WEBVTT
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[electronic music starts]
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Welcome to the Riveo Impact Lab, the podcast in which we explore what it means for small businesses to have real impact in an evolving world.
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On this podcast, we engage our curiosity around topics like sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and the ethical outcomes of our decisions, all from a small business perspective.
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I'm Elin and this is my co-host, Emily.
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At Riveo Creative, we've been talking a lot about accessibility in the past year.
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Inclusivity has always been one of our core values.
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And yet, as we began to look more into accessibility, we realized just how little we actually knew.
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That's why we quickly gathered a support team of people who are experts regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion, and formed our Diversity Advisory Board.
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One of those experts is Amy Graves, who we speak to on this episode of the Riveo Impact Lab.
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Amy is a web analytics expert, the Director of Accessibility for the National Association of Women Business Owners, or NAWBO, California, Chapter President of the NAWBO Inland Empire, founder and CEO of Hidden Consumer Consulting, and author of The Hidden Consumer.
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Amy has been working with the Riveo Creative team for the past five years, and we trust her with all things related to SEO.
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In this episode, however, Amy offers insight into what it means to foster a workplace culture that is inclusive and accessible, as well as the small steps any business can take to make this happen.
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Please enjoy our lovely conversation with Amy Graves.
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[electronic music concludes] Amy, hey.
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Nice to see you.
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Nice to see you too.
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I'm so excited.
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I know. I'm excited to talk with you today.
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We have this podcast, and it's all about impact.
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And, in thinking about who we wanted to bring on as guests, you were top of the list.
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Aw, thank you.
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So let's just start talking a little bit about you and how you got on this whole entrepreneurial journey in the first place.
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I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, like, 20 years ago when I was working in retail, and I was doing some really amazing things, turning stores around.
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And I didn't like the retail aspect of always having to work on the sales floor with the clients.
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[Laughs] But I did some really good work understanding numbers and human behavior, and I wanted to try and apply that to my own business.
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But it took me 20 years.
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We moved to California and I couldn't find employment.
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Every time I went in for a job interview, it was something about my crutches, because I'm disabled, and people were refusing to hire me.
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So I'm like, “Well, if I'm going to start up my own company, now's the time.” So I did.
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So it became more of, I needed to do this, is why I started my entrepreneurial journey, so I can make money.
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[Laughs]
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But, Amy, they weren't hiring you because of your crutches?
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That seems...
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Illegal?
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Yeah, illegal and antiquated.
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And what the heck?
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[Laughs] Yeah.
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How was this happening?
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So there's a law in California that allows companies to work— there's a loophole in this law that allows companies to at least say they're not going to hire you, because their risk management board feels you're a threat to the safety of employees around you.
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So because I use crutches, the “threat” is that people could trip over my crutches.
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So I am a risk to the company.
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Okay, I got a lot of problems with that, but we're going to move on.
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We're going to move on because you did, you, you, you know, took that situation.
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You started a business.
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It's led you on this, like, really interesting journey.
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Do you want to just talk briefly about your business and what it is that you actually do?
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Your core business.
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We're going to get into the new thing later.
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Okay, the new thing later.
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Okay, so.
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Yeah.
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That journey itself is also hilarious.
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I started March, I opened March 3rd, 2020.
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[Amy and Elin Laugh] Was perfect timing.
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Perfect timing.
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It couldn't be better. [Laughs]
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Couldn’t be better.
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I wanted to be, basically, I'm a certified business analyst, so I wanted to be the business analyst that helped companies figure out what's going on inside your company that's causing you not to grow, and, by going through data and talking about marketing strategies and really determining what your next step is.
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And covid hit 11 days later and nobody wanted that.
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Like I got nothing.
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It just died.
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So I looked at what, using my business analyst skills, what is the one problem everybody's having because we're all virtual?
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And it came down to your websites.
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So I jumped into working on websites and because I need data, I jumped in using Google Analytics right away.
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Started with Universal, wasn't really happy with the data feed.
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And then they launched Google Analytics 4.
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So I jumped on Google Analytics 4, December 2020, and I've been using it ever since.
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But it's because of that data I've been able to use my business analyst experience, my previous retail experience, and I help people understand how websites are the foundation of your digital marketing experience and if your website doesn't create value and engagement with your ideal client, you're never going to get your website to work for you.
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So that's what I do today is how do we make those websites be so valuable that people spend time, that they want to work with you, and it leads to conversion?
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Yeah.
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And we could spend our whole time talking about that and Google Analytics 4.
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We're not going to do that. [Laughs] We're not going to do that...
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[Laughs]
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...because we're only here to talk about impact.
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First I want to just like bring up the NAWBO, the National Association of Women Business Owners.
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You got involved with them as a business owner, and now you're the Director of Accessibility for, is it for California?
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Yeah. Yep.
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Okay. Okay.
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So you're, you're, you're the Director of Accessibility for NAWBO for California.
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You're a member of our Diversity Advisory Board.
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So I want to, you know, obviously, this is important to you and you've already shared discrimination you've experienced.
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But beyond that, why is accessibility so important to small businesses and business owners?
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Why should it be so important?
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Let me rephrase the question. [Laughs]
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It absolutely should be.
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A lot of what I want to do is turn the, the scenario around, too.
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So there's going to be a couple thoughts here coming out, but.
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Before I became disabled because I haven't been disabled my entire life, you know, you would, I would hear family and friends talk about “those stupid disabled people.
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They're shutting down businesses just because they don't have access.
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They're deliberately looking for people and suing them just to shut down the small businesses.” Like that's not the case.
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If you flip that scenario around, my question back is, why do disabled people not have a right to do business with you?
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So accessibility isn't—I mean, ADA laws are the basement level of inclusion and it's not an inclusion.
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I mean, ADA is, this is the bare minimum you need to do to not get sued.
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If you can't hit the bare minimum, maybe you need to rethink about how you do business and if maybe you have to move it online, which then it's still a whole, whole set of issues because you still have to be ADA accessible online, which I do help people with somewhat on their websites.
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But it's this thing where why, as a disabled person, am I constantly being excluded?
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I got involved with NAWBO on the accessibility side because they weren't including people with disabilities, and that's where my fight with them right now is.
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And I'm going to call it a fight because it is.
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Inclusion is the ceiling.
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You should always reach for, “how high can I go?
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How many people can I bring in to be involved and be part of it?” Versus, “Oh, they're disabled.
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We've got ADA.
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I'm not going to worry about including them because if they can get in the door, who cares?” And that's what a majority of businesses and a majority of organizations consider accessibility.
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Just let them in the door.
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And most of the time, you still can't get in the door...
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[laughs]...or the door is like two miles away and you still have to walk an extra two miles.
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[Laughs]
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It's really crazy, thinking about all the, like, physical locations that are just not accessible.
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You know, it happens plenty in our own country, but I was traveling in Europe with cobblestone streets and really, super old buildings, steep stairs.
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And I understand that there are reasons that some of those buildings can't be modified and so on and so forth, but it's really a big deal, you know, that there's all these places that people with disabilities can't access.
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And it's not just physical, it's online too.
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It's, I was looking at a website the other day that, it just had so much going on.
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It's like animation, not just animation, but like, tons of different video, flash pop-up things.
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You know, all, so much happening.
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And I was like... [laughing]...I was thinking about you.
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And I thought, “Amy would hate this.”[Laughs]
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[Laughs]
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My own mom is losing her vision.
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So we're, we're all learning how to use screen readers and how to, like, help her navigate that.
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And I guess that's pretty common is like when it hits you personally, that's what you really understand.
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But can you explain a little bit about like, why something like that crazy website is really problematic and, and locks people out, locks a lot of people out.
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There's two big things about that, is when it comes to a website, the more animation, the more videos, the more movement, the more things, you just like, you threw the whole kitchen sink at one page, it's going to slow down your ability to load.
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So that means people on older technology are not going to be able to, to see your website.
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And my first question is, did you design the website for your ideal client, or did you design it because it's what you wanted and you had a fear of missing out?
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Most people design their websites based on FOMO and that kills your website hardcore.
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The other issue is, and I'm going to give you a personal experience here.
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I was working with a client and they rebuilt and they were so excited.
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They had this great new home page for their website, and they animated and created motion for every single text box and image on site.
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I literally got sick and had to shut down the website because I could not get through the first top half of the page because there was so much movement.
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So people with disabilities who are any, on different aspect of the spectrum, you get motion sickness, looking at a website like that, if you need to take drugs to look at a website, yeah, website probably needs to be taken down a notch. [Laughs]
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Yeah.
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It comes down to one simple thing, those kinds of things.
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It's not that you can't use them.
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You have to be strategic.
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Right? This was a PR company.
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We don't need to animate your headlines.
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We do need a headline and animate your images.
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We want people to stop and look at the images of what you've done for your previous clients, because your PR, it's about that visual experience.
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That's where the strategy comes in and where I would come in and also show you why the numbers show that's what you need to do.
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But yeah, it's, it's gross. I get so mad.
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[Laughs]
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Yeah, and unfortunately, I, I don't know, I'm not an expert in this area.
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You may have better insight, but it seems to me that probably still the majority of websites or, you know, maybe at least half, are just not very user friendly if you're using something like a screen reader, if you're, I don't know, colorblind or you have other issues.
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There's just a lot of un-optimal websites out there.
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Yeah. And I actually, I really blame that on traditional search engine optimization.
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Like, it's that, traditional SEO was all about dropping people on a website and not caring what the website, as long as they draw as many people as possible, they'll just get the numbers randomly.
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But that doesn't create a website that engages people, and that doesn't create a website where you actually have to put your focus on who you want to work with.
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So the websites, almost all websites today are based on the business owner and what they want to see on a website, which does nothing for your business and it does nothing for accessibility.
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If I, like, my website still has issues.
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I have a plug-in for ADA because I can't fix everything.
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But you know, I have problems with my colors.
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My colors are not color...
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are not colorblindness friendly.
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So I'm constantly trying to rework, how do I make this and just make this, like, an accent color so that it's not interfering with what people are reading and how they're engaging with the website?
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So it's, it's a constant, you have to constantly think about it from someone else's perspective, which as humans, that's not our priority, right?
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And that’s part of it. [Laughs]
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It's true, until it hits you directly, like with my mom or with you, you know, the issues that you've had to face.
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And so I think we're, you know, we're talking about two different things.
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Physical accessibility.
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Like, you're running into some issues with NAWBO, being able to get into certain buildings and, you know, other issues.
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And the digital accessibility.
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So just talking like in broad terms, let's say there's a business owner listening to this podcast and they say,“Oh, I would like to do better.” Where's a good place to start with either of those, you know, items?
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It can feel overwhelming because there's, there's a lot to think about.
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Yeah. I would say the first two things to do for your website is turn off all animations and get rid of the videos in your banner.
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Start there. Simple, easy.
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I know it's going to hurt.
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Everyone tells me, “But, but, but I love my videos.
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But, but, but.” It's okay.
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You can put them elsewhere.
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I'm not saying no, but if it's, especially on your homepage.
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Put your focus on your homepage.
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We'll leave everything else alone.
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But your homepage has to load quickly because the other pages will load while someone's on your homepage.
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But that homepage has to be snap of your fingers load, or you're going to lose everybody.
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The other thing is, I challenge you to go through read every word on your homepage in a monotone voice.
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Do you understand the sentences if you read it in a monotone voice and stop at the punctuation?
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So for instance, like your mom, you know, you're learning screen readers.
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The system is reading the page to you.
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There's no inflection of emotion, right?
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That, that period, you got to be clear, concise and have like under 20 words for a sentence for someone hearing your website to understand what you're trying to convey.
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So those are the two things to start with.
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Yeah.
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No, that's great advice.
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And I also would invite anybody to try to use one of those screen readers.
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You'll understand very quickly.
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[Laughs]
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Yeah. And we're going to get to this in a minute, talking about your initiative around hidden consumers, because this is not only the right thing to do, but it is a big audience that people are missing out on if they're not doing these things.
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But before we go there, I just want to ask you, and you may not have an answer for this; I don't know.
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But do you know of any new like, tech, technological innovations or anything that has come out recently or is coming out that's going to, be beneficial for improving accessibility?
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Actually, it's the one that everyone talks about.
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And it’s the thing I actually have the most distrust and dislike for right now.
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But from an accessibility standpoint, it's very important.
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And it's AI.
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I knew you were going to say that. [Laughs]
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[Laughs]
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AI, yes.
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Yeah, AI is not my favorite tool.
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As a tech person, I'm very concerned.
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I'm doing some different things in my company right now that I don't want AI to learn on my tech, and I don't want them to learn on what I'm doing, because I want to kind of keep what I'm doing to myself until I can really get it out there so people understand what I do.
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And AI, if they're learning on it, they're stealing it.
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Like that's just what it is.
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If you're using a free AI software, you're allowing AI to train on your, your intellectual property.
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So there's, there's this line.
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There's a line.
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I do use it in certain cases.
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But from, like, the, from a, from a person with a disability, AI is going to be beneficial because you can just feed it something and get that information back.
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It might, I mean, there's just, there's ways that tool is going to be beneficial for those who need additional help and support.
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I don't know I'll, I don't use it right now for that specific purpose.
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So I can't be really concise on what that looks like.
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But I know people in my Chronic Boss Collective group where AI is an important part of what they do today.
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Like they depend on that so heavily because it's an accessibility thing.
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But like all good things for, that end up coming out for people with accessibilities, someone's going to find another way to use it and it won't be as accessible. [Laughs] Like that's just how it works.
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[Laughs]
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Well, someone was talking about, it might have been you even.
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I can't remember who I was having this conversation with, but it was about how sometimes technology is developed not necessarily with the intention of helping with accessibility.
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Like Siri.
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And it ends up to be such a valuable tool in that community.
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It's sort of the best of both worlds because it benefits everybody.
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Smart technology, there's a lot of people in the background that, especially if you work in tech, smart technology is something to still be worried about and to really be cautious with using.
00:18:57.051 --> 00:19:16.654
But for someone with a disability, if you can't get out of bed and you can just tell your home system to turn the lights on, I mean, how amazing is that, that you've just gained a whole nother level of independence because you don't have to wait for someone to come home and flip a light on because you can't get up and do it yourself.
00:19:16.654 --> 00:19:18.781
That, I'm speaking from previous experience.
00:19:18.781 --> 00:19:27.499
Like when I went into paralysis in 2008, before, before we had the speech to text software on phones.
00:19:27.499 --> 00:19:32.587
Like Dragon software was top of the line, remember?
00:19:32.587 --> 00:19:35.339
I do actually, yeah. Yep
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:42.306
[Laughs] And to think, like, in less than 20 years, we've taken that technology.
00:19:42.306 --> 00:19:43.807
We can control our homes.
00:19:43.807 --> 00:19:59.030
So now, if I was at home paralyzed and not able to move sitting in the dark because my husband doesn't get home till midnight because of, he’s coaching basketball, I could have just said,“Alexa, turn on my lights.” I didn't have to sit in the dark. [Laughs]
00:19:59.030 --> 00:20:00.865
Right. Right.
00:20:00.865 --> 00:20:06.329
So, yeah, that's a great example of a technology though, that does exactly that.
00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:09.958
And it's very beneficial to those with disabilities.
00:20:09.958 --> 00:20:11.667
Yeah. No, that's a really good point.
00:20:11.667 --> 00:20:21.345
And I imagine that in the coming years, that's just going to evolve more and become more customized, I guess, to each person and what they need.
00:20:21.345 --> 00:20:29.685
I would say in the last five years, I don't, I don't think even the last ten years, but at least in the last five years, there's been more emphasis put on accessibility.
00:20:29.685 --> 00:20:37.611
You can do, go into Word and you can tell it what to type up for you and it will do your corrections.
00:20:37.611 --> 00:20:39.445
So you don't have to actually be typing.
00:20:39.445 --> 00:20:44.660
But even on your browsers, you have accessibility settings now.
00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:54.001
Like go to Chrome, go to whatever you use and you can turn on accessibility, so you can talk to your browser and it will pull up the website you're looking for.
00:20:54.001 --> 00:20:57.338
So yeah, there's, there's some great technology coming out.
00:20:57.338 --> 00:21:19.736
When we talk about impact, you know, this is one way that we're able to, I guess, make an impact is to reach, to make sure that our message is getting to a previously marginalized group of people, who were unable to receive it.
00:21:19.736 --> 00:21:30.705
And I do think that many of us have never really gave that a lot of thought, you know, realized how challenging it, it is to live with certain conditions.
00:21:30.705 --> 00:21:38.547
And, and now that there's maybe more awareness and there's more tools and, you know, we do have an ability to do more.
00:21:38.547 --> 00:21:46.971
At this point, I'm going to switch over and invite a conversation around the hidden consumers work that you're doing because this is, you know, talk about impact.
00:21:46.971 --> 00:21:49.182
This is really, really cool.
00:21:49.182 --> 00:22:03.571
Do you want to, do you want to talk a little bit more about some of your own challenges, like with food and that because I think that might lead well into this segment.
00:22:03.571 --> 00:22:06.490
Into the next conversation? Yes. [Laughs]
00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.368
[Laughs] So, as much as you want to share.
00:22:09.368 --> 00:22:11.913
You know, your story is interesting.
00:22:11.913 --> 00:22:32.683
And, I hope you're okay with me sharing this, but you have suspicion, you told me, that could possibly, you know, some of the pesticides you were exposed to as a child on commercial farms may have had a role to play in, in what you've been dealing with.
00:22:32.683 --> 00:22:34.560
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:38.940
So Hidden Consumers is something I always wanted to do when I opened my business.
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:43.362
I wanted to really work in the food industry based on my own experience.
00:22:43.362 --> 00:22:52.037
But I got started with it because I understood that, when it came to websites, we have so many hidden consumers for every industry that we don't realize.
00:22:52.037 --> 00:22:56.415
And, so Hidden Consumers slowly evolved out of that.
00:22:56.415 --> 00:23:07.969
And about two years ago, two years, almost three years ago now, I made the decision that I wanted to finally move my way into working with the food industry, specifically, because of my own background.
00:23:07.969 --> 00:23:19.689
Around the time I was dealing with paralysis and I had gone down, and then I developed a few other issues along the way, things started coming back that I was reacting to food, and at first we thought it was just wheat and soy.
00:23:19.689 --> 00:23:20.648
Well, wheat.
00:23:20.648 --> 00:23:22.317
So I did the whole gluten free thing.
00:23:22.317 --> 00:23:24.903
Got really sick. It wasn't the wheat.
00:23:24.903 --> 00:23:28.781
Then I'm like, “Oh, it's got to—” Then I started seeing a connection that soy was involved.
00:23:28.781 --> 00:23:32.618
So I'm like, “Okay, I'm gonna take out everything that’s soy.” Still got sick.
00:23:32.618 --> 00:23:34.413
Like it was wheat, soy. Like it helped.
00:23:34.413 --> 00:23:36.580
I got a little bit better, but I wasn't, I wasn't better.
00:23:36.580 --> 00:23:44.631
And I finally got to a point where, I had a sinus infection, and it lasted for three years.
00:23:44.631 --> 00:23:52.012
And I had to go in and have it surgically removed from—they, we, we had saw a spot.
00:23:52.012 --> 00:23:58.603
A hole had developed because I had been blowing my nose so much, I literally ripped part of the lining of my, my nasal cavity.
00:23:58.603 --> 00:24:00.855
So we had to go in and do some work.
00:24:00.855 --> 00:24:14.827
But the big thing that came out of it, he goes, when the doctor came out and he's like,“You need to understand that people who have an infection to the extent that you do, it's always connected back to food.
00:24:14.827 --> 00:24:19.915
You have to find out what you're allergic to.” And that began my process.
00:24:19.915 --> 00:24:21.917
That was 2013.
00:24:21.917 --> 00:24:28.383
2016, I figured out fully it was corn and all corn derivatives, and I'm super sensitive.
00:24:28.383 --> 00:24:32.596
So basically I'm allergic to life, because corn is used in everything.
00:24:32.596 --> 00:24:35.515
It's not just, you know, popcorn and corn on the cob.
00:24:35.515 --> 00:24:36.932
It's dextrose.
00:24:36.932 --> 00:24:39.810
It's polyester.
00:24:39.810 --> 00:24:41.145
It's nylon.
00:24:41.145 --> 00:24:44.648
It's like anything we use in life today.
00:24:44.648 --> 00:24:47.359
It's your—I had to gut my kitchen.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:52.615
Like my pans all had that, that nonstick coating which is made from corn starch.
00:24:52.615 --> 00:24:54.159
I had to go to all stainless.
00:24:54.159 --> 00:25:00.582
I mean, my food tastes way better today than it did six years ago... [Laughs]...ten years ago or whatever now.
00:25:00.582 --> 00:25:03.585
But yeah, it was, it became this whole process of.
00:25:03.585 --> 00:25:13.845
And then because of it, I had to understand how our food is actually made in a lab because I am so sensitive.
00:25:13.845 --> 00:25:20.143
If an ingredient is made in the lab and the base element is corn, I'm going to have a reaction to it.
00:25:20.143 --> 00:25:22.436
I'm like a parts per billion person.
00:25:22.436 --> 00:25:23.939
So I'm super rare and I get it.
00:25:23.939 --> 00:25:25.606
I'm super rare.
00:25:25.606 --> 00:25:28.276
And I thought it was only me.
00:25:28.276 --> 00:25:35.909
But the more I shared my journey as I was going on this because I shared everything like, “Can you believe that they put corn in this?
00:25:35.909 --> 00:25:39.703
Why is this made from corn?” Like I was telling the world and you know.
00:25:39.703 --> 00:25:43.040
People were like, “Amy, you need to write a book,” which I finally did, but we’ll get there. [Laughs]
00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:45.085
Okay, wait. Give us some example.
00:25:45.085 --> 00:25:50.673
What are some, what are some, what are some things that corn is present in that you wouldn't think?
00:25:50.673 --> 00:25:52.259
Socks. Socks.
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:53.218
What?
00:25:53.218 --> 00:25:54.051
You know.
00:25:54.051 --> 00:26:01.268
[Laughs] The elastic bands that you have in your—socks is like, because I had to throw away all my socks.
00:26:01.268 --> 00:26:04.395
But elastic bands are pretty much coated in corn starch.
00:26:04.395 --> 00:26:09.025
I would break out in hives wherever my socks touched my skin.
00:26:09.025 --> 00:26:09.984
Wow.
00:26:09.984 --> 00:26:16.031
I wore a nylon dress to a wedding, and I had hives and a rash whever the dress touched my skin.
00:26:16.031 --> 00:26:17.534
Oh my goodness.
00:26:17.534 --> 00:26:18.785
It was bad.
00:26:18.785 --> 00:26:22.872
So you can only wear cotton, like natural fibers, I assume?
00:26:22.872 --> 00:26:24.790
Natural fibers. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:24.790 --> 00:26:28.127
Or why, why is there corn starch in my sugar?
00:26:28.127 --> 00:26:30.212
Why is there corn starch in my salt?
00:26:30.212 --> 00:26:32.298
Like I can't use basic table salt.
00:26:32.298 --> 00:26:33.842
I can't use basic table sugar.
00:26:33.842 --> 00:26:42.933
I can't use anything like Sugar in the Raw or any of those sugars, because they're all involve corn starch, like it's, or, like it's all there.
00:26:42.933 --> 00:26:53.569
And it's legal to put it in there without saying it's in there because it's “not intended for digestion.” Like if it's in my food, I'm digesting it.
00:26:53.569 --> 00:26:58.325
I don't care what your intention is.
00:26:53.569 --> 00:27:00.660
[Laughs] But who knows that?
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:05.414
Like I didn't, until I had to dig into it and find out, why am I reacting to sugar?
00:27:05.414 --> 00:27:07.916
Why am I reacting to salt?
00:27:07.916 --> 00:27:11.128
Like it was a whole thing.
00:27:07.916 --> 00:27:11.128
I got so mad.
00:27:11.128 --> 00:27:12.797
[Laughs]
00:27:12.797 --> 00:27:16.343
That's, that's really, really interesting.
00:27:16.343 --> 00:27:22.641
So it, so this whole journey led you on this hidden consumers path.
00:27:22.641 --> 00:27:24.017
Path, yeah.
00:27:24.017 --> 00:27:28.438
So what I realized along the way is that I'm not the only one.
00:27:28.438 --> 00:27:41.742
And the more I talk about my story, the more people tell me, “You know, I know so-and-so” or “I'm in this boat too where I have to be really diligent, not to your level, but I have to be diligent too.” A majority of people are struggling with their food.
00:27:41.742 --> 00:27:46.538
They don't understand how their food has certain ingredients or why.
00:27:46.538 --> 00:28:11.522
So one of the things I, when I was researching my book, that I discovered is that the population of people who are between 30 and 40 years old right now have the highest level of kidney failure, linked back to our lab-created sugars that are in our energy drinks, our sodas, hidden sugars that are in “sugar-free” food.
00:28:11.522 --> 00:28:14.358
They're not really sugar free.
00:28:11.522 --> 00:28:14.358
I'm just going to tell you that right now.
00:28:14.358 --> 00:28:22.075
There's like 50 names for sugar that don't say “sugar.” As long as it doesn't say “sugar,” it's sugar free.
00:28:22.075 --> 00:28:30.083
Like the whole system is, is like, if you don't know how to shop for food and understand the ingredients, it, you're going to continue to get sick.
00:28:30.083 --> 00:28:31.000
That's just how it is.
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.589
But the number of people that like, are in kidney failure, though, are equivalent to the population of the state of New York.
00:28:37.589 --> 00:28:38.674
Wow.
00:28:38.674 --> 00:28:47.099
This is why we’re seeing so many dialysis centers popping up and people needing kidney transplants is becoming more and more common.
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:49.144
It's, it's linked back to our food.
00:28:49.144 --> 00:28:55.442
And there's peer-reviewed research, which is what I focus on for my book is—it's not going to be in the book.
00:28:55.442 --> 00:28:57.609
Just, just not going to scare people.
00:28:57.609 --> 00:29:01.489
[Laughs][Laughs] Well you were telling me you love research.
00:29:01.489 --> 00:29:02.740
You love doing research.
00:29:02.740 --> 00:29:04.909
I do. I have a, I'm a historian.
00:29:04.909 --> 00:29:08.371
Like I got my undergraduate degree in history, which is just research and analysis.
00:29:08.371 --> 00:29:13.710
So like I'm in my element if I could be in a library digging and yeah, that's, that's me.
00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:15.420
[Laughs]
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:27.432
So this book is, it is well researched, but presented in a, presented in a like, conversational, easy-to-understand way.
00:29:27.432 --> 00:29:32.186
And what will it help people do or understand?
00:29:32.186 --> 00:29:42.196
What it's really going to do is help, it's going to help businesses, especially in the food industry, understand how people are shopping for food differently today than they were a decade ago.
00:29:42.196 --> 00:29:50.246
Why the, why things have changed to such an extent, and why so many more people are health conscious?
00:29:50.246 --> 00:29:56.877
What is it about our health that's connected to food that we can't just go out and buy and eat whatever we want anymore?
00:29:56.877 --> 00:30:03.009
Not everyone is my sensitivity level, but almost everybody has something they have to avoid.
00:30:03.009 --> 00:30:05.636
I mean, we see the memes all the time.
00:30:05.636 --> 00:30:15.896
When I first figured out it was corn, I literally had a friend send me a meme saying, with the— have you seen, like, the plate of ice cubes saying, “It's the gluten free keto” whatever diet?
00:30:15.896 --> 00:30:17.315
And they sent it to me.
00:30:17.315 --> 00:30:19.526
And my first response is, “I'm allergic to that.
00:30:19.526 --> 00:30:21.277
Ice cubes are made in a plastic.
00:30:21.277 --> 00:30:24.489
I'm allergic to plastics because plastics are made from corn.
00:30:24.489 --> 00:30:28.951
I would have a reaction to a plate of ice cubes.” That's the thing is, we don't know.
00:30:28.951 --> 00:30:34.624
Like, we make fun of all these people who have to take keto diets or their sugar-free diets or.
00:30:34.624 --> 00:30:40.712
What we're missing is that there is a actual health reason for that to happen.
00:30:40.712 --> 00:30:49.471
And because of how far we've taken our food away from being natural, we're so much more dependent on lab created foods, more people are getting sick.
00:30:49.471 --> 00:30:56.770
And unfortunately, the meds to help you, “help you,” are made from the same ingredients.
00:30:56.770 --> 00:31:00.148
So like I can't take any medications.
00:31:00.148 --> 00:31:03.611
Like there's nothing—like when I get a migraine, I have to suffer.
00:31:03.611 --> 00:31:12.703
There is nothing I can take to help my migraine, because vitamins— vitamins and supplements and all medications are all derived from corn. Everything.
00:31:12.703 --> 00:31:13.663
Wow.
00:31:13.663 --> 00:31:15.373
What about, like, a natural?
00:31:15.373 --> 00:31:19.167
Like a, I don't know, like, essential oils or something homeopathic.
00:31:19.167 --> 00:31:20.252
Can you do that?
00:31:20.252 --> 00:31:24.798
I'm going to be honest, essential oils, in my book are the modern snake oil.
00:31:24.798 --> 00:31:27.175
I am allergic to essential oils...
00:31:27.175 --> 00:31:28.303
You are?
00:31:28.303 --> 00:31:32.347
...which tells you they're not truly essential oils.
00:31:32.347 --> 00:31:38.354
And essential oils, by definition, should be only made from, say, like you want a rose essential oil.
00:31:38.354 --> 00:31:40.315
Should only be made from rose.
00:31:40.315 --> 00:31:41.607
There should be nothing else in it.
00:31:41.607 --> 00:31:48.573
And yet we're adding corn byproducts to our essential oils, which means they're no longer essential.
00:31:48.573 --> 00:31:52.785
You're adding additional chemicals to your essential oils.
00:31:52.785 --> 00:31:55.663
So no. And that's the big problem.
00:31:55.663 --> 00:32:00.500
Because of my super sensitivity, I can't take those risks, right?
00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:02.795
I live in California, man.
00:32:02.795 --> 00:32:10.135
I have CBD everywhere, but I can't take any of it because it's all contaminated with, at some level, with corn.
00:32:10.135 --> 00:32:14.766
Whether it be produced in plastic, is additional ingredients.
00:32:14.766 --> 00:32:18.102
“Inactive ingredients,” my foot.
00:32:18.102 --> 00:32:20.104
[Laughs]
00:32:20.104 --> 00:32:21.105
Wow.
00:32:21.105 --> 00:32:25.026
Inactive ingredients still, can still make you sick. [Laughs]
00:32:25.026 --> 00:32:25.943
Yeah.
00:32:25.943 --> 00:32:36.453
Well, you told me at one point you, I believe, moved to California partly to access, like, farmers markets year round and be able to feed yourself, which is.
00:32:36.453 --> 00:32:38.957
Yeah, I can’t shop at a grocery store.
00:32:38.957 --> 00:32:41.334
Like, literally, like, if I go.
00:32:41.334 --> 00:32:48.715
I go to a local Sprouts, where I can find imported cheeses, because I can't use cheese typically made in the United States.
00:32:48.715 --> 00:32:54.055
I have a safe box of crackers that, I'm going to say, “safe”?
00:32:54.055 --> 00:32:55.347
Like it's, it's something.
00:32:55.347 --> 00:32:56.307
Mm-hmm.
00:32:56.307 --> 00:33:03.230
It took me a decade to find safe yeast because yeast is made on corn, so I can't even find safe yeast.
00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:04.147
So it's took a decade.
00:33:04.147 --> 00:33:06.526
I finally started making bread a year ago.
00:33:06.526 --> 00:33:08.611
Found a nice safe yeast.
00:33:08.611 --> 00:33:14.534
I had a sourdough starter I could use, and I have safe flour, which, you know, the key ingredients.
00:33:14.534 --> 00:33:15.410
It's crazy.
00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:18.246
Like, I just, all of that is just, yeah.
00:33:18.246 --> 00:33:23.209
I live in California, and I moved from Minnesota, like the capital of corn.
00:33:23.209 --> 00:33:28.213
[Laughs] Okay, well, maybe that's Nebraska, but it’s our number one export in Minnesota.
00:33:28.213 --> 00:33:29.214
[Laughs]
00:33:29.214 --> 00:33:31.009
Oh, interesting.
00:33:31.009 --> 00:33:34.178
But it's, so like, bringing this all together.
00:33:34.178 --> 00:33:55.991
You know, as you stated several times, you're kind of a special case because you're so sensitive, but that said, there's all these other people that are, you know, needing to be ultra careful because, they, their illnesses derive from, you know, either corn or something.
00:33:55.991 --> 00:34:06.626
And, and so there's need to educate the, the, food suppliers and, and I want to say food manufacturers, but that doesn't sound right.
00:34:06.626 --> 00:34:14.217
But there's need to educate about, like, labeling and, transparency around their processes and all of that. Correct?
00:34:14.217 --> 00:34:25.771
Yeah. Well, in a big part of it for, like, the, for businesses is, you know, whatever part they are in the food chain of how either they're in the lab or they're selling it on the other end is, you still have legal requirements.
00:34:25.771 --> 00:34:30.400
And what I'm saying to do isn't avoid legal requirements.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.737
It's like ADA.
00:34:32.737 --> 00:34:37.115
Your, your requirements that the government requires of you are the bare minimum.
00:34:37.115 --> 00:34:39.494
It’s the bare minimum to not get sued.
00:34:37.115 --> 00:34:39.494
Right?
00:34:39.494 --> 00:34:41.746
You need to at least hit that bar.
00:34:41.746 --> 00:34:48.710
What I'm doing is telling people you need to go above the bar if you're going to start including more people to find all of your ideal clients.
00:34:48.710 --> 00:35:08.313
Your, kind of like your own quest started with this food situation, but I also really appreciate and admire how the hidden consumer fits in with what we started talking about at the beginning with making your website accessible, making your location accessible.
00:35:08.313 --> 00:35:15.070
You know, there's a lot of people that need that, that you might not never, ever know that they do by just looking at them.
00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:23.286
They, you know, don't necessarily have a voice or like, you might not know unless you start to ask the right questions.
00:35:23.286 --> 00:35:29.710
And you know what's interesting is I don't think most people know how to ask those right questions because they don't know that that exists.
00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:30.418
Right.
00:35:30.418 --> 00:35:34.632
So like the client I want to work with in the food industry, I'm not going to be working for Nestlé.
00:35:34.632 --> 00:35:41.222
Nestlé could, Nestlé doesn't care if I can't eat their product, and they don't want to find people like me to buy their product, right?
00:35:41.222 --> 00:35:42.931
I'm not the ideal client.
00:35:42.931 --> 00:35:51.273
But you do have a group of people and companies that created their product to be healthier, to be that next level.
00:35:51.273 --> 00:35:56.362
They're, they don't want to be Nestlé, M&M or any of the big food companies.
00:35:56.362 --> 00:36:01.032
They, they want to create a product that attracts people because of their own issues.
00:36:01.032 --> 00:36:03.452
Maybe they're allergic to nuts.
00:36:01.032 --> 00:36:07.414
So they created this great, you know, nut-free product, but they can't reach them.
00:36:07.414 --> 00:36:12.711
And they can't reach them because they don't understand all the reasons people need to go nut free.
00:36:12.711 --> 00:36:13.880
It's not just allergies.
00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:26.559
There's so many other things that people need to take in consideration that, until you get someone who can understand that and help you, you can't write even your marketing copy, if you don't understand what people are looking for.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:30.896
So how do you ask those right questions if you don't know what you need to look for to begin with?
00:36:30.896 --> 00:36:32.565
Mmm. Yeah.
00:36:32.565 --> 00:36:35.400
That makes, that makes a lot of sense.
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:36.318
Yeah.
00:36:36.318 --> 00:36:39.530
So you're almost like this—I shouldn't say almost.
00:36:39.530 --> 00:36:46.996
You are this catalyst for change and really rippling out, you know.
00:36:46.996 --> 00:36:50.833
I know you're just getting started with your Hidden Consumers project.
00:36:50.833 --> 00:36:52.210
Let's call it a project.
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:59.800
But, you know, really, when we talk about impacts, it's easy to see how you're going to make a huge impact.
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:05.764
And I'm just curious, like for you, how do you define or think about impact?
00:37:05.764 --> 00:37:11.811
Impact for me is you have a, you make a positive change on the world around you.
00:37:11.811 --> 00:37:18.860
I am looking to change the world, but I also understand my positive impact is day to day with the people I have regular interactions with.
00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:31.706
So one more person I talked to and got the message out to is one more person that's going to step back and say, “Wait, I need to do this differently?” Or “Wait, what happened there?” Right?
00:37:31.706 --> 00:37:33.208
Like it's going to make them stop.
00:37:33.208 --> 00:37:34.876
It's going to make them pause.
00:37:34.876 --> 00:37:36.378
That's the positive impact.
00:37:36.378 --> 00:37:37.963
I mean, I want to change the world.
00:37:37.963 --> 00:37:43.094
I want websites to accurately talk about what is in all the ingredients.
00:37:43.094 --> 00:37:55.523
I know you don't legally have to, but if you want consumers to buy your product and maybe they're right there on the edge and they're your hidden consumer, the more value you provide, the more likely they are to buy your product.
00:37:55.523 --> 00:37:57.440
So how do we do that?
00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.652
Because we can't get it all on a label, like...
00:37:59.652 --> 00:38:02.697
[Laughs]...we're not going to put this on a little package, like.
00:38:02.697 --> 00:38:08.369
It's going to have to be connected to your website, and we're gonna have to find ways to really get that message out to people.
00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:10.121
So that's, that's the impact.
00:38:10.121 --> 00:38:18.586
The impact is day to day, how do we spread the message, and then who will actually take that step up and be a leader in their industry to make those changes?
00:38:18.586 --> 00:38:20.880
Mmm. So, it's so exciting.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.092
It's really exciting to witness your journey.
00:38:23.092 --> 00:38:25.052
You know, I really mean that.
00:38:25.052 --> 00:38:33.436
And look forward to watching what happens when this book comes out and, you know, all the things that are going to come after that.
00:38:33.436 --> 00:38:41.110
So, with that said, how can people find the book and find you and connect with you?
00:38:41.110 --> 00:38:42.360
Tell us everything.
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.780
I'm so excited about this book, because I keep talking about it, right?
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:52.121
[Laughs] We are still working on some edits because my book was research-based to start with.
00:38:52.121 --> 00:38:54.581
It's really about having that conversation in the book.
00:38:54.581 --> 00:38:56.583
So it's, this is a two-part thing.
00:38:56.583 --> 00:39:08.971
Before the book comes out, I'm releasing my research in white papers, so you'll be able to see the back end of how I came to this viewpoint and why I say what I do, before you get the book.
00:39:08.971 --> 00:39:10.389
It's not for the faint of heart.
00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:13.768
My research was 80,000 words.
00:39:13.768 --> 00:39:21.483
Basically it was an 80,000-word academic paper was where I started to move the book into that conversation because I, I had to get all that research out.
00:39:21.483 --> 00:39:23.402
So that's going to be the white paper.
00:39:23.402 --> 00:39:29.199
The book itself is about that conversation and really talking through, what does that research mean?
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.911
Because most people don't understand research at the level I do.
00:39:31.911 --> 00:39:32.786
And I get it.
00:39:32.786 --> 00:39:36.414
So it's, how does that impact daily life?
00:39:36.414 --> 00:39:45.757
So even if you're a consumer and you're like, “What is this all about?” You're going to be able to pick up and read the book and understand what we're trying to do in the food industry.
00:39:45.757 --> 00:39:49.469
And if you pick up the book and you go, “I know someone,”...
00:39:49.469 --> 00:39:53.974
[Laughs]...you should recommend the book to people that are in the food industry.
00:39:53.974 --> 00:39:55.141
Trust me, they need this book.
00:39:55.141 --> 00:39:59.438
So the book itself is on my website, hiddenconsumersconsulting.com.
00:39:59.438 --> 00:40:03.525
It's under “The Book” because it's going to be The Book of 2025.
00:40:03.525 --> 00:40:04.652
That's what I'm saying.
00:40:04.652 --> 00:40:07.737
And, because we, you know, we love our own stuff, right?
00:40:07.737 --> 00:40:08.489
[Laughs]
00:40:08.489 --> 00:40:12.534
You, you can actually preorder this almost anywhere.
00:40:12.534 --> 00:40:20.418
I recommend you go through bookshop.org and put in your local bookstore and preorder through your local bookstore.
00:40:20.418 --> 00:40:29.427
For me, I'm going to, I actually will preorder my own book because I want to support Get Lit Books in Moreno Valley, but you can order this anywhere.
00:40:29.427 --> 00:40:30.802
I'm on Amazon.
00:40:30.802 --> 00:40:32.804
You can find my author page on Amazon.
00:40:32.804 --> 00:40:36.516
I'm going to be applying for a Goodreads page as well, so you'll be able to find me there.
00:40:36.516 --> 00:40:39.853
But, Target, Barnes and Noble, they're all good at pre-ordering.
00:40:39.853 --> 00:40:41.438
You, I mean, you can pick.
00:40:41.438 --> 00:40:42.898
So there are a list.
00:40:42.898 --> 00:40:52.449
I've got ten, ten links on my book page of all the places you can preorder the book through, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia.
00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:55.244
Oh, wow. Nice.
00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:55.244
And the name of the book again?
00:40:55.244 --> 00:41:00.916
Uncovering the Power of Health-Conscious Buyers.”
00:41:00.916 --> 00:41:03.668
Okay.
00:41:00.916 --> 00:41:03.668
Wonderful. By Amy Graves.
00:41:03.668 --> 00:41:06.672
By Amy Graves. I know. I’m an author.
00:41:06.672 --> 00:41:09.300
You’re an author. Congratulations.
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:15.556
And I have a second book that it's been written and it's been written for like six years, and I have yet to publish it.
00:41:15.556 --> 00:41:17.391
So we'll see how this one goes.
00:41:17.391 --> 00:41:19.518
Maybe the second book will come up faster.
00:41:19.518 --> 00:41:20.603
[Laughs]
00:41:20.603 --> 00:41:30.195
Okay, well, that's a whole other conversation, but that sounds very interesting and look forward to that one as well.
00:41:30.195 --> 00:41:48.505
But thank you, Amy, for taking the time to talk with us about accessibility, food issues, corn, impact, making your voice heard, getting access to all the things that all people should be able to access and enjoy.
00:41:48.505 --> 00:41:52.842
It's really interesting, inspiring, the work that you're doing.
00:41:52.842 --> 00:41:55.429
And I loved this conversation.
00:41:55.429 --> 00:41:56.554
Thank you.
00:41:56.554 --> 00:41:58.641
This was fun. This was my favorite interview. I loved this. [Laughs]
00:41:58.641 --> 00:42:00.266
Your favorite interview?
00:42:00.266 --> 00:42:02.978
Wow. Wow. That's fantastic.
00:42:02.978 --> 00:42:03.896
Thank you.
00:42:03.896 --> 00:42:09.485
[electronic music concludes]
00:42:09.485 --> 00:42:12.403
And now here's our Impact Tip of the Month.
00:42:12.403 --> 00:42:16.534
It's okay not to know everything, as long as you're taking small steps to learn.
00:42:16.534 --> 00:42:26.335
Consider courses on accessibility that are relevant to your business, such as the many web accessibility courses you can find on sites like Udemy, Coursera, or edX.
00:42:26.335 --> 00:42:31.590
[music fades up] Thanks for listening and make sure to do good in the world this month.
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:38.347
If you have questions you'd like us to address on the podcast, you can reach us at info@riveocreative.com.
00:42:38.347 --> 00:42:43.268
Subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on any of our incredible upcoming guests.
00:42:43.268 --> 00:42:45.563
We'll see you soon at the Riveo Impact Lab.
00:42:45.563 --> 00:42:53.695
[electronic music][electronic music concludes]
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.421
[electronic music starts]
00:00:04.421 --> 00:00:13.804
Welcome to the Riveo Impact Lab, the podcast in which we explore what it means for small businesses to have real impact in an evolving world.
00:00:13.804 --> 00:00:24.315
On this podcast, we engage our curiosity around topics like sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and the ethical outcomes of our decisions, all from a small business perspective.
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I'm Elin and this is my co-host, Emily.
00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:32.073
At Riveo Creative, we've been talking a lot about accessibility in the past year.
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Inclusivity has always been one of our core values.
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And yet, as we began to look more into accessibility, we realized just how little we actually knew.
00:00:40.414 --> 00:00:48.548
That's why we quickly gathered a support team of people who are experts regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion, and formed our Diversity Advisory Board.
00:00:48.548 --> 00:00:53.594
One of those experts is Amy Graves, who we speak to on this episode of the Riveo Impact Lab.
00:00:53.594 --> 00:01:13.447
Amy is a web analytics expert, the Director of Accessibility for the National Association of Women Business Owners, or NAWBO, California, Chapter President of the NAWBO Inland Empire, founder and CEO of Hidden Consumer Consulting, and author of The Hidden Consumer.
00:01:13.447 --> 00:01:22.373
Amy has been working with the Riveo Creative team for the past five years, and we trust her with all things related to SEO.
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In this episode, however, Amy offers insight into what it means to foster a workplace culture that is inclusive and accessible, as well as the small steps any business can take to make this happen.
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Please enjoy our lovely conversation with Amy Graves.
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[electronic music concludes] Amy, hey.
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Nice to see you.
00:01:53.237 --> 00:01:55.489
Nice to see you too.
00:01:53.237 --> 00:01:55.489
I'm so excited.
00:01:55.489 --> 00:01:58.075
I know. I'm excited to talk with you today.
00:01:58.075 --> 00:02:01.829
We have this podcast, and it's all about impact.
00:02:01.829 --> 00:02:07.918
And, in thinking about who we wanted to bring on as guests, you were top of the list.
00:02:07.918 --> 00:02:10.045
Aw, thank you.
00:02:10.045 --> 00:02:18.513
So let's just start talking a little bit about you and how you got on this whole entrepreneurial journey in the first place.
00:02:18.513 --> 00:02:25.728
I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, like, 20 years ago when I was working in retail, and I was doing some really amazing things, turning stores around.
00:02:25.728 --> 00:02:32.276
And I didn't like the retail aspect of always having to work on the sales floor with the clients.
00:02:29.022 --> 00:02:37.949
[Laughs] But I did some really good work understanding numbers and human behavior, and I wanted to try and apply that to my own business.
00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:39.700
But it took me 20 years.
00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:43.413
We moved to California and I couldn't find employment.
00:02:43.413 --> 00:02:50.502
Every time I went in for a job interview, it was something about my crutches, because I'm disabled, and people were refusing to hire me.
00:02:50.502 --> 00:02:54.799
So I'm like, “Well, if I'm going to start up my own company, now's the time.” So I did.
00:02:54.799 --> 00:03:01.764
So it became more of, I needed to do this, is why I started my entrepreneurial journey, so I can make money.
00:02:58.887 --> 00:03:01.764
[Laughs]
00:03:01.764 --> 00:03:06.019
But, Amy, they weren't hiring you because of your crutches?
00:03:06.019 --> 00:03:08.645
That seems...
00:03:08.645 --> 00:03:09.897
Illegal?
00:03:09.897 --> 00:03:11.983
Yeah, illegal and antiquated.
00:03:11.983 --> 00:03:13.860
And what the heck?
00:03:13.860 --> 00:03:16.028
[Laughs] Yeah.
00:03:16.028 --> 00:03:17.405
How was this happening?
00:03:17.405 --> 00:03:36.633
So there's a law in California that allows companies to work— there's a loophole in this law that allows companies to at least say they're not going to hire you, because their risk management board feels you're a threat to the safety of employees around you.
00:03:36.633 --> 00:03:43.097
So because I use crutches, the “threat” is that people could trip over my crutches.
00:03:43.097 --> 00:03:47.143
So I am a risk to the company.
00:03:47.143 --> 00:03:52.147
Okay, I got a lot of problems with that, but we're going to move on.
00:03:52.147 --> 00:03:56.068
We're going to move on because you did, you, you, you know, took that situation.
00:03:56.068 --> 00:03:58.028
You started a business.
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It's led you on this, like, really interesting journey.
00:04:01.157 --> 00:04:06.329
Do you want to just talk briefly about your business and what it is that you actually do?
00:04:06.329 --> 00:04:07.497
Your core business.
00:04:07.497 --> 00:04:10.082
We're going to get into the new thing later.
00:04:10.082 --> 00:04:11.334
Okay, the new thing later.
00:04:11.334 --> 00:04:12.043
Okay, so.
00:04:12.043 --> 00:04:13.336
Yeah.
00:04:13.336 --> 00:04:15.629
That journey itself is also hilarious.
00:04:15.629 --> 00:04:20.759
I started March, I opened March 3rd, 2020.
00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:24.221
[Amy and Elin Laugh] Was perfect timing.
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Perfect timing.
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It couldn't be better. [Laughs]
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Couldn’t be better.
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I wanted to be, basically, I'm a certified business analyst, so I wanted to be the business analyst that helped companies figure out what's going on inside your company that's causing you not to grow, and, by going through data and talking about marketing strategies and really determining what your next step is.
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And covid hit 11 days later and nobody wanted that.
00:04:49.747 --> 00:04:51.040
Like I got nothing.
00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:52.165
It just died.
00:04:52.165 --> 00:04:59.382
So I looked at what, using my business analyst skills, what is the one problem everybody's having because we're all virtual?
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And it came down to your websites.
00:05:01.259 --> 00:05:08.766
So I jumped into working on websites and because I need data, I jumped in using Google Analytics right away.
00:05:08.766 --> 00:05:12.562
Started with Universal, wasn't really happy with the data feed.
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And then they launched Google Analytics 4.
00:05:16.149 --> 00:05:21.028
So I jumped on Google Analytics 4, December 2020, and I've been using it ever since.
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But it's because of that data I've been able to use my business analyst experience, my previous retail experience, and I help people understand how websites are the foundation of your digital marketing experience and if your website doesn't create value and engagement with your ideal client, you're never going to get your website to work for you.
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So that's what I do today is how do we make those websites be so valuable that people spend time, that they want to work with you, and it leads to conversion?
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Yeah.
00:05:53.685 --> 00:05:58.983
And we could spend our whole time talking about that and Google Analytics 4.
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We're not going to do that. [Laughs] We're not going to do that...
00:06:01.444 --> 00:06:02.528
[Laughs]
00:06:02.528 --> 00:06:05.156
...because we're only here to talk about impact.
00:06:05.156 --> 00:06:12.997
First I want to just like bring up the NAWBO, the National Association of Women Business Owners.
00:06:12.997 --> 00:06:21.297
You got involved with them as a business owner, and now you're the Director of Accessibility for, is it for California?
00:06:21.297 --> 00:06:22.464
Yeah. Yep.
00:06:22.464 --> 00:06:24.175
Okay. Okay.
00:06:24.175 --> 00:06:28.512
So you're, you're, you're the Director of Accessibility for NAWBO for California.
00:06:28.512 --> 00:06:32.182
You're a member of our Diversity Advisory Board.
00:06:32.182 --> 00:06:38.855
So I want to, you know, obviously, this is important to you and you've already shared discrimination you've experienced.
00:06:38.855 --> 00:06:46.363
But beyond that, why is accessibility so important to small businesses and business owners?
00:06:46.363 --> 00:06:47.656
Why should it be so important?
00:06:47.656 --> 00:06:49.783
Let me rephrase the question. [Laughs]
00:06:49.783 --> 00:06:51.244
It absolutely should be.
00:06:51.244 --> 00:06:55.081
A lot of what I want to do is turn the, the scenario around, too.
00:06:55.081 --> 00:06:57.625
So there's going to be a couple thoughts here coming out, but.
00:06:57.625 --> 00:07:06.591
Before I became disabled because I haven't been disabled my entire life, you know, you would, I would hear family and friends talk about “those stupid disabled people.
00:07:06.591 --> 00:07:09.262
They're shutting down businesses just because they don't have access.
00:07:09.262 --> 00:07:16.226
They're deliberately looking for people and suing them just to shut down the small businesses.” Like that's not the case.
00:07:16.226 --> 00:07:25.444
If you flip that scenario around, my question back is, why do disabled people not have a right to do business with you?
00:07:25.444 --> 00:07:32.660
So accessibility isn't—I mean, ADA laws are the basement level of inclusion and it's not an inclusion.
00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:38.458
I mean, ADA is, this is the bare minimum you need to do to not get sued.
00:07:38.458 --> 00:07:54.307
If you can't hit the bare minimum, maybe you need to rethink about how you do business and if maybe you have to move it online, which then it's still a whole, whole set of issues because you still have to be ADA accessible online, which I do help people with somewhat on their websites.
00:07:54.307 --> 00:08:01.021
But it's this thing where why, as a disabled person, am I constantly being excluded?
00:08:01.021 --> 00:08:09.947
I got involved with NAWBO on the accessibility side because they weren't including people with disabilities, and that's where my fight with them right now is.
00:08:09.947 --> 00:08:12.492
And I'm going to call it a fight because it is.
00:08:12.492 --> 00:08:14.242
Inclusion is the ceiling.
00:08:14.242 --> 00:08:16.620
You should always reach for, “how high can I go?
00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:22.793
How many people can I bring in to be involved and be part of it?” Versus, “Oh, they're disabled.
00:08:22.793 --> 00:08:23.752
We've got ADA.
00:08:23.752 --> 00:08:35.389
I'm not going to worry about including them because if they can get in the door, who cares?” And that's what a majority of businesses and a majority of organizations consider accessibility.
00:08:35.389 --> 00:08:36.599
Just let them in the door.
00:08:36.599 --> 00:08:38.558
And most of the time, you still can't get in the door...
00:08:38.558 --> 00:08:44.273
[laughs]...or the door is like two miles away and you still have to walk an extra two miles.
00:08:44.273 --> 00:08:45.982
[Laughs]
00:08:45.982 --> 00:08:53.740
It's really crazy, thinking about all the, like, physical locations that are just not accessible.
00:08:53.740 --> 00:09:02.332
You know, it happens plenty in our own country, but I was traveling in Europe with cobblestone streets and really, super old buildings, steep stairs.
00:09:02.332 --> 00:09:20.268
And I understand that there are reasons that some of those buildings can't be modified and so on and so forth, but it's really a big deal, you know, that there's all these places that people with disabilities can't access.
00:09:20.268 --> 00:09:22.894
And it's not just physical, it's online too.
00:09:22.894 --> 00:09:30.570
It's, I was looking at a website the other day that, it just had so much going on.
00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:38.034
It's like animation, not just animation, but like, tons of different video, flash pop-up things.
00:09:38.034 --> 00:09:40.453
You know, all, so much happening.
00:09:40.453 --> 00:09:42.706
And I was like... [laughing]...I was thinking about you.
00:09:42.706 --> 00:09:45.293
And I thought, “Amy would hate this.”[Laughs]
00:09:45.293 --> 00:09:48.044
[Laughs]
00:09:48.044 --> 00:09:50.130
My own mom is losing her vision.
00:09:50.130 --> 00:09:56.177
So we're, we're all learning how to use screen readers and how to, like, help her navigate that.
00:09:56.177 --> 00:10:01.642
And I guess that's pretty common is like when it hits you personally, that's what you really understand.
00:10:01.642 --> 00:10:12.903
But can you explain a little bit about like, why something like that crazy website is really problematic and, and locks people out, locks a lot of people out.
00:10:12.903 --> 00:10:26.000
There's two big things about that, is when it comes to a website, the more animation, the more videos, the more movement, the more things, you just like, you threw the whole kitchen sink at one page, it's going to slow down your ability to load.
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.087
So that means people on older technology are not going to be able to, to see your website.
00:10:31.087 --> 00:10:39.889
And my first question is, did you design the website for your ideal client, or did you design it because it's what you wanted and you had a fear of missing out?
00:10:39.889 --> 00:10:45.811
Most people design their websites based on FOMO and that kills your website hardcore.
00:10:45.811 --> 00:10:49.230
The other issue is, and I'm going to give you a personal experience here.
00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:53.778
I was working with a client and they rebuilt and they were so excited.
00:10:53.778 --> 00:11:04.288
They had this great new home page for their website, and they animated and created motion for every single text box and image on site.
00:11:04.288 --> 00:11:14.005
I literally got sick and had to shut down the website because I could not get through the first top half of the page because there was so much movement.
00:11:14.005 --> 00:11:29.187
So people with disabilities who are any, on different aspect of the spectrum, you get motion sickness, looking at a website like that, if you need to take drugs to look at a website, yeah, website probably needs to be taken down a notch. [Laughs]
00:11:29.187 --> 00:11:30.272
Yeah.
00:11:30.272 --> 00:11:32.899
It comes down to one simple thing, those kinds of things.
00:11:32.899 --> 00:11:36.236
It's not that you can't use them.
00:11:36.236 --> 00:11:38.905
You have to be strategic.
00:11:38.905 --> 00:11:41.033
Right? This was a PR company.
00:11:41.033 --> 00:11:44.577
We don't need to animate your headlines.
00:11:44.577 --> 00:11:49.166
We do need a headline and animate your images.
00:11:49.166 --> 00:11:58.509
We want people to stop and look at the images of what you've done for your previous clients, because your PR, it's about that visual experience.
00:11:58.509 --> 00:12:04.597
That's where the strategy comes in and where I would come in and also show you why the numbers show that's what you need to do.
00:12:04.597 --> 00:12:08.601
But yeah, it's, it's gross. I get so mad.
00:12:08.601 --> 00:12:09.812
[Laughs]
00:12:09.812 --> 00:12:15.442
Yeah, and unfortunately, I, I don't know, I'm not an expert in this area.
00:12:15.442 --> 00:12:34.754
You may have better insight, but it seems to me that probably still the majority of websites or, you know, maybe at least half, are just not very user friendly if you're using something like a screen reader, if you're, I don't know, colorblind or you have other issues.
00:12:34.754 --> 00:12:40.216
There's just a lot of un-optimal websites out there.
00:12:40.216 --> 00:12:44.889
Yeah. And I actually, I really blame that on traditional search engine optimization.
00:12:44.889 --> 00:12:57.192
Like, it's that, traditional SEO was all about dropping people on a website and not caring what the website, as long as they draw as many people as possible, they'll just get the numbers randomly.
00:12:57.192 --> 00:13:06.659
But that doesn't create a website that engages people, and that doesn't create a website where you actually have to put your focus on who you want to work with.
00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:19.173
So the websites, almost all websites today are based on the business owner and what they want to see on a website, which does nothing for your business and it does nothing for accessibility.
00:13:19.173 --> 00:13:22.426
If I, like, my website still has issues.
00:13:22.426 --> 00:13:26.639
I have a plug-in for ADA because I can't fix everything.
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.432
But you know, I have problems with my colors.
00:13:29.432 --> 00:13:34.897
My colors are not color...
00:13:29.432 --> 00:13:34.897
are not colorblindness friendly.
00:13:34.897 --> 00:13:45.990
So I'm constantly trying to rework, how do I make this and just make this, like, an accent color so that it's not interfering with what people are reading and how they're engaging with the website?
00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:56.085
So it's, it's a constant, you have to constantly think about it from someone else's perspective, which as humans, that's not our priority, right?
00:13:56.085 --> 00:13:57.293
And that’s part of it. [Laughs]
00:13:57.293 --> 00:14:04.844
It's true, until it hits you directly, like with my mom or with you, you know, the issues that you've had to face.
00:14:04.844 --> 00:14:08.138
And so I think we're, you know, we're talking about two different things.
00:14:08.138 --> 00:14:09.722
Physical accessibility.
00:14:09.722 --> 00:14:17.105
Like, you're running into some issues with NAWBO, being able to get into certain buildings and, you know, other issues.
00:14:17.105 --> 00:14:20.860
And the digital accessibility.
00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:34.956
So just talking like in broad terms, let's say there's a business owner listening to this podcast and they say,“Oh, I would like to do better.” Where's a good place to start with either of those, you know, items?
00:14:34.956 --> 00:14:38.335
It can feel overwhelming because there's, there's a lot to think about.
00:14:38.335 --> 00:14:45.634
Yeah. I would say the first two things to do for your website is turn off all animations and get rid of the videos in your banner.
00:14:45.634 --> 00:14:48.345
Start there. Simple, easy.
00:14:48.345 --> 00:14:49.679
I know it's going to hurt.
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.474
Everyone tells me, “But, but, but I love my videos.
00:14:52.474 --> 00:14:55.226
But, but, but.” It's okay.
00:14:52.474 --> 00:14:55.226
You can put them elsewhere.
00:14:55.226 --> 00:14:59.023
I'm not saying no, but if it's, especially on your homepage.
00:14:59.023 --> 00:15:00.691
Put your focus on your homepage.
00:15:00.691 --> 00:15:01.900
We'll leave everything else alone.
00:15:01.900 --> 00:15:07.780
But your homepage has to load quickly because the other pages will load while someone's on your homepage.
00:15:07.780 --> 00:15:12.535
But that homepage has to be snap of your fingers load, or you're going to lose everybody.
00:15:12.535 --> 00:15:22.879
The other thing is, I challenge you to go through read every word on your homepage in a monotone voice.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:29.552
Do you understand the sentences if you read it in a monotone voice and stop at the punctuation?
00:15:29.552 --> 00:15:33.514
So for instance, like your mom, you know, you're learning screen readers.
00:15:33.514 --> 00:15:39.104
The system is reading the page to you.
00:15:39.104 --> 00:15:41.856
There's no inflection of emotion, right?
00:15:41.856 --> 00:15:53.744
That, that period, you got to be clear, concise and have like under 20 words for a sentence for someone hearing your website to understand what you're trying to convey.
00:15:53.744 --> 00:15:56.871
So those are the two things to start with.
00:15:56.871 --> 00:15:59.166
Yeah.
00:15:56.871 --> 00:15:59.166
No, that's great advice.
00:15:59.166 --> 00:16:04.797
And I also would invite anybody to try to use one of those screen readers.
00:16:04.797 --> 00:16:07.758
You'll understand very quickly.
00:16:07.758 --> 00:16:08.424
[Laughs]
00:16:08.424 --> 00:16:22.313
Yeah. And we're going to get to this in a minute, talking about your initiative around hidden consumers, because this is not only the right thing to do, but it is a big audience that people are missing out on if they're not doing these things.
00:16:22.313 --> 00:16:29.488
But before we go there, I just want to ask you, and you may not have an answer for this; I don't know.
00:16:29.488 --> 00:16:41.041
But do you know of any new like, tech, technological innovations or anything that has come out recently or is coming out that's going to, be beneficial for improving accessibility?
00:16:41.041 --> 00:16:43.418
Actually, it's the one that everyone talks about.
00:16:43.418 --> 00:16:48.131
And it’s the thing I actually have the most distrust and dislike for right now.
00:16:48.131 --> 00:16:51.301
But from an accessibility standpoint, it's very important.
00:16:51.301 --> 00:16:52.885
And it's AI.
00:16:52.885 --> 00:16:55.221
I knew you were going to say that. [Laughs]
00:16:55.221 --> 00:16:57.975
[Laughs]
00:16:57.975 --> 00:16:59.308
AI, yes.
00:16:59.308 --> 00:17:01.812
Yeah, AI is not my favorite tool.
00:17:01.812 --> 00:17:04.440
As a tech person, I'm very concerned.
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:21.457
I'm doing some different things in my company right now that I don't want AI to learn on my tech, and I don't want them to learn on what I'm doing, because I want to kind of keep what I'm doing to myself until I can really get it out there so people understand what I do.
00:17:21.457 --> 00:17:24.292
And AI, if they're learning on it, they're stealing it.
00:17:24.292 --> 00:17:25.501
Like that's just what it is.
00:17:25.501 --> 00:17:32.509
If you're using a free AI software, you're allowing AI to train on your, your intellectual property.
00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:34.510
So there's, there's this line.
00:17:34.510 --> 00:17:36.846
There's a line.
00:17:34.510 --> 00:17:36.846
I do use it in certain cases.
00:17:36.846 --> 00:17:46.606
But from, like, the, from a, from a person with a disability, AI is going to be beneficial because you can just feed it something and get that information back.
00:17:46.606 --> 00:17:54.280
It might, I mean, there's just, there's ways that tool is going to be beneficial for those who need additional help and support.
00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:57.451
I don't know I'll, I don't use it right now for that specific purpose.
00:17:57.451 --> 00:18:00.328
So I can't be really concise on what that looks like.
00:18:00.328 --> 00:18:07.086
But I know people in my Chronic Boss Collective group where AI is an important part of what they do today.
00:18:07.086 --> 00:18:10.838
Like they depend on that so heavily because it's an accessibility thing.
00:18:10.838 --> 00:18:22.267
But like all good things for, that end up coming out for people with accessibilities, someone's going to find another way to use it and it won't be as accessible. [Laughs] Like that's just how it works.
00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.267
[Laughs]
00:18:22.267 --> 00:18:25.854
Well, someone was talking about, it might have been you even.
00:18:25.854 --> 00:18:38.450
I can't remember who I was having this conversation with, but it was about how sometimes technology is developed not necessarily with the intention of helping with accessibility.
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:40.243
Like Siri.
00:18:40.243 --> 00:18:44.205
And it ends up to be such a valuable tool in that community.
00:18:44.205 --> 00:18:47.084
It's sort of the best of both worlds because it benefits everybody.
00:18:47.084 --> 00:18:57.051
Smart technology, there's a lot of people in the background that, especially if you work in tech, smart technology is something to still be worried about and to really be cautious with using.
00:18:57.051 --> 00:19:16.654
But for someone with a disability, if you can't get out of bed and you can just tell your home system to turn the lights on, I mean, how amazing is that, that you've just gained a whole nother level of independence because you don't have to wait for someone to come home and flip a light on because you can't get up and do it yourself.
00:19:16.654 --> 00:19:18.781
That, I'm speaking from previous experience.
00:19:18.781 --> 00:19:27.499
Like when I went into paralysis in 2008, before, before we had the speech to text software on phones.
00:19:27.499 --> 00:19:32.587
Like Dragon software was top of the line, remember?
00:19:32.587 --> 00:19:35.339
I do actually, yeah. Yep
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:42.306
[Laughs] And to think, like, in less than 20 years, we've taken that technology.
00:19:42.306 --> 00:19:43.807
We can control our homes.
00:19:43.807 --> 00:19:59.030
So now, if I was at home paralyzed and not able to move sitting in the dark because my husband doesn't get home till midnight because of, he’s coaching basketball, I could have just said,“Alexa, turn on my lights.” I didn't have to sit in the dark. [Laughs]
00:19:59.030 --> 00:20:00.865
Right. Right.
00:20:00.865 --> 00:20:06.329
So, yeah, that's a great example of a technology though, that does exactly that.
00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:09.958
And it's very beneficial to those with disabilities.
00:20:09.958 --> 00:20:11.667
Yeah. No, that's a really good point.
00:20:11.667 --> 00:20:21.345
And I imagine that in the coming years, that's just going to evolve more and become more customized, I guess, to each person and what they need.
00:20:21.345 --> 00:20:29.685
I would say in the last five years, I don't, I don't think even the last ten years, but at least in the last five years, there's been more emphasis put on accessibility.
00:20:29.685 --> 00:20:37.611
You can do, go into Word and you can tell it what to type up for you and it will do your corrections.
00:20:37.611 --> 00:20:39.445
So you don't have to actually be typing.
00:20:39.445 --> 00:20:44.660
But even on your browsers, you have accessibility settings now.
00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:54.001
Like go to Chrome, go to whatever you use and you can turn on accessibility, so you can talk to your browser and it will pull up the website you're looking for.
00:20:54.001 --> 00:20:57.338
So yeah, there's, there's some great technology coming out.
00:20:57.338 --> 00:21:19.736
When we talk about impact, you know, this is one way that we're able to, I guess, make an impact is to reach, to make sure that our message is getting to a previously marginalized group of people, who were unable to receive it.
00:21:19.736 --> 00:21:30.705
And I do think that many of us have never really gave that a lot of thought, you know, realized how challenging it, it is to live with certain conditions.
00:21:30.705 --> 00:21:38.547
And, and now that there's maybe more awareness and there's more tools and, you know, we do have an ability to do more.
00:21:38.547 --> 00:21:46.971
At this point, I'm going to switch over and invite a conversation around the hidden consumers work that you're doing because this is, you know, talk about impact.
00:21:46.971 --> 00:21:49.182
This is really, really cool.
00:21:49.182 --> 00:22:03.571
Do you want to, do you want to talk a little bit more about some of your own challenges, like with food and that because I think that might lead well into this segment.
00:22:03.571 --> 00:22:06.490
Into the next conversation? Yes. [Laughs]
00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.368
[Laughs] So, as much as you want to share.
00:22:09.368 --> 00:22:11.913
You know, your story is interesting.
00:22:11.913 --> 00:22:32.683
And, I hope you're okay with me sharing this, but you have suspicion, you told me, that could possibly, you know, some of the pesticides you were exposed to as a child on commercial farms may have had a role to play in, in what you've been dealing with.
00:22:32.683 --> 00:22:34.560
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:38.940
So Hidden Consumers is something I always wanted to do when I opened my business.
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:43.362
I wanted to really work in the food industry based on my own experience.
00:22:43.362 --> 00:22:52.037
But I got started with it because I understood that, when it came to websites, we have so many hidden consumers for every industry that we don't realize.
00:22:52.037 --> 00:22:56.415
And, so Hidden Consumers slowly evolved out of that.
00:22:56.415 --> 00:23:07.969
And about two years ago, two years, almost three years ago now, I made the decision that I wanted to finally move my way into working with the food industry, specifically, because of my own background.
00:23:07.969 --> 00:23:19.689
Around the time I was dealing with paralysis and I had gone down, and then I developed a few other issues along the way, things started coming back that I was reacting to food, and at first we thought it was just wheat and soy.
00:23:19.689 --> 00:23:20.648
Well, wheat.
00:23:20.648 --> 00:23:22.317
So I did the whole gluten free thing.
00:23:22.317 --> 00:23:24.903
Got really sick. It wasn't the wheat.
00:23:24.903 --> 00:23:28.781
Then I'm like, “Oh, it's got to—” Then I started seeing a connection that soy was involved.
00:23:28.781 --> 00:23:32.618
So I'm like, “Okay, I'm gonna take out everything that’s soy.” Still got sick.
00:23:32.618 --> 00:23:34.413
Like it was wheat, soy. Like it helped.
00:23:34.413 --> 00:23:36.580
I got a little bit better, but I wasn't, I wasn't better.
00:23:36.580 --> 00:23:44.631
And I finally got to a point where, I had a sinus infection, and it lasted for three years.
00:23:44.631 --> 00:23:52.012
And I had to go in and have it surgically removed from—they, we, we had saw a spot.
00:23:52.012 --> 00:23:58.603
A hole had developed because I had been blowing my nose so much, I literally ripped part of the lining of my, my nasal cavity.
00:23:58.603 --> 00:24:00.855
So we had to go in and do some work.
00:24:00.855 --> 00:24:14.827
But the big thing that came out of it, he goes, when the doctor came out and he's like,“You need to understand that people who have an infection to the extent that you do, it's always connected back to food.
00:24:14.827 --> 00:24:19.915
You have to find out what you're allergic to.” And that began my process.
00:24:19.915 --> 00:24:21.917
That was 2013.
00:24:21.917 --> 00:24:28.383
2016, I figured out fully it was corn and all corn derivatives, and I'm super sensitive.
00:24:28.383 --> 00:24:32.596
So basically I'm allergic to life, because corn is used in everything.
00:24:32.596 --> 00:24:35.515
It's not just, you know, popcorn and corn on the cob.
00:24:35.515 --> 00:24:36.932
It's dextrose.
00:24:36.932 --> 00:24:39.810
It's polyester.
00:24:39.810 --> 00:24:41.145
It's nylon.
00:24:41.145 --> 00:24:44.648
It's like anything we use in life today.
00:24:44.648 --> 00:24:47.359
It's your—I had to gut my kitchen.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:52.615
Like my pans all had that, that nonstick coating which is made from corn starch.
00:24:52.615 --> 00:24:54.159
I had to go to all stainless.
00:24:54.159 --> 00:25:00.582
I mean, my food tastes way better today than it did six years ago... [Laughs]...ten years ago or whatever now.
00:25:00.582 --> 00:25:03.585
But yeah, it was, it became this whole process of.
00:25:03.585 --> 00:25:13.845
And then because of it, I had to understand how our food is actually made in a lab because I am so sensitive.
00:25:13.845 --> 00:25:20.143
If an ingredient is made in the lab and the base element is corn, I'm going to have a reaction to it.
00:25:20.143 --> 00:25:22.436
I'm like a parts per billion person.
00:25:22.436 --> 00:25:23.939
So I'm super rare and I get it.
00:25:23.939 --> 00:25:25.606
I'm super rare.
00:25:25.606 --> 00:25:28.276
And I thought it was only me.
00:25:28.276 --> 00:25:35.909
But the more I shared my journey as I was going on this because I shared everything like, “Can you believe that they put corn in this?
00:25:35.909 --> 00:25:39.703
Why is this made from corn?” Like I was telling the world and you know.
00:25:39.703 --> 00:25:43.040
People were like, “Amy, you need to write a book,” which I finally did, but we’ll get there. [Laughs]
00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:45.085
Okay, wait. Give us some example.
00:25:45.085 --> 00:25:50.673
What are some, what are some, what are some things that corn is present in that you wouldn't think?
00:25:50.673 --> 00:25:52.259
Socks. Socks.
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:53.218
What?
00:25:53.218 --> 00:25:54.051
You know.
00:25:54.051 --> 00:26:01.268
[Laughs] The elastic bands that you have in your—socks is like, because I had to throw away all my socks.
00:26:01.268 --> 00:26:04.395
But elastic bands are pretty much coated in corn starch.
00:26:04.395 --> 00:26:09.025
I would break out in hives wherever my socks touched my skin.
00:26:09.025 --> 00:26:09.984
Wow.
00:26:09.984 --> 00:26:16.031
I wore a nylon dress to a wedding, and I had hives and a rash whever the dress touched my skin.
00:26:16.031 --> 00:26:17.534
Oh my goodness.
00:26:17.534 --> 00:26:18.785
It was bad.
00:26:18.785 --> 00:26:22.872
So you can only wear cotton, like natural fibers, I assume?
00:26:22.872 --> 00:26:24.790
Natural fibers. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:24.790 --> 00:26:28.127
Or why, why is there corn starch in my sugar?
00:26:28.127 --> 00:26:30.212
Why is there corn starch in my salt?
00:26:30.212 --> 00:26:32.298
Like I can't use basic table salt.
00:26:32.298 --> 00:26:33.842
I can't use basic table sugar.
00:26:33.842 --> 00:26:42.933
I can't use anything like Sugar in the Raw or any of those sugars, because they're all involve corn starch, like it's, or, like it's all there.
00:26:42.933 --> 00:26:53.569
And it's legal to put it in there without saying it's in there because it's “not intended for digestion.” Like if it's in my food, I'm digesting it.
00:26:53.569 --> 00:26:58.325
I don't care what your intention is.
00:26:53.569 --> 00:27:00.660
[Laughs] But who knows that?
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:05.414
Like I didn't, until I had to dig into it and find out, why am I reacting to sugar?
00:27:05.414 --> 00:27:07.916
Why am I reacting to salt?
00:27:07.916 --> 00:27:11.128
Like it was a whole thing.
00:27:07.916 --> 00:27:11.128
I got so mad.
00:27:11.128 --> 00:27:12.797
[Laughs]
00:27:12.797 --> 00:27:16.343
That's, that's really, really interesting.
00:27:16.343 --> 00:27:22.641
So it, so this whole journey led you on this hidden consumers path.
00:27:22.641 --> 00:27:24.017
Path, yeah.
00:27:24.017 --> 00:27:28.438
So what I realized along the way is that I'm not the only one.
00:27:28.438 --> 00:27:41.742
And the more I talk about my story, the more people tell me, “You know, I know so-and-so” or “I'm in this boat too where I have to be really diligent, not to your level, but I have to be diligent too.” A majority of people are struggling with their food.
00:27:41.742 --> 00:27:46.538
They don't understand how their food has certain ingredients or why.
00:27:46.538 --> 00:28:11.522
So one of the things I, when I was researching my book, that I discovered is that the population of people who are between 30 and 40 years old right now have the highest level of kidney failure, linked back to our lab-created sugars that are in our energy drinks, our sodas, hidden sugars that are in “sugar-free” food.
00:28:11.522 --> 00:28:14.358
They're not really sugar free.
00:28:11.522 --> 00:28:14.358
I'm just going to tell you that right now.
00:28:14.358 --> 00:28:22.075
There's like 50 names for sugar that don't say “sugar.” As long as it doesn't say “sugar,” it's sugar free.
00:28:22.075 --> 00:28:30.083
Like the whole system is, is like, if you don't know how to shop for food and understand the ingredients, it, you're going to continue to get sick.
00:28:30.083 --> 00:28:31.000
That's just how it is.
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.589
But the number of people that like, are in kidney failure, though, are equivalent to the population of the state of New York.
00:28:37.589 --> 00:28:38.674
Wow.
00:28:38.674 --> 00:28:47.099
This is why we’re seeing so many dialysis centers popping up and people needing kidney transplants is becoming more and more common.
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:49.144
It's, it's linked back to our food.
00:28:49.144 --> 00:28:55.442
And there's peer-reviewed research, which is what I focus on for my book is—it's not going to be in the book.
00:28:55.442 --> 00:28:57.609
Just, just not going to scare people.
00:28:57.609 --> 00:29:01.489
[Laughs][Laughs] Well you were telling me you love research.
00:29:01.489 --> 00:29:02.740
You love doing research.
00:29:02.740 --> 00:29:04.909
I do. I have a, I'm a historian.
00:29:04.909 --> 00:29:08.371
Like I got my undergraduate degree in history, which is just research and analysis.
00:29:08.371 --> 00:29:13.710
So like I'm in my element if I could be in a library digging and yeah, that's, that's me.
00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:15.420
[Laughs]
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:27.432
So this book is, it is well researched, but presented in a, presented in a like, conversational, easy-to-understand way.
00:29:27.432 --> 00:29:32.186
And what will it help people do or understand?
00:29:32.186 --> 00:29:42.196
What it's really going to do is help, it's going to help businesses, especially in the food industry, understand how people are shopping for food differently today than they were a decade ago.
00:29:42.196 --> 00:29:50.246
Why the, why things have changed to such an extent, and why so many more people are health conscious?
00:29:50.246 --> 00:29:56.877
What is it about our health that's connected to food that we can't just go out and buy and eat whatever we want anymore?
00:29:56.877 --> 00:30:03.009
Not everyone is my sensitivity level, but almost everybody has something they have to avoid.
00:30:03.009 --> 00:30:05.636
I mean, we see the memes all the time.
00:30:05.636 --> 00:30:15.896
When I first figured out it was corn, I literally had a friend send me a meme saying, with the— have you seen, like, the plate of ice cubes saying, “It's the gluten free keto” whatever diet?
00:30:15.896 --> 00:30:17.315
And they sent it to me.
00:30:17.315 --> 00:30:19.526
And my first response is, “I'm allergic to that.
00:30:19.526 --> 00:30:21.277
Ice cubes are made in a plastic.
00:30:21.277 --> 00:30:24.489
I'm allergic to plastics because plastics are made from corn.
00:30:24.489 --> 00:30:28.951
I would have a reaction to a plate of ice cubes.” That's the thing is, we don't know.
00:30:28.951 --> 00:30:34.624
Like, we make fun of all these people who have to take keto diets or their sugar-free diets or.
00:30:34.624 --> 00:30:40.712
What we're missing is that there is a actual health reason for that to happen.
00:30:40.712 --> 00:30:49.471
And because of how far we've taken our food away from being natural, we're so much more dependent on lab created foods, more people are getting sick.
00:30:49.471 --> 00:30:56.770
And unfortunately, the meds to help you, “help you,” are made from the same ingredients.
00:30:56.770 --> 00:31:00.148
So like I can't take any medications.
00:31:00.148 --> 00:31:03.611
Like there's nothing—like when I get a migraine, I have to suffer.
00:31:03.611 --> 00:31:12.703
There is nothing I can take to help my migraine, because vitamins— vitamins and supplements and all medications are all derived from corn. Everything.
00:31:12.703 --> 00:31:13.663
Wow.
00:31:13.663 --> 00:31:15.373
What about, like, a natural?
00:31:15.373 --> 00:31:19.167
Like a, I don't know, like, essential oils or something homeopathic.
00:31:19.167 --> 00:31:20.252
Can you do that?
00:31:20.252 --> 00:31:24.798
I'm going to be honest, essential oils, in my book are the modern snake oil.
00:31:24.798 --> 00:31:27.175
I am allergic to essential oils...
00:31:27.175 --> 00:31:28.303
You are?
00:31:28.303 --> 00:31:32.347
...which tells you they're not truly essential oils.
00:31:32.347 --> 00:31:38.354
And essential oils, by definition, should be only made from, say, like you want a rose essential oil.
00:31:38.354 --> 00:31:40.315
Should only be made from rose.
00:31:40.315 --> 00:31:41.607
There should be nothing else in it.
00:31:41.607 --> 00:31:48.573
And yet we're adding corn byproducts to our essential oils, which means they're no longer essential.
00:31:48.573 --> 00:31:52.785
You're adding additional chemicals to your essential oils.
00:31:52.785 --> 00:31:55.663
So no. And that's the big problem.
00:31:55.663 --> 00:32:00.500
Because of my super sensitivity, I can't take those risks, right?
00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:02.795
I live in California, man.
00:32:02.795 --> 00:32:10.135
I have CBD everywhere, but I can't take any of it because it's all contaminated with, at some level, with corn.
00:32:10.135 --> 00:32:14.766
Whether it be produced in plastic, is additional ingredients.
00:32:14.766 --> 00:32:18.102
“Inactive ingredients,” my foot.
00:32:18.102 --> 00:32:20.104
[Laughs]
00:32:20.104 --> 00:32:21.105
Wow.
00:32:21.105 --> 00:32:25.026
Inactive ingredients still, can still make you sick. [Laughs]
00:32:25.026 --> 00:32:25.943
Yeah.
00:32:25.943 --> 00:32:36.453
Well, you told me at one point you, I believe, moved to California partly to access, like, farmers markets year round and be able to feed yourself, which is.
00:32:36.453 --> 00:32:38.957
Yeah, I can’t shop at a grocery store.
00:32:38.957 --> 00:32:41.334
Like, literally, like, if I go.
00:32:41.334 --> 00:32:48.715
I go to a local Sprouts, where I can find imported cheeses, because I can't use cheese typically made in the United States.
00:32:48.715 --> 00:32:54.055
I have a safe box of crackers that, I'm going to say, “safe”?
00:32:54.055 --> 00:32:55.347
Like it's, it's something.
00:32:55.347 --> 00:32:56.307
Mm-hmm.
00:32:56.307 --> 00:33:03.230
It took me a decade to find safe yeast because yeast is made on corn, so I can't even find safe yeast.
00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:04.147
So it's took a decade.
00:33:04.147 --> 00:33:06.526
I finally started making bread a year ago.
00:33:06.526 --> 00:33:08.611
Found a nice safe yeast.
00:33:08.611 --> 00:33:14.534
I had a sourdough starter I could use, and I have safe flour, which, you know, the key ingredients.
00:33:14.534 --> 00:33:15.410
It's crazy.
00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:18.246
Like, I just, all of that is just, yeah.
00:33:18.246 --> 00:33:23.209
I live in California, and I moved from Minnesota, like the capital of corn.
00:33:23.209 --> 00:33:28.213
[Laughs] Okay, well, maybe that's Nebraska, but it’s our number one export in Minnesota.
00:33:28.213 --> 00:33:29.214
[Laughs]
00:33:29.214 --> 00:33:31.009
Oh, interesting.
00:33:31.009 --> 00:33:34.178
But it's, so like, bringing this all together.
00:33:34.178 --> 00:33:55.991
You know, as you stated several times, you're kind of a special case because you're so sensitive, but that said, there's all these other people that are, you know, needing to be ultra careful because, they, their illnesses derive from, you know, either corn or something.
00:33:55.991 --> 00:34:06.626
And, and so there's need to educate the, the, food suppliers and, and I want to say food manufacturers, but that doesn't sound right.
00:34:06.626 --> 00:34:14.217
But there's need to educate about, like, labeling and, transparency around their processes and all of that. Correct?
00:34:14.217 --> 00:34:25.771
Yeah. Well, in a big part of it for, like, the, for businesses is, you know, whatever part they are in the food chain of how either they're in the lab or they're selling it on the other end is, you still have legal requirements.
00:34:25.771 --> 00:34:30.400
And what I'm saying to do isn't avoid legal requirements.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.737
It's like ADA.
00:34:32.737 --> 00:34:37.115
Your, your requirements that the government requires of you are the bare minimum.
00:34:37.115 --> 00:34:39.494
It’s the bare minimum to not get sued.
00:34:37.115 --> 00:34:39.494
Right?
00:34:39.494 --> 00:34:41.746
You need to at least hit that bar.
00:34:41.746 --> 00:34:48.710
What I'm doing is telling people you need to go above the bar if you're going to start including more people to find all of your ideal clients.
00:34:48.710 --> 00:35:08.313
Your, kind of like your own quest started with this food situation, but I also really appreciate and admire how the hidden consumer fits in with what we started talking about at the beginning with making your website accessible, making your location accessible.
00:35:08.313 --> 00:35:15.070
You know, there's a lot of people that need that, that you might not never, ever know that they do by just looking at them.
00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:23.286
They, you know, don't necessarily have a voice or like, you might not know unless you start to ask the right questions.
00:35:23.286 --> 00:35:29.710
And you know what's interesting is I don't think most people know how to ask those right questions because they don't know that that exists.
00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:30.418
Right.
00:35:30.418 --> 00:35:34.632
So like the client I want to work with in the food industry, I'm not going to be working for Nestlé.
00:35:34.632 --> 00:35:41.222
Nestlé could, Nestlé doesn't care if I can't eat their product, and they don't want to find people like me to buy their product, right?
00:35:41.222 --> 00:35:42.931
I'm not the ideal client.
00:35:42.931 --> 00:35:51.273
But you do have a group of people and companies that created their product to be healthier, to be that next level.
00:35:51.273 --> 00:35:56.362
They're, they don't want to be Nestlé, M&M or any of the big food companies.
00:35:56.362 --> 00:36:01.032
They, they want to create a product that attracts people because of their own issues.
00:36:01.032 --> 00:36:03.452
Maybe they're allergic to nuts.
00:36:01.032 --> 00:36:07.414
So they created this great, you know, nut-free product, but they can't reach them.
00:36:07.414 --> 00:36:12.711
And they can't reach them because they don't understand all the reasons people need to go nut free.
00:36:12.711 --> 00:36:13.880
It's not just allergies.
00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:26.559
There's so many other things that people need to take in consideration that, until you get someone who can understand that and help you, you can't write even your marketing copy, if you don't understand what people are looking for.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:30.896
So how do you ask those right questions if you don't know what you need to look for to begin with?
00:36:30.896 --> 00:36:32.565
Mmm. Yeah.
00:36:32.565 --> 00:36:35.400
That makes, that makes a lot of sense.
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:36.318
Yeah.
00:36:36.318 --> 00:36:39.530
So you're almost like this—I shouldn't say almost.
00:36:39.530 --> 00:36:46.996
You are this catalyst for change and really rippling out, you know.
00:36:46.996 --> 00:36:50.833
I know you're just getting started with your Hidden Consumers project.
00:36:50.833 --> 00:36:52.210
Let's call it a project.
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:59.800
But, you know, really, when we talk about impacts, it's easy to see how you're going to make a huge impact.
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:05.764
And I'm just curious, like for you, how do you define or think about impact?
00:37:05.764 --> 00:37:11.811
Impact for me is you have a, you make a positive change on the world around you.
00:37:11.811 --> 00:37:18.860
I am looking to change the world, but I also understand my positive impact is day to day with the people I have regular interactions with.
00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:31.706
So one more person I talked to and got the message out to is one more person that's going to step back and say, “Wait, I need to do this differently?” Or “Wait, what happened there?” Right?
00:37:31.706 --> 00:37:33.208
Like it's going to make them stop.
00:37:33.208 --> 00:37:34.876
It's going to make them pause.
00:37:34.876 --> 00:37:36.378
That's the positive impact.
00:37:36.378 --> 00:37:37.963
I mean, I want to change the world.
00:37:37.963 --> 00:37:43.094
I want websites to accurately talk about what is in all the ingredients.
00:37:43.094 --> 00:37:55.523
I know you don't legally have to, but if you want consumers to buy your product and maybe they're right there on the edge and they're your hidden consumer, the more value you provide, the more likely they are to buy your product.
00:37:55.523 --> 00:37:57.440
So how do we do that?
00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.652
Because we can't get it all on a label, like...
00:37:59.652 --> 00:38:02.697
[Laughs]...we're not going to put this on a little package, like.
00:38:02.697 --> 00:38:08.369
It's going to have to be connected to your website, and we're gonna have to find ways to really get that message out to people.
00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:10.121
So that's, that's the impact.
00:38:10.121 --> 00:38:18.586
The impact is day to day, how do we spread the message, and then who will actually take that step up and be a leader in their industry to make those changes?
00:38:18.586 --> 00:38:20.880
Mmm. So, it's so exciting.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.092
It's really exciting to witness your journey.
00:38:23.092 --> 00:38:25.052
You know, I really mean that.
00:38:25.052 --> 00:38:33.436
And look forward to watching what happens when this book comes out and, you know, all the things that are going to come after that.
00:38:33.436 --> 00:38:41.110
So, with that said, how can people find the book and find you and connect with you?
00:38:41.110 --> 00:38:42.360
Tell us everything.
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.780
I'm so excited about this book, because I keep talking about it, right?
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:52.121
[Laughs] We are still working on some edits because my book was research-based to start with.
00:38:52.121 --> 00:38:54.581
It's really about having that conversation in the book.
00:38:54.581 --> 00:38:56.583
So it's, this is a two-part thing.
00:38:56.583 --> 00:39:08.971
Before the book comes out, I'm releasing my research in white papers, so you'll be able to see the back end of how I came to this viewpoint and why I say what I do, before you get the book.
00:39:08.971 --> 00:39:10.389
It's not for the faint of heart.
00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:13.768
My research was 80,000 words.
00:39:13.768 --> 00:39:21.483
Basically it was an 80,000-word academic paper was where I started to move the book into that conversation because I, I had to get all that research out.
00:39:21.483 --> 00:39:23.402
So that's going to be the white paper.
00:39:23.402 --> 00:39:29.199
The book itself is about that conversation and really talking through, what does that research mean?
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.911
Because most people don't understand research at the level I do.
00:39:31.911 --> 00:39:32.786
And I get it.
00:39:32.786 --> 00:39:36.414
So it's, how does that impact daily life?
00:39:36.414 --> 00:39:45.757
So even if you're a consumer and you're like, “What is this all about?” You're going to be able to pick up and read the book and understand what we're trying to do in the food industry.
00:39:45.757 --> 00:39:49.469
And if you pick up the book and you go, “I know someone,”...
00:39:49.469 --> 00:39:53.974
[Laughs]...you should recommend the book to people that are in the food industry.
00:39:53.974 --> 00:39:55.141
Trust me, they need this book.
00:39:55.141 --> 00:39:59.438
So the book itself is on my website, hiddenconsumersconsulting.com.
00:39:59.438 --> 00:40:03.525
It's under “The Book” because it's going to be The Book of 2025.
00:40:03.525 --> 00:40:04.652
That's what I'm saying.
00:40:04.652 --> 00:40:07.737
And, because we, you know, we love our own stuff, right?
00:40:07.737 --> 00:40:08.489
[Laughs]
00:40:08.489 --> 00:40:12.534
You, you can actually preorder this almost anywhere.
00:40:12.534 --> 00:40:20.418
I recommend you go through bookshop.org and put in your local bookstore and preorder through your local bookstore.
00:40:20.418 --> 00:40:29.427
For me, I'm going to, I actually will preorder my own book because I want to support Get Lit Books in Moreno Valley, but you can order this anywhere.
00:40:29.427 --> 00:40:30.802
I'm on Amazon.
00:40:30.802 --> 00:40:32.804
You can find my author page on Amazon.
00:40:32.804 --> 00:40:36.516
I'm going to be applying for a Goodreads page as well, so you'll be able to find me there.
00:40:36.516 --> 00:40:39.853
But, Target, Barnes and Noble, they're all good at pre-ordering.
00:40:39.853 --> 00:40:41.438
You, I mean, you can pick.
00:40:41.438 --> 00:40:42.898
So there are a list.
00:40:42.898 --> 00:40:52.449
I've got ten, ten links on my book page of all the places you can preorder the book through, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia.
00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:55.244
Oh, wow. Nice.
00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:55.244
And the name of the book again?
00:40:55.244 --> 00:41:00.916
Uncovering the Power of Health-Conscious Buyers.”
00:41:00.916 --> 00:41:03.668
Okay.
00:41:00.916 --> 00:41:03.668
Wonderful. By Amy Graves.
00:41:03.668 --> 00:41:06.672
By Amy Graves. I know. I’m an author.
00:41:06.672 --> 00:41:09.300
You’re an author. Congratulations.
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:15.556
And I have a second book that it's been written and it's been written for like six years, and I have yet to publish it.
00:41:15.556 --> 00:41:17.391
So we'll see how this one goes.
00:41:17.391 --> 00:41:19.518
Maybe the second book will come up faster.
00:41:19.518 --> 00:41:20.603
[Laughs]
00:41:20.603 --> 00:41:30.195
Okay, well, that's a whole other conversation, but that sounds very interesting and look forward to that one as well.
00:41:30.195 --> 00:41:48.505
But thank you, Amy, for taking the time to talk with us about accessibility, food issues, corn, impact, making your voice heard, getting access to all the things that all people should be able to access and enjoy.
00:41:48.505 --> 00:41:52.842
It's really interesting, inspiring, the work that you're doing.
00:41:52.842 --> 00:41:55.429
And I loved this conversation.
00:41:55.429 --> 00:41:56.554
Thank you.
00:41:56.554 --> 00:41:58.641
This was fun. This was my favorite interview. I loved this. [Laughs]
00:41:58.641 --> 00:42:00.266
Your favorite interview?
00:42:00.266 --> 00:42:02.978
Wow. Wow. That's fantastic.
00:42:02.978 --> 00:42:03.896
Thank you.
00:42:03.896 --> 00:42:09.485
[electronic music concludes]
00:42:09.485 --> 00:42:12.403
And now here's our Impact Tip of the Month.
00:42:12.403 --> 00:42:16.534
It's okay not to know everything, as long as you're taking small steps to learn.
00:42:16.534 --> 00:42:26.335
Consider courses on accessibility that are relevant to your business, such as the many web accessibility courses you can find on sites like Udemy, Coursera, or edX.
00:42:26.335 --> 00:42:31.590
[music fades up] Thanks for listening and make sure to do good in the world this month.
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:38.347
If you have questions you'd like us to address on the podcast, you can reach us at info@riveocreative.com.
00:42:38.347 --> 00:42:43.268
Subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on any of our incredible upcoming guests.
00:42:43.268 --> 00:42:45.563
We'll see you soon at the Riveo Impact Lab.
00:42:45.563 --> 00:42:53.695
[electronic music][electronic music concludes]
