Power Generation in Springfield - Part 2

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🎵 🎵 Welcome back to another episode of That's
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Shocking, a City Utilities podcast. I'm one of
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your hosts, Daniel. And I'm Cara. Thanks for
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being here. Cara, hey, it's part two of a conversation
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that we started in the last episode. Yeah, we're
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excited to be back with John Stevens and Ray
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Eaton from City Utilities who are talking to
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us about our best, the best, best system. Yeah.
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That stands for... Battery energy storage system.
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Yes. Best. I got it. So, yeah, we're kicking
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it off again, talking about these battery energy
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storage systems that are being constructed as
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we speak in two areas of Springfield. The first
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at the James River Battery Energy Storage System.
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It's a mouthful. And at the Blackman Water Treatment
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Plant, there's another. um installation going
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up and these are really neat because they're
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capable of storing 31 megawatts for a period
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of about five to six hours which john tells me
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that's enough power for 3 100 homes wow so john
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how's that work exactly um well as you know like
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we talked about previously uh you know batteries
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are like putting your energy in into a bank and
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taking it back out when you need it so um That
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means several different things. We talked a little
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bit about the emergency aspect. If you have a
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system connected so you are acting like a backup
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to your power system, primarily the James River
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system is just going to be like the rest of our
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generation fleet. It will provide a piece of
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the power demand for the city, but it certainly
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isn't big enough to supply the entire city. as
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the need or the economics dictate, it will discharge,
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you know, just like running one of Ray's generators
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or when the demand is low or we have excess power,
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then we can put it back in that bank and recharge
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the batteries to be ready for the next time.
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Yeah, that's great. So before I do my best Doc
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Brown and I'm like, it involves your kids. This
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is about the future, quite literally involving
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the future generations, I would say. Would you
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say, Ray, that this is the future, the batteries,
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that is, in terms of what we're looking at? Yeah,
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I wouldn't say it's the overall future, but I
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think it plays a huge role in the future with
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keeping all the batteries going and our steam
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units and gas turbines working together with
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these batteries. As far as when they cycle up
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and down, we have these other loads that can
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pick up. where they left off at so i think they
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do play a huge role in the future but i don't
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think they will be just batteries for for the
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future you know what i mean it's another tool
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in the toolbox absolutely absolutely and they'll
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work great with the with the assets we have now
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So our power supply task force started meeting,
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I don't know, maybe two years ago and looking
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at ways to provide more power to the Springfield
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area. And that group ultimately decided that
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one of the key components was going to be these
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best systems, these battery energy storage systems.
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Why? Why did the group decide that these batteries
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were one of the options that we should consider?
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Well, you know, there are a plethora of reasons
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for it. Diversity is the word that comes to mind,
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and Ray said that very well. I think, you know,
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obviously these are relatively new technology
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on this scale, and they will provide a lot of
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benefits, but they aren't the answer for every
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question. So, you know, why did we consider them?
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You know, some of those benefits we've already
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talked about, being able to purchase power when
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the prices are low, and then... withdrawal power
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when prices are high or scarcity exists. You
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kicked off last episode talking about congestion.
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And congestion is a phenomenon that impacts our
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power system here in Springfield, oftentimes,
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particularly when the demand is high. So there's
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peak events then. Yeah, really hot weather, really
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cold weather. And in order to combat that, I
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mean, When there is that congestion, think about
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I -44. When you have heavy traffic, it may take
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you a long time to get in or out of Springfield.
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But in electrical terms, that means the price
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goes up, the supply is low, so you need to supplement
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that, and the batteries provide a very economic
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way to do that. Like we've discussed, it's not
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a 100 % solution, but it certainly is a part
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of that solution. So speaking of solution, what
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about incentives? Certainly that was a key component,
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you know, the finance part. Obviously these things
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aren't free. Every technology costs money. And,
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you know, the federal government has historically
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offered some incentives to build new technologies,
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particularly, you know, solar and batteries.
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This particular technology, EOS, is the manufacturer
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that's providing the equipment. They're U .S.
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made. They're made primarily from zinc, which
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is sourced from U .S. sources. They are non -flammable,
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recyclable, so they check a lot of boxes. But
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clearly the tax incentives and the ability to...
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subsidize that cost of constructing them was
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a big factor in their selection. Yeah, that's
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good for our customers. You touched on this a
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minute ago, John, but Ray, I want to talk a little
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bit about some of the controversy that has surrounded
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batteries. Are these battery projects sort of
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grouped in with that controversy or how are they
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different? You know, the big difference is John
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nailed it when he said they're non -flammable.
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So when you think of lithium, everybody thinks,
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oh, the battery's going to catch fire and just
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destroy things. Zinc won't do that. They're non
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-flammable. But there's pros and cons to both
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of them. Lithium is a battery that can charge
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better, discharge better, but comes at a price.
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These zinc batteries don't charge as well. They
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charge, but they're not as fast charging. Let's
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put it that way. they um i'm trying to think
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of the word but they don't they charge fast and
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they um the lifespan of them could be a little
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bit shorter um than a lithium battery okay so
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there there is your pros and cons of that but
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the biggest thing for city utilities is that
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we want to ensure our customers in the surrounding
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area that, you know, we're putting in something
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that's safe for the environment and the community.
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And they really, I mean, they've been recognized
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nationally. We've received a lot of requests
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from industry outlets wanting to know more about
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them. And so clearly, while it may not be the
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future, it certainly is a piece of it. Absolutely.
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Absolutely. Well, I want to, John, did you have
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something to add? No, I think you covered it
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pretty well. It's interesting, too. Part of the
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adoption of any technology, it occurs at different
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rates in different places. Ray and I were talking
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earlier this morning out on the West Coast, particularly
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areas like California. Rooftop solar in California
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has really grown exponentially, in part because
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of government policies, but a big part of it
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is because of the rates the customers pay. It's
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more affordable. because their electric bills
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are higher. And when you have that much generation,
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solar, for example, there are times when the
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sun shines that they have more power than they
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can use. And by installing batteries, they're
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able to put that in the bank and use it other
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times. And because of that, we see a very high
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proliferation of batteries. In the western United
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States, you know, it is relatively new in places
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east of the Rockies, I'll say. But again, you
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know, east coast, they have very high utility
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rates compared to the middle of the country where
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we are. So they're slowly starting to show up,
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you know, on the east coast. But here in the
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middle of the country, it is relatively novel.
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And particularly among our peers, you know, in
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municipal power, APPA, I think you mentioned.
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You know, we are one of the early adopters of
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the technology and on this size. I mean, 31 megawatts
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in the grand scheme of things is, you know, less
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than, you know, 10 % of our daily need. But it
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is a pretty significant project, as you can see
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if you've driven past it, and I think you have.
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So, you know, there are different use cases,
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different rationales, but it definitely is a...
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a pretty novel technology and it you know it
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will be the first at this scale that city utilities
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has ever operated so i'm excited uh you know
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my roles and i know ray and his folks are too
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to kind of learn um really all the the nuances
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because you know we we've covered the basics
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but there are always things that uh you don't
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discover until you start using it on a daily
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basis well and if you haven't yet seen them um
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the ones well you can see them both and we mentioned
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they're at blackman as well as out at james river
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power plant you can you can see them being installed
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they look kind of like trailers or storage units
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as we mentioned last time and so um if you're
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wondering what's going on out there though that's
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our battery energy storage system so well um
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thank you both for being here we're going to
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transition here because we want to pit you two
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against each other we want to play a little game
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and it's interesting because that won't be hard
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well what's funny is we came into this you were
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well aware of the nerdometer john and you in
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particular said you were gonna you were gonna
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hide it because you were worried that we were
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gonna beat you up a little bit here and um To
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my knowledge, Ray, we've only hit it one time
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and it was on you. It's a shutout, Ray. You got
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me. So this is time for you to try to redeem
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yourself with this game we're about to play.
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It's called Charge vs. Discharge. Do you want
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to explain the rules? So, Kara, just as you said,
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it is going to be John vs. Ray. So cue up the
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sound of like a boxing ring. You are on corners
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right now. So basically how this game works,
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the first to charge up completely to 100 % wins.
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We're treating it like batteries. So for each
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question you get right, well, you add 25%. And
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for each wrong answer, you deplete by 50%. This
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is going to be a quick game. I was going to say,
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he's keeping track of the math because we know
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I'm not going to be able to. This will be fun
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because math is not my strong suit. But we will
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do our best. There's a twist, too. Aren't you
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a math major? Minor. Minor. So here is a twist.
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Are you ready? Brace for it. You must answer
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in a way that a fifth grader would understand.
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So we've upped the ante on this Nerdometer deal.
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Yeah, so basically... We're going to ask you
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a really tough question, and you have to answer
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it in a way that a fifth grader would understand.
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And we are the judges, of course, because we
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basically think like fifth graders. So that shouldn't
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be too much of a stretch for us. Ray, let's start
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with you. Okay. Question number one. What device
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converts mechanical energy into electrical energy?
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What device... What device converts mechanical
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energy into electrical energy? A generator. Yeah,
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that's right. You got it. That's good. So you
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are already up to 25%. You're slowly charging.
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Oh, I'm sorry. My mom said it was a generator.
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That's what you said first. Yeah, but you said
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do it like a fifth. Answer like a fifth grader
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would understand. My mom said a generator. Okay.
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So you've charged. Slowly. That was easy because
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it was a one -word answer. We're going to get
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a little bit more complicated now. John, how
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does grid inertia affect the stability of power
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systems with increasing penetration of inverter
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-based resources? Well, grid inertia, it's like
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momentum. If you've ever been hit by a fly going
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20 miles an hour versus a rock going 20 miles
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an hour, the rock has more momentum. And most
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fifth graders, I think, have. Probably, well,
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been hit by a rock. But grid inertia is essentially
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the stability of the power system. And inverters,
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you know, raised generators, when you go to a
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power plant, they're very big, very heavy. You've
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probably seen some pictures or videos of them
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being taken apart or put back together. These
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things weigh, you know, tons, you know, tens
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and hundreds of tons of metal. And they're very
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hard to stop. So if something happens, they tend
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to keep going for some amount of time and kind
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of coast down to a stop. Whereas inverters, just
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like Ray said, they can come on and start very
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fast, but they can also stop very fast. So if
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something goes wrong, they're off almost instantaneously.
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And there's no, we call it ride -through in the
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industry. It's basically the ability of things
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to keep going when something bad happens. And
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inverters are... A little short on that ride
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-through capability, and that's something we're
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trying to simulate and recreate as we speak.
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Wow. Okay. Do you understand all that? Some of
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it? Half of it? I understood each of the individual
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words, but when they were all put together...
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I know. Generators are a rock. Inverters are
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a fly. Okay. Oh, I got that. I got that. Okay.
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Short answer. I would say, John, you had a few
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more words than Ray, but... We accept. Yeah.
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So now it's a race. That's right. 25 % for both
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of you. Ray, your second question. What does
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the term renewable energy mean? Renewable energy
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means... It's basically green power. I accept.
00:14:52.029 --> 00:14:56.009
Okay. All right. So that's 25 % on top of it.
00:14:56.289 --> 00:14:59.289
You're now up to 50%. You're halfway there. And
00:14:59.289 --> 00:15:03.830
he did it with about 5 % of the words. So maybe
00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:08.220
we give him a bonus. Okay, John. What are the
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.460
major challenges of integrating long -duration
00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:12.940
energy storage into grid -scale renewable systems?
00:15:13.419 --> 00:15:15.639
Major challenges. Well, we've already covered
00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:19.019
one, Cara. That was inertia. And we can talk
00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:21.500
about rocks and flies some more. But we won't.
00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:25.299
We won't. I think, you know, there are so many.
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:30.179
Public perception. You know, there's a lot of
00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:32.379
concern, a lot of fear. This is a new technology.
00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.820
You know, I'm sure we've all seen a YouTube video
00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:39.259
of a... massive fire at a quote -unquote battery
00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:41.740
installation. And like Ray explained, you know,
00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:43.779
there are different chemistries, different technologies.
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:48.740
So, you know, overcoming that public perception,
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:53.279
it's very political. You know, we did talk about
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.720
some of the tax credits, tax subsidies. Some
00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:59.500
folks, you know, don't want that to happen for
00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.860
any technology, particularly something that is
00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:07.480
new and different. You know, of course, the basic
00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.779
limitations like we've covered, you know, these
00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:14.879
don't generate power. They store power. So, you
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.679
know, we'll never run the system on 100 % batteries
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:19.159
because we would have nothing to charge them
00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.360
with. Right. For example. So those are the major
00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:27.279
issues. I mean, you know, and finance, obviously,
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.559
in order to install enough batteries to, you
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.440
know, see big effects. You know, the James River
00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:36.039
project, for example. Like I said, it's less
00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:40.779
than 10 % of our daily need for energy, and it's
00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:43.500
a very significant cost for our customers. So
00:16:43.500 --> 00:16:45.440
if we wanted to install a project big enough,
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.120
it would be a very significant investment. And
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:51.799
if you scale that up to nationwide, it's an enormous
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.559
number. Sure. Okay. Well, you're doing great.
00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:57.679
Again, I understand it all. I want a three -word
00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:01.179
question. Sorry, I dozed off. I was going to
00:17:01.179 --> 00:17:02.919
say, we may or may not have rigged these in a
00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.240
way that... All right. It sounds like a little
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:10.740
setup. John's sweating. All right. Yes. John
00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:13.440
is sweating and Ray has dozed off. So let me
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.259
shake him awake. So Ray, question number three.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.180
Which form of energy does the generator produce?
00:17:22.940 --> 00:17:27.160
Electrical. Down to the one where it answers
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.099
again. I know, right? My dad said electrical.
00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.599
There we go. All right. Here we go. John. Oh,
00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.500
gotcha, buddy. How do battery management systems
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.200
estimate state of charge and state of health
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.680
under variable loads? It's a very complex algorithm.
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:52.700
Just like your bank account, Kara. And I know
00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:55.259
you're not old enough, but some of us folks used
00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:57.279
to have passbook savings accounts where you would
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.980
take your little bank book to the teller every...
00:18:00.990 --> 00:18:03.769
Time you mowed a yard and you put $5 in the bank
00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:05.769
and they'd write it in there and initial it.
00:18:05.849 --> 00:18:12.029
And that's exactly how, you know, the state of
00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:14.069
charge is you have to keep track of your bank
00:18:14.069 --> 00:18:17.529
account balance, you know, on a real -time basis.
00:18:17.569 --> 00:18:20.630
And you can't go to the bank and get $20 if your
00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:23.980
balance is only $5. Oh, okay. Okay. He's doing
00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:26.700
well. I know. Even with the setup. Yeah, exactly.
00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:29.539
Like, John is over here. He's like, no big deal.
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.500
I got it. Well, you know, I think I've lost track.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.279
I don't know if you've been keeping track. I
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.579
could talk about this for a couple more hours.
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:42.299
We're aware. We've got both at 75%, almost fully
00:18:42.299 --> 00:18:45.869
charged up. And it's really coming down to one
00:18:45.869 --> 00:18:47.950
more question. Okay. One more question. Let's
00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:49.670
see if we can do this. And so. You know what
00:18:49.670 --> 00:18:51.289
we should do? We should call an audible here.
00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:53.750
Let's ask the same question and whoever answers
00:18:53.750 --> 00:18:57.130
it better wins the whole thing. And faster? Maybe.
00:18:57.269 --> 00:18:59.670
Or just better. With fewer words. Okay. With
00:18:59.670 --> 00:19:04.329
as few words as possible. Okay. For both of you.
00:19:05.109 --> 00:19:07.390
What are the two main terminals of a battery
00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:12.569
called? Positive negative. It's a tie. It is
00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:20.190
a tie. Plus minus. Well, thank you so much for
00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:22.970
joining us for not one, but two episodes about
00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:25.369
our battery energy storage systems. And we mentioned
00:19:25.369 --> 00:19:27.109
in the last episode, but we want to mention again
00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:28.730
that we're going to be doing a ribbon cutting
00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:32.329
on our Blackmint. energy storage system this
00:19:32.329 --> 00:19:34.910
month, and it'll be coming online. So we're excited
00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:36.730
for that to happen. I know you all are excited
00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:39.630
to put the bow on this project and get her going.
00:19:39.730 --> 00:19:42.500
Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, very excited to unwrap
00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:44.900
this gift and try it out, see what it'll do.
00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:46.880
All right. Well, we'll have you back maybe in
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.940
a year and let us know how it's going. Perfect.
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.640
Very good. All right. Well, thanks again for
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.779
joining us. Thank you for joining us. And also
00:19:53.779 --> 00:19:56.660
want to give an update to the Nerdometer. That's
00:19:56.660 --> 00:20:01.240
right. So we have buzzed Ray one time. John.
00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:03.970
Didn't get a buzz. Well, he got one at the end.
00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:06.970
It gets in the game. Half a buzz. There we go.
00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:10.509
So let's update that to two now. So, Kara, thanks
00:20:10.509 --> 00:20:15.130
for that. Because sharing that, we have two buzzed
00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:17.329
in the course of these past two episodes with
00:20:17.329 --> 00:20:20.410
John and Ray. Also, Transit got zero. They are
00:20:20.410 --> 00:20:23.269
winning the Nerdometer Challenge. SpringNet got
00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:26.529
one. Water has received two. And Natural Gas
00:20:26.529 --> 00:20:29.369
is in the lead with three buzzes. What about
00:20:29.369 --> 00:20:31.900
Eric Smith? In all fairness. We did not start
00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:34.240
the Nerdometer until after Eric Smith from the
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:36.279
power plant was with us. In fact, we started
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.940
the Nerdometer because of Eric Smith. That's
00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:40.400
what I figured. That's probably why it still
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.240
works. That's right. That's right. Well, he was
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.519
going to be my phone -a -friend, so. You would
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:47.700
be in trouble in that case with the Nerdometer.
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.680
So for our listeners, thank you for joining us.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.920
If you have any questions or if you want to chime
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.240
in with anything, let us know at social at cityutilities
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.420
.net. There you can send us an email. You can
00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:02.480
find us on Facebook. Instagram, TikTok with the
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.759
handle at City Utilities. And we also have a
00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:07.380
TikTok page created specifically for the That's
00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.579
Shocking podcast called That's Shocking Pod.
00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:12.740
New episodes release every first and third Wednesday
00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:14.920
of the month. Kara, we got to go off the grid
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.059
right now. But thank you to those listening and
00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:19.940
plugging in and allowing us to brighten your
00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:21.519
day. Stay energized, Springfield.