E 769 — Talent Without Recycling: The European Scale-Up Question, Part 4

WEBVTT
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The standard story about why Europe does not produce enough giant technology companies,
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is that Europe lacks talent or Europe lacks appetite or Europe lacks simply
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ambition. The story is wrong.
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Europe has three and a half million tech workers. Europe has hundreds of unicorns
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that have already produced thousands of second generation founders.
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With your blacks is something more specific and more fixable.
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This is part 4 of the European scale-up question.
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This is about the difference between having talent and having recycled talent.
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Hello and welcome everybody. This is episode 769 of StartupRate.io,
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recorded solo by me, Joe Manager from Frankfurter Main, Germany.
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This is part four of the European Scale-Up Question, StartupRate.io's
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continuing research franchise on why Europe produces so much innovation and
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so few globally scaled technology giants.
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If you have been following the series, You already know the early installments.
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The first flagship piece established a diagnosis.
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Europe creates startups, but comparatively few become global leaders.
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Then we walk through fragmentation, Europe's hidden growth tax,
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and how legal tax and regulatory splits turn European expansion into repeated
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market entry rather than continental scaling.
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Then, the capital architecture work on where financing becomes discontinuous between growth stages.
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Then, demand without deployment on how European institutions and corporations,
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are slow to produce and deploy European innovation.
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How strategic customers themselves are a form of scale-up financing.
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Together, those four pieces trace the structural, financial,
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market, and operational sides of the gap.
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Today's installment adds the last of the core mechanisms, the human one,
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because none of the other pieces of the system work
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if the ecosystem cannot turn one generation of scale-ups into the operators,
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founders, angels, board members,
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and networks that build the next generation.
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That is what this episode is about. not a talent shortage, a recycling problem.
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For everybody thinking about what is that? Think about the paper mafia.
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Over the next roughly half hour I'm going to walk you through what the data
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actually says about the European tech talent, which is not what consensus story claims.
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I'm going to introduce you to a concept we're calling experience density,
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which is StartupRate.io's framing for what the Scala bottleneck actually is.
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Then I'm going to walk you through the Founder Factory data that shows the recycling
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mechanism as real and measurable.
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The Operator Pool data that shows how deep Europe's senior bench actually is.
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The German employee ownership reform that has been genuinely fixing parts of this
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and the remaining gaps, including something we call the escalator effect,
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which is the specific way European scale up experience can leak abroad when
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a company gets acquired.
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Then at the end, what actually helps? Let's go.
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The mistake in the usual story.
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Start with what the data actually says about European tech talent.
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Atomico's State of European Tech, for example, estimates that European tech
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workforce reaches roughly 3.5 million people in 2024.
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That is about a seven-fold increase over the previous decade. Seven-fold in 10 years.
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This is not the shape of a talent shortage story. If Europe were losing a headcount
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race with the United States, we would expect flat or declining headcount,
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mass immigration of engineers,
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or an inability to fill rows at the growing companies that do exist.
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None of those match the data. Europe is predicting engineers,
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researchers, and founders at rates that would have looked implausible in 2015.
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So when you hear the consensus explaining for the scale-up gap.
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Not enough talent, not enough ambition, not enough risk appetite,
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the raw headcount version of that explanation is factually wrong.
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The constraint is a different kind of talent, not people who can write software,
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not people who can start companies, people who have already scaled a company
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through the phases when most European startups actually stall.
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Internationalizing sales past your home market, inserting a layer of middle
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management as headcount goes from 50 to 500, surviving the specific boards and
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governance dynamics of a CSC or CSD round.
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That knowledge is not taught academically. It is not sitting in textbook.
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It is largely accumulated through direct exposure to high growth environments,
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through actually doing it at scale with a real company.
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You cannot mint that knowledge at, for example, university.
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You cannot hire your way around a market that has too little of it.
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So the right question about European scale-up talent is not how many engineers Europe produces, it is
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how much scaling experience Europe has managed to accumulate and critically,
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whether that experience recycles back into the ecosystem or actually leaks out of it.
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Experience density.
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Call the resource experience density.
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This is a startup rate.io framing, not a single published metric,
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but it's grounded in the evidence we are about to walk you through.
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Experience density is the concentration within an ecosystem of operators who
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have managed the 50 to 500 plus employee growth phase of a technology company.
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A city can have thousands of engineers and still lack the handful of people
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who know how to build a revenue operations function,
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run a multi-market launch, manage a board through a down round,
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or restructure a go-to-market motion when the first one hits a ceiling.
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That handful of people is what a scaling company actually competes for.
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No junior engineering headcount, no general managers imported from unrelated
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industries, specifically the people
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who have already done the thing the scaling company is trying to do.
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If you are a European scale-up trying to hire your first VP of revenue,
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your first international general manager, your first head of customer success
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scale, you are not competing for talent that it scares in general.
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You're competing for talent that is scarce in your city, in your language,
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in your regulatory environment, and in your investor network.
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Experience density.
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The point of the concept is that it explains why headcount statistics can look
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great while scaling continues to be hard.
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Raw talent grows linearly with time. Experience density grows non-linearly.
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It grows through the actual creation and scaling of companies and it grows faster
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in places where past scale-ups have concentrated their alumni.
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That is the framing. Now the evidence for how it is created.
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The recycling mechanism the academic mechanism that explains how experience
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density gets created is called entrepreneurial spawning,
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a landmark 2003 nber working paper published in the journal of finance in 2005,
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paul gompers josh lerner and david schafstein showed that venture-backed firms
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and public firms in entrepreneurial regions act as a source of new ventures.
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They call these firms training grounds, places where future founders learn to
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raise capital, build executive teams, and run high-growth operations.
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The mechanism is not mysterious. People who watch a scaling company succeed
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learn what success actually looks like.
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People who help build one learn how to build one.
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Then they leave and try themselves. 10 years later,
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in 2013, researchers at Maastricht University published the following work in
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small business economics using a Dutch cohort from 1999 to 2004.
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They found something important. Ventures spawned from well-performing firms
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tended to perform better financially themselves.
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The knowledge that transfers from a successful scale-up is not just how to run a company.
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It's specifically how to run a company that works. There is quality inheritance.
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The implication is direct and it changes how you should think about scale-up policy.
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Successful scale-ups are not just companies. They're institutions that train
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the next generation of founders and operators.
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If the ecosystem lets that experience recycle locally,
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the word to emphasize here is locally, because if the experience recycles,
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but it recycles in a different city, a different country, the original ecosystem
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does not compound founder factories.
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Now, here is what makes this a live European story rather than a theoretical one.
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The recycling is now measurable. It is happening and the data is public.
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Dealroom and Excel run an ongoing series called Founder Factories.
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Their 2026 update maps how alumni of European and Israeli scale-ups go on to start companies.
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The headline number, over 400 European and Israeli unicorns have produced more
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than 2,300 startups founded by their alumni.
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2,300, that's impressive.
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That's not a projection, that's a count.
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Germany specifically punches above its weight in D-Room and Excel's 2025 ranking
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of founder factories, three Berlin companies placed in Europe's top 10.
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Zalando alumni founded 56 venture-backed startups, deliver Hero alumni,
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43, and N26 alumni, 34, three companies, one city,
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133 second-generation startups,
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and the effect is local.
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In Dealroom and Excel's 2022 analysis, 56% of companies created by former Unicorn
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employees were founded in the same city where the alumni gained the experience.
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Berlin specifically showed roughly 70% local retention.
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So when scale-up alumni start their next thing, more than half of them start
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in the city where they earned the experience. Experience, once created,
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tends to stay where it was earned.
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That is why concentration compounds. Berlin is more Berlin next year because
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of what But then what's this here?
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That is a very different picture from Europe Lags Talent.
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That is a picture of specific European cities becoming denser and denser with
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people who know how to scale.
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The Operator Pool. How deep is Europe's Operator Bench? Atomico data again.
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As of 2024, more than 12,000 tech professionals in Europe held senior leadership
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experience at billion-dollar-plus technology companies.
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That is the pool of people who
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have been VP, C-level or senior director inside a company that made it.
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Almost one-third of them worked for US tech giants at some point.
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Think Google, Meta, Amazon, Salesforce and the equivalents.
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So, Europe is not just producing its own senior new operator,
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it is also importing back operators who train to the US ecosystem.
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12,000 plus senior tech leaders across Europe. Meaningful, growing and real.
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But, and this is Startup Radio's interpretation, not a directly measured claim,
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that pool is unevenly distributed. It is not evenly spread across all European
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cities and all technology sectors.
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The founder factory clustering data supports the direction. Senior operators
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concentration follows scale-up concentration.
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Berlin has more experience density than Frankfurt. Paris has more than Marseille.
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Stockholm has more than most of southern Europe combined.
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Which means that when we talk about Europe's scaling capacity,
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we should not talk about its number for the whole continent.
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It is a function of specific cities
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that have concentrated experience and cities that simply do not have.
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Germany's management context.
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And now a note on Germany specifically, because Germany is the largest economy
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in this conversation, and the pattern here is often misread.
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Germany's industrial and Mittelstands management is genuinely world-class.
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Any honest analysis of European industry has to concede that,
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but, and this is the key distinction, Germany's industrial management is optimized
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for a different problem than venture-scale hypergrowth.
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Industrial management excels at process optimization, risk minimization,
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quality control, long production runs, and stability across decades.
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Venture hypergrowth demands something different. Execution under acute instability.
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Tolerance for iteration.
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Comfort operating without proven templates. And rapid cost correction.
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These are not the same skill sets. this is a difference not a deficiency but
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it means that when a German deep tech company hits the scaling phase it cannot
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simply hire experienced industrial manager
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into scale up executive roles and expect the same performance the two disciplines
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are distinct and deep text scaling needs the second one
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which the region has historically had less of this is a quality assessment I'm
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offering it as a commentary, not as a measured superiority.
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But it is directly relevant too. Why don't more German deep tech companies scale globally?
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It is a real question, even in country, full of excellent managers.
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Germany's policy turn. The German government has structurally recognized this
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and has been trying to fix parts of it.
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The federal government's 2022 scale-up strategy named talent and employee ownership
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among its top 10 action fields.
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That was not a vague strategy document. It named specific mechanisms that were
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broken and needed policy intervention.
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In our interview with StartupRate.io with Anna Christmann, at the time digital
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commissioner, she argued,
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that the position that employees should face tax on the equity only when there
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is an actual liquidity event, not on paper gains, before any money has changed hands.
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That dry income taxation, as it is called, has been one of the specific things
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making European employee ownership less valuable than U.S. employee ownership.
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Chrisman was direct about what needs to change.
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I want to keep that on record. Chrisman said it on startup radio in 2023 before
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the reform actually shipped.
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What happened next is the interesting part.
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Employee ownership and the ease of gap.
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Now here is the mechanism getting concrete And here the wording has to be precise
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because this is one of the most misreported statistics in European tech.
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The historical issue was not
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that European employees owned less of their companies than US employees.
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The historical issue was the size of employee options pools.
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Index Ventures called Rewarding Talent Research from 2018 found this pattern.
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US is a pool. The employee stock option pools that companies set aside at each
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founding ground typically expanded roughly 20 to 25 percent by the late stage, meaning by CSD.
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European pools have historically been half that,
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driven largely by punitive tax treatment, driven by the very dry income problem
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Chris was talking about, if,
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issuing options creates a taxable event for your employees before they can actually
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sell anything, you issue fewer options.
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That gap has been closing.
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The not-optional campaign, Index Ventures and a Coalition of European Investors,
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estimates late-stage European employee ownership rose from about 12%,
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to about 16%, moving an estimated 5 billion euros in value to what employees.
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That is a campaign estimate, not an official statistic, but it's directional and it is meaningful.
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And in Germany specifically, the Zukunftfinanzierungsgesetz,
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the Future Financing Act, took effect in January 2024.
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It deferred taxation of employee stock options to actual liquidity events,
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so employees no longer face tax on paper gains they cannot yet sell.
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It raised the tax-exempt threshold under not-optionals methodology that brought
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the German employee stock option regime much closer to US comparable level.
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Not identical, but close enough to remove the specific structural bottleneck.
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Why does this matter for a recycling story?
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Because option value that actually reaches employees is what funds the next
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cohort of European angel investors and next cohort of European founders.
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If your employees never realize the value of their equity, the flywheel does not turn.
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If they do realize it, some percentage of them become angels and some smaller
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percentage of them start companies themselves.
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The ESOP reform is not primarily about worker compensation, it is about capital recycling.
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If U-Firm is a fund, a scalable or corporate strategy team that needs to be
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visible in European Scalar Policy Conversation, you can become a partner at
00:19:58.083 --> 00:20:01.058
startupraight.io, link down here in the show notes.
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The 2026 strategy. Germany has since gone further.
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In July 2026, the federal government published its startup and scale-up strategy
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spanning more than 150 measures across the full company life cycle,
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from formation through growth through internalization expansion.
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It is not just a startup strategy it is explicitly a startup and scale-up strategy,
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which in itself is a policy signal about where the government now understands
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the bottleneck to be on the infrastructure side our primary startup right to
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our interview with state secretary tomas jasonbeck
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details the de hub network and startup factories program,
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these are talent and spin-off engines They are designed to increase the rates
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at which universities and research institutions produce spin-off companies and
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to create scale-up support in specific locations,
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rather than diffusing in thinly.
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Across every German city.
00:21:09.601 --> 00:21:14.160
Now here is Startup Radio's honest assessment. Startup factories can increase
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:15.532
the rate of venture formation.
00:21:15.654 --> 00:21:19.172
Yes, they can absolutely produce more startups.
00:21:19.613 --> 00:21:24.120
What they cannot instantly create is experienced scale-up operators,
00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:29.453
because experienced scale-up operators are, by definition, people who have already scaled companies.
00:21:30.033 --> 00:21:36.012
Makes sense, right? You have to actually have the scale-ups before you can produce alumni.
00:21:36.535 --> 00:21:42.903
Policy creates the pipeline. Time and successful scale-ups actually happening creates the operators.
00:21:43.414 --> 00:21:49.416
That is not criticism of the strategy, it is a note about what to expect from it and when.
00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:55.296
Escalator effect. Now the harder part of story. Creating experience density
00:21:55.716 --> 00:21:57.832
is not enough if it leaks.
00:21:58.343 --> 00:22:03.301
Cross-border mergers and acquisitions are part of a healthy startup ecosystem.
00:22:03.521 --> 00:22:06.436
Founders, employees deserve liquidity.
00:22:06.813 --> 00:22:09.266
Investors deserve returns. Acquiring
00:22:09.266 --> 00:22:13.249
companies deserve access to European technology and European teams.
00:22:13.528 --> 00:22:16.889
There's nothing wrong with cross-border M&A as such.
00:22:17.986 --> 00:22:21.028
This specific problem is what happens after.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.546
When a European scale-up gets acquired by a US company and the R&D stays in
00:22:25.546 --> 00:22:30.322
Europe, but headquarters and strategic decisions making moves abroad,
00:22:30.629 --> 00:22:33.950
the local ecosystem loses something very specific.
00:22:34.269 --> 00:22:39.552
It loses the training ground for the most senior executive functions.
00:22:39.912 --> 00:22:44.080
The global capital allocation function, the legal and AIPRO function,
00:22:44.498 --> 00:22:47.325
the C-suite strategic decision-making function.
00:22:47.690 --> 00:22:52.131
I think of this possible mechanism as an escalator effect.
00:22:52.474 --> 00:22:58.436
When the top of the organization escalators lift out of Europe and moves to U.S.
00:22:58.436 --> 00:23:04.126
Headquarters, the European office ends up training mid-tier operators and specialized
00:23:04.126 --> 00:23:08.606
functional leaders rather than complete C-suite decision-makers.
00:23:09.041 --> 00:23:13.016
So the R&D talent stays. The junior operator talent stays.
00:23:13.396 --> 00:23:17.746
But the top of the operator pyramid, the people who would otherwise have gone
00:23:17.746 --> 00:23:23.296
to run the next generation of scale-ups as CEOs or to sit on their board
00:23:23.716 --> 00:23:28.726
or to lead their global expansion, that group increasingly gets into formative
00:23:28.726 --> 00:23:31.511
senior experiences outside of Europe.
00:23:32.869 --> 00:23:36.265
I want to be careful about how I position that.
00:23:36.544 --> 00:23:41.569
The escalator effect is a startup radio analytical lens. It is not a documented
00:23:41.569 --> 00:23:43.777
continent-wide statistical pattern.
00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:50.174
What it rests on is the European Investments Bank 2024 scale-up gap research,
00:23:50.377 --> 00:23:52.658
which shows how financing constraints
00:23:53.082 --> 00:23:58.313
push European scale-ups toward relocation, foreign listing, and foreign acquirers,
00:23:58.678 --> 00:24:03.241
draining what the EIB calls the local flywheel.
00:24:03.636 --> 00:24:06.167
That documented phenomenon is real.
00:24:06.753 --> 00:24:12.400
The escalator effect framing is my attempt to name a specific mechanism inside it.
00:24:12.801 --> 00:24:17.485
Take it as a lens for thinking, not a measured fact.
00:24:18.826 --> 00:24:23.836
Secondary liquidity. There is a lever that works before the IPO,
00:24:23.987 --> 00:24:29.664
before the ecosystem needs to wait for full exit or even to start recycling.
00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:36.206
Mid-stage employees, tender offers and secondary market transactions let operators
00:24:36.206 --> 00:24:41.246
and early employees realize part of the equity personally without forcing the
00:24:41.246 --> 00:24:43.346
company to premature exit.
00:24:43.492 --> 00:24:50.347
Revolut's 2024 employee secondary share sale is a concentrated European example.
00:24:50.649 --> 00:24:55.396
Employees who had been at the company for years were able to sell some of their
00:24:55.396 --> 00:25:01.888
options and turn paper wealth into actual money without Revolut having to IPO or sell.
00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:07.204
The careful claim about what this does for the ecosystem, secondary liquidity
00:25:07.558 --> 00:25:12.786
can shorten the time before employees are able to recycle capital back into
00:25:12.786 --> 00:25:16.341
the ecosystem for example as angels and as founders
00:25:16.689 --> 00:25:22.384
instead of waiting six to eight years for an ipo an employee who did a secondary sale
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:28.531
in year five can start writing angels checks in year six that is meaningful
00:25:28.833 --> 00:25:33.996
the stricter claim the secondary liquidity has been proven to accelerate ecosystem
00:25:33.996 --> 00:25:35.863
recycling cotton and white
00:25:36.194 --> 00:25:39.944
it is not something the current evidence directly supports
00:25:40.292 --> 00:25:43.148
the mechanism exists. It is spreading.
00:25:43.659 --> 00:25:46.074
It is a good thing for the operators who use it.
00:25:46.637 --> 00:25:51.612
But the casual effect on ecosystem-wide recycling is still to be measured.
00:25:52.117 --> 00:25:56.378
I'm naming that as a directional bat, not as a data point.
00:25:56.523 --> 00:26:01.686
StartupRate.io is where the European founders, VCs, corporate strategists,
00:26:01.686 --> 00:26:06.126
and policy institutions show up when they want to understand the European scale-up
00:26:06.126 --> 00:26:11.347
conversation as it actually is evidence first, even handed and specific.
00:26:11.706 --> 00:26:17.233
Partner with us to reach that audience with the affirmed story. What actually helps?
00:26:18.011 --> 00:26:23.637
Pulling the mechanism together this is startup radio's synthesis of the evidence
00:26:23.637 --> 00:26:26.254
above four recommendations one,
00:26:26.887 --> 00:26:32.127
treat scale-ups as training institutions when a european scale-up succeeds the
00:26:32.127 --> 00:26:37.247
ecosystem does not just get one successful company it gets a training institution
00:26:37.247 --> 00:26:39.013
for future founders and operators
00:26:39.402 --> 00:26:44.255
policy should be designed to keep the alumni of successful scale-ups in region
00:26:44.545 --> 00:26:50.257
and the capital in region because both of those inputs feed the compounding effect.
00:26:51.768 --> 00:26:57.856
2. Finish the employee ownership reform job across Europe. Germany's Future
00:26:57.856 --> 00:26:59.825
Financing Act was a good step.
00:27:00.028 --> 00:27:07.452
Nord Optional identifies seven European countries that now match or beat US stock option policy.
00:27:07.974 --> 00:27:11.916
That means the majority of European countries still does not.
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:18.272
Finishing the pan-European alignment of employee stock option regimes through something like a,
00:27:18.998 --> 00:27:25.866
EU ASOP or 28th regime for European equity is one of the most direct policy
00:27:25.866 --> 00:27:29.580
levers available to increase the rate of capital recycling.
00:27:29.969 --> 00:27:35.296
When more employees realize value from the options, more of them become angels
00:27:35.296 --> 00:27:39.629
and founders and it's a compounding effect. 3.
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:44.371
Support secondary liquidity mechanisms.
00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:47.947
Not because they will single-handedly solve the recycling problem,
00:27:48.069 --> 00:27:53.156
but because they materially shorten the time between when an employee gains
00:27:53.156 --> 00:27:59.093
a scaling experience and when that employee is in a position to fund the next generation.
00:27:59.406 --> 00:28:04.416
Framework that support secondary tender offers both at company level and at
00:28:04.416 --> 00:28:10.748
investor level is a small structural intervention with a plausibly large downstream effect.
00:28:11.323 --> 00:28:15.299
4. Address the escalator effect retention leak.
00:28:15.607 --> 00:28:20.297
This is the hardest one because it points back at the early installments of the series.
00:28:20.558 --> 00:28:25.806
Retention of C-suite strategic functions in Europe Capital requires late-stage
00:28:25.806 --> 00:28:31.486
capital, public market depth, deep enough that European scale-ups do not need
00:28:31.486 --> 00:28:35.135
to relocate to real growth capital or to go public.
00:28:35.698 --> 00:28:41.116
That is the EIB's core prescription, building the financial market infrastructure
00:28:41.116 --> 00:28:45.224
that lets European scale-ups scale without moving their headquarters.
00:28:45.671 --> 00:28:51.342
It is the connective tissue between this episode and every other episode in this series.
00:28:52.114 --> 00:28:55.179
The scale-up question verdict let me close,
00:28:55.946 --> 00:29:01.988
europe's scale-up gap is often narrated as a failure of nerve europeans the
00:29:01.988 --> 00:29:07.448
story goes are too cautious to regulate it to risk averse to build the great
00:29:07.448 --> 00:29:10.323
technology companies of the 21st century,
00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:15.635
that is not what the data says the data says europe has built the raw inputs
00:29:15.931 --> 00:29:22.788
three and a half million tech workers 12 000 plus senior operators 400 plus
00:29:22.788 --> 00:29:25.323
unicorns already producing 2300.
00:29:26.798 --> 00:29:32.428
Alumni founded startups the raw inputs are there the startups are there the
00:29:32.428 --> 00:29:37.308
successful scale ups are there in growing numbers what the data also says is
00:29:37.308 --> 00:29:39.830
that Europe is still learning to recycle,
00:29:40.341 --> 00:29:46.047
to turn each successful scale up into the draining ground and the capital source
00:29:46.181 --> 00:29:47.377
for the next generation.
00:29:47.585 --> 00:29:52.264
Some parts of that recycling mechanism are built.
00:29:53.569 --> 00:29:58.648
Again, some parts of this recycling machinery are being built.
00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:05.869
The Zukunftsfinanzierungsgesetz worked. The 2026 startup and scale-up strategy is comprehensive.
00:30:06.264 --> 00:30:12.237
Secondary liquidity is spreading. Founder factories are compounding in specific European cities.
00:30:12.626 --> 00:30:18.704
Other parts are still broken. The escalator effect leaks the top of the operator permit.
00:30:19.010 --> 00:30:22.262
Most European countries have not finished ESOP reform.
00:30:22.657 --> 00:30:28.810
And the late-stage capital infrastructure that would prevent forced relocations
00:30:29.083 --> 00:30:31.770
is still under construction across the continent.
00:30:32.363 --> 00:30:34.842
The scale-up gap is not a talent shortage.
00:30:35.718 --> 00:30:41.314
It's a recycling gap. Fix the recycling and the density compounds on its own.
00:30:41.796 --> 00:30:45.070
That was part four of the European scale-up question.
00:30:46.028 --> 00:30:50.556
If you found this useful, please rate or review StartupRate.io wherever you're
00:30:50.556 --> 00:30:51.815
listening or watching this.
00:30:52.082 --> 00:30:56.266
The companion blog post with the full evidence table, dissertation-ready statistics,
00:30:56.643 --> 00:31:00.946
the founder factory data and the ASAP reform timeline, and the complete source
00:31:00.946 --> 00:31:02.663
list is at startuprate.io.
00:31:02.976 --> 00:31:07.069
The full series is worth reading. As a corpus, the central pillar is called
00:31:07.272 --> 00:31:08.716
the European Scale-Up Question.
00:31:08.716 --> 00:31:13.292
The three prior installments are Fragmentation, European Growth Tax,
00:31:13.686 --> 00:31:16.908
the European Scale-Up Gaps, Why Startups Don't Become Tech Giants,
00:31:17.344 --> 00:31:19.288
and Demand Without Deployment.
00:31:19.637 --> 00:31:22.856
Together with this episode, they trace the structural, financial,
00:31:22.856 --> 00:31:26.260
market, and human sides of the connected question.
00:31:26.922 --> 00:31:31.125
Part 5 is coming. Subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:33.034
and wherever you find your audio.
00:31:33.609 --> 00:31:36.982
This has been Joe Manager for StartupRate.io. See you soon.