Dev Life S5E19 | Re Engineering Git with PJ Hagerty

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Get always drew him back. He's part of the core team,
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and his big frustration is like, it's a super powerful
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tool under the hood, but the workflow is kind of
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focused on a Linux mailing list era thing from twenty
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years ago. Serena Williams has a coach. Why don't you
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have a coach?
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That's all.
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A therapist is someone who's gonna sit there, listen to
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you and give you a few tools to make things
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a little bit better. There are probably about fifty top
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notched deeveral people in the world, and out of that,
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probably about thirty percent of them are looking for jobs
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right now.
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Wow.
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Do you think that AI is playing a part in that?
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Definitely, it definitely is.
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Because people are saying things like, well, you know, I
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could just use this to write off my blog posts
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and fix my documentation and everything's going to be fine. Well,
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someone has to read that and the logic of well,
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I'm just building content for the content to be consumed
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by an LLM. That's super dangerous. That's a really bad
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like feedback loop. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Devlife podcast.
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We are really excited today because Matt and I have
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on the show someone who's going to talk to us
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about something we all know.
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But do we really know it? And that is GIT, right,
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Like we all know GET, but then when it comes
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down to it, like how many of us are really
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comfortable with actually doing all of those GET commands? And
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I mean it can be overwhelming at times, right. So
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what we want to do, though, is talk to someone
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who is working on a really cool new change management tool.
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And the ironic thing here to me and maybe not ironic,
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but I think the interesting thing is a better word,
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is that the guy who really he co founded or
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founded GitHub and he now has started this other company
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and it's all about this change management. So we're gonna
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learn more about this tool, but wanted to talk to
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someone that really is just immersed in it and knows
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all about this product. So we're excited to have on
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the show today, PJ Haggerty. So welcome to the show, PJ.
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Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
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Did I say that right? Well, see, the founder or
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co founder.
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Of the show, Scott was.
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Scott was the co founder of GitHub with Tom Preston
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Warner and Chris Wayne's Wrath and they were they were
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three kids with a dream to make it possible to
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share your open source code.
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So cool. So yeah, like lots of history. They're really
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excited to learn more about it.
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Matt.
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How how good would you say your GET skills are?
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Well, I consider myself a GET wizard, but I think
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I'm about to be humbled. You're really excited about for this.
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Okay, well, let me introduce you a little bit more PJ,
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and then I'll have you kind of give an introduction
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to yourself as well. But you started as a software developer,
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went from that to going into being a developer evangelist
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and then a developer advocate. One thing that I want
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to talk about maybe a little bit later in the
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episode is that you're actually a board member at a
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group called Open Sourcing Mental Health, which I think is
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really cool. So I want to learn more about that.
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And currently you are the head of developer relations and
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community relations for Get Bucket or Get Butler, Get Butler.
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But yeah, so excited to have you. What a awesome
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you know projection with your career there, But tell us
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a little bit more about that, like how did you
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go from developer to where you are now?
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And yeah, I mean it was kind of it was
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It was a little bit accentible.
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I was, you know, as a developer.
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I was originally when I started my career as a
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Windows developer, because that was the job you got, like
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you graduated college and someone handed you a Windows machine
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and said, now go make visual Basic and that's what
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we did. But I was working at a place doing
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visual Fox Pro and they switched to Ruby, and that's
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when I started getting into community stuff because Ruby has
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such a brilliant and vibrant community, which.
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Is also kind of how I got involved using Git.
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Up to that point in time, it was kind of like,
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you know, you had SVN, which was okay, but it
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was a lot of like you know, full trunk shifting
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and emailing people and being like I'm done, you can
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play now and get really changed all that. So it's
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interesting to be there at the beginning. I you know,
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developer relations wasn't really a plan that happened. I just
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kind of, you know, was at a conference and someone
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convinced me to do a lightning talk and I said, cool,
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I'll do it. It was kind of like a dare
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almost and I finished that and I was like, well
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I spoke at a conference.
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Check that off.
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The old resume I don't ever have to do that again,
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and someone was like, that was cool. Can you do
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that as a full talk at our conference? Which I
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do another And I was working at the time at
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a company called engine Yard, and my coworker Aman Leonard,
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came to me and said, Hey, do you want to
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start a commun unity team? And I said, what's a
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community team? He goes, I have no idea, let's figure
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it out. So we piece that together and we put
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together what, according to Wikipedia is like one of the
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first ever Devrell teams in the modern era. And then
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of course we went to get Up and showed them
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how to do it. We went to Twilio, and we
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went to New Relic and we're like, this is how
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you do This is so great, and everybody was like, yes,
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let's get in touch with our communities, and it just
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kind of took off from there. You know, I've I've
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worked Devrell at large corporations like IBM and Spotify and
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small startups and now I'm back in a small startup
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get Butler's only about twelve thirteen people right now, trying
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to solve the problems that developers have. That's like, that's
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mainly the goal. So I love being a part of it.
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I just love interacting with communities and developers all over
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the world to see that, you know, our problems are
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often so similar but requires some of the most specific solutions.
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Yeah, and I want to definitely get into that too,
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like what problems are you solving? But yeah, let's kind
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of hold off on that for men.
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Awesome. Well, I mean I remember the days when I
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was using file Zilla and we were like, you know,
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taking turns, pushing and yeah.
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All that kind of stuff. And then yeah, at least
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from that nightmare, that nightmare is over.
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Yeah, right, and the first time you use GitHub it
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was amazing. And then I went back to I've done
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a lot of game dev and you know, using like
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Plastic SCM and stuff, and I'm like, give me get.
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Hub back, where's my GitHub?
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Yeah, but I'm really excited to hear about get Butler
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because I can think of some problems I have with
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with GitHub. But before we dive into that, I just
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i'd love to hear an overview of like what it
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solves and what's special about it.
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Yeah, And I mean what it really solves is is
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kind of the advanced Git functionality, Like you know, the
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short version. You know, we talked about Scott co found
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a GitHub. He literally wrote the book on gitt. It's
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called professional Get or pro get. He you know, focused
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on some other things in between GitHub and and get butler,
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but like get always drew him back. He's part of
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the core team, and his big frustration is like it's
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a super powerful tool under the hood, but the workflow
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is kind of focused on a Linux mailing list era
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thing from twenty years ago, and it's you know, we're
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not in the twenty years ago anymore. The tooling hasn't
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really kept up. So it would be good if we
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could make something that between the I've finished writing my
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code and I've pushed to my forge, like get up
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or get lab or bitbucket or wherever you're going, you
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have some a tool that's easy to follow, like you
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can see your commits, you can use advanced functionality, you
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don't have to read his Like oddly he made a
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tool that's so you don't have to read his book.
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He made it possible so you don't have to read
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his book. And there were tools out there, but it
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was kind of like saying like I'm you know, I'm
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a I'm a car driver, and I've decided to drive
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to design a car that will fix my problems as
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opposed to I understand everything about the internals of building
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a car, Let me build a better car. And that's
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that's one of the big differences is we are at
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people that deeply care about get in the way GET functions,
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and we want you to use like the best GET
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functionality you possibly can. And that's the focus of Get
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Butler very cool.
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So if you could give I don't know, three to
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five high points of like what you know, how does
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it improve the developer experience? Like what are those three
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or five things that like right out of the box
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you'd say it fixes these things?
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Well, I think I think one of the biggest things
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that it fixes is your understanding of how to use
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things beyond those six GIT functions that we use every day.
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Most people know like commit, clone, push, pull, They might
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know stash, They probably know how to make a comment,
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they know how to check things out beyond that, like
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you know, God forbid, a conflict happens and then they're like,
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oh my god, what do I do? And panic sets
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in and you try to google a GET command and
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it's like okay, So it's going to be get reflog,
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dash pe da da da, And you're like, I don't
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even know what half these things mean. I'm hoping it's
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the best thing. But I got this off of a
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stack over flow article in twenty twelve. Maybe it's right,
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maybe it's not. But get Butler, whether the GUI or
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the CLI, like, because we have both options, you can say, okay, easily,
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I can see the conflict here, I can resolve it
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in this desktop app that I'm using. I don't need
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to know. I don't need to go by and read
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Scott's book.
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But maybe you should.
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But you know, I don't have to do that in
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order to actually like interact, and you just get in
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a more advanced way. So I mean, I think, and
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the way we do that is like some of the
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features of people were like, is we have parallel branches,
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so you can work on multiple independent branches from a
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single working directory at the same time. No slashing, there's
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no switching. You're editing the files and get Butler just
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kind of routes the changes to the right place the
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right branches, whereas traditional Get forces you into one branch
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at a time. You can only use one branch at time, Right,
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I love that. Yeah, that's that's one of the to me,
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the biggest differences. That's what makes me most happy when
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I started, Well.
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A handful of time is really and you guys have
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probably experienced this too, where like you'll be working on
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something and then you're waiting for the PR to get
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approved on it, and in the meantime you're like trying
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to work on a different branch, but then that never
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gets approved for whatever reason, there's like a massive delay.
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So like what you're explaining just sounds really nice, and yeah.
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Yeah, it really prevents that whole like waiting around thing
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like the old x K CDA. What are you guys
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doing compiling and their sword fighting on their chairs, like
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oh carry on, Like we can't Like maybe maybe that's
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not great. Maybe we solve the wrong problem because now
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we can't goof off at work anymore. In all seriousness,
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Like it's a frustration when you're like, great, I finished
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this thing. I want to do this other thing and
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you're waiting for someone else to approve, or you're waiting
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for someone else to do a code review. Like what
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a pain that is. It'd be much easier if you're like, great,
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I'm done with that, moving on to this or you
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know what, I can now add something that I finished
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a branch b over here because this still isn't approved.
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Let me just slip that in real quick for the
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you know, without having to do like a whole split
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and worry about you know, overstuffing a commit or anything
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like that.
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Yeah, well, so that sounds really cool.
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Like I like, I use to get.
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Cli a lot to like or the get ui tools
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to like push and pull a lot. But then you know,
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you got a cherry pick or yeah, like do something
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a little more complicated. So you mentioned that there's tools
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that help, like with some of the more complicated functions
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that are that's like an app?
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Yeah, absolutely cool.
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What does that look like?
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So what that looks like? It kind of looks like
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a desktop app. It almost looks like a bunch of
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stacks and everything in this like little crates and a stack,
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and each crate in that stack is a different commit
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or a different stage of a commit, and you can
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have multiple of that going on. You can pull down,
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you know, make sure you have the most recent without
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causing any collisions with what you have.
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And it just makes it's it's a better layout. It's
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a better.
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Visual tool, and if you need to do something like
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cherry pick, you can literally just drag and drop.
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You don't need to like words, what's my shaw? What?
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What hash is this spot? I don't remember the exact
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cup of name. You don't have to look any of
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that up.
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It's like drag, drop, done, moving on to the next
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thing I need to do. That's what it's That's what
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all developer tools should be about, making it as easy
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as possible for the developer thing they want to do,
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which is make their apps better.
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Yeah, amazing, Well, I'm definitely gonna try this out. Very cool.
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We do we do have I if you are if
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you are a lover of the cl I, we we
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do have a cl I tool that was built. It's
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installable on Mac, Linux and Windows. If that's if that's
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what you prefer, you're welcome to do it. It comes
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with also some nice visualizations that that GET kind of
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doesn't have, Like you can you can run the command
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it's like get update decorate. It's like a four step
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command to get like the lines of what's going on
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and where your branches are with ours. I think it's
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just like you know, get update or it's a single
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or BUTT update because all of our commands are BUTT,
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because we wanted to keep it three letters, just like
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it's like just like get, which I thought was an
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interesting choice only because it sounds like you're pleading your
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You're like, but push, but stash, please just stash. So yeah,
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I suggested maybe we should use pls as please.
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But we went with butt instead.
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That's awesome. Oh go ahead, Okay, I was just gonna say,
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what other dev metrics do you care most about at
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get out there at.
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The moment that the things that we care the most
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about are people using it, and that's the biggest thing
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to us, Like we're obviously we're concerned about people that
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are getting errors or people that are having issues, but
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our biggest thing is to get more people using it.
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So we understand what those edge cases are that we
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didn't think to build for. And I think that this
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is this is something that a lot of actual dev
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tools miss they build and they say, okay, great, so
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we've built for this. And one of the first times
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we actually saw this was a lot of people are
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using AI these days. I don't know if you've heard,
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but but AI, I guess is a big deal. People
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like to write articles about it, but you know, they're
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using like cloud code and codex and all of that stuff,
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and they want that integration throughout their whole workflow, and
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so we're like, what if we made that possible. So
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we've actually had two iterations on it. The first one
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was kind of like, you know, I was explaining how
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everything's kind of in a branch and there was like
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another branch that was here's your here's your code companion
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or your your AI assistant, and that didn't We didn't
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really like that. People didn't really enjoy it. So we
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actually integrated directly into the interface so it made it easier.
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But like that's that's kind of like how you you know,
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our thing for the developer experience, right. I was getting
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as much feedback as we can to say, and we've
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had a lot of people say like, hey, like listen,
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I don't love the guy. So we're like, great, we
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built a CLI and they're like, Okay, I didn't see
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that coming and I'll try it again. And that's like,
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that's what I love about being on like a fast,
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flexible team. We're very very open to feedback and hearing
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like what people think about it.
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Okay, so you mentioned the guey so cause and I'll
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kind of backtrack, like as I was doing some research
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for the episode, Like you know, most get clients are
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just rappers, right, but get butler seems to be a
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wrapper around like a new mental model of how this works.
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So can you explain the difference between like a get
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backed tool versus the standard get gooey.
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Yeah, So, I mean one of the big things is
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like a standard get gouey is is a visual skin
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on top of get command. So you'll still be doing get, checkout,
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get stash, get merged. The tool just gives you buttons
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instead of a term. That's the only difference. And oh,
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in a way exactly exactly. Yeah, the mental model is
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exactly the same as is with command line get one branch,
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checked out at a time, switch to work on something else,
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dasher stuff, et cetera. Tools like get crack in source
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tree fork. They're making it prettier but not different. Okay,
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Now with get butler, we're get back. Like we used
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another phrase get back. So Get is the storage engine,
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but get butler actually defines its workflow on top of that,
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so it reads and write gets objects directly but it
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doesn't just do like one to one mapping of GET commands.
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So like, instead of like I'm on branch X, we
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say it's I have changes and I'm sorting them into lanes.
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Instead of stats, switch work, switch back, pop, you just
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work on multiple things at once in the same directory,
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and get Butler keeps track of all of what's going
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on everything that belongs there. Instead of like I need
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to understand get index head detached states you think in
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terms of what you're changing and where it should go.
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So like, the best analogy is like a standard get
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guey is like putting a nice dashboard on this on
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the on the same car, whereas get Butler is a
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different car that happens to run on the same fuel.
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And I don't know why I'm so full of car
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references today. I was thinking about cars today.
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I'm to be clear, I'm not a car guy, but
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I will I'm an analogy guy, so we'll go with that.
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I appreciate that. I think analogies help a lot.
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I love it. Yeah, that's great analogy. So I've also
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heard that you replace the local main branch with a
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target branch.
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Is this true?
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I don't think I don't know if I would say
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it's true. Yes, But the idea is, the reason why
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we say target branch instead of main is because you
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can have multiple branches you're working on at the same type.
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So your target branch is the one you are literally
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focusing on right this second, whereas you could have several
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branches that you can target and they might not all
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be part of the main branch. Does that make sense?
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So we're not we're not.
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We're not really trying to like rename the way things
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things are being named. It's more we want you to
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focus more on the grander level, the larger level of
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how you're building your application, how you're how you're organizing
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your code.
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Gotcha.
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So I mean at the end of the day, there's
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still going to be a main branch that everything comes
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in two together, but you're you guys have more of
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a mindset of focusing on I guess productivity branches that
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you're not as much merging into. Maine is focusing on
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an area or something.
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Like that, exactly exactly. Yeah.
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The idea is, you know, going back to that that
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kind of you know, get you focused on one branch
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at the time. We don't want you to focus on
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one branch at the time.
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One.
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We want you to focus on getting things done at
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the time they need to get done, so by by
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kind of like retermined re re I don't know how
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much like reimagining the way this works is instead of
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saying I'm on main and I'm only making changes to main,
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or I'm on DEV and I'm only making changes to DEV,
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you're just making changes. Don't don't really worry about that
401
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until you're ready to push. Worry about where it goes later.
402
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It's not important right now.
403
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I mean, as you're saying that, like I'm getting merged
404
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conflict like paranoia right now.
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Yeah, but that's one of the great things, Like you
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can see it. It's almost like precious a little bit,
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like you can see it before it's going to happen,
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so it's super easy to avoid, like you're avoiding friction.
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That's what it's all about.
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That sounds amazing.
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Okay, And then you also, but you mentioned this strange
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thing called.
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AI and macky thing, just the wackediness of a.
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Matt and I love Cursor like we are true Cursor believers.
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So I guess this is kind of a two part
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question though, How is like standard GET often a bottleneck
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for these AI agents, and then how does get Butler
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help solve that in ways or does so?
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I actually worked with the AI team and IBM for
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a long time, so I got very familiar with how
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how these lms understand GET and understanding that a like
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most of them haven't. The lms haven't ingested Scott's book,
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They've ingested the actions of many developers. And since many
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developers only have those six GET commands, that's about what
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the what the LM knows, and I think that that's key.
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Now we've fed into into the the interaction we have
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through like MCP servers and various various things, and through
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RAG ways to better use Git butler, better use Git
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when you're using Cursor or Claude or chat ept, whatever
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it is that you're using, so that you can better
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leverage it. And that that, I think is like one
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of the key differences to a lot of things that
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are out there right now.
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From your perspective, working so closely with something as fundamental
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to programming as GET, but also working at a company
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using AI, what are your thoughts about how AI will
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keep evolving and how it will change our jobs? A
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software engineers.
439
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Well, I think we're still I'm going to be completely
440
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candid about this.
441
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I think we're still in the hype phase.
442
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I think we're still in you know, in twenty thirteen,
443
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everyone's like, blockchain is going to change the world. Well
444
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it didn't, at least not from the good. We're in
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a phase where we're I still don't even like to
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call it AI because it's not artificial intelligence. It doesn't reason,
447
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it doesn't think. It just it's a really easy to
448
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interact with database. You can write questions instead of writing
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SQL queries like it. But it's still, at its heart,
450
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it's just a database. It only has the information it has.
451
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It's always at least six months out of date. So
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I think that as we progress, these tools are going
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to get better for developers and less. There's gonna be
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less to focused on that consumer market that everyone's always chasing,
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or the enterprise market or whatever you want to call it,
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where you're like, oh, I'm going to release this tool
457
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and everyone's going to be dating in AI and everyone's
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going to be banking with AI, and no, they're not.
459
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Like there's a lot of trust issues here that we
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really need to focus on. Before we ever get regular
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people to use AI. It just it doesn't work. That
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adoption is never that way, and I think that, you know,
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it's going to be another five years before AI really
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starts to make sense in our daily work. Unfortunately, in
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the meantime, all of these hot take articles are going
466
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to come out on LinkedIn and Hacker News and be like, well,
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we're replacing all our developers with a I we just
468
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laid off four thousand people.
469
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Oh way to go.
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That's brilliant. You're going to hire them all back. I mean,
471
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like true story. When I was at Spotify, they decided
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I shouldn't say that. One person decided, who happened to
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be the founder of the company, that he was really
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into AI and he wanted to put all of his
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tokens on AI. That was an unintended pun. We want
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to put all his chips on AI, and he said.
477
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So I went into chat GPT, I listed the names
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of everyone who works here and I had it let
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go of fifteen hundred people and those jobs will be
480
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replaced by II can play late random. So I woke
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up on a Monday morning think I was going to
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have a conversation for my yearly raised instead, I had
483
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a conversation about all of your stuff shutting down in
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fifteen minutes. You've been let go that being as it may.
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Three months later he came out and said, but that
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was a huge mistake. We lost so much productivity. The
487
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:14.000
app got so much crappier, All kinds of garbage music
488
00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.759
was being loaded up into Spotify because AI agents can
489
00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:19.799
just push that stuff without checking, and there was so
490
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:23.359
much negativity. Now that was three years ago, well two
491
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.160
and a half years ago, and that's like, that's kind
492
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:28.559
of a wild thing. But I think that's what a
493
00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:30.039
lot of companies are running into now.
494
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:30.880
Now.
495
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.480
Those are who are developers. We understand how to use
496
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.960
a tool like it, and we also use it very trempidentially.
497
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:37.359
We don't.
498
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.559
Developers don't trust technology because we build it, so of
499
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.920
course we don't. It's like having a car mechanic who
500
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.920
rides a bicycle, like they got it. They understand why
501
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.160
they ride a bicycle because you can't. But it's the
502
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:50.960
same idea, Like, I think there's gonna be a lot
503
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.440
of cool tools that come out in the next four
504
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.880
to five years. And I like Cerson, I like Windsurf,
505
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.319
but you can't trust them yet. Hopefully they'll become a
506
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.880
little more foundation, a little more stable. We can worry
507
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.359
less about hallucination. But as far as like actual AI
508
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.839
that's going to reason and say I can actually build
509
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.640
this this SaaS app for you immediately. We're not there yet,
510
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.759
And I know a lot of people argue, well, maybe
511
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:13.079
you're not using the most bleeding edge versions. It's like,
512
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.400
it doesn't it doesn't matter. It's still just a database
513
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.200
right now. It's a toddler. It says what you say,
514
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.079
it shouldn't say or should say. It just repeats what
515
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.480
it thinks you wants you to hear.
516
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.759
I love that. Yeah, I think that's very insightful. One
517
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.079
question I'm kind of wondering too, is like, as you've
518
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:35.160
been describing get Butler, what it does you know? I
519
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:38.039
think and I'm kind of coming from a perspective of like,
520
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.880
part of my career journey has been that I've done
521
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:48.799
technical program management as well and seeing everything behind the
522
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.880
scenes for what it takes to adopt a new tool
523
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.400
or technology at a company. Right Like, it's not just
524
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.039
a simple matter of like, hey, manager, I really like
525
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.000
this tool, let's adopt it. No, it has to go
526
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:07.400
through finance, legal, security, you know, the managers themselves. Like
527
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.559
there's so many layers of how this works. But how
528
00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:16.200
can especially with something that is so fundamentally part of
529
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.799
programming get you know, like these commands in this process, Like,
530
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:24.079
how does someone go about getting their team to see
531
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:28.240
the benefits of get butler and really you know, getting
532
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.160
behind adopting it into their company.
533
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:30.960
Yeah.
534
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.279
I think I think part of it is going to
535
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:33.880
be kind of the openness of get Butler and the
536
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.039
fact that I mean, right now it's free, and any
537
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.880
manager or finance person loves to hear that word. So
538
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.079
I think the adoption part of it is really going
539
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:46.079
to be similar to what Slack was like now, if
540
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:48.440
you remember if you were working as a dev back
541
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:53.680
in Geez twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, somewhere around there, like
542
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.359
there were there were lots of things that some people
543
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.279
were still using IRC, some people were using Skype, but
544
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.920
Slack was like this brand new free thing that came
545
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:02.880
up and it was just like, yes, that's what we
546
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:05.200
were looking for, thank you. And a lot of places
547
00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:07.680
it was developers that adopted and then then rolled up
548
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.079
the developer first model, And I think that We're in
549
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.839
a very similar situation where you can say, here's a
550
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.920
developer tool, because Slack was originally a developer tool that
551
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.920
you can use. It's going to make you faster, it's
552
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.319
going to make you more proficient. You can worry about less,
553
00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:22.839
you know, collisions, you can worry about less conflicts. You
554
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.759
don't need to have someone who is constantly doing the
555
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:28.440
code of view. Your ci will will love you for it,
556
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.519
like it's a no brainer. It's just a matter of
557
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.480
getting it in more people's hands for them to see it.
558
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:36.759
And I think that in most technical companies assume that
559
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:38.680
they do the right thing. Now, not everyone does the
560
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.240
right thing, but usually you know, you've progressed up that ladder.
561
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.000
So even if you're somewhere in you know, the tech
562
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.559
leadership department, you know what GIN is. You've worked in
563
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:48.240
tech for the last twenty years. You know what GIN is.
564
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.599
So saying like, hey, we can make it easier, people
565
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.599
will probably just out there and be like, yeah, okay, great,
566
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.000
And that's that's I think where we're going to focus
567
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.960
is like, listen, this is this isn't just about making
568
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.400
your life easier. This is about efficiency. This is about
569
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:04.039
advanced functionality without having to worry about it, you know,
570
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:05.559
and I know some people are you know, will worry.
571
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.759
They'll say, well, that's another level of abstraction. It's like, yeah,
572
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.680
but we're not writing code for bare metal anymore. Like
573
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.559
we're not there. It's time to like work on things
574
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.319
where we can focus on just building the thing we
575
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.680
want to build, not worry about the tools that we're using.
576
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.599
We get the easiest set of tools we can have,
577
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:21.599
and I think get Butler fits into that bucket.
578
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:28.440
With AI, can I prompt my LLM to handle you know,
579
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.480
a merged conflict or a cherry pick or something like
580
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:31.960
that using get Butler.
581
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.400
That's something we're working on. That is that is a
582
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.720
contextual thing. It depends on how much of an integration
583
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:41.960
you have with your GET flow, your GET workflow with
584
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:45.720
your AI. We've seen people do that. It's kind of
585
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.640
going back to the idea it's a matter of trust.
586
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:49.160
How much do you trust an AI to cha it
587
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.200
properly cherry pick and properly merge things. It can be done.
588
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.400
I don't recommend it, but it is possible. But yeah, yeah,
589
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:58.839
that's something like as more and more, as these tools
590
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.440
get better and better, I think that's something more and
591
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.160
more we look into better integration with each of them.
592
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:03.640
Yeah.
593
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:04.000
Yeah.
594
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.920
Just the other day I tried to split a pr
595
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.960
into two prs, one front end, one back end with
596
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:13.279
with AI and that was it was a disaster. Ended
597
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:14.839
up with a lot of back end on the front end.
598
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.920
I'm just like, Okay, gotta do it myself. It would
599
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.480
have been nice to have get Butler for.
600
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:24.319
That to I'm someone that is I don't know, I
601
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:27.880
don't know if it's old school I maybe also because
602
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:31.359
I believe so much in education and like really mastering
603
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:35.119
the fundamentals of things. But do you worry that if
604
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:39.200
we're using a tool like get Butler that we will
605
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:42.480
kind of lose the ability to run these get commands
606
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.240
on our own, Like do you know what I mean?
607
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:46.680
To a degree, Yeah, I think that.
608
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.119
I think that the the there's going to be a dichotomy. Well,
609
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.079
I hate to say good dichotomy is a terrible word,
610
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:54.119
but which already exists.
611
00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:54.480
Kind of.
612
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:56.400
You have people that are like full of advanced GIT
613
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.400
users who understand the finer points of get and they
614
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.519
can sure they can do the same six commands everybody else,
615
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.160
but they can also do the other two hundred commands
616
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.920
that no one thinks about, and there's people who do
617
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.759
the same six commands every day. What I've actually seen
618
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.480
before I even joined git butler, it was a lot
619
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:12.920
of the younger developers aren't even getting those six commands.
620
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.400
They're getting no Git training at all.
621
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.480
They're getting told use copilot or use you know, use
622
00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.559
the GitHub desktop app, which is which is like you said,
623
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:24.359
it's just a wrapper around Git. And I've seen like
624
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.279
and that app is not great. Sorry, sorry to poop
625
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.440
on the GitHub desktop app, but it's it's not a
626
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.880
great experience. And if you make a mistake or there's
627
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.599
a merged merge conflict boom, you're you're screwed.
628
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:36.759
Now.
629
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.599
You need to know get. If you don't know any Git,
630
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:41.480
you are in big trouble. So that's that's kind of
631
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:43.440
what we want to help. We don't think the people
632
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.000
that are advanced Git users are gonna like super adopt
633
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:47.960
kit butler, but they do seem to like it. We
634
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:50.039
get a lot of advanced Git get users that are
635
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:51.240
just like, it's a really cool tool.
636
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.359
We want to be involved, but I you know, it's
637
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:54.400
it's it's a worry that I.
638
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:55.920
Had like back in the days when I moved from
639
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.680
visual Fox part Ruby, and everybody's like, well, you don't
640
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.000
have to write SQL commands in rooms be because in
641
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:04.519
Rails you have active directory, you have active database. Okay,
642
00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.440
that's cool at all, But like when a problem comes up, shit,
643
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.559
you know how to write a SEQL command. Now, almost
644
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.319
no one knows how to write a sequel command. Like
645
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:14.960
it's not common just about anywhere because database maintenance isn't
646
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.319
really the most important part of development anymore. We've abstracted
647
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:20.759
a lot of that away. And I don't think it's
648
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.559
it's a matter of do we have to worry about
649
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:26.519
people being educated understanding how to do it as much
650
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.640
as as long as there's people who can escalate to,
651
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:32.960
we're fine. And I think that though there will always
652
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.279
be people that we can escalate to who are like, okay,
653
00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:37.799
that tool's networking, let me show you how that works.
654
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:38.640
Very cool.
655
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:43.039
Well, so we are big Angular fans, obviously, Broke and
656
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.160
I are both Angular gdes, And I mean, maybe this
657
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.680
is kind of just an obvious question, but do you
658
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:53.960
think what's stacked, Like, is there any benefit to an
659
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:58.720
Angular engineer over a different type of engineer in using
660
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.279
get butler, or is it just you know, whatever kind
661
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:03.200
of code you're doing, it will work.
662
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:06.400
I think for anyone who's using git, like it's really
663
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:07.400
anyone who's using git.
664
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:08.880
You know, we've we've.
665
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.000
Gone to different communities, different events with people who are
666
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:17.240
your Go, Ruby, Python, Php, all kinds of flavors of JavaScript,
667
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:19.480
and we always get the same response, which is like,
668
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.119
this is really cool. I don't like to focus on GET.
669
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:24.680
I focus on the things that I know this helps
670
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.359
me out. So I think that like it it's not
671
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.319
about the language, And I think it's very rare to
672
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.799
find any kind of like large scale team or even
673
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.960
medium scale team that's writing purely in anything. I mean,
674
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.359
we we're even using like a bunch of different stuff
675
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.200
like across across our platform, and it's a very small platform.
676
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:44.079
So it's not like a huge surprise that I think
677
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:46.839
developers find, like when you build a developer tool and
678
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.640
you make it as general as possible that it's valuable
679
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:50.119
to everyone.
680
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:56.599
Yeah, I guess my last question is like large file,
681
00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:59.839
Like I don't get how get has like get large
682
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.759
files and that never has worked out super well for me.
683
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.880
Is there anything with get butler to help manage like
684
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.440
large file type repos.
685
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:12.400
Yeah, we are.
686
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.599
We are working on making it so that larger repos
687
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:18.720
and larger, larger branches even so larger files are more
688
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.799
easy to manage and clearer because, like you said, get
689
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:23.880
it's super hard to just look at a large file
690
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.359
and get it without it being like a huge blob
691
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:27.480
and going off somewhere else.
692
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.960
Okay, awesome. You know, obviously the name of our podcast
693
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.240
is the dev Life, Like that's That's one. One thing
694
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:40.119
that's really important to Matt and myself is really finding
695
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:43.000
career happiness, right and not just kind of like getting
696
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.000
through the drudgery of like a nine to five job,
697
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.920
but really enjoying what we do. And I think, for
698
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.920
whatever reason, there seems to be some like hesitation for
699
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:58.920
people to move into programming adjacent roles. I'm only allowed
700
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:03.039
to stay in software development strictly, but I don't think
701
00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:05.240
that there's like a one size fits all, And I
702
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.440
think you can find just as much joy in jobs
703
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.240
that are still in programming, but maybe not strictly just
704
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.559
you know, coding, and like I've done that a little
705
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.079
bit myself, and here you are with you know, you've
706
00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:23.599
done a couple of things and now developer relations, but
707
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:27.920
maybe you could explain specifically, like what it is you
708
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:32.000
do it get butler, but also like I don't know
709
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.640
just how you got into it, who is it for
710
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:36.680
and who is it not for? Because I can say
711
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.920
I've heard a lot of people weatly saying I want
712
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.480
to get into developer relations, and I don't know that
713
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:44.279
it is right for everyone. Maybe it is, maybe it's not.
714
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.480
But what are your thoughts on that?
715
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:49.359
Yeah, let me start with kind of how how we
716
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.039
do things that get mother So because we're a small team,
717
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.559
like and any other team, I would have like probably
718
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:56.440
ten people working with me and we'd be called the
719
00:32:56.440 --> 00:33:02.119
growth team, and it would be you know, content, documentation, events, sponsorships,
720
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.759
buying the swag like everything in between, along with doing talks,
721
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:10.160
doing presentations, webinars, podcasts, all of that stuff. And usually
722
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.599
at a bigger company, it's a big team that does it.
723
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:15.039
Here it's me and this other guy, Pat Dunham, who
724
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:16.960
does all of our video stuff, who does an amazing,
725
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.640
amazing job. And it's just because we're a small team.
726
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.079
But the whole point is to reach out to as
727
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.119
many people as possible, not just to get the product
728
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.119
out there, but to get feedback on whether what we're
729
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.799
doing makes sense. Like if I think if when get
730
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.559
Butler started, because it actually started like two or three
731
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.880
years ago. When we started, it probably didn't make sense
732
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:37.680
to a lot of people like oh, there's you know,
733
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:38.720
there's tools out there.
734
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:39.480
Why do I need this?
735
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.359
Why do I need to come at it from a
736
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:44.519
better get perspective than just to get EUI perspective? So
737
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.720
gathering that feedback, we actually figured out how to build
738
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:50.000
one one of our co founders, which was like our
739
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.759
CTO Carill. He was building a tool, but a lot
740
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.079
of people weren't really into that tool because he couldn't
741
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:58.119
better explain how it worked. So it took you know,
742
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.519
Scott coming in from another perspective and say like, hey,
743
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.039
let's build this up and make it into a thing
744
00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:06.039
that makes sense for people. And that's really what our
745
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.159
goal is, Like useful dev tools are super important. And
746
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:11.880
to me, where I come in is I just love
747
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.880
working with people in communities. I think that the best
748
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:17.119
way to find out about how anybody thinks about anything
749
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:20.239
you're doing is to ask them face to face, Like
750
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.280
go out there, you know, shake babies, kiss hands. That's
751
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:26.360
kind of the idea like sure, like you know, part
752
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:28.519
of my job is occasionally giving out T shirts or
753
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:30.559
we give out bow ties because we're get butlers, and
754
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.480
like just having fun or you know, having a few
755
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.000
beers or don't go in to karaoke with people and
756
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:37.199
talking about not just like what they care about as
757
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.559
a developer, but what they care about his people, because
758
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.480
that's what really matters. And I'll kind of segue that
759
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:44.400
into and if you want to get into developer relations,
760
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.239
like you have to be a people person. That is
761
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:49.679
not common in the work that we do. I grew
762
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.679
up a musician. Handing out flyers and badgering people to
763
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:54.920
come to shows and playing shows and being on stage
764
00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:57.880
was part of everything I've done since I was probably
765
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.719
about six years old. It's not an unfamiliar terator. So
766
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.639
being outgoing, having fun telling everyone what I'm doing all
767
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.239
the time was something. Yeah, see, Matt, everybody who has
768
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:09.599
guitarist has to get them in the shot.
769
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.679
I had to get the shot man hearing you say that,
770
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:13.320
like when we got a jam later.
771
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.480
Absolutely absolutely, But like I mean that's the thing, like
772
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:18.440
there's so much more, so many more aspects to each
773
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.159
person being in develop relations like you kind of have
774
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:23.159
to have something more than like I really like code,
775
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.000
or what I don't care for is I just want
776
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:27.039
to travel and have fun.
777
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.280
Like yeah, yeah, that is part of the job.
778
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:32.199
But you know, one of the stories that I like
779
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:34.719
to tell is, you know, you don't always want to
780
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.239
have fun. I was doing a conference called just Still
781
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:41.320
that my company EngineYard was throwing is twenty fourteen August
782
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.360
of twenty fourteen, and I woke up in the morning
783
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.159
in San Francisco, seven am, day one of the conference.
784
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.239
Everything's going well, all the speakers are in town, everyone's
785
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.239
checked in, everything's great, everything should be rolling. I get
786
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:56.400
a call from my wife and she said, my grandmother died.
787
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.480
Now I have fifteen minutes to get on stage. So
788
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:02.920
whether I'm happy or not, I have to get up
789
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:06.119
there and be happy. Whether I'm in the mood or not,
790
00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.440
it doesn't matter. You have to do that. And there's
791
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.440
another part to Devrell that it's like, you know, it
792
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.079
takes a lot to write a talk, it takes a
793
00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:16.079
lot to write a blog post, it takes a lot
794
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:18.199
to interact with people on a podcast. I mean, you
795
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.719
two know this more than most people. And it's difficult
796
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.280
to do. So don't think that, like I know a
797
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:26.199
little bit of code, I'm going to go jump into DevRel.
798
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:30.519
It's not that simple. It's also a vastly shrinking job market.
799
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:31.039
Right now.
800
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:35.480
There are probably about fifty top notch DevRel people in
801
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.679
the world, and out of that probably about thirty percent
802
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:39.960
of them are looking for jobs right now.
803
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:40.920
Wow.
804
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:44.239
Do you think that AI is playing a part in that?
805
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:48.239
Definitely, it definitely is because people are saying things like, well,
806
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.079
you know, I could just use this to write off
807
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:52.760
my blog posts and fix my documentation and everything's going
808
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:57.320
to be fine. Well, someone has to read that, and
809
00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.480
the logic of well, I'm just building content for content
810
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:04.960
to be consumed by an LLLM. That's super dangerous. That's
811
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.280
that's a really bad like feedback loop. And I don't
812
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:09.960
I don't think it's a way to be successful, like
813
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.360
I mean to say, like I mean, I'll admit sometimes
814
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.039
I go into the document, like when we stopped using
815
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.760
the language virtual branches compared to parallel branches, because virtual
816
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.360
branches is confusing to people because it means something else
817
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.480
as well as what we meant it for. So we
818
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.960
started saying parallel branches. I used AI to do a
819
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:28.480
finding replace. That's not like a super heavy use of it.
820
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:30.599
Plus I had control over everything and I read every
821
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.199
single sentence where it was changed. But when you're just saying,
822
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.199
all right, just go fix the documentation to write something
823
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.960
about parallel branches, we'll see what happens, that's not a
824
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.639
positive experience. I also think that that, you know, having
825
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:45.679
having your content built by AI is it's just it's
826
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.119
it's it's it's a road to to to slop. Eventually
827
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:53.039
you will just be getting garbage. And people don't appreciate that.
828
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:57.119
Yeah, it's actually got out of education because the school
829
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:01.400
district we're saying, here's this manual, you are required to
830
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.679
read out of it word for word, and it was yeah, sorry,
831
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.400
that manual might have correct information. But to say that
832
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.000
that is going to teach my students better than if
833
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.280
I have an organic discussion with them, Like, I don't
834
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:16.400
think so.
835
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:18.880
So, I mean that's that's like and I get I
836
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.679
live in a house with three teachers. You know, my
837
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:22.920
wife and two of my kids that live at home
838
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.239
are they're all teachers. And it's there's the amount of
839
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.039
AI garbage that they get is unbelievable, and like, it's
840
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.599
interesting because at least in education a little bit, they're
841
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:34.119
actually keeping up with those tools. Because my son, who
842
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.079
teaches social studies, they immediately game thing like every time
843
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:38.840
you get a paper, run it through this machine and
844
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:42.199
see what it says. And he's actually had kids say, now,
845
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:44.880
wait a minute, mister, h can I can I just
846
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.079
handwrite this? And he's like, no, you cannot, because I
847
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:49.599
know if you handwrite it, you're just going to handwrite
848
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:51.559
what chat sheepy he told you to write, it's still
849
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:52.360
going to be the same thing.
850
00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:54.119
So it's really wild.
851
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.360
But yeah, he you know, I know a lot of
852
00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.360
people were not happy with the way education is going
853
00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.960
because of AI because yeah, yeah, like you know, opening
854
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:02.679
a textbook and find me out that George Washington was
855
00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:04.039
the fifth president of the United States.
856
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:05.400
Hallucination is a thing.
857
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:10.320
Oh well, and what you're saying earlier, you know, you
858
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:12.920
shake hands and kiss babies or I don't want AI
859
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.119
kissing my baby and shaking my hand.
860
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.480
No, I don't don't.
861
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.800
I want AI to know as little as about me
862
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:21.760
as possible, And I did. I did some of those
863
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.079
experiments when chat GPT first came out and I was like,
864
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.480
you know, hey, my name is PJ. Haggerty, and tell
865
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:29.119
me exactly, tell me everything you can about me and
866
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.880
draw a picture of me. And I was absolutely horrified
867
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.719
at how accurate it was, Like it rewrote my bio
868
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:37.119
in ways that I couldn't even have imagined. That was
869
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:38.760
you know, that was a couple of years ago. So
870
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.840
that was like versions ago. Now it's even better slash Wars.
871
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:44.599
Terrifying.
872
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.039
Yeah. Wow. So I'm gonna transition here a little bit.
873
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.800
At the beginning of the episode, I mentioned that you
874
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.920
are a board member at I guess it's what like
875
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:05.719
a nonprofit and it's called Open Sources Mental Illness.
876
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:06.320
Yep.
877
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:08.519
Yeah, tell us a little bit about that and how
878
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:09.480
you got involved with that.
879
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:10.400
Yeah.
880
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.880
So, actually, early on in my DevRel career, when Aim
881
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.280
and Leonard and I sat down just to build our team,
882
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.880
we realized that there were a couple of problems in tech,
883
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.559
and one of them was a lack of diversity, equity,
884
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:25.400
and inclusion. And we realized as two white guys, we
885
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:27.519
could support that as much as possible, be allies as
886
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.000
much as possible, and speak to that and give as
887
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:30.960
many opportunities we can.
888
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:31.559
But we can't.
889
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:35.559
We can only fix that so much from our perspective.
890
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:37.920
On the other hand, absolutely no one was talking about
891
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:42.039
mental health and mental health like our industry is the
892
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:46.360
third worst statistically for people with mental health issues. And
893
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:48.480
and mind you, I'm not talking about neurodiversity here. I'm
894
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:51.199
not talking about you know, simple simple, you know, the
895
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:52.679
people that are on the auto the spectrum. I'm talking
896
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:56.719
about peopleho have issues with depression, bipolar, they have ADHD
897
00:40:56.920 --> 00:40:59.239
like the These are serious issues that impact the way
898
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.719
they work, and sometimes you can't. So we started to
899
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:05.519
think called MH prompt, which is mental Health prompt because
900
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:07.760
you know, the prompt like the command line, were so clever,
901
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:11.280
and our whole goal was just to put mental health
902
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:13.840
speakers on stage like developers, just like you and I.
903
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.480
But they were talking instead of talking about their code
904
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.639
or talking about their cool project, or talking about what
905
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.840
language they were using how much they love it, they
906
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:24.760
were talking about serious issues that they had. And we
907
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.719
had a small cadre of speakers, you know, many women
908
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.079
from all over the field and in different place, database
909
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.880
engineers and front end developers, backend developers, you know, all
910
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:37.480
over the place. But Demson's crely talking about their issues
911
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:40.920
really brought to the forefront. One of those speakers was
912
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:43.039
a guy named Ed Finkland, and Finkler was part of
913
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:45.159
the reason why we got started with all of it.
914
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.000
And Ed used to give a talk called Overcoming Fear,
915
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:51.000
which was really about his issues with social anxiety and
916
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.639
how that prevented him from being a speaker for a
917
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.039
long time, prevented him from going to conferences because he
918
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.360
was nervous that socially he would do the wrong thing
919
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:01.800
and be ousted. They wouldn't be black black did no end. Ever, again,
920
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:04.159
it was a real fear that he had and like
921
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:07.199
going through and going to therapy, figuring out why these
922
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:10.559
things are true was part of his journey, and so
923
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:13.199
after a few years of imange prompt he created it
924
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.320
was originally OSMI open Sourcing Mental Illness reallyter changes to
925
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:18.920
open sourcing mental Health has kind of a more positive spin.
926
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:22.079
But but the whole idea is just educating people on issues
927
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.519
that can come up, specifically when you're in tech when
928
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:28.840
you don't protect your mental health, and so I continue
929
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:30.159
to be a part of that. I think the work
930
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.480
there is super important. You know, May is coming up.
931
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:35.000
May is mental health Awareness Month, and that's usually when
932
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.719
we're busiest we've had, So my main point at the
933
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.079
board is to or coordinate the speakers. I've also written
934
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:42.440
some of the documentations about, like, you know, post COVID,
935
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:44.960
how do you deal with anxiety going to a conference,
936
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:48.039
how do you feel about masking? How do you properly
937
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:50.920
social distance and not feel weird about it? So we
938
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:52.840
wrote a whole guide for that for cube Con I
939
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:54.800
think twenty twenty one, which is one of the first
940
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.719
events post COVID. But the idea is to get get
941
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.320
people educated, get them knowledgeable about it so they're comfortable talking.
942
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:03.000
We're kind of like I tried to add the stigma
943
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.760
of mental health in tech because we've lost too many
944
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.400
good people and it's you know, it's better to have
945
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:11.159
a talk with somebody that's a little uncomfortable, but did
946
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:12.440
not have that somebody to talk to you ever.
947
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.400
Again, I love that.
948
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:18.119
I love that so much and Brooke and I I
949
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:21.119
can tell you this is something we believe adamantly, and
950
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.119
in fact, it's part of the whole reason we created
951
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.400
this podcast to begin with. Before we created it, we
952
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:29.840
were did a couple of talk or two on mental
953
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:31.480
health and you know, we've been trying to help, but
954
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:33.719
hearing you, you know, you're doing that on a big level,
955
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:37.000
is so inspiring. But you know, as you were mentioning
956
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.679
how it's so prevalent in software engineers, I'm curious what
957
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:46.719
is unique about software engineers and also like what strategies
958
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:50.960
software engineers can do to improve mental health as programmers
959
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:52.639
from what you've found.
960
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:54.920
Yeah, I mean, well, so the first thing is, you know,
961
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:57.159
kind of answer the question why why is so prevalent.
962
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:00.519
I think this career speaks to something in people who
963
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:05.920
have different neuro neurological orders or disorders. I don't want
964
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.559
to say that they that they're they're not superpowers, they're
965
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.079
not bad, They're just there. They're just things that happen
966
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.719
for me, Like being a programmer with ADHD is exactly
967
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:20.519
what I need. I write things fast, I write things poorly.
968
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:23.079
I go as fast as I can, and I have
969
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.800
you know, big giant things where I produce a ton
970
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.920
of work, and little tiny things where I'm practically lethargic.
971
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.880
But this is a job that speaks to that. That's okay,
972
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.440
you can get away with it because it's mostly individual.
973
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:36.119
But where the stigma comes in is, most people are like,
974
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:37.639
you know, you have no problem, like getting a new
975
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.280
keyboard if it's busted, getting a new monitor because it's shot,
976
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:43.239
But you're not willing to admit that you're most important too.
977
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.559
I might not be working properly and that's your brain.
978
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.840
So to me, like the biggest things you can do
979
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.880
to kind of mitigate this is like get a therapist.
980
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:53.840
Even if you don't have an issue, even if you
981
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:57.400
are completely mentally healthy, having someone who you don't know
982
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.760
to talk to is not such a bad thing, just
983
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.400
for Catharsis. In general, I've never known anyone who doesn't
984
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:05.360
have anything going on in their life, So chances are
985
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.599
you're just you're just for pressing. But like, in all seriousness,
986
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.760
one of our speakers, Greg Bogis mentioned this in one
987
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:15.360
of his first talks. Michael Jordan had a coach, Tiger
988
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.800
Woods had a coach. Serena Williams has a coach. Why
989
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:19.800
don't you have a coach?
990
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:20.280
That's all.
991
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:22.519
A therapist is someone who's gonna sit there, listen to
992
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:24.079
you and give you a few tools to make things
993
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.599
a little bit better. That's all it is, a lot
994
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:29.679
of people say mental health professionals are a crutch. Well, yeah,
995
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:31.000
when you break your leg, you know, I use a
996
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:34.320
crush because you can't walk. What's wrong with a crutch?
997
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.880
So yeah, that's one of the big things. On an
998
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:39.960
individual level. I think at an organizational level, you shall
999
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:41.760
always have someone on your team who has taken the
1000
00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:44.840
Mental Health first Aid training. Doesn't make you a mental
1001
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.000
health professional, but it does help you to spot a
1002
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.400
few behaviors they might be leading to something that is
1003
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.920
detrimental to an individual on your team. So mental Health
1004
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.920
first Aid is I think in all fifty states at
1005
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.320
this point. So just google mental Health first Aid and
1006
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.039
you can find a place to ge get the training.
1007
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.280
It's not a long train twenty four hours I think
1008
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:03.440
it costs, and it's the free to fifty bucks somewhere
1009
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:03.960
in that range.
1010
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.079
That's awesome. I love that too, because I agree, I think,
1011
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:10.079
and I think it's gotten better in more recent years,
1012
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:17.239
where you know, having a therapist is more acceptable. I guess, yeah,
1013
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:19.960
I for sure, like, thank you for saying all of that.
1014
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:24.400
I couldn't agree anymore. We're kind of winding down here,
1015
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:28.400
so to to kind of pull it back to more
1016
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.719
of the well, I don't know. We like to end
1017
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:35.280
with wiightening questions. I kind of throw somer. You just
1018
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:38.840
kind of end with something fun. But you know, you
1019
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:43.639
mentioned you're a musician. I didn't really get a chance
1020
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.320
to ask. And I can see a guitar there, So
1021
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:48.000
what insurance do you play?
1022
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:51.679
I play so growing up I played the drums. I
1023
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:53.960
started playing drums when I was six years old. I
1024
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:58.480
play guitar, I play bass. I can fool around on
1025
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:00.599
a piano. I don't know how to to read music
1026
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.440
for a piano. I'm pretty good at picking up an
1027
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:05.119
instrument and figuring out how to play it. I did
1028
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:07.079
have a trumpet for a little while, never figured that out.
1029
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.599
That was like a magical thing. I ended up selling it.
1030
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:11.760
It's very sad, but uh yeah, I mean for the
1031
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.599
past few years, I've been in an Irish band called
1032
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.719
The King's Highwaymen, where I played guitar and sang. So
1033
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.000
that was a lot of fun. But I love my drums.
1034
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.239
Drums are my main instrument. It's my favorite thing in
1035
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:20.880
the world.
1036
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:22.960
Okay, I'm gonna.
1037
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:24.880
Talk about catharsists have a rough day, go play drums
1038
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.239
for teams to be like, oh I better.
1039
00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:31.440
Yeah, all right, So then my question for you, and
1040
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.199
I'll put drums in here. Then if you could pick
1041
00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:38.599
a song and play it like on your drums as
1042
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:42.360
the Get Butler theme song, Is there a song that
1043
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.360
comes to mind for that?
1044
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:45.159
There's a couple.
1045
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:46.800
I mean, I think the first song that comes to
1046
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.480
mind in general is Ghostbusters, because I've always wanted to
1047
00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:52.320
do a version of Ghostbusters where we change the words
1048
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.840
to Get Butler. I think it fits in really well.
1049
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:56.639
But as far as like on the drums, I think
1050
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.920
like ac DC's for those about to rock, because it's
1051
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:03.000
it's like, you know, it has like this amazing like well,
1052
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:05.400
first of all, it has cannons, which counts as drums,
1053
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:08.599
and then like it has these beautiful like fills, like
1054
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.480
these these paradidal style fills that make it a lot
1055
00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:13.239
of fun. And it's just like a very straightforard because
1056
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:15.719
they c DC, their drums are not complicated. But yeah,
1057
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:18.519
I think that that that kind of kind of underscores gift.
1058
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:21.920
But like we rock, we we we play hard, we
1059
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:26.280
love karaoke a little too much sometimes, but like we
1060
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:29.239
also like we are ready to do to build this
1061
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.239
for you, so like you know, those about to rock,
1062
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.760
we salute you underscores that that kind of behavior.
1063
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:35.440
That's awesome.
1064
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:39.519
That's awesome. All right, last question, what do you do
1065
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:42.800
day to day to live your ultimate dev life?
1066
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:43.920
Oh?
1067
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.039
Man, what do I do day to day? I think
1068
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:49.039
the biggest thing is interacting with other developers. I think that,
1069
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:52.719
you know, when I first started as a developer twenty
1070
00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.000
seven years ago, it was an individual thing, and I
1071
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:56.760
didn't like that as much because it was like, you know,
1072
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:58.719
I go, I write my code, I work from nine
1073
00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:00.760
to five, I come home. But now I get to
1074
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:02.480
I get this great job where I get to speak
1075
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:05.239
with developers online. I get to meet with people like
1076
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.440
you guys, and like hang out and like just talk
1077
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.079
about like what's changed, what's new, what's old, what should
1078
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.199
come back? What tools help, what tools don't? And to me,
1079
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:17.679
that's like a ton of fun because always it always
1080
00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:20.199
leads to like a more human interaction with the machines.
1081
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.199
And that's that for me, is what's what it's all about.
1082
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:26.280
I fully agree with that more you can interact with
1083
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.280
people and like I get like you, you know, sometimes
1084
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:30.320
you got to step back and just have a long time.
1085
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:35.119
But love that MM so thank you so much so
1086
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:39.760
for being on the show today, I am really wanting
1087
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:41.800
to go use git Butler now, like I want to
1088
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.079
go play around with they see what it's like. But
1089
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:47.119
if someone wanted to connect with you, what's the best
1090
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:48.239
way for them to reach out?
1091
00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:51.039
And sure, probably the easiest way to connect with me
1092
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:53.039
other I mean, you can join the get Butler discord,
1093
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.239
which if you're gonna try and get butled, please join
1094
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.199
us in discord and let us know if you like it,
1095
00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:59.480
if you don't like it, whatever, just let us know
1096
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.679
what you think. But I'm very easy to find. I'm
1097
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:04.760
at a splenic on Discord. I'm at a splinic on
1098
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:08.920
every platform, get hub, get lab like it's I picked
1099
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:11.559
a name when I was young. And for those youngins
1100
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:14.639
who are using like first initial last name as are login,
1101
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:17.199
I'm sorry that we used up all the cool names
1102
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:19.920
before you got here, But yeah.
1103
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:20.159
Long start.
1104
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.320
Lost my spleen when I was nineteen, became my screen
1105
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.599
name on everything, so it's just ASP L E E
1106
00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:27.880
N I C and you can find me on just
1107
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.000
about any platform with that information.
1108
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:35.360
Nice awesome? All right, Well how about all of you listeners,
1109
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:37.920
what are your biggest pain points with get and get
1110
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:41.519
hub or your change management tools. What would you like
1111
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:44.599
to see change or made available, or how are you
1112
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:48.599
using AI to improve the flow. Leave your thoughts, ideas
1113
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:52.440
and questions in the comments below. Hear the video and YouTube.
1114
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.199
If you're listening to us, come find us on YouTube
1115
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:56.960
as well. And this is the dev.
1116
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.920
Life the gop.
1117
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:15.800
Any temper in the anythink the Masters could any texpect
1118
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:17.800
in the anythink the Masters could