Making Bitcoin Quantum-Proof with Hunter Beast | BIS #187

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Hunter, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.
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Good to see you, Gennett.
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Yeah, good to see you too. We had some long, interesting conversations in San Salvador just after adopting Bitcoin.
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I know I was done with all of my talks and all my interviews and all of the other stuff I had done, both historical and adopting.
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and then I finally got the chance to relax a bit
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and that's when the real deep, interesting Bitcoin conversations happen.
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And you were part of some of that.
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I mean, I can't remember half of it, but maybe we should...
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Yeah, what did we talk about in San Salvador? Do you remember?
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Yeah, we talked about it a lot.
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I especially remember when we spoke with Giacomo
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And we talked about the topic of arbitrary data on Bitcoin, also known as spam.
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That really kind of set a few gears in motion in my head, just kind of thinking, you know, like, what is the real impact of spam?
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Like, you know, is it really like a violation of the non-aggression principle?
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And if so, how much and what is the because here's the thing, like I got into Bitcoin not because I want to put JPEGs on a blockchain.
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Right. Like I get into Bitcoin because I learned about how bad central banking is and how like how much of an impact it has on our society that is not positive.
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And Bitcoin is the best nonviolent way to sort of get rid of that system in an organic and meritocratic way just by simply being better.
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And like, obviously, like there's more to it than just like, oh, this is the best thing.
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Like, because like if it was, then we'd all be using it already.
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Right.
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But there's a lot of a lot of problems with Bitcoin that, you know, still need solutions
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like privacy and scalability and things like that.
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But it is certainly good enough to replace all the money that we use today.
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It is the best money we have.
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And I would never want to jeopardize that through my own actions or encouraging like,
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you know, irresponsible behavior. I mean, like, here's the thing in a polite society, like we,
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we, we actually, there are a lot of things we don't do, or at least we discourage, we criminalize,
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we penalize, we, we say like, and, you know, and as, as, as libertarians or, or, or cypherpunks or,
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or, or however you want to call yourself as somebody who rejects the state, we often say
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that we don't need to be coerced or have a threat of force in order to do in order just to do the
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right thing. Additionally, we frown on things like that, that discount the future heavily,
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such as for lack of a better way of putting it, there seems to be some sort of like,
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weird, dark, I feel like we're really getting to it like immediately right, right into the podcast.
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But this is, but we know each other, we've had this conversation.
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No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. I think our listeners want the deep stuff instantly.
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Well, the thing is, like, I'm starting to become aware as just somebody who's not very religious.
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I do think that there is a sort of spiritual war going on that sort of like, you know, there's some dark stuff happening.
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I don't know if you've seen anything related to like Moloch worship or child sacrifice or just how that discounts the future heavily by essentially exploiting those who can defend themselves the least.
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No, those are weird. I haven't looked into it, but it sort of makes sense that in ancient times you would sacrifice something vulnerable. Like so many other things, it's humans not understanding cause and effect properly.
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And we reiterate the truth.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, you do something because you believe that it will – you use some means to try to reach an end of less uneasiness.
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And I think Aztecs, who sacrificed babies on top of pyramids, did so because they wanted to relieve some felt uneasiness, like everything else a human being does.
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It's not stating anything – praxeology itself is not stating whether something is good or bad.
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It's trying to be value free in that sense.
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So it's only saying that, yeah, the person probably did or the person must have done this because they thought that the future would be better for them if they did so.
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That is a very grounded and I would say objective way to see that.
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Yeah, it's an objective way of viewing subjectivity.
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Like, I think it's one conversation with Robert Breedlove, of all people, that he said something that I think, like, put the nail on the head.
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Like, praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective.
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And I think that's a perfect way of putting it.
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It's like the logic of the subjective rather than the logic of the objective.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that makes sense, right?
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Like understanding incentives, first principles, some people call it like values investing or whatever.
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I think I'm not into investing stuff, but the only thing I put my money in is Bitcoin.
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But I don't really consider that investing so much as just saving.
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But yeah, what do you want to talk about?
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No, we were, I mean, I love this rabbit hole.
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And I want to like, I've done several interviews now with people on the core side, people on the not side.
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And I've done my own takes like on other people's shows.
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And regardless of what I do, I get shit for it from the other side.
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So that's, but I love this meta discussion about the whole thing.
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And I love the whole, like you were talking about property rights and property rights violations in terms of spam.
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I'm soon interviewing Kansa, an Australian economist who's great.
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And he's always recommending a book by Conrad Graf, who's another great economist, called Are Bitcoins Ownable?
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And I haven't read the book, but the TLDR of it, as far as I know, is no, they're not ownable.
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Because it's just a string of information.
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So it's not really ownable.
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What is ownable, though, is the hardware you own and the software you run in your home.
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So your node is your property.
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And you have a right to defend that from malicious use.
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So that is the ownable part.
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But the funny thing about Bitcoin is, since it's just remembering a private key or the location of a private key, the pin code, the whatever, 12 magic words,
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It is just a string of information that gives you the ability to act as if you owned the thing because you control it.
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You sort of possess it, but possession is also too strong since its information is by its very nature not ownable.
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It's copyable.
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And even if the secret is where your hardware wallet is located, that information can be copied too.
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So in that sense, it's not ownable by the definition. Ownership is a relationship, a legal relationship between you and your property. And according to natural law, you have the rights to that if you homesteaded it or if you acquired it by unviolent means or what you thought was unviolent means.
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so yeah the thesis and that i think i agree with is that the node is the actual thing you own
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interesting i i don't know about that for a number of reasons uh one is of course you know
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like civil attacks and node vote ip voting right like that's not really like how bitcoin works uh
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the and and also like a private key isn't something that's supposed to be copied by others right or
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known by others like you're supposed to have sole possession of it in like a traditional
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single sick scenario and so uh like if you can keep a secret which is a big if of course um
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in this day and age uh but essentially it's a part of protecting your property is is a secret
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like is something that that you i mean the secret funny thing is that sorry for interrupting but the
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secret is the asset there is no there's nothing separating the secret from the asset like the
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satoshis aren't really on the blockchain or the time chain the digits are there but the ability
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to move them which is the important part is the secret keeping it's all in our heads like that's
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my thesis and that's what i'm like trying to that's the view of this that that makes most sense
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to me i mean i i can't i can't dispute the fact that you know this is all just like a
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a social construct i mean it's it's literally a currency which is also a social construct
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It's predicated on the fact that we can design like better ways to protect custody based on the asymmetry that we get from public key cryptography.
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And so that used to actually be like military grade technology that, you know, that wasn't like commonly available to the individual.
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And so we have people like Daniel J. Bernstein and all the people in the 90s who were fighting for that, the right to encrypt.
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And we're very grateful for that because encryption and signatures and all that stuff is privacy tech.
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That's freedom tech. That's nonviolent resistance.
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It's almost like how you don't necessarily try to train a cat.
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But you can't necessarily instruct a cat what to do or punish them.
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It doesn't make sense to do that.
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You simply have to just prevent them from doing something that you don't want them to
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do.
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And that's...
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Like confiscating sets?
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Like the cat?
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That's the name of the fork, right?
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Yeah.
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You were talking about literal cats.
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It's...
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All of that's really interesting stuff.
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I have a lot to say on that too.
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I mean, like one thing that although I do, I do recognize that there are good arguments against spamming the blockchain and making it harder for people to run nodes.
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And I mean, I think it's very important that we keep the block size small.
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I come from a generation of Bitcoiners that just kind of understood that's the case.
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I've also heard rather convincing arguments that, you know, there might be reason to increase the block size.
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But despite working directly for a big blocker for a year now at Mara as my supervisor, I still will not concede that we need to increase the block size.
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I will not.
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I mean, like we're not going to litigate the block size wars if I have any say in it, other than just saying that we need to find other ways to scale, just as the financial system currently has other ways to scale.
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But the point I want to make about arbitrary data in particular, though, is that I think one of the engineering constraints we need to make sure we have solved is censorship resistance and in particular resistance against state actors.
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And when people bring up statist arguments like, oh, if CSAM or Mohammed is on the chain, then, you know, nation states will reject Bitcoin.
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I'm like, well, or go after node runners or something.
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I'm like, you know what?
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Like Bitcoin is designed to resist the state.
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And so however we need to do it in that we can make Bitcoin exist in a way that they can't interfere with while also allowing us to run whatever software we want in the privacy of our own homes.
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I think that's like the better engineering constraint than necessarily preventing data that some people might find to be objectionable.
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Okay, so I'm going to try to both dissect and devil's advocate that argument for the sake of conversation here.
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So when you say it's a social construct, I would use slightly different words.
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I call it an agreement on a fixed set of rules.
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And the reason we agree on this particular set of rules is that it's the only rule set known to man that is as robust as Bitcoin is, that has the 21 million coin limit, that has the halvings, that has the block intervals, like all of the things that we do agree on in Bitcoin.
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Like most of the parameters aren't mempool policy stuff.
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It actual consensual We have agreed to this and this is how it works So if that is true then code is not law but consensus is law which is what human beings agree upon So the thing enforcing
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the rules is not really proof of work. It's what software people choose to run. And when they run
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certain pieces of software, the proof of work works, but it works because we agree on a specific
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set of making it work, right? So with that out of the way, then the censorship resistance
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is not really in the code, but in what we allow, we as Bitcoiners collectively allow to go through
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the thing. And if we don't, some of us want to let some stuff through and others do not want to let
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some stuff through. That's why we run different mempool policy filters, right? And the different
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filter policies, depending on our own preference on our own node. And some people say this is
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completely inefficient because they will be routed around and it's a network that signals to, it goes
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fast anyway, and you need like 92% at least to have any effect at all. Still, the thing that at
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the end of the day sets the rules and carves the path forward is what we collectively agree upon
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is the limits of the thing. So yeah, I'm struggling to find words a bit here. But I think, for instance,
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this catfork that has been proposed, just the threat of that and the notion that something
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that like that could happen has already decreased the spammers incentive it has already removed some
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of the incentive for doing bad shit because all of a sudden everyone's reminded that holy shit we're
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we're doing something that people people accept but do not approve of like people unwillingly
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accept relaying it but they do not approve of it they they do not endorse it it has a sort of
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moderating influence yeah so so and who knows what happens in the future and this is this is
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like the the meta thing that i'm missing from the whole debate is like it's all about human beings
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and what they choose to do or not do in the end and that's what it is and and then that's why
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there's discussions of whether spam is an actual property rights violation or not and i don't think
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it is. I think it is like, but nor is it a property rights violation for me if I receive
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spam from someone to choose to not relay it to others. Because no one forces me to relay anything.
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No one forces me to run the node. Like none of this would work if that was the case. So in your
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opinion, like where in the greater scheme of things, what secures Bitcoin? Like what makes
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this robust? Well, there's a few factors. It's not necessarily cryptographically secure
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in its own right. It's crypto economically secured. There's, you know, a market, there's
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a value for the energy required to secure it. And so it's definitely more real than proof of stake,
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which is also more vulnerable to like a 34% attack instead of a 51% attack.
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But I mean, what secures Bitcoin is the belief that it's valuable and the people who support
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the protocol and in the various ways that it's designed to be supported and used.
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And that sort of disincentivizes many different kinds of attacks, including civil attacks and
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EDOS and spam of various kinds.
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You know, people would say like fees are the best filter, right?
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Yeah.
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I mean, the real threat in spam is not that spam would be, there would be so much spam
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that it would hinder people from or disincentivize people from actually using Bitcoin as money.
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And therefore it loses its value and therefore every other proposition.
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That would be a huge problem if that was the case.
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So that could be a potential state attack.
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Like if we can just spam this spend, if we can print a billion dollars to spam the network, we can stop it from functioning and thereby people lose interest.
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And then it goes to underground again for a long, long time, hundreds of years.
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Yeah.
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What's ironic is that like state actors don't necessarily think that way, though.
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They think of like markets and manipulating markets.
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They think of being able to print money and make laws.
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they think of just like a bunch of other fake and gay bullshit that they like to do that bitcoin
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just completely sidesteps and they don't really think about like the actual like fundamentals
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necessarily no i don't believe so either like it's this dilemma between is the state this
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is it the deep state and everyone's super smart and these secret agents and evil evil
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villains in their lairs or is the state just fucking stupid yeah like it can't be both of
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lifelong bureaucrat.
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Well, I mean, you kind of can, right?
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Because, like, I mean, in the case of the United States,
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like, there is a deep state, and it's pretty fucking gnarly.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But, yeah, it's probably not at this stage what the people who,
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like, started these institutions up, like, what they envisioned.
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It's not what they are right now.
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The FBI is not.
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Did the founding fathers, like, would they agree with the deep?
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No, no, they would not.
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They would, yeah.
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in fact the deep state is very anti-liberal actually like class yeah if you go back to
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the constitution like they would just shake their heads and say what the fuck are these
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there's a ton of shit that the government does that is completely unconstitutional like even
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even just like laws states make up like they're on constitutional laws the second amendment even
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first amendment there are things that are just like blatantly but there's still laws on the books
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and it's just a reminder that you know the laws of man are made up right like like they're they're
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There there's something that that humans made.
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Humans are flawed.
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And, you know, that we're just not making sense.
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And also, I want to want to get back to you mentioned the cat.
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And, you know, like, although I'm not necessarily supportive of the idea of oracleizing Bitcoin in a way that would like make it ordinals aware or stamps aware, because then you only need one more oracle to make it OFAC aware.
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Right.
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Yeah, but you also need consensus.
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Oh, of course.
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Well, actually, also the cat isn't based on...
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Wait, is that a consensus change?
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Well...
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So like bit.110 or 444 formally,
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that's definitely consensus change.
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That's just more of a policy, a mempool policy change, right?
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And the cat is specifically targeting these things.
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But I want to make a point about the cat.
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And so I agree with you that its very existence and sort of popularity amongst a certain faction of Bitcoiners is a bit of a moderating influence on usage of the protocol broadly.
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It likely has an impact on these markets that, you know, maybe make one Bitcoin a day selling JPEG pictures or something.
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And that's just not a very robust or deep market by any means.
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The thing is, I recently became a backer, like a financial sponsor of Brian Lunduk of the Lunduk Journal.
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he's a he's a like kind of a podcaster journalist who uh so uh i'll call him a citizen journalist
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just because journalism has become such a sullied profession uh almost like disrespected
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regardless uh lunduk i like the guy because he's um even though he he he hates rust he would he
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He like he sees it as like a negative.
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And I've been a Rust developer since 2018.
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I think it's important to push back on the radical leftists who would like to politicize and infiltrate and corrupt open source meritocracy.
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And so like like like open source should be a meritocracy of the of the marketplace of ideas.
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Right. And so things should be based on their merit.
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and not necessarily who introduced them or what they what they believed politically that has no
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bearing really on like kernel drivers. Right. Like it's it's it's it's dumb. And so I'm supportive
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of things that push back on things that corrupt an ideology that that that is counter to what is
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essentially merit based and instead trying to push ideology, which is basically religion,
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Like it's just it's not it's not necessarily like anything founded in truth or objective reality.
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They're trying to push back against it with sort of social consent, sort of like peer pressure.
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Right. And so like it's that I'm supportive of things like that.
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And so I think cat kind of the cat, I mean, is similar, is similar.
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I'm supportive of it. Right.
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I don't necessarily want that to become how Bitcoin works.
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But that said, I support the ideas behind it in at least at a high level.
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Maybe not necessarily the implementation details, but I definitely like resonate with the thinking behind it.
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I also am careful about any kind of change to Bitcoin because, I mean, I don't know about you, but like we live in a in a in a fucking clown world.
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And I have to have to admit, like one of the few things keeping me like grounded, insane and not running for the hills to like join a militia to like fight against the deep state is.
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Yeah, it's Bitcoin is the fact that I can sort of, you know, I have a mission that is nonviolent right now.
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And if that mission becomes compromised, however it may be, you know, I will likely, my future will have a very different outcome, I think, knowing what I know now.
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Yeah, 100%. I mean, yeah, I try not to be a cynic.
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And I guess I tried to be an optimist before Bitcoin too, but it's certainly easier to be optimistic about the future when Bitcoin exists than before it did.
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Yes, exactly.
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Much more so, but the principles it's built upon are still true and it's still existed
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before and will exist after, if there is an after.
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I mean, like laws are man-made, you see, but I love the idea of natural law and libertarian
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thought of, or rather, praxeological law, natural law, whatever you want to call it.
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First, law that is discovered rather than just conjured up by some dude who thinks one
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thing is better than another.
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And I do believe that laws are discoverable.
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You can, if the goal, you always have to have some if, right?
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And if the goal is civilization, if the goal is civilized society, then laws are definitely
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discoverable.
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And it's property rights.
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That's the thing.
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There's only one human right that can be universal and for all times, and that is the right to be left alone.
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So I think all other thinking around this and what we ought to do and ought not to do and what ought to be forbidden or not should be based on that.
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And that can be tricky because there's so much nuance and it's kind of hard to get to the core truth of it.
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But if you do, if you have this cemented grounding or whatever you may call it to base your philosophy on, then it becomes easy.
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What is and what isn't property theft?
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I have the opportunity to ask somebody much wiser than me on this topic, this question that I get sometimes where, you know, like the ideas behind, you know, anarcho-capitalism or, you know, anything on that level towards that direction.
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of freedom minded, voluntary exchange of goods and services is there are people who will
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use their money to do bad things.
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And like, how is like, how should we handle that?
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Define bad things.
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In particular, I think one of the more common arguments against that kind of philosophy is
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that an anarcho-capitalist, powerful person
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could create some kind of child slavery or something.
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Yeah, like we have now?
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Public schooling?
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Yeah, that's pretty nonsense.
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I'm supportive of dismantling the Department of Education.
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The way I see it, we already live in Ancapistan,
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and we always did.
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It's just that some bad actors have a lot of influence on others.
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Like the most violent gang, the gang with a monopoly on violence in a territory, they
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can coerce people into certain behaviors.
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That's what we're living in.
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And it not really a political philosophy it more of a lens to view the world through Is this morally right or wrong And if it theft it wrong If it property violation
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it's wrong. And that goes for any type of aggression. If I take your stuff or if I
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violate your body, I'm doing something wrong. If I'm not, I'm not doing anything wrong.
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like if i litter for instance on my property or in nature and no one's property like who's to say
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what littering is who gets to define it like did i litter or did i alter nature to to make it into
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my whatever i wanted it to be to art or whatever if i tape a banana to a tree so in my mind it's
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it's pretty simple victimless crimes aren't crimes and also i hear this all the time from
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people who misinterpret anarcho-capitalism
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that
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everyone's going to scam everyone else
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but scamming is not
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free market
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it's a crime
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it's also a crime in Ankapistan
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a free market does not mean
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a market where you get to
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take people's stuff by being
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insincere
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a scam is a
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breach of contract, it's deliberately
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fooling someone
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to steal their stuff
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So that is not a part of the free market. An NFT is in a gray zone, I would say, because you could claim that it has value to some to have access to a certain.
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But you can also pretty easily make the case that that is true for this. That's why all the cryptos survive, right? Because the same logic can be applied to them as to Bitcoin in a certain sense.
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But if you look under the hood, you see that the Satoshi is truly special and has events like the block size wars and stuff to prove that it's actually decentralized and secure and you can't be rugged.
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Would you agree with the idea that all value is subjective?
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Absolutely. And dynamic.
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And so in a way, like if somebody finds an NFT subjectively valuable and they like voluntarily throughout without coercion, voluntarily like exchange their money for it, then, you know, like, yeah, it's hard to classify.
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The fraud, though, is not in that they find it valuable.
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The fraud is in that they say it's non-fungible and that it's a token.
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Because it's not non-fungible.
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You can put the same picture.
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You can right-click on the picture and save it to your computer and you have exactly.
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And also, like...
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There's a misunderstanding of NFTs, though, right?
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Because an NFT is more of just a proof of purchase, really.
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Yes.
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But, for instance, it's the proof of purchase of a picture.
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but that is the same as proof of purchase of a star in the Andromeda galaxy
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because if it's on the time chain everyone can see it I can see it
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I may need a third-party website to see the picture
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but the data is there for everyone to see
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and I as the owner have no other things to do with it than anyone else has
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So the very notion of ownership is that's the scam.
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That's where the scam lies.
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You can't really own it because you can't do anything with it that everyone else can't.
329
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It's the same problem of tokenizing real-world assets as sort of an oracle problem, right?
330
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Yeah, token makes no sense to me since everything in the computing realm is copyable.
331
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I mean, this is why I fell in love with Bitcoin in the first place.
332
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It's because the promise of something on the internet that couldn't be copied or rather something in computing that couldn't be copied.
333
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I found that outrageous.
334
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Like how can something not be copied?
335
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It's an incredible idea.
336
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Yeah.
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And so like NFTs, they might be able to have the same arbitrary data, some kind of JPEG or whatever.
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You can copy and right-click save and create a new one, but it won't be the same one.
339
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there's a, you know, like there's a record, right?
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A historical record of that proof of purchase that...
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Yeah, but claiming that that record is immutable,
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that's what's wrong.
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Like even if it's on the Bitcoin blockchain,
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it still requires a third-party website
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to actually assign the ownership.
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You can run an indexer on your own.
347
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Yeah, but there's no proof that that will last forever.
348
00:32:25,096 --> 00:32:26,096
It will last as long as Bitcoin.
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us not necessarily if the cat for instance happens it won't so so they're making an empty
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promise even from that perspective uh to subdegree but like i i would suppose that
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i mean that that whether uh bitcoin will be amenable to arbitrary data forever is probably
352
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hard to say however and yes things like the cat would essentially remove the capability
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to spend them. And so it would essentially have like a chilling effect on the market for it.
354
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But there's also like that doesn't necessarily disincentivize or prevent the archival use case,
355
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which is kind of like similar but different. And so like the thing is, like we can't necessarily
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go back and just like take out all that has currently been mined on without like making
357
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unverifiable right no no i know but so that is the promise that the nft salesman sells you
358
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however the the promise isn't my point is that the promise is not as robust as he's as advertised
359
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and therein lies part of the scam the other part of the scam is that you can't really own
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data. Like data is by its very nature not ownable. All you can have is a receipt.
361
00:33:51,256 --> 00:33:54,176
If you're the only person who owns a private key, then are you not the only owner?
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But my whole argument from the beginning here, and this is quite fun, I think, because we're
363
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doing this argument thing here now, is that a Satoshi is not really ownable. You can just act
364
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as if you own it because if you have access to the secret. The secret gives you the superpower
365
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of acting as if you owned it,
366
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but it's not physically ownable.
367
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It's not by definition.
368
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You cannot own data.
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You can be the only owner of a secret key, though.
370
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I would say you can be the knower,
371
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but you have no way of knowing
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if someone else knows the same key or not.
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I cannot prove that I'm the only owner of a key.
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I can find it plausible.
375
00:34:36,496 --> 00:34:37,815
There might be ways to do that, actually.
376
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There's a couple of ways.
377
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So like one is through quantum computers, like because they can detect eavesdropping.
378
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And that's like one of the more, how would you say, like.
379
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Okay.
380
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Yeah.
381
00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:58,315
I hear you coming from this from a very much more technical approach and me from the much more philosophical approach.
382
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Because I think a good balance, right?
383
00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:01,396
Yeah, absolutely.
384
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That's where we want to meet.
385
00:35:02,736 --> 00:35:06,596
Like that's the part of the Venn diagram that we're looking for.
386
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:06,916
Yeah.
387
00:35:06,916 --> 00:35:34,615
Yeah, it's a good conversation. I mean, you're obviously a master of your craft, with respect. I've been practicing mine for 13 or 14 years now. I feel like I'm a skilled enough protocol engineer now that I could speak to Bitcoin with some measure of, I don't want to say the word authority, but some measure of experience and skill.
388
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Some gravitas.
389
00:35:35,936 --> 00:35:43,976
yes that's a good word it's much better than authority by the way we're doing this the wrong
390
00:35:43,976 --> 00:35:50,476
order like my first question ought to be hunter please tell our listeners who the fuck you are
391
00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:56,476
for because they haven't they don't know you so like introduce yourself please well i mean if it
392
00:35:56,476 --> 00:36:02,576
goes if you go by by what you hear about at x i'm just like this gay furry that's attacking bitcoin
393
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and I talk about quadricomputers a lot.
394
00:36:05,675 --> 00:36:05,835
Yeah.
395
00:36:07,216 --> 00:36:09,396
What are you apart from a gay furry?
396
00:36:10,115 --> 00:36:11,256
Yeah, well, I mean,
397
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the interesting stuff.
398
00:36:12,936 --> 00:36:15,076
That's probably the least interesting part of me,
399
00:36:15,115 --> 00:36:15,776
actually, you're right.
400
00:36:16,036 --> 00:36:16,856
And it's funny.
401
00:36:17,796 --> 00:36:23,516
I mean, like, I'm married to a guy.
402
00:36:23,635 --> 00:36:25,056
It's legal here now, you know?
403
00:36:25,056 --> 00:36:30,416
I mean, we have discussed perhaps a divorce
404
00:36:30,416 --> 00:36:32,516
just to own the libs, just because we can.
405
00:36:32,576 --> 00:36:39,815
Right. You know, yeah. But did your baker bake a cake?
406
00:36:39,976 --> 00:36:42,296
And what was their struggle getting the cake baked?
407
00:36:42,596 --> 00:36:45,296
Like I hear these strange stories from the U.S.
408
00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:50,096
Oh, we did not have a formal wedding of any kind.
409
00:36:51,516 --> 00:36:54,756
Like back then, it was just like, you know, like this is what gays did.
410
00:36:54,796 --> 00:36:57,196
You get go to the courthouse, you get you file some paperwork.
411
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And then I'm thinking, you know, back on that.
412
00:37:00,236 --> 00:37:03,635
And I'm just like, wow, like, that's really statist bullshit.
413
00:37:04,155 --> 00:37:07,416
Like, you know, like, I mean, are you married?
414
00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:08,476
Yes.
415
00:37:08,536 --> 00:37:13,936
And I did a statist marriage because I didn't want to do it in church because I'm not religious.
416
00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:17,296
And I realized in hindsight, like, what the fuck?
417
00:37:17,536 --> 00:37:21,596
I like Christianity more than I like the state, even though I dislike both.
418
00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:29,296
like no no i i i like i like uh christianity a lot too even though um that there is uh some
419
00:37:29,296 --> 00:37:34,315
measure of like rejection other other other other you can you can reject certain parts of christianity
420
00:37:34,315 --> 00:37:39,635
that say homosexuality or wrong which like i i don't really want to like dwell too much in that
421
00:37:39,635 --> 00:37:45,155
but the thing is um it's i think what i will say is that it's not for everybody because if everybody
422
00:37:45,155 --> 00:37:49,396
was gay then like we wouldn't have another generation to hand everything to you know like
423
00:37:49,396 --> 00:37:50,756
It would be the end of the human race.
424
00:37:50,916 --> 00:37:51,315
Yeah.
425
00:37:51,696 --> 00:37:53,976
It would be great for that generation, I'm sure.
426
00:37:54,115 --> 00:37:55,635
But then it would all be over.
427
00:37:55,956 --> 00:38:03,716
It would either that or we enter some kind of weird transhumanist like dystopia where the next generation is growing in the pods, comrade.
428
00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:04,756
Yeah.
429
00:38:06,596 --> 00:38:12,936
But yeah, I am a developer and for the role of engineer.
430
00:38:12,936 --> 00:38:22,276
I don't have a formal education, so I'm reluctant to accept the title of engineer, but that's essentially my title.
431
00:38:22,496 --> 00:38:24,556
I act as a protocol engineer.
432
00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:32,076
And I have a pretty good understanding of photography, but there's still a lot I don't know.
433
00:38:32,696 --> 00:38:40,796
I'm still learning a lot of things from the great people who have worked in that field, like Daniel J. Bernstein and also Ethan Hellman.
434
00:38:40,796 --> 00:38:50,476
He's a co-author of MyBip, and he's a trained cartographer who works at Cloudflare.
435
00:38:51,056 --> 00:38:53,856
Which company do you like less, Mara or Cloudflare?
436
00:38:54,815 --> 00:38:58,076
I would say Mara because I know more about them.
437
00:38:58,476 --> 00:38:59,096
But, yeah.
438
00:38:59,696 --> 00:39:09,236
Yeah, I mean, I would say that Cloudflare has done more to harm the Internet than really any other company.
439
00:39:09,236 --> 00:39:13,675
But also, I mean, arguably, they provide a lot of utility as well.
440
00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:15,956
I should be fair and not necessarily.
441
00:39:17,976 --> 00:39:18,496
Yeah.
442
00:39:18,696 --> 00:39:21,155
But anyway, you know, there's a lot to be said.
443
00:39:21,436 --> 00:39:23,135
But do you work for Mara now?
444
00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:26,216
So I am a contractor.
445
00:39:26,896 --> 00:39:27,196
Okay.
446
00:39:27,196 --> 00:39:41,335
And also, I might not work for, they might actually split out some of their more like philanthropic stuff at some point in the future.
447
00:39:41,716 --> 00:39:47,056
So it'll probably be a different organization, but maybe with some kind of funding.
448
00:39:47,476 --> 00:39:47,756
I don't know.
449
00:39:48,376 --> 00:39:52,115
Can you make Mara stop doing stupid shit somehow?
450
00:39:52,115 --> 00:40:01,835
Well, I mean, I mean, like, I think that's a that's a complicated question, right?
451
00:40:01,835 --> 00:40:23,576
Because, like, I mean, if you think of Mara as a state corporation that has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders to maximize value extraction, like, they're essentially, they're legally obligated to extract as much fees from operation however they can, right?
452
00:40:23,576 --> 00:40:31,576
Oh, but this is given that they're denominating, they're equivalent, they're, they're, they
453
00:40:31,576 --> 00:40:34,576
denominate in dollars is what I'm trying to say here.
454
00:40:34,876 --> 00:40:39,456
If they were actually concerned about their shareholders and their, their miners or their
455
00:40:39,456 --> 00:40:45,916
hash salesmen, they would, their, their main objective was, would be to make sats last
456
00:40:45,916 --> 00:40:46,335
forever.
457
00:40:46,696 --> 00:40:50,716
Like the longevity of the Bitcoin network would be top priority, right?
458
00:40:50,936 --> 00:40:51,376
Of course.
459
00:40:51,376 --> 00:40:53,296
But the thing is they're state capitalists, right?
460
00:40:53,296 --> 00:41:14,996
Like the thing is, as an agorist, I sort of identify more with agorist thinking and that they make a distinction between, you know, an ordinary like entrepreneur who isn't necessarily trying to benefit from the monopoly and violence that the state has to their own personal benefit, like a state capitalist or Cantellian or would.
461
00:41:14,996 --> 00:41:15,356
Right.
462
00:41:16,556 --> 00:41:16,936
Like.
463
00:41:18,296 --> 00:41:23,296
I think that sort of like as a state corporation,
464
00:41:23,696 --> 00:41:30,675
they have to play by the the fiat game and the fiat game isn't like to make
465
00:41:30,675 --> 00:41:34,056
long term investments that pay off well into the future.
466
00:41:34,056 --> 00:41:46,823
There it to make as much money as possible for shareholders now Which is which is so retarded like that That is the case I don disagree with that I don disagree with that It short and irresponsible in the long run
467
00:41:46,903 --> 00:41:47,623
I do agree with that.
468
00:41:47,623 --> 00:41:49,443
So educate me here.
469
00:41:49,544 --> 00:41:51,623
Why is it a state-run company?
470
00:41:51,823 --> 00:41:54,303
Like, I don't know how this works.
471
00:41:54,983 --> 00:42:01,263
Well, I mean, like any corporation that registers and pays taxes to the state is in my opinion.
472
00:42:01,263 --> 00:42:02,203
You mean in that way?
473
00:42:02,483 --> 00:42:02,683
Yeah.
474
00:42:02,683 --> 00:42:06,923
Yeah, it's all based on fake and gay man-made laws.
475
00:42:07,743 --> 00:42:12,623
Funny you should use that word, but it's spelled G-H-E-Y, right?
476
00:42:13,163 --> 00:42:13,663
Right, right.
477
00:42:13,723 --> 00:42:14,163
Of course.
478
00:42:14,383 --> 00:42:14,583
Right.
479
00:42:14,723 --> 00:42:15,983
There's a distinction there.
480
00:42:17,303 --> 00:42:17,663
Maybe.
481
00:42:18,023 --> 00:42:25,163
I hope people won't review bomb this episode like they did with the Stranger Things thing, you know, with the coming out scene.
482
00:42:25,883 --> 00:42:30,683
Well, first of all, that was not something I—
483
00:42:30,683 --> 00:42:31,263
Super cringe.
484
00:42:31,263 --> 00:42:32,783
very cringe
485
00:42:32,783 --> 00:42:33,823
I think this
486
00:42:33,823 --> 00:42:35,363
what we're talking about here
487
00:42:35,363 --> 00:42:36,423
are very serious issues
488
00:42:36,423 --> 00:42:38,203
and probably the very
489
00:42:38,203 --> 00:42:39,383
the most opposite
490
00:42:39,383 --> 00:42:40,963
almost as far as
491
00:42:40,963 --> 00:42:41,803
removed it from
492
00:42:41,803 --> 00:42:42,603
like
493
00:42:42,603 --> 00:42:43,603
like
494
00:42:43,603 --> 00:42:45,044
woke Hollywood slop
495
00:42:45,044 --> 00:42:45,643
than
496
00:42:45,643 --> 00:42:46,223
you know
497
00:42:46,223 --> 00:42:46,523
yeah
498
00:42:46,523 --> 00:42:47,943
we're talking about
499
00:42:47,943 --> 00:42:49,163
actual strange things
500
00:42:49,163 --> 00:42:51,883
there are some strange things
501
00:42:51,883 --> 00:42:52,703
not CGI
502
00:42:52,703 --> 00:42:55,163
there's some real monsters
503
00:42:55,163 --> 00:42:55,883
out there actually
504
00:42:55,883 --> 00:42:56,483
yeah
505
00:42:56,483 --> 00:42:57,423
yeah
506
00:42:57,423 --> 00:42:59,363
and I mean
507
00:42:59,363 --> 00:42:59,843
yeah
508
00:42:59,843 --> 00:43:02,663
Yeah, a brief side note on that Stranger Things thing.
509
00:43:02,743 --> 00:43:08,763
I think this, I laughed my ass off when I saw that got review bombed because it wasn't that bad.
510
00:43:08,883 --> 00:43:13,283
It wasn't as preachy as Hollywood used to be like a couple of years ago.
511
00:43:13,283 --> 00:43:16,743
And there was completely tone deaf during COVID, you know.
512
00:43:17,563 --> 00:43:19,603
So, but I find it hilarious.
513
00:43:19,603 --> 00:43:29,823
Like Peak Woke was a Marvel series called Echo, which is a Native American, slightly overweight, lesbian, deaf woman that is a superhero for some reason.
514
00:43:29,843 --> 00:43:36,703
hasn't even crossed my radar honestly no but i think the whole woke i think people they're so
515
00:43:36,703 --> 00:43:42,583
fed up with it now so so whenever they shoehorn in something like that they get completely bombed
516
00:43:42,583 --> 00:43:50,463
uh because it's super unnecessary yeah yeah i mean the era is just over yeah i think that actually
517
00:43:50,463 --> 00:43:56,883
put people like me in harm's way because yeah absolutely like that that should be a private
518
00:43:56,883 --> 00:44:02,203
thing that should be not something we encourage or celebrate necessarily. It's something we should
519
00:44:02,203 --> 00:44:08,503
just not do anything about because it's a private thing between consenting adults, right? There are
520
00:44:08,503 --> 00:44:16,443
definitely big problems for when the agenda is being used to corrupt and indoctrinate the youth.
521
00:44:16,583 --> 00:44:24,303
I mean, that's the future. And fiat has a way of discounting the future and extracting value
522
00:44:24,303 --> 00:44:29,064
from the people who can least afford it, especially like inflation, right?
523
00:44:29,123 --> 00:44:33,423
Inflation impacts the poor far more than anyone else.
524
00:44:34,283 --> 00:44:39,143
And in many ways, like when you were saying, like we were saying, you know, there are monsters,
525
00:44:39,643 --> 00:44:41,003
there are real monsters out there.
526
00:44:41,003 --> 00:44:45,803
I would say like Jerome Powell is like one of those, like any central banker really,
527
00:44:46,083 --> 00:44:52,303
like has like a lot of, let's just say sin to account for at some point.
528
00:44:52,763 --> 00:44:53,083
Absolutely.
529
00:44:53,503 --> 00:44:53,843
We're back.
530
00:44:54,303 --> 00:44:59,183
No, no, no, but we're back to the beginning of the conversation sacrificing infants.
531
00:44:59,383 --> 00:45:01,203
That's what we're doing with using fiat money.
532
00:45:01,363 --> 00:45:02,544
We're sacrificing our kids.
533
00:45:02,803 --> 00:45:03,083
It is.
534
00:45:03,083 --> 00:45:03,803
It's awful.
535
00:45:04,544 --> 00:45:05,523
It hurts.
536
00:45:06,223 --> 00:45:06,363
Yeah.
537
00:45:06,443 --> 00:45:13,603
I mean, I recently read an Arthur C. Clarke novel called Childhood's End.
538
00:45:14,564 --> 00:45:15,483
Have you read it?
539
00:45:16,083 --> 00:45:16,363
No.
540
00:45:16,943 --> 00:45:22,923
It is probably the most depressing ending I've ever read, ever.
541
00:45:22,923 --> 00:45:30,703
It's like, basically, I won't spoil the book, but I mean, all the children have to leave.
542
00:45:31,803 --> 00:45:34,003
And then that's the end of humanity.
543
00:45:34,183 --> 00:45:36,163
Everybody just loses hope and it's over.
544
00:45:36,283 --> 00:45:37,643
It's over within a few years.
545
00:45:38,003 --> 00:45:38,503
It's all over.
546
00:45:39,103 --> 00:45:39,863
It's really sad.
547
00:45:40,123 --> 00:45:41,723
Did you see a movie called The Mist?
548
00:45:42,503 --> 00:45:42,943
No.
549
00:45:43,544 --> 00:45:52,623
It's one of my pet favorite movies of mine where there's a big mist coming to a small town and there's monsters in the mist.
550
00:45:52,623 --> 00:45:53,343
The Stephen King novel.
551
00:45:53,463 --> 00:45:54,723
Yeah, that guy is like woke as fuck.
552
00:45:56,103 --> 00:45:56,783
No, no, no.
553
00:45:56,783 --> 00:45:58,823
But the film adaptation is Frank Darabont.
554
00:45:58,923 --> 00:46:00,803
It's the guy who wrote Shawshank Redemption,
555
00:46:01,023 --> 00:46:02,003
wrote the screenplay for that.
556
00:46:02,044 --> 00:46:02,483
So it's great.
557
00:46:02,843 --> 00:46:05,763
Like it's none of the woke garbage or anything like that.
558
00:46:06,583 --> 00:46:07,943
Or like kid rape or something.
559
00:46:08,403 --> 00:46:08,883
No, no.
560
00:46:08,883 --> 00:46:10,103
It's from before that.
561
00:46:10,343 --> 00:46:14,323
But there's tentacles with fangs and stuff
562
00:46:14,323 --> 00:46:16,283
coming out of the mist and taking people away.
563
00:46:16,523 --> 00:46:19,943
And well, the whole ending scene is super depressing
564
00:46:19,943 --> 00:46:23,963
because the guy has four bullets in his gun
565
00:46:23,963 --> 00:46:26,103
and he gets to shoot his family
566
00:46:26,103 --> 00:46:28,863
to save them from being torn apart by these monsters.
567
00:46:29,723 --> 00:46:31,163
And as soon as he's done,
568
00:46:31,243 --> 00:46:33,843
he's got no bullet for himself left.
569
00:46:34,303 --> 00:46:37,603
The mist settles and there are no more monsters
570
00:46:37,603 --> 00:46:40,403
because the military won.
571
00:46:40,564 --> 00:46:41,723
So he didn't have to do that.
572
00:46:42,603 --> 00:46:44,023
It's a wonderful ending.
573
00:46:44,203 --> 00:46:46,883
I love everything goes to shit endings, by the way.
574
00:46:46,883 --> 00:46:49,283
I find them amusing for some reason.
575
00:46:49,283 --> 00:46:51,103
Definitely read that book then, Childhood's End.
576
00:46:51,763 --> 00:46:52,823
Anyway, where were we?
577
00:46:53,064 --> 00:46:56,123
Yeah, the gay stuff and the woke stuff.
578
00:46:56,323 --> 00:47:02,923
Like if I was a homosexual, I would hate pride parades because I would be embarrassed by them.
579
00:47:03,363 --> 00:47:04,064
They're embarrassing.
580
00:47:04,183 --> 00:47:04,723
Yeah, frankly.
581
00:47:04,983 --> 00:47:05,503
Yeah, absolutely.
582
00:47:06,183 --> 00:47:07,983
That's why I pushed back on the woke stuff.
583
00:47:08,123 --> 00:47:10,643
I pushed back on – I voted for Trump.
584
00:47:11,643 --> 00:47:13,123
I started my husband.
585
00:47:14,083 --> 00:47:17,603
And like, I mean, there's a lot to say about that too.
586
00:47:17,603 --> 00:47:25,263
But one of the major reasons we both did that was just to sort of do our part to send the signal that this has to stop.
587
00:47:25,403 --> 00:47:34,803
Like this woke shit is not helping anybody except for maybe pushing a radical, weird agenda that nobody wants.
588
00:47:35,623 --> 00:47:45,723
And like transgender in particular is something is a topic that is really only important to like maybe less than one percent of the American population.
589
00:47:45,723 --> 00:47:52,683
and uh it's just interesting to me to see the left really like kind of die on that hill of like a one
590
00:47:52,683 --> 00:48:00,303
a less than one percent issue um i i and i mean and if you if you have a problem with that um
591
00:48:00,303 --> 00:48:07,763
that's also a good illustration of the tyranny of the majority right um like people say a lot of
592
00:48:07,763 --> 00:48:13,283
good things about democracy but there's a lot of bad things about it as well uh it's in my opinion
593
00:48:13,283 --> 00:48:19,064
There's no one right person to putting charge over a country of hundreds of millions.
594
00:48:19,403 --> 00:48:22,023
Like it's that makes very little sense.
595
00:48:22,223 --> 00:48:27,003
Hayek, you know, he talked about the use of information in society or news of knowledge in society.
596
00:48:27,003 --> 00:48:30,564
And he said, you know, basically like command economies don't work.
597
00:48:31,303 --> 00:48:36,503
One says all fits all solutions put on everybody are inefficient.
598
00:48:36,503 --> 00:48:42,503
And in an inefficient market, you get scarcity, you get starvation.
599
00:48:43,283 --> 00:48:47,703
And that's why socialism, communism and command economies just don't work.
600
00:48:48,143 --> 00:49:13,044
And conversely, on the other side of it, one of the best examples that proved Hayek right was the fact that after the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution from Mao and all the nonsense he had in his Red Book, all the stupid shit he'd say about planting, you know, seeds three times closer together.
601
00:49:13,044 --> 00:49:22,103
And you need to like take all your agricultural implements and take all the iron out of them and send them to Beijing or whatever.
602
00:49:22,243 --> 00:49:25,083
It's like all that nonsense.
603
00:49:25,643 --> 00:49:26,923
Here comes Deng Xiaoping.
604
00:49:27,503 --> 00:49:37,883
And Deng Xiaoping, the reformer, he comes in and very humbly looks across the pond and he sees all the great success the Japanese economic miracle is having.
605
00:49:37,883 --> 00:49:44,363
And he humbly comes over and he asked them, what did you do to make that happen?
606
00:49:44,763 --> 00:49:46,583
And you know what they told him?
607
00:49:47,103 --> 00:49:48,323
They didn't do shit.
608
00:49:48,863 --> 00:49:53,103
No, what they told him was they needed to have a bank in every village.
609
00:49:53,743 --> 00:49:54,403
Uh-huh.
610
00:49:54,963 --> 00:50:01,423
And that arguably is what led to the rise of the growing Chinese middle class and the prosperity they enjoy today.
611
00:50:01,423 --> 00:50:06,343
because they were able to empower more economically incentivized actors in the economy
612
00:50:06,343 --> 00:50:10,983
to not have a one-size-fits-all solution, but have a bank in every village.
613
00:50:11,064 --> 00:50:12,064
That's the very opposite.
614
00:50:12,584 --> 00:50:16,843
It's very capitalistic, actually, in the free market sense.
615
00:50:16,843 --> 00:50:24,084
And in many ways, the rise and success of China is validation of Austrian economics.
616
00:50:25,423 --> 00:50:28,363
Yeah, and it's the same as the fall of the Soviet Union.
617
00:50:28,363 --> 00:50:37,863
I talk about this all the time when Gorbachev come over to the U.S. and saw that in the one horse town in the middle of nowhere, they had more food than he had ever seen.
618
00:50:38,223 --> 00:50:39,283
And he was very elite.
619
00:50:39,544 --> 00:50:46,923
I mean, if you haven't already, I mean, look up old footage of Soviet grocery stores, how depressing they were.
620
00:50:47,403 --> 00:50:47,843
Yeah, yeah.
621
00:50:47,843 --> 00:51:01,143
And then for contrast, you see, you'll drive maybe half an hour and you'll go to a Buc-ee's, you know, or a Costco and you're just like surrounded by abundance and it's glorious.
622
00:51:01,483 --> 00:51:02,584
Have you been to a Buc-ee's yet?
623
00:51:03,503 --> 00:51:06,163
I don't think I believe I've ever been to a Buc-ee's.
624
00:51:06,383 --> 00:51:07,143
Next time we're both.
625
00:51:07,463 --> 00:51:07,963
I've been to a Costco.
626
00:51:08,163 --> 00:51:09,044
Yeah, we should.
627
00:51:09,343 --> 00:51:11,783
Oh, Costco is probably one of our better exports.
628
00:51:11,983 --> 00:51:14,623
I think it has achieved some success outside the US, right?
629
00:51:15,623 --> 00:51:16,803
Yeah, I think so, too.
630
00:51:16,803 --> 00:51:19,183
But I think the ones I've been to have been in the U.S.
631
00:51:19,223 --> 00:51:22,123
I don't remember, though, like a supermarket is not.
632
00:51:22,443 --> 00:51:23,183
But it's incredible, right?
633
00:51:23,263 --> 00:51:36,943
Like it's incredible, like, like, like a sign that, you know, like, like, like the fact that we're capable of economically sustainable supply chain like that without necessarily an enormous amount of government subsidy.
634
00:51:37,044 --> 00:51:42,423
It doesn't go free of government subsidy because there's a lot of subsidy of dairy and oil and all sorts of, you know.
635
00:51:42,423 --> 00:51:47,743
Yeah, but it would be even smoother and even more efficient without it.
636
00:51:48,123 --> 00:51:49,483
Yeah, it's true. It's true.
637
00:51:50,064 --> 00:51:53,783
And all capitalism is, it's just a voluntary exchange of goods and services.
638
00:51:53,783 --> 00:51:54,084
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
639
00:51:54,243 --> 00:51:58,643
And you saw the Milton Friedman about the pencil, eye pencil, right?
640
00:51:59,443 --> 00:52:05,283
I don't think he wrote it, but he does a very good version of it.
641
00:52:05,683 --> 00:52:08,183
Anyway, interesting parts.
642
00:52:08,383 --> 00:52:12,223
We've been through the uninteresting parts about you now.
643
00:52:12,423 --> 00:52:15,663
What about BIP 360?
644
00:52:16,203 --> 00:52:17,443
Tell me about that.
645
00:52:17,763 --> 00:52:17,883
Yes.
646
00:52:18,403 --> 00:52:20,683
Bitcoin improvement proposal 360.
647
00:52:21,023 --> 00:52:21,463
What is that?
648
00:52:21,683 --> 00:52:31,463
BIP 360 is essentially, we've whittled it down into the most, basically the smallest thing we think we need to change about Bitcoin.
649
00:52:31,463 --> 00:52:35,383
that will then essentially give us the position,
650
00:52:35,603 --> 00:52:39,883
we'll be much better positioned to adopt and make use of,
651
00:52:40,223 --> 00:52:42,683
as it makes sense to, post-quantum cryptography.
652
00:52:43,143 --> 00:52:46,663
We need post-quantum cryptography because,
653
00:52:47,243 --> 00:52:51,883
not necessarily because Bitcoin is vulnerable entirely right now,
654
00:52:51,883 --> 00:52:54,783
but in the BIP, we're very careful to explain
655
00:52:54,783 --> 00:52:58,463
that there will probably be a distinction
656
00:52:58,463 --> 00:53:00,523
between the kind of quantum computer needed
657
00:53:00,523 --> 00:53:05,883
to attack Bitcoin if you had all the time in the world with the public keys exposed on chain.
658
00:53:06,463 --> 00:53:12,623
And if you only have 10 minutes at most, and if the money gets moved to a different key
659
00:53:12,623 --> 00:53:19,783
before you're able to recover that key with your quantum computer, then you've essentially wasted
660
00:53:19,783 --> 00:53:24,863
a lot of energy and compute and you lost your chance at those coins. And so like those,
661
00:53:25,044 --> 00:53:29,643
the distinction between a long exposure attack and a short exposure attack, which is what I just
662
00:53:29,643 --> 00:53:34,564
described, could be quite substantial because of the kind of quantum computer needed.
663
00:53:34,723 --> 00:53:42,763
However, Bitcoin is about two thirds resistant against long exposure attacks and basically
664
00:53:42,763 --> 00:53:47,783
zero percent resistant against short exposure attacks.
665
00:53:47,923 --> 00:53:53,383
That said, short exposure attacks we consider to be a much longer term problem.
666
00:53:53,383 --> 00:53:58,243
We don't need to solve it necessarily tomorrow, though we will need to have standards if we
667
00:53:58,243 --> 00:54:04,303
want to build software that's designed to be future-proof for the coming havings and generations.
668
00:54:04,303 --> 00:54:12,183
Like, ultimately, what BIP D60 does is it resolves a concern with Taproot in that every
669
00:54:12,183 --> 00:54:19,183
Taproot address is an exposed public key, which can be used to spend the coins if you can derive
670
00:54:19,183 --> 00:54:25,983
the private key from that public key using either algorithmic break in what's called the discrete
671
00:54:25,983 --> 00:54:31,863
log problem or DLP or an elliptic cryptography, or if you're just able to, in a way, brute
672
00:54:31,863 --> 00:54:38,084
force it cleverly using Shor's algorithm on a cryptographically relevant quantum computer.
673
00:54:38,084 --> 00:54:45,323
Even if that scenario is like not something that manifests, something that already is
674
00:54:45,323 --> 00:54:51,223
real is the fear, uncertainty and doubt in markets that sort of acts as a quantum discount
675
00:54:51,223 --> 00:54:58,643
on Bitcoin's price, which, as I mentioned earlier, its value is part of the security
676
00:54:58,643 --> 00:54:59,023
model.
677
00:54:59,163 --> 00:55:02,663
So if we don't value Bitcoin, then people won't mind to protect it.
678
00:55:02,663 --> 00:55:09,843
And so it'll languish and not be able to protect all the wealth that it currently does
679
00:55:09,843 --> 00:55:11,643
at a protocol level.
680
00:55:11,823 --> 00:55:20,863
And so I think the quantum FUD is probably one of the most salient pieces of FUD out
681
00:55:20,863 --> 00:55:24,623
There's a lot of lower quality FUD that we've all heard in the past.
682
00:55:24,623 --> 00:55:30,003
It's just cool up bulbs or like it's going to be e-waste or mining is wasteful.
683
00:55:30,663 --> 00:55:32,883
Daniel Batten,
684
00:55:32,911 --> 00:55:40,571
I don't know if you see his stuff on Twitter, but he is very methodical and meticulous and deconstructs all of those arguments.
685
00:55:40,571 --> 00:55:45,751
He is great. He's great talking to his crowd. Like he is definitely great at that.
686
00:55:45,791 --> 00:55:49,711
Yeah. Yeah. And he is able to address a lot of that FUD quite effectively.
687
00:55:50,071 --> 00:56:00,771
He recently paid me a compliment on X and that just made my day because like the most I care to do is just write a BIP and then say that you're gay if you sell your Bitcoin for FUD.
688
00:56:00,771 --> 00:56:08,571
it's a lot easier it's a lot easier just say oh uh yo you're afraid of quantum computers that's
689
00:56:08,571 --> 00:56:17,871
pretty gay so okay so uh let me see that there was a lot to unpack there let me see if i i can
690
00:56:17,871 --> 00:56:25,511
pose a question here the reverse thing is you think people will will value bitcoin higher if
691
00:56:25,511 --> 00:56:32,091
they know that it's quantum or secure if it's provably quantum secure i know i know for a fact
692
00:56:32,091 --> 00:56:38,331
that is the case yeah so that is one of the arguments for if if if there was a robust way
693
00:56:38,331 --> 00:56:44,511
to to to show that bitcoin cannot be cracked by quantum computers ever so all this alt coiner
694
00:56:44,511 --> 00:56:50,011
fud that the shit coiner fud that spreads every time people start talking about quantum computing
695
00:56:50,011 --> 00:56:55,011
can be discarded yeah so so that's one of the motivations for actually making it quantum proof
696
00:56:55,011 --> 00:57:02,271
I guess. Exactly. Yeah. All right. So, and this is a question Luke pointed out that I should ask,
697
00:57:02,651 --> 00:57:09,951
how big are these BIP 360 transactions? Well, that is a good question because it has a nuanced
698
00:57:09,951 --> 00:57:17,651
answer. It is very complicated. So actually, BIP 360 in its current form, after like being
699
00:57:17,651 --> 00:57:23,131
rewritten four times with a bunch of feedback, and I've added not just one, but two other co-authors,
700
00:57:23,131 --> 00:57:27,211
is it actually doesn't introduce any post-chronic cartography.
701
00:57:27,451 --> 00:57:32,351
It doesn't deprecate or introduce any form of cartography
702
00:57:32,351 --> 00:57:38,351
other than the fact that it creates a new address output type
703
00:57:38,351 --> 00:57:40,871
that is basically the next version in SegWit.
704
00:57:40,871 --> 00:57:45,491
So the original native SegWit addresses, they start with ZBC1Q.
705
00:57:46,111 --> 00:57:47,831
Those are hashed. Those are fine.
706
00:57:47,951 --> 00:57:49,371
They came out in 2017, right?
707
00:57:50,071 --> 00:57:51,471
Taproot, SegWitV1.
708
00:57:51,471 --> 00:57:53,591
So the original was Sego v0.
709
00:57:53,971 --> 00:57:57,831
Sego v1 is Taproot or Pay to Taproot, P2TR.
710
00:57:58,371 --> 00:58:12,931
Those are problematic, but they do add a very useful property, which is the capability to commit to essentially a Merkle tree of scripts, different scripts that you can decide which one you want to reveal at spend time.
711
00:58:13,191 --> 00:58:19,291
That is really important for enabling sort of like signature scheme choice in your wallet.
712
00:58:19,291 --> 00:58:39,011
So if you are worried about quantum computers someday and you think you'd like to prepare for that possibility where you may need to send some money and you don't want to necessarily worry about like this threat, you can sort of pay a premium and it will make use of cryptography that's harder.
713
00:58:39,411 --> 00:58:41,951
That is not specified in BIP 360 itself.
714
00:58:42,071 --> 00:58:45,471
We had to break it up because it is such a complex and deep rabbit hole.
715
00:58:45,471 --> 00:58:57,471
And so we're just trying to make sure that we fix this flaw in Taproot so that we can then in the future decide what is a better signature scheme for Bitcoin.
716
00:58:57,871 --> 00:59:00,671
And that's still hotly debated.
717
00:59:01,611 --> 00:59:03,211
So how big are the transactions?
718
00:59:03,211 --> 00:59:11,851
To answer the question, there will be no increase in size for sending money to one of these addresses.
719
00:59:12,191 --> 00:59:20,691
And in the future, you will have the option of either using the standard cryptography that ships with Bitcoin already, so there's no increase.
720
00:59:21,171 --> 00:59:31,821
Or you could opt for more expensive post cryptography which could be anywhere from 100 times bigger to maybe 10 times or five times
721
00:59:32,181 --> 00:59:32,461
I don't know.
722
00:59:32,921 --> 00:59:33,781
There's a lot.
723
00:59:33,861 --> 00:59:34,301
There's a lot.
724
00:59:34,581 --> 00:59:35,941
But maybe three or five times?
725
00:59:36,021 --> 00:59:36,501
It depends.
726
00:59:36,501 --> 00:59:39,781
It depends a lot on what we choose to do.
727
00:59:39,781 --> 00:59:54,681
And also, there might be even a future or possibility where we like figure out how to scale post-quantum cryptography on Bitcoin, according to like the proposal that Ethan made earlier this year.
728
00:59:54,801 --> 00:59:56,641
Actually, it's about six months ago.
729
00:59:56,761 --> 00:59:59,381
He talked about something we later called BitZip.
730
01:00:00,021 --> 01:00:09,521
Basically, it's a Starks-based signature aggregation mechanism that could potentially solve the scaling problem of Bitcoin on layer one as well, to some degree.
731
01:00:09,781 --> 01:00:13,741
It might give us like 10x the throughput or bandwidth from Starks.
732
01:00:14,121 --> 01:00:15,801
So that might be one option.
733
01:00:16,801 --> 01:00:19,761
This is hard for me to follow because it's deeply technical.
734
01:00:19,761 --> 01:00:33,381
So when can people expect a wallet that has a service that says quantum proof your coins now and there's a slide and you can just push a button and they move them into a quantum proof address?
735
01:00:33,381 --> 01:00:46,681
Well, the interesting thing about Bitcoin is like making any change to Bitcoin itself is very difficult, which is good and by design and not something we should necessarily disparage it for, because that's one of the bigger reasons why it's valuable.
736
01:00:46,681 --> 01:00:58,441
We can sort of like upgrade the cartography off chain and side chains that are secured by Bitcoin and merge mined with it and even pay miners fees.
737
01:00:59,361 --> 01:01:05,601
But the thing with side chains, of course, is they have different trust assumptions that are less than ideal.
738
01:01:06,141 --> 01:01:09,041
Yeah, and they give the miner another incentive.
739
01:01:09,201 --> 01:01:11,321
And that is also pretty dangerous, isn't it?
740
01:01:11,321 --> 01:01:18,041
Like the concerns around drive chains, for example, like the 300, right?
741
01:01:18,941 --> 01:01:19,301
Yeah.
742
01:01:19,781 --> 01:01:24,061
That could introduce an incentive to perform MAV.
743
01:01:24,061 --> 01:01:35,561
The kind of sidechains I think about, I spend time thinking about are the kind of sidechains that either add new cartography, like novel cartography or scalability for the payments use case.
744
01:01:35,561 --> 01:01:42,761
Like it's if there are if there is like kind of like a bid assets protocol to it, that's that's useful and helpful.
745
01:01:42,761 --> 01:01:46,541
But that's only useful and helpful if you couple it with monetary payments.
746
01:01:46,541 --> 01:01:53,701
And so I think that I don't spend too much time on on other units of account, other fungible token prices.
747
01:01:53,701 --> 01:01:57,821
Right. Or or TGEs. Right. Or that kind of bullshit. Right.
748
01:01:57,821 --> 01:02:07,741
like ICOs, like that's none of that makes any sense to waste an iota of like my precious time
749
01:02:07,741 --> 01:02:13,981
on earth on. Yeah, I find it to be very boring. Well, the use case is scamming people. Yeah, yeah.
750
01:02:15,021 --> 01:02:23,901
And I find it funny because when people say that there's a class of Bitcoiner that refuses to say
751
01:02:23,901 --> 01:02:31,221
all shit coins are scams they say 99.99 of them are scams and therefore they leave out they safe
752
01:02:31,221 --> 01:02:36,741
both ways like because they leave out because there might some be something that isn't a total scam
753
01:02:36,741 --> 01:02:46,001
but why bother i i think it comes from a case a place of intellectual honesty in a way right like
754
01:02:46,001 --> 01:02:52,121
you don't you don't yeah but it's honest and dishonest at the same time because like it's it's
755
01:02:52,121 --> 01:02:58,581
In the same vein of saying that your company is Bitcoin first, like that means shit coins.
756
01:02:59,261 --> 01:03:02,921
If you're Bitcoin first, you are a shit coiner, right?
757
01:03:02,961 --> 01:03:04,581
Because why aren't you Bitcoin only?
758
01:03:04,941 --> 01:03:06,381
That's a new answer.
759
01:03:06,381 --> 01:03:09,401
Because that also sounds a little bit like America first.
760
01:03:09,981 --> 01:03:26,691
And America first is supposed to be more conservative than MAGA like make America great again right So you have MAGA you have America first I don hear of people who are like America only right No I bet those people exist though but I not sure I would want to meet one
761
01:03:27,091 --> 01:03:33,971
It's not a great analogy, but it's just something I came to mind as sort of like a counter to
762
01:03:33,971 --> 01:03:35,791
the maximalist point.
763
01:03:35,791 --> 01:03:43,691
For me personally, I consider myself firmly a Bitcoin maximalist, but I also am a
764
01:03:43,691 --> 01:03:49,591
I ultimately I'm a Bitcoin maximalist, not because I'm a Bitcoin maximalist.
765
01:03:49,731 --> 01:03:54,451
I'm a Bitcoin maximalist because I'm a meritocracy maximalist.
766
01:03:54,551 --> 01:03:54,691
Right.
767
01:03:54,951 --> 01:03:55,131
Yeah.
768
01:03:55,371 --> 01:04:13,371
And I think Bitcoin is the thing that has the most merit and by far because anything that could be implemented on these shitcoin protocols, if it has merit, if has sufficient merit, I think we'll find a way to like make it work with Bitcoin.
769
01:04:13,371 --> 01:04:16,071
in a way that would satisfy the demand regardless using layers.
770
01:04:16,991 --> 01:04:19,791
I'd love to hear your thoughts about the one-shot principle
771
01:04:19,791 --> 01:04:22,751
from my second book, Independence Reimagined,
772
01:04:23,091 --> 01:04:27,311
because I tried to put it into a short couple of sentences,
773
01:04:27,591 --> 01:04:29,271
as few sentences as possible,
774
01:04:29,731 --> 01:04:33,871
why Bitcoin is irreplicable or irreplaceable.
775
01:04:34,411 --> 01:04:36,351
And the one-shot principle goes like this.
776
01:04:36,351 --> 01:04:40,111
It's like absolute mathematical scarcity.
777
01:04:40,431 --> 01:04:42,171
I would say finiteness nowadays,
778
01:04:42,171 --> 01:04:43,671
but it was scarcity back then.
779
01:04:44,011 --> 01:04:45,451
So absolute mathematical scarcity
780
01:04:45,451 --> 01:04:50,371
in a sufficiently decentralized distributed network
781
01:04:50,371 --> 01:04:52,511
was a discovery rather than an invention.
782
01:04:52,751 --> 01:04:54,111
It cannot be discovered again
783
01:04:54,111 --> 01:04:55,951
by people aware of this invention
784
01:04:55,951 --> 01:04:57,691
since the very thing discovered
785
01:04:57,691 --> 01:05:00,411
was resistance to replicability itself.
786
01:05:00,551 --> 01:05:02,291
Would you agree or disagree with that?
787
01:05:03,131 --> 01:05:04,911
Well, I think I would agree with that
788
01:05:04,911 --> 01:05:08,911
so long as Bitcoin retains its position
789
01:05:08,911 --> 01:05:10,831
as the thing that is successful
790
01:05:10,831 --> 01:05:20,691
Yeah, because the interesting thing, when I think about that, if it turns out to be untrue, then none of it can work.
791
01:05:20,931 --> 01:05:24,931
Because if you can replace Bitcoin, then the whole purpose is gone.
792
01:05:25,011 --> 01:05:29,291
Because you can just replace the next thing with the next thing with the next thing.
793
01:05:29,771 --> 01:05:32,711
Either you have this finite thing or you don't.
794
01:05:33,711 --> 01:05:40,091
Either you figured out resistance to replicability or you didn't.
795
01:05:40,091 --> 01:05:56,891
Do you think the war of the currents is a good analogy, like how AC sort of won out over DC because it can go further without attenuation losses, at least with older technology?
796
01:05:57,671 --> 01:06:08,531
I haven't thought of it from that perspective, but it's a quite good analogy, even though AC versus DC is one out of two and not one amongst 5,000.
797
01:06:08,531 --> 01:06:22,911
I would like the wheel analogy. So like you can construct a hexagonal wheel, but the circle is the best way to construct a wheel and Bitcoin is the best way to construct like to construct a solid finance.
798
01:06:22,911 --> 01:06:27,231
either because even though like like there's the wheels well in a way it's it might actually be a
799
01:06:27,231 --> 01:06:33,951
good analogy because okay so let's say the wheel shape is bitcoin not necessarily like the circular
800
01:06:33,951 --> 01:06:42,271
shape like a stone a stone wheel in the in and a a good year tire it are uh essentially the same
801
01:06:42,271 --> 01:06:48,671
thing for in that analogy because it it follows a a specification yeah yeah yeah but but but to me
802
01:06:48,671 --> 01:06:54,431
Bitcoin is not the wheel, but the Bitcoin is the circular shape that shapes the wheel.
803
01:06:54,431 --> 01:06:56,171
And the wheel is money.
804
01:06:56,171 --> 01:07:02,711
So you can use other money and you can use other shapes for wheels, but one shape is
805
01:07:02,711 --> 01:07:04,711
obviously better.
806
01:07:04,711 --> 01:07:05,711
That's the analogy.
807
01:07:05,711 --> 01:07:19,100
It a bit of a weak analogy but yeah It will also be complicated in the Ancapistan utopia right Because they don have roads and they all fly in UFOs or whatever
808
01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:23,100
because we get the deep state technology that they've been suppressing all this time.
809
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,180
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
810
01:07:25,180 --> 01:07:27,260
I forgot that we don't have roads in Ankapistan.
811
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:27,980
Damn it.
812
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:29,200
We have to start over again.
813
01:07:29,620 --> 01:07:32,520
The other analogy would be like discovering America.
814
01:07:32,700 --> 01:07:34,420
Discovering Bitcoin is discovering America.
815
01:07:34,580 --> 01:07:35,400
Can you do it twice?
816
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:41,160
Well, a lot of people argue that it has been done several times by different groups of people.
817
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:41,780
But yeah.
818
01:07:42,340 --> 01:07:42,500
Yeah.
819
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:44,200
Well, anyway.
820
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,940
That is also a good analogy in a few different ways.
821
01:07:48,060 --> 01:07:55,340
Also, because as Bitcoin ages, we have sort of this thing where we sort of have the eternal September.
822
01:07:55,780 --> 01:08:00,540
We have people learning, you know, that they'll learn about Bitcoin.
823
01:08:00,660 --> 01:08:02,620
And the next day, like, I'm new to Bitcoin.
824
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:03,460
I'm here to fix it.
825
01:08:03,460 --> 01:08:03,720
Right.
826
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:10,780
And like it's just like this tells all this time of just, you know, like seasons, newcomers, things like that.
827
01:08:12,540 --> 01:08:17,440
And a way like the discovery of America has happened several times in history.
828
01:08:17,980 --> 01:08:27,780
The Chinese like arguably knew about America, but then they burned their merchant fleet inexplicably because I guess they were afraid of, you know, too much, you know.
829
01:08:27,780 --> 01:08:30,540
and then there was
830
01:08:30,540 --> 01:08:32,200
you know the Vikings
831
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,360
there was of course the Anunnaki
832
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:36,360
and the
833
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:37,940
I'm sure you're aware of the Talosians
834
01:08:37,940 --> 01:08:40,140
the Atlanteans
835
01:08:40,140 --> 01:08:41,060
the Lemurians
836
01:08:41,060 --> 01:08:43,220
the Klingon, the Dothraki
837
01:08:43,220 --> 01:08:45,500
everyone was there first
838
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:46,300
the Hutts
839
01:08:46,300 --> 01:08:47,100
yeah
840
01:08:47,100 --> 01:08:52,580
yeah well
841
01:08:52,580 --> 01:08:55,320
is there anything we haven't covered yet
842
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:56,400
that you want to talk about
843
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:57,760
before we wrap this thing up?
844
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:57,920
Oh yes, the Agarthans.
845
01:08:58,180 --> 01:08:59,640
I forgot about the Agarthans.
846
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:00,960
Agarthans?
847
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:01,560
They also have caverns.
848
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:04,240
Agarthans have caverns, okay.
849
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:12,180
I guess that was adding to the previous point.
850
01:09:12,460 --> 01:09:13,660
It's a rabbit hole.
851
01:09:13,820 --> 01:09:14,260
It's a rabbit hole.
852
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:15,540
All right, all right.
853
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:16,200
Literally.
854
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:18,400
Yeah.
855
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:19,740
Oh, I love this conversation,
856
01:09:19,900 --> 01:09:22,160
but I'm going to have to wrap this up pretty soon.
857
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:23,920
It's getting pretty late here
858
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:25,820
and I have to get back to my family.
859
01:09:25,820 --> 01:09:31,080
But before we wrap up, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you want to mention?
860
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:45,480
If anybody is curious about the work we're doing to make sure Bitcoin is ready against these deep state faggots who broke our crypto, please look into our work on bit360.org.
861
01:09:46,820 --> 01:09:49,440
I also have a substack, cryptoquick.substack.com.
862
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,780
And on XM, I'm CryptoQuick as well.
863
01:09:52,780 --> 01:10:01,340
you're saying that very quickly maybe that's deliberate crypto quick yeah crypto yeah yeah
864
01:10:01,340 --> 01:10:11,580
yeah yeah and uh also on nostr my endpub is uh npub1 qq it's got a bunch of other yeah yeah yeah
865
01:10:11,580 --> 01:10:20,140
i'm sure people can find you there they have to hunt for you yeah so good uh hunter uh my gay
866
01:10:20,140 --> 01:10:22,000
furry friend, quantum
867
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,000
resistant friend. This has
868
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,140
been a great conversation and I hope
869
01:10:26,140 --> 01:10:28,040
to see you in real life. Are you coming back to
870
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:29,340
El Salvador, by the way, in January?
871
01:10:30,340 --> 01:10:31,900
Not in January. That's too soon,
872
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:33,280
unfortunately. All right.
873
01:10:33,460 --> 01:10:35,920
But yeah, I'm sure
874
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:37,900
we bump into each other at one of these
875
01:10:37,900 --> 01:10:39,880
conferences and you're welcome back
876
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:40,380
on the show.
877
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:43,980
Looking forward to
878
01:10:43,980 --> 01:10:45,280
our next conversation already.
879
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:46,840
This has been great.
880
01:10:47,700 --> 01:10:48,900
Thank you very much.
881
01:10:50,140 --> 01:11:20,120
Thank you.