WEBVTT
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If you're not familiar with video conventions and tools, grab a video tool, grab your favorite movie, and see if you can reenact some of the scenes using the same cuts and elements that drew your attention.
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Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are or wherever you're watching from.
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My name is Matt Pierce, host of Visual Lounge.
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Today we're gonna be talking about action-first learning.
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So we're gonna get into what that is, but it's gonna be exciting and it's gonna help you to start thinking about how you can apply some things into your learning process, into your teaching process a little bit better, a little bit, you know, more approachable.
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We've got Dr.
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Carl Kopp here talking to us about that process.
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So let me go ahead and introduce him.
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Dr.
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Carl Kopp is a professor of instructional technology at Bloomsburg University and a leading expert in learning design and interactive instruction.
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He's the author of Action First Learning and Learning in 3D and speaks globally on creating meaningful engagement-driven learning experiences.
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Through his research, writing, and consulting, Dr.
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Kopp helps organizations move beyond content delivery to real-world application and impact.
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And with that said, please help me welcome Dr.
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Carl Kopp to the Visual Lounge.
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Well, uh, Carl, what I want to start off is where we always start off.
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And uh, what's one tip or visual idea about using images or videos that you would give us about using them in learning?
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So so yeah, one of the things that I think is really effective is to use it to show people's cognition or what people are thinking.
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So I always call it the reality TV show technique, but basically where they show somebody doing, you know, like Jersey Shore, they show somebody doing something like really stupid, and then they explain why they're doing it.
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But from a learning perspective, we can show somebody doing something really effective, like maybe in a sales meeting, bringing up maybe a product feature functionality, and then cutting to this video insert of them explaining, well, the reason why I use this approach was because of this.
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And I think that's a really great approach to grab people's attention and to help make the unseeable, you know, the thinking process more seeable and more tangible.
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Well, I I I love that as an approach because you're right, there's things that we say and or show there are these good steps, but the reasons behind it, or maybe the thought process that was happening, because someone might have a really good thought process, it just maybe it, but it was a bad decision, right?
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Uh and so it's yeah, I I so I love that as an approach.
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Yeah, or or the or they may do something that looks like super simple and super easy, and then you're like, oh, well, that's simple, I could do that.
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And you're like, oh no, I I I can't do that because I didn't think about this or think about that.
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It's kind of there's an old joke, I think, somewhere where you know this machine's not working, and they call this guy, comes in and he looks at the machine for 15 minutes and he knocks on the machine and it starts right back up.
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And the guy goes, send me an invoice, he sends an invoice for$20,000.
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And guys like, what do you mean,$20,000?
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I want an itemized invoice.
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That's ridiculous,$20,000.
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And the guy goes, Okay,$1,000 for the knock,$19,000 because I know where to knock.
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So that's the idea.
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So if we can see how somebody's thinking, you can accelerate the training and accelerate their expertise.
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Well, well, I love that.
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And I I have a feeling this is going to play into our topic today because we're gonna talk about action first learning.
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Why don't we start off uh high level?
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Because I know you have a book and uh we we we're not trying to recreate everything that's in the book, but high level, what is action first learning?
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What does that mean?
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Yeah, so action first learning basically came about, you know, there's activity activity-based learning, which is good, but but action action first learning takes it to another level where we start our learning experience with an action or activity.
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Um, because it sets the mode, uh the mood and the mode for the learning to take place.
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You know, if you're in a classroom and you lecture for like an hour and a half, then you say, okay, everybody, let's do an activity.
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You get, uh, I'm not gonna, you know, lots of moans and groans.
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But if you start with action, then you do activity after activity meaningfully, it sparks something and keeps the energy going.
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And so it's basically a philosophy of designing, developing, and delivering instruction, whether it's online or face-to-face, because you can definitely do it online as well, where the learner takes action right away.
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They may not even have full knowledge, because we know from Malcolm Knowles, uh uh a learning uh theorist that adult learners learn best when they know they don't know something.
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So even if they kind of already know the subject, you or or don't know the subject, you may want to throw them in that and go, oh, okay, I don't know this.
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Oh, okay, that's now I'm more open to learning than if I'm not.
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So it's a philosophical approach that starts with kind of a trigger, like, okay, here's something like a question or a problem or a situation, then the application of their knowledge occurs.
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If they don't know something, then the learning occurs.
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And then at the end, it includes reflection.
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Because to me, there's no learning without reflection, it's just an experience.
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And so if we want really somebody to have a learning experience, they need to reflect on it.
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And unfortunately, we're not the best reflectors ever.
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So uh we need some coaching and some help and some assistance with that.
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Okay, so uh I I I love this approach and I love the idea of getting people in there, but it is inevitable that and and probably in most experiences, right, people don't know the thing that you want them to know.
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Like if I'm in a corporate corporate environment and I don't know if it's whether it's using a tool or a process or something like that, obviously we're do we're probably providing some training because there's an unknown, like they just don't know.
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Um I I gotta imagine that in that process, uh particularly in adult learning, there's this kind of this idea, I feel like we don't want people to fail.
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We don't want them to get caught up in like, oh my gosh, I can't do this, I I don't know what to do.
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Because there's a maybe a stigmatism of around that.
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It just feels like that could be a barrier.
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So from that action-first learning approach, how how do you address that?
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Like if I was gonna put this in practice in my my office, what what kind of things should I be thinking about to one, maybe not make sure one, I don't want people to feel like they're failing, but I want them to realize they don't know because as you said, if I realize they don't know something, I'm probably more open to learning, right?
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I I can't.
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So that's a good right, yeah, that's that's a really good question.
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So one simpler simple way to is to do that online, like when we do online instruction.
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And I I go back to my um you know, all my research and work on games, because if you think about most games, what they'll do is they'll allow you to start the game at like let's say expert mode.
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And you start playing at expert mode, and you're like, oh man, I'm getting I'm not going anywhere.
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This is horrible.
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And so then you come back to the middle mode, right?
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And if it's the first time you play the game, maybe you can survive at middle mode, but maybe you can't.
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Then you come down to easy mode, and then you're accomplishing what's in the game.
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So one way to do it online is to provide different levels of entry into the content or experience.
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Another way to do that is think about online help.
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So, some online help, like you're trying to solve a problem, let's say you can't solve it.
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The first level of help might be kind of fairly vague, like, oh, perhaps you should look at the connections between the items.
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You're like, oh, okay.
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Um, yeah, I'm not getting that.
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So then you maybe you go to the next one, and the second says on the left-hand side of the machine, there are two items that need to be connected.
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Like, okay, maybe you still don't get that.
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Then it's the third level of help is okay, see that yellow thing and the blue thing, connect them like this, right?
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And so that's the third level of help.
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So one of the ways that we can do that to help mitigate it is um if I get super frustrated, I would go to the third level of help.
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But if I'm still going, like, I think I can get this, maybe I'd go to the second level or first level.
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So that's one way to mitigate it.
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The other way to mitigate it, which is really interesting, speaking of games, is people are more willing to fail in a game situation than they are typically in a learning situation.
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Because they understand that games have failures and that's okay.
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You know, um, I always talk about game, you know you're gonna fail, you know it's okay to fail in a game because you have three lives to start with.
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So hey, I can mess up twice, no big deal.
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So even in a classroom situation, you can set it up, say, hey, this is kind of a game environment.
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We've got three chances to do this, or four chances, or five, how many you want to uh set it up?
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And those chances and making it more game like kind of reduces that stress, that fear of failure, and allows people to experiment and explore a little bit more than they normally would.
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Yeah, so well, I I love that.
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As as a fan of games, uh, you know, role-playing games, board games, less video games, but still as a fan of games, that makes a lot of sense.
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That uh that kind of creates an environment that there's an expectation, right?
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That hey, you don't you don't know everything.
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Although that should be life, but you know, we're not here to philosophize about life.
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So so I I I I love that.
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But it does seem like are there areas or types of learning, uh maybe not types of learning even, but kind of like times when this works better than others, because it does seem like maybe there's things you just need to tell somebody, but are there like you you mentioned like connecting two things?
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Are there is there an ideal time for action-based learning?
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Well, so one of so if you think about, you know, if the learners have absolutely positively no knowledge of the uh situation, then action-first learning probably isn't the best.
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Having said that, however, like let's say that you're teaching a new piece of software.
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Most people have used software in some way or another.
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And so uh a lot of people can suss out kind of, oh, maybe I should do this, maybe I should do that, and then get stuck.
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So even if there's uh no knowledge of that software at all, sometimes it can be helpful.
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Um it's not as uh so this is the the tr the quagmire people get into.
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They say, well, you know, if we just let people try stuff out, uh then they're not gonna learn it.
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And what's gonna happen is um you know, it's better and faster if I just dictate everything to them.
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We falsely believe that that means that they'll learn from that.
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And not necessarily, we've all been in instructional situations where somebody has lectured to us about what we're supposed to do, and then afterwards we're like, what are you what are we supposed to do?
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Do you know what we're supposed to do?
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I don't know what we're supposed to do.
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Uh I thought they said that I don't know, right?
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But if you actually work and figure it out together, then it can be more helpful.
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But obviously, all instructional strategies have to take you into account who the learners are, what the level of their sophistication, the sophistication of the knowledge, and what we tr what we want to try to accomplish.
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But the reason why I wrote the book and I'm so passionate about it is because we've totally erred on the wrong side, which is okay, everything needs to be taught by a lecture.
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So we're gonna lecture, we're gonna tell you, or you're gonna read about this, and you know, maybe you'll have the experience later on, maybe you won't, maybe you'll practice your skills, maybe you won't.
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Um, you know, I always think about uh, you know, take take sports figures who practice all the time.
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So Tom Brady, for example, so uh I'm a fan, so when when he played for the Patriots, I I could not like Tom Brady at all.
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But once he went to the box, I'm like, okay, fine, I can root for Tom Brady.
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Um he practiced football every day.
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He was the first one at the stadium, he was the last one to leave.
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My goodness, I don't know anybody who could know more football than Tom Brady, but he practiced all the time.
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That's what made him so good.
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But we've got people in companies, yeah, I've been a salesperson for 10 years, I know everything about sales, so I don't need any practice, right?
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I don't need you are practicing, you're practicing on potential customers every single day.
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Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't.
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Oh, I'm an insurance, I don't need any practice looking at claims.
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Well, sometimes you get the claims right, sometimes you get them wrong.
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So the idea that you know we don't need to practice or we don't need this experience, uh, I I think hurts organizations more than they even realize.
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And when that happens, um the the customers pay the price, and ultimately the company pays the price as well.
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So uh it's valuable to have that kind of experience and to implement action first learning as opposed to 100% didactic.
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But you know, it's never a solution, uh a nuanced solution is never like all action first learning or all, you know, it's it's really somewhere in the middle, and that's the job of us as smart designers of instruction to figure out where that needs to be.
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Yeah, well, I and I I I love that the the realization that we're we're probably not doing enough uh practice, right?
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Building in that that opportunity, and and and I think that ties to reflection too.
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You mentioned that earlier, and I'm and I'm curious.
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Um as let's say someone's trying to apply this, and obviously they need to go read your book to get the full full context, and I don't want to assume that they're gonna be able to just do it based on this podcast, but we let's say we set some up, kind of maybe it's a gamification a little bit, opportunity for them to let's take the sales training example.
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They they get in a situation, they have to kind of work their way through that.
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Um, they get some then further instruction.
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From a reflection standpoint, being that it's so important, how do we structure reflection better to tie all those things that you just talked about to be what maybe more solidified?
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I don't know if it's maybe a memory thing or if it's more of a making connections type thing.
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So I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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So so first of all, uh the first fault that I see.
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Well, second of all, well, let me back up even more.
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Yeah, so if they listen to this podcast, try to apply action first learning and then go get the book, that's the right way to do it, right?
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So take action, yeah.
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You know, see if you could do it, and then if you can, I could stumble, get the book.
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But um, so so what happens is first of all, lots of learning.
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Um there's tons of learning situations where there's no reflection at all, right?
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Okay, thanks for coming to class.
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Or congratulations, you passed the final 10-point quiz at the end of this e-learning module, which you hit next to continue as fast as you possibly could.
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So that means that um there's not a lot of that built in.
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So the very first thing, very simple thing we could do, is force reflection.
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Okay, before you enter this module, let me ask a couple questions about how do you think you might apply this in the future?
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So that's that's one question, the future application.
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Asking them what roadblocks they think they're they're gonna encounter implementing this.
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So now they have to think through it and think through possible obstacles.
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You could ask what kind of modifications would you make to this instruction to make it work in your work environment.
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So that's important.
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It would be really helpful if you could get the managers involved.
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So there's if you could send them an email like, hey, Matt just went to this training on such and such and such and such, when he comes back to the office, ask him these questions.
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Matt, what did you learn that you're gonna apply today?
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And what were the difficulties in what you were learning?
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You know, those kind of of things can help um Matt become better at applying and reflecting on what's happening.
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Giving people the opportunity to journal and then giving them good old-fashioned prompts, not e-learning prompts, but good old-fashioned prompts about okay, you had this learning experience.
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How's this relate to other learning experiences you've had?
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And the reason why we need to prompt and help people to think about that is a couple reasons.
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One is I mean, I I went to college, you know, years of of schooling, very little of that time was ever said, Oh, Carl, here's how you reflect on your learning.
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Like, oh, when's the when does that happen?
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Like almost never.
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So we don't, we we're not trained to do that, we're not prepared to do that.
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Second is um, especially in this environment, everything's so busy and hectic that uh okay, once you're done with training, you're boom, you're you're right into something else.
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And if it's online, you're probably doing training in the background while you're responding to emails or something like that.
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So you don't have the time to reflect either.
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So having that uh built in, oh, here's three questions you need to do.
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One time we did we did this uh really cool game.
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Um it was called Zombie Sales Apocalypse.
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It was an online game, it was so much fun, it was really cool for a pharma company.
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And at the end of that game, to get the reps who took the who played the game to reflect, we had a reporter at the end of the game say, Wow, it was really tough in there with all those zombies.
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Let me ask you a few questions.
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And it was just a way within the flow of the story to get them to reflect on the learning that occurred.
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And if we can encourage learners to reflect, we can then help them become better learners and build their reflection skills.
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And so um that's why you know some people have 10, like two people have 10 years of experience.
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One person leverages that experience and does great things, the other person they they just can't get past the ceiling.
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The reason why, a lot of times, is that this person is not reflecting and learning those lessons so that they can do better, you know, in the 11th year.
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And that's what we want to kind of encourage as we go through that process.
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Well, I've you're giving me some ideas.
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I think about, you know, we speak at conferences a lot, and I I see you at a variety of conferences.
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I'm thinking, man, I I need to have something set up so people can reflect after my sessions to learn better.
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Uh I and I want to get to uh talk about images, but I want to just real quick on reflection, how is there a timing issue?
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Like, should reflection happen like really close to the experience in learning, or is there some space that is okay?
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Because I'm thinking about that that email to the manager, right?
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:21.839
Like if it's a day or two later, is that as effective, or should it be like I've learned, I've gone through this experience, and now I've reflected, or maybe it's even something we should be doing multiple times.
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:24.000
Yeah, so answer B.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.160
So we should definitely be doing it multiple times.
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:38.000
So so after you have an experience, like one of the things I like to do is for my students, I'll I'll teach a uh a class, and then the the next day is a quiz on what we covered in class.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.839
So, you know, not coming up or whatever, or you could do a pop quiz before class.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:48.079
Uh as actually turns out from research perspective, quizzes are like a really good tool for reflection.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:53.440
We don't like them and yeah, yuck, but they actually are really powerful.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:00.559
Um but if we want to continue the knowledge and continue the reflection, then we do want to do it at intervals.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:15.839
So one interval would be closely after the learning experience, another might be a week later, and then maybe a month later, and then repeat that maybe every quarter if you really want the reflection and the learning to stick.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:30.799
And then the other thing that that we should do is you know, teach the managers, teach teach everyone to reflect so that the managers reflect so that it's no longer like, okay, Carl, you had this experience, now you need to sit down and reflect.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.920
It's hey, I had this experience, hmm, how can I apply this to what I do in the future?
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.319
Or how can I apply this to another client?
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:46.160
And to get me into the model of that reflection or or or the the mode of reflecting is a really important element.
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:56.480
So um I I think right after an experience, uh maybe a week after the experience, and then you know, a month and then quarterly is probably an ideal um situation.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.519
We have we have to be a little bit careful as learner designers of learning.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:14.000
We know space practice works and space retrieval works, but if you do that for every single class, you know, then every day your first you know seven hours or ref you know you can't do that, like like you know, nudges to do that.
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.079
So we have to be a little strategic about it.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.440
But if we could teach the person to do it themselves, kind of like metacognition, right?
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:28.960
If you think about your own thinking and think how you think, then you're gonna be better at thinking and solving problems and recognizing your own short shortcomings.
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.319
Same thing with reflection.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:40.240
If you could think about how you reflect, what you should reflect upon, and then how to apply that reflection, you're gonna be a better uh uh learner, better contributor, etc.
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.400
Oh, I I I love that.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.880
So uh I want to make sure we we leave just enough time here uh before we move into our speedrun questions.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:57.359
So one of the things we haven't talked about in this conversation, and I think you've laid out some awesome ideas that apply to so many different types of kind of approaches to learning.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:04.079
What role have you found that using images or video can play in in action-first learning?
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:10.480
It seems like there's lots of ways you could use it, but I'm curious from you as the expert here, what would you suggest?
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:16.720
Yeah, so so um one of the chapters in the book is about instructional comics.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.680
And it's one of my favorite chapters in the book, and I didn't write it.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:32.240
Kevin Thorne wrote it, but he based it on some his dissertation and the research he did about how effective it is to use digital comics and uh interactive comics.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:41.680
And so uh using those kind of elements for imagery can be really important because one is a comic is an abstraction of reality.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:50.160
So you can focus on what's really important, and you can add layers of um uh uh reality on top of it.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:59.759
So, for example, if I showed you an image of a character sitting in the corner with a dark cloud over their head, you would right away know, oh, okay, maybe they're sad or maybe they're angry or whatever.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
You get it right away.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.319
I don't have to spend a lot of words telling you, you know, this person's sitting in the corner and they're that kind of stuff.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.640
So that's one area where I think uh images can be very effective.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:23.759
And and also research, there's some really interesting research about um adult coloring of images and how effective that is for focus and creativity, which I think is really interesting.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:35.119
There's been a bunch of studies, really interesting studies about people with anxiety and how coloring calms them down and puts them not really in a flow state, but in more a calmer state.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:41.519
We know that being calm is is a condition that is helpful from a learning perspective.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.160
So, you know, using the images that way can help.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:52.240
But then the other thing is that images, uh, a well-developed image can give you the message right away.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.559
So we have symbols that we use.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:02.319
So for example, you know, if I say, okay, there's a red circle with a red line through it, you know, on top of bare feet.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.119
Well, you know right away, no bare feet, right?
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.759
So I don't have to explain it to you, I don't have to do anything like that.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.119
So images provide that kind of powerful element.
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:22.640
And then video, video is so uh what I think is so interesting about it is the whole vocabulary around video that we don't even realize we have.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:27.680
So um an example of that is and I think a great example is Wayne's World.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:33.519
So when you watch Wayne's World, you have Wayne and Garth, and what do they do to go back in time, right?
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.359
They go brr brrrr and they go late and they wiggle the screen.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:44.880
But but that's a convention that we all know every time you watch a movie and you see that happen, you know you're going back in time, right?
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.359
And so no one has to explain that to you.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.880
It just kind of happens.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:55.599
Or if you want to show somebody really contemplating or frustrating, you zoom in on them, right?
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.920
You zoom in because you show that they're really concentrating or really frustrating.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.279
And those types of visual cues, I think, are not used enough in learning and development.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:14.640
Partly because it used to be that you had to be like, you know, Steven Spielberg to create like a video.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.480
Like you don't have to anymore.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.319
You can the tools are right there.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:25.680
Uh YouTube did a great thing, because I remember professional video, you know, training videos always had to be like the highest quality ever.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.599
And now you have like YouTube like video.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:35.359
But one of the things I think that we're missing, and the sad part is tools like Camtasian and other tools have that ability in it.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.720
You can add those kind of special effects, but people just aren't versed enough in them.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:55.279
So I think um one of the things that that you can really do to expand the use of uh the the storytelling and the effectiveness of video is to leverage those conventions that we already have to help tell the video story.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.640
Well, I love that.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.960
The the the language of imagery, right?
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:08.480
I mean, you mentioned with the comic books of the cloud, and I I think there is this whole vocabulary that it and it's it's it's a skill to develop, and you have to learn it and and watch for it.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:18.640
And I think uh I I think it's incredible what what you're saying, because I you know, I I often talk to people about using video and the things that we can learn, particularly short-form video creators, right?
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:26.799
They're doing they're using this language in a you know, not this really formal way, but they are doing it in a way that helps you to convey so much information.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.480
So I I I love this.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.119
I'm excited.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.519
I've got some things to go back and try, some things to do.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.839
I'm sure uh listeners will as well.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.400
Uh, but Carl, we like I said, I love games, and because of that, we've got some dice to roll.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:43.759
So we're gonna move into our speed round, which is quick, fast questions with quick, fast answers.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:45.119
So here we go.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.599
All right, the dice tower is if the button come on, there we go.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.240
Okay, so we're gonna roll the die, 12-sided die, Carl.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.920
And question number eight to start with is where do you turn for inspiration?
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.680
So you're you gotta you're you write lots of books, you do lots of teaching.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.559
What's a what's one of the wells you go to?
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.519
So for action first learning, the uh well was action comics.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:18.319
So I do go to comic books to get ideas, inspiration, and themes.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:20.480
I love that.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.519
Action first comics, and uh uh is there a favorite.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.279
I'm gonna ask go off script here, ask, is there a favorite comic that you read?
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.279
Well, my favorite superhero for the longest time was Batman, Batman detective series.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279
So um, you know, the brooding kind of silent Batman.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:39.680
So yeah, that's my favorite.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.160
Okay, so I'm waiting for the car Karl Kopp Batman edition of any book.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:56.480
So all right, well, let's go on to our next question, and it's gonna be question number five, which is if you could acquire instantly any new skill, what would it be and why?
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.880
So you've given the gift of a new skill.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.160
What would you do?
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:01.680
Uh language.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.319
I would love to be able to speak multiple languages.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:09.200
So uh I can only speak one language, but it would be fantastic if I could speak many, many languages.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:10.079
I love it.
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.519
And and and very practical, because you could do a lot with that.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:14.160
That'd be cool.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.640
All right, let's do one more dice roll here.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.640
Oh, can't do duplicates.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.799
You know, it's it's funny.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:26.880
I how many times I've done this show, I very rarely roll duplicates, and now it's two episodes in a row that we've gotten some.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.000
So all right, the last question is number two here.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:38.000
If you could travel anywhere in the world right now using your new gifted language skills, where would you go and why?
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.160
Wow, that that's a great question.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:56.000
So I've never been to Japan, so I think it would be really interesting to go to Japan because it uh like Tokyo, especially, because it's so kinetic and so energetic, uh, but uh a different culture.
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.720
And so I think that would be kind of really interesting for me, and I think it would be a lot of fun.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.920
I think it would be uh uh amazing.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.240
Uh and thank you for sharing those answers.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:11.440
Uh Carl, as we wrap up the show, uh obviously we've got a lot to offer people.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.640
If they want to connect with you or learn more, where should they go?
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:19.119
So, yeah, so probably the best place is to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.359
It's just, you know, look up uh Carl Kopp.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:36.799
Tell me, please let me know that, you know, hey, I listened to the the uh podcast and you know, want to because I get so many, it's amazing the number of uh unsolicited, it looks like a real uh reach out, but it it's actually I'm gonna sell you something.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.039
Um and then YouTube, uh, I put a lot of especially action first learning.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.759
Um I'm Carl Kopp on YouTube, you can look at me or at prof cop01.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:52.720
Um and I I have a lot of videos on there about um action first learning, so that's a good place to look up.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.960
And then of course I'm gonna be at Dev Learn and you know I'm usually at ATD and you know, all those kind of places.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.160
And so uh those are another place that you can look up look me up.
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.680
But seriously, if you want to find anything, just you know Google Carl Kopp, you'll find information.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:20.079
Um I have a I have a newsletter on LinkedIn called LD Easter Eggs, which I have a lot of fun with that, where I bring research and kind of hopefully aha moments to to LD and uh things that we didn't know.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:28.480
I did a whole cool thing on how um the Wolverine uh Deadpool movie uh is a new way of thinking about learning and development.
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:31.680
So, you know, those kinds of uh uh thoughts.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.319
They may be uh they may be off-centered thought.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.559
It might not be like, what is he talking about?
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.079
But uh anyway, it's always a fun, enjoyable kind of experience.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:40.799
I love it.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.720
And we'll make sure we get some links in the description so you can go find those quick and easily.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.799
Well, uh, Dr.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:51.839
Cobb, we like to wrap the show up the same way every single time, and we ask people for their final take.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.640
So what is your final take?
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:13.599
So my final take is if you're not familiar with video conventions and tools, grab a video tool, grab your favorite movie, and see if you can reenact some of the scenes using the same cuts and elements that drew your attention.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.160
I love that, and that is one of my favorite things to try to do.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.119
I had somebody once reach out to me, ask, they wanted a stamp, like a you know how you put a stamp down?
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:31.279
They wanted a like a and it they wanted to say WTF, but they wanted this effect for the stamp, and I thought, can I can I make that?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.799
I got close.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:33.920
I got really, really close.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:34.799
It was pretty good.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:36.240
So, well, uh Dr.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.880
Cop, thank you so much for joining us here in the Visual Lounge.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:43.359
Always appreciate your insights and thoughts, and uh loved love to be able to chat with you.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:44.720
Yeah, great to be here.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:45.519
Thanks for having me.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:46.400
You bet.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.480
All right, everybody, go check out Dr.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:49.599
Cop's books.
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:54.960
Go go lots of great information out there, whether you're interested in the action first learning, you're interested in gamification.
00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:58.559
He's he's got a lot there that you can uh read.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.720
Also check out the YouTube channel and all that.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:11.680
But I what I hope is that as you're walking away from this podcast or as you're finished listening, that you're thinking about hey, how do we implement things a little bit differently and better that really impact learning?
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:15.200
We're not just focused on like delivery of content.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:27.440
Uh you know, in recording several of these podcasts, it's the theme I'm starting here is like we can't just deliver more content, we gotta make sure it's good content, it's the right content in the right time and right place, and it's we're doing these practices to help people.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:35.519
So, with that said, of course, we like to make sure that you're getting the best opportunities that you can to continue to learn, and we encourage you to level up every single day.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:36.640
Thanks, everybody.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.879
If you're not familiar with video conventions and tools, grab a video tool, grab your favorite movie, and see if you can reenact some of the scenes using the same cuts and elements that drew your attention.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:22.000
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are or wherever you're watching from.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:24.079
My name is Matt Pierce, host of Visual Lounge.
00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.079
Today we're gonna be talking about action-first learning.
00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:41.280
So we're gonna get into what that is, but it's gonna be exciting and it's gonna help you to start thinking about how you can apply some things into your learning process, into your teaching process a little bit better, a little bit, you know, more approachable.
00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:42.399
We've got Dr.
00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.159
Carl Kopp here talking to us about that process.
00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:47.840
So let me go ahead and introduce him.
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:48.320
Dr.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:56.320
Carl Kopp is a professor of instructional technology at Bloomsburg University and a leading expert in learning design and interactive instruction.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:05.280
He's the author of Action First Learning and Learning in 3D and speaks globally on creating meaningful engagement-driven learning experiences.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.079
Through his research, writing, and consulting, Dr.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:13.760
Kopp helps organizations move beyond content delivery to real-world application and impact.
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:15.840
And with that said, please help me welcome Dr.
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.920
Carl Kopp to the Visual Lounge.
00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.920
Well, uh, Carl, what I want to start off is where we always start off.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:29.519
And uh, what's one tip or visual idea about using images or videos that you would give us about using them in learning?
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:38.480
So so yeah, one of the things that I think is really effective is to use it to show people's cognition or what people are thinking.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:50.000
So I always call it the reality TV show technique, but basically where they show somebody doing, you know, like Jersey Shore, they show somebody doing something like really stupid, and then they explain why they're doing it.
00:01:50.159 --> 00:02:05.920
But from a learning perspective, we can show somebody doing something really effective, like maybe in a sales meeting, bringing up maybe a product feature functionality, and then cutting to this video insert of them explaining, well, the reason why I use this approach was because of this.
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:16.080
And I think that's a really great approach to grab people's attention and to help make the unseeable, you know, the thinking process more seeable and more tangible.
00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:32.080
Well, I I I love that as an approach because you're right, there's things that we say and or show there are these good steps, but the reasons behind it, or maybe the thought process that was happening, because someone might have a really good thought process, it just maybe it, but it was a bad decision, right?
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:34.879
Uh and so it's yeah, I I so I love that as an approach.
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:43.120
Yeah, or or the or they may do something that looks like super simple and super easy, and then you're like, oh, well, that's simple, I could do that.
00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:47.280
And you're like, oh no, I I I can't do that because I didn't think about this or think about that.
00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:59.039
It's kind of there's an old joke, I think, somewhere where you know this machine's not working, and they call this guy, comes in and he looks at the machine for 15 minutes and he knocks on the machine and it starts right back up.
00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.400
And the guy goes, send me an invoice, he sends an invoice for$20,000.
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:04.319
And guys like, what do you mean,$20,000?
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.240
I want an itemized invoice.
00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:07.759
That's ridiculous,$20,000.
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:15.759
And the guy goes, Okay,$1,000 for the knock,$19,000 because I know where to knock.
00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:18.960
So that's the idea.
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:24.319
So if we can see how somebody's thinking, you can accelerate the training and accelerate their expertise.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:25.840
Well, well, I love that.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.159
And I I have a feeling this is going to play into our topic today because we're gonna talk about action first learning.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:32.800
Why don't we start off uh high level?
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:39.759
Because I know you have a book and uh we we we're not trying to recreate everything that's in the book, but high level, what is action first learning?
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:41.039
What does that mean?
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:56.960
Yeah, so action first learning basically came about, you know, there's activity activity-based learning, which is good, but but action action first learning takes it to another level where we start our learning experience with an action or activity.
00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:02.400
Um, because it sets the mode, uh the mood and the mode for the learning to take place.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:08.400
You know, if you're in a classroom and you lecture for like an hour and a half, then you say, okay, everybody, let's do an activity.
00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:11.599
You get, uh, I'm not gonna, you know, lots of moans and groans.
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:20.800
But if you start with action, then you do activity after activity meaningfully, it sparks something and keeps the energy going.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:34.480
And so it's basically a philosophy of designing, developing, and delivering instruction, whether it's online or face-to-face, because you can definitely do it online as well, where the learner takes action right away.
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:46.480
They may not even have full knowledge, because we know from Malcolm Knowles, uh uh a learning uh theorist that adult learners learn best when they know they don't know something.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:53.920
So even if they kind of already know the subject, you or or don't know the subject, you may want to throw them in that and go, oh, okay, I don't know this.
00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.759
Oh, okay, that's now I'm more open to learning than if I'm not.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:10.240
So it's a philosophical approach that starts with kind of a trigger, like, okay, here's something like a question or a problem or a situation, then the application of their knowledge occurs.
00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.040
If they don't know something, then the learning occurs.
00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:15.839
And then at the end, it includes reflection.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.839
Because to me, there's no learning without reflection, it's just an experience.
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.800
And so if we want really somebody to have a learning experience, they need to reflect on it.
00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.560
And unfortunately, we're not the best reflectors ever.
00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:32.639
So uh we need some coaching and some help and some assistance with that.
00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:43.600
Okay, so uh I I I love this approach and I love the idea of getting people in there, but it is inevitable that and and probably in most experiences, right, people don't know the thing that you want them to know.
00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:53.680
Like if I'm in a corporate corporate environment and I don't know if it's whether it's using a tool or a process or something like that, obviously we're do we're probably providing some training because there's an unknown, like they just don't know.
00:05:53.920 --> 00:06:02.639
Um I I gotta imagine that in that process, uh particularly in adult learning, there's this kind of this idea, I feel like we don't want people to fail.
00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:07.600
We don't want them to get caught up in like, oh my gosh, I can't do this, I I don't know what to do.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.079
Because there's a maybe a stigmatism of around that.
00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:11.759
It just feels like that could be a barrier.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:16.480
So from that action-first learning approach, how how do you address that?
00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:33.759
Like if I was gonna put this in practice in my my office, what what kind of things should I be thinking about to one, maybe not make sure one, I don't want people to feel like they're failing, but I want them to realize they don't know because as you said, if I realize they don't know something, I'm probably more open to learning, right?
00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.519
I I can't.
00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.639
So that's a good right, yeah, that's that's a really good question.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:44.160
So one simpler simple way to is to do that online, like when we do online instruction.
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:55.519
And I I go back to my um you know, all my research and work on games, because if you think about most games, what they'll do is they'll allow you to start the game at like let's say expert mode.
00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.480
And you start playing at expert mode, and you're like, oh man, I'm getting I'm not going anywhere.
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:01.439
This is horrible.
00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:03.759
And so then you come back to the middle mode, right?
00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:08.160
And if it's the first time you play the game, maybe you can survive at middle mode, but maybe you can't.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.079
Then you come down to easy mode, and then you're accomplishing what's in the game.
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:18.319
So one way to do it online is to provide different levels of entry into the content or experience.
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.120
Another way to do that is think about online help.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:25.199
So, some online help, like you're trying to solve a problem, let's say you can't solve it.
00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:32.480
The first level of help might be kind of fairly vague, like, oh, perhaps you should look at the connections between the items.
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:34.240
You're like, oh, okay.
00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:36.399
Um, yeah, I'm not getting that.
00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:42.480
So then you maybe you go to the next one, and the second says on the left-hand side of the machine, there are two items that need to be connected.
00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.360
Like, okay, maybe you still don't get that.
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:51.040
Then it's the third level of help is okay, see that yellow thing and the blue thing, connect them like this, right?
00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:52.879
And so that's the third level of help.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:08:00.560
So one of the ways that we can do that to help mitigate it is um if I get super frustrated, I would go to the third level of help.
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:05.360
But if I'm still going, like, I think I can get this, maybe I'd go to the second level or first level.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:06.959
So that's one way to mitigate it.
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:17.920
The other way to mitigate it, which is really interesting, speaking of games, is people are more willing to fail in a game situation than they are typically in a learning situation.
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.199
Because they understand that games have failures and that's okay.
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:27.600
You know, um, I always talk about game, you know you're gonna fail, you know it's okay to fail in a game because you have three lives to start with.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:30.000
So hey, I can mess up twice, no big deal.
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.200
So even in a classroom situation, you can set it up, say, hey, this is kind of a game environment.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:40.240
We've got three chances to do this, or four chances, or five, how many you want to uh set it up?
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:52.320
And those chances and making it more game like kind of reduces that stress, that fear of failure, and allows people to experiment and explore a little bit more than they normally would.
00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.639
Yeah, so well, I I love that.
00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:03.279
As as a fan of games, uh, you know, role-playing games, board games, less video games, but still as a fan of games, that makes a lot of sense.
00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.679
That uh that kind of creates an environment that there's an expectation, right?
00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:09.759
That hey, you don't you don't know everything.
00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.399
Although that should be life, but you know, we're not here to philosophize about life.
00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:16.320
So so I I I I love that.
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:31.440
But it does seem like are there areas or types of learning, uh maybe not types of learning even, but kind of like times when this works better than others, because it does seem like maybe there's things you just need to tell somebody, but are there like you you mentioned like connecting two things?
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.399
Are there is there an ideal time for action-based learning?
00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:48.240
Well, so one of so if you think about, you know, if the learners have absolutely positively no knowledge of the uh situation, then action-first learning probably isn't the best.
00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.559
Having said that, however, like let's say that you're teaching a new piece of software.
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.320
Most people have used software in some way or another.
00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:02.960
And so uh a lot of people can suss out kind of, oh, maybe I should do this, maybe I should do that, and then get stuck.
00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:08.559
So even if there's uh no knowledge of that software at all, sometimes it can be helpful.
00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:15.279
Um it's not as uh so this is the the tr the quagmire people get into.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:20.639
They say, well, you know, if we just let people try stuff out, uh then they're not gonna learn it.
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:28.000
And what's gonna happen is um you know, it's better and faster if I just dictate everything to them.
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:34.480
We falsely believe that that means that they'll learn from that.
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:44.639
And not necessarily, we've all been in instructional situations where somebody has lectured to us about what we're supposed to do, and then afterwards we're like, what are you what are we supposed to do?
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:45.600
Do you know what we're supposed to do?
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:46.480
I don't know what we're supposed to do.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:48.879
Uh I thought they said that I don't know, right?
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.679
But if you actually work and figure it out together, then it can be more helpful.
00:10:53.840 --> 00:11:06.799
But obviously, all instructional strategies have to take you into account who the learners are, what the level of their sophistication, the sophistication of the knowledge, and what we tr what we want to try to accomplish.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:16.639
But the reason why I wrote the book and I'm so passionate about it is because we've totally erred on the wrong side, which is okay, everything needs to be taught by a lecture.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:27.039
So we're gonna lecture, we're gonna tell you, or you're gonna read about this, and you know, maybe you'll have the experience later on, maybe you won't, maybe you'll practice your skills, maybe you won't.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:34.720
Um, you know, I always think about uh, you know, take take sports figures who practice all the time.
00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:42.080
So Tom Brady, for example, so uh I'm a fan, so when when he played for the Patriots, I I could not like Tom Brady at all.
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:46.159
But once he went to the box, I'm like, okay, fine, I can root for Tom Brady.
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.679
Um he practiced football every day.
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:53.440
He was the first one at the stadium, he was the last one to leave.
00:11:53.679 --> 00:12:00.960
My goodness, I don't know anybody who could know more football than Tom Brady, but he practiced all the time.
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:02.639
That's what made him so good.
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:09.360
But we've got people in companies, yeah, I've been a salesperson for 10 years, I know everything about sales, so I don't need any practice, right?
00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:14.799
I don't need you are practicing, you're practicing on potential customers every single day.
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:16.799
Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.759
Oh, I'm an insurance, I don't need any practice looking at claims.
00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.639
Well, sometimes you get the claims right, sometimes you get them wrong.
00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:32.159
So the idea that you know we don't need to practice or we don't need this experience, uh, I I think hurts organizations more than they even realize.
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:39.120
And when that happens, um the the customers pay the price, and ultimately the company pays the price as well.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:46.799
So uh it's valuable to have that kind of experience and to implement action first learning as opposed to 100% didactic.
00:12:46.879 --> 00:13:02.240
But you know, it's never a solution, uh a nuanced solution is never like all action first learning or all, you know, it's it's really somewhere in the middle, and that's the job of us as smart designers of instruction to figure out where that needs to be.
00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:09.679
Yeah, well, I and I I I love that the the realization that we're we're probably not doing enough uh practice, right?
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:14.000
Building in that that opportunity, and and and I think that ties to reflection too.
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.399
You mentioned that earlier, and I'm and I'm curious.
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:32.000
Um as let's say someone's trying to apply this, and obviously they need to go read your book to get the full full context, and I don't want to assume that they're gonna be able to just do it based on this podcast, but we let's say we set some up, kind of maybe it's a gamification a little bit, opportunity for them to let's take the sales training example.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:36.240
They they get in a situation, they have to kind of work their way through that.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:38.799
Um, they get some then further instruction.
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:50.639
From a reflection standpoint, being that it's so important, how do we structure reflection better to tie all those things that you just talked about to be what maybe more solidified?
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:55.200
I don't know if it's maybe a memory thing or if it's more of a making connections type thing.
00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:57.279
So I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:58.720
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.840
So so first of all, uh the first fault that I see.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.720
Well, second of all, well, let me back up even more.
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:11.440
Yeah, so if they listen to this podcast, try to apply action first learning and then go get the book, that's the right way to do it, right?
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:12.799
So take action, yeah.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.919
You know, see if you could do it, and then if you can, I could stumble, get the book.
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.799
But um, so so what happens is first of all, lots of learning.
00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.320
Um there's tons of learning situations where there's no reflection at all, right?
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:27.840
Okay, thanks for coming to class.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:36.559
Or congratulations, you passed the final 10-point quiz at the end of this e-learning module, which you hit next to continue as fast as you possibly could.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:40.799
So that means that um there's not a lot of that built in.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:44.559
So the very first thing, very simple thing we could do, is force reflection.
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:51.120
Okay, before you enter this module, let me ask a couple questions about how do you think you might apply this in the future?
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.919
So that's that's one question, the future application.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:59.120
Asking them what roadblocks they think they're they're gonna encounter implementing this.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.799
So now they have to think through it and think through possible obstacles.
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:09.759
You could ask what kind of modifications would you make to this instruction to make it work in your work environment.
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:11.200
So that's important.
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.480
It would be really helpful if you could get the managers involved.
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:22.639
So there's if you could send them an email like, hey, Matt just went to this training on such and such and such and such, when he comes back to the office, ask him these questions.
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.679
Matt, what did you learn that you're gonna apply today?
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.240
And what were the difficulties in what you were learning?
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:35.440
You know, those kind of of things can help um Matt become better at applying and reflecting on what's happening.
00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:44.559
Giving people the opportunity to journal and then giving them good old-fashioned prompts, not e-learning prompts, but good old-fashioned prompts about okay, you had this learning experience.
00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.279
How's this relate to other learning experiences you've had?
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.480
And the reason why we need to prompt and help people to think about that is a couple reasons.
00:15:52.639 --> 00:16:04.080
One is I mean, I I went to college, you know, years of of schooling, very little of that time was ever said, Oh, Carl, here's how you reflect on your learning.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.080
Like, oh, when's the when does that happen?
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:07.279
Like almost never.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.679
So we don't, we we're not trained to do that, we're not prepared to do that.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:22.399
Second is um, especially in this environment, everything's so busy and hectic that uh okay, once you're done with training, you're boom, you're you're right into something else.
00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:27.360
And if it's online, you're probably doing training in the background while you're responding to emails or something like that.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.759
So you don't have the time to reflect either.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.759
So having that uh built in, oh, here's three questions you need to do.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.720
One time we did we did this uh really cool game.
00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.120
Um it was called Zombie Sales Apocalypse.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.679
It was an online game, it was so much fun, it was really cool for a pharma company.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:55.200
And at the end of that game, to get the reps who took the who played the game to reflect, we had a reporter at the end of the game say, Wow, it was really tough in there with all those zombies.
00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:56.960
Let me ask you a few questions.
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:04.400
And it was just a way within the flow of the story to get them to reflect on the learning that occurred.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:14.559
And if we can encourage learners to reflect, we can then help them become better learners and build their reflection skills.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:21.039
And so um that's why you know some people have 10, like two people have 10 years of experience.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:27.519
One person leverages that experience and does great things, the other person they they just can't get past the ceiling.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:38.880
The reason why, a lot of times, is that this person is not reflecting and learning those lessons so that they can do better, you know, in the 11th year.
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:43.039
And that's what we want to kind of encourage as we go through that process.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:45.680
Well, I've you're giving me some ideas.
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.680
I think about, you know, we speak at conferences a lot, and I I see you at a variety of conferences.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:55.839
I'm thinking, man, I I need to have something set up so people can reflect after my sessions to learn better.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.480
Uh I and I want to get to uh talk about images, but I want to just real quick on reflection, how is there a timing issue?
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:09.279
Like, should reflection happen like really close to the experience in learning, or is there some space that is okay?
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.079
Because I'm thinking about that that email to the manager, right?
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:21.839
Like if it's a day or two later, is that as effective, or should it be like I've learned, I've gone through this experience, and now I've reflected, or maybe it's even something we should be doing multiple times.
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:24.000
Yeah, so answer B.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.160
So we should definitely be doing it multiple times.
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:38.000
So so after you have an experience, like one of the things I like to do is for my students, I'll I'll teach a uh a class, and then the the next day is a quiz on what we covered in class.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.839
So, you know, not coming up or whatever, or you could do a pop quiz before class.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:48.079
Uh as actually turns out from research perspective, quizzes are like a really good tool for reflection.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:53.440
We don't like them and yeah, yuck, but they actually are really powerful.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:00.559
Um but if we want to continue the knowledge and continue the reflection, then we do want to do it at intervals.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:15.839
So one interval would be closely after the learning experience, another might be a week later, and then maybe a month later, and then repeat that maybe every quarter if you really want the reflection and the learning to stick.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:30.799
And then the other thing that that we should do is you know, teach the managers, teach teach everyone to reflect so that the managers reflect so that it's no longer like, okay, Carl, you had this experience, now you need to sit down and reflect.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.920
It's hey, I had this experience, hmm, how can I apply this to what I do in the future?
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.319
Or how can I apply this to another client?
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:46.160
And to get me into the model of that reflection or or or the the mode of reflecting is a really important element.
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:56.480
So um I I think right after an experience, uh maybe a week after the experience, and then you know, a month and then quarterly is probably an ideal um situation.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.519
We have we have to be a little bit careful as learner designers of learning.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:14.000
We know space practice works and space retrieval works, but if you do that for every single class, you know, then every day your first you know seven hours or ref you know you can't do that, like like you know, nudges to do that.
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.079
So we have to be a little strategic about it.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.440
But if we could teach the person to do it themselves, kind of like metacognition, right?
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:28.960
If you think about your own thinking and think how you think, then you're gonna be better at thinking and solving problems and recognizing your own short shortcomings.
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.319
Same thing with reflection.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:40.240
If you could think about how you reflect, what you should reflect upon, and then how to apply that reflection, you're gonna be a better uh uh learner, better contributor, etc.
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.400
Oh, I I I love that.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.880
So uh I want to make sure we we leave just enough time here uh before we move into our speedrun questions.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:57.359
So one of the things we haven't talked about in this conversation, and I think you've laid out some awesome ideas that apply to so many different types of kind of approaches to learning.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:04.079
What role have you found that using images or video can play in in action-first learning?
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:10.480
It seems like there's lots of ways you could use it, but I'm curious from you as the expert here, what would you suggest?
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:16.720
Yeah, so so um one of the chapters in the book is about instructional comics.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.680
And it's one of my favorite chapters in the book, and I didn't write it.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:32.240
Kevin Thorne wrote it, but he based it on some his dissertation and the research he did about how effective it is to use digital comics and uh interactive comics.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:41.680
And so uh using those kind of elements for imagery can be really important because one is a comic is an abstraction of reality.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:50.160
So you can focus on what's really important, and you can add layers of um uh uh reality on top of it.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:59.759
So, for example, if I showed you an image of a character sitting in the corner with a dark cloud over their head, you would right away know, oh, okay, maybe they're sad or maybe they're angry or whatever.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
You get it right away.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.319
I don't have to spend a lot of words telling you, you know, this person's sitting in the corner and they're that kind of stuff.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.640
So that's one area where I think uh images can be very effective.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:23.759
And and also research, there's some really interesting research about um adult coloring of images and how effective that is for focus and creativity, which I think is really interesting.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:35.119
There's been a bunch of studies, really interesting studies about people with anxiety and how coloring calms them down and puts them not really in a flow state, but in more a calmer state.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:41.519
We know that being calm is is a condition that is helpful from a learning perspective.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.160
So, you know, using the images that way can help.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:52.240
But then the other thing is that images, uh, a well-developed image can give you the message right away.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.559
So we have symbols that we use.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:02.319
So for example, you know, if I say, okay, there's a red circle with a red line through it, you know, on top of bare feet.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.119
Well, you know right away, no bare feet, right?
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.759
So I don't have to explain it to you, I don't have to do anything like that.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.119
So images provide that kind of powerful element.
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:22.640
And then video, video is so uh what I think is so interesting about it is the whole vocabulary around video that we don't even realize we have.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:27.680
So um an example of that is and I think a great example is Wayne's World.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:33.519
So when you watch Wayne's World, you have Wayne and Garth, and what do they do to go back in time, right?
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.359
They go brr brrrr and they go late and they wiggle the screen.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:44.880
But but that's a convention that we all know every time you watch a movie and you see that happen, you know you're going back in time, right?
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.359
And so no one has to explain that to you.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.880
It just kind of happens.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:55.599
Or if you want to show somebody really contemplating or frustrating, you zoom in on them, right?
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.920
You zoom in because you show that they're really concentrating or really frustrating.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.279
And those types of visual cues, I think, are not used enough in learning and development.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:14.640
Partly because it used to be that you had to be like, you know, Steven Spielberg to create like a video.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.480
Like you don't have to anymore.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.319
You can the tools are right there.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:25.680
Uh YouTube did a great thing, because I remember professional video, you know, training videos always had to be like the highest quality ever.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.599
And now you have like YouTube like video.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:35.359
But one of the things I think that we're missing, and the sad part is tools like Camtasian and other tools have that ability in it.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.720
You can add those kind of special effects, but people just aren't versed enough in them.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:55.279
So I think um one of the things that that you can really do to expand the use of uh the the storytelling and the effectiveness of video is to leverage those conventions that we already have to help tell the video story.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.640
Well, I love that.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.960
The the the language of imagery, right?
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:08.480
I mean, you mentioned with the comic books of the cloud, and I I think there is this whole vocabulary that it and it's it's it's a skill to develop, and you have to learn it and and watch for it.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:18.640
And I think uh I I think it's incredible what what you're saying, because I you know, I I often talk to people about using video and the things that we can learn, particularly short-form video creators, right?
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:26.799
They're doing they're using this language in a you know, not this really formal way, but they are doing it in a way that helps you to convey so much information.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.480
So I I I love this.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.119
I'm excited.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.519
I've got some things to go back and try, some things to do.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.839
I'm sure uh listeners will as well.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.400
Uh, but Carl, we like I said, I love games, and because of that, we've got some dice to roll.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:43.759
So we're gonna move into our speed round, which is quick, fast questions with quick, fast answers.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:45.119
So here we go.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.599
All right, the dice tower is if the button come on, there we go.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.240
Okay, so we're gonna roll the die, 12-sided die, Carl.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.920
And question number eight to start with is where do you turn for inspiration?
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.680
So you're you gotta you're you write lots of books, you do lots of teaching.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.559
What's a what's one of the wells you go to?
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.519
So for action first learning, the uh well was action comics.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:18.319
So I do go to comic books to get ideas, inspiration, and themes.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:20.480
I love that.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.519
Action first comics, and uh uh is there a favorite.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.279
I'm gonna ask go off script here, ask, is there a favorite comic that you read?
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.279
Well, my favorite superhero for the longest time was Batman, Batman detective series.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279
So um, you know, the brooding kind of silent Batman.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:39.680
So yeah, that's my favorite.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.160
Okay, so I'm waiting for the car Karl Kopp Batman edition of any book.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:56.480
So all right, well, let's go on to our next question, and it's gonna be question number five, which is if you could acquire instantly any new skill, what would it be and why?
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.880
So you've given the gift of a new skill.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.160
What would you do?
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:01.680
Uh language.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.319
I would love to be able to speak multiple languages.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:09.200
So uh I can only speak one language, but it would be fantastic if I could speak many, many languages.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:10.079
I love it.
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.519
And and and very practical, because you could do a lot with that.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:14.160
That'd be cool.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.640
All right, let's do one more dice roll here.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.640
Oh, can't do duplicates.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.799
You know, it's it's funny.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:26.880
I how many times I've done this show, I very rarely roll duplicates, and now it's two episodes in a row that we've gotten some.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.000
So all right, the last question is number two here.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:38.000
If you could travel anywhere in the world right now using your new gifted language skills, where would you go and why?
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.160
Wow, that that's a great question.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:56.000
So I've never been to Japan, so I think it would be really interesting to go to Japan because it uh like Tokyo, especially, because it's so kinetic and so energetic, uh, but uh a different culture.
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.720
And so I think that would be kind of really interesting for me, and I think it would be a lot of fun.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.920
I think it would be uh uh amazing.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.240
Uh and thank you for sharing those answers.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:11.440
Uh Carl, as we wrap up the show, uh obviously we've got a lot to offer people.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.640
If they want to connect with you or learn more, where should they go?
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:19.119
So, yeah, so probably the best place is to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.359
It's just, you know, look up uh Carl Kopp.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:36.799
Tell me, please let me know that, you know, hey, I listened to the the uh podcast and you know, want to because I get so many, it's amazing the number of uh unsolicited, it looks like a real uh reach out, but it it's actually I'm gonna sell you something.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.039
Um and then YouTube, uh, I put a lot of especially action first learning.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.759
Um I'm Carl Kopp on YouTube, you can look at me or at prof cop01.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:52.720
Um and I I have a lot of videos on there about um action first learning, so that's a good place to look up.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.960
And then of course I'm gonna be at Dev Learn and you know I'm usually at ATD and you know, all those kind of places.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.160
And so uh those are another place that you can look up look me up.
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.680
But seriously, if you want to find anything, just you know Google Carl Kopp, you'll find information.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:20.079
Um I have a I have a newsletter on LinkedIn called LD Easter Eggs, which I have a lot of fun with that, where I bring research and kind of hopefully aha moments to to LD and uh things that we didn't know.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:28.480
I did a whole cool thing on how um the Wolverine uh Deadpool movie uh is a new way of thinking about learning and development.
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:31.680
So, you know, those kinds of uh uh thoughts.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.319
They may be uh they may be off-centered thought.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.559
It might not be like, what is he talking about?
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.079
But uh anyway, it's always a fun, enjoyable kind of experience.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:40.799
I love it.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.720
And we'll make sure we get some links in the description so you can go find those quick and easily.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.799
Well, uh, Dr.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:51.839
Cobb, we like to wrap the show up the same way every single time, and we ask people for their final take.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.640
So what is your final take?
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:13.599
So my final take is if you're not familiar with video conventions and tools, grab a video tool, grab your favorite movie, and see if you can reenact some of the scenes using the same cuts and elements that drew your attention.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.160
I love that, and that is one of my favorite things to try to do.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.119
I had somebody once reach out to me, ask, they wanted a stamp, like a you know how you put a stamp down?
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:31.279
They wanted a like a and it they wanted to say WTF, but they wanted this effect for the stamp, and I thought, can I can I make that?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.799
I got close.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:33.920
I got really, really close.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:34.799
It was pretty good.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:36.240
So, well, uh Dr.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.880
Cop, thank you so much for joining us here in the Visual Lounge.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:43.359
Always appreciate your insights and thoughts, and uh loved love to be able to chat with you.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:44.720
Yeah, great to be here.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:45.519
Thanks for having me.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:46.400
You bet.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.480
All right, everybody, go check out Dr.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:49.599
Cop's books.
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:54.960
Go go lots of great information out there, whether you're interested in the action first learning, you're interested in gamification.
00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:58.559
He's he's got a lot there that you can uh read.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.720
Also check out the YouTube channel and all that.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:11.680
But I what I hope is that as you're walking away from this podcast or as you're finished listening, that you're thinking about hey, how do we implement things a little bit differently and better that really impact learning?
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:15.200
We're not just focused on like delivery of content.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:27.440
Uh you know, in recording several of these podcasts, it's the theme I'm starting here is like we can't just deliver more content, we gotta make sure it's good content, it's the right content in the right time and right place, and it's we're doing these practices to help people.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:35.519
So, with that said, of course, we like to make sure that you're getting the best opportunities that you can to continue to learn, and we encourage you to level up every single day.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:36.640
Thanks, everybody.
