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Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
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Today is a rabbit hole episode.
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So for our rabbit hole episodes, we have myself and we also have Leah here.
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So today's episode will be kind of just a casual chit-chat.
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And we will talk about making our own starter.
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We will talk about a bakery that we just went and visited recently, and we are going to talk about inclusions in bread.
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I'm Allie White.
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And I'm Leah Smith.
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And this is Saving Bread.
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We have a couple things to talk about.
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We just took a trip together.
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We have all the things going on.
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So let's start with how we're reading sourdough culture and how that inspired us to start our own sourdough culture.
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Yeah, so number one, the book is super fascinating.
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I did not, there's just so much information in there and so many facts.
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I was really, really surprised on the depth of the author of how far back he went to talk about sourdough and then the evolution of bread in general from being something, and I think you've mentioned this before, something that everybody knew how to make.
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You had to know how to make it.
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People survived off of bread.
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That was their main source of food, right?
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Yeah.
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To then transitioning that into a more commercialized bread, right?
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Something that was cheaper, that was easier, faster to make, less labor intensive, et cetera.
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So that was really cool.
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But as part of that, in our last, who knows if it was a rabbit hole or if it was just the extended cut of one of our conversations, but you and I talked about starter.
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And that book had a recipe on how to create your own starter.
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And so I did that.
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As you know, I am not a sourdough baker.
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So this was the first, not the first time that I've dealt with starter before, because I think I've in your classes, I received starter from you that I ended up having to feed.
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But I didn't ever create it myself.
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Maybe I had, maybe I hadn't, I don't remember.
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But anyway, I started that, and that was a very interesting experiment for me to do from start to end, taking the instructions directly from the book.
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Okay, cool.
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So right now we have Sourdough Culture as our book club book.
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I know a lot of listeners are reading it, and Eric, I have an interview with him coming up on Wednesday, so it'll probably come out in about a month.
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And like you said, there's an instructional page on how to make your own starter.
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And so you went ahead and you did that.
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So let's hear about it.
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Yeah, so you and I had talked beforehand about me creating a starter and making it be uh whatever's available to everybody, right?
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So not everybody necessarily has freshly milled flour or whole grain flour.
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So what I ended up using was just basic King Arthur bread flour for 50%, and then the other 50% was all-purpose white flour.
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So that's what I added into like what he has you do, and I might have to look in the book to look at the instructions exactly, but it's 50% one flour, 50% the other flour, right?
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So I did 50% white and 50% bread flour, and I put that in with the water that was directed, and then it asked me to mix with my fingers.
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So with your fingers?
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I'm yes, it said to mix with my fingers.
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Yeah, I assume that's again to cultivate additional yeast, right?
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Or to get that moving along.
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I used a clean new glass, not new, but a clean glass jar, put everything in there, and then it had me put a paper towel or, you know, a I did a paper towel for that one versus like a cheesecloth or something like that.
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Yeah.
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But anyway, paper towel with a rubber band on the top of it, and I left that for the time frame that it asked me to before I had to remove like 80% of it and then continue to feed it in that cycle.
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In the first four days, you did that.
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Is it once every single day?
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I might have to look.
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And so, anyway, the the first day it was just kind of hanging out, and it built up over that time frame that you do that for the beginning again four days.
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And it definitely started to obviously create yeast and created the bubbles and started to smell funky.
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Like it was uh funky define funky, please.
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I want to know everything about this.
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Define funky, we need to know.
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This little gem smelt a little cheesy, yeah.
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She smelt cheesy, you know?
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Um, like a ripe, delicious, maybe not delicious cheese, you know, like that you would maybe smell initially and think, ew.
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But then when you take a cheaper, can I ask you?
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Can I ask you, did this interesting smell if you didn't know that was supposed to happen, or if you hadn't had this outline, would you have been like, oh no, I did something wrong, and then like throw it out, or were you expecting it to smell a little bit cheesy and then you just decided to power through?
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Because I have been cooking for a long time in general, like the fermentation process, it wouldn't surprise me that it smelled cheesy and that that was okay because there were no other signs of mold, which is different.
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It looked sure again, it looked like what you normally see for a starter, but there is an odor, and if you're not to your point aware of that odor, you could think that it has gone bad very quickly because it smells like again a a cheese or maybe sour milk, or you know what I mean?
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Like it yeah, so yeah, you might think maybe not.
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It's good for the people to know because yeah, if they do this, they need to know that there is going to be a time of smells.
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Of smells, absolutely.
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It was and it was I mean, it was a smell too that went into the kitchen.
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It wasn't just great in its own area, like you could smell it coming into the kitchen.
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She was like, I'm here, I'm fermenting, pay attention to me.
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Yes, and I will say that that was, you know, uh with the help of my fingers.
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Mixing the god.
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So anyway.
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Oh lord.
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Day one, you put everything together.
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Um, again, you place the and I'm reading this from the book, you place the bowl in a warm location out of direct sunlight for three days.
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Oh, I'm sorry, for three days until the bubbles form on the top of the mixture and it puffs.
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So I did that.
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Day three, you remove the covering, you discard about 80%, and then you begin to feed it.
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And then you do that for four to ten days.
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Um, you do that same thing over and over again, and then mine started to actually rise and fall towards the end of that like actual 10 days.
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So, anyway, he does mention that from day four to day 10, there will be bubbles of carbon monoxide visible through the throughout the starter on the surface and a black liquid called hooch.
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I didn't really get hooch.
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I think you came over and looked at it, and I did have a decent maybe water on the bottom.
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So that was the one thing that you suggested is like you can also mix it if you see that water, but that was the only thing.
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I actually didn't get hooch on mine until I fermented it or I put it into the fridge to then sit while we went on a trip.
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And then I came home and there is hooch on it.
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Cool.
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Um, great job, great follow-through.
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I'm very impressed by you because I would like to tell you about my experience trying to make a starter, which was completely the opposite of your experience because I gave up.
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So, first of all, thank you for doing that, and I'm really excited to talk to Eric about that when he's on because that'll be a fun, a fun topic.
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But I, my job that I was given that I did it, I didn't really do that well of was to make a starter with pineapple juice because that is trending right now.
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People are making, and please forgive me, I am recovering from laryngitis, so my voice is holding on by a thread.
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The people who I have seen post about it most recently are a Catherine from Amore Fermentum and I hope I'm saying that right, and then Lila from the Early Rise.
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I know that Alex from Wild Woman has done it, and then they source like original sources, and I believe there's a woman named Paula.
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I can't remember her last name right now, uh, but I will look it up during our chat.
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It's Paula Pineapple Starter, I'm sure something will pop up.
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But anyway, um, so basically what you're supposed to do is instead of using water, you're supposed to use pineapple juice.
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So Catherine from Amore Fermentum on Instagram, she has a whole guide on it.
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So I followed her guide and I decided to make a starter that way.
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Yeah, Catherine Shield, Amore Fermentum, and on the top of her highlights, she has a little highlight called pineapple starter.
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So I followed that, and then I was thinking, you know, I can do that, but I don't have a control.
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So I did the pineapple starter and then I did a water starter side by side so I could compare them.
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And I also took the pH of them just because I was interested.
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And I will say my one that was made with water had the same smells that yours had as well.
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It was unpleasant.
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It was like gym socks, and I was like, oh no.
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And then the pineapple one never had a bad smell from day one, and I would say that the behavior of the two was very different as well.
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So I kind of wanted to go into that and talk about maybe the science behind that a little bit.
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Is it did you find her on Instagram?
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So the original person that should be credited for the pineapple starter, her name is she is a baker and a microbiologist.
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Her name is Deborah Wink, and she used unsweetened pineapple juice instead of water for the first three days.
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On here, it says the juice lowers the pH, creating an acidic environment that suppresses foul-smelling bad bacteria while allowing good wild yeast to thrive.
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And so that was the difference.
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So the pineapple one, because the pineapple is acidic, right?
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The pineapple juice is literally acidic, you're already starting at a much lower pH than you would if you were just using water.
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When you mix flour and water together, the pH tends to be around 5.6 at the beginning.
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And then as fermentation goes along, it tends to drop.
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But this is making a starter from scratch.
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So the pH is likely going to be somewhere between 5.5 and 6.0.
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When you have pineapple juice and you mix it with flour, the pH is much lower, like 4.5.
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So by lowering the pH, you are not allowing the foul-smelling bacteria that are naturally in the flower to reproduce, grow, make these smells.
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You've you're suppressing them.
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And so I would argue that the two starters aren't really that much different.
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You're just suppressing the activity of some of the bacteria.
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Whereas the one that I mixed with the flour and water, what happened was I got, and you probably did too, I got a false rise.
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So in the first like 24, 48 hours, it grew a lot.
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And um, that happened because those bacteria that live at a higher pH were thriving and they were creating gases and they were growing.
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But eventually, once the pH starts to lower as the starter becomes more mature, those bacteria will no longer be able to survive.
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And so the true bacteria of a sourdough, starter sourdough culture, they live at a lower pH.
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And so those are the ones that will begin to thrive and multiply, but you have to kind of like kill off and suppress them, or I guess suppress is a better term, suppress them over time in the water one versus the pineapple one is immediate because the pH is already lower because of the acidic pineapple juice.
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Does that make sense?
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Am I saying that in a way that makes sense?
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Yeah, no, absolutely.
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It does make sense.
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Um, I mean, I have some follow-up questions for that, as I mean, I guess my question is does it matter?
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I mean, it was a much more pleasant experience, and I am not the person who came up with this.
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I am not a person who's done it many times.
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I'm just a gal who tried it one time and I have my own opinions.
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If you if anyone wants to really deep dive, I would go to the original source and check out um Deborah Wink or check out um Catherine's page because those people have really spent a lot more time and care on it.
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From my perspective, I would say it was a more pleasant experience using the pineapple juice, just because I didn't have to deal with the smells that you're talking about.
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And in the end, they were both very similar.
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I will also say on day four, I was like, I'm over this, I'm wasting so much flour, like feeding these little starters, and I'm a busy girl and I don't have time.
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So I I would just prefer to like get a starter from someone that I know and trust.
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But if you, if you listeners out there are like really committed, like and well behaved like Leah, and do the job, do it from scratch because it I'm sure it's like a fun way to learn something new.
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Um but I will say those first three days with the pineapple were much better smelling.
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Yeah, that's interesting.
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I mean, it it makes sense.
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I guess another question that I have, right, is as you try to suppress the the bad bacteria or the other bacteria to get to the good bacteria.
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Is there a difference in time then?
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Like for the the regular flour and water?
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I I don't know.
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Like, is that why you try to do that?
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On days on Catherine's page, she said that she's able to get it up to strength in four.
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And I know that she's using a really high protein strong white flour when she makes hers, and she even baked a loaf of bread, I think, on day four, if I'm not mistaken.
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Okay.
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Um, both of us used some with whole wheat flour, so that could be more active and and behave differently.
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Um I will also say that people had a lot of feelings about it that they they needed to express, which I totally appreciate.
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Um, some people did not like the pineapple starter idea.
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Catherine reached out to me and said that she's also had people who are very upset by it.
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I'm not sure what this like pineapple juice is um provoking in people, but they don't polarizing, huh?
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It's polarizing.
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It is you're either team pineapple or team water, apparently.
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I'm neutral.
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I I will say that the pineapple will smelt better, so that was nice, but I have no skin in the game.
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Yeah, I don't know if it would make a difference to me.
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I think the only difference that would matter to me is is it more or less complicated?
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Even the smell, I mean, I but I cook, I I I eat different kinds of foods, I have kimchi in my fridge.
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Like that, those things are all like not really that big of a deal to me personally.
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Yeah.
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But if you personally didn't like those kinds of smells and they bothered you, then I yeah, then that would be a recommendation if they're one for one.
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I am really team um will it bread.
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Meaning I don't think anything is better than another.
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I don't think it's ever a good idea to say this is the only way.
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And it's just a different way.
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And uh both Catherine and um Lila, when they post about it, they just present it as like this is an option, it's not mandatory, uh, which I love because it just it's just an invitation to try something new and something different.
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Um I tried it, uh and that's it.
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That's all I have to say about it.
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You tried it, you did a good job.
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And I think our listeners can try it too if they want.
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Yeah, and I I would definitely recommend trying to find somebody who understands this well enough to get those sources and trusted sources because there is a lot of information out there, and I don't think all of it is correct.
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And I say that, and so if you just Google something, it might not be the best idea to to dive down that you know, Reddit rabbit hole.
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Rabbit hole, pun intended.
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Um, but but try to understand like we have the resources here, or reach out to somebody or make sure that they have the the knowledge that backs what they're recommending for you to do or in the instructions that they're providing.
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I've never made a post about making your own sourdough starter because I don't know that much about it, and I'm not gonna pretend like I do.
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Okay, so we went to South Lake Tahoe together for 4th of July for my birthday.
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It was a good time.
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It was super fun.
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It wasn't.
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Went down the Truckee River.
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Yes.
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We swam.
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We ate cake.
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Shout out, Love Yvonne.
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Oh, what a fantastic guava cake that was, and just beautiful.
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Absolutely.
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Leah ordered me, yes, Leah ordered me, I'll post a picture of it on the in the stories.
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It's she ordered me this amazing guava cake from a local baker, Love Yvonne, and it was one of the best cakes I've ever had.
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And Leah put these little babies on top.
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What are what are those called?
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The um the little naked babies.
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Oh, it's sunny.
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Yeah, sunny.
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That's right.
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The sunny babies.
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Um, yes, we did that for cake decorations.
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Yeah.
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Uh although Love Yvonne has a beautiful cake decoration, but you know, we had to have two big numbers of the candles and two big babies of dress as a plant and an animal, obviously.
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100%.
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Um, yeah, I will definitely post that because it was it was great and it was really good.
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And we ate it for like three days.
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It's fantastic.
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Okay, so our in addition to eating cake, we also went to my friend's bakery up in Reno.
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So we'd spent a day up in Reno and we checked out some local thrift shops.
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Um, and we stopped at Beloved's Bakery and Cafe.
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That's correct.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:27.200
So the the address is 229 East Plum Lane, and it's unit number 129, and that's in Reno, Nevada.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:33.119
And this bakery was created by Zach Condren.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.599
I hope that's I'm I hope I'm saying your last name right, Zach.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.599
If not, text me and I'm so sorry.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:51.440
Um, I met Zach at a class that I took with Grayson Gill a few years ago, and we didn't get to chat that much in class, but yeah, I had had a couple of people recommend his bakery to me, so we decided to go check it out.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:56.400
So why don't you tell our listeners like some of the things that we tried and what we really liked?
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:57.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:02.640
So, for folks who don't know, I lived in Reno for around 12 years.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:10.720
So back in the day, 12 years ago, and to be fair, I haven't been there for another 10 years, so it's been a little bit of time.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:17.440
Uh, but back in the day, there weren't necessarily a lot of great bakeries for fresh food.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.680
Reno is a bit of, um, I think Zach also mentioned it, right?
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.799
It's a bit of a food desert, right?
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.279
It's just difficult to get fresh food in there.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:32.079
Um, I think the culture is changing to get more fresh locally produced food as well.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:39.920
But a lot of that before was not really that fresh, not that local, a lot of chain restaurants, a lot of casino food, you know, things like that.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.759
So it was really, really nice to see a bakery like this in Reno, me coming back into Reno.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.119
It's actually a pretty cool section.
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:54.559
It looks like they have attached to it a building with a thrift shop, which is junkie.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.000
That was around when I was around.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:03.920
And then it looks like they're doing some other things in there, maybe for some more local, um, maybe food, but maybe just local stores, et cetera.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.119
So that was awesome.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:06.720
But yeah, we got there.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.039
There was already a line out the door.
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:16.799
They had tables outside, they had tables inside, and we tried a lot of their pastries.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.240
Considering we're traveling, most of the time we end up ordering things that are smaller, easier for us to eat.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.640
So a very large selection of things that they had.
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.359
Uh, but and savory and sweet.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.440
So that was really nice because we a lot of times default to savory.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.640
So they had some beautiful biales with cheese and onions, poppy seeds on the outside of them.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:43.039
Uh, we didn't order the sandwiches, but they had sandwiches there that were next.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.920
Um, and then we started getting into the pastries, right?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.799
And so we did order a chocolate croissant.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.799
We ordered a morning bun.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.640
We had a hazelnut chocolate.
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.759
It wasn't a croissant, but it was a laminated dough that was folded over again flat.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:01.680
Really good.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:08.559
And we ended up getting a pretzel as well, along with a sourdough bittard, because it was a smaller thing for us.
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.400
Because again, we're traveling.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.200
And then two cappuccinos.
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.039
And then we had the strawberry little popover.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:15.359
Yeah.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:16.880
Which looked like a cupcake.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:17.119
Yeah.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:17.359
Yep.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:23.200
The strawberry with the rosewater cream, and it looked like a little cupcake, a laminated little cupcake.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.920
And so I think that was the variety that we had.
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:27.359
A couple of savory items.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.319
Again, we weren't trying to get sandwiches, but we did get the pretzel.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:35.839
We got a sourdough petard, um, the biali, and then the rest were the sweet pastries.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.200
I regret not getting a sandwich because they look really, really good.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.559
And they looked incredible.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:41.920
Zach was really sweet.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:52.559
I wasn't expecting it, but he sat down and chatted for about 20 minutes and just caught up and was telling me a little bit more about some of their plans that they have for the facility.
00:22:52.880 --> 00:23:15.519
And I believe they are trying to and kind of in the works of getting a grain mill there and starting to produce some of their own flour on site, which is actually incredible considering what you said at the beginning, which is Reno is kind of um bit not been known to have a lot of those types of things currently.
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:20.400
So um it's really cool, and I'm excited to see what they do with that.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:26.640
So we chit chatted a little bit about using freshly milled high extraction flour.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:36.319
Um like I said, he took Grayson's class with me, so he's more than more than equipped to to work with that, but it was just a fun conversation to have.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.079
Yeah, I think that's awesome.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:44.000
And anybody who is going to Reno, I don't know how many listeners are going to Reno, but they also had regular food.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:50.880
We didn't, again, we were not able to try that at the time, but they had a whole regular breakfast menu, and it was really big.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:58.400
So you could go in there, you could sit down, you could sit outside, there was plenty of space, so it wasn't a very small bakery where you're just grabbing stuff to go.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:23:58.720
Sure.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:07.599
You could grab pastries, bread, they had a lot of different bread varieties as well, and you could grab a breakfast if you wanted to to support them in that way as well.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:08.880
Cool.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.599
And our last topic for today is going to be something that we got into hard in Tahoe.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.559
I can't even remember how this conversation started, but really got me going.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:25.119
That is true.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:26.960
And we wish we were mic'd, folks.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:27.680
Sorry about that.
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:28.799
We had no excuse.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:34.160
I had my wireless mics, but it was like once we realized the conversation was incredible, it was too late.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.960
We're like, well, we've already been chatting about this for like half an hour.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.160
But we were talking about inclusions in bread.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:50.160
So if you don't know what an inclusion is, an inclusion is something that goes in the bread that's not like water, flour, salt starter.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:03.359
So an example would be like if you buy a bread and it has olives in it, or um cranberry walnut, or jalapeno cheddar, or like these things that people put inside of the dough.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.920
And then yeah, that's called an inclusion.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.440
That's the term for it.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.079
And um, I personally don't use inclusions.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:26.400
Um, if I do, it's very rarely I do a garlic one because of of course we're living out in near Gilroy, so garlic grows everywhere here, so it feels like a it makes sense for the space.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.480
I'll do like a turmeric leek loaf from Sarah Owens.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.119
Um every once in a while I might do one that has cheese and green onion depending on the time of year and the seasonality.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.880
But for the most part, I would say that I let the wheat speak for itself.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:50.319
I put all this time and effort and training into using local flour and different types of grain.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.079
Like I want you to be able to taste those things.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.480
I don't want to cover them up with other flavors.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:59.599
That's just what works for me and um my identity as a baker.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.599
But like, let's get into this a little bit because we had a great chat about it.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:14.160
Yeah, so I think you and I talked about that because a lot of bakeries that I end up going to, or I think that you and I even see everywhere.
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:19.519
Like it's not just Reno, it's not just the Bay Area, it's everywhere, right?
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:25.440
A lot of bakeries that you go to end up having these loaves with a lot of inclusions in them.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.839
They maybe have half of their loaves that are rotating inclusions.
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.240
And then yeah, what does that mean for the bread?
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:36.400
Are you just trying to do flavorful bread right through inclusions?
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:41.359
Or do you have really great bread that stands alone and you do that commercially, right?
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.359
Because again, to me, it's also a commercial thing.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:59.920
These are very large bakeries in most cases or larger bakeries, but even small people too, where a lot of times to get people in the door, it's easy for them to say, like, I would love that walnut cranberry bread because I love walnuts and cranberries in my bread.
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.039
And that gets them to do their first purchase, right?
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:03.599
Of course.
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:14.160
But yeah, you know, I think heavily relying on inclusions is unfortunate because that's all you're you're tasting and seeing as part of the bread.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:15.200
I agree.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:29.519
And this is not to speak poorly of any baker out there who's like just trying to get bread out because everyone does it differently, everyone has a different story, everyone's about something different, and like we love that.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:31.599
We love to see what everyone is doing.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:40.480
But it was an interesting conversation and one that I think was really respectful of, well, what is the story, right?
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:51.920
Because if we're telling a story with our loaves to our customers, exactly to your point, is the inclusion something local and from the area that you're in?
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:53.680
Does it represent your culture?
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.640
Does it represent a memory from your childhood?
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.640
Does it represent your mom's favorite dish?
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:01.200
I don't know.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.400
Maybe it does.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:14.400
And what a wonderful way to tell more about yourself to your customers by having inclusions that speak to your story.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.519
So when I well, I'll give you two examples.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.599
I think ones that we were talking about.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:26.240
One was um I feel like poor Grayson, he's probably like, Do you need to talk about me on every episode?
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:27.279
But yes, I do.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.319
You're amazing, and we all love you.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:43.119
Um, he was recently in Japan teaching a class, and I was really curious because I've taken a few classes with him and I've spent time with him now, and he does utilize inclusions, and he's very respectful when he does.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.400
I was like, What is he gonna do?
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.000
I was so curious to see.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:58.319
And I'd have to go back and look specifically, but I'm almost positive that he got some local rice and then maybe made a porridge or toasted it or something like that.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:19.599
And then he also got some local seaweed that someone was drying and put that into some of the bread, and it was just so thoughtful and was so beautiful, and it it just watching him work with the other bakers in the area and celebrating these ingredients and putting them thoughtfully into the bread, it was it made me emotional to see it because I I was so inspired by it.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:30.559
Um so that's just like one small example, and then another thing that I usually bring up in my classes is the jalapeno cheddar breads, which is what we talked about.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:38.240
Jalapeno cheddar, and I used to make them too when I first started, because as you said, sometimes you just need to get people in the door and people like it.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:47.680
I'm not saying like abandon the jalapeno cheddar loaf, but what I am saying is is there a way to make it more interesting?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:49.839
Are you pickling the jalapenos?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:57.119
Are you buying them from someone who grows them and pickles them and being able to support a local farmer who's growing peppers in your community?
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.480
Being able to support someone who specializes in pickling?
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.640
Maybe there's a local farm and they're making a smoked cheese, right?
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:09.920
Or they're they're having pasture cows and they do something interesting, right?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:23.039
Are there ways that we can continue to not only tell our story, but highlight the other people doing the work in our area through our loaf and have it be like a love letter from our community?
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.960
I think that is really an interesting path to go down.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:36.559
And can you kind of give your perspective to us as because I know you're not you're not really like a sourdough baker, but you're definitely a consumer and a customer, and I'd just love to hear what you think about it.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:44.640
Yeah, so I think what I gravitate towards now is something and we've had this conversation as I break open bread.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.440
So again, I am not a bread maker.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.799
I have not taken a single one of Allie's bread classes.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:53.599
I have taken her other classes for other things, right?
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.000
But not a sourdough bread class.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:08.079
But now with the education, obviously being friends with Allie, but you know, seeing her Instagram, looking at other people's pages through this journey, and also just eating the bread, right?
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.920
It's so interesting to me now that I can cut open a loaf of bread and immediately go, mm, it's not it.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.319
Or I open it up and I taste it and I go, there's nothing here for flavor.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:28.720
And so I think for me as a more educated consumer now, is if if I want to see inclusions, I want to see inclusions that are yeah, more interesting.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.720
Like, what are you doing that is different from the jalapeno cheddar?
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.279
And then, like, how are you presenting that to me?
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.440
Is it like you said, is it your own homemade pickled jalapenos or is somebody else doing that?
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.839
Is a different cheese than just the cheddar cheese that you bought from Kraft that you're throwing in there?
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:49.440
And again, I it's not a shame on anybody who does that regularly.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.759
I totally understand and I totally get it.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:32:11.119
But me as an evolving consumer of bread, of bread that is of a much higher quality than I would get now at Whole Foods or anywhere else, I want to see something that is really delicious, but also not the same thing that I'm going to get from Safeway.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:13.279
I want it to be interesting.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:19.440
I want it to taste different, and I want the bread to shine alongside the inclusions.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:24.559
I want them to be a relationship that I get to enjoy both, not one or the other.
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.720
Yeah, and I think that's really thoughtful and I think that's really fair.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.240
And don't get me wrong.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.319
I mean, I get asked about jalapeno cheddarloaves all the time.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.319
I could make them and they would sell like hotcakes, and that's awesome.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:42.640
I mean, truly, it's like I know that people like them and I can make them.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.720
It there's no issue with me.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.599
I can easily I think for ease, what people do is they make one mother dough.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:33:00.720
Although this is kind of a misuse of that term in my opinion, but they make one big dough and they break it up into several different bins and they put different inclusions in each bin, and like for ease and for production, like, yeah, go off.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:12.480
Um but I I guess I like the challenge of how can I how can I make this a little bit more unique?
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:23.039
Because a question that I get often is well, I've got six other bakers in town, and I've got two other bakers at the farmer's market, and we're all making, you know, country dough.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:24.400
Like we're all making country loaves.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:26.640
Like, how do I differentiate myself?
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:40.240
That's how you find that special, that special jalapeno, that special cheddar, and you put it in your loaf because then it's gonna be different than the person who's doing the jalapeno cheddar loaves down the street.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:46.160
And truly, I think a lot of people are coming to this space to learn how to work with more fresh flour.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:52.400
And if you're going through the effort to do that, why hide the flavor behind anything else?
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.400
And, you know, maybe have both.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:02.559
Have a local whole wheat loaf and then, you know, keep the jalapeno cheddar, but consider having different options for different customers.
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:03.920
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.680
And you and I talked about that, right?
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.760
Again, there is a commercial aspect to it to you needing to sell bread, right?
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:10.800
That's what you're doing.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.079
You want to sell out, you want no extras, right?
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:15.199
You don't want any loss.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.559
So I completely get it that there is a commercial aspect to it of this is what the consumers want.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:25.920
But yeah, I agree that I think it can be more thoughtful in the way that that happens.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:33.199
And I think those people eventually will see the bread for what it is, and then maybe not rely on inclusions anymore.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.639
I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:41.840
Sometimes I I do buy bread with inclusions here and there, just depending on you know what I'm pick up in the market or whatever.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:48.880
And then sometimes I feel like, oh, I can't make I can't put peanut butter on it for my daughter because it's got green onions in it.
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.960
Yeah, you know, or it's olives.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.199
Yeah, or it's like I got this something else and now it doesn't go with me or whatever.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.760
So sometimes that can be a challenge.
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.360
And then so if it's just the plain loaf, you can just use it for whatever.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:08.000
But yeah, I I think it would, it's a call to action to not make any changes to what you're doing now.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:12.719
Like go hard, sell those loaves, sell the inclusions, like make your money.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:31.440
But in the background, maybe it there is something that you're thinking of right now, and it's sparking an idea of like, oh, I forgot there's someone down the street who makes sun-dried tomatoes, or I forgot that there was a farmer selling local pecans that I could roast and put in my bread.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:44.639
Like, start to think in that way, and I think you'll be surprised at how much more connected you feel with your product and with your customers and your community if you open up your mind to um different ideas about inclusions.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:45.920
Yeah, that's it.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.760
That was the inclusion conversation.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:57.280
It was very interesting, it was a very natural conversation when we were together, and I appreciate the I think the balance perspective between the two of us.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:59.039
I mean, we are pretty cool.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:00.559
The coolest.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:09.119
And we've had we've I don't think that the you know, not everyone's gonna listen to the rabbit hole episodes, and that's fine.
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:17.920
I'm a person that likes to consume content of people just chit-chatting, especially when on my bake days, like I listen to different podcasts of people just having conversations with each other.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.440
It helps me, you know, sort out my thoughts and be inspired.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:31.360
And so the people who have listened to our rabbit hole episodes and the two of us chatting, they really love having you on the podcast and they love hearing your voice.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.880
And um, so I think it's just like a fun thing to offer for everyone who wants a little extra.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:48.320
And Leah is um just the voice of reason and committed and has great ideas, and it does a good job also representing like the new baker, right?
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.320
Because that's an important voice to have.
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:51.280
Absolutely.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:37:02.000
As we continue on, I will try, folks, I promise, to bake with Ali a little bit more and provide that feedback loop back to people here because I do think it's important.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.159
Um, I am, to be completely honest, absolutely terrified of sourdough.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:15.679
So I think it would be great for other listeners to figure out that balance and to understand the struggle from a beginner baker.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.719
Um so I hope I can provide that.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:22.239
I have the perfect podcast for you.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.079
Oh my gosh, really?
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.079
It's called Saving Bread.
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:30.000
They're for you.
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.199
Yeah, you're gonna leave it.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:32.960
I know.
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:46.639
So yeah, um, hopefully I can bring those experiences, experiences along with Allie and I just having great conversations about bread and where we go and where we eat and what we do, all the things.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:55.039
All right, well, that's it for this rabbit hole episode, and we we've got the interview with Eric coming up, so that'll be exciting.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.320
Very exciting.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:57.599
Um, great book.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.760
So hopefully everybody finished up.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.960
I know a lot of people are reading it, so it's pretty cool.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:04.239
And that was all you agree.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:05.760
That was all Leah.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.440
She thought of the book club.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:08.880
She is so smart.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:09.599
That's true.
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:11.840
Looks and brains on this girl.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.920
All right, I'm gonna stop the recording for us.
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:14.800
No, keep going.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.559
Do we need recommendations of new books?
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:17.519
I got a few.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:17.920
Cool.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.360
Got a few came in.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:19.840
Yeah.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:20.559
Cool.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.039
All right, until next time.
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:24.000
Bye.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:25.280
Bye.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.079
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.079
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:41.840
I'm Allie White.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.920
And as always, happy baking and long live real bread.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.959
Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.080
Today is a rabbit hole episode.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:11.039
So for our rabbit hole episodes, we have myself and we also have Leah here.
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:15.119
So today's episode will be kind of just a casual chit-chat.
00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:19.359
And we will talk about making our own starter.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:26.320
We will talk about a bakery that we just went and visited recently, and we are going to talk about inclusions in bread.
00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:27.359
I'm Allie White.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:28.399
And I'm Leah Smith.
00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:30.480
And this is Saving Bread.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:50.640
We have a couple things to talk about.
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:52.640
We just took a trip together.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.640
We have all the things going on.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:01:04.319
So let's start with how we're reading sourdough culture and how that inspired us to start our own sourdough culture.
00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:09.519
Yeah, so number one, the book is super fascinating.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:14.560
I did not, there's just so much information in there and so many facts.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:31.920
I was really, really surprised on the depth of the author of how far back he went to talk about sourdough and then the evolution of bread in general from being something, and I think you've mentioned this before, something that everybody knew how to make.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.359
You had to know how to make it.
00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:36.079
People survived off of bread.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:38.719
That was their main source of food, right?
00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:39.280
Yeah.
00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:43.760
To then transitioning that into a more commercialized bread, right?
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:49.760
Something that was cheaper, that was easier, faster to make, less labor intensive, et cetera.
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.040
So that was really cool.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:02:00.239
But as part of that, in our last, who knows if it was a rabbit hole or if it was just the extended cut of one of our conversations, but you and I talked about starter.
00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.640
And that book had a recipe on how to create your own starter.
00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:06.560
And so I did that.
00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:11.360
As you know, I am not a sourdough baker.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:21.039
So this was the first, not the first time that I've dealt with starter before, because I think I've in your classes, I received starter from you that I ended up having to feed.
00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:22.960
But I didn't ever create it myself.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.120
Maybe I had, maybe I hadn't, I don't remember.
00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:34.080
But anyway, I started that, and that was a very interesting experiment for me to do from start to end, taking the instructions directly from the book.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:35.280
Okay, cool.
00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:40.000
So right now we have Sourdough Culture as our book club book.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:50.000
I know a lot of listeners are reading it, and Eric, I have an interview with him coming up on Wednesday, so it'll probably come out in about a month.
00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:56.719
And like you said, there's an instructional page on how to make your own starter.
00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:58.319
And so you went ahead and you did that.
00:02:58.479 --> 00:02:59.840
So let's hear about it.
00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:08.960
Yeah, so you and I had talked beforehand about me creating a starter and making it be uh whatever's available to everybody, right?
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:14.240
So not everybody necessarily has freshly milled flour or whole grain flour.
00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:22.000
So what I ended up using was just basic King Arthur bread flour for 50%, and then the other 50% was all-purpose white flour.
00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:34.639
So that's what I added into like what he has you do, and I might have to look in the book to look at the instructions exactly, but it's 50% one flour, 50% the other flour, right?
00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:45.039
So I did 50% white and 50% bread flour, and I put that in with the water that was directed, and then it asked me to mix with my fingers.
00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:46.479
So with your fingers?
00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:49.520
I'm yes, it said to mix with my fingers.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:55.039
Yeah, I assume that's again to cultivate additional yeast, right?
00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:57.280
Or to get that moving along.
00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:11.520
I used a clean new glass, not new, but a clean glass jar, put everything in there, and then it had me put a paper towel or, you know, a I did a paper towel for that one versus like a cheesecloth or something like that.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:11.840
Yeah.
00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:26.160
But anyway, paper towel with a rubber band on the top of it, and I left that for the time frame that it asked me to before I had to remove like 80% of it and then continue to feed it in that cycle.
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:28.399
In the first four days, you did that.
00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:30.879
Is it once every single day?
00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:32.160
I might have to look.
00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:42.639
And so, anyway, the the first day it was just kind of hanging out, and it built up over that time frame that you do that for the beginning again four days.
00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:49.680
And it definitely started to obviously create yeast and created the bubbles and started to smell funky.
00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.360
Like it was uh funky define funky, please.
00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.279
I want to know everything about this.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.600
Define funky, we need to know.
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.720
This little gem smelt a little cheesy, yeah.
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:04.800
She smelt cheesy, you know?
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:13.920
Um, like a ripe, delicious, maybe not delicious cheese, you know, like that you would maybe smell initially and think, ew.
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:15.680
But then when you take a cheaper, can I ask you?
00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:37.839
Can I ask you, did this interesting smell if you didn't know that was supposed to happen, or if you hadn't had this outline, would you have been like, oh no, I did something wrong, and then like throw it out, or were you expecting it to smell a little bit cheesy and then you just decided to power through?
00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:54.639
Because I have been cooking for a long time in general, like the fermentation process, it wouldn't surprise me that it smelled cheesy and that that was okay because there were no other signs of mold, which is different.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:06:13.759
It looked sure again, it looked like what you normally see for a starter, but there is an odor, and if you're not to your point aware of that odor, you could think that it has gone bad very quickly because it smells like again a a cheese or maybe sour milk, or you know what I mean?
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:18.319
Like it yeah, so yeah, you might think maybe not.
00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:26.560
It's good for the people to know because yeah, if they do this, they need to know that there is going to be a time of smells.
00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.639
Of smells, absolutely.
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:33.519
It was and it was I mean, it was a smell too that went into the kitchen.
00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.720
It wasn't just great in its own area, like you could smell it coming into the kitchen.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:45.439
She was like, I'm here, I'm fermenting, pay attention to me.
00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:53.199
Yes, and I will say that that was, you know, uh with the help of my fingers.
00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:55.839
Mixing the god.
00:06:57.600 --> 00:06:58.399
So anyway.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:06:59.279
Oh lord.
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.240
Day one, you put everything together.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:08.800
Um, again, you place the and I'm reading this from the book, you place the bowl in a warm location out of direct sunlight for three days.
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:13.439
Oh, I'm sorry, for three days until the bubbles form on the top of the mixture and it puffs.
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:14.560
So I did that.
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:20.319
Day three, you remove the covering, you discard about 80%, and then you begin to feed it.
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.839
And then you do that for four to ten days.
00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:37.279
Um, you do that same thing over and over again, and then mine started to actually rise and fall towards the end of that like actual 10 days.
00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:47.360
So, anyway, he does mention that from day four to day 10, there will be bubbles of carbon monoxide visible through the throughout the starter on the surface and a black liquid called hooch.
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:49.040
I didn't really get hooch.
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:54.639
I think you came over and looked at it, and I did have a decent maybe water on the bottom.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:01.120
So that was the one thing that you suggested is like you can also mix it if you see that water, but that was the only thing.
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:10.319
I actually didn't get hooch on mine until I fermented it or I put it into the fridge to then sit while we went on a trip.
00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:12.639
And then I came home and there is hooch on it.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:13.600
Cool.
00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:16.959
Um, great job, great follow-through.
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:26.000
I'm very impressed by you because I would like to tell you about my experience trying to make a starter, which was completely the opposite of your experience because I gave up.
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:35.039
So, first of all, thank you for doing that, and I'm really excited to talk to Eric about that when he's on because that'll be a fun, a fun topic.
00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:46.879
But I, my job that I was given that I did it, I didn't really do that well of was to make a starter with pineapple juice because that is trending right now.
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:52.879
People are making, and please forgive me, I am recovering from laryngitis, so my voice is holding on by a thread.
00:08:52.960 --> 00:09:05.759
The people who I have seen post about it most recently are a Catherine from Amore Fermentum and I hope I'm saying that right, and then Lila from the Early Rise.
00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:13.519
I know that Alex from Wild Woman has done it, and then they source like original sources, and I believe there's a woman named Paula.
00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.679
I can't remember her last name right now, uh, but I will look it up during our chat.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.559
It's Paula Pineapple Starter, I'm sure something will pop up.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:28.399
But anyway, um, so basically what you're supposed to do is instead of using water, you're supposed to use pineapple juice.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:34.320
So Catherine from Amore Fermentum on Instagram, she has a whole guide on it.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.799
So I followed her guide and I decided to make a starter that way.
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:45.759
Yeah, Catherine Shield, Amore Fermentum, and on the top of her highlights, she has a little highlight called pineapple starter.
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:52.480
So I followed that, and then I was thinking, you know, I can do that, but I don't have a control.
00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:59.039
So I did the pineapple starter and then I did a water starter side by side so I could compare them.
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:03.279
And I also took the pH of them just because I was interested.
00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:11.120
And I will say my one that was made with water had the same smells that yours had as well.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:12.639
It was unpleasant.
00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:17.759
It was like gym socks, and I was like, oh no.
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:29.919
And then the pineapple one never had a bad smell from day one, and I would say that the behavior of the two was very different as well.
00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.240
So I kind of wanted to go into that and talk about maybe the science behind that a little bit.
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:37.279
Is it did you find her on Instagram?
00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:45.919
So the original person that should be credited for the pineapple starter, her name is she is a baker and a microbiologist.
00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:52.559
Her name is Deborah Wink, and she used unsweetened pineapple juice instead of water for the first three days.
00:10:52.799 --> 00:11:02.000
On here, it says the juice lowers the pH, creating an acidic environment that suppresses foul-smelling bad bacteria while allowing good wild yeast to thrive.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:03.360
And so that was the difference.
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:09.600
So the pineapple one, because the pineapple is acidic, right?
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:17.279
The pineapple juice is literally acidic, you're already starting at a much lower pH than you would if you were just using water.
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:22.399
When you mix flour and water together, the pH tends to be around 5.6 at the beginning.
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.279
And then as fermentation goes along, it tends to drop.
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:26.960
But this is making a starter from scratch.
00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:31.440
So the pH is likely going to be somewhere between 5.5 and 6.0.
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:37.919
When you have pineapple juice and you mix it with flour, the pH is much lower, like 4.5.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:53.120
So by lowering the pH, you are not allowing the foul-smelling bacteria that are naturally in the flower to reproduce, grow, make these smells.
00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.200
You've you're suppressing them.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.200
And so I would argue that the two starters aren't really that much different.
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.159
You're just suppressing the activity of some of the bacteria.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:09.600
Whereas the one that I mixed with the flour and water, what happened was I got, and you probably did too, I got a false rise.
00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:14.480
So in the first like 24, 48 hours, it grew a lot.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:23.120
And um, that happened because those bacteria that live at a higher pH were thriving and they were creating gases and they were growing.
00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:31.440
But eventually, once the pH starts to lower as the starter becomes more mature, those bacteria will no longer be able to survive.
00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:39.120
And so the true bacteria of a sourdough, starter sourdough culture, they live at a lower pH.
00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:55.759
And so those are the ones that will begin to thrive and multiply, but you have to kind of like kill off and suppress them, or I guess suppress is a better term, suppress them over time in the water one versus the pineapple one is immediate because the pH is already lower because of the acidic pineapple juice.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:56.480
Does that make sense?
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.480
Am I saying that in a way that makes sense?
00:12:58.799 --> 00:12:59.840
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:00.799
It does make sense.
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:09.120
Um, I mean, I have some follow-up questions for that, as I mean, I guess my question is does it matter?
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:14.879
I mean, it was a much more pleasant experience, and I am not the person who came up with this.
00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:16.639
I am not a person who's done it many times.
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.080
I'm just a gal who tried it one time and I have my own opinions.
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:32.320
If you if anyone wants to really deep dive, I would go to the original source and check out um Deborah Wink or check out um Catherine's page because those people have really spent a lot more time and care on it.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:40.960
From my perspective, I would say it was a more pleasant experience using the pineapple juice, just because I didn't have to deal with the smells that you're talking about.
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.120
And in the end, they were both very similar.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:51.600
I will also say on day four, I was like, I'm over this, I'm wasting so much flour, like feeding these little starters, and I'm a busy girl and I don't have time.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.919
So I I would just prefer to like get a starter from someone that I know and trust.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:09.039
But if you, if you listeners out there are like really committed, like and well behaved like Leah, and do the job, do it from scratch because it I'm sure it's like a fun way to learn something new.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:15.679
Um but I will say those first three days with the pineapple were much better smelling.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:17.360
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:19.440
I mean, it it makes sense.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:30.799
I guess another question that I have, right, is as you try to suppress the the bad bacteria or the other bacteria to get to the good bacteria.
00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.080
Is there a difference in time then?
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:37.919
Like for the the regular flour and water?
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:38.559
I I don't know.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:39.440
Like, is that why you try to do that?
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:45.440
On days on Catherine's page, she said that she's able to get it up to strength in four.
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:54.559
And I know that she's using a really high protein strong white flour when she makes hers, and she even baked a loaf of bread, I think, on day four, if I'm not mistaken.
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.279
Okay.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:03.519
Um, both of us used some with whole wheat flour, so that could be more active and and behave differently.
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:11.679
Um I will also say that people had a lot of feelings about it that they they needed to express, which I totally appreciate.
00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.720
Um, some people did not like the pineapple starter idea.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:21.679
Catherine reached out to me and said that she's also had people who are very upset by it.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:29.679
I'm not sure what this like pineapple juice is um provoking in people, but they don't polarizing, huh?
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:30.879
It's polarizing.
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.799
It is you're either team pineapple or team water, apparently.
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.240
I'm neutral.
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:42.320
I I will say that the pineapple will smelt better, so that was nice, but I have no skin in the game.
00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.679
Yeah, I don't know if it would make a difference to me.
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.679
I think the only difference that would matter to me is is it more or less complicated?
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:59.200
Even the smell, I mean, I but I cook, I I I eat different kinds of foods, I have kimchi in my fridge.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.840
Like that, those things are all like not really that big of a deal to me personally.
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:04.320
Yeah.
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:12.639
But if you personally didn't like those kinds of smells and they bothered you, then I yeah, then that would be a recommendation if they're one for one.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:18.080
I am really team um will it bread.
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.720
Meaning I don't think anything is better than another.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:27.120
I don't think it's ever a good idea to say this is the only way.
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.759
And it's just a different way.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:43.440
And uh both Catherine and um Lila, when they post about it, they just present it as like this is an option, it's not mandatory, uh, which I love because it just it's just an invitation to try something new and something different.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:48.000
Um I tried it, uh and that's it.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.279
That's all I have to say about it.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:51.200
You tried it, you did a good job.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.039
And I think our listeners can try it too if they want.
00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:10.319
Yeah, and I I would definitely recommend trying to find somebody who understands this well enough to get those sources and trusted sources because there is a lot of information out there, and I don't think all of it is correct.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:19.119
And I say that, and so if you just Google something, it might not be the best idea to to dive down that you know, Reddit rabbit hole.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:21.279
Rabbit hole, pun intended.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:35.599
Um, but but try to understand like we have the resources here, or reach out to somebody or make sure that they have the the knowledge that backs what they're recommending for you to do or in the instructions that they're providing.
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:42.000
I've never made a post about making your own sourdough starter because I don't know that much about it, and I'm not gonna pretend like I do.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:48.240
Okay, so we went to South Lake Tahoe together for 4th of July for my birthday.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:49.440
It was a good time.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:50.400
It was super fun.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:50.799
It wasn't.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:52.880
Went down the Truckee River.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:53.599
Yes.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.599
We swam.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:57.680
We ate cake.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:59.599
Shout out, Love Yvonne.
00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.759
Oh, what a fantastic guava cake that was, and just beautiful.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:04.240
Absolutely.
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.960
Leah ordered me, yes, Leah ordered me, I'll post a picture of it on the in the stories.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:16.799
It's she ordered me this amazing guava cake from a local baker, Love Yvonne, and it was one of the best cakes I've ever had.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.079
And Leah put these little babies on top.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.680
What are what are those called?
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:26.160
The um the little naked babies.
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:27.599
Oh, it's sunny.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:28.720
Yeah, sunny.
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:29.359
That's right.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:30.400
The sunny babies.
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:35.839
Um, yes, we did that for cake decorations.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:36.319
Yeah.
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:50.799
Uh although Love Yvonne has a beautiful cake decoration, but you know, we had to have two big numbers of the candles and two big babies of dress as a plant and an animal, obviously.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:51.599
100%.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:56.319
Um, yeah, I will definitely post that because it was it was great and it was really good.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.000
And we ate it for like three days.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:18:59.039
It's fantastic.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:07.119
Okay, so our in addition to eating cake, we also went to my friend's bakery up in Reno.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.599
So we'd spent a day up in Reno and we checked out some local thrift shops.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:16.960
Um, and we stopped at Beloved's Bakery and Cafe.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:17.920
That's correct.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:27.200
So the the address is 229 East Plum Lane, and it's unit number 129, and that's in Reno, Nevada.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:33.119
And this bakery was created by Zach Condren.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.599
I hope that's I'm I hope I'm saying your last name right, Zach.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.599
If not, text me and I'm so sorry.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:51.440
Um, I met Zach at a class that I took with Grayson Gill a few years ago, and we didn't get to chat that much in class, but yeah, I had had a couple of people recommend his bakery to me, so we decided to go check it out.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:56.400
So why don't you tell our listeners like some of the things that we tried and what we really liked?
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:57.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:02.640
So, for folks who don't know, I lived in Reno for around 12 years.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:10.720
So back in the day, 12 years ago, and to be fair, I haven't been there for another 10 years, so it's been a little bit of time.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:17.440
Uh, but back in the day, there weren't necessarily a lot of great bakeries for fresh food.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.680
Reno is a bit of, um, I think Zach also mentioned it, right?
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.799
It's a bit of a food desert, right?
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.279
It's just difficult to get fresh food in there.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:32.079
Um, I think the culture is changing to get more fresh locally produced food as well.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:39.920
But a lot of that before was not really that fresh, not that local, a lot of chain restaurants, a lot of casino food, you know, things like that.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.759
So it was really, really nice to see a bakery like this in Reno, me coming back into Reno.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.119
It's actually a pretty cool section.
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:54.559
It looks like they have attached to it a building with a thrift shop, which is junkie.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.000
That was around when I was around.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:03.920
And then it looks like they're doing some other things in there, maybe for some more local, um, maybe food, but maybe just local stores, et cetera.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.119
So that was awesome.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:06.720
But yeah, we got there.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.039
There was already a line out the door.
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:16.799
They had tables outside, they had tables inside, and we tried a lot of their pastries.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.240
Considering we're traveling, most of the time we end up ordering things that are smaller, easier for us to eat.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.640
So a very large selection of things that they had.
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.359
Uh, but and savory and sweet.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.440
So that was really nice because we a lot of times default to savory.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.640
So they had some beautiful biales with cheese and onions, poppy seeds on the outside of them.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:43.039
Uh, we didn't order the sandwiches, but they had sandwiches there that were next.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.920
Um, and then we started getting into the pastries, right?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.799
And so we did order a chocolate croissant.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.799
We ordered a morning bun.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.640
We had a hazelnut chocolate.
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.759
It wasn't a croissant, but it was a laminated dough that was folded over again flat.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:01.680
Really good.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:08.559
And we ended up getting a pretzel as well, along with a sourdough bittard, because it was a smaller thing for us.
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.400
Because again, we're traveling.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.200
And then two cappuccinos.
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.039
And then we had the strawberry little popover.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:15.359
Yeah.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:16.880
Which looked like a cupcake.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:17.119
Yeah.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:17.359
Yep.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:23.200
The strawberry with the rosewater cream, and it looked like a little cupcake, a laminated little cupcake.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.920
And so I think that was the variety that we had.
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:27.359
A couple of savory items.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.319
Again, we weren't trying to get sandwiches, but we did get the pretzel.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:35.839
We got a sourdough petard, um, the biali, and then the rest were the sweet pastries.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.200
I regret not getting a sandwich because they look really, really good.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.559
And they looked incredible.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:41.920
Zach was really sweet.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:52.559
I wasn't expecting it, but he sat down and chatted for about 20 minutes and just caught up and was telling me a little bit more about some of their plans that they have for the facility.
00:22:52.880 --> 00:23:15.519
And I believe they are trying to and kind of in the works of getting a grain mill there and starting to produce some of their own flour on site, which is actually incredible considering what you said at the beginning, which is Reno is kind of um bit not been known to have a lot of those types of things currently.
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:20.400
So um it's really cool, and I'm excited to see what they do with that.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:26.640
So we chit chatted a little bit about using freshly milled high extraction flour.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:36.319
Um like I said, he took Grayson's class with me, so he's more than more than equipped to to work with that, but it was just a fun conversation to have.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.079
Yeah, I think that's awesome.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:44.000
And anybody who is going to Reno, I don't know how many listeners are going to Reno, but they also had regular food.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:50.880
We didn't, again, we were not able to try that at the time, but they had a whole regular breakfast menu, and it was really big.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:58.400
So you could go in there, you could sit down, you could sit outside, there was plenty of space, so it wasn't a very small bakery where you're just grabbing stuff to go.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:23:58.720
Sure.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:07.599
You could grab pastries, bread, they had a lot of different bread varieties as well, and you could grab a breakfast if you wanted to to support them in that way as well.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:08.880
Cool.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.599
And our last topic for today is going to be something that we got into hard in Tahoe.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.559
I can't even remember how this conversation started, but really got me going.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:25.119
That is true.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:26.960
And we wish we were mic'd, folks.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:27.680
Sorry about that.
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:28.799
We had no excuse.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:34.160
I had my wireless mics, but it was like once we realized the conversation was incredible, it was too late.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.960
We're like, well, we've already been chatting about this for like half an hour.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.160
But we were talking about inclusions in bread.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:50.160
So if you don't know what an inclusion is, an inclusion is something that goes in the bread that's not like water, flour, salt starter.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:03.359
So an example would be like if you buy a bread and it has olives in it, or um cranberry walnut, or jalapeno cheddar, or like these things that people put inside of the dough.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.920
And then yeah, that's called an inclusion.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.440
That's the term for it.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.079
And um, I personally don't use inclusions.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:26.400
Um, if I do, it's very rarely I do a garlic one because of of course we're living out in near Gilroy, so garlic grows everywhere here, so it feels like a it makes sense for the space.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.480
I'll do like a turmeric leek loaf from Sarah Owens.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.119
Um every once in a while I might do one that has cheese and green onion depending on the time of year and the seasonality.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.880
But for the most part, I would say that I let the wheat speak for itself.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:50.319
I put all this time and effort and training into using local flour and different types of grain.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.079
Like I want you to be able to taste those things.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.480
I don't want to cover them up with other flavors.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:59.599
That's just what works for me and um my identity as a baker.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.599
But like, let's get into this a little bit because we had a great chat about it.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:14.160
Yeah, so I think you and I talked about that because a lot of bakeries that I end up going to, or I think that you and I even see everywhere.
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:19.519
Like it's not just Reno, it's not just the Bay Area, it's everywhere, right?
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:25.440
A lot of bakeries that you go to end up having these loaves with a lot of inclusions in them.
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.839
They maybe have half of their loaves that are rotating inclusions.
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.240
And then yeah, what does that mean for the bread?
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:36.400
Are you just trying to do flavorful bread right through inclusions?
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:41.359
Or do you have really great bread that stands alone and you do that commercially, right?
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.359
Because again, to me, it's also a commercial thing.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:59.920
These are very large bakeries in most cases or larger bakeries, but even small people too, where a lot of times to get people in the door, it's easy for them to say, like, I would love that walnut cranberry bread because I love walnuts and cranberries in my bread.
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.039
And that gets them to do their first purchase, right?
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:03.599
Of course.
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:14.160
But yeah, you know, I think heavily relying on inclusions is unfortunate because that's all you're you're tasting and seeing as part of the bread.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:15.200
I agree.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:29.519
And this is not to speak poorly of any baker out there who's like just trying to get bread out because everyone does it differently, everyone has a different story, everyone's about something different, and like we love that.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:31.599
We love to see what everyone is doing.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:40.480
But it was an interesting conversation and one that I think was really respectful of, well, what is the story, right?
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:51.920
Because if we're telling a story with our loaves to our customers, exactly to your point, is the inclusion something local and from the area that you're in?
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:53.680
Does it represent your culture?
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.640
Does it represent a memory from your childhood?
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.640
Does it represent your mom's favorite dish?
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:01.200
I don't know.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.400
Maybe it does.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:14.400
And what a wonderful way to tell more about yourself to your customers by having inclusions that speak to your story.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.519
So when I well, I'll give you two examples.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.599
I think ones that we were talking about.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:26.240
One was um I feel like poor Grayson, he's probably like, Do you need to talk about me on every episode?
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:27.279
But yes, I do.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.319
You're amazing, and we all love you.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:43.119
Um, he was recently in Japan teaching a class, and I was really curious because I've taken a few classes with him and I've spent time with him now, and he does utilize inclusions, and he's very respectful when he does.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.400
I was like, What is he gonna do?
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.000
I was so curious to see.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:58.319
And I'd have to go back and look specifically, but I'm almost positive that he got some local rice and then maybe made a porridge or toasted it or something like that.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:19.599
And then he also got some local seaweed that someone was drying and put that into some of the bread, and it was just so thoughtful and was so beautiful, and it it just watching him work with the other bakers in the area and celebrating these ingredients and putting them thoughtfully into the bread, it was it made me emotional to see it because I I was so inspired by it.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:30.559
Um so that's just like one small example, and then another thing that I usually bring up in my classes is the jalapeno cheddar breads, which is what we talked about.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:38.240
Jalapeno cheddar, and I used to make them too when I first started, because as you said, sometimes you just need to get people in the door and people like it.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:47.680
I'm not saying like abandon the jalapeno cheddar loaf, but what I am saying is is there a way to make it more interesting?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:49.839
Are you pickling the jalapenos?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:57.119
Are you buying them from someone who grows them and pickles them and being able to support a local farmer who's growing peppers in your community?
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.480
Being able to support someone who specializes in pickling?
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.640
Maybe there's a local farm and they're making a smoked cheese, right?
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:09.920
Or they're they're having pasture cows and they do something interesting, right?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:23.039
Are there ways that we can continue to not only tell our story, but highlight the other people doing the work in our area through our loaf and have it be like a love letter from our community?
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.960
I think that is really an interesting path to go down.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:36.559
And can you kind of give your perspective to us as because I know you're not you're not really like a sourdough baker, but you're definitely a consumer and a customer, and I'd just love to hear what you think about it.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:44.640
Yeah, so I think what I gravitate towards now is something and we've had this conversation as I break open bread.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.440
So again, I am not a bread maker.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.799
I have not taken a single one of Allie's bread classes.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:53.599
I have taken her other classes for other things, right?
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.000
But not a sourdough bread class.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:08.079
But now with the education, obviously being friends with Allie, but you know, seeing her Instagram, looking at other people's pages through this journey, and also just eating the bread, right?
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.920
It's so interesting to me now that I can cut open a loaf of bread and immediately go, mm, it's not it.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.319
Or I open it up and I taste it and I go, there's nothing here for flavor.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:28.720
And so I think for me as a more educated consumer now, is if if I want to see inclusions, I want to see inclusions that are yeah, more interesting.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.720
Like, what are you doing that is different from the jalapeno cheddar?
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.279
And then, like, how are you presenting that to me?
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.440
Is it like you said, is it your own homemade pickled jalapenos or is somebody else doing that?
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.839
Is a different cheese than just the cheddar cheese that you bought from Kraft that you're throwing in there?
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:49.440
And again, I it's not a shame on anybody who does that regularly.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.759
I totally understand and I totally get it.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:32:11.119
But me as an evolving consumer of bread, of bread that is of a much higher quality than I would get now at Whole Foods or anywhere else, I want to see something that is really delicious, but also not the same thing that I'm going to get from Safeway.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:13.279
I want it to be interesting.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:19.440
I want it to taste different, and I want the bread to shine alongside the inclusions.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:24.559
I want them to be a relationship that I get to enjoy both, not one or the other.
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.720
Yeah, and I think that's really thoughtful and I think that's really fair.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.240
And don't get me wrong.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.319
I mean, I get asked about jalapeno cheddarloaves all the time.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.319
I could make them and they would sell like hotcakes, and that's awesome.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:42.640
I mean, truly, it's like I know that people like them and I can make them.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.720
It there's no issue with me.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.599
I can easily I think for ease, what people do is they make one mother dough.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:33:00.720
Although this is kind of a misuse of that term in my opinion, but they make one big dough and they break it up into several different bins and they put different inclusions in each bin, and like for ease and for production, like, yeah, go off.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:12.480
Um but I I guess I like the challenge of how can I how can I make this a little bit more unique?
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:23.039
Because a question that I get often is well, I've got six other bakers in town, and I've got two other bakers at the farmer's market, and we're all making, you know, country dough.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:24.400
Like we're all making country loaves.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:26.640
Like, how do I differentiate myself?
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:40.240
That's how you find that special, that special jalapeno, that special cheddar, and you put it in your loaf because then it's gonna be different than the person who's doing the jalapeno cheddar loaves down the street.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:46.160
And truly, I think a lot of people are coming to this space to learn how to work with more fresh flour.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:52.400
And if you're going through the effort to do that, why hide the flavor behind anything else?
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.400
And, you know, maybe have both.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:02.559
Have a local whole wheat loaf and then, you know, keep the jalapeno cheddar, but consider having different options for different customers.
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:03.920
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.680
And you and I talked about that, right?
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.760
Again, there is a commercial aspect to it to you needing to sell bread, right?
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:10.800
That's what you're doing.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.079
You want to sell out, you want no extras, right?
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:15.199
You don't want any loss.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.559
So I completely get it that there is a commercial aspect to it of this is what the consumers want.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:25.920
But yeah, I agree that I think it can be more thoughtful in the way that that happens.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:33.199
And I think those people eventually will see the bread for what it is, and then maybe not rely on inclusions anymore.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.639
I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:41.840
Sometimes I I do buy bread with inclusions here and there, just depending on you know what I'm pick up in the market or whatever.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:48.880
And then sometimes I feel like, oh, I can't make I can't put peanut butter on it for my daughter because it's got green onions in it.
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.960
Yeah, you know, or it's olives.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.199
Yeah, or it's like I got this something else and now it doesn't go with me or whatever.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.760
So sometimes that can be a challenge.
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.360
And then so if it's just the plain loaf, you can just use it for whatever.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:08.000
But yeah, I I think it would, it's a call to action to not make any changes to what you're doing now.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:12.719
Like go hard, sell those loaves, sell the inclusions, like make your money.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:31.440
But in the background, maybe it there is something that you're thinking of right now, and it's sparking an idea of like, oh, I forgot there's someone down the street who makes sun-dried tomatoes, or I forgot that there was a farmer selling local pecans that I could roast and put in my bread.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:44.639
Like, start to think in that way, and I think you'll be surprised at how much more connected you feel with your product and with your customers and your community if you open up your mind to um different ideas about inclusions.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:45.920
Yeah, that's it.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.760
That was the inclusion conversation.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:57.280
It was very interesting, it was a very natural conversation when we were together, and I appreciate the I think the balance perspective between the two of us.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:59.039
I mean, we are pretty cool.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:00.559
The coolest.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:09.119
And we've had we've I don't think that the you know, not everyone's gonna listen to the rabbit hole episodes, and that's fine.
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:17.920
I'm a person that likes to consume content of people just chit-chatting, especially when on my bake days, like I listen to different podcasts of people just having conversations with each other.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.440
It helps me, you know, sort out my thoughts and be inspired.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:31.360
And so the people who have listened to our rabbit hole episodes and the two of us chatting, they really love having you on the podcast and they love hearing your voice.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.880
And um, so I think it's just like a fun thing to offer for everyone who wants a little extra.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:48.320
And Leah is um just the voice of reason and committed and has great ideas, and it does a good job also representing like the new baker, right?
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.320
Because that's an important voice to have.
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:51.280
Absolutely.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:37:02.000
As we continue on, I will try, folks, I promise, to bake with Ali a little bit more and provide that feedback loop back to people here because I do think it's important.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.159
Um, I am, to be completely honest, absolutely terrified of sourdough.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:15.679
So I think it would be great for other listeners to figure out that balance and to understand the struggle from a beginner baker.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.719
Um so I hope I can provide that.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:22.239
I have the perfect podcast for you.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.079
Oh my gosh, really?
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.079
It's called Saving Bread.
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:30.000
They're for you.
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.199
Yeah, you're gonna leave it.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:32.960
I know.
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:46.639
So yeah, um, hopefully I can bring those experiences, experiences along with Allie and I just having great conversations about bread and where we go and where we eat and what we do, all the things.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:55.039
All right, well, that's it for this rabbit hole episode, and we we've got the interview with Eric coming up, so that'll be exciting.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.320
Very exciting.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:57.599
Um, great book.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.760
So hopefully everybody finished up.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.960
I know a lot of people are reading it, so it's pretty cool.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:04.239
And that was all you agree.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:05.760
That was all Leah.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.440
She thought of the book club.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:08.880
She is so smart.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:09.599
That's true.
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:11.840
Looks and brains on this girl.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.920
All right, I'm gonna stop the recording for us.
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:14.800
No, keep going.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.559
Do we need recommendations of new books?
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:17.519
I got a few.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:17.920
Cool.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.360
Got a few came in.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:19.840
Yeah.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:20.559
Cool.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.039
All right, until next time.
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:24.000
Bye.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:25.280
Bye.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.079
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.079
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:41.840
I'm Allie White.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.920
And as always, happy baking and long live real bread.
