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I'm Robbie Parks, and I'm Nate Matthews Drake.
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And this is Surviving the Climate, a podcast that gives practical advice for regular people on how to deal with the climate crisis.
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Our guest today is Terry Gerstein, the director of the NYU Wagner Labor Initiative.
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We'll talk about how workers can stay safe during heat waves and what employers can do to keep their workers safe.
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And a few notes before we get into the interview.
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This was recorded on March 19th, 2026.
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We will make references to OSHA a few times.
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And OSHA stands for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
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And it's an agency in the U.S.
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that sets federal workplace safety standards.
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Terry, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.
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Thank you for having me.
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Part of this Surviving the Climate show is really trying to explain how you would sort of discuss your work with your family and friends.
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So kind of like if you had to, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner or just to to friends and family in the park, how would you describe like what you do?
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So in general, what I do is I trap I work with many state and local government agencies and officials and try to help them learn more about workers' rights, get involved in workers' rights, whether through enforcement or policy.
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And also I have created several communities or networks of state and local enforcers so that they can learn from each other and really build a community and be as effective as possible in standing up for workers' rights at the state and local level, which is something that's always important, but is also even more important now that we see a lot of rollbacks at the federal level.
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State and local government play such an important role in stepping up, in creating guardrails for corporations that would take advantage of people in a whole variety of ways.
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So I'm sort of I sort of try to build connective tissues among people working on workers' rights issues in different jurisdictions across the country.
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Great.
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So Terry, before you were in New York, we saw that you were based in Miami.
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And of course, Miami is one of the most, you know, hot and humid places in the United States.
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So, you know, when the temperatures are really hot in a place like Miami, who comes to mind when it comes to workers that are at greatest risk and really need protections?
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And then how does this different in a place like New York?
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Well, I think that the the issues are the same in Miami or New York in terms of the workplace protections that people need, because, you know, the human body is the same in Miami and and in New York, right?
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Once it's above a certain temperature, there are real impacts for workplace safety and physiological reactions that people's bodies have.
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The only thing that I think is different is, you know, two major differences.
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One is that obviously in Miami there are way, way more days of extreme heat than we have in New York.
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And then the second difference is that one of the major and very important recommendations in relation to protecting workers in in extreme heat is having gradual acclimatization.
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So if someone is, you know, here in the Northeast, if someone is, we haven't had any, you know, extremely hot days, and then suddenly it's extremely hot, you know, we have a heat wave of several days.
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Workers can't work the same that they have, you know, from day of, you know, 65 degrees to a day of like 98 degrees.
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You have to, the the body needs time to adjust.
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And so that need for gradual acclimatization is the same no matter where you are.
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But, you know, if once you're, you know, if you if you're already acclimatized because you're already in a warmer temperature, you might, you know, the the acclimatization process might look different.
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You also ask what kind of workers are affected.
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So obviously all kinds of outdoor workers, farm workers, people on construction sites, delivery workers, people, you know, there are postal workers or, you know, UPS workers who have had really extreme impacts because of workplace heat.
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Miami has a huge flower industry.
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A lot of the flowers that we have all over the country come from, come through and from the Miami area.
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And so those workers who are working outside and in those industries are at risk.
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But then also workers who are indoors, if they don't have air conditioning, can be at risk too.
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Workers in, you know, think of cafeterias or industrial laundries that might not have air conditioning.
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Think of warehouse workers outside, also a lot of government contractors, in addition to construction workers, as I mentioned, think of people, for example, working at airports, working on the tarmac, doing the outdoor work at airports.
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So, you know, when you just think about all the kinds of jobs where people would be exposed to extreme heat if they're outside, and jobs where if people do not have air conditioning or cooling areas, sufficient cooling areas and they're inside, and it's, you know, very, you know, it's those are the situations where where we have workers who are really affected by by workplace heat.
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You mentioned a few sort of techniques there, but you know, in terms of the employer of these workers, what are the ways that employers, you know, how are they responsible and what can they do to keep workers safe during a heat wave?
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For example, you know, some methods are more high-tech, some are more straightforward.
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And I would would you be able to sort of think uh take us through some examples of of those responsibilities for particular employers?
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You know, it's kind of amazing because truly the most important things are actually pretty low-tech and pretty simple and pretty easy for everyone to remember.
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Like you could save it in a screenshot.
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Like it's really just a few key points.
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And obviously, employers have to figure out how to operationalize it, right?
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But it's that people need water, they need you know clean drinking water, ideally cool, clean drinking water.
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They need water, they need rest.
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If it's extreme heat, they might need more breaks than usual.
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They need shade or a cooler area to cool off in.
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They need training and the supervisors need training so they know what the risks are of heat exhaustion and heat stroke, and they need gradual acclimatization, as I mentioned.
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So you can't go from, you know, zero to a hundred without gradually getting used to things.
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So if a person is a new worker who's being in a very strenuous working in a very strenuous job, you might want to have, for example, a buddy system or make sure that the person is supervised.
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And you need a plan for if things do go wrong.
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A lot of the measures that people need to take, that employers need to take in terms of workplace safety and health, just involve advanced planning, taking the time ahead of time to analyze your operations and what where are the risks and where are the hazards and how can you operate things differently?
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So, for example, if it's an extremely hot day and they're, you know, if the like if you're watching the weather ahead of time, right?
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And it's gonna be a huge heat wave, maybe some operations can be moved too earlier in the day so people are not working in the very hottest part of the middle of the day.
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Maybe additional workers can be brought on so that people can have more rest time.
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But there's very strong evidence that, you know, when workers, there's the issue of heat exhaustion and heat stroke, which are like the direct injuries because of heat.
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But there's research showing that when there are temperatures above 80 degrees and 90 degrees, there's more workplace injuries of other kinds, like people falling because they're exhausted and have heat stress.
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So this is not, this is not something that is, you know, this is not something that is complicated and it and yet it's something that can really save lives and keep people safe.
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One thing that comes to mind is, you know, we've got, you know, listeners that are in places that probably don't have heat protections.
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And what advice would you have for them if they're working in places where they're exposed to hot temperatures to advocate for themselves, or you know, what what options do they have really?
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I mean, I think it's a there's a number of things that people can do.
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And I think that's a it's a very good question.
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So one is first of all to find out what the law is in your state, because there are a number of states like California, Oregon, Washington, most recently Maryland, that have laws on the books that protect people from workplace heat.
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So that's the first thing.
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Find out what the law is.
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Second, obviously, if you have a union, the union is the first place to go to deal with, you know, this kind of issue.
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Unions have really focused, historically for many, many years, have focused on improving workplace safety and health and raising issues with employers and working, you know, sometimes adversarially, sometimes collaboratively with employers, to find ways to keep workers safe and minimize injuries.
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So that's another thing.
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If you have a union.
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If you don't have a union, I think it's generally always a good idea to talk with fellow workers and talk and talk with your co-workers because generally collective action and taking whatever kind of action you would do together is more effective and it gives you some additional legal protection as well.
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I think another thing is just do some research on workplace heat to find out what the measures are that even though they may not be the law in your state, what it is that is needed to stay safe and gather some resources.
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It's always valuable to have some kind of you know legal advice if you can before you go and talk to your employer and raise something, just because the, you know, people, people need their jobs.
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It is generally illegal for employers to retaliate against workers for raising this kind of issue, particularly if it's if they're raising it collectively.
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But retaliation does happen, illegal though it is.
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And so it is a good idea to sort of, you know, find out what the, what your, you know, what your legal rights are beforehand.
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But I do think heat is one of the situations where a lot of times employers and the general public don't understand how dangerous this is.
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I once wrote an op-ed about workplace heat, and and you're never supposed to read the comments, but I read the comments and there were people who were saying, like, what's the problem?
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It gets hot in the summer.
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I live in Texas.
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We were always hot in the summer.
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But I think people don't understand what the risk is.
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There's a way that if someone was working outside during a blizzard with a t-shirt and shorts, like everyone viscerally would understand that they were putting their body at risk.
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And that was a dangerous situation, right?
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But I think with workplace heat, people don't necessarily sort of absorb it or it doesn't resonate as the same kind of danger as it is, as it really is.
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And, you know, the the temperatures are higher than, you know, to whoever it was who like used to work in the heat in Texas back in their childhood in the 60s or 70s or 80s.
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Like the temperatures are hotter than they were.
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And like riding your bike around as a kid in Texas in the 70s is not the same as performing extremely strenuous work, you know, in agriculture or on a construction site, or, you know, it driving around in an air-conditioned vehicle for hours and hours and hours at a time.
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Yeah.
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And you know, you mentioning the New York Times opinion piece, which is very timely because we were going to ask you about that.
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I mean, you connected the dots really between the climate change and growing danger to many professions, particularly including those working indoors as well as outdoors.
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You know, do you have a you know a best case scenario for the future of worker protection, both indoor and outdoor in related to heat?
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And also do you have like a worst case scenario that you might want to talk about in relation to heat too in outdoor workers and indoor workers too?
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Aaron Powell I mean, the worst case scenario I think is that we just sort of freeze where we are and that we don't see further action by other states, that we don't see action at the federal level, that our you know currently relatively low private sector union density doesn't move, and that climate, that the temperatures keep rising and that people are put at greater risk.
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If you're asking me what the best case scenario is, like the best case scenario is that a very strong rule on workplace heat is ultimately enacted at the federal level, either under the Trump administration or under a subsequent administration, although a lot of people would die of workplace, you know, of workplace heat in the meantime, however long it takes.
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The most realistic path at the present, I think, is to have states passing laws that require employers to stay safe, to keep workers safe in extreme heat.
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We already do have a number of states that have done that, but more need to do that as well.
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That we would have local governments where the state doesn't act taking action to pass workplace heat rules.
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Even in places where they haven't passed heat rules that cover the entire locality, there are a number of counties in Arizona that have passed laws that require their government contractors to have heat workplace heat protections for outdoor workers.
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So that too is something that's useful.
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Every summer on the subreddit R heat prep, we see stories, people are sharing stories, tragic stories about workers that die from extreme heat.
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One story that really stood out was in the Wall Street Journal about a lineman named Corey Foster who died in 2023 after overheating on a job in Texas where the heat index reached 113 degrees Fahrenheit.
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And they go into great detail about what his final day looked like and all these opportunities at which someone could have intervened.
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So, you know, they talked about how you know this worker had had previous heat exhaustion and heat illness.
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He complained about chest pain and heat symptoms.
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He returned, he didn't go to the hospital, he went back to his hotel where they did not have air conditioning, he was left alone, and then when his you know co-workers returned, he was unresponsive.
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They even said that Osha went to the job site, they did a work site inspection, they closed the case without issuing a citation.
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And it just seems like there were so many steps for intervention.
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And uh I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how you know employers, and I think also how legislation can intervene in these, you know, situations to really prevent a death from happening.
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Well, the legislation, you know, without being familiar with that particular case, the legislation would require rest, it would require breaks, it would require a plan so that if someone has is having chest pains, so that you have an excellent emergency plan and they people get medical care and they're not left to just go home on their own, that people realize that this is serious.
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And I think the the effectiveness of these rules is really shown in the places where they've been implemented.
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There was an article about Oregon.
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Oregon had summer where they had really serious, like a very, very serious heat wave.
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And they ended up passing a heat heat standard requiring safety and the deaths requiring workplace heat safety.
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And the deaths in Oregon massively, massively declined subsequent to that law being passed.
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Like it really does save lives.
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And so I think that when you look at the actual statistics, and to the extent that, for example, Maryland just passed a law a year or two ago for people who are looking for interesting and impactful research projects, looking at the impact of these laws is something, you know, the Oregon information, I know about that from like an Oregon public radio report, right?
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But like I do think there's a lot of room for academic research to play a part in, you know, basically proving what we know from common sense to be true, that when you let people rest and give them water and shade on a really hot day, that you don't get these horrible outcomes.
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Yeah.
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Thank you so much, Terry, for that.
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So just before we end, any any final thoughts for our listeners out there?
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I mean, I guess the final thoughts would be first of all, just that people should really take the heat very seriously.
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It's so familiar to us that we've all been hot, we've all been sweaty, and there is that like warrior ethos, but like it is really dangerous.
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And if you're working in extreme heat, you should you need these protections and your life is so much more important.
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Like, yes, everybody needs a job and people need income and the economy is not doing well.
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But like, please, please keep yourself safe.
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Bring water, ask your, you know, get together with your coworkers, ask for the protections that you need.
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And then, you know, employers just to take this seriously.
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And then, you know, my final thought for policymakers and for advocates is just really, really to push for these laws.
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They are very important and they can save lives.
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And again, this is not rocket science.
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This is very, very basic human physiology and you know, just very basic measures that you can take that can have an outsized impact on keeping people safe.
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Well, thank you so much.
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And yeah, I know our listers are gonna love hearing about this.
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So thank you so much, Terry.
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Sure.
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Thank you, both of you.
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So, Nate, we just had Terry Gerstein on the show.
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What are your sort of initial sort of uh thoughts about what she was saying?
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Yeah, I mean it was it's interesting just to think about how much good this can do, uh, just broadly.
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I mean, she talked about right Oregon, which like they've got the numbers to show.
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People's lives are saved with this regulation.
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Uh but it was also really interesting to hear how simple it is.
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You know, I I think again, this links back to what other, you know, people that we've interviewed have said, right?
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The sometimes the best solution is not the most expensive one or the most high-tech.
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It's often the simple ones like rest, right?
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Water, shade, and just the awareness that this is a risk to people's health.
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Yeah, and absolutely.
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I I think when I was hearing Terry's words, you know, the tension between the sort of worker productivity and the basic requirements to prevent heat-related illness, it there is certainly a tension there because you know, the the solutions are so simple, yet they don't sometimes don't get sort of implemented.
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And I think there's a combination, as Terry said, of a lack of knowledge of what actually the risk is.
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But also I think, you know, from a worker's point of view, it even taking a five-minute break in the shade can can be a tall order.
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And so there is a sort of tension to unlock there.
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So it certainly made me think of that when Terry was speaking too.
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Yeah, and I you know, I it makes me think about all the people that are listening who might be, you know, a worker that's exposed to extreme heat in a place that doesn't have, you know, these protections.
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And, you know, what does that look like for them?
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I I mean, she talks a lot about the role of advocacy and really like getting together with your fellow workers, but I think there's also just this awareness building that's so critical.
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You know, she talked about knowing what to do, knowing that it's a risk.
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You know, one of the things is just recognizing the signs of heat, heat illness, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, and being able to take action beforehand.
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So while I think it's critical that there's advocacy, you know, in this direction, I feel like there's also work that can be done, worker-to-worker, supporting each other.
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You know, it sounds like employers also, a lot of it's just around awareness building because people really want to make sure that, you know, workers are not dying, community members are not being impacted.
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So yeah, yeah.
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I think to your point, there's a lot of education that can take place with regards to the actual risk, both for the employee and the employer, the workers.
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And and that gap there, as it's filled, I think a lot of heat-related deaths can be prevented.
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You know, ultimately all of heat-related deaths are are preventable in this context.
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And so, like, as a worker in the summer, standing out in the heat, you know, as they're experiencing these extreme summer temperatures that, you know, really can pose great risks.
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I think there are simple solutions.
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It's water, it's shade, it's just time, slower work.
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I think those uh simple messages are the ones that really need to be transmitted again and again, the more and more to survive the climate.
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Yeah.
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And you know, this just reminds me of the subreddit, our heat prep, right?
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I I think there's so much that we can learn from others on that subreddit, both when it comes to people that are experiencing these hot conditions, but also others who are sharing, you know, solutions that they've found.
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And again, you know, if if people are interested to hear about these tragic stories, you can just go back and search on that subreddit, and you really just get this like growing repository of these tragic cases where there were many opportunities for intervention, for prevention, preventing the heat illness, from identifying it early on, and then from supporting the person getting treatment.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think those personal stories are so important to drive that large-scale change.
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And so, you know, those uh sad as they are, those R heat prep stories are really, really uh grounding for this kind of thing.
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Well, thank you for listening to this episode of Surviving the Climate.
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If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review it on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
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00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:26.400
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00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:34.240
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00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.799
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00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:46.640
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00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.720
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00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:57.519
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00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.759
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00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.720
Thanks a lot.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.680
I'm Robbie Parks, and I'm Nate Matthews Drake.
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:10.880
And this is Surviving the Climate, a podcast that gives practical advice for regular people on how to deal with the climate crisis.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:16.559
Our guest today is Terry Gerstein, the director of the NYU Wagner Labor Initiative.
00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:23.120
We'll talk about how workers can stay safe during heat waves and what employers can do to keep their workers safe.
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And a few notes before we get into the interview.
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This was recorded on March 19th, 2026.
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We will make references to OSHA a few times.
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And OSHA stands for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
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And it's an agency in the U.S.
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that sets federal workplace safety standards.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.920
Terry, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:51.280
Thank you for having me.
00:00:51.759 --> 00:01:01.359
Part of this Surviving the Climate show is really trying to explain how you would sort of discuss your work with your family and friends.
00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:09.359
So kind of like if you had to, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner or just to to friends and family in the park, how would you describe like what you do?
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:26.799
So in general, what I do is I trap I work with many state and local government agencies and officials and try to help them learn more about workers' rights, get involved in workers' rights, whether through enforcement or policy.
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:52.560
And also I have created several communities or networks of state and local enforcers so that they can learn from each other and really build a community and be as effective as possible in standing up for workers' rights at the state and local level, which is something that's always important, but is also even more important now that we see a lot of rollbacks at the federal level.
00:01:52.799 --> 00:02:04.319
State and local government play such an important role in stepping up, in creating guardrails for corporations that would take advantage of people in a whole variety of ways.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:12.159
So I'm sort of I sort of try to build connective tissues among people working on workers' rights issues in different jurisdictions across the country.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:12.719
Great.
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.199
So Terry, before you were in New York, we saw that you were based in Miami.
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.879
And of course, Miami is one of the most, you know, hot and humid places in the United States.
00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:33.439
So, you know, when the temperatures are really hot in a place like Miami, who comes to mind when it comes to workers that are at greatest risk and really need protections?
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And then how does this different in a place like New York?
00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:50.319
Well, I think that the the issues are the same in Miami or New York in terms of the workplace protections that people need, because, you know, the human body is the same in Miami and and in New York, right?
00:02:50.719 --> 00:03:00.240
Once it's above a certain temperature, there are real impacts for workplace safety and physiological reactions that people's bodies have.
00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:04.319
The only thing that I think is different is, you know, two major differences.
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:11.759
One is that obviously in Miami there are way, way more days of extreme heat than we have in New York.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:23.599
And then the second difference is that one of the major and very important recommendations in relation to protecting workers in in extreme heat is having gradual acclimatization.
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:36.879
So if someone is, you know, here in the Northeast, if someone is, we haven't had any, you know, extremely hot days, and then suddenly it's extremely hot, you know, we have a heat wave of several days.
00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:45.039
Workers can't work the same that they have, you know, from day of, you know, 65 degrees to a day of like 98 degrees.
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:48.479
You have to, the the body needs time to adjust.
00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:54.719
And so that need for gradual acclimatization is the same no matter where you are.
00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:06.960
But, you know, if once you're, you know, if you if you're already acclimatized because you're already in a warmer temperature, you might, you know, the the acclimatization process might look different.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.439
You also ask what kind of workers are affected.
00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:25.040
So obviously all kinds of outdoor workers, farm workers, people on construction sites, delivery workers, people, you know, there are postal workers or, you know, UPS workers who have had really extreme impacts because of workplace heat.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.160
Miami has a huge flower industry.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:35.839
A lot of the flowers that we have all over the country come from, come through and from the Miami area.
00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:41.600
And so those workers who are working outside and in those industries are at risk.
00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:48.240
But then also workers who are indoors, if they don't have air conditioning, can be at risk too.
00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:54.240
Workers in, you know, think of cafeterias or industrial laundries that might not have air conditioning.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:09.279
Think of warehouse workers outside, also a lot of government contractors, in addition to construction workers, as I mentioned, think of people, for example, working at airports, working on the tarmac, doing the outdoor work at airports.
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:35.839
So, you know, when you just think about all the kinds of jobs where people would be exposed to extreme heat if they're outside, and jobs where if people do not have air conditioning or cooling areas, sufficient cooling areas and they're inside, and it's, you know, very, you know, it's those are the situations where where we have workers who are really affected by by workplace heat.
00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:47.920
You mentioned a few sort of techniques there, but you know, in terms of the employer of these workers, what are the ways that employers, you know, how are they responsible and what can they do to keep workers safe during a heat wave?
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:53.360
For example, you know, some methods are more high-tech, some are more straightforward.
00:05:53.439 --> 00:06:01.120
And I would would you be able to sort of think uh take us through some examples of of those responsibilities for particular employers?
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:12.560
You know, it's kind of amazing because truly the most important things are actually pretty low-tech and pretty simple and pretty easy for everyone to remember.
00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.360
Like you could save it in a screenshot.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.240
Like it's really just a few key points.
00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:22.079
And obviously, employers have to figure out how to operationalize it, right?
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:28.639
But it's that people need water, they need you know clean drinking water, ideally cool, clean drinking water.
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They need water, they need rest.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.000
If it's extreme heat, they might need more breaks than usual.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:38.240
They need shade or a cooler area to cool off in.
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They need training and the supervisors need training so they know what the risks are of heat exhaustion and heat stroke, and they need gradual acclimatization, as I mentioned.
00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:55.680
So you can't go from, you know, zero to a hundred without gradually getting used to things.
00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:07.120
So if a person is a new worker who's being in a very strenuous working in a very strenuous job, you might want to have, for example, a buddy system or make sure that the person is supervised.
00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:11.360
And you need a plan for if things do go wrong.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:29.360
A lot of the measures that people need to take, that employers need to take in terms of workplace safety and health, just involve advanced planning, taking the time ahead of time to analyze your operations and what where are the risks and where are the hazards and how can you operate things differently?
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:36.000
So, for example, if it's an extremely hot day and they're, you know, if the like if you're watching the weather ahead of time, right?
00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:47.120
And it's gonna be a huge heat wave, maybe some operations can be moved too earlier in the day so people are not working in the very hottest part of the middle of the day.
00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:52.800
Maybe additional workers can be brought on so that people can have more rest time.
00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:01.920
But there's very strong evidence that, you know, when workers, there's the issue of heat exhaustion and heat stroke, which are like the direct injuries because of heat.
00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:13.040
But there's research showing that when there are temperatures above 80 degrees and 90 degrees, there's more workplace injuries of other kinds, like people falling because they're exhausted and have heat stress.
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:23.120
So this is not, this is not something that is, you know, this is not something that is complicated and it and yet it's something that can really save lives and keep people safe.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:33.919
One thing that comes to mind is, you know, we've got, you know, listeners that are in places that probably don't have heat protections.
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:45.440
And what advice would you have for them if they're working in places where they're exposed to hot temperatures to advocate for themselves, or you know, what what options do they have really?
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.120
I mean, I think it's a there's a number of things that people can do.
00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.840
And I think that's a it's a very good question.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:09:07.919
So one is first of all to find out what the law is in your state, because there are a number of states like California, Oregon, Washington, most recently Maryland, that have laws on the books that protect people from workplace heat.
00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:09.200
So that's the first thing.
00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:10.159
Find out what the law is.
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:17.120
Second, obviously, if you have a union, the union is the first place to go to deal with, you know, this kind of issue.
00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:34.639
Unions have really focused, historically for many, many years, have focused on improving workplace safety and health and raising issues with employers and working, you know, sometimes adversarially, sometimes collaboratively with employers, to find ways to keep workers safe and minimize injuries.
00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:35.679
So that's another thing.
00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:36.879
If you have a union.
00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:56.240
If you don't have a union, I think it's generally always a good idea to talk with fellow workers and talk and talk with your co-workers because generally collective action and taking whatever kind of action you would do together is more effective and it gives you some additional legal protection as well.
00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:09.759
I think another thing is just do some research on workplace heat to find out what the measures are that even though they may not be the law in your state, what it is that is needed to stay safe and gather some resources.
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:22.960
It's always valuable to have some kind of you know legal advice if you can before you go and talk to your employer and raise something, just because the, you know, people, people need their jobs.
00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:31.120
It is generally illegal for employers to retaliate against workers for raising this kind of issue, particularly if it's if they're raising it collectively.
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.399
But retaliation does happen, illegal though it is.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:42.240
And so it is a good idea to sort of, you know, find out what the, what your, you know, what your legal rights are beforehand.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:51.519
But I do think heat is one of the situations where a lot of times employers and the general public don't understand how dangerous this is.
00:10:51.679 --> 00:11:02.000
I once wrote an op-ed about workplace heat, and and you're never supposed to read the comments, but I read the comments and there were people who were saying, like, what's the problem?
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:03.360
It gets hot in the summer.
00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:04.399
I live in Texas.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.080
We were always hot in the summer.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.200
But I think people don't understand what the risk is.
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:19.440
There's a way that if someone was working outside during a blizzard with a t-shirt and shorts, like everyone viscerally would understand that they were putting their body at risk.
00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:21.519
And that was a dangerous situation, right?
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:32.399
But I think with workplace heat, people don't necessarily sort of absorb it or it doesn't resonate as the same kind of danger as it is, as it really is.
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:42.399
And, you know, the the temperatures are higher than, you know, to whoever it was who like used to work in the heat in Texas back in their childhood in the 60s or 70s or 80s.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.720
Like the temperatures are hotter than they were.
00:11:44.960 --> 00:12:04.399
And like riding your bike around as a kid in Texas in the 70s is not the same as performing extremely strenuous work, you know, in agriculture or on a construction site, or, you know, it driving around in an air-conditioned vehicle for hours and hours and hours at a time.
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:05.360
Yeah.
00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:11.679
And you know, you mentioning the New York Times opinion piece, which is very timely because we were going to ask you about that.
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:20.799
I mean, you connected the dots really between the climate change and growing danger to many professions, particularly including those working indoors as well as outdoors.
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:28.639
You know, do you have a you know a best case scenario for the future of worker protection, both indoor and outdoor in related to heat?
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:36.720
And also do you have like a worst case scenario that you might want to talk about in relation to heat too in outdoor workers and indoor workers too?
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:58.000
Aaron Powell I mean, the worst case scenario I think is that we just sort of freeze where we are and that we don't see further action by other states, that we don't see action at the federal level, that our you know currently relatively low private sector union density doesn't move, and that climate, that the temperatures keep rising and that people are put at greater risk.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:17.039
If you're asking me what the best case scenario is, like the best case scenario is that a very strong rule on workplace heat is ultimately enacted at the federal level, either under the Trump administration or under a subsequent administration, although a lot of people would die of workplace, you know, of workplace heat in the meantime, however long it takes.
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:29.679
The most realistic path at the present, I think, is to have states passing laws that require employers to stay safe, to keep workers safe in extreme heat.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:34.480
We already do have a number of states that have done that, but more need to do that as well.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:42.639
That we would have local governments where the state doesn't act taking action to pass workplace heat rules.
00:13:42.960 --> 00:14:00.240
Even in places where they haven't passed heat rules that cover the entire locality, there are a number of counties in Arizona that have passed laws that require their government contractors to have heat workplace heat protections for outdoor workers.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.879
So that too is something that's useful.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:16.320
Every summer on the subreddit R heat prep, we see stories, people are sharing stories, tragic stories about workers that die from extreme heat.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:30.720
One story that really stood out was in the Wall Street Journal about a lineman named Corey Foster who died in 2023 after overheating on a job in Texas where the heat index reached 113 degrees Fahrenheit.
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:42.720
And they go into great detail about what his final day looked like and all these opportunities at which someone could have intervened.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:51.200
So, you know, they talked about how you know this worker had had previous heat exhaustion and heat illness.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.120
He complained about chest pain and heat symptoms.
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He returned, he didn't go to the hospital, he went back to his hotel where they did not have air conditioning, he was left alone, and then when his you know co-workers returned, he was unresponsive.
00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:14.320
They even said that Osha went to the job site, they did a work site inspection, they closed the case without issuing a citation.
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.159
And it just seems like there were so many steps for intervention.
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:31.360
And uh I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how you know employers, and I think also how legislation can intervene in these, you know, situations to really prevent a death from happening.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:16:00.240
Well, the legislation, you know, without being familiar with that particular case, the legislation would require rest, it would require breaks, it would require a plan so that if someone has is having chest pains, so that you have an excellent emergency plan and they people get medical care and they're not left to just go home on their own, that people realize that this is serious.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:08.000
And I think the the effectiveness of these rules is really shown in the places where they've been implemented.
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.399
There was an article about Oregon.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:17.600
Oregon had summer where they had really serious, like a very, very serious heat wave.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:27.200
And they ended up passing a heat heat standard requiring safety and the deaths requiring workplace heat safety.
00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:35.120
And the deaths in Oregon massively, massively declined subsequent to that law being passed.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.360
Like it really does save lives.
00:16:37.519 --> 00:17:00.240
And so I think that when you look at the actual statistics, and to the extent that, for example, Maryland just passed a law a year or two ago for people who are looking for interesting and impactful research projects, looking at the impact of these laws is something, you know, the Oregon information, I know about that from like an Oregon public radio report, right?
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:17.279
But like I do think there's a lot of room for academic research to play a part in, you know, basically proving what we know from common sense to be true, that when you let people rest and give them water and shade on a really hot day, that you don't get these horrible outcomes.
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:17.839
Yeah.
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.599
Thank you so much, Terry, for that.
00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:24.079
So just before we end, any any final thoughts for our listeners out there?
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:30.240
I mean, I guess the final thoughts would be first of all, just that people should really take the heat very seriously.
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:39.200
It's so familiar to us that we've all been hot, we've all been sweaty, and there is that like warrior ethos, but like it is really dangerous.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:48.400
And if you're working in extreme heat, you should you need these protections and your life is so much more important.
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:54.640
Like, yes, everybody needs a job and people need income and the economy is not doing well.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839
But like, please, please keep yourself safe.
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:04.960
Bring water, ask your, you know, get together with your coworkers, ask for the protections that you need.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.839
And then, you know, employers just to take this seriously.
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:17.599
And then, you know, my final thought for policymakers and for advocates is just really, really to push for these laws.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.319
They are very important and they can save lives.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:24.400
And again, this is not rocket science.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:36.960
This is very, very basic human physiology and you know, just very basic measures that you can take that can have an outsized impact on keeping people safe.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:38.400
Well, thank you so much.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.279
And yeah, I know our listers are gonna love hearing about this.
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:42.960
So thank you so much, Terry.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:43.920
Sure.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.000
Thank you, both of you.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.279
So, Nate, we just had Terry Gerstein on the show.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:58.480
What are your sort of initial sort of uh thoughts about what she was saying?
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:05.279
Yeah, I mean it was it's interesting just to think about how much good this can do, uh, just broadly.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:09.519
I mean, she talked about right Oregon, which like they've got the numbers to show.
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.079
People's lives are saved with this regulation.
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:16.240
Uh but it was also really interesting to hear how simple it is.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:22.240
You know, I I think again, this links back to what other, you know, people that we've interviewed have said, right?
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.079
The sometimes the best solution is not the most expensive one or the most high-tech.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.000
It's often the simple ones like rest, right?
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:35.440
Water, shade, and just the awareness that this is a risk to people's health.
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:37.680
Yeah, and absolutely.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:58.720
I I think when I was hearing Terry's words, you know, the tension between the sort of worker productivity and the basic requirements to prevent heat-related illness, it there is certainly a tension there because you know, the the solutions are so simple, yet they don't sometimes don't get sort of implemented.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:05.839
And I think there's a combination, as Terry said, of a lack of knowledge of what actually the risk is.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:14.160
But also I think, you know, from a worker's point of view, it even taking a five-minute break in the shade can can be a tall order.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.359
And so there is a sort of tension to unlock there.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.000
So it certainly made me think of that when Terry was speaking too.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:31.839
Yeah, and I you know, I it makes me think about all the people that are listening who might be, you know, a worker that's exposed to extreme heat in a place that doesn't have, you know, these protections.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.319
And, you know, what does that look like for them?
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:44.079
I I mean, she talks a lot about the role of advocacy and really like getting together with your fellow workers, but I think there's also just this awareness building that's so critical.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:48.880
You know, she talked about knowing what to do, knowing that it's a risk.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:57.759
You know, one of the things is just recognizing the signs of heat, heat illness, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, and being able to take action beforehand.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:08.880
So while I think it's critical that there's advocacy, you know, in this direction, I feel like there's also work that can be done, worker-to-worker, supporting each other.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:19.920
You know, it sounds like employers also, a lot of it's just around awareness building because people really want to make sure that, you know, workers are not dying, community members are not being impacted.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.440
So yeah, yeah.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:30.720
I think to your point, there's a lot of education that can take place with regards to the actual risk, both for the employee and the employer, the workers.
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:36.960
And and that gap there, as it's filled, I think a lot of heat-related deaths can be prevented.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.440
You know, ultimately all of heat-related deaths are are preventable in this context.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:52.640
And so, like, as a worker in the summer, standing out in the heat, you know, as they're experiencing these extreme summer temperatures that, you know, really can pose great risks.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.440
I think there are simple solutions.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:00.799
It's water, it's shade, it's just time, slower work.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:11.039
I think those uh simple messages are the ones that really need to be transmitted again and again, the more and more to survive the climate.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.000
Yeah.
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.039
And you know, this just reminds me of the subreddit, our heat prep, right?
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:30.240
I I think there's so much that we can learn from others on that subreddit, both when it comes to people that are experiencing these hot conditions, but also others who are sharing, you know, solutions that they've found.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:52.880
And again, you know, if if people are interested to hear about these tragic stories, you can just go back and search on that subreddit, and you really just get this like growing repository of these tragic cases where there were many opportunities for intervention, for prevention, preventing the heat illness, from identifying it early on, and then from supporting the person getting treatment.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.720
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:59.920
I think those personal stories are so important to drive that large-scale change.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:08.319
And so, you know, those uh sad as they are, those R heat prep stories are really, really uh grounding for this kind of thing.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.559
Well, thank you for listening to this episode of Surviving the Climate.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:19.680
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review it on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.400
It really helps more people find the show.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:26.400
Also, for our Redditors out there, please check out the discussion.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:34.240
We will create a discussion post on our subreddit, rheet underscore prep, and there'll be a lot of discussion there.
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.799
You can ask any questions or share any comments.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:46.640
And for those not on Reddit, please comment as much as you like on each of the episodes wherever you actually listen to us on your podcast, because that also helps.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.720
And the feedback is very useful too.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:57.519
To generally stay up to date with the podcast, follow us on social media at surviving the climate and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.759
Please like and subscribe if possible.
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.720
Thanks a lot.
