Ep 188: Why Recovery Cannot Keep Up with Modern Life with Marie Sloane

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Hey there, listener.
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Welcome back.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Guster Mall, and um this is Things You Learn Therapy, and I am glad you're here and I am glad to be recording again.
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I actually took a little bit of a hiatus from uh recording over the summer and I'm back in the studio, which actually isn't a studio.
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It feels like I'm supposed to say studio, but you know, I don't actually have a studio at my house or anywhere else.
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But anyway, I love to make words matter for good.
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I focus on behavior and communication strategies and my clinical work and my speaking and my training.
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And um I love interviewing amazing guests like the guest who has come back again.
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I am just so honored always to get to share space with you, Marie.
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And I'm glad you decided to say yes to coming again today.
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And um I look forward to, well, you know, whatever kind of shenanigans you and I can get into together as we talk about this.
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I think it's actually a topic that, you know, you and I are seeing a lot clinically, but I think uh for me, it's something that I continue to battle personally and professionally.
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And I just think it's a topic that a lot of people are going to relate to.
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So before we get there.
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Hi, Marie.
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Hi, thank you.
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Welcome back.
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I'm glad you're here always.
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Thank you.
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Tell us something about you and your life and tell us all about the work you do, and then tell us something fun about you.
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My name is Marie Sloane.
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I am a uh licensed professional counselor.
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I'm licensed in four different states, primarily Arizona.
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That's where I'm based.
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Um, but I'm also licensed in Texas, Montana, and Minnesota.
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I primarily focus on my practice, my clinical practice primarily focuses on trauma.
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And because of that, I the effects of trauma.
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So all the things that come with that.
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I feel like it's been like forever ago and yesterday since I've talked to you.
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Um, so fun fact about me is I chopped all my hair off since the last time I talked to you, which your listeners can't tell, but it was fun and it's been a journey.
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And not that I had super duper long hair to begin with, it was at least shoulder length, but now it's like a pixie, and I'm rocking this like old lady vibe right now with like this platinum blonde white color.
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So it's amazing.
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I mean, you had you had great hair before, but then, you know, when I first, you know, you first turn your camera on, it was like, hey, yeah, I love this really bold color.
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I love the bold cut.
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It's just great.
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Something fun about me.
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And um, yeah, I feel like I said, like it's been, it feels like it was forever ago, and it kind of was, but then it also doesn't feel like very much time has passed at all.
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So, you know, I wonder if this whole time warp issue, right?
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And I think this is gonna tie back to what we're gonna talk about today.
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It does feel like why does that happen?
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I need to probably look up the science, see if there's a science around this.
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It's like, why does it happen that it feels like things are so long ago, but they happened just not that long ago, or vice versa, right?
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This like time warp.
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And I wonder if this is directly connected to this idea that we're talking about today around too many things burnout, emotional, physical exhaustion, plus self-care, plus all the things.
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Like, yeah, I don't know.
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What's your thought on any of those things, like the time warp issue or where we're going from here?
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I think a lot of it's I tell my clients this a lot, and I thought I feel this personally.
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And yes, there probably is some neuroscience behind like why as we especially get older, I know especially as we get older, time seems to go faster because we have so many more things in our brains and yeah, all of that.
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Um, but I think we just live in a world that is moving so quickly.
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Yeah.
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Um, and we're constantly being bombarded with so many different things that when I look back on my childhood, and I'm gonna make a comparison to my son's childhood, because my son is now about to be a teenager.
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He's like 12 and almost, you know, he's about to be 13.
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So I look at like, I think back to my life when I was 13.
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And even though things were happening, and you know, back then it was like AOL and AIM and little chat rooms, and you know, things were happening and stuff.
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But I we didn't have the internet in my house when I was 13.
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I don't think we had the internet in my house till I was like 15.
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And now he's got it on his, you know, he has group chats and he has, you know, everything just moves so much faster.
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I feel like we live in this world where there with technology, everything and there's content and there's this and there's, and it's just, I feel like everything is moving so much quicker that it feels like time is moving at the same space, but our lives and everything happening in them is moving so much faster that it's hard to keep up.
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And maybe that's what causes that dissonance.
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I'm not sure.
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That's my guess.
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It makes sense to me, right?
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And again, you know, not all science makes sense, but it does make sense to me that because technology allows us and in some ways requires us to move faster, there's something to do every minute of the day.
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Right.
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I think back to my childhood too, right?
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Where it was like sometimes we would just like sit outside and like look at the trees and stuff, you know.
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I'm like, yeah, there's not really those moments in a lot of our like the the this generation where they're just kind of doing nothing.
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Yes, they have a real problem with boredom.
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And I know that yeah um, and I it's so funny now because when when my son's like, I'm bored, I'm like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.
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I can't remember the last time I was bored.
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Like that sounds like rest, you know?
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Yeah, boredom.
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What is what?
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But I do I and I know that there are people out there that are doing research about like how in in our developmental stages we're supposed to learn how to cope with boredom.
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Like that's when we're supposed to tap into our creative things, and you know, that's when the brain can, you know, but if we're just constantly never allowing ourselves to be have a space that's quiet uh and restful or not being stimulated in some way, I think I'm really kind of anxious as a parent and just as a human to see how it affects the future generations.
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Cause I do worry about my son every now and then.
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I'm like, we need to put the phone down, we need to turn off YouTube, we need to do these things and like just sit and talk to me while we eat dinner, you know?
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No phones at dinner.
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Just tell me about your day.
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But it's it's so hard, it's almost become this little appendage that's attached to everybody, like their phone and this, and therefore this access to constant stimulation.
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And if there isn't that, then there's it's problematic, which is it's kind of sad in a way.
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Because yeah, we had to make our own fun or figure it out, or just you know, we like you said, we'd sit under a tree.
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Like that, that was great.
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I took a trip this summer where one of the goals was just to sit under trees without my phone.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I feel like it's just everything is moving so quickly.
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And maybe that's why it feels that way.
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You know, whether it is or it isn't, I I definitely think a lot of folks relate to this idea of things just moving quickly, the struggle with boredom, I think is something that even grown-ups and even me, you know, I'll be there sitting for a minute and I'm like, I probably should be doing something.
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You know, that should work.
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We could talk about that all day as therapists, right?
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But it's also just so hard to break.
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I mean, I think there is, you know, in therapy, obviously we're always focused on awareness, knowledge, and skills, right?
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So we're trying to bring new awareness to people so that they can then have new knowledge about something and then apply a different thing to do.
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And so we have to develop this awareness around our difficulty with moving too fast or moving at this certain pace, right?
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And before we started recording, you had um this uh kind of story you were sharing about uh someone who had shared something with you about kind of the speed of how we're operating and how hard it is to recover.
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And so can you share that story a little bit?
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Yes, and I thought it was it was one of those moments where when he said it, I was like, I'm totally gonna seal that.
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And I told him, and I have, and I've said it to other clients, and I'm gonna say it to everybody now.
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He had decided to take a sabbatical from work because he said that the speed of recovery is just slower than the speed of life.
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And because he had been, and this is somebody I've been working with for several years, and it's been a constant loop of even when he applies the things, even when he does the coping skills, even when this or that, like he just could not catch up in terms of recovery, recovering from burnout.
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And legitimately, he works in a in a in an industry where that is super common.
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But I feel like right now, I can't think of an industry where burnout isn't super common.
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Yeah.
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Um, but you know, working in like in the tech world, um, you know, programming and you know, startup environments, like those are very high pressure environments.
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And so I understand like there there are certain places where that's gonna be a lot more present, and there's no way to avoid it except if you in this case, like he his answer was I've tried everything else, I need to leave for a little while.
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Because again, like his his speed of recovery just couldn't keep up with the pace that was being asked of him in his workplace.
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And it's it's our workplaces, it's our it's our home lives, it's everything everywhere all at once.
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You know, it's just so many, there's pressure from coming from everywhere, I feel.
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And so I think it is hard for people to find that balance.
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And I like what you said earlier, where you know, ultimately the end, the end goal is like we create awareness, we learn new things, we learn new skills, we create this, and then there's the behavior piece, and it's that's the part where most people fall off or struggle that I see the most is like we can know the things all day long.
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Like it doesn't take much for us to do some psychoeducation and some, you know, like this is, you know, and like help people connect the dots, and they're like, oh, okay, so now I understand why it's hard for me to sit still, or now I understand that this is a trauma response, or but then actually changing the behavior around that is where a lot of the hangups occur.
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Or even if, like, let's say they took five minutes to slow down and I can just be still for a minute and I'm gonna practice this coping skill.
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A lot of the times I have people report that it's like you said, I should be doing something else right now.
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Yep.
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I should be doing this, I could be doing that, I could be doing this.
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And I'm like, yes, there's always something that can be done.
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Like in this world, there's always laundry, there's always something that can be cleaned, there's always something that can be like that that is never ending, and we need to just let that go and exist and let ourselves still take that five minutes, take that 10 minutes, actually engage in the self-care activity, whatever that we have determined that needs to be for you without the guilt, because if you're doing it with that, I'm sure I should be doing something else, or I shouldn't be doing this, or this is a waste of time, or whatever, then it's not going to be effective anyway.
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Because you're not actually changing the behavior, really.
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You're not really.
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I mean, and you know, you said a few things that I want to come back to because I think it's so powerful.
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I mean, I just love that quote that you you're a very wise person shared with you because it's it's so true.
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And I just in the last couple of weeks, I've done a couple of different talks on self-care.
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And that's kind of the take-home message, right?
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That that well, there's a few parts of a take-home message, is that if you're spending, you know, eight or 10 or 12 hours a day going at the speed of a hundred.
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And I'm just putting numbers out, not because they're true, but just for the sake of having a discussion.
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But you're going at that pace for a huge portion of your day.
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And and I do think it comes back to stimulation, right?
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I think we are overstimulated in so many ways that we're not even aware of anymore, because it's just become like the norm to like go all the time, to have your brain stimulated all the time, to be looking at something all the time, to be taking things in all the time.
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And then you spend five minutes uh doing meditation or five minutes walking or even 60 minutes walking, the ratio is just off.
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And so then I think what happens for me, what I know happens for other people too, is that it's like, well, I don't have time to do something that's not going to be effective enough.
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Right.
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It's like going to the gym two hours a week, right?
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Twice a week because I can't fit in more than that.
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It's not giving me benefit enough.
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And so I'm just gonna do nothing, right?
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I I think there's this trap that people sometimes believe or start to just kind of like fall into because it's like, well, the 10 minutes of meditation a day is not giving me, I'm not feeling enough of the benefit.
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And it's like over time your body is gonna feel the benefit, but it's hard to stick with something to what you're saying, right?
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It's like it's not just doing it once, it's doing it over and over again when you feel like I don't have time to do this thing over and over again.
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Yeah.
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And I think it's if it the trap that it is is the all or nothing thinking.
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Yeah, exactly.
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The very black and white.
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And so I try to, I'm a metaphor person because I I love metaphors.
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Because I'm ADHD and we love that.
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And I'm I have a very visual brain.
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So if you can make things visual, like I can, you know, like conceptualize this in a certain way, like I love that.
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So I do that a lot with my clients.
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I'm always metaphorically talking.
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I talk about it as like we kind of walk around with this backpack full of little pebbles.
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Well, some might some of the some of the pebbles might be bigger than others, some of them might be full-blown bricks or rocks or whatever.
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But we walk around and we're constantly putting little pebbles in this thing.
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And even if, so I've been trying to break through when I was a newbie therapist.
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Yeah, we would try to talk about meditation every day for 15 minutes or 30 minutes or whatever, like as an ideal, or going to the gym two to three times, and you know, you can look at the science and you can do all the things.
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I have gotten to the point now in my career where I am trying to sell people on, can you do this for five minutes a day?
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Like agree to just do five minutes a day.
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And I use that metaphor of like, even if you're just taking two to three pebbles out of this backpack that you're carrying every day, that's gonna make a difference at some point.
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But just because it's not one of the big rocks, or it's not like, oh, I can set the whole backpack down.
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And you know, it's it's trying to just break through that like all or nothing.
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Like, if I can't, if I can't go to the gym for an hour and sweat it out like five days a week, then what am I even doing?
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Like you are doing something.
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It's like going for 15 minutes, even if you just walk on the treadmill, I don't care, take a walk around the thing, walk to the mailbox.
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Like, I mean, it's in Arizona, I'm in Arizona still, so walking outside is like if you walk for 10 minutes, like you will be sweating.
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So, you know, I don't really encourage people to do that, but uh whatever.
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Walk up and down your stairs for 10 minutes.
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It doesn't matter if that's what you need, if that's what we've decided.
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And then again, like deciding what self-care looks like for you, and then consistently doing that.
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And sometimes it's something bigger, like setting boundaries with people consistently, and sometimes it's something smaller, like after work, because I work from home, I need to figure out a little bit of a routine to separate my workspace from my living space.
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Because if it all runs together, then I just, you know, there's no separation.
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And I and I know that too, because I've worked from home since 2020.
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So I have to kind of do like a little closeout thing because I don't have that drive to separate me from where I work.
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Yeah.
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Um, so even if it's small things like that, and so I really get into the like little tiny fine-tuning nitty-gritty with people about like, let's let's just do this one thing for the week every day for five minutes, commit to five minutes and just tell me how you feel.
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And again, it's not gonna change your life overnight.
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But even if we're unloading three or four little pebbles every day, as long as we're not adding to it, and again, over time, it does make a difference.
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Uh rather than just being like, oh well, again, all or nothing.
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If I if I can't do it perfectly or I can't do it the way it should be done, or I want it to, then I'm not gonna do anything.
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Well, then nothing is gonna change, period.
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And one thing I want to come back to is how personal self-care really is.
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I think sometimes people think self-care is a certain thing because it's other people do self-care this way, or this person does self-care this way, or whatever it is.
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It is a very individualized thing.
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And I've started talking to people because I think I find that a lot of people have self-care and it becomes very performative.
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It's like, well, I have to go to the gym because that's what so-and-so says self-care is about, or I have to do, and then it becomes just like one more thing, and you don't actually feel better about it.
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You don't actually get any self-care benefit from it.
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I think that is another key problem with how we as kind of a whole see self-care and how it's portrayed in lots of spaces.
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It's like another thing to do.
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Exactly.
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Like another thing to do to add to the list of exactly.
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And unfortunately, I think there's a lot of like health guru type people that are out there that like, this is what perfect self-care looks like.
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You get up every morning at 5 a.m.
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and you do a cold plunge and then you drink your green drink, you know, and that who, like, I'm sorry, Mr.
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You know, I'm not gonna overgeneralize trust fund baby who like has the time to do all that.
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I'm I'm sure some people are not, but whatever.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I do tell people self-care does not look the same for everybody, and it's not meant to be a chore, and it's gonna be something different, probably for you every day.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:07.599
And that's gonna look different this week versus next week, because like, you know, sometimes like when we get sick, our self-care needs to be different than when we are healthy.
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:16.240
And when we are, you know, doing this, our self-care needs to be different than other weeks of the month.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:25.119
Like I work with a lot of female clients, and a lot of them have a certain week of the month that is very, very much a struggle for them.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.400
You know, they're just women know what I'm talking about.
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:29.039
Processes.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.519
Um, and if men don't, they should.
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:42.960
Uh and we plan around, like part of what I've encouraged them to do is like, hey, if you know that week is gonna be one of the worst weeks of the month, do not like plan for that.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:44.480
Set yourself up for success.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:58.000
Don't plan uh an extra thing or you know, say yes to uh an extra project at work or plan a birthday party or anything like during that week.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:08.720
Like there's the awareness, and now the behavior in this moment is I'm gonna be very aware that this is gonna be a week where my batteries are kind of low, and I'm just gonna prepare for that.
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:17.359
So, you know, it doesn't need to be just something else that we self-care is like something else that we need to do.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.200
Sometimes it's just like we need to not do that.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:27.839
We need to say no to things, or you know, and again, it is very different.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:34.319
I used to get very frustrated about that in grad school because nobody ever told me what self-care was.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.920
You know, in in grad school, you kind of come to these things where you know the answers.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.839
Oh, the answer to burnout is self-care, and the answer to da-da-da-da-da is self-care.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.400
And then I got out and I was like, but what is it?
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:45.519
What does that mean?
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.160
You know, and I was very frustrated with that.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.799
And then as I've, you know, again learned, I was like, oh, okay.
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:59.759
So that's it's a nebulous term that everybody needs to figure out for themselves what self care is.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:20.079
And what it sometimes it means taking on less clients, sometimes it means uh, you know, challenging certain parts of ourselves, sometimes it means just, you know, again, like having a separate uh like a little ritual that you do at the end of the day to like end your work day so that you can transition out of work mode.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:28.079
Like it can be so many different things, and it doesn't have to be the gym, it doesn't have to be massages.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.880
I there for a little while I had like bought myself a massage once a month.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:39.039
Like I joined one of those clubs, and after a few years, I was like, this really isn't helping me.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.720
Like all I do is like, I mean, I'm sure it does help.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:49.519
I'm sure it is good for my muscles and stuff, but I can stretch and I can like do that occasionally if I really want to.
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:56.559
But I I learned that the monthly massage thing was actually not really helping me all of that much.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:02.640
And so I decided that that just again, like that that was what I needed back then, but it's not what I need now.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:05.440
So now I need to figure something else out.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.519
Um, I also wasn't using them monthly.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:09.440
I'd have like five backed up, you know.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:13.440
They're like, oh, you have five, you haven't even got a massage in five months.
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:14.079
And I'm like, okay.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:16.720
Your self-care plan isn't working, Marie.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:18.000
Yeah, this isn't working.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:20.319
Something I need to find something else.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:22.559
So that's it, it is, it's a moving target.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.519
And I know that's what's hard about it, and that's what people don't like to hear.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.000
Yeah.
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:34.960
It's it self-care is balance, and balance is gonna look different day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:35.680
Yeah.
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:38.720
There couldn't be a truer sentiment, right?
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:57.039
That I think just like self-care is gonna look different for everyone, self-care is gonna look different for you depending on what season of life you're in, and not even like what season months at a time.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:06.480
I'm saying like what season you're in, like this hour of the day, yeah, versus you know, another hour of the day, or kind of week to week throughout the month.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:18.319
And so I think it's a frustrating process for some people because it would be just great, Marie, if you could just prescribe me like a ZPAC for my self-care.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.039
You know what I mean?
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.680
Like, why can't you just like go to the pharmacy?
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.000
That medicine is gonna knock out whatever's happening, you know?
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.039
It's like that's just not how self-care is.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:41.839
And I think it's a very frustrating process when people are like, I'm overwhelmed, I'm exhausted, I'm burned out, and now I have to figure out how I'm gonna feel better.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.000
And so a cup like one thing that I actually trained, um, trained, I don't know, I don't know.
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:51.680
That's probably too strong a word.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:25:05.519
Sorry, but um, so my daughter uh left for college this year and she came on to the podcast and we recorded a few episodes on kind of preparing for college and what that's gonna be about.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:10.960
And one of the things that we talked about is kind of homesickness and taking care of yourself.
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.119
And I mean, really, that's self-care.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:18.240
We didn't talk about that term, but that's at the heart of what we were saying.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:34.400
And one of the things I kind of helped her just really simply think about, and I'm saying it's simple, but it's not easy, is identifying how you feel and then figuring out what you need based on how you're feeling, right?
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:48.000
And so I think it for me, if you're having this lens, if you're like, okay, I kind of like this simple lens, if you're listening and you're like, I like this simple lens, it starts with identifying how you actually freaking feel.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.160
You know, it's like it's like, yeah, sure, you're overwhelmed, you're tired, you're exhausted.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.440
We've played that one out.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:54.480
Everybody is that.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.680
We know I'm not undermining your exhaustion, listener.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.839
I love you and your exhaustion.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.799
But if you're exhausted every day, we have to start identifying what's under that exhaustion.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:12.480
And so trying to help people develop more sophisticated emotional vocabulary.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:21.759
And, you know, the example I gave her is you know, if you are tired, then your self-care might be a nap, right?
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:32.400
But if you're saying, I'm so tired, but really what you feel is isolated, a nap is not going to be what self-care is.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:53.920
And so, you know, I think one lens that I have tried to encourage folks, both my own daughter, my own life, and you know, additional folks that I talk to is really trying to expand your emotional vocabulary and then slowing down long enough to decide what is it that I actually need because I'm feeling this way.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:55.119
So I don't know.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.319
What do you think about that, Maria?
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:20.960
Oh no, that is so relatable for me because again, like I said at the beginning, because I come from this very trauma-focused world, a lot of people, their coping skill for or their their like one of the skills that they have developed to deal with whatever traumatic situation is overfunctioning.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:32.319
They have learned to completely ignore their needs, to completely suppress their emotions, to completely just focus on others, do the things, show up, be whatever.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:43.599
And it and it was a survival thing for them at one point in time for a lot of these people, because like that was how they were raised, or that was how they grew up, or that was just how they literally survived.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:50.240
And so for so many of my clients, when I ask them, What do you need?
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.720
They're like, I don't even know how to answer that question.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:54.319
I don't even know how to find the answer.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:55.759
And I'm like, okay.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:00.079
And then I start with the basics, like, how do you feel?
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.119
I feel bad.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.640
Okay, again.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:04.720
Let's get the feelings list out again.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:09.279
Yeah, like let you know, we all have our feelings wheel somewhere.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:10.160
I have mine over here.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.160
And I'm like, I know how I feel when I'm feeling bad.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:18.000
Yeah, like bad to me means I'm overstimulated.
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:24.559
I um my ADHD is off its rocker, and I need to just slow everything down.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.079
I need to, again, reset my nervous system, whatever.
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:29.920
Like, I know what that means to me.
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.480
I try not to do the whole good versus bad because some people really struggle with joy.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.319
They don't know how to handle being calm, you know.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.480
So tell me what bad means.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:47.920
Again, like expanding that emotional vocabulary and understanding what emotion am I feeling if I'm overwhelmed.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.240
Yes, that's emotion, but that's a bit of an umbrella.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:51.680
Why are we so overwhelmed?
00:28:51.839 --> 00:29:00.079
Well, I'm pressure from here, or I'm feeling guilty about this, or I'm feeling, you know, like I'm not doing here's you know, the thing that we hear all the time.
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.960
I'm not doing enough, which to me just blows my mind because we're doing everything all the time, all at once.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.319
But for those folks that that is a trauma response, like that feels like what they should be doing.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:20.799
And if they're not doing, they're not doing way too much, then there's guilt around it.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:22.079
And then they feel bad.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:34.960
And then so to get them to to break through, I mean, it comes in layers and and like the healing process from uh, you know, and people pleasing comes into that a lot.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.759
Like it's it's a very complex process.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:42.880
Like you said, it sounds very simple when we say, like, what are you feeling and how do you need?
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:55.359
But for some people, there's all of this like complexity and layers to why it's not okay for them to have that that need or why they need to focus on somebody else's need or whatever.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:13.039
So I think it's very multidimensional, like it's a simple concept, but then in practice, it's like quantum physics, like it can be just and to be honest, even for people like you and I, right?
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:28.880
I mean, like I am not here, I try to be really honest with folks about how like I've been in the field of mental health for more than 20 years, and I still do dumb stuff.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:37.920
Like I still we all, you know, I still do things that I'm like, what in the literal edge am I doing?
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:39.359
I know better, you know.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:47.440
So I think it is something that if you are listening and you're like, yeah, I'm just terrible at this.
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.960
And I I actually thought overfunctioning was a good thing, right?
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.759
I mean, I think overfunctioning is this term, right?
00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:04.880
I'm actually I want you to unpack this a little bit because I do think folks, um, the term overfunctioning, I think, has kind of gained a little bit of momentum.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.519
I actually don't remember the origin of it, but I think I feel like it's become more popular.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.759
Megan McCutcheon was on the show.
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:18.880
Um, she has an episode on overfunctioning, and um, she kind of talks about, she talks about it a little bit too.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:24.720
But I think people hear this word overfunctioning, even if you have no idea what overfunctioning is.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:26.799
And Marie's gonna tell us a little bit about it.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.319
But even if you never heard it, you're like, why would overfunctioning not be my goal?
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:33.119
You know what I mean?
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:41.920
It's like overfunctioning feels like, yes, I'm doing better than like average if I'm overfunctioning, right?
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.799
So, like help folks understand what overfunctioning is and how it can become problematic.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.440
It's not like it's bad necessarily.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:51.279
I really want to be careful.
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.480
Yeah, I want to be careful about helping people understand how it can become problematic.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:57.119
Yes.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:06.480
So I think there's a lot of reasons that overfunctioning has become a very normalized part of society.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.920
So there's nothing wrong with being like a functional human being.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:17.839
Like we want, we have certain expectations that, like, when you get to be an adult, you know how to do this thing and you know how to do this thing, and you know how to do this thing.
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:37.200
For people, a lot of my clients, when they experienced trauma, usually at some point in their younger selves, they got put into a role that was above their pay grade for that period of their life, and they started functioning like an adult at a very young age.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:37.759
Yep.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:46.960
And then by the time they got to be an actual adult, now they're not only doing all of the regular functioning, but then they're going above and beyond.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:33:03.200
It's about having no boundaries with your time, it's about saying yes to everything, being focused on everybody else's needs, feelings, wants, desires except yourself, always putting everybody before yourself and being physically and emotionally fatigued all the time.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:08.079
Again, there's nothing wrong with being a parent who puts their child's needs before theirs.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:09.680
Like that is something that we do.
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:13.680
Obviously, we want to make sure that they're fed, and then that's my job as a parent.
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:14.720
That's yeah, right.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:20.079
But I want to distinguish the overfunctioning part is also the feeling guilt.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.960
If I try to, like if I'm thinking about myself, I'm selfish.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:31.200
If I am not willing to put everybody else in front of me, that's a bad thing.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.079
So never this focus on how am I feeling?
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:38.880
What are my needs, what are my like that feels like the a negative thing.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.160
That's when it's the overfunctioning and it's very damaging.
00:33:42.319 --> 00:34:03.839
And unfortunately, our capitalistic society, and in every, in every part of it, even in the mental health field, overfunctioning has always been like this thing that is elevated that like, look at your productivity, look at this person's dashboard, look at these da-da-da-da-da-da, look at all these billable hours that this person has done.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.519
Like, they're such a team player.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:17.920
When you when you hear, when you go to an interview and they say, like, we want somebody who can think on their feet in a fast-paced environment and be able to make independent decisions and is willing to be a team player, red flag.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.800
Don't go there.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:23.519
That means it's chaos all the time, and they're gonna want you to have poor boundaries.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:42.800
And I and I didn't know that as you know, when in my early 20s when I was looking for a job, everybody wants to be considered a team player, everybody wants to be a good employee, everybody wants to have good work ethic, but it has gotten to the point where it has escalated and escalated and escalated that now if you're not willing to answer emails at 9 p.m.
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.599
at night, like that's not being a team player.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.639
And I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:54.559
You know, and so that's where I feel like the burnout is connected to so many different things.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:35:06.239
It's connected to us on our personal levels in the way that we have, you know, for some people, it's been a trauma response that has then been commended by people like, look at her, she can do it all, or look at him.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:12.400
He's so hype, you know, there's they can they just do all the things, like they're the person that can get it done.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:18.239
And then 10 years later, they hit a wall and they're like, I can't do it anymore.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:34.000
So helping people recognize that sometimes that is a trauma response, or that is some not something that's sustainable for you long term, you know, that's that's that is all we could spend whole other it's it's its own whole episode.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:34.480
I know.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:35.760
I I'm curious.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:46.880
So one thing that, you know, I I train graduate students and we talk all the time about kind of self-care planning and creating your own self-care plan.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:57.519
And um part of that, obviously, goal setting is always a part of you know, either self-care plans or or frankly, just like any human that you're working with.
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:59.280
It's like goal settings.
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:02.000
What are we doing?
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:03.039
What are we doing?
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:12.719
One thing that I have started adding to when I'm working on goal setting with anyone is obstacle preparation.
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:24.719
So I think early on, you know, we use smart goals and you know, the whole thing is you want to make a smart, specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely, goal, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:34.559
I can't remember the author, but I had where they talked about like we need to prepare for the obstacles that are coming on day four when you don't want to meet your goal anymore.
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:56.639
When you're like, actually, you know, I laugh about like my own particular struggle with dieting or like losing weight or whatever, and that I am like just on any given moment of any given day waffling between I am on track, I am gonna lose some weight, and I can swing, Marie.
00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:03.519
If there is some cheese dip in front of me, I am swinging all the way over to be like, you know what, Marie, you only live once.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.960
So yeah, be like I mean yellow, whatever.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.199
I am so good at that, right?
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:22.400
But I'm curious how you like what's your kind of philosophy or what's your strategy when you work with clients or just even personally, when you're like trying to prepare people for when you don't actually want to do this anymore, right?
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:32.079
When you're like you're you're so burned out, or hey, we can talk about self-care till we're blue in the face, but if you're not actually gonna do it, it's not gonna be helpful.
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:40.960
And you know, we kind of started this conversation talking about that, how it's like we know what we're supposed to do, and yet we just don't always get around to doing it.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:47.599
And so do you like explicitly have those kind of conversations, or how do you have those conversations if you do?
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:48.320
I do.
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:57.679
And usually what I encourage people to do, and this is something I learned in the recovery space, because it's the same thing with sobriety, right?
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:09.679
Like, and that's why in that space, they really put a huge emphasis on community because any one of us on a given day can feel a certain way.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:20.000
But us as a collective, if we can lean on a group where one of us is having a bad day, but everybody else is strong, there is that sense of community.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:23.360
So having what I would call an accountability buddy.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:48.159
I like it, accountability is is somebody that you have given permission to be like, you know, and that's why like people do like, you know, they'll get personal trainers or they sign up for classes or, you know, so that to have that extra accountability, because that's the difference between like discipline and when we're lacking discipline, like when we're or we're lacking motivation, we need the discipline.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:53.760
And so sometimes the discipline, if we can't, if we're not very self-disciplined, which I am not, I'm way ADHD.
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:59.199
I need to rely on somebody to help keep me accountable that I've given permission.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:13.920
So when I was trying to lose weight and like get all, you know, photo ready for my wedding and stuff, I found this trainer down the street who I wasn't a huge fan of as a human, but he was a great trainer and he would text me and be like, You're coming this morning, right?
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.519
And I'm like, No, I'm kind of tired.
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:17.199
He's like, No, you're coming.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:19.840
Like you, you, you're two minutes away.
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:21.199
Get over here.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:21.599
Yeah.
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:23.119
And I needed that.
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:24.880
That was what I needed in that moment.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:33.679
And so that is something, and in the in the recovery world, they say, plan for the like when you are strong, plan for the times that you won't be.
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:34.880
Because we all won't be.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.960
We are gonna have those functions where we're not into it.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:45.599
And then an analogy I would use then too is just like if you're dieting, like set yourself up for success.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.760
A, have friends that are gonna support you.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:55.280
And like, you know, that's why in like even with the Weight Watchers apps and stuff, like they can you can do stuff with other people and check in.
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:58.000
And, you know, they used to have Weight Watchers groups back in the day.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.639
I don't agree with like the, you know, like weighing people in public.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:01.760
That's that's not okay.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.119
But it was again, it was like a community of people who were sharing a goal who wanted to support each other.
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:15.760
And I think that's one of the keys, like, because us as a as an individual human being, we are gonna have those bad days where we don't want to do things.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:24.320
But if we have other humans to help us support that we've gathered for that for that purpose, that can help us get over some of those humps.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:34.639
And then we can show up for them when they're having their weak days or, you know, their hard days, like community and having a support network is important.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.880
I I mean, I love that recommendation.
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.639
I love having an accountability.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:44.159
Um, I have I have had varying success with accountability buddies.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.199
If you're close enough to them, they're a terrible accountability.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:48.719
Yeah, I mean, they just are.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.679
I can be again, like you need somebody like that trainer.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.960
Like my friend would have been like, oh yeah, girl, like go back to the city.
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:56.159
Girl, you sleep in.
00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:57.039
Yeah.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:04.800
But that's why I will tell people like, if I need to be your accountability buddy, and like I'm not gonna be harsh with you, yeah.
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:11.440
Like, I'm not gonna be like, what, you didn't do your self-care, but I'm gonna be like, hey, let's check in.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.960
Like, how many days a week do you want to practice this thing?
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.800
Like, and uh sometimes if they didn't get it in, I'm like, okay, we're gonna do it in session then.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:31.840
So if the if the practice is we're gonna lie on the ground and elevate our feet and breathe or listen to some calming music or whatever for five minutes, we're gonna do that in session.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:32.239
Yeah.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.679
Like, and that's just, and I'll get down on the ground and do that, even though I'm virtual.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.159
I'm like, we're both just gonna do it here or you know, whatever.
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:44.719
So that's how I can be part of that support.
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.239
And also you're paying me to be here.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:51.039
So, like, you know, I'm gonna I can hold you accountable in a gentle way.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:53.679
But yeah, it it can't always be a friend.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:56.800
It can't be, it can't be a friend who's gonna let you get off.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:05.599
No, or it has to be one of those friends that you have that you know is gonna be like, girl, get up and get I am here already.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:06.400
Yeah.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:07.920
I I love that.
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.480
Okay, listen, you and I, I know you and I can keep talking, but okay, tell people how they can find you and follow you and the work you're doing.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:23.920
So uh, due to my own mental health things and whatever, I tend to avoid the social medias for yeah, my own things.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.880
So my website is the best way to get in contact with me.
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.840
It's just marisloancounseling.com.
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:34.559
You can always email me again, marie slonecounseling at gmail.com.
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.199
Phone numbers on the website if you have questions.
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:44.880
Like I had somebody reach out after our last thing and say, hey, will you send me that anxiety mini workbook that you created that has all the things in it?
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:45.519
Absolutely.
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:46.800
Send her a copy.
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:48.559
I'm fairly reachable.
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:49.360
Yeah.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:53.199
It's like if you can get to the internet, you can get to Marie.
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:55.599
You can find me, you can Google me.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:57.599
I am not on psychology today anymore, even.
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.320
Like, I was just like, nope, not even psychology today.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:01.360
I'm on LinkedIn.
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:05.119
That's my only whatever you can find me on LinkedIn.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:10.079
But uh otherwise, my website's the best way to find me, to locate me.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.039
It's great.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:17.920
Listen, I am always like, oh, there are so many additional things that I want to talk with Maria about.
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:24.239
So I am I'm glad that you and I get to connect at whatever frequency we get to connect.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:25.920
It's always a joy to have you.
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:29.119
And I look forward to whatever your hair is going to look like next time, also.
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:32.239
It'll be different.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:41.119
I mean, at this stage in the game, it's pretty much different every every couple weeks because when it's short, like you just have a lot of options.
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:41.599
Yeah.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.199
I had dinner with my dad the other day.
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:44.880
He's like, oh, we're changing it again.
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.039
And I was like, just expect that from now on.
00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:47.599
And I see it.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:49.519
Oh, who are you today?
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.199
Okay, that's great.
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:52.079
I love it.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:53.920
Well, listener, thank you for being here.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:55.280
Thank you for tuning in.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.480
And until next time, stay safe, stay well.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:00.159
Ciao, friends.