the conversion.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:28:02.160
So a lot of our clients, um, you know, we love the streaming product because it's kind of a blend between the branding campaign and a digital campaign that can be measured.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:16.960
Branding um is a great investment in the long-term longevity of a business, but that is something intangible to build, and a lot of times it just feels so expensive and unmeasurable, which is where your broadcast really comes into play as a partnership.
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:17.279
Yeah.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:31.839
But we have had um, we've had a number of clients that we've worked with you on, and the thing that they really like is that we're able to, you know, place that pixel, track what is working, what's not working while still building the brand presence.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.440
What we will tell people is we almost always see an increase in traffic.
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.920
Um, even with the streaming campaign.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.160
Yeah.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:44.720
I think we have had some examples where we've gotten too refined on the targeting, and like what you were talking about being too much at the end of the funnel.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:44.960
Yeah.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.720
Maybe we kind of miss the opportunity.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:53.839
So there's there's got to be some tweaking where you can kind of find that sweet spot where you're at every stage of the buyer journey.
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:57.839
And we also see a big difference depending on what the client has done.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.799
You know, somebody who has laid the groundwork.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:10.240
You might take two roofing companies as an example, and the one has invested in yard signs and some magazine or paper advertising and really getting their name out there.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:11.200
Build a brand.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.279
They slow and steady, low and slow.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:15.440
That's why I like to say though over a long period of time.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:20.079
And then you have somebody else who's very similar in size but has no brand presence really.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.079
They've done it a different way.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:34.079
And then you take both of them, and what I think that this is true, whether you start with streaming or with like a paid Google campaign, we see better success with the one who has done the low and slow method, has really invested in the brand.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.559
And that's always the testament to how branding works.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:52.880
Like you have to step out and trust a little bit that um, like you said, that's a low conversion percentage, but overall you have to look at other numbers, and that's where I think you and us as partners to these businesses can help say this is what these are the numbers you should pay attention to.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:56.400
We're always willing to tweak and optimize and make sure things are working better.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.920
Are we targeting the right person?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:05.599
But sometimes you have to be okay with just driving traffic, driving awareness and trusting that eventually you're gonna get that sale, the conversion.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.160
Yeah.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:13.519
Most of our clients they come to us or we, you know, start that conversation and we need to prove ourselves quickly.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:22.400
And so we are gonna do a highly targeted campaign, and we will try to build as many leads as possible to prove ourselves.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.319
But our goal is the same as your goal.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.799
Like, we want that brand conversation.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.799
Well, you want to work with somebody for the long run.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.519
You don't want clients in and out and in and out, and we don't either.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.400
It's too much work.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.359
It's too much work.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.920
To build those campaigns, to build the energy.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.119
And I always say it'd be easier to like let's start with something small.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:44.160
If I know that that's something we can build rather than like, I'll try to sell you the biggest package there is.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.160
I where where are you the most comfortable?
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:50.079
Well, and the nice thing about attribution is it is attribution.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.640
We can say, like, and it's closed loop.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.599
We can say that someone, if it's just website, we can say someone saw a commercial, then they went to a website.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.920
If it's actual conversion, we can say someone was delivered a commercial and then they actually made a purchase.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.759
That's nice from an attribution level.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:08.160
That makes the client feel good, that makes us feel good.
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:12.240
But also it adds another layer of conversation to have with the client.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:18.880
We can then say, Hey, I noticed this zip code way outperform this zip code.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:23.200
Can we shift money from the bad zip code into the good, fruitful zip code?
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.319
And that's when a client feels part of the conversation.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.759
They feel like they're proactively managing their campaign.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.759
And that's where we've seen the most success.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:38.640
Because eventually what happens is the ROI is good enough to say, hey, I want to grow this campaign.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.079
And that could mean I want to grow it geographically, or it could mean, hey, let's add another target.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:50.480
And that way we have two targets and we can compare them against each other, just like we're comparing geographies against each other.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:02.480
And so, yes, it is great for attribution, but I gotta tell you, like the attribution that we are using now, it's been so helpful to optimize campaigns, and it's only getting stronger with AI's help.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.720
So that's that's really interesting.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.039
I was gonna ask how AI is impacting your world.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:16.319
So you're you utilizing that to kind of interpret the data and help you see like what are the patterns here and what do we need to lean into to optimize or change a campaign.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:20.400
So with our biggest clients, it's been the most helpful.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.119
And I'll tell you why.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.240
Because you get the most data.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.599
They're spending the most money.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.160
It's not a lot of data.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:25.200
Get the most data.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.880
And it's it's funny too.
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:35.920
Um, I mean, you know me, and you know, our team with Mary Alice, we're not necessarily revenue motivated, we're performance motivated.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:42.880
And if it took 3K to get the best out of your campaign, we would just that's the easiest sale ever.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.599
We would just go do that over and over and over again.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:50.160
But our clients that get the best results are the clients that are heavily invested.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:57.759
And as you invest, you also get more of these attribution software companies that we can add into the fold.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:07.599
And so we had a client who is a performance auto parts client, and they were spending enough to get a brand live study.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.079
So we we we performed a brand live study for them.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:17.279
We gave them website measurement, this which is most of our clients get that, and then we got the conversion as well.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:24.319
So we can show you, you know, not only the people that see the commercial and go to the website, but the see the commercial and then make a purchase.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.119
And so we have these three different data points.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.880
So it's too much data, too much data to interpret.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.880
I mean, we even break these things out in Excel, and it's just like I don't know how to connect them out.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.319
I'll start blending.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.519
They're just blending together.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:45.359
And so you dump those things into your favorite, you know, AI engine, whether it be ChatGBT or whatever, Claude.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.839
And you can say, like, hey, connect the dots for me.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.640
Like the actually the command that I give is what do you what consistencies do you see?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.440
And it'll give you performance consistencies.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.119
And you have to, and one thing I will say about AI, double check it.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.480
Like you have to.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.799
It's not to the point, it's not foolproof.
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.119
But give me the consistencies.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:12.880
That's a pretty th easy thing for AI to identify, both on the positive side and the negative side.
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.800
And so we were making optimizations just on that basis.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:41.519
And when you're using a long-term um attribution software like brand lift, where you're actually getting to see where you're making it a brand impact versus you know a lower funnel impact with a sales conversion or a website conversion, is gonna tell some interesting stories and it's gonna give you a good strategy of like, this is where you need to put your dollars if you want a lead or a sale.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:51.920
This is a better place to put your dollars for the longer term cycle where you're actually investing into when people think of X, Y, and Z, they're gonna think of your brand.
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:56.639
A brand lift study, because I've talked, I've worked with a few vendors, I don't know that they're all created equal.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:58.079
So explain what that looks like exactly.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:04.800
So typically how we do a brand lift study is and we we partner with a company that does this.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:18.239
And so what they will do is they will take our IP address delivery and they will send out um questionnaires and surveys to those same IP addresses.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:32.960
And there's a level of statistical significance that we need to reach, meaning we got to make sure that the people who saw the commercial filled out surveys, a certain percentage of that uh market filled out surveys so that we can say we have some semblance of statistical significance.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:39.599
But if we start to see consistencies, where if, you know, medical is an easy one to talk about too.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.119
When you think of hospitals, what brand do you think of?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:50.559
And we can give that assisted question where we actually give multiple choice, and even more impactful, we can give that unassisted.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:58.800
So if people just fill in the blanks, if you have people start filling in the blanks on your brand within your segment, you've won.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.119
That's the brand recall you're looking out there.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840
And that's what ever honestly, every c company wants to know that.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.119
Yeah, the problem is to get that from you, they have to spend a lot of money.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.960
Yeah, spend a lot of money.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:18.239
And so, so we have so just so you know, and just so your clients and and viewers know, not every client's gonna be spending that much money.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.519
So we do a microcosm of that with a lot of our clients.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.360
A lot of your clients, we do that with.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.280
And so what we're looking at attribution, but we're also asking for feedback.
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:28.719
Like, what's going on?
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:40.000
Because I can give you the best website data ever, but if you're not making conversions in store, or if you're not selling roofs, if you're not selling windows, then it's all for not.
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:46.800
And that's what soured a lot of people on marketing is like, you show me all these metrics, but they don't mean anything to me.
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.679
So we're more interested in ROAS, that return on ad spend.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:00.559
We're more interested in having that conversation because that conversation will actually lead to a better relationship for us.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:02.559
I I love those conversations too.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:07.199
Unfortunately, I still have a significant amount of clients that are barely tracking anything at all, let alone.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.159
I know.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.480
I know they know how much money they're spending on marketing, but they don't even they're not tracking their client, their sales wins.
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:24.079
There's so it's very interesting to talk about AI and all of these technologies in a world where you're like, okay, clients, like 50% of you, I got to get you into 2026.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.719
Come on.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:25.360
I know.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.360
And and and you're talking to someone who's in the TV business.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:36.079
So a lot of like 50% of our clients are traditional clients that have neither never touched digital media ever.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:38.639
And so we have to have these conversations.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:50.559
But it always comes back to just marketing in general, which is if I see a brand in a positive light for long enough, then I'm going to think of that brand.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.159
And so it's all about for me, I always think about attention arbitrage.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.320
Where are the eyeballs at?
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:08.480
And right now it's it's digitally focused, whether it's television with streaming television, whether it's like people's Google still has a stronghold on search engines.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:12.639
So you're still needed to be do have a heavy pay-per-click budget.
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:19.599
You're still needed to have a good SEO strategy if you want to build that brand and answer your consumers' questions.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:21.599
And so it's all strategy.
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:22.719
And so you have to dive in.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:40.159
And AI hasn't figured out a way to to at least I haven't figured out a way for AI to really, you know, take on those man hours of putting in the effort to get that data and then getting and putting the effort into interpreting the data to create some actional um results.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:45.840
How do you see clients partnering to transition a little bit to your other world?
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.079
So you guys still do broadcast television, it is a part of the market of what you sell.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:50.320
Yeah.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.679
How do you see streaming and broadcast work together in the best way?
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:11.199
Well, I have seen uh we have clients, especially Cleveland clients, that if they are targeting the Cleveland DMA from a streaming perspective, we they have to be buying television because television is still the most affordable and efficient way to buy media.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.000
It still is, especially if you're buying an entire DMA.
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:21.280
Now, a client on the fringes, it's not, it's not as efficient for you because you're just not going to have that DMA appeal.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:36.079
Um, but for our clients that are just doing television, they know they know already because all you have to do, and you've been to the lunch and learns that I've been a part of, is just ask people how they consume media and what they're watching.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.840
And the majority of what they're watching is streaming television.
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:50.639
So it's not like you want to base, and a lot of we as marketers make this mistake is we base, you know, what we're doing marketing-wise on who we are as a consumer.
00:39:50.960 --> 00:40:02.559
But the when you have a room full of people and everybody's watching different shows on different streaming providers, that paints a picture of like I need to be a little bit everywhere if I want to have any impact at all.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.239
So, you know, pre-COVID, it was a trickier conversation, but now it's it's a lot easier.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:09.360
It's so fragmented.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.280
I mean, it's fragmented on our end too.
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:21.599
And really, even like, you know, we s we do offer heavy or we can handle any level of paid advertising campaign and PPC SEO, but SEO is fragmented.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.239
Now people might go directly to TikTok and search for a service versus just going directly to Google.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:39.199
And so you can be missing huge, huge segments if you're not on all of those channels, which is very overwhelming if you're a business owner and you're just like, Well, how do I do all of the things and all of the places and get the visibility?
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:45.280
I'm curious if you have any statistics around how many times a message has to be seen now.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:55.199
You know, you hear little tricklings, it used to be a lot less, and now with attention spans getting shorter, in order for somebody to have that brand recall and remember you, how many times would they need to see you?
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.599
Well, you know, especially you, we talk about frequency all the time.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:00.159
Yes.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:07.679
And when we're going through the planning stages, I know, especially for some of your clients, you're trying to hit a sweet spot of frequency.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:12.239
On the connected TV side, I say three to five all day long.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:12.960
Per month.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:13.519
Per month.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:15.280
See your name three to five times per month.
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:16.800
But that's on a television.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.199
Okay.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.039
Now, if I was to start delivering display ads three, five times a day.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:21.599
Yes.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:23.840
Because you are on your phone all day.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:24.719
You're distracted.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.119
I'm on my phone an embarrassing amount of time.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.679
I see it every week on Sundays when I when I get the update.
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.119
And it really is a shameful experience.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.559
But it also reminds me that attention arbitrage, people are looking down their phones all the time.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:45.199
Which is also why on all of our pitches to you guys, we include that OTT retargeting.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:46.400
It's my favorite part.
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:46.880
Yeah.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:53.920
So that I can deliver a commercial and then the next day, and for 30 days after, I'm gonna be sending them display ads.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:42:00.159
But on a television, we still need to think about frequency in terms of a TV like viewing audience.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:08.400
Because everybody also has that, you know, show on Hulu that they watch where they see the same ad 20 times in an episode.
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:10.880
So you have to reel that in because people get annoyed too.
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:12.480
Oh, yeah, that is really frustrating.
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:17.519
And then also just one more thing to think about consideration is what's your brand.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:26.400
Now, that example you used earlier about the two roofers, the one that's invested in their brand may not need to have a higher frequency as the one that hasn't.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:38.400
Meaning, the person who has done billboards, the person who has done mailers, TV, radio, et cetera, where they have some semblance of establishment in a market, they can get away with a three times frequency.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:43.039
Whereas Well, and what's tricky with that person is that's actually not measurable hardly at all.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:52.880
So they were like throwing things out there, really having no idea whether it was working, but truly the test to show that it was working is when you turn on digital and you see a better result.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:53.280
Yeah.
00:42:53.440 --> 00:43:00.320
So that's kind of like the indication of oh, what I was doing all of those years kind of worked, you know, it worked to get me where I'm at.
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.199
And we, you know, love all things digital.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:09.119
I love to be able to track and get data, but we recommend off digital things as well because they work the best together.
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.400
Yeah, broadcast and streaming works the best together, but it also works really well if you're running social media.
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:14.800
Yeah.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.639
If you're if you have a great website, because you can't have a bad website if you're gonna be running.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:25.360
Why invest and all of that money into TV if you're just gonna send them somewhere that it looks awful and is a bad experience?
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.440
And I think you can be strategic now too.
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:33.760
Like that client was throwing stuff against the wall, and I get that, and you could have done that years ago.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.840
Now you can do that with a little bit more direction.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:46.960
So instead of you can do all these traditional things, but instead of just throwing it at the wall, maybe find out who that audience is on the traditional side too.
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:59.760
And that way we can say, Hey, I can deliver a mailer to this house, and then I can deliver a CTV commercial to that house, and then I can deliver a message to all of their phones in that house, and now.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.840
I've got a really good omni-channel approach, a good frequency.
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:11.920
I'm not being overtly annoying yet because I'm not over-delivering on one medium, but that household now knows me.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:17.679
And then if you can execute on the SEO side where you can answer people's questions.
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:18.239
Yep.
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:22.239
And, you know, and not sell them something, and I think that's a win.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:23.840
So but it's tricky and it's tough.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:25.599
And that's why agencies like you exist.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:26.239
Yes.
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:32.639
And then the key is when they actually call you to give them a great experience and follow through on everything you're we're promising on the marketing side.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:33.199
Yeah.
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.280
Well, AI hasn't replaced operations.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:48.400
I wish in some cases it has, but we still have a lot of QA that quality assurance sometimes still becomes an issue where we have to make sure that we cannot sit it and forget it and rely on AI yet.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:55.519
I mean, I almost I can't wait till I replace some of those jobs, but it's just that still exists.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:57.679
We have to operate a campaign.
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.800
So Jordan, I really appreciated the conversation today.
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.800
Just in final thought, if you could leave a business owner listening to this and is like, wait a minute, what just happened?
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.840
Because we just talked a lot of very technical digital jargon.
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:20.639
I know what's one thought or a takeaway that you would give a business who's considering, you know, trying to figure out how to implement streaming or broadcast into the marketing strategy, give us a takeaway.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:29.679
So I think you have to be really honest with yourself and ask yourself, do I need to build brand right now or do I need to drive traffic right now?
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:36.639
And if the answer is I need to make the cash register ring right now, then it is what it is.
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:42.239
And then you're going to do more of a search, digitally focused campaign.
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:59.760
But if you're that client that says, all right, we have some consistent workflow, I need to really invest in my brand, then it's okay not to get that immediate, you know, shot in the arm that lead-generated platforms give you.
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:15.119
Because what that's gonna pay is dividends and time when your brand is known throughout your communities that you serve, and that you're actually being an asset to that community where they're gonna come to you instead of you having to constantly find customers.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.840
So that's the difference between those two entities.
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:22.639
Um brand has always been a bad word when you talk to clients.
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:33.599
And and the great thing about digital products, especially us having digital products, like that low funnel streaming and geofencing and app targeting and all those things, is we can say we can do both.
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:40.719
But once again, we recommend that bigger overall branding strategy with some lead gen as well.
00:46:41.039 --> 00:47:01.199
But think about what you need right now because chances are you don't want to dive full body in, you just need to do what's gonna get you to the next month or next quarter or next year and invest there because it is super fragmented and marketing, you can throw a ton of money away at it.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.679
So try to be really smart about those dollars.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.039
I would say I would encourage a business owners who are listening who to consider the investment in brand because we often feel like it's a really big price tag and they don't know what the payoff is going to be.
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:20.480
But like you said, it does pay off in dividends in the long run and you're setting yourself up for success.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:32.400
And if you're not out there watching your competition, yeah, like you know, there there is a we live in a world of abundance, there's enough business out there, but you can be left behind if you're not proactively doing the things to move ahead.
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:40.960
And that's where investing in brand early can help set you up for you know, we're in some pretty competitive markets, specifically in the service-based industries.
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:46.480
And so if you're not doing it, your competitors are probably going to be, and you need to be thinking about that.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:47.440
So yeah.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:50.800
Um well, we have worked together for a long time.
00:47:50.880 --> 00:48:01.840
So if somebody has questions, we're gonna include your contact information in the notes here, but you can also just um reach out to us if you'd like to get connected with Jordan and the WKYC team.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:11.519
If you're interested in learning more about streaming, broadcasts, any digital product that will help um expand your brand, then uh reach out to us.
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:17.599
You can reach out to Fierce Crave Solutions, you can reach out to us on the Blaze Network, or you can reach out to Jordan directly.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:18.079
Awesome.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:18.960
Thanks, Lindsay.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.719
Thanks for tuning in to Torch Talk.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:26.480
If today's story sparked something for you, share it with a colleague, community leader, or future change maker.
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:31.679
Until next time, stay inspired, stay intentional, and keep your fire burning.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.439
Go often tracking everything.
00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:03.839
Go ahead and already have the already know.
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:06.879
I know it's always, I always say the same thing.
00:00:06.959 --> 00:00:12.880
It's always very troubling as a citizen, but then as a marketer, I want that animation.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.960
My husband, like, set up his new life on the new ways.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:31.359
Welcome back to Torch Talk, the show where we spotlight bold leaders growing businesses and communities with grit and purpose.
00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:37.600
Today's guest is Jordan Wright, digital and local sales manager at WKYC TV and Techna Media.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:50.880
In this Torch Talk episode, we'll explore how to approach data-driven marketing and take a deeper dive into how businesses can drive traffic, build stronger brands, and solve real challenges using digital media strategies.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:52.479
Welcome to Torch Talk, Jordan.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.439
Thanks, Lindsay.
00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:53.920
Thanks for having me.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:56.320
That's awesome.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:01.280
We finally get to dive into all the things that you guys do, which is very dynamic.
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:03.200
We've worked together for quite some time.
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:04.480
A while now, yeah.
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.040
I was trying to remember, I don't actually have any number.
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:10.879
I mean, it's been at least five, six years because I've been here eight years.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:13.439
We have had, well, Fierce will be five years this year.
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:14.000
Oh, okay.
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:21.599
So it'll be I mean, for the entire time of Fierce, but I think you know, I've worked with WKYC even prior to that year.
00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.439
So a really great relationship, and we appreciate the partnership with you guys.
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.280
So why don't we tell everybody a little bit of what it is that you do?
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:31.439
Because they don't know what they're listening to right now.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:41.599
So WKYC is the NBC affiliate in Cleveland, but we also do streaming television through a company called Premion, which Tegna also owns.
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:47.439
And that is really where we've seen the most growth in the television space.
00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:57.599
And you know, like when I first started eight years ago, the streaming space, you had to convince people to think about advertising within the streaming space.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:04.400
And I remember being at Launch and Learns, and people would say, but what about live sports?
00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.000
What about news?
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:15.840
And admittedly, even at that time as a consumer, I had Netflix, Amazon Prime, HBO, but none of them were ad supported.
00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.439
So even as a consumer, it was like, well, it's out there.
00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.479
And there was, there was a lot of inventory.
00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:28.639
There was Sling Television, there was network apps, um, but the consumption wasn't huge.
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:38.719
Like, so for example, if I was talking to a car dealership, for instance, I could maybe do auto intenders in the entire DMA to have scale.
00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:47.120
And now, if you fast forward to present day in 2026, if you did auto intenders in the entire DMA, it'd be a lot of money.
00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:48.240
It would be a ton of money.
00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:53.520
And unless you were spending$100,000 a month, it would be a raindrop in the ocean.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.560
So what's happened is consumption's gone through the roof.
00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.080
No one is asking anymore about can you watch sports on Twitter?
00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:03.599
It's actually probably the opposite.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.639
Most of the time you have to convince people to go on broadcast television.
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:07.919
Like, why would I do that?
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.680
You're exactly right.
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:11.520
It is, it's crazy.
00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.719
The problems that we had, you know, eight years ago are not the problems we have now.
00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:17.919
We have different problems.
00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.120
And it's almost the space is just too crazy.
00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:26.800
And as a consumer, you know, like I have to Google where can I watch the calves tonight?
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:28.159
And that's the problem now.
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:35.520
It really is kind of crazy, especially if you're I mean, even with TV shows, I'll get advertisements for TV shows, but you have no idea where to go watch them.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:35.919
Yeah.
00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.400
And so yeah, you have to like look that up.
00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:47.439
Scrolling the guide is no longer a thing or just knowing where to go, like for my Browns or Cavs or what Indians, Guardians, whatever it is.
00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:51.360
Like you just it could be on Amazon one night and it could be on your channel the next.
00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:52.159
Well, exactly.
00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.159
This space is so fragmented, yeah.
00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.840
Which is is a it's a challenge, and it's a challenge as an NBC affiliate as well.
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:08.560
But also on the other side of that, it's a huge opportunity because we have this thing called Premion, which is a streaming aggregator where we can reach all of these things.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.960
Which what so that for people that are listening, what does a streaming aggregator mean?
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.319
So basically, you know, first just to back up a little bit, Premion started in 2016.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:29.040
And like, so even take yourself back to 2016, 10 years ago, there was network apps, sling television, like streaming space wasn't this Goliath that it is right now.
00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:40.560
But what a streaming aggregator does does and did back then is we went to each one of those locations, networks and different partnerships, and bought that inventory.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:45.600
And we bought it directly from each one of those providers, and we touted that as well.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:58.879
I mean, we would go out onto the street and say, Hey, we have direct inventory, meaning our ad stack aligns right with their ad stack, we're server-to-server integrated, and that's how we get our inventory.
00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:04.160
And we also are buying just the inventory at the very top of that waterfall.
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:13.680
So we So that means higher quality, higher quality, higher viewership rate, meaning I always take it back to the a consumer perspective.
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:21.040
If I'm starting a program, I'm way more likely to watch the commercials at the beginning of that program versus the end of that program.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:22.639
Because that's when people bail off.
00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:23.920
So we were touting that.
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.399
We were touting high video completion rates.
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.920
Beyond that, we didn't have much analytics back then.
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:38.000
And so now in 2026, what it means to be an aggregator is there's no longer this server-to-server integration.
00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:45.839
It is all through demand-side platforms, which also has made the space way more commoditized.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:53.040
I mean, I'm sure all of your partners sell streaming television now and have access to you know some sort of demand-side platform.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:59.439
They do, but they're not all at the same quality of what you guys sell, which is why honestly we love the premium product as well.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:06.720
So from a quality standpoint, from a targeting standpoint, there's a number of reasons why we would choose Premion.
00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:20.160
And I have tested uh multiple other local um partners to you in Cleveland or competitors to you in Cleveland, but also just um because uh you know you can go buy direct on Hulu yourself if you want.
00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.000
You can buy directly through Spectrum.
00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:28.959
Like there's different um streaming vendors out there that you can try, but we get the best results when we work with you.
00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:30.079
Well, I appreciate it.
00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:31.360
I'm that's just the truth.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:33.279
I'm not trying to sell sell what you're doing.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:38.160
It's no, I know you want to you of all people would not buy us.
00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.959
You would send us a Christmas card still, but you want to buy us.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:58.160
Um and so, yeah, so we take that world of streaming and try to package it up for our clients and our agencies and their clients so that we're reaching geographically where they want to hit, and then demographically, and then audience segments that they want to hit.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:03.519
And then also to your point, our why buy is it's safe, fraud-free, brand safe inventory.
00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:11.120
And we have layers within the technology that does that as well, that identifies fraud because once again, digital medium, there is a lot of fraud.
00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:13.040
What is like that's a question.
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:18.000
I will say that when I'm talking to people that you're fraud safe, but give us examples of what that looks like.
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:34.240
So an example could be that you have all of these supply side platforms, so SSD or SSPs, and what they are trying to do is buy inventory so that they can resell at a higher rate.
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:50.319
So especially if you ask your system, your DSP to say, I want the cheapest inventory as as possible so that I can resell that for and get a higher margin, then I'm just looking for that rate.
00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:57.199
And a company could mimic, like instead of a Netflix, you could change a letter and it'd be say Netflix.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.240
And I could put imaginary inventory on that, and it's fraudulent.
00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:11.759
It's in in and I sell that to the supply side dashboard, then it goes to a demand side uh platform, and then the commercial goes to nowhere.
00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:15.920
And they get fake analytics saying that it was reported and everything, and they really don't know.
00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:16.879
Impressions delivered.
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:19.680
Their commercial was never actually seen by real people.
00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:32.480
And that's the challenge within the streaming space in general, is because on traditional television, I can tell you if you're advertising in the 7P news, I can tell you what time to turn TV on, um, and you're gonna see your commercial.
00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:32.720
Yeah.
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.679
With with digital advertising and streaming, you don't do that.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.279
If you're not in the right demographic and you're not targeting yourself, yeah.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:41.440
Geo gra geographic area, you might not see the commercial.
00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:42.960
You might not see the spot.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:50.480
So there is this level of trust, which is also another thing that we tout, and we don't take it lightly that our clients trust us.
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:58.240
So we push our company like to make sure that the inventory that we're providing is not the fraudulent inventory.
00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:02.639
And so we have these certifications from a company that takes it very seriously.
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:11.039
It's called TAG is the acronym, Trustworthy Accountability Group, who monitors all our inventory to make sure that there's none of that fraudulent inventory.
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:17.519
But fraud could also take take the place of, you know, I'm gonna deliver on the Fireplace app during Christmas time.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:26.080
It's not necessarily necessarily a quality commercial, but it's gonna be incredibly high video completion rates because people put that fireplace app and they just keep it up.
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.960
Yeah, yeah, they're not watching it or pet TV.
00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:36.320
Yeah, like if my dog sees a commercial, like it's a hundred percent video completion rate, but it's just not a quality impression.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:48.639
So fraudulent inventory runs the gambit and it's changed and took taken many forms throughout the years, but it's something that all companies should be aware of, and it's it's a problem.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:10:06.799
But I think with artificial intelligence, we're gonna minimize and see minimal supply side dashboards or supply side platforms and more just direct to network inventory, which is where the where everything started, but it'll be more streamlined.
00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:12.399
It won't be so much um like you where you have to plug into that actual ad stack.
00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:25.120
So if I am a service contractor and maybe I have bought directly through one of the platforms that we're talking about, how could I, what could I look at maybe in my reporting or what are the indicators that that could possibly be fraud?
00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:29.840
Every you know, streaming company has a dashboard where they're gonna show delivery.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:36.399
And at this point, it should be table stakes that you're gonna show every impression to every network and provider.
00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.399
So take a look at those providers.
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:43.360
Make sure that one, they're spelled correctly, make sure that there's no NAs.
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:51.200
Um, because honestly, sometimes that does pop up where we have to go back and identify what that actual network or provider is.
00:10:51.519 --> 00:11:03.200
Because, you know, it could be something as simple as, hey, we didn't know where to to attribute that impression, whether it would be like Hulu or a network on Hulu, or it could be fraudulent inventory.
00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:10.480
If they can't find an answer to that, where it's like, no, we just don't know what that inventory provider is, that's a bad sign.
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:10.799
Okay.
00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:12.080
And we do see that.
00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:18.320
Um, and we see that within competitive reports, where we'll ask the question, hey, figure out where this inventory is coming from.
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:24.639
And in the streaming space, there is a there's a ton, hundreds of legitimate, legitimate streaming providers.
00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:30.879
And half of them we haven't heard the the names of then get desensitized to, oh yeah, that's just some random.
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:31.840
It's just something.
00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:39.679
It's a free one out there that somebody has, but if the commercial is being seen, then you just kind of get desensitized to trusting that it's being delivered.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:40.399
Exactly.
00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:44.320
So, like, have an AI engine be your friend, have Google be your friend.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:51.600
Just if I don't know a provider, and this still happens to me, where it'll pop up in the top 10, and I'll be like, I don't know what that provider is.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:56.559
And so I'll have to Google it and learn a little bit about the company, but take that time to do that.
00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:04.639
Also, um, you probably have different points of attribution that that streaming company is utilizing.
00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:09.519
Match up your website attribution delivery to your actual delivery.
00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:22.320
Because chances are those are two different companies that are measuring your website visits from people who saw the commercial and then went to the website to the actual company that is the demand side platform that distributing your ads.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.519
Those should match up.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:35.840
And that's what I like to point out to my clients is say, hey, look at the top 10 of your delivery on our just normal premium report, and then look at the top 10 in website delivery, and it should be the exact same.
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:37.440
And it's two different companies.
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:44.799
So, but in order to measure the website delivery or attribution, they would have had to place a pixel or code on your website in the first place.
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.480
Yeah, so as of right now, yes.
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.159
And would they do the fraud companies even try to do that?
00:12:50.320 --> 00:13:00.320
So that could be a trigger to me, even if you have bought from a platform and they haven't even requested to put a pixel on your website, then that could be a trigger to they're not even trying to track it.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:10.799
That's a great point, and that's actually a good segue, not only to fraudulent traffic, but also companies mixing in different types of ads within their streaming campaigns.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:23.679
So especially if a company is buying directly through like a YouTube TV, they're using a platform called DV360, which is fine, and that's a great platform, but they could be delivering pay-per-click ads through that.
00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:31.600
They could be delivering YouTube through that, they could be um delivering display through that, which could give you a click-through rate.
00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:36.879
Well, with connected TV, we shouldn't see click-through rates, at least with our inventory.
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:43.279
Our inventory is mostly a connected television, meaning it is on a TV-like program.
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.120
It's nothing that you can click.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.039
So that checks the box of getting fraudulent clicks.
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.519
We're just tracking through IP address.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:57.600
So if I deliver a commercial to your house and you have an internet connection, you have an IP address.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:03.600
And then if that same IP address then goes to my website, I match those two things up.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.679
And that's where we get a website transition.
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.559
And that's not fraudulent because it's just it's literally just matching IP to IP.
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.200
Let's talk about IP addresses while we're here.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:13.679
Yep.
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:24.240
So there has been a lot of movement in the marketing world in the last five years of owning fierce when it comes to privacy, security, uh tracking on Google ads and Facebook ads, it's wild.
00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:31.519
I mean, I'm looking at we were we did 2025 annual performance reviews, and I had some clients have a 30% increase in unknown traffic.
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:31.840
Yeah.
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.879
Because people are opting out, even on my team.
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:44.480
I'm not calling anybody out, yeah, but I'm on a team of marketers and I probably got 50% of people who are wanting to opt out of being tracked because they don't want they don't want the ads themselves.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.960
So we understand the world you're all living in.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:48.559
It's Vale's very big brother.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:49.759
But it's different.
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:50.080
Yeah.
00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.919
How you track and identify people is a little bit different because you're you're going directly through IP addresses.
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:57.919
So talk us, talk to us about that.
00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:05.679
Yeah, so if you are a household that has an internet connection, has Wi-Fi, then you have an IP address.
00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:11.200
Now, you could have several different IP addresses through the lifespan of that Wi-Fi.
00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:18.159
But what we're trying to do is match that IP address with an IP address that we're actually delivering to.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:28.159
So even if the IP address changes, if we deliver to an IP address and that same IP address then comes to the website, we know that that match happens.
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.519
Now, tracking has become tricky.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:39.759
Uh, when we first started, actually, we could track the devices within those IP addresses, and we could, I don't know if you remember this.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:44.080
You used to be able to say there's how many TVs and phones within.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:44.559
Yes.
00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.879
So then you knew if the IP address was watching on a TV or an iPad or a phone.
00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:49.120
Yeah.
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:50.799
And really a combination of all of those.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:52.559
I mean, and it was crazy.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:59.919
And and also if one of those devices then went to my brick and mortar location, I could track that as well.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:01.279
And then all of the things.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.000
Yeah, but I have clients who really wish we could still do that.
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:05.200
Hey, me too.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:05.679
Yeah.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:14.639
But rules and regulations, and you know, with all of the opt-ins, we the sample size wasn't big enough to track.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.960
And so there still is some assumptive data out there that you can get.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:30.080
Um, we used to go through a company called Foursquare, but we just decided to get out of that space because, you know, it was like one in 20 homes that were actually where we could actually track.
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:36.320
And it just wasn't enough data to paint a picture that we felt was closed loop attribution.
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:47.679
So how how do you track or identify, let's say, and I'm gonna get to the targeting in a second, but let's say you're looking for a 45-year-old female with who lives in Wayne County.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.600
Yeah, I'm not 45 yet, but that's within the age demographic.
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.320
Um how does how do you find that person through the IP?
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.159
Like, what is do you know what I'm saying?
00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:59.440
Like, how do you find the people?
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.919
Yeah, so it so there's a mix of first party and third party data.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.680
So the third party data I'm gonna get from census information.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:08.160
Okay.
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:15.759
So you've identified through census information that your age, gender, people in the household.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.960
So then we can say, oh, they have kids in the household.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:36.000
So then maybe I can a college can hit me up at some point and say, Hey, I know you have kids in the household when you're thinking about universities and college plannings, or maybe a financial company can hit you up and try to get you on to start, you know, put money away for your kids' college fund.
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:41.359
So we have that information just through third-party data, and that's really easy.
00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:42.960
And financial data is the same way.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:50.000
You know, we could be going through Fidelity, we could be going through a lot of different companies that have data on those individual households.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:55.839
And so just remember that you give up so much information about yourself when you buy a home.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:56.319
Yeah.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.240
So opt into tracking everybody.
00:17:58.559 --> 00:17:58.880
Go ahead.
00:17:58.960 --> 00:17:59.839
They already have the information.
00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:00.960
They already know.
00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.440
I know it's always I always say the same thing.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:09.359
It's always very troubling as a citizen, but then as a marketer, I want that information.
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:13.599
My husband like set up his new iPhone and he clicked and no, and I was like, what are you doing?
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:15.200
That is my livelihood right now.
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:16.160
Turn it back on.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.400
Yeah, it's it's getting as close to the target as possible.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:37.839
And that's where we can say that we can help a client build brand with television type advertising, or it is television advertising, but you can also help drive traffic because we are trying to get as close to the consumer, our client's consumer as possible.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:46.960
And so that's where we kind of blur the lines between building brand at a higher level versus actually driving traffic and getting that lower funnel customer.
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.759
So, what's the first party data look like then?
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.400
That's just another layer added on top of that.
00:18:52.720 --> 00:19:01.839
Yeah, so first party, first party data could be just website data that you know you have search history, that you're also, let's just stay on the college motif.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.559
I'm I'm also searching universities.
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:16.480
And that could also fall in line with, oh, this person is they have college age or high school age kids in the household and they're looking for universities online, and that's where that first party data is.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:23.279
And then you use all of that information to match an IP address to the physical address so that you know you're delivering to a TV.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:23.599
Yeah.
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:30.559
Most of the time, what percentage of streaming commercials would you say are delivered on a TV like device?
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:38.640
So with our inventory, yes, and I just looked at this the other day, it's it's about 98% actually show up on a connected television.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.680
Now, with that being said, we have clients that say, I want a hundred percent connected TV.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.640
So we'll do that, and that's really easy for us.
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:52.640
But you know, I mean, like 2% of the time, like if I'm traveling, I'm watching television on a laptop or a phone.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:53.200
Same.
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.400
Um, so like there is that opportunity to catch that consumer.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.039
So we have clients that still want that little fragmentation, but for the most part, our why buy is always connected television.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:13.359
Now, the universe, I mean, a lot of people, you know, I just had a client ask me the other day, because they're buying live sports from us, like how much of this inventory?
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.799
I'm worried that this inventory is gonna be mobile or desktop inventory.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:21.359
And with our live sports product, 100% of our inventory is CTV.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.680
It's actually you don't even have the option.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:32.319
But you can buy CTV, or I'm sorry, you can buy streaming on mobile, you can buy streaming on desktop.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:33.839
It is more affordable too.
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:39.119
But if you are in that situation, if you're targeting the sporting event, do you really care what device they're watching it on?
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.200
Are they more likely to skip a commercial?
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.680
And they're non-skipable, the things that we do with you.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.519
But if you're watching, I mean, my husband might be watching the bronze game on his phone because we're at a kid's event.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:50.559
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:51.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.799
Is there a difference between the two?
00:20:53.119 --> 00:21:00.640
Just the difference in if I deliver impression to you, whether that's a phone or on a television, that's one impression.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:01.599
That's it.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:10.640
But if you deliver to a TV, the statistics are that you're hitting three people instead of just one person on a phone.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.720
So there is that's especially with a sporting event that would be relevant.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.640
There's some economies of scale there.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:26.160
And then, you know, you could show up on a bar, you could show up in all these different situations where a TV's just you're gonna get more bang for the buck as far as an impression goes.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:32.480
And and honestly, that's our company, we own, you know, 64 different TV stations throughout the country.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.279
So we that TV's in our blood.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:43.680
So even though we're a you know 50% of a digital company, we're still geared more towards a TV like audience.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.319
So okay, let's talk about targeting then.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:46.720
Yeah.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:58.720
So the ability to find somebody and really find their audience and and even be able to afford to market to them through streaming television, I think that's what has opened the conversation for us with a lot of our clients.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.319
We are a geographical Geographically positioned between two big TV markets.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.279
Near fringe market.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:11.359
We a lot of our local contractors that we work with might not they don't want to work in downtown Cleveland or downtown Columbus.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:18.799
And so they st they avoided the broadcast market because why would I market to 17 counties when I can only serve the bottom four?
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.119
Yeah.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:31.680
But now they have the ability to say, Oh, I want to hit Wayne, Medina, Tusk, Holmes, whatever, whatever area it is, and their uh who the person is and follow that person around no matter what they're watching.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:32.000
Yeah.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:36.079
That's evolved a lot over the last couple of years and really opened doors.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:40.160
Um, so tell us what you see often when it comes to targeting and how you help partner.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:41.440
Because somebody might come to you.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.000
I know we go and come to you and we're like, well, this is what we think, and we kind of have to wrestle that out a little bit.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.519
We go to the drawing board a lot.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:56.000
Yeah, like I know Mary Alice and the account management team, we go back and forth quite a bit on audiences because we are trying to find that sweet spot.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:03.759
So typically, you'll say, Hey, we are targeting these geographic areas, and that might take the form of just a list of zip codes.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.160
You might want to just do, you know, county-based targeting, which is fine.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:14.480
Because, you know, like I said earlier, you know, when I first started in this business, the scale wasn't huge.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.079
And then post-COVID, scale is there's scale is never a hindrance.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.799
And it's, I feel like grown a ton in just the last year.
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:35.200
It's grown a ton, which has made, you know, the scale has created opportunities to apply data to that so that you can get a scalable audience with your exact consumer.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:43.759
Now that might take the form of people that are looking to put a roof on their house, or people who are looking to replace windows.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.000
So we can apply those targets.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.920
And those are just the audience segments.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:24:01.359
So you could say, hey, I want to be in just Tuscaroris, and um I just want to hit people who are looking to replace windows, and they also had their home built before 1990.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:03.440
And that could be a target audience.
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.559
And you know we could find that audience, and we could find scale there too, and that's the big thing.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:13.839
And then once we start delivering ads to those people, we can see how they behave.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:20.559
Now, you know, one thing I've always told you and and all of our other agencies is we don't believe in single source attribution.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:30.480
But what we can say is I delivered a commercial to this household, and in the home services side, they may or may not have gone to the website.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:41.119
But another thing that's evolved is our your clients can then give us the physical addresses and of what have sold, or even if they want to just measure the leads that came in.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:47.839
Because home services, the nice thing about them is they're gonna have the physical address of their client.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:54.640
We can then convert those physical addresses to IP addresses and see if we delivered a commercial to that IP address.
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.359
So now we have two places to go.
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:13.039
We can say, hey, this is the creative performance based on website performance, and this is the creative performance based on, you know, people who actually made a who who converted, who actually bought a Windows or a roof from you.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:21.440
And what's been really interesting about having those two different forms of attribution is sometimes they don't align.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:30.799
Meaning, a creative might have done better on website, but did poor on actually converting to a sale, and vice versa.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:38.720
And so we have to wrestle with that as well and say, hey, in most cases, we're gonna put sales before website performance.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.160
We we wrestle with the same thing in all areas of marketing.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.519
We want to compare what's happening, not just look at our numbers.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.960
We want to compare what's happening with them in real life and then say, okay, was this working?
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.680
Was it not working?
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:50.799
And what needs tweaked?
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.279
Maybe maybe the targeting needs tweaked just a little bit.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:00.240
If you have a low quality, maybe they're a commercial with great views and website traffic, but low sales conversion, then there's a disconnect.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:01.119
There's a disconnect.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:06.000
So how do we refine the targeting to actually find the person who really is intending?
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:18.319
I know a couple of years ago, if we added too many layers in, you used to be like, okay, we only we want zip code, we want household income, and we want gender or age, but we get much past that and we're really refining too much.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.119
But I feel like with the scale increasing, we have the ability to now add in more layers.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:23.759
Is that accurate?
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.119
We can add in more layers as long as there's scale foundation.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:34.000
I mean, being, you know, my background is more digital, even though I've been in the TV space for about eight years now.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:39.680
I am more of a digital person, so I do tend to want to add more targeting.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.279
You do have to be careful of that.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.200
Because you don't want the audience to be too small.
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:49.920
If you get too small, and then you might also be taking somebody who's low funnel to out of the funnel.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:52.559
Like they are so low, they've already made their purchase.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:55.519
And that's stuff that we've had to think about too.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:02.640
If there's more data about a low funnel customer, chances are they've made their decision.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:15.359
So we're trying to find that sweet spot of someone who has entered that lower funnel, who is in the decision-making process still, and are still looking at other places to go to make their purchase.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.519
So we want to be in that sweet spot.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:24.480
So when you add too many layers, sometimes you just take yourself out of that customer's journey altogether because they're out of the funnel already.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:24.720
Yeah.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.720
But also, too, it's economies of scale.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.880
Like you still need a big sample size.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:34.640
As as efficient as we can make this media, we still need that sample size.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:42.640
I think a good conversion rate is, you know, let's just call it 0.1%, which may not sound that great, but I think that's good.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:51.759
To get to that 0.1%, you still need scale, or you're you're not going to have enough inventory to actually make the conversion.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:28:02.160
So a lot of our clients, um, you know, we love the streaming product because it's kind of a blend between the branding campaign and a digital campaign that can be measured.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:16.960
Branding um is a great investment in the long-term longevity of a business, but that is something intangible to build, and a lot of times it just feels so expensive and unmeasurable, which is where your broadcast really comes into play as a partnership.
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:17.279
Yeah.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:31.839
But we have had um, we've had a number of clients that we've worked with you on, and the thing that they really like is that we're able to, you know, place that pixel, track what is working, what's not working while still building the brand presence.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.440
What we will tell people is we almost always see an increase in traffic.
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.920
Um, even with the streaming campaign.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.160
Yeah.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:44.720
I think we have had some examples where we've gotten too refined on the targeting, and like what you were talking about being too much at the end of the funnel.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:44.960
Yeah.
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.720
Maybe we kind of miss the opportunity.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:53.839
So there's there's got to be some tweaking where you can kind of find that sweet spot where you're at every stage of the buyer journey.
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:57.839
And we also see a big difference depending on what the client has done.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.799
You know, somebody who has laid the groundwork.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:10.240
You might take two roofing companies as an example, and the one has invested in yard signs and some magazine or paper advertising and really getting their name out there.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:11.200
Build a brand.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.279
They slow and steady, low and slow.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:15.440
That's why I like to say though over a long period of time.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:20.079
And then you have somebody else who's very similar in size but has no brand presence really.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.079
They've done it a different way.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:34.079
And then you take both of them, and what I think that this is true, whether you start with streaming or with like a paid Google campaign, we see better success with the one who has done the low and slow method, has really invested in the brand.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.559
And that's always the testament to how branding works.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:52.880
Like you have to step out and trust a little bit that um, like you said, that's a low conversion percentage, but overall you have to look at other numbers, and that's where I think you and us as partners to these businesses can help say this is what these are the numbers you should pay attention to.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:56.400
We're always willing to tweak and optimize and make sure things are working better.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.920
Are we targeting the right person?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:05.599
But sometimes you have to be okay with just driving traffic, driving awareness and trusting that eventually you're gonna get that sale, the conversion.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.160
Yeah.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:13.519
Most of our clients they come to us or we, you know, start that conversation and we need to prove ourselves quickly.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:22.400
And so we are gonna do a highly targeted campaign, and we will try to build as many leads as possible to prove ourselves.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.319
But our goal is the same as your goal.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.799
Like, we want that brand conversation.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.799
Well, you want to work with somebody for the long run.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.519
You don't want clients in and out and in and out, and we don't either.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.400
It's too much work.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.359
It's too much work.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.920
To build those campaigns, to build the energy.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.119
And I always say it'd be easier to like let's start with something small.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:44.160
If I know that that's something we can build rather than like, I'll try to sell you the biggest package there is.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.160
I where where are you the most comfortable?
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:50.079
Well, and the nice thing about attribution is it is attribution.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.640
We can say, like, and it's closed loop.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.599
We can say that someone, if it's just website, we can say someone saw a commercial, then they went to a website.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.920
If it's actual conversion, we can say someone was delivered a commercial and then they actually made a purchase.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.759
That's nice from an attribution level.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:08.160
That makes the client feel good, that makes us feel good.
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:12.240
But also it adds another layer of conversation to have with the client.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:18.880
We can then say, Hey, I noticed this zip code way outperform this zip code.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:23.200
Can we shift money from the bad zip code into the good, fruitful zip code?
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.319
And that's when a client feels part of the conversation.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.759
They feel like they're proactively managing their campaign.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.759
And that's where we've seen the most success.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:38.640
Because eventually what happens is the ROI is good enough to say, hey, I want to grow this campaign.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.079
And that could mean I want to grow it geographically, or it could mean, hey, let's add another target.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:50.480
And that way we have two targets and we can compare them against each other, just like we're comparing geographies against each other.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:02.480
And so, yes, it is great for attribution, but I gotta tell you, like the attribution that we are using now, it's been so helpful to optimize campaigns, and it's only getting stronger with AI's help.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.720
So that's that's really interesting.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.039
I was gonna ask how AI is impacting your world.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:16.319
So you're you utilizing that to kind of interpret the data and help you see like what are the patterns here and what do we need to lean into to optimize or change a campaign.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:20.400
So with our biggest clients, it's been the most helpful.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.119
And I'll tell you why.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.240
Because you get the most data.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.599
They're spending the most money.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.160
It's not a lot of data.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:25.200
Get the most data.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.880
And it's it's funny too.
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:35.920
Um, I mean, you know me, and you know, our team with Mary Alice, we're not necessarily revenue motivated, we're performance motivated.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:42.880
And if it took 3K to get the best out of your campaign, we would just that's the easiest sale ever.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.599
We would just go do that over and over and over again.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:50.160
But our clients that get the best results are the clients that are heavily invested.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:57.759
And as you invest, you also get more of these attribution software companies that we can add into the fold.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:07.599
And so we had a client who is a performance auto parts client, and they were spending enough to get a brand live study.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.079
So we we we performed a brand live study for them.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:17.279
We gave them website measurement, this which is most of our clients get that, and then we got the conversion as well.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:24.319
So we can show you, you know, not only the people that see the commercial and go to the website, but the see the commercial and then make a purchase.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.119
And so we have these three different data points.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.880
So it's too much data, too much data to interpret.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.880
I mean, we even break these things out in Excel, and it's just like I don't know how to connect them out.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.319
I'll start blending.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.519
They're just blending together.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:45.359
And so you dump those things into your favorite, you know, AI engine, whether it be ChatGBT or whatever, Claude.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.839
And you can say, like, hey, connect the dots for me.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.640
Like the actually the command that I give is what do you what consistencies do you see?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.440
And it'll give you performance consistencies.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.119
And you have to, and one thing I will say about AI, double check it.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.480
Like you have to.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.799
It's not to the point, it's not foolproof.
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.119
But give me the consistencies.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:12.880
That's a pretty th easy thing for AI to identify, both on the positive side and the negative side.
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.800
And so we were making optimizations just on that basis.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:41.519
And when you're using a long-term um attribution software like brand lift, where you're actually getting to see where you're making it a brand impact versus you know a lower funnel impact with a sales conversion or a website conversion, is gonna tell some interesting stories and it's gonna give you a good strategy of like, this is where you need to put your dollars if you want a lead or a sale.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:51.920
This is a better place to put your dollars for the longer term cycle where you're actually investing into when people think of X, Y, and Z, they're gonna think of your brand.
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:56.639
A brand lift study, because I've talked, I've worked with a few vendors, I don't know that they're all created equal.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:58.079
So explain what that looks like exactly.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:04.800
So typically how we do a brand lift study is and we we partner with a company that does this.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:18.239
And so what they will do is they will take our IP address delivery and they will send out um questionnaires and surveys to those same IP addresses.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:32.960
And there's a level of statistical significance that we need to reach, meaning we got to make sure that the people who saw the commercial filled out surveys, a certain percentage of that uh market filled out surveys so that we can say we have some semblance of statistical significance.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:39.599
But if we start to see consistencies, where if, you know, medical is an easy one to talk about too.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.119
When you think of hospitals, what brand do you think of?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:50.559
And we can give that assisted question where we actually give multiple choice, and even more impactful, we can give that unassisted.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:58.800
So if people just fill in the blanks, if you have people start filling in the blanks on your brand within your segment, you've won.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.119
That's the brand recall you're looking out there.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840
And that's what ever honestly, every c company wants to know that.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.119
Yeah, the problem is to get that from you, they have to spend a lot of money.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.960
Yeah, spend a lot of money.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:18.239
And so, so we have so just so you know, and just so your clients and and viewers know, not every client's gonna be spending that much money.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.519
So we do a microcosm of that with a lot of our clients.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.360
A lot of your clients, we do that with.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.280
And so what we're looking at attribution, but we're also asking for feedback.
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:28.719
Like, what's going on?
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:40.000
Because I can give you the best website data ever, but if you're not making conversions in store, or if you're not selling roofs, if you're not selling windows, then it's all for not.
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:46.800
And that's what soured a lot of people on marketing is like, you show me all these metrics, but they don't mean anything to me.
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.679
So we're more interested in ROAS, that return on ad spend.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:00.559
We're more interested in having that conversation because that conversation will actually lead to a better relationship for us.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:02.559
I I love those conversations too.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:07.199
Unfortunately, I still have a significant amount of clients that are barely tracking anything at all, let alone.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.159
I know.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.480
I know they know how much money they're spending on marketing, but they don't even they're not tracking their client, their sales wins.
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:24.079
There's so it's very interesting to talk about AI and all of these technologies in a world where you're like, okay, clients, like 50% of you, I got to get you into 2026.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.719
Come on.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:25.360
I know.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.360
And and and you're talking to someone who's in the TV business.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:36.079
So a lot of like 50% of our clients are traditional clients that have neither never touched digital media ever.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:38.639
And so we have to have these conversations.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:50.559
But it always comes back to just marketing in general, which is if I see a brand in a positive light for long enough, then I'm going to think of that brand.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.159
And so it's all about for me, I always think about attention arbitrage.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.320
Where are the eyeballs at?
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:08.480
And right now it's it's digitally focused, whether it's television with streaming television, whether it's like people's Google still has a stronghold on search engines.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:12.639
So you're still needed to be do have a heavy pay-per-click budget.
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:19.599
You're still needed to have a good SEO strategy if you want to build that brand and answer your consumers' questions.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:21.599
And so it's all strategy.
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:22.719
And so you have to dive in.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:40.159
And AI hasn't figured out a way to to at least I haven't figured out a way for AI to really, you know, take on those man hours of putting in the effort to get that data and then getting and putting the effort into interpreting the data to create some actional um results.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:45.840
How do you see clients partnering to transition a little bit to your other world?
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.079
So you guys still do broadcast television, it is a part of the market of what you sell.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:50.320
Yeah.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.679
How do you see streaming and broadcast work together in the best way?
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:11.199
Well, I have seen uh we have clients, especially Cleveland clients, that if they are targeting the Cleveland DMA from a streaming perspective, we they have to be buying television because television is still the most affordable and efficient way to buy media.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.000
It still is, especially if you're buying an entire DMA.
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:21.280
Now, a client on the fringes, it's not, it's not as efficient for you because you're just not going to have that DMA appeal.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:36.079
Um, but for our clients that are just doing television, they know they know already because all you have to do, and you've been to the lunch and learns that I've been a part of, is just ask people how they consume media and what they're watching.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.840
And the majority of what they're watching is streaming television.
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:50.639
So it's not like you want to base, and a lot of we as marketers make this mistake is we base, you know, what we're doing marketing-wise on who we are as a consumer.
00:39:50.960 --> 00:40:02.559
But the when you have a room full of people and everybody's watching different shows on different streaming providers, that paints a picture of like I need to be a little bit everywhere if I want to have any impact at all.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.239
So, you know, pre-COVID, it was a trickier conversation, but now it's it's a lot easier.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:09.360
It's so fragmented.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.280
I mean, it's fragmented on our end too.
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:21.599
And really, even like, you know, we s we do offer heavy or we can handle any level of paid advertising campaign and PPC SEO, but SEO is fragmented.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.239
Now people might go directly to TikTok and search for a service versus just going directly to Google.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:39.199
And so you can be missing huge, huge segments if you're not on all of those channels, which is very overwhelming if you're a business owner and you're just like, Well, how do I do all of the things and all of the places and get the visibility?
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:45.280
I'm curious if you have any statistics around how many times a message has to be seen now.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:55.199
You know, you hear little tricklings, it used to be a lot less, and now with attention spans getting shorter, in order for somebody to have that brand recall and remember you, how many times would they need to see you?
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.599
Well, you know, especially you, we talk about frequency all the time.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:00.159
Yes.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:07.679
And when we're going through the planning stages, I know, especially for some of your clients, you're trying to hit a sweet spot of frequency.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:12.239
On the connected TV side, I say three to five all day long.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:12.960
Per month.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:13.519
Per month.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:15.280
See your name three to five times per month.
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:16.800
But that's on a television.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.199
Okay.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.039
Now, if I was to start delivering display ads three, five times a day.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:21.599
Yes.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:23.840
Because you are on your phone all day.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:24.719
You're distracted.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.119
I'm on my phone an embarrassing amount of time.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.679
I see it every week on Sundays when I when I get the update.
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.119
And it really is a shameful experience.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.559
But it also reminds me that attention arbitrage, people are looking down their phones all the time.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:45.199
Which is also why on all of our pitches to you guys, we include that OTT retargeting.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:46.400
It's my favorite part.
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:46.880
Yeah.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:53.920
So that I can deliver a commercial and then the next day, and for 30 days after, I'm gonna be sending them display ads.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:42:00.159
But on a television, we still need to think about frequency in terms of a TV like viewing audience.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:08.400
Because everybody also has that, you know, show on Hulu that they watch where they see the same ad 20 times in an episode.
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:10.880
So you have to reel that in because people get annoyed too.
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:12.480
Oh, yeah, that is really frustrating.
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:17.519
And then also just one more thing to think about consideration is what's your brand.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:26.400
Now, that example you used earlier about the two roofers, the one that's invested in their brand may not need to have a higher frequency as the one that hasn't.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:38.400
Meaning, the person who has done billboards, the person who has done mailers, TV, radio, et cetera, where they have some semblance of establishment in a market, they can get away with a three times frequency.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:43.039
Whereas Well, and what's tricky with that person is that's actually not measurable hardly at all.
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:52.880
So they were like throwing things out there, really having no idea whether it was working, but truly the test to show that it was working is when you turn on digital and you see a better result.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:53.280
Yeah.
00:42:53.440 --> 00:43:00.320
So that's kind of like the indication of oh, what I was doing all of those years kind of worked, you know, it worked to get me where I'm at.
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.199
And we, you know, love all things digital.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:09.119
I love to be able to track and get data, but we recommend off digital things as well because they work the best together.
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.400
Yeah, broadcast and streaming works the best together, but it also works really well if you're running social media.
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:14.800
Yeah.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.639
If you're if you have a great website, because you can't have a bad website if you're gonna be running.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:25.360
Why invest and all of that money into TV if you're just gonna send them somewhere that it looks awful and is a bad experience?
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.440
And I think you can be strategic now too.
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:33.760
Like that client was throwing stuff against the wall, and I get that, and you could have done that years ago.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.840
Now you can do that with a little bit more direction.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:46.960
So instead of you can do all these traditional things, but instead of just throwing it at the wall, maybe find out who that audience is on the traditional side too.
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:59.760
And that way we can say, Hey, I can deliver a mailer to this house, and then I can deliver a CTV commercial to that house, and then I can deliver a message to all of their phones in that house, and now.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.840
I've got a really good omni-channel approach, a good frequency.
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:11.920
I'm not being overtly annoying yet because I'm not over-delivering on one medium, but that household now knows me.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:17.679
And then if you can execute on the SEO side where you can answer people's questions.
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:18.239
Yep.
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:22.239
And, you know, and not sell them something, and I think that's a win.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:23.840
So but it's tricky and it's tough.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:25.599
And that's why agencies like you exist.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:26.239
Yes.
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:32.639
And then the key is when they actually call you to give them a great experience and follow through on everything you're we're promising on the marketing side.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:33.199
Yeah.
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.280
Well, AI hasn't replaced operations.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:48.400
I wish in some cases it has, but we still have a lot of QA that quality assurance sometimes still becomes an issue where we have to make sure that we cannot sit it and forget it and rely on AI yet.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:55.519
I mean, I almost I can't wait till I replace some of those jobs, but it's just that still exists.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:57.679
We have to operate a campaign.
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.800
So Jordan, I really appreciated the conversation today.
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.800
Just in final thought, if you could leave a business owner listening to this and is like, wait a minute, what just happened?
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.840
Because we just talked a lot of very technical digital jargon.
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:20.639
I know what's one thought or a takeaway that you would give a business who's considering, you know, trying to figure out how to implement streaming or broadcast into the marketing strategy, give us a takeaway.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:29.679
So I think you have to be really honest with yourself and ask yourself, do I need to build brand right now or do I need to drive traffic right now?
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:36.639
And if the answer is I need to make the cash register ring right now, then it is what it is.
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:42.239
And then you're going to do more of a search, digitally focused campaign.
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:59.760
But if you're that client that says, all right, we have some consistent workflow, I need to really invest in my brand, then it's okay not to get that immediate, you know, shot in the arm that lead-generated platforms give you.
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:15.119
Because what that's gonna pay is dividends and time when your brand is known throughout your communities that you serve, and that you're actually being an asset to that community where they're gonna come to you instead of you having to constantly find customers.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.840
So that's the difference between those two entities.
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:22.639
Um brand has always been a bad word when you talk to clients.
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:33.599
And and the great thing about digital products, especially us having digital products, like that low funnel streaming and geofencing and app targeting and all those things, is we can say we can do both.
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:40.719
But once again, we recommend that bigger overall branding strategy with some lead gen as well.
00:46:41.039 --> 00:47:01.199
But think about what you need right now because chances are you don't want to dive full body in, you just need to do what's gonna get you to the next month or next quarter or next year and invest there because it is super fragmented and marketing, you can throw a ton of money away at it.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.679
So try to be really smart about those dollars.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.039
I would say I would encourage a business owners who are listening who to consider the investment in brand because we often feel like it's a really big price tag and they don't know what the payoff is going to be.
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:20.480
But like you said, it does pay off in dividends in the long run and you're setting yourself up for success.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:32.400
And if you're not out there watching your competition, yeah, like you know, there there is a we live in a world of abundance, there's enough business out there, but you can be left behind if you're not proactively doing the things to move ahead.
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:40.960
And that's where investing in brand early can help set you up for you know, we're in some pretty competitive markets, specifically in the service-based industries.
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:46.480
And so if you're not doing it, your competitors are probably going to be, and you need to be thinking about that.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:47.440
So yeah.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:50.800
Um well, we have worked together for a long time.
00:47:50.880 --> 00:48:01.840
So if somebody has questions, we're gonna include your contact information in the notes here, but you can also just um reach out to us if you'd like to get connected with Jordan and the WKYC team.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:11.519
If you're interested in learning more about streaming, broadcasts, any digital product that will help um expand your brand, then uh reach out to us.
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:17.599
You can reach out to Fierce Crave Solutions, you can reach out to us on the Blaze Network, or you can reach out to Jordan directly.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:18.079
Awesome.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:18.960
Thanks, Lindsay.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.719
Thanks for tuning in to Torch Talk.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:26.480
If today's story sparked something for you, share it with a colleague, community leader, or future change maker.
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:31.679
Until next time, stay inspired, stay intentional, and keep your fire burning.
