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TRANSCRIPT:
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William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. [Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swords, and men fighting]
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William: I’m Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.
Adrian: And I am Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.
William: Together, we will explore some of the well known and not-so-known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.
[Sounds of muskets, horses, and men shouting]
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William: So, this first episode is going to be more of an introduction to what we’re looking to accomplish here. Ranger Adrian and myself are National Park Service rangers, both at two Revolutionary War sites here in the American South. And we are going to use this to explore into a little more depth some of the stories here in the southern part of the American Revolution, both some of the influential events, locations, actors. Really kind of get a deeper understanding that connects all of these different National Parks, State Parks, and other sites here in the American South. So before we get kind of too started with this, Ranger Adrian, tell us a little bit more about yourself and where you’re from.
Adrian: All right. Well thank you Will. So as Will said, I am Ranger Adrian and I am at Ninety Six National Historic Site which is in Greenwood County, South Carolina. Originally I am from York County, South Carolina, so just about two hours away from here. But I went to school in Charleston and my dad was actually a huge part in me becoming a park ranger. He was a big history buff, especially the Revolutionary War, so every time we went somewhere we had to stop and see the sites. And that love of history just kind of was past on and you know you get to be older and grudgingly you have to say, “Thanks Dad for making me stop at all these sites I didn’t want to stop at.” I have a major in Historic Preservation and Community Planning from the College of Charleston, so you know, been surrounded by history for a really long time. But I’ve been here at Ninety Six for eight years now and hope to stay for a good long while.
William: And Adrian, what’s one of your favorite things about working there at Ninety Six National Historic Site?
Adrian: So, I really like that we have such a long time period we can cover. And y’all will find out as we go through the podcast what I’m talking about. But we’ve got pre-Revolutionary settlement through post-Revolutionary settlement. So, I like having a long time period to look at, it makes things interesting.
William: So, and if people get the chance to come down and visit Ninety Six what would you say is, I know we’re going to get more into the details about the history of the site in later episodes, but what would you say is one of the key things, one of your favorite things that you always recommend getting a chance to see and explore for people that get a chance to visit?
Adrian: Oh, I definitely suggest walking the main battlefield trail. You’ll see the Star Fort, which is the only remaining earthen star fort that we know of from the Revolutionary War. It would be really cool if you could also see the mine that’s there, but unfortunately can’t see that. But it is there, so that’s another really cool thing, really cool resource that we have. We have these two Revolutionary period engineering marvels almost, that are, you know, original and that are almost 250 years old.
William: And now when you say mine, you talking coal mine? Gold mine?
Adrian: Laughs. Yeah, no military mine, so really more of like a tunnel.
William: Okay. So I am Ranger William, and I am the interpretive ranger for Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. I’ve been with the trail at the time of this recording 4 years now and I’ve been involved with the National Park Service for 10 years. I’ve been involved with other historic preservation societies, organizations, historic sites for about 5 years in addition to that. Grew up in a military family. I like to claim kind of the upstate of South Carolina, the Spartanburg area as home. I actually got into history, um kind of the converse of Ranger Adrian’s story, I was the one dragging my family into it. Grew up in a town with a lot of history, a lot of historical events, and I always wanted to go and see these reenactments these living history demonstrations. My family started volunteering there to help be a part that and then as soon as I got the chance to start working in the field, I jumped at it. So, I have a history degree, a Bachelor of History degree from North Greenville University and a masters in Park and Recreation Management from Clemson University.
Adrian: So, what would you say is your favorite part of the Overmountain Victory Trail?
William: Ooh. If you’ve ever watched the Lord of the Rings movies, and you just love the adventure and the drama of when you have the Fellowship of the Nine on their way to Mordor, climbing up and over the mountain. The big sweeping vistas and dramatic music. Take those guys but make them patriots. That’s pretty much the story here. There’s a few great places where you can go and explore. We’re kind of unique in that we are a National Historic Trail, not a battlefield or a quote-unquote park. So, we are a 330-mile motor route, with 87 miles of certified hikeable trails scattered along that corridor, where you can actually retrace the route used by thousands of patriots in September and October 1780 as they were making their way to the Battle of Kings Mountain. So you have this sense of drama, this sense of adventure, especially when you’re able to go hike on places like up in the Blue Ridge Mountains, up on the Appalachian Trail, and see this is where these guys walked. This is the mountain pass, this is the gap they used, this is where they made their camps, and set foot in those same places. So, we’ll get much more into the details of that story and the drama in a later episode. But just the chance to be there and kind of witness part of this exciting quest, I guess you could call it, is one of my favorite things about it.
Adrian: I’ve never thought of that comparison, but that’s actually really good. [Laughs]
William: Yeah, you have, you know, John Sevier, Isaac Shelby, Benjamin Cleveland. You have my rifle, and my hatchet, and my powder horn. You can direct comparison with these guys.
Adrian: Yeah. So I know you’ve been hiking and videoing your hikes a lot. Have you done all 87 miles yet?
William: No, I have not. At the time of this recording, I’d like to think I’m about halfway. There are quite a few portions that are on my to-do list, which hopefully I’ll be able to knock out soon.
Adrian: Awesome.
William: So, know that you kind of, everyone knows a little bit more about us, about our home parks, let’s get into some of the details about what we’re going to be talking about. One thing I want to point out is our introduction. We are a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So, Adrian tell us a little bit more, explain to the folks why we went with this theater designation and maybe not the Southern Campaign, which they will hear in other places.
Adrian: Sure. So we went with the Southern Theater because we wanted to be able to cover more than just the dates from 1778 to 1782 or 3. And there’s so many stories that fall before the official Southern Campaign, which like Ranger Will said, you’ll hear more about later on. And if you are a Revolutionary War buff you know that the Southern Campaign is covered a lot of places. So, for example, the next episode is going to be on the first battle of Ninety Six, and that first battle happens in 1775. That is outside of the dates that the Southern Campaign traditionally covers, and so because of the really fascinating stories that happen before the 1778 fall of Savannah, um, you know we want to include all that we can and let people get the whole story for the South and not just the later part of the war. So, hopefully that kind of answers your “why the theater instead of the campaign?” question.
William: Yeah, absolutely. And something to point out too, is when we’re talking about the Southern Theater, lets talk a little bit about where we’re going to be talking about.
Adrian: Yeah.
William: Because south is just a direction, so its pretty relative. I mean if we were a couple New England sites, if we were hosting this out of Lexington and Concord, and the southern part of the war, I mean shoot that’s everything. So being located in the Carolinas, like we are, with Adrian at Ninety Six in South Carolina and myself with the Overmountain Victory Trail, we are Tennessee, the Carolinas and Virginia. So to us the Southern Theater of the war is going to be Virginia south, and we’re going to hopefully get all the way down to Florida. Covering everything from the coast from Savannah, Fort Moultrie, Sullivan’s Island, the Outer Banks or North Carolina working our way all the way into the mountains, into the Appalachian Mountains. We are going to kind of draw a line; however, we’re not going to go too far west past the Appalachians. Simply because then you’re kind of getting more into what would be considered the Western Theater. At least that’s the line that we are drawing for the sake of just trying to contain how far we stray with this podcast. But we are defiantly going to want to get into the Floridas. Not sure how much we’ll get into the Gulf Coast campaigns, but Florida up to Virginia, beaches to the Blue Ridge. What do you think, Adrian, something like that?
Adrian: Yeah, I think that sounds good. There’re so many stories just within that constraint.
William: And if we end up needing to go on some adventures later on we’ll maybe do a little disclaimer that we’re going on a field trip.
Adrian: Yeah.
William: Now when we’re talking about the war here in the South though, I want to, before we kind of wrap up this episode. I want to talk a little bit more about how the war is going to look here in the South. So for example, one thing that folks often ask me about the fighting in the Southern Theater is who are some of your main belligerents? Who are some of your people who are always going to be fighting? And I think it’s important to remember, it’s important to remember some history that’s been forgotten, I guess is how you could put it. When you look at some of the early history books written by both American and British historians and veterans, from the late 18th early 19th century, they don’t call it the American Revolution. And Adrian, I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, but they call it a civil war.
Adrian: Yes
William: They call it the American Civil War, the American Rebellion. Can you explain a little bit more to people why it’s being called this and what, kind of give them a taste of what they’re going to find in our adventures?
Adrian: Yeah, sure. So, especially in the South and in the backcountry, where both Will and I are, the Revolution really was by definition a civil war. You had basically neighbor against neighbor. You had brother against brother, brother against father. I’ve even found you know cases where, maybe the woman didn’t go and fight, but she was supporting maybe the loyalist side instead of the rebel or patriot side. So, by all definitions the Revolution, especially in the South, is a civil war. So yeah, and in the South, you do have people coming from outside of the South and fighting, but again even at Ninety Six for our 1781 battle, the second battle at Ninety Six, everybody with the exception of one person during that siege is born in America. So even if they’re not from the South, and are from the North or somewhere else, they’re still an American by birth. And so ,yeah, it’s definitely a civil war.
William: Yeah, same story with me. With Overmountain Victory, I mean, you’re looking at from my estimates at least 2,000 patriot frontiersmen are gathering and pursuing a British officer, Patrick Ferguson. He is a Scot, but he is leading an army of locals. Now he has about 90 loyalists, Americans from New Jersey and New York who were aiding him, but the majority of his army, about close to 1,000 more men are local; they are backcountry. And just like you said there are plenty of cases, documented stories of brothers against brothers and fathers against sons. Which I would love to share. Maybe we’ll do a whole episode about some of the personal split family nature of the fighting.
Adrian: Yeah, that would be awesome.
William: Now, have you come across the John Adams quote about the population being in thirds?
Adrian: Yes, I have.
William: What is your take? So, for those who haven’t heard. At one point John Adams was asked about the American Revolution. Which, I mean if you had the chance to ask John Adams about the Revolution, by-God you would do it.
Adrian: [laugh]
William: But, he famously said back that the population was divided in thirds, one third being for Revolution, one third being against it, and then that last third being neutral. What is your opinion? What is your explanation for his quote?
Adrian: Well, I kind of think, you know, maybe earlier in the war that there probably were more people that were just kind of neutral. But war in your back yard kind of tends to sway you one way or the other, so by later in the war I kind of wonder if it’s not leaning toward one side or the other and fewer that are actually neutral. And of course, there are also cases that we see where people are fair-weather fighters and are constantly changing sides. So. [laugh]
William: M-hm.
Adrian: Yeah, I don’t know. I definitely think it’s one of those things it’s hard to know and today, we’re not there and can’t know for sure. But what about you? What do you think?
William: I like your opinion that it’s more of a “when in the war you’re looking at.” For me, I’ve always kind of explained that as a “where.” How you know John Adams being in Boston, New England, Massachusetts.
Adrian: M-hm.
William: Up there perhaps you did have more of that last third, folks who were able to be neutral at least kind of passingly keep their heads down, give lip-service to whatever side was in power. Adrian: Right.
William: For me I think in the South you don’t see that. At least you don’t see that after 1775. There’s one letter from Nathanael Greene, who is a Continental Army general, takes command here in the South on December 3, 1780. When he is writing back to his wife Caty a lot of his letters will talk about the horrors of fighting here in the South and how difficult things are. But one of my favorite little, one of his quotes where it’s something to the effect of, “where with us the difference between Whig and Tory is a difference in sentiment, but here they pursue each other with little less than savage fury.” I’m kind of paraphrasing a little bit there, but what he’s noticing is that here in the South, people seem to be taking it more to heart. I think you have a lot of other factors at play that are making people fight so much more viciously. Adrian: Yeah.
William: And one example I want to bring up, which is going to be kind of tied in with your story especially. Let talk a little about Thomas Brown. Adrian: Yeah.
William: Thomas Brown is going to be one of those guys who is going to attempt being neutral in 1775 but is going to be confronted on his plantation outside Augusta, Georgia. He is going to be approached by the Committee of Safety, so this is going to be one of your very early pro-patriot, kind of pseudo-government bodies, organizing themselves to oppose the British. He is going to be approached by the Committee of Safety. He is going to refuse to sign and join with them. And this is actually, I’ve got here in front of me, a account of what happened. He says quote, “I was ordered to appear before a committee then sitting in Augusta, and on my refusal to attend a party consisting of 130 armed men headed by the committee, surrounded my house in South Carolina and ordered me to surrender myself a prisoner and subscribe a traitorous association. I told them my determination to defend myself if any person presumed to molest me. On their attempting to disarm me I shot one of the ring leaders. Being overpowered, stabbed in many places, my skull fractured by a blow from a rifle, I was dragged in a state of insensibility to Augusta. My hair was then chiefly torn up by the roots, what remained stripped off by knives, my head scalped in three or four different places. My legs tarred and burnt by lighted torches from which I lost the use of two of my toes and rendered incapable of setting my feet to the ground for six months. In this condition after their laying waste a very considerable property, I was relieved by my friends and was conveyed to the interior parts of South Carolina.” So there you just have one account of someone who attempted to be neutral, who attempted to not get involved. So, I think that’s going to be more or a regional difference compared to the Northern New England colonies and than here in the South.
Adrian: Oh, definitely. And that just reminds me, you know, South Carolina has some really crazy nicknames for some people. And you know he is “Burntfoot Brown.”
William: “Burntfoot Brown,” right up there with “Bloody Bill Cunningham.”
Adrian: Burntfoot Thomas Brown. M-hm. You read that, what he went through, and I’m yeah if somebody did that to me, I would join the other side too.
William: And it really does kind of come down to at what point is force too much force? Adrian: Right.
William: Because you do see both sides at different times during the war using coercion, using threats, using intimidation, but then you do see it kind of counter-swing. You see, okay if you go too far, if you are too strict you’re actually going to force people away from your side.
Adrian: Right. Well and you know, the same thing, well not exactly the same thing, he’s not tortured like that, but Pickens later in the war his home is destroyed and that sends him to the patriot side. After he’s said yeah, I won’t fight anymore.
William: Yeah, to be fair I think Pickens was kind of just waiting for the opportunity.
Adrian: I think so too, but it was kind of, the British and loyalist side definitely messed up when they burned his home. Gave him an excuse to break parole. [laugh]
William: But one last note I wanted to include about Thomas Brown and talking about the civil war nature of the Revolution here in the Southern Theater. April 12, 1778, so spoiler alert, Brown is going to go on and be a large loyalist leader, he’s going to go on scouting missions, raiding missions. At first just for the Governor of Florida, not under the British Army. But he is going to report back on April 12, 1778, about how many loyalists there still are in the Carolinas, in the South, two years, or almost two years after the Declaration of Independence. After independence has been declared, after the war has taken on a very different tone. And in his report, he says that between the Broad River and Saluda River, so kind of your very up northwestern part of South Carolina, Brown reported that there were 2,500 loyalists. He says there were “1,000 more on the South Fork, a considerable party in the Congarees” so that’s around Columbia, South Carolina today, “and 2,800 on the western border of North Carolina.” So, this is something important to remember. Here you’re looking at 1778, again two years after independence, this is going to be only a few years away from where the main British Army is going to reach the same areas during their Southern Strategy, their Southern Campaign. You’re looking at a very large loyalist population. It’s not quite certain exactly how many people were living in the backcountry at this time. We can’t get like a percentage break down. But going back to John Adams with his thirty, thirty, thirties; Adrian what would you say your kind of patriot-loyalist division was percentage wise?
Adrian: Oh gosh. By that point I lean towards probably, I don’t know. They always try to say that there’s a lot of, you know, loyalist support back here, but I kind of think if there is that they have been suppressed for so long that it’s really more of a “well I kind of think that way but I’m not going to stick my neck out.” So, I would say, oh I don’t know, forty percent like die-hard patriots with maybe another twenty percent like “yeah, I’m just joining so I don’t you know get on the wrong side or something like that.” Geesh I don’t know. [laugh]
William: So, I was actually going to say something similar. Yeah, I was going to say a forty-sixty split. But that middle ten to twenty percent, it is a spectrum. It is important to point that out.
Adrian: Yeah.
William: That just because someone is a voting patriot, or they are supporting the patriot cause, that does not necessarily mean that they’re going to be out in arms with the patriot army. And if they see massive British victories their resolve may not hold. They may go into hiding. They may rejoin the King’s militia, take the Oath of Neutrality. We’re going to get into all of this later on I’m sure. But yeah, so again you’re looking at John Adams’s famous one thirds explanation of the loyalty of the people maybe not holding so true to the American South. Be it because of a different place or at different times. But yes, what you’re going to be seeing here in the Southern War Podcast, you’re going to see a lot of references to the civil war nature of the fighting, to these militias, these neighbors, these locals, these friends now being in arms against each other. Now one more thing I want to clarify. Adrian what are your favorite terms to use when we are talking about these two different sides?
Adrian: I find myself usually using loyalist and patriot. I think primarily because, you know, I talk to a lot of school groups and those seem to be the terms that they know the best. I try to not use, you know “the British,” unless someone really just has no clue, because as I mentioned earlier there is nobody from England here at Ninety Six. They might have been British subjects but they’re not from England, they’re not British royal soldiers, or regular soldiers. They are like you said militia. They are Royal Provincials from America. So, I tend to stick with patriots and loyalist.
William: So, I kind of have a soft spot for Whig and Tory.
Adrian: Yeah, the old fashioned.
William: Yeah, just because of how much these terms appear in the period sources.
Adrian: Yeah, I do like those terms. It’s just when you’re talking to modern day people. [laugh]
William: Right. So, I mean it definitely needs a little bit of an explanation, which is why we’re doing this podcast.
Adrian: Exactly
William: So, kind of a controversy around these terms, or a need for explanation we’ll call it more than a controversy, is the terms “patriot” and “loyalist” are kind of open to interpretation. You know are you a true patriotic Britain?
Adrian: Yeah, they’re kind of misleading.
William: Yeah! I mean are you loyal to the Congress? Are you loyal to the King? Who are you a patriot for?
Adrian: Right
William: Both sides are fighting for their government and their country. Whereas Whig and Tory define more of the political thoughts, not quite political parties yet, but the political groups that are in British Parliament, where one was more for parliamentary power and restrictions, and the other was for, I guess we can call it a more restricted government. The Whigs being a more restricted government. Tory being more big government.
Adrian: Yeah. Right.
William: So, those are some of the terms, and you’re going to see in different history books. If folks go and they read a couple of different authors, especially if the history books are written across different decades, you will see a variation. And if folks want to use patriot and loyalist, Whig and Tory, rebels and Tories.
Adrian: Rebels, yeah.
William: All different kinds of choices they are going to run into there.
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William: Well so, so far, we have covered an introduction into who we are, Adrian and myself. Just a little bit about Ninety Six National Historic Site and Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. We talked about where is the Southern Theater, why we are doing the Southern Theater rather than the Southern Campaign. And probably spent far too long discussing the ins and outs of loyalism and the social divide that you’re going to see here in the South. Adrian any closing thoughts before we wrap up episode one?
Adrian: No. Just if you want to check out our parks you can do that through the n-p-s.gov website and you can actually find us either at our individual websites. I’m at n-p-s.gov/n-i-s-i and Ranger Will is at n-p-s.gov/o-v-v-i. Or you can search through topics and find us under the American Revolution.
William: They sure can. And I also want to do a plug for our social media. If they want to be able get in contact with us we have our Facebook pages for our different sites, as well as our Instagram, Southern Campaign N-P-S, and our YouTube channel as well, Southern Campaign N-P-S Parks. But that’s going to conclude our inaugural episode of Southern War, the podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So, thank you for listening we hope you enjoyed and we’ll see y’all next time when we re-visit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.
Adrian: Bye!
[Outro sounds of drums, muskets, and men fighting]
