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Syndicated source material.
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We get into fourteen here, there's a lot of things
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that happen in here's hashtag fight Carnage, but fight Carnage,
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Fight Carnage, Fight Carnage, Prince repeat.
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However, I should also say this is the fact that
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most of the fighting is like localized towards Venom and
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Carnas specifically helps make it less obnoxious, and Venom has
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some really funny one liners in this last issue. Carnage
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is weakened by the by the Happy Gun and he's
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out of swords and not really thinking straight for him.
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So the most of this issue is just Venom beating
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seven shades of ship out of Carnage, and it's bossome
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up to this point because you haven't really seen that
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up until this point. So it's payback time.
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That's true. And we got ron Limb. By the way,
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Ron Limb is back, baby, beautiful art in the fight scene,
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just some stuff that I was like, yes, this looks awesome.
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He covered it pretty much because it's just pounding on
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Carnage and Carnage going back at it, Spider Man is
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trying to stop Venom from killing Carnage. He clearly has
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the opportunity to do so a few times. We get
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Ribs Part two and here too, where Venom gets pissed
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off and hits Spider Man on the other.
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Side of his chest, poor Ribs Man.
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In the midst of the fight, Spider Man gets nailed
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on the other side, and I think Spider Man's fighting
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is like, damn it, I gotta go and get this
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checked out, because I think at some point blacks out
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wakes back up. It's only a couple it's only a
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couple of minutes. Supporting the comics, He's all right, I'm done.
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I'm going to go get checked out. I want to
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go to the hospital because I need to fix myself.
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Continue to go on. While Venom is chasing after Carnage,
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Spider Man makes his way to the hospital, gets his
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ribs bandaged up, and we have a resolution here between
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Mary Jane. I don't think it happens yet, but he's
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talking to her like, look, we've got Carnage is still
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out there, and Mary Jane, throughout this whole series, you're
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supposed to take two weeks off with me. She's obviously
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torn about the fact that she has a superhero for
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a husband, and she doesn't like it. I don't think
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at all. And of course Peter's got his sense of
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responsibility to go up there and take care of them,
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so we get a little bit of that going on.
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When you're reading carnag Just ask why he's doing something
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I've rented as the whather they put and he thought
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into that. I don't know, but Carnage goes back to
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Riker's Island in here. I have no idea why Carnage
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is not right in the head. I guess that's the
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point he's hung back throughout his past.
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Yeah, something along the lines of he's escaping into his
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past in a vain attempt to escape from Venom. The
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blast he got from the Happy Gun affected him a
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lot more than he thought. He's all over the place now,
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which makes him even crazier and probably more dangerous than ever.
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If he crashes his old sell at Rikers, Venom is
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right on his ass tracking him down. They fight really
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quick there, and they're out of there just as quickly
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as they got there. They're basically just kicking the crap
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out of each other across the entire city while Spider
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Man's getting his stuff together and getting ready to go
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after both of them.
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Yeah, Pete talks to his dad and we have a
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bit of a I almost want to say reconcile as
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Pete gets to confront him and say, hey, look this
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is this is what I've just been through, and you're
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your your advice in regards to monsters, because there's a
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point I know. I'm pretty certain we covered it on
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the previous episode where Richard tells Peter that there's nothing
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but monsters out there, and in order to see the
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monsters sometimes he has to become a monster. I think
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that's what he was saying. But Pete explains is that, hey,
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look that's not how this works. I'm pretty much signing
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with his aunt May's philosophy of things that she had
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touched on on the ones in books. But there's hope,
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there's love, and with that you don't have to become
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a monster in order to see more. Now, let me
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ask you something here, Benjamin. As he's confirming his dad
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and he's telling him about that. As Pete's walking away,
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is his dad's fist clenched? Is he still pissed off
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or something?
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No, I was afraid you were gonna ask me about this.
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I didn't know what was going on here. I didn't
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know if there was something that I was.
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Dude, we only have so much time left, and I
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don't know how much I want to get into this
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about Peter's parents and the whole thing. I'll just say
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Tim DeFalco was the writer on this particular comic. Falco
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was also the editor in chief of Marvel Comics at
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the time, so he was probably one of the only
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people who knew, you wear the entire subplot with Peter
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Parker's parents was ultimately going. That was a setup for
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what was to come later on in the pages of
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Amazing Spider Man. When it was David Michelini's last story
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that he wrote, it was at that point the whole
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resolution and the end game with Peter Parker's parents. I
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had just read about this recently. That whole resolution and
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where it was all going was actually taken away from
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him at the last minute. The ending that he wrote
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was probably not the one he would have wanted to write.
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And I know what it is, and I'll talk to
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you about it later if anybody wants to check it out.
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It's a story called Life Theft and Amazing Spider Man.
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But let's just say it's not good. It makes no sense,
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and it was probably the most ridiculous way they could
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have gone with this whole thing with Peter's parents. There's
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a deep, dark secret that's being kept and that's why
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Peter says, you have to be on it with each other,
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and then Hender's Bread says, yes, we do. There's something
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to that. It's a really bad story. If you decide
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you want to cover it on this show sometime it's
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your funeral. But trust me, if I had to explain
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what was going on with Peter's parents and what happens
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in life, that, if we'd be here for probably longer
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than the time that we have. So it's probably just
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as well that I cut it off there. Their resolution
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was not what it was built up to be. It
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was built up for about two years and it wasn't
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worth it. So I'll just leave it at that.
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All right. So this is the two parts issue where
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they do chapter fourteen, Part one and part two, and
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the end of part one, Spider Man gets a blessing
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from his wife. She's not saying, oh, yeah, go out
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there and do it. She's still telling them I worry
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about you, but she does say that she's going to
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try her best to accept what their situations, the fact
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that Peter Parker is a superhero and he's putting his
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life online. As a husband, I can tell you worry
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about my wife coming home. She works like six miles away,
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so it's not very far. But I still worry about
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Kurt coming home. She definitely is not out fighting crime,
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so I can identify as far.
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As you know, it's true.
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That's very true. He reinvigorated with the blessing from his hand,
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the taping of his ribs. Spider Man's off to find
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Venom and Carnage and stop this man. Figure out what
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we can do to find a resolution of this, and
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Venom and Carnage fighting again, and in another prominent setting
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in Carnage's past, cleve as Castile's pass they go. He
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goes back to the Orkhanage and we have a battle there.
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Spider Man is able to intervene once again stop Venom
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from potentially killing Carnage, and it's Venom and Spider Man
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getting into a fight. We got a three way dance, folks,
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ecw chance all the way. However, Carnage gets that basically
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rolls out of the ring and heads the back he's
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out in the midst of these two fighting can leaves
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and they're like, where's he at? And they're gonna try
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and tail Carnage. They find him in a cemetery and
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what could we were just talking about it, He's going
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back through his past. Now, what the hell's at the
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cemetery that I could potentially hold a key to Carnag's past. Well,
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it's it's Carnese's dead mother. And it's not like he's
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just sitting at a grave, kneeling down and saying, oh man,
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things were great. No, Carnage is digging up his mom's coffin,
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and that just speaks to the madness of Carnage. Venom
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and Spider Man find him there and him to subdue Carnage.
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We get him battle.
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Another great Venom line, by the way, but an issue
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that's full In an issue that's full of them, where
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Carnage says we demand a little privacy here, Venom says
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he'll get it. Will bury you both in the same coffin.
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Oh yeah, I love having cracking up in this issue.
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One of the things that maybe if if you've got
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a short answer, grade if it gets a long answer,
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you can just tell me offline. But Venom is always
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we we we okay, And I'm not someding to be
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French here. If we will do this, we will do that.
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Carnis is not like that. Carnes is definitely O. So
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supposedly the Venoms be it fothered the Carnes. Is there
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something that happened in Carnage's past that that or something
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that happened when it montited the Carnage and allowed it
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to be I off for Carnage.
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That I'm aware of. No, if I had to guess,
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it's just the writer for good. Honestly. He Carnage at
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first refers to himself in the Symbia is we a
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couple of times in the first story, but that's about it,
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he says I more. The animated series actually tried to
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come up with a half assed explanation for why that is,
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Like it was a one line, one line of internal Yeah,
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it was like one line of internal monologue the Spider
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Man that said that Cassidy had bonded more completely with
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the Symbia than Venom did, and that's why he refers
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to himself as I instead of we and playing Well,
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that's an explanation that's an explanation.
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I would belan that if I was the tract, based
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on what I've read, I would assume this is something
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to do with Pleatus's mindset, but again, it could be
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more of a bonding. Venom is going to kill Carnage
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and Spider Man steps in between. That is a common
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theme throughout these issues. As a kid in the nineties,
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it was all about the punishment. I love that sense
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of justice being served in the Marvel universe, and Venom
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took it to a whole new level. When Venom first
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was around, he was a villain. Then he became a
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vigilante and fought for the innocence supposed and he had
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that harsh sense of justice, just like the Punisher did.
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Spider Man throughout this whole thing, struggled with that, and
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then finally at this issue he's resolved, Hey, look, can't
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do it. Cannot kill this guy. Finally he starts to
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make a case for Cassidy to be the victim, and
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we saw a little bit of this history, how he
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was mistreated at the doors, abused, how he was bullied.
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He does this. There's a full page of Spider Man
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getting in between Venom and Carnes separating him, and he
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tries to make it. He almost convinces Venom too that
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he that Cassidy is a victim. As he's in the
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middle of trying to make this case, Carnage grabs him
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from behind. Is about the about to kill the guy
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about to kill Carnes, is about to kill Spider Man Justice.
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He's about to deliver the death blow someone recovering on
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the side of Spider Man. The Black Cat makes her
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reappearance in this issue and able to stop Carnage from
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potentially killing Spider.
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What is keeping that costume on?
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I came this close to making putting that as a
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part of my intro today because I'm I'm like, man,
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there are some tape involved. That's all I can say.
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Has to be some tape. Black Cats end on this now,
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Venom and Carnage going at it, and Spider Man is
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trying to get in between him. Venom tackles Carnage and
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they're flying into some generators. As Black Cat and Spider
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Man get over there to try and see what's there's
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a huge explosion. See what's left of these two? Eddie
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brock Clitus, Cassid Venom, Carnage, playing on the ground. Is Cletus,
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no sign of them and no sign of Venom. At
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the end of this battle, cleis Cassidy is rendered incapacitated,
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Venom's gone. They call the Avengers in, throw throw Cassidy
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on a gurney, and they're say they're going to take
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care of him, put them in stasis. And the background
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lies to Coffin that Carnage had in his possession, and
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it's open and empty. And that's the end of our issue. Now,
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what are your thoughts on on the whole Spider Man
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trying to make Carnage out to be a.
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Victim on the sappy side, I don't know if he
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would have had quite as much sympathy for somebody who
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he knows is that bad. But I think he's trying
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anything he can to get Venom to stop and not
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outright kill him. Ultimately, Spider Man in the Peter Parker
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just doesn't want anybody to die. So maybe that's it,
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and he, like you said, it works like because Venom
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does have pause for thought, despite the fact that he's
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beating the living hell out of Car and is now
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he's beating the living hell out of him, and instead
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of taunting him. He's asking him, are you an object
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of hatred or pity? Are you worthy of vengeance or protection?
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So he's thinking about it, but he's probably still gonna
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kill him.
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Yeah, that's because it felt like I hate him. He's
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making it excuse, but he almost convinced that Cassidy may
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be the victim here. If I was in that position,
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I cannot give Cassidy a pass. I don't think he
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should be killed. It's a tough decision. I think that's
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where the message comes from, that these writers are trying
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to get across amidst all this chaos and all these
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cameo appearances.
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I think ultimately the discussion was more important than who
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is actually right or wrong. That's how I look at it.
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I think it's more important to talk about that sort
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of thing and to maybe think about it and to
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have those ideas come up, because the comics can do that.
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Comics are good for raising ideas. You don't have to
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necessarily come to a conclusion, but it's enough to just
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think about it for a second and consider this or that.
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People get too caught up but sometimes and trying to
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be right and don't spend enough time thinking about well,
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what's what's what's every side of this argument that I'm
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so quick to jump to one conclusion about.
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I heard so final thoughts here. I want to ask
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you a few questions. Maximum carnage, Where do you believe
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it suffers?
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Where do I believe it suffers? Just the fact that
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it's not consistent. There are good ideas in here. There's
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a good story in here, somewhere, there's actually a very
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good story in here somewhere to be told. But it
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just got lost in a lot of other things that
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were probably out of the control of the writers. It
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was a lot of good concepts got stretched out into
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oblivion until they didn't matter anymore. It was all about
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characters punching each other. And I got nothing against characters
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and comics punching each other. That's what I grew up on,
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and that has its place. But in any fiction, in
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comics and movies, TV novels, if there's gonna be action,
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or if there's gonna be violence, or if there's gonna
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be death, give me a reason of care, give me
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something to hold on to. As far as why does
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this matter that this is happening? And there wasn't enough
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of that in this comic until towards the end, when
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characters started having motivation, you started being made to think
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more about why this is all happening and what are
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the consequences. And that's another thing about this comic is
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that consequences don't seem to be very far reaching from
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one issue to the next. It's a lot of pointless fighting,
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and some of that was commentary, some of that was
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on purpose, and some of it was just patting.
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I echoed writing sentiments. It's pretty clear that is one
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of the things that they're all backs. That definitely feels
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money driven. I don't like seeing fourteen parts just so
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you could sell the other titles of your series. All right, now,
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what do you believe Maximum Carness does well?
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This was an attempt to hold up a lot of
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old school philosophies in terms of comics and in terms
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of what is a hero all about? And you sort
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of when I've had this discussion with friends of mine before,
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and I've heard other friends discuss it amongst themselves. There's
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a lot of talk about heroes that act like heroes
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quote unquote. I don't entirely buy into the idea that
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a hero is only supposed to act one way, or
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that a hero is this and nothing else. There's no
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room for any in between. I think Spider Man as
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a character proves that hero is not necessarily always what
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you think they are, as long as they're true. Spider
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Man's in this comic. It's conveyed in a pretty inconsistent
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and not always a good way, but the idea behind
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it is that he's true to himself. Otherwise he's not
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who he is. This is who I am, and if
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I went against that, if I decided not to hold
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up these values that I built my whole life on,
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it wouldn't be me. And I've got to be me,
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and I appreciate that. A lot people say the same thing,
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the argument about, like is Superman an out of date
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character or what these characters would be like in real life?
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I think there's room for all of it. I think
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there's room for characters like Superman who are paragons of virtue,
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and guys like Spider Man who are regular guys with
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superpowers trying to do good, and characters even like Daredevil
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and The Punisher, who would do violent, harsh things for
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ostensibly a good reason. I think there's room and comics
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for all of these things, just like there's room in
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any other fiction. I don't think you necessarily have to
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have only one and not any others. So I appreciate
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that a lot of different sides of that were presented here.
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And definitely it was a commentary on comics in the
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nineties and how one side it had gotten as far
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as the ultra violence and as far as getting away
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from a lot of the stuff that Marvel and the
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superhero comics were built on. They didn't always do it well,
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but when they did it well, I think it made
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you think, and I appreciated that.
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Okay, some good stuff. I won't get two in depths
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on this one. It did well. An awesome video game
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came out. I did enjoy it. I enjoyed it as
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a read. It's definitely part of Spider Man history that
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I had always been aware of and never had the opportunities.
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You'd like to learn a little bit about carnage, you
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want to watch them mostly fight it out and these issues,
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you might be able to see at least a significant
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chunk of his history from back in the nineties. One
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of the biggest storylines that he was ever in, and
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he was pretty impactful as a character. One more question, Benjamin,
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and I'll let you get the plugs here. Do you
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have a favorite artist out of these issues that we
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ran four or five?
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Yeah, it was four to go along with the four
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different writers.
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Who was your favorite artist that drew Carnage?
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It was Bagley? It was Mark Bagley. But then again,
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Mark Bagan was one of my favorite Spider Man artists ever,
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and like I said, he designed Carnage in the first place.
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So his Carnage, I think it is naturally gonna look really,
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really good and dynamic because he's the one that's gonna
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know him better than anybody. But yeah, that's an easy
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one for me to answer. I don't want to put
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too much of a damper on this entire show, in
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this entire fourteen part story, but I had to mention this,
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and I don't remember if I brought it up at all.
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Previously speaking of Mark Bagley and also speaking of J. M. Damitayas,
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there is a Spider Man and Batman cross over comic
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written by jam Demontais and drawn by Mark Bagley. It
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features Carnage and a joker. It's pretty good. You might
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consider covering it on this show, but I'm gonna have
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to spoil it now to make my point. It took
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fourteen parts of this story to bring down Carnage in
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Spider Man Batman. Batman hands Carnage his ass in three pages. Man,
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what's a better told story because it's shorter, and it's
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a single writer and a good artist. And Baggie draws
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a really good a really good Batman, and a really
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good Joker too, So there's that too to get out there.
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That's awful.
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It was good to revisit this. I was a lot
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harsher on this comic before preparing for this show than
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I was on This is the third time that I've
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read it all the way through. I'm able to see
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the good in it. There's plenty of bad, but the
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good stuff is worth holding up. It's an interesting point
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in Spider Man history, not necessarily good or bad, but
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certainly interesting. It ends on hope, which is important. The
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whole story ends on hope, so that's got to count
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for something.
1
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Syndicated source material.
2
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We get into fourteen here, there's a lot of things
3
00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:15.720
that happen in here's hashtag fight Carnage, but fight Carnage,
4
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Fight Carnage, Fight Carnage, Prince repeat.
5
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However, I should also say this is the fact that
6
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most of the fighting is like localized towards Venom and
7
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Carnas specifically helps make it less obnoxious, and Venom has
8
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some really funny one liners in this last issue. Carnage
9
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is weakened by the by the Happy Gun and he's
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out of swords and not really thinking straight for him.
11
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So the most of this issue is just Venom beating
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seven shades of ship out of Carnage, and it's bossome
13
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up to this point because you haven't really seen that
14
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.560
up until this point. So it's payback time.
15
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That's true. And we got ron Limb. By the way,
16
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Ron Limb is back, baby, beautiful art in the fight scene,
17
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just some stuff that I was like, yes, this looks awesome.
18
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He covered it pretty much because it's just pounding on
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Carnage and Carnage going back at it, Spider Man is
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trying to stop Venom from killing Carnage. He clearly has
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the opportunity to do so a few times. We get
22
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Ribs Part two and here too, where Venom gets pissed
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off and hits Spider Man on the other.
24
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Side of his chest, poor Ribs Man.
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In the midst of the fight, Spider Man gets nailed
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on the other side, and I think Spider Man's fighting
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is like, damn it, I gotta go and get this
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checked out, because I think at some point blacks out
29
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wakes back up. It's only a couple it's only a
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couple of minutes. Supporting the comics, He's all right, I'm done.
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I'm going to go get checked out. I want to
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go to the hospital because I need to fix myself.
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Continue to go on. While Venom is chasing after Carnage,
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Spider Man makes his way to the hospital, gets his
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ribs bandaged up, and we have a resolution here between
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Mary Jane. I don't think it happens yet, but he's
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talking to her like, look, we've got Carnage is still
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out there, and Mary Jane, throughout this whole series, you're
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supposed to take two weeks off with me. She's obviously
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torn about the fact that she has a superhero for
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a husband, and she doesn't like it. I don't think
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at all. And of course Peter's got his sense of
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responsibility to go up there and take care of them,
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so we get a little bit of that going on.
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When you're reading carnag Just ask why he's doing something
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I've rented as the whather they put and he thought
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into that. I don't know, but Carnage goes back to
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Riker's Island in here. I have no idea why Carnage
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is not right in the head. I guess that's the
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point he's hung back throughout his past.
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Yeah, something along the lines of he's escaping into his
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past in a vain attempt to escape from Venom. The
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blast he got from the Happy Gun affected him a
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lot more than he thought. He's all over the place now,
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which makes him even crazier and probably more dangerous than ever.
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If he crashes his old sell at Rikers, Venom is
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right on his ass tracking him down. They fight really
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quick there, and they're out of there just as quickly
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as they got there. They're basically just kicking the crap
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out of each other across the entire city while Spider
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Man's getting his stuff together and getting ready to go
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after both of them.
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Yeah, Pete talks to his dad and we have a
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bit of a I almost want to say reconcile as
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Pete gets to confront him and say, hey, look this
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is this is what I've just been through, and you're
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your your advice in regards to monsters, because there's a
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point I know. I'm pretty certain we covered it on
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the previous episode where Richard tells Peter that there's nothing
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but monsters out there, and in order to see the
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monsters sometimes he has to become a monster. I think
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that's what he was saying. But Pete explains is that, hey,
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look that's not how this works. I'm pretty much signing
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with his aunt May's philosophy of things that she had
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touched on on the ones in books. But there's hope,
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there's love, and with that you don't have to become
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a monster in order to see more. Now, let me
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ask you something here, Benjamin. As he's confirming his dad
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and he's telling him about that. As Pete's walking away,
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is his dad's fist clenched? Is he still pissed off
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or something?
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No, I was afraid you were gonna ask me about this.
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I didn't know what was going on here. I didn't
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know if there was something that I was.
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Dude, we only have so much time left, and I
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don't know how much I want to get into this
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about Peter's parents and the whole thing. I'll just say
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Tim DeFalco was the writer on this particular comic. Falco
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was also the editor in chief of Marvel Comics at
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the time, so he was probably one of the only
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people who knew, you wear the entire subplot with Peter
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Parker's parents was ultimately going. That was a setup for
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what was to come later on in the pages of
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Amazing Spider Man. When it was David Michelini's last story
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that he wrote, it was at that point the whole
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resolution and the end game with Peter Parker's parents. I
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had just read about this recently. That whole resolution and
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where it was all going was actually taken away from
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him at the last minute. The ending that he wrote
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was probably not the one he would have wanted to write.
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And I know what it is, and I'll talk to
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you about it later if anybody wants to check it out.
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It's a story called Life Theft and Amazing Spider Man.
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But let's just say it's not good. It makes no sense,
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and it was probably the most ridiculous way they could
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have gone with this whole thing with Peter's parents. There's
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a deep, dark secret that's being kept and that's why
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Peter says, you have to be on it with each other,
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and then Hender's Bread says, yes, we do. There's something
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to that. It's a really bad story. If you decide
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you want to cover it on this show sometime it's
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your funeral. But trust me, if I had to explain
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what was going on with Peter's parents and what happens
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in life, that, if we'd be here for probably longer
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than the time that we have. So it's probably just
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as well that I cut it off there. Their resolution
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was not what it was built up to be. It
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was built up for about two years and it wasn't
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worth it. So I'll just leave it at that.
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All right. So this is the two parts issue where
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they do chapter fourteen, Part one and part two, and
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the end of part one, Spider Man gets a blessing
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from his wife. She's not saying, oh, yeah, go out
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there and do it. She's still telling them I worry
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about you, but she does say that she's going to
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try her best to accept what their situations, the fact
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that Peter Parker is a superhero and he's putting his
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life online. As a husband, I can tell you worry
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about my wife coming home. She works like six miles away,
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so it's not very far. But I still worry about
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Kurt coming home. She definitely is not out fighting crime,
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so I can identify as far.
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As you know, it's true.
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That's very true. He reinvigorated with the blessing from his hand,
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the taping of his ribs. Spider Man's off to find
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Venom and Carnage and stop this man. Figure out what
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we can do to find a resolution of this, and
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Venom and Carnage fighting again, and in another prominent setting
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in Carnage's past, cleve as Castile's pass they go. He
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goes back to the Orkhanage and we have a battle there.
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Spider Man is able to intervene once again stop Venom
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from potentially killing Carnage, and it's Venom and Spider Man
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getting into a fight. We got a three way dance, folks,
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ecw chance all the way. However, Carnage gets that basically
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rolls out of the ring and heads the back he's
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out in the midst of these two fighting can leaves
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and they're like, where's he at? And they're gonna try
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and tail Carnage. They find him in a cemetery and
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what could we were just talking about it, He's going
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back through his past. Now, what the hell's at the
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cemetery that I could potentially hold a key to Carnag's past. Well,
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it's it's Carnese's dead mother. And it's not like he's
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just sitting at a grave, kneeling down and saying, oh man,
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things were great. No, Carnage is digging up his mom's coffin,
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and that just speaks to the madness of Carnage. Venom
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and Spider Man find him there and him to subdue Carnage.
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We get him battle.
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Another great Venom line, by the way, but an issue
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that's full In an issue that's full of them, where
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Carnage says we demand a little privacy here, Venom says
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he'll get it. Will bury you both in the same coffin.
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Oh yeah, I love having cracking up in this issue.
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One of the things that maybe if if you've got
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a short answer, grade if it gets a long answer,
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you can just tell me offline. But Venom is always
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we we we okay, And I'm not someding to be
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French here. If we will do this, we will do that.
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Carnis is not like that. Carnes is definitely O. So
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supposedly the Venoms be it fothered the Carnes. Is there
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something that happened in Carnage's past that that or something
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that happened when it montited the Carnage and allowed it
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to be I off for Carnage.
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That I'm aware of. No, if I had to guess,
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it's just the writer for good. Honestly. He Carnage at
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first refers to himself in the Symbia is we a
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couple of times in the first story, but that's about it,
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he says I more. The animated series actually tried to
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come up with a half assed explanation for why that is,
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Like it was a one line, one line of internal Yeah,
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it was like one line of internal monologue the Spider
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Man that said that Cassidy had bonded more completely with
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the Symbia than Venom did, and that's why he refers
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to himself as I instead of we and playing Well,
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that's an explanation that's an explanation.
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I would belan that if I was the tract, based
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on what I've read, I would assume this is something
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to do with Pleatus's mindset, but again, it could be
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more of a bonding. Venom is going to kill Carnage
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and Spider Man steps in between. That is a common
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theme throughout these issues. As a kid in the nineties,
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it was all about the punishment. I love that sense
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of justice being served in the Marvel universe, and Venom
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took it to a whole new level. When Venom first
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was around, he was a villain. Then he became a
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vigilante and fought for the innocence supposed and he had
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that harsh sense of justice, just like the Punisher did.
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Spider Man throughout this whole thing, struggled with that, and
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then finally at this issue he's resolved, Hey, look, can't
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do it. Cannot kill this guy. Finally he starts to
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make a case for Cassidy to be the victim, and
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we saw a little bit of this history, how he
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was mistreated at the doors, abused, how he was bullied.
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He does this. There's a full page of Spider Man
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getting in between Venom and Carnes separating him, and he
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tries to make it. He almost convinces Venom too that
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he that Cassidy is a victim. As he's in the
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middle of trying to make this case, Carnage grabs him
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from behind. Is about the about to kill the guy
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about to kill Carnes, is about to kill Spider Man Justice.
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He's about to deliver the death blow someone recovering on
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the side of Spider Man. The Black Cat makes her
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reappearance in this issue and able to stop Carnage from
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potentially killing Spider.
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What is keeping that costume on?
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I came this close to making putting that as a
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part of my intro today because I'm I'm like, man,
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there are some tape involved. That's all I can say.
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Has to be some tape. Black Cats end on this now,
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Venom and Carnage going at it, and Spider Man is
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trying to get in between him. Venom tackles Carnage and
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they're flying into some generators. As Black Cat and Spider
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Man get over there to try and see what's there's
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a huge explosion. See what's left of these two? Eddie
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brock Clitus, Cassid Venom, Carnage, playing on the ground. Is Cletus,
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no sign of them and no sign of Venom. At
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the end of this battle, cleis Cassidy is rendered incapacitated,
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Venom's gone. They call the Avengers in, throw throw Cassidy
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on a gurney, and they're say they're going to take
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care of him, put them in stasis. And the background
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lies to Coffin that Carnage had in his possession, and
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it's open and empty. And that's the end of our issue. Now,
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what are your thoughts on on the whole Spider Man
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trying to make Carnage out to be a.
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Victim on the sappy side, I don't know if he
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would have had quite as much sympathy for somebody who
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he knows is that bad. But I think he's trying
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anything he can to get Venom to stop and not
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outright kill him. Ultimately, Spider Man in the Peter Parker
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just doesn't want anybody to die. So maybe that's it,
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and he, like you said, it works like because Venom
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does have pause for thought, despite the fact that he's
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beating the living hell out of Car and is now
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he's beating the living hell out of him, and instead
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of taunting him. He's asking him, are you an object
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of hatred or pity? Are you worthy of vengeance or protection?
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So he's thinking about it, but he's probably still gonna
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kill him.
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Yeah, that's because it felt like I hate him. He's
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making it excuse, but he almost convinced that Cassidy may
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be the victim here. If I was in that position,
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I cannot give Cassidy a pass. I don't think he
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should be killed. It's a tough decision. I think that's
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where the message comes from, that these writers are trying
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to get across amidst all this chaos and all these
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cameo appearances.
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I think ultimately the discussion was more important than who
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is actually right or wrong. That's how I look at it.
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I think it's more important to talk about that sort
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of thing and to maybe think about it and to
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have those ideas come up, because the comics can do that.
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Comics are good for raising ideas. You don't have to
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necessarily come to a conclusion, but it's enough to just
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think about it for a second and consider this or that.
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People get too caught up but sometimes and trying to
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be right and don't spend enough time thinking about well,
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what's what's what's every side of this argument that I'm
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so quick to jump to one conclusion about.
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I heard so final thoughts here. I want to ask
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you a few questions. Maximum carnage, Where do you believe
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it suffers?
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Where do I believe it suffers? Just the fact that
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it's not consistent. There are good ideas in here. There's
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a good story in here, somewhere, there's actually a very
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good story in here somewhere to be told. But it
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just got lost in a lot of other things that
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were probably out of the control of the writers. It
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was a lot of good concepts got stretched out into
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oblivion until they didn't matter anymore. It was all about
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characters punching each other. And I got nothing against characters
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and comics punching each other. That's what I grew up on,
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and that has its place. But in any fiction, in
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comics and movies, TV novels, if there's gonna be action,
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or if there's gonna be violence, or if there's gonna
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be death, give me a reason of care, give me
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something to hold on to. As far as why does
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this matter that this is happening? And there wasn't enough
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of that in this comic until towards the end, when
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characters started having motivation, you started being made to think
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more about why this is all happening and what are
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the consequences. And that's another thing about this comic is
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that consequences don't seem to be very far reaching from
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one issue to the next. It's a lot of pointless fighting,
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and some of that was commentary, some of that was
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on purpose, and some of it was just patting.
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I echoed writing sentiments. It's pretty clear that is one
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of the things that they're all backs. That definitely feels
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money driven. I don't like seeing fourteen parts just so
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you could sell the other titles of your series. All right, now,
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what do you believe Maximum Carness does well?
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This was an attempt to hold up a lot of
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old school philosophies in terms of comics and in terms
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of what is a hero all about? And you sort
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of when I've had this discussion with friends of mine before,
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and I've heard other friends discuss it amongst themselves. There's
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a lot of talk about heroes that act like heroes
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quote unquote. I don't entirely buy into the idea that
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a hero is only supposed to act one way, or
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that a hero is this and nothing else. There's no
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room for any in between. I think Spider Man as
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a character proves that hero is not necessarily always what
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you think they are, as long as they're true. Spider
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Man's in this comic. It's conveyed in a pretty inconsistent
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and not always a good way, but the idea behind
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it is that he's true to himself. Otherwise he's not
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who he is. This is who I am, and if
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I went against that, if I decided not to hold
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up these values that I built my whole life on,
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it wouldn't be me. And I've got to be me,
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and I appreciate that. A lot people say the same thing,
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the argument about, like is Superman an out of date
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character or what these characters would be like in real life?
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I think there's room for all of it. I think
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there's room for characters like Superman who are paragons of virtue,
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and guys like Spider Man who are regular guys with
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superpowers trying to do good, and characters even like Daredevil
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and The Punisher, who would do violent, harsh things for
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ostensibly a good reason. I think there's room and comics
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for all of these things, just like there's room in
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any other fiction. I don't think you necessarily have to
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have only one and not any others. So I appreciate
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that a lot of different sides of that were presented here.
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And definitely it was a commentary on comics in the
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nineties and how one side it had gotten as far
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as the ultra violence and as far as getting away
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from a lot of the stuff that Marvel and the
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superhero comics were built on. They didn't always do it well,
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but when they did it well, I think it made
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you think, and I appreciated that.
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Okay, some good stuff. I won't get two in depths
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on this one. It did well. An awesome video game
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came out. I did enjoy it. I enjoyed it as
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a read. It's definitely part of Spider Man history that
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I had always been aware of and never had the opportunities.
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You'd like to learn a little bit about carnage, you
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want to watch them mostly fight it out and these issues,
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you might be able to see at least a significant
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chunk of his history from back in the nineties. One
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of the biggest storylines that he was ever in, and
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he was pretty impactful as a character. One more question, Benjamin,
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and I'll let you get the plugs here. Do you
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have a favorite artist out of these issues that we
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ran four or five?
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Yeah, it was four to go along with the four
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different writers.
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Who was your favorite artist that drew Carnage?
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It was Bagley? It was Mark Bagley. But then again,
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Mark Bagan was one of my favorite Spider Man artists ever,
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and like I said, he designed Carnage in the first place.
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So his Carnage, I think it is naturally gonna look really,
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really good and dynamic because he's the one that's gonna
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know him better than anybody. But yeah, that's an easy
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one for me to answer. I don't want to put
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too much of a damper on this entire show, in
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this entire fourteen part story, but I had to mention this,
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and I don't remember if I brought it up at all.
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Previously speaking of Mark Bagley and also speaking of J. M. Damitayas,
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there is a Spider Man and Batman cross over comic
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written by jam Demontais and drawn by Mark Bagley. It
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features Carnage and a joker. It's pretty good. You might
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consider covering it on this show, but I'm gonna have
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to spoil it now to make my point. It took
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fourteen parts of this story to bring down Carnage in
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Spider Man Batman. Batman hands Carnage his ass in three pages. Man,
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what's a better told story because it's shorter, and it's
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a single writer and a good artist. And Baggie draws
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a really good a really good Batman, and a really
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good Joker too, So there's that too to get out there.
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That's awful.
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It was good to revisit this. I was a lot
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harsher on this comic before preparing for this show than
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I was on This is the third time that I've
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read it all the way through. I'm able to see
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the good in it. There's plenty of bad, but the
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good stuff is worth holding up. It's an interesting point
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in Spider Man history, not necessarily good or bad, but
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certainly interesting. It ends on hope, which is important. The
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whole story ends on hope, so that's got to count
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for something.
