Exploring Visionary Photography with Chris Gampat of the Phoblographer

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Welcome to another episode of Something New Every Week.
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This week I'm back with my co-host, Jackie Tobin.
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Say hello, Jackie.
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Hello Jackie.
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And we are.
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I'm really stoked about this interview with Chris Gampit.
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Did I say your last name, right?
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Yeah, you did.
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It said so many different ways, but that's a way that I'm actually used to and I've adapted that pronunciation myself, all right.
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I'm here with Chris from the Foblogger.
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Did I say that right?
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Yes, you did.
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Oh, man, we should give him a hand.
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All right, we're off to a good start from the Foblogger.
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If you have never seen his website, he's been around for a long time and definitely a huge source of information for our industry for many, many, many, many years, so I'm really stoked to have him here today.
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Say hello, chris.
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Hey how you doing folks.
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So, chris, jackie, if you don't mind, I'm going to start with a couple of quick questions, so I usually like, if we don't know who Chris is, where he came from, I'm going to let Jackie talk about the Foblogger, for I just want to know about you as a person where are you from?
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And kind of like, where are you living now?
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And the personal Chris.
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Gotcha.
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Yeah, my name is Chris Gampit, native New Yorker, born and raised in Queens, spent 10 years in Brooklyn and back to another part of Queens, part of Queens that I actually wanted to live in in my early 20s.
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Now I'm in my late 30s.
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What else besides photography Actually?
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No, I should really focus on that.
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I'm legally blind, which gives us a very I hate the word interesting.
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I really do, because I use so much different, fascinating approach to the world of photography.
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So the way that I see the world is kind of like a painting.
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I don't remember what it's like to see things 100% clearly.
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Sometimes I look through a camera and I look at you know, the lens and I'm just like, oh, people can see this.
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And they're like, no, the camera can actually see better than my eyes can.
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So I'm like, oh, okay, that's the thing.
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Other than that, I mean, it also means that my other senses are really heightened.
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I'm really into, like, different types of music.
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I'm a big punk rock.
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I always was growing up here in New York, former whiskey tasting host.
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I love tea.
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I'm part of two tea clubs.
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Oh, interesting.
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Yeah, and I blend my own beard oils as well too.
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They helped me meditate.
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Wow All right, I can mess into things, so yeah, that's interesting.
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So you know I'm a fleshing kid as well, so I can hear it.
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The accent still sticks out, especially after a few more beers, for sure.
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But now grew up in Rockin County so moved when I was in second, third grade.
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But I knew you were a New Yorker but I didn't realize how much of a New Yorker You're, a true New Yorker, which there's not there's.
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I think this might be our first podcast where it's three New Yorkers all in one in one episode.
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So that's awesome.
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And you're in Brooklyn now you say no, I'm in Queens Island.
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So, I warms my heart to hear oh man, nice, nice.
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I do dream sometimes and it's always nice to talk to New Yorkers.
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My mom was just out here visiting and I live in St Louis now and I do miss New York quite a bit, so I need to get back more often and it would be great to see Jackie again.
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Anyway, this episode's about you People.
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Do another episode on mixing beard oils, because that definitely interests me as well.
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We could probably go down a very, very big rabbit hole on that.
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But, jackie, I'm going to let you take over here.
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Well, I have to add that I also grew up in Queens.
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I'm a Queens girl, queens Village.
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I love Queens.
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I just so.
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He's been so like dude in my heart.
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And you know I started a photo district news.
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I don't I know this isn't about me, but I'm bringing it up because I always read the blog or for a while I was there.
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I know you started it, you founded it in 2009,.
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Chris, you're you know, if we want to get formal for a minute, you wear many hats You're the founder, the publisher, the editor-in-chief.
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You started the website in 2009 and then I if I'm wrong, correct me, but you started that.
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You then came out with the app in 2021.
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Is that right?
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That's a good question I wonder if it's 21.
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We're in 2023 right now.
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Yeah, it was 2021.
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Wow.
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And just everything like you've been to and for this industry.
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Like it really inspires me in the fact that you just started this blog, because I feel like when you started, there really wasn't anything else like it.
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Like just let us know a little bit about like why you started it and like how it's evolved over the years and where you draw inspiration for it.
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Before you even get into that, I want you to know that that actually touches, uh, the heart of early twenties me, because I tried for years to work for PDN and pop photo and all those places and unfortunately, I just never made it, so I decided to make my own site.
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Um that.
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Pardon and publisher of PDN started it because he couldn't like get it classified anywhere for his like photography equipment.
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So he decided to start his own newspaper, because PDN started as a newspaper in like 1983, I think, and I was there.
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I started in 1986.
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I was going to say maybe I stole your job, but you're like so much younger than I am, so yeah, I mean, but that's how it was during like 2009.
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Um, when I graduated college because you know, uh, the economy back then was terrible Um, it was a major recession and I graduated into a period where, even with five internships or so underneath my belt, I couldn't secure a full time job.
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Um, to give you guys a little bit more of a background, I had an internship at PC Mag and Magnum photos at the same time.
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Wow.
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In college.
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Sure Magnum Wow.
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Yeah, um, and there was a point where, uh, when I graduated, I was doing some freelancing in the photo industry and I was also doing some freelancing for, uh, pc Mag.
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And then there was a point where I was like you know what, I'm 65.
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What am I going to do?
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And I didn't see myself playing video games at the age of 65.
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Now, at the age of 36, I totally would see myself playing the video games, but I also would see myself still in love with photography, um, but I chose the route for photography, um, obviously because I started for blogger for kept up with it Um, in the first couple of years it wasn't really going uh, as well as people would think it would.
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So I still had a day job, um, worked over at B and H photo and social media department.
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A lot of us that have left like to say we did our time, um, that's pretty much done and said universally.
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And I planned for a year to leave and saved up a lot of money.
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And then I started to do just do for blogger for full time, along with a little bit of freelancing for other publications, partially because of the fact that I still felt that I was so young and I didn't spend enough time in newsrooms that I wanted to learn from other people.
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So I freelance for like imaging resource Um.
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There were a couple other photo publications back then.
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But I also did some work in the men's lifestyle industry because I wanted for blogger to have more of like a lifestyle approach, uh, which was closer to my vision for it in the beginning.
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And we started a photographer and I say we, um, because I started it but then there were a couple other people that came and helped me in the beginning.
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Uh, there were two aspects to it.
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I wanted to do camera lens and lighting tests in a way that seemed practical.
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When you photograph a bride at a wedding, she doesn't care to look at her pores at 100%, um, and no one wants to look at their children At 100%.
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No one really wants to look at sports photos at 100% either, uh, but when I looked around at the industry back then, that's all that there were.
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There were just lab tests of like brick walls and stuff like that, and I was like I'm going to take these tests and I'm going to do them in real life and I'm going to put them in real life situations the idea of doing some sort of like lab test simulation of, like, a person of color dancing around or something like that and trying to see if the camera can track them, isn't really practical to what actually happens in real life at a real venue.
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So I was taking these cameras into real venues and real uh situations and trying them as uh, you know, it went about photographing real life and then the entire industry started to change because, uh, people realized, oh yeah, this is what folks wants.
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So, um, it's so weird for me to say that I was one of the pioneers for that, because I'm just like, oh wow, I did that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That's a good one.
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Um but yeah, and then, in addition to that too, I mean we really cared about the art world in different ways Um, you know PDN and American photo and all those publications also majorly did.
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But I feel you guys didn't really necessarily focus on more of the contemporary stuff.
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I felt you focused more on like the higher end stuff and I felt that it was always very important, especially back then, because that's when arts education in America really started to take like a downhill and like the budgets were getting cut.
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I felt like we needed to find a way to help people connect the technical side of their brain and the artistic side of the brain, because those two speak different languages and trying to have a translation between those two parts of the brain was really important.
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And that's been our vision and our mission the entire time that the blogger has been around.
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In addition to uplifting the voices of women, uplifting the voices of POCs, trying to pride a little bit of extra balance in the industry, also those of people who were disabled.
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We have interviewed a lot of former veterans Actually, I'm sorry, but that word makes no sense that, you know, tried to find ways to channel their PTSD into something creative, people who were victims of some sort of abuse and tried to channel it into ethereal, conceptual, surreal images.
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And then people like me that are legally blind.
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So we were trying to tell the stories of all those other folks and over the past couple of years it's really seemed to pay off.
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I love that and I love that when I was Googling around because I've been reading the faux blogger for a long time but when I was Googling around to get some catchy phrases, like it says you know we are.
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You know, like inclusivity and authenticity was never a trend for us.
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That's who we are and I love that because it is so authentic on the site.
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And, um, I feel like, you know, some people just struggle.
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If it's not really in them, it's not in them, but it's like that's who you are from the start and I love that.
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Like when I asked you to do this, you said well, are we going to just talk about tech reviews?
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And like that?
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I hate that.
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Yeah, but I just like, I love finding out like why somebody created a body of work like the, like the psychology behind it, which I know is like here to your heart as well.
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I love like I love seeing behind the scenes on shoots of what went into it.
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And you know, I was always like really drawn and inspired by people like Julie Blackman and Greg Crudson, but I don't know.
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And then I was looking on your site today and I might have I might be saying her name wrong Nana.
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What is her name now?
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Nana Woodman?
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Am I butchering her name?
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Cause it was about.
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Nana Woodman.
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A great question, because we do so many interviews that sometimes I just forget that we do them.
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So she's a magnum photographer and like she was talking about AI and the biggest threat, like it's one of the biggest threats of photojournalism today.
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And I wanted to ask you about that later.
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But you know, like what do you mean exactly when you want?
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Like you're delving into the psychology of creation.
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How do you show that on the photographer?
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How do you deal with that?
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We used to do it through a lot of questions.
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Our standard used to be like eight or so, and then I realized I really don't want to wear people out, cause you know it's a collaborative effort to do an interview.
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We, you guys, are doing it right now, right, so the way that we do it is we think about the who, what, when, why, how or why, which is, you know, the pillars of journalism, which, sadly, are going away these days, but I'm keeping that alive.
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So with that, we talked to people about how they got into photography and how they got into their genre specifically, and usually when we do that, they're able to give us some sort of like background into what helped make them who they are.
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But then we ask really pointed questions at like, uh, why they made certain choices in their creativity and where the inspiration came from for that.
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And then you hear them talk about influences, like you know, gregory Crudson or like any Liebowitz, or, uh, sebastian of Elgato or something else like that.
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Um, so then you start to see where all of those influences come from, because we we used to actually do like the full Q and A format in our interviews and I thought to myself, no, I don't really want to do that.
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I want to do more of like, you know, the kind of like New York timesy kind of like summaries of like what they do, and insert our own you know, insert our own uh thoughts and artistic critiques on the images.
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So when we talk to these photographers, we also then put our own thoughts into where we see these kinds of influences come from.
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Um, and a lot of them go ahead and they say well, you know, it's not really about the cure, it's uh all about the photographer.
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But the truth is that you know, it partially is also about the gear, because shooting sports with a pinhole camera is completely different than shooting with a Sony a one.
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You're going to do it in completely different ways.
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Um, so that also absolutely does influence creative vision.
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Um, I can't imagine someone rolling up to you know a next game with a giant wet plate camera and trying to photograph, uh, someone going up to the who, uh, because they'd need, like, so many different lights and all that kind of stuff and it would be incredibly difficult.
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Um, so that stuff does influence all of it.
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But what I've also been doing recently is really talking to photographers about how they are different from an AI and how their work, uh cannot be duplicated at all by an AI, and I think that that's a question that all photographers and journalists have really needed to ask ourselves.
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Um, you folks can also understand this.
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There were a bunch of years in the journalism world where publications would basically just sit there and rewrite press releases or they'd copy and paste press releases, and that mostly went away.
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Um, and what we've done at football, a photographer is we have given very pointed opinions on the news that are informed by our staff and that we actually put references to in previous articles.
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That we've done.
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But with arts, um, we've done similar because we've been interviewing photographers for the better part of 14 years.
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So, and that goes for, like, really big photographers you know a platon, um, amy Vitale, uh, all those, and then newer photographers as well too.
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So we find ways to reference all of those articles and all of those different kinds of, uh, different kinds of artists, uh, in our interviews and articles and we try to illustrate that and help people connect the artistic side and the technical side.
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There were interviews.
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I hope that answers your question.
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Yes, and I don't even remember what my question was.
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How was it?
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I have a I have a follow up question to interviewing photographers.
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Uh, so I may be putting you on the spot a little bit.
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Uh, who was one of your favorite interviews and who was the hardest to get?
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Like a year.
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Oh geez, let's, let's try, uh, let's do this year.
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Um or in the last few years go ahead, I'm sorry.
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Or in the last few years.
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Um, one of my favorite interviews for the past year.
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Um photographer Sydney Inman.
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Um, a couple of places that I look for for photographers um Tumblr, uh, flickr, um Reddit, vsco, um, I even pay for VSCO and Tumblr right now, the Hans and I'll go between those and a couple other places, photo vote, all those places, and I'll type in certain things.
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So when I went to Flickr, I typed in surreal and I looked up um, oh, I'm part of these groups, and then I looked up some of the photographers and I found Sydney.
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And then I went through the rest of our portfolio and then I started looking her up and I'm like, hmm, okay, let me try to see what I can do to interview this woman.
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And what I found out is a lot of her work does not involve Photoshop.
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A lot of it is a lot of major set building and trying to get it all right in camera, which, you know, that's a completely different kind of conceptualization, because some photographers will sit there and they'll shoot and they'll shoot and they'll shoot and they'll come up with all of it later on in post-production.
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It's something to be able to have the emotions ready and all of the feelings ready and put it all into camera and then, as soon as you're pretty much done, pressing the button, you're done with the photo.
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That's a completely different kind of set building and pre-production that I feel is majorly missing and not talked about these days.
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What's marketed better is the idea that you can sit there and just work for the rest of your life and post-production.
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But ever since the pandemic, honestly I got so sick of staring at screens and that is really great to me to be able to talk to photographers that can do that much work in pre-production and pretty much have it done in camera afterwards.
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The hardest interview, believe it or not.
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Usually it can be the magnum photographers which is nuts because I used to work at Magnum but every time it's like oh, we have a square print sale, cool, let's talk to a couple of photographers about the image that they're using and some of them are.
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I have no problem saying this.
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You know I'm native New York or whatever.
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I've been in this industry for 14 years.
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Some of them can be a little bit more aloof.
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Some of them can be really, really great and super nice.
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Todd Hito is.
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Oh the man's, the man's words like warms my heart and I let him know this.
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Um, but other photographers can be a little just like you know, I'm too good for interviews, which I get.
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You know, if I Am double my age at some day and I get to that point, maybe I might be that person, but Maybe I might also remember that.
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You know, at one point I was still younger and I should be working with all these people.
00:21:06.327 --> 00:21:11.307
And there are folks that possibly don't know who Bruce Gilden is, or Susan Mize Alice or anything else like that.
00:21:11.307 --> 00:21:18.964
They care more about youtubers or photographers they see on Instagram, so some of those folks can be harder to get.
00:21:20.856 --> 00:21:31.721
Other than that, you know, I usually am pretty good at getting a lot of folks and I instill those practices in my staff, one of my biggest.
00:21:31.721 --> 00:21:37.005
I'm not even gonna call a secret, but it's a practice on Monday, wednesday and Friday.
00:21:37.005 --> 00:21:37.767
I'm creative.
00:21:37.767 --> 00:21:38.788
I'm writing articles.
00:21:38.788 --> 00:21:52.203
I'm usually working on the pieces that you see Published on the site at 12 am and 6 am, and then I work on e-commerce articles and sometimes the the pieces that come later on the day, and on Tuesday and Thursday.
00:21:52.203 --> 00:21:53.547
We're doing this.
00:21:53.547 --> 00:22:01.381
On a Tuesday I Usually do meetings, emails phone calls, all that kind of stuff.
00:22:02.715 --> 00:22:21.034
So, with that said, when I send the emails to people about interviews, I'll send it to them on a Tuesday and then I'll relentlessly follow up on Thursday and Tuesday for two or three weeks and then, after a while, I Used to sit there and pour my heart into people and be like hey, just following up, hey, just following up.
00:22:21.034 --> 00:22:31.862
And now I gave up, partially because of the fact that I'm just like you can only pour so much love into something and if it doesn't give it back to you, there's just no point in going after it.
00:22:31.862 --> 00:22:41.944
And Sometimes those photographers come back to me after like six months and they're like oh my god, I'm so sorry, I was super busy, can I get this to you?
00:22:41.944 --> 00:22:46.462
And then I'm like get to me by Thursday, I'll work on the article Monday.
00:22:46.462 --> 00:22:52.006
Were you usually scheduled ahead eight weeks so it might be published within eight weeks?
00:22:52.006 --> 00:22:53.974
Sooner you got it to me, the sooner it can be done.
00:22:53.974 --> 00:22:56.500
And sometimes they get it to me and sometimes they don't.
00:22:56.500 --> 00:23:00.169
And after a while I just give up and I realize.
00:23:01.596 --> 00:23:19.643
There are things in your life there are not Really worth pouring your heart into and partially my staff taught me that because sometimes they would interview folks or they try to get an interview, and they'd be on them for months and I Realize of they could just be spending their time doing other pieces instead.
00:23:19.643 --> 00:23:27.326
So it really just is about Getting that symbiotic relationship, so to speak.
00:23:27.326 --> 00:23:29.174
I hope that makes sense.
00:23:29.174 --> 00:23:30.862
Yeah, that totally me.
00:23:30.903 --> 00:23:33.173
I mean, there's a couple things that I like to unpack from that.
00:23:33.212 --> 00:23:33.615
Number one.
00:23:33.615 --> 00:24:13.458
I think Jackie and I can definitely relate to Trying to meet deadlines and or trying to get someone's interview and I and I think that Interview or get some work from them in my case it was getting conference stuff or maybe there was an interview or something like that but I definitely learned early that, even from some of my own friends, that I'd be like gosh, I'm trying to feature you and I I'm not necessarily want to help you but, like you know, I Want you to be part of my world, right, and why are you not responding to me Right away?
00:24:13.458 --> 00:24:37.730
And sometimes that can be hard To to take, and it took a little bit of maturity which is what I hear when I, when I hear you say that there's a there's some maturity to that to understand that, and then what I've learned too is that it's just life, right, there's other stuff going on, and Some people's lives are scattered and crazy and some people are very organized and we love them all just the same.
00:24:40.315 --> 00:24:40.816
Fascinating.
00:24:40.816 --> 00:24:41.518
You're saying that.
00:24:41.518 --> 00:24:51.686
Jason started to interrupt you because I agree with you in so many ways, but the way I look at it as well, too, is I do try to help those photographers in some ways.
00:24:51.686 --> 00:25:13.528
One of the one of my favorite stories photographer in pedigree Did a project where he was trying to raise money for people with cystic fibrosis, and the interview that we did he was able to show to A couple of major news networks and that got him on those news networks and it secured him the funding for the projects that he wanted to do.
00:25:14.816 --> 00:25:18.266
There are a couple other photographers that we've had great stories like that as well, too.
00:25:18.266 --> 00:25:21.954
So when people are like, oh well, what are you doing for me?
00:25:21.954 --> 00:25:29.047
Interviews do work with publications because we have a Google ranking that other people do not have.
00:25:29.047 --> 00:25:30.710
Not everything is social media.
00:25:30.710 --> 00:25:50.671
People can look on social media or they can look on YouTube, but when it comes to authenticity and actually getting serious about booking a photographer or Checking out a piece of gear, people are going to do their research, and when they really want to do that research, they dive deep into all the different corners of the internet.
00:25:51.994 --> 00:25:54.441
Yeah, I totally agree and and and.
00:25:54.441 --> 00:26:08.534
Now getting back to, I find it very interesting the way you've segmented your work structure as Someone who runs their own businesses everyone out there that's listening to this did you hear the part about how Chris segments his life into different parts?
00:26:08.534 --> 00:26:11.864
And he it sounds like you are very structured to that.
00:26:11.864 --> 00:26:17.539
And now you're working and I think I think for me personally, when I ran my own studio, I was a mess.
00:26:17.539 --> 00:26:18.984
I was all over the place when it's just me.
00:26:18.984 --> 00:26:26.535
But then when I was either paying somebody or working with a partner, all of a sudden you're like I can't work this way anymore.
00:26:26.535 --> 00:26:30.355
I can't just be that infant, like just doing whatever I want.
00:26:30.355 --> 00:26:35.739
I need to segment my life to make sure that other people are getting their jobs done as well I.
00:26:35.739 --> 00:26:42.765
So my question to you is did that segmenting happen on your own, for yourself, or did it happen because you started working with the staff?
00:26:44.696 --> 00:26:46.039
Um combination of both.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:27:09.204
Hmm was a point where, when I I Think it was maybe one or two years into just running for blogger for a full time, where I was thinking to myself you know, maybe in the mornings I might channel my creativity and then the afternoons I'll just get back to emails and then I realized those are two completely different sides of your brain.
00:27:09.204 --> 00:27:13.723
Writing and shooting is one side and it's creative.
00:27:13.723 --> 00:27:34.098
Another side is Kind of being more extroverted and needing to interact with other people and needing to who an advertiser in some way, needing to talk to a photographer, um, securing review units for your staff, trying to maintain those relationships.
00:27:34.098 --> 00:27:49.675
And I realize that there are certain days that I can channel what I want to consider the external, the external stuff which is like even in some ways dealing with my staff, um.
00:27:49.675 --> 00:27:57.040
And then there are days that I want to channel the internal stuff, which is all the articles that I can produce, um.
00:27:58.176 --> 00:28:01.410
And I realized that earlier on and I stuck with it.
00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:09.800
And the past couple of years I have sat there and thought, hmm, you know this works, but sometimes it gets a little boring.
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:11.826
What could I do to mix it up?
00:28:11.826 --> 00:28:24.835
And I tried mixing it up and then I realized I'm like no, you know, last week I was actually at the UN hanging out with a bunch of folks from Sony.
00:28:24.835 --> 00:28:29.503
Um, I'm trying to remember what it's called the IPC.
00:28:29.765 --> 00:28:32.181
Yes, we've all been there.
00:28:32.181 --> 00:28:33.528
Yeah, yeah, jackie, you went.
00:28:33.528 --> 00:28:34.974
You went to one lunch there, right I?
00:28:35.336 --> 00:28:37.682
was supposed to go, but then I didn't get the invite this year.
00:28:38.262 --> 00:28:39.866
Okay, I only went once, so.
00:28:40.755 --> 00:28:43.137
Yeah so you know what you're talking about.
00:28:43.137 --> 00:28:50.393
Yeah, and I did it on a Wednesday and Wednesday I'm usually supposed to be creative, and then I thought to myself I'm like, oh yeah, I'm gonna write when I come home.
00:28:50.393 --> 00:28:52.219
Nope, no writing got done.
00:28:52.219 --> 00:28:55.768
I sat there and I ate burgers and I enjoyed the rest of my day Nice.
00:28:55.768 --> 00:29:09.182
So it threw off that entire creative process Because I had to sit there and, just you know, channel that energy with other people, and I think it's about being really real with yourself.
00:29:09.223 --> 00:29:28.061
Sometimes you need to be kind of more I hate to use the word introverted, but it's really the best way and Channel yourself, and at other times you need to channel for other people, and Just the way that the world works Doesn't allow itself to be that way.
00:29:28.061 --> 00:29:33.282
But I have learned For a long time to put up those borders.
00:29:33.282 --> 00:29:36.200
I Will have even right now.
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:51.934
Right, we're switch, we're thinking about switching away from Mailchimp to another company to handle our emails, our daily email newsletter, and there's a company that's like on top of me, relentless, every day, and I'm like I will get back to you on this contract.
00:29:51.934 --> 00:30:06.106
I am reviewing it a little bit more and I want to make sure that we have a seamless transition that is sustainable for us who and Other folks don't necessarily care about stability, they just look at you as a dollar sign.
00:30:07.416 --> 00:30:25.414
So needing to be very, very upfront about your borders and your boundaries is a big part of it, and eventually you train other people to do that and then they realize, oh Actually, this guy can get a lot more done than anyone else.
00:30:25.414 --> 00:30:31.474
And I really realized that when I used to be the vice chairman of APA here in New York.
00:30:31.474 --> 00:30:48.154
I was vice chairman of American photographic artists New York and on Tuesdays and Thursdays I would involve the work that I would do for APA and I realized I'm like, oh, wow, with just a couple hours and a week I can get so much done.
00:30:48.154 --> 00:30:50.239
It's nuts, um, I'm.
00:30:52.045 --> 00:30:53.170
Do you ever sleep?
00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:57.140
It sounds like you do so many things Like how many hours of sleep do you have?
00:30:57.340 --> 00:30:58.064
He's young.
00:30:58.064 --> 00:31:01.526
I try to.
00:31:01.625 --> 00:31:03.932
I really try to get eight hours if I can.
00:31:03.932 --> 00:31:10.511
Sometimes it ends up being seven, but yeah, I try to push through.
00:31:10.511 --> 00:31:17.940
There are times where I just sit there and I try to veg out and I read or I play video games or I go for long photo walks or something like that.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:24.781
But yeah, I really do try, jackie, I have one more question that I'm going to let you take things Okay.
00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:28.029
Then I'm going to let you take over and then we probably need to wrap things up.
00:31:28.029 --> 00:31:37.830
But so you said something before also that I wanted to unpack a little bit about making the jump from working freelance and doing a bunch of different jobs.
00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:42.181
I think it's created people, we have all been there at some point, right?
00:31:42.181 --> 00:31:51.787
I love to hear the story of, like, what that decision was I'm going to not work for anybody anymore, I'm going to make the jump and I'm going to do it.
00:31:51.787 --> 00:31:56.788
It's a scariest part of thinking anybody's career and then usually we kind of go back and forth over the years.
00:31:56.788 --> 00:32:00.928
But I'd like to hear your story on that, if there is anything interesting there.
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:08.426
Yeah, that is incredibly scary when I did that V&H photo.
00:32:08.426 --> 00:32:18.871
All in all, they are a wonderful employer Because you get some of the best healthcare in the industry.
00:32:18.871 --> 00:32:24.390
You get paid just enough to make you not want to quit.
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.867
You get a ton of great benefits and when you say the name V&H, everyone else just fawns over you.
00:32:30.867 --> 00:32:39.012
But anytime I would go around, people were like no, chris, tell them who you really are.
00:32:39.012 --> 00:32:41.003
And it's kind of like that.
00:32:41.003 --> 00:32:45.390
I hate to say this, but I'm a man of my age at 36.
00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:49.229
That Batman situation where it's like, oh, you're other Bruce Wayne or you're Batman.
00:32:50.182 --> 00:32:51.490
I totally relate to that.
00:32:51.490 --> 00:32:53.144
I completely relate to that.
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:58.702
Yeah, and there was a point where I'm Alfred.
00:32:58.702 --> 00:33:18.304
Sorry I didn't so toxic for me as a young 20-year-old man, where I was split between so many different departments and I was so appreciated and I was passed over for promotions that I should have really gotten that.
00:33:18.304 --> 00:33:26.771
I planned for a year and I did that by trying to supplement the things that I knew I couldn't do.
00:33:26.771 --> 00:33:37.064
One of the big things that really made me quit V&H was the fact that a photographer could actually find a way to bring in good banner advertising.
00:33:37.104 --> 00:33:40.067
back then I had to find an external agency.
00:33:40.067 --> 00:33:41.983
I'm sorry if you can hear this.
00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:43.481
That's New York.
00:33:43.481 --> 00:33:44.265
I love it.
00:33:44.265 --> 00:33:46.368
I had to shut my window.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.676
Would, you like me to do that?
00:33:48.676 --> 00:33:52.731
No, no, I don't like the sounds Okay, cool.
00:33:52.731 --> 00:33:59.913
The thing is that I had to find a way to kind of get the things covered that I couldn't necessarily work on.
00:33:59.913 --> 00:34:06.940
So when I started to do it full-time just by myself, I really wanted to have me covering the editorial part.
00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:20.090
I wanted to have all advertorial and advertising handled by an external agency for ethical reasons, and it was like that for many, many years.
00:34:21.922 --> 00:34:28.878
And then after a while I started to kind of trust myself enough to think, oh okay, you know what I can do both of these.
00:34:28.878 --> 00:34:41.940
But also with the last agency that we worked with, I ended up having to jump into every single call all the time and, quite honestly, a lot of those agencies might sometimes take 40% of a purchase.
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:51.860
So if you're getting like a $60,000 buy-in and they're taking 40%, that's quite a large percentage.
00:34:51.860 --> 00:35:01.940
If it's a $10,000 buying, you know you're losing $4,000 right off the bat and you have to do the work and all that kind of stuff, and I'm also hopping into calls.
00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:06.590
So after a while I just thought to myself I'll just do both, I'll do it myself.
00:35:08.864 --> 00:35:11.940
And I got more brave with that as time went on.
00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:16.920
People sit there and they look at me and they're like oh, it's so great that you can do all that stuff by yourself.
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:22.990
But to be quite honest with you, I'm terrified most of the time.
00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:35.514
But then there's a part of me that always reminds me of self that you fail if you don't try.
00:35:35.514 --> 00:35:53.644
But also, being legally blind helps me because of the fact that I need to navigate the world in a completely different way and I'm like well, I'm going to this blind and I'm like, yeah, but that's more of like an actual little thing, I'm going blind, I'm well.
00:35:54.807 --> 00:35:55.248
Literally.
00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:59.246
Yeah, so you know I fail at things.
00:35:59.246 --> 00:36:05.005
I totally fail at things all the time, but I recover and I move on.
00:36:05.005 --> 00:36:08.050
And a bunch of businesses do that as well too.
00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:12.706
So it's to answer your question, jason.
00:36:12.706 --> 00:36:17.092
It's more about just sitting there and having unyielding faith in yourself.
00:36:17.492 --> 00:36:17.833
Right on.
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:31.476
And having yourself and channeling your anxiety and knowing how to sit there and say to yourself I need help at the right times, and trying to talk to those people.
00:36:31.476 --> 00:36:39.940
And luckily I've been fortunate enough where I've been blessed, to be able to talk to those folks whenever I need certain things done.
00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:49.414
There are a lot of things that I do try to do to myself for myself, um, but for the most part I do try to reach out to folks whenever I really need help.
00:36:50.137 --> 00:36:51.240
Right, that's it.
00:36:51.240 --> 00:36:51.621
I love that.
00:36:53.217 --> 00:36:55.762
Yeah, and I think, especially for photographers today.
00:36:55.762 --> 00:36:58.387
I mean, the industry has just changed so much.
00:36:58.387 --> 00:36:59.717
I've seen it all so much.
00:36:59.717 --> 00:37:10.141
I mean, you know, I wanted to ask you a little bit about like where you think it's such a cliched question what's the state of photography right now?
00:37:10.141 --> 00:37:15.349
What is in your eyes, what do you see going on, or where is it going to?
00:37:17.115 --> 00:37:25.829
I'm going to quote a buddy of mine His name is Trevor, he is the CEO of Gora Gear on this, because we talked about this for a while, the found while ago.
00:37:25.829 --> 00:37:38.628
We're going through a major paradigm shift right now, and it's as big as the transition from film to digital and digital to the phone.
00:37:38.628 --> 00:37:53.751
And it's about needing to be very intentional with the photographs that you create, because the cameras these days are just so good that they can do all the work for you.
00:37:53.751 --> 00:37:55.838
So what are you doing?
00:37:55.838 --> 00:38:02.619
That makes you more than just a button pusher, and it's the same thing with software.
00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:05.666
Right, you push the button and all these things are done.
00:38:05.666 --> 00:38:09.059
So what is making you differentiate yourself?
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:19.394
And that is a major problem that we're facing right now because of the fact that also, arts education funding is being cut in schools all the time.
00:38:19.394 --> 00:38:23.523
So people don't necessarily understand these things.
00:38:23.523 --> 00:38:28.394
They don't understand the idea that photography can actually be art anymore.
00:38:28.394 --> 00:38:32.981
They think about it, and I think it's part of our vernacular as well, too.
00:38:32.981 --> 00:38:52.434
Instead of photograph, we say the word pick, we say the word snap, we say the word photo or something like that, and I think that we need to get back to treating photography with respect in our vernacular and that's a holistic thing that we have to do in our mindset.
00:38:52.434 --> 00:39:04.188
And if we do that, then I think that to be basically the cream or rise of the crop.
00:39:04.288 --> 00:39:07.010
I hate saying it that way, but it's really true.
00:39:07.010 --> 00:39:16.548
We will change, we will adapt and we need to become more intentional with how we create photos.
00:39:16.548 --> 00:39:42.068
We need to be more in touch with our feelings and our intentions and those need to be permeating through our work, and we need to teach people and help them understand how we are connecting the artistic side of our brain and the technical side of our brain, because then, and only then, will they be able to understand why they are looking at what they are looking at in a gallery or in a museum.
00:39:42.068 --> 00:39:45.762
Took a friend of mine the other month.
00:39:45.762 --> 00:39:50.353
He's a huge tech doctor, says that he's a photographer.
00:39:50.353 --> 00:39:51.434
I'm like, no, you're a content creator.
00:39:51.434 --> 00:39:54.284
And he's like, yeah, no, you're right.
00:39:54.284 --> 00:39:57.434
Took him to Photographer Fisco, which is a great museum here in New York.
00:39:58.297 --> 00:40:00.822
And he was like oh man, I could do one of these photos.
00:40:00.882 --> 00:40:21.443
I'm like, yeah, you're right, but there's a whole bunch of other things beyond it and you know he's right, but also I'm right in that way, and we need to help people understand all the other things that go into the creation of photography as an art, and I think that's where the industry is going to be.
00:40:21.443 --> 00:40:34.449
It's going to be more about these conversations Really has to be, and it's also important to remind people that photos are not just what you see on social media and not what you see on the web.
00:40:34.449 --> 00:40:37.878
Printing is still a really big thing.
00:40:37.878 --> 00:40:50.190
The magic that you see on someone's eyes when they look at an image of theirs printed for the first time is something that you can't necessarily get unless you see it in person.
00:40:50.190 --> 00:41:16.333
And now that you know the pandemic isn't behind us right, like, we still have scars from that, but we need to find a way to get people into safe spaces to see photos in person again and have dialogues again that are back and forth and in person and candid and those kinds of things.
00:41:18.016 --> 00:41:38.331
That's where I think photography is going to be going, and it's happening in some ways, which I love, but it needs to happen in other ways that I feel are more inclusive, and by that I mean appeal more to younger people, appeal more to POCs, appeal more to women, all that kind of stuff.
00:41:38.331 --> 00:41:43.902
I remember when I was younger going around to all those photo made ups.
00:41:43.902 --> 00:41:50.050
I'd be the youngest person there and it's crazy too, because I'm also one of the youngest publishers still around.
00:41:50.050 --> 00:41:52.637
Yeah, that's.
00:41:52.637 --> 00:41:54.402
I hope that's answering your question.
00:41:55.202 --> 00:42:03.242
I've got so many thoughts on that Super interesting and I wanted to ask you actually sort of a segue into what I want to ask you before.
00:42:03.242 --> 00:42:10.434
You know, do you feel like it's important for photographers today to even know about the history of photography?
00:42:10.434 --> 00:42:22.588
Like when I say that, I like I remember when I was 23, I was interviewing people like Gordon Parks and Arnold Newman and Mary Ellen Mark and they were my heroes and people that I tell these stories to.
00:42:22.588 --> 00:42:24.429
Today they don't even know who those people are.
00:42:24.429 --> 00:42:36.661
You know, like photographers today, and I think the history is important, or just knowing that, like where it came from and where it's going to and it seems like you were saying that a little bit Do you think it even matters?
00:42:37.434 --> 00:42:43.447
Yes, I absolutely do, because those people photographed with a lot of intent that you do not see today.
00:42:43.447 --> 00:42:48.063
Gordon Parks tried to tell very important stories.
00:42:48.063 --> 00:42:59.206
A lot of the magnum photographers that started tried to tell stories about war that algorithms don't necessarily show us.
00:42:59.206 --> 00:43:15.628
Those people photograph and try to let people know about very important things that we just don't necessarily want to know about because there's so much negativity in the world.
00:43:15.628 --> 00:43:17.811
But that is really important stuff.
00:43:18.894 --> 00:43:21.998
The photojournalists that are dying right now in Gaza and Israel.
00:43:22.998 --> 00:43:51.434
They're risking their lives to tell these stories and knowing about the history of photography and how these people had intent is much more important than the intent that you just come up with later on in post-production, and that permeates not only through photojournalism but it permeates through wedding photography, permeates in conservation photography efforts.
00:43:51.434 --> 00:44:00.414
The work that Amy Vitaly does, what she did with photographing rhinos and them being endangered that's very important.
00:44:00.414 --> 00:44:03.864
There might be a day where they're completely gone.
00:44:03.864 --> 00:44:11.686
Maybe one day I might have kids and I might go to the Bronx Zoo and there are no rhinos anymore.
00:44:11.686 --> 00:44:13.548
Same thing with elephants.
00:44:13.548 --> 00:44:51.628
Lots of major stories like that are very important and those start with the history of photography and trying to let people know that those folks worked to let the people know that they were trying to change the world and that we can change the world in our own ways by looking at them, for inspiration is incredibly important, and I think that we, as photographers I don't want to say that we're responsible for this, but we do have a major part in guiding the future of photography.
00:44:57.318 --> 00:45:03.228
I could go on and on about it In some ways it gets depressing and in some ways it gets invigorating.
00:45:03.228 --> 00:45:11.365
But there's a lot of work that we have to do as publishers, as photographers, as teachers, as peers.
00:45:15.577 --> 00:45:21.423
I have to thank you as one of the people who's putting some of those people in the forefront with Foblogafer.
00:45:21.423 --> 00:45:28.800
I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:31.786
It's been difficult for our industry.
00:45:31.786 --> 00:45:35.619
There's no more PDN right, there's Rangefinder.
00:45:36.402 --> 00:45:37.485
We don't like them anymore.
00:45:40.655 --> 00:45:59.097
We don't like them anymore anyway, but as two big magazines that were a powerhouse of the industry is no longer, and those two publications and that's just two that I'm thinking off the top of my head, what?
00:45:59.117 --> 00:46:00.380
was that closed recently?
00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:01.965
Was it outdoor photography?
00:46:02.574 --> 00:46:04.695
Outdoor photography yeah Dan.
00:46:04.715 --> 00:46:09.365
Havelin was the editor of that magazine there's been so many closures.
00:46:09.365 --> 00:46:22.164
Do you think that's partly due to this rise of these YouTubers and TikTokers taking over and becoming influencers, because it's not even really about the photography anymore.
00:46:22.164 --> 00:46:25.414
I don't know what your thoughts are on that.
00:46:25.414 --> 00:46:31.947
Or is it just PDN closed because there was no advertising anymore for it?
00:46:31.947 --> 00:46:35.335
The print magazine Rangefinder went from print to digital.
00:46:35.335 --> 00:46:39.882
Why is the photo industry in the disarray?
00:46:39.882 --> 00:46:42.286
We can't even say we're photographers.
00:46:42.286 --> 00:46:44.188
We have to say content creators.
00:46:44.188 --> 00:46:44.449
Now.
00:46:47.842 --> 00:46:48.304
Sorry, go ahead.
00:46:48.896 --> 00:46:51.304
No, right, I don't know where my question was in that.
00:46:52.476 --> 00:47:02.309
I think that those conversations can actually be steered in a different way, by permeating holistically who you are.
00:47:02.309 --> 00:47:35.188
I do think that what you're saying about YouTubers and content creators does have some truth to it, but when it comes to reminding folks about authenticity, marketing and Google search results and all that kind of stuff, that is also incredibly important Social media is just seen as another platform and YouTubers and content creators can be controlled by brands.
00:47:35.188 --> 00:47:39.405
The press cannot be, and I think that that's very important.
00:47:39.405 --> 00:47:58.777
The big reason why I think the magazines fell apart is because if you look at their magazine versus a couple of European magazines or Asian magazines in the photo industry, they're completely different.
00:47:58.777 --> 00:48:13.434
American photo magazines after a while started to feel very cheap and very pulpish, whereas if you compare it to I have aperture right behind me, right Aperture magazine the paper feels completely different.
00:48:13.434 --> 00:48:24.351
It feels like a product that you want to curl up with on a plane ride or on a Sunday morning or something like that.
00:48:24.351 --> 00:48:30.434
And that's not saying that the people that put the magazines together were doing a bad job.
00:48:30.434 --> 00:48:32.402
I think they were doing a terrific job.
00:48:33.456 --> 00:48:43.983
I think that the quality of the magazine and the product that you held cheapened after a while in the name and pursuit of profits.
00:48:43.983 --> 00:48:51.318
So I think the publisher's got a little too greedy and I think that in the end the greed kills everything right.
00:48:51.318 --> 00:48:57.237
It lost its authenticity as a product that you really wanted to curl up with and hold.
00:48:57.237 --> 00:49:02.235
So Photo magazines there are a couple that are still around.
00:49:02.235 --> 00:49:07.780
Whalebone magazine, which I also have over there, feels like something completely different.
00:49:07.780 --> 00:49:37.021
If you go into like Barnes and Noble, or you go to like a Japanese bookstore or something like that, you'll feel exactly what I'm talking about the quality of the paper, the way that the light from you know I'm facing an eastern facing window, but I also have Western and Southern windows in my apartment the way that the light reflects off the pages so that you don't have to move it around In order to read and look at the images.
00:49:37.021 --> 00:49:43.539
In a way, all of those things are very important details that were missing from magazines after a while.
00:49:43.539 --> 00:50:21.054
So those products, if you look at it in, like the Lifes on or anything else like that, some of those are thriving, but the bigger ones they just didn't because of the pursuit of profit, and I think that Publications do have to find a way to adapt and I also do remind them that in terms of like, let's say, affiliate sales and showing the fact that, like we can sell X number of Sony a7r5s or something like that, we have those tangible numbers and we can show those kinds of things and we can show that tracking and all that kind of stuff.
00:50:21.644 --> 00:50:25.438
Youtubers and other social media stars they can't necessarily do that.
00:50:25.438 --> 00:50:27.625
A lot of it smoke and mirrors.
00:50:27.625 --> 00:50:35.875
So with us there's a lot of authenticity and you know, you do see, like oh, they got this many views, but how many of those views are from bots, right?
00:50:35.875 --> 00:50:43.369
Whereas with us, you know, it's like oh, no, like as a Whole per day.
00:50:43.369 --> 00:50:49.849
We might have those reviews with all the content that we do I hate saying the word content, I really do with all the articles that we do.
00:50:49.889 --> 00:50:53.969
Let's treat what we do with actual more respect, right, it's not just content.
00:50:53.969 --> 00:50:57.021
We are creating photographs, we're not creating pics.
00:50:57.021 --> 00:50:58.304
We are creating articles.
00:50:58.304 --> 00:51:03.938
We're not creating some sort of video or something like that that you might want to look at.
00:51:03.938 --> 00:51:17.686
Even my friends in the video industry and the movie industry are just like no, we are not content creators, we are videographers, we are cinematographers, all that kind of stuff and it.
00:51:18.088 --> 00:51:24.175
It comes with teaching, marketing people that we're more than just a number to them.
00:51:24.175 --> 00:51:34.574
We are people that are actual great relationship makers, that can be symbiotic with you for a really long period of time.
00:51:34.574 --> 00:51:41.731
But we do something very well and I Think it's about putting that first and foremost.
00:51:41.731 --> 00:51:49.905
Whenever I go to a bunch of Events like Sony condo or something like that, I let people know I'm like no, we don't do video.
00:51:49.905 --> 00:51:52.784
We tried to do that didn't work out for us.
00:51:52.784 --> 00:51:59.170
We do articles really well and we do the things that you really want to deep dive into very, very well.
00:51:59.952 --> 00:52:10.987
Um, ingesting a video and looking at that medium is some a completely different way of Receiving media.
00:52:10.987 --> 00:52:14.275
Right, when you watch TV, you're just kind of receiving something.
00:52:14.275 --> 00:52:29.489
When you read an article, you are actively taking part in wanting to look through it, and that requires a higher level of brain activity Then just kind of mindlessly going through YouTube.
00:52:29.489 --> 00:52:44.471
So I try to remind folks that you know the people that actually do have a higher Not higher brain activity, but who actually are more active in Wanting to pursue certain things.
00:52:44.471 --> 00:52:46.536
They come to us first and foremost.
00:52:46.536 --> 00:52:54.070
They really care about connecting the Technical side and the artistic side, all that kind of stuff.
00:52:54.070 --> 00:53:07.744
So I think that as a Publisher and as a journalist and editor in chief, you really have to Remind yourself of who you are and you have to define those roles and have to let people know all those different things about you.
00:53:07.744 --> 00:53:09.873
I hope that answers your question.
00:53:12.407 --> 00:53:18.690
It does, it does gosh, yeah, did you have feelings on this as you?
00:53:23.706 --> 00:53:25.112
Yeah, I really feel like we.
00:53:25.112 --> 00:53:32.829
I've really enjoyed getting to know you today more when I was sober and what's up.
00:53:32.929 --> 00:53:35.945
So I said I'm sorry, I actually need to de-reference that now.
00:53:35.945 --> 00:53:56.394
So the last time Chris and I met we were talking before the episode we met at a Peter Hurley party I think it was a black-and-white party after a photo plus and, and it's been just about ten years and I was saying to him like I was not very sober that night and so it's it's nice to talk to you in a much more sober way.
00:53:56.394 --> 00:53:57.257
It was a great party.
00:53:57.257 --> 00:54:09.577
But, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on and I definitely I think Jackie and I might have some other Specific topics that I'd love to drill down with you in the future.
00:54:09.577 --> 00:54:11.804
Jackie, do you have anything to follow up on that?
00:54:11.804 --> 00:54:11.844
I?
00:54:13.048 --> 00:54:13.952
Was just curious.
00:54:13.952 --> 00:54:19.119
You know, like what, what are you working on next for the photographer?
00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:20.425
or you're evolving into that, you know.
00:54:20.545 --> 00:54:21.507
You went from the site.
00:54:21.507 --> 00:54:22.771
You have the app like what?
00:54:22.771 --> 00:54:24.235
I know how important.
00:54:24.235 --> 00:54:27.635
Like Journalism, you love cutting edge journalism.
00:54:27.635 --> 00:54:30.496
I don't know if you can talk about this in five minutes, but like what?
00:54:30.496 --> 00:54:31.556
What are you working on now?
00:54:31.556 --> 00:54:32.318
What's next?
00:54:32.739 --> 00:54:33.541
a couple of things.
00:54:33.541 --> 00:54:38.804
One I do want to get for blogger years ago we did a print zine.
00:54:38.804 --> 00:54:43.597
I do want to get back into trying to do that on a more regular basis.
00:54:43.597 --> 00:54:47.514
Finding the funding for that is always a problem as a publisher.
00:54:47.514 --> 00:54:52.737
I also do want us to do a couple more investigative journalism pieces.
00:54:53.186 --> 00:55:00.784
There are a lot of stories that I've been sitting on for a while that no one else is telling because they're trying to maintain relationships.
00:55:00.784 --> 00:55:05.219
But the core of journalism is you can't necessarily care about those relationships.
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:06.804
In some ways, you need to tell the story.
00:55:06.804 --> 00:55:12.704
Sure, those relationships are a big part of telling the story, but you need to let people know about certain things.
00:55:12.704 --> 00:55:18.597
There's a lead that I've been following for years that there's a camera manufacturer that uses child labor, for example.
00:55:18.597 --> 00:55:22.931
There's a lot of major problems in the film industry right now.
00:55:22.931 --> 00:55:26.298
When I say that, I mean like 35 millimeter film and 120 film.
00:55:26.298 --> 00:55:34.005
There's a lot of things that folks don't know about, how the Japanese manufacturers all share with one another.
00:55:34.005 --> 00:55:37.496
Um, those kinds of stories are the ones that I really want to tell.
00:55:37.496 --> 00:55:43.056
Finding the funding to fund journalism like that can always be very difficult.
00:55:43.076 --> 00:55:43.115
No.
00:55:44.585 --> 00:55:44.726
Hmm.
00:55:46.467 --> 00:55:48.572
Those are the stories I want to read, for sure.
00:55:48.572 --> 00:55:54.416
Yeah, for sure, All right uh that's ending on a very heavy note.
00:55:57.666 --> 00:55:59.898
Yeah, so I think we're gonna.
00:55:59.898 --> 00:56:00.945
We're gonna wrap it up there.
00:56:00.945 --> 00:56:05.777
Um, chris, thank you for being being on here and it's, it's great.
00:56:05.777 --> 00:56:13.005
Many of many of these podcasts are kind of touch the surface and I'm glad to get a little more in depth with you.
00:56:13.005 --> 00:56:20.014
So for those of you who aren't familiar with the full blogger, for calm I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
00:56:20.014 --> 00:56:22.329
Chris, thank you for being here again.
00:56:22.329 --> 00:56:28.032
Jackie, thank you for setting this interview up and and for Helping being.
00:56:28.032 --> 00:56:31.327
I love having you as a co-host now, so that's great.
00:56:31.327 --> 00:56:33.170
Um and uh.
00:56:33.170 --> 00:56:36.798
And thank you for being on this week's episode of something new every week.
00:56:36.798 --> 00:56:40.219
For those of you that are listening and you like to.
00:56:40.219 --> 00:56:41.525
You have something you want to talk about?
00:56:41.525 --> 00:56:44.853
I'd love to talk to you about it and I'm not hard to find.
00:56:44.853 --> 00:56:45.876
Just reach out to me.
00:56:45.876 --> 00:56:49.644
And Again, thank you guys for being on this week's episode of something new every week.
00:56:50.686 --> 00:56:51.387
Thank you, chris.
00:56:51.887 --> 00:56:54.070
Thank you Me for me that I'm here, mm-hmm.