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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and eat in project podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's an episode.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Over the next eight episodes, we're going to take eight of the core emotions one at a time and we're going to talk about what it's like to feel that emotion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What the gift of that emotion is, if we'll really feel it and walk into relationship with it Maybe what happens when we won't face it some of the breakdown and just what it's like for a family or community to live in a healthy way around Around that emotion, so just really looking forward to jumping in with you guys and getting after that as we get started Maybe I feel maybe to speak to why why are we gonna spend time on the eight core so people have seen the feelings will with a lot more emotions Maybe I start with with just eight
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, the subject of feelings, period can be literally the word can be overwhelming for people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think, oh, feelings, you know, and I don't say that to make fun, that's really true.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was true for me many years ago, and so it can be overwhelming to have all this word salad kind of pouring out at you from a wheel or a list.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a whittle down list of what really would use the word Cory motions do because just take a word like upset.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can be upset with you because I'm angry with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can be upset because you left.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm sad you're gone lonely for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can be upset because I'm afraid.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So those words, they tend to think about these eight words as the river.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a lot of tributaries that contribute to this river.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These eight core feeling.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we found that to be a really simple and very accurate way of describing the human condition emotionally without a whole lot of words, congratulations.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, that's really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so we're just going to go through anger and look at hurt, get lonely, sad, fear, shame, guilt and clad.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so those are the, that's where we're going.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The next couple episodes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And for this one though, let's talk about anger.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And Todd, what are we experiencing when we experience anger?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How would you define it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, it's what Phil is at earlier, you know, do the impairments and the gifts.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so when so many people get so confused with anger because, you know, historically, contextually for us, we hear angry, we think of rage, we think of just people going crazy, or just anger shutting down and being silently angry and like making someone pay through silence and that there's,
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think when we think of, we define anger for us, it's an expression God's given to us, the show us and to show others what matters to us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so what is it in me that God's placed in me that has to drive me to go after something?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think would,
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[SPEAKER_02]: and this podcast will really explore that feeling of hey what is God made you to do internally so you can have the passion to desire the fuel to go do whatever it has got to put inside of you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Todd, you mentioned the word passion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like the thing that anger might be that emotion that gets me off the couch to go do something in the world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe step into a vocation, maybe go after a justice issue.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of how you're seeing it off the plate when it's healthy?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a movement towards something.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, for sure.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, that's that's really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: As a part of your definition, Todd, you mentioned rage.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's, it's hard sometimes for us when we're getting that round of motions to understand the difference between anger and rage.
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you, how do you help us think about the ways those are actually different emotions?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, healthy anger would be a desire passion, a drive towards something.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You'd said earlier, you know, rages deconstruction and I believe anger is for construction like moving me towards something Okay, so rages is not helpful as dangerous as damaging the anger can be very positive It can be building something with someone else or for the world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that feels different I mean I've been around people who are silently raging and it just feels scary
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[SPEAKER_03]: When you're in their presence, I mean those are for me, the silent, the silent ones are the scariest ones for sure for sure okay, but if someone's angry it feels more like creative like they're here to help they're they're they really want to do good in the world they want good in the relationship they're they're just passionate about getting it right that's right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel maybe we could talk about what happens when someone is angry, but they won't be ill, honestly, with it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they're not aware of what's going on in their chest, or they've never been taught how to process it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What is the drawback for not feeling this feeling?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It really co-tails beautifully how Todd kind of framed up anger, you know, I've phrased it before that anger reveals that I care and what I care about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I don't have that movement, he talked about that constructive movement toward change or movement toward desire, I will depress that caring in me, which is called depression.
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[SPEAKER_01]: their care is broken, it's depressed and so we think about movement and clarity, having to do with anger and anger, having that revealing of the fact that I do care and what I care about depression is the opposite.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Depression is I will not care because when we feel angry and we're moving with clarity towards something in our anger and passion,
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[SPEAKER_01]: then it's going to be painful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to care.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to move.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to be clear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's vulnerable and painful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And depression says you don't have to have any of that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can just literally go to sleep or figuratively go to sleep and deep press all that care and all that pain and be out from under it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really interesting.
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[SPEAKER_03]: As I've heard this definition for you guys and it's started paying way more attention to the questions around, what does that person want that they've not been able to express?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So then you'll see it with let's say a mother who's just had a child and had to walk away from a career, had to walk away from some passion that they were doing in the world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's somehow been taken away and now not that raising a child isn't a beautiful thing it is, but they've lost access to some of that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: passion, some of that calling, that vocation, and it's been compressed and now we're depressed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So that's really helpful as a definition.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things to and it can be really my fear for the audience would be what Phil said we'll go unnoticed, anger is the most exposing and vulnerable of all the eight feelings.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's the thing that
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[SPEAKER_02]: because it's in me got to place it in me and it's like, oh man, if I go do this, I could fail at this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of times people will have the anger, but they get to that place of depression, either someone won't invoke that and then pull it out of them or they've historically been told.
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[SPEAKER_02]: you can't achieve that and so the exposure of anger it's so important so I don't know if you would want to share more about that feel but that when you he said that it was like man the audience really needs the we need to hone in on that for just a moment yeah that's so helpful I remember
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[SPEAKER_03]: My wife and I, we were feeling called to go plant a church in Portland, Oregon.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We were young.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember how vulnerable it was to say that out loud.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Some of the first people felt ridiculous.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like we could totally fail.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The thing that we're going to do is fare very difficult.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If we start going public with it, we're putting ourselves out there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And now we're kind of fill obligated to follow through on it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We fill obligated to people to be watching.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's almost an audience gathering and they're going to be like, hey,
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[SPEAKER_03]: you're gonna make it or not, you think this thing's gonna go anywhere?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, it is very vulnerable to say, hey, here's this passion that's growing inside of me, this thing I want to go do in the world, I can totally fail.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm here and you say maybe that's pressed, in some cases it's the fear of failure or the fear of rejection.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If I were not successful, is that kind of what you're getting at in terms of the vulnerability of just saying, I really want something to happen in the world, and I'm gonna go for it or not go for it, but it's in there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: right yeah these these feelings you know they parlay off of one another so that have some anger than you can fear and depression have shame with the anger so that the separate them would be as very hard but what you said like I can remember just times my own life of
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[SPEAKER_02]: having this something internally in me that wanted to get out of me, but then having outside voices, but like you can't do that, you can't do that, you won't be able to do that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so then I begin to doubt myself, I begin to doubt, like, God's call in my life, and then I'm just living this place of depression, like, oh.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it meant that drive was always there, and so I think, you know, in our stories, we got to be honest about what God has called us to, what we're angry about, so we can go, and we got to place people in our lives that can push us towards that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And these, again, these feelings aren't just the, you meant to have solo, they're meant to be done with other people in relationship with other people, so that people can pull them out of us and help us with that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and you said, maybe not inadvertently, you said something that has wide application and you said you put yourself out there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you, you know, yourself as a compound word, if you divide the word, that's what you're actually doing in anger, putting your identity, yourself out there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Vulnerably what you and Todd been talking about here recently so that's that's that's a really important glad Todd put that in there because you and then you you intuitively said something true in both ways put yourself out there and put yourself out there and vulnerability going after something
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's very vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I've heard you guys mention healthy anger, and that's a way of just caveating.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, we're not talking about rage.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about healthy anger, this passion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Where do we see that in the scriptures?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think of some examples where maybe we see an example of healthy anger that's not sinful at all, but maybe for somebody who doesn't know the difference between anger and rage, they might have it confused.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the most famous one, you know, is mentioned all the time, the cleaning of the temple.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, the most noticeable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there are many other places in Scripture where we see Jesus being angry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One of the maybe kind of understanding ones in Mark III, where he goes into the synagogue, and there's a man in there with a wither at hand.
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[SPEAKER_01]: or strong illusion of the fact this guy was a plant who has planted there to trap Jesus and Jesus knew what they were up to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It says he looked around in anger and sadness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He had feelings about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He cared about that man and cared about the big picture as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus just playing anger there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The scripture literally says he felt angry and
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[SPEAKER_01]: Paul shows up in Galatia, and Peter is acting one way with the Gentiles and Jews aren't around.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The Jews come to the town, and he acts to complete the different way, and Paul moved toward Peter in relationship and said, Peter, no, that this is not how we're doing this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there we look, we start reading scripture through an emotional lens.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We see a lot of examples in the planes of the temple, and
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the man with the withered hand and Jesus having this anger in him that says no, I care about these things I'm going to make movement toward and put myself out there to show that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love that Paul examples in Galatia I mean this idea, he said you're not living in line with the gospel.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and Paul was so committed to the gospel that anything that was going to confuse it, was going to tarnish it and was going to create a vision and a lack of unity between Jew and Gentile or whatever it was, he's like, I'm going to go after that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then gospel is too important for me to be passive.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to go and review him because he did it publicly.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to review him publicly.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to make sure everybody knows the gospel is actually this, not the way he's distorting it at this point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: like this is a good man, he's solid and we can talk about codependence on a later podcast, but he's confronting Peter about his codependency.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're living in two different ways.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're living in a duplicity this way and it's affecting other people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Paul had movement toward Peter relationally and lots of clarity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what's happening in these are the
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's almost a tipping point I feel like with with energy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, is it worth enough for me to take action or not?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm sitting on the fence deciding, am I going to confront Peter or not confront Peter?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And he runs that math and goes, no, no, no, no, the cost was way too important.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm getting off the couch and I'm going to go in and I'm going to tell him, hey, this, this is not okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of, a lot of healthy, anger, it's constructive.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's a great, great illustration.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What happens when we live in a community?
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[SPEAKER_03]: understands healthy anger or a church, which is an extended kind of family system.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What does it feel like to be in a community that knows how to deal with anger?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And one another and to receive others as their angry, yeah, what does it look and feel like to be in that community?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can give and Todd, I know you're waiting on this too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It happened yesterday with you two guys.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Three guys that were here yesterday.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Beautifully.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With Todd and I talked about it, and when we kind of hanging out in the evening, like, there was something that was communicated and before we even started you and Nathan, basically Eden Project, looked at 10 men and said, let's make sure we're real clear on some things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What do we, is there something we need to own in our relationship with each other, brothers and love one another and two organizations that are after the same thing, knowledge of God and knowledge of self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you three men beautifully demonstrated that to me and Todd just 24 hours ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you said, let's move into this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: as brothers, let's get clarity around what needs to be said to one another before we go any further with this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great example of how we are the body together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are in ministry together in partnership and we are brothers in Christ.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so you three,
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[SPEAKER_01]: honored the relationship we all have.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Todd and I wasn't weren't really aware of it that depth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You brought it here and said, let's put this out here in anger.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put this out here and deal with it as not so we can move forward, but as we move forward, let's make sure we're doing this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think we did that beautifully.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So, you're saying a community of anger, healthy anger, doesn't have as much unadressed elephants in the room.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's, like, let's have the conversation.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get underneath the unspoken.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Let's make sure that we're not making assumptions or we're not letting sweeping things on the road or something in relationship, but we're going after our unity earnestly.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to really live and work together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Martin Luther said that pure theology is calling a thing what it actually is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love that quote, it's anger, okay, it's beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what would you say as well, Todd just about, what does it feel like to be in a healthy family or community that knows how to process that?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And knows how to live into anger and maybe even encourage it, another people encourage passion, call things out in people that seem to be forming in their vocation and their gifts or something like that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're just speaking the truth in love.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you see Jesus do that all the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like he saw something.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It says all the time over and over.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Jesus had compassion to with passion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what we're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So angry people having a lot of compassion to call what they see.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what they see black or white.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's just call that out of people and to live in honest community around that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's really, really scary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like scary in my home, like I'm raising two little kids, a 12-year-old and a eight-year-old, and we're like, good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what this house will stand on is we will be in angry home that's willing to tell the truth to one another and confront what we see and not hide behind things because again you know with you at lunch and with Nathan at lunch and Phil we're talking we lived in homes that we weren't able to actually say what we saw.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we had to live and deny, we had to live with deep pressing what we saw.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But again, we all come from things and homes that we saw a lot and couldn't give voice to what we saw, and that's really damaging.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Really damaging.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about our kids, we talked about them finding their way, you know, they're discovering their gifts and way as we're watching them grow up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're kind of discovering things about them as well.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Think of a parent who
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[SPEAKER_03]: has anger for their kid to discover their kid's internal anger.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I have passion to make sure my daughter's each discover the thing they're made to do in the world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And to almost, if they're diminishing it or they're saying, I don't know if I'm really that good at that.
17:02.808 --> 17:07.036
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, it's like, no, no, let's fan that up into flame.
17:07.076 --> 17:07.958
[SPEAKER_03]: And don't let,
17:07.938 --> 17:33.169
[SPEAKER_03]: don't tamp yourself down like I want to call you into speaking to you and it's almost like that that sage mr. Miyagi like I see more in you than you see in you and i'm gonna have more healthy anger for what you're made to do than you have right now but i'm inviting you into that thing that is vulnerable so that thing that requires some courage to just name out loud and begin to take real steps towards towards doing
17:33.149 --> 17:58.853
[SPEAKER_03]: in the world and so I mean I hope we're doing that in our families and hope we're doing that in our churches right you're going around and you're seeing someone who's kind of on the sideline who probably has a lot more to give but they haven't been given permission maybe it's been unsafe in other communities or environments maybe their family of origin to really step out there maybe failure was crushing like if you don't do it perfect it's it's devastating so i'm just gonna play it save hang on the wall
17:58.833 --> 18:05.243
[SPEAKER_03]: and not take steps to actually be who I'm made to be in our church, our family, a kind of thing.
18:06.084 --> 18:08.909
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, any other thoughts on anger?
18:08.949 --> 18:11.973
[SPEAKER_03]: Things that you think, man, this is something I repeatedly see.
18:12.154 --> 18:20.166
[SPEAKER_03]: It's confusing for people or this needs to be highlighted as people are getting more acquainted with their own anger or the anger in the community that's constructive.
18:20.146 --> 18:32.466
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say the word you started to do the podcast with kind of referring to how even that word anger has so many things attached to it that aren't true, that aren't accurate.
18:32.526 --> 18:41.361
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, and we've got more podcast to do and several down the list is this feeling called fear that we'll talk about.
18:41.341 --> 18:56.583
[SPEAKER_01]: rage, which is what a lot of people think anger is, but one that maybe a principle, a couple of principles, as we're talking about anger, we have for years in the treatment center that Chip Dodd created back in 1996 and that I worked with him for many years in.
18:56.603 --> 19:07.298
[SPEAKER_01]: We used to tell the guys in treatment around these feelings that if you will identify the feeling out loud, if you will explore what the feeling is about.
19:07.278 --> 19:12.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Not as much as why you're feeling it, but what it's about and then express that to safe people or a safe person.
19:13.246 --> 19:15.609
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we mean by deal with your anger.
19:15.949 --> 19:17.631
[SPEAKER_01]: That means identify that it's anger.
19:17.691 --> 19:18.733
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm after something.
19:19.293 --> 19:24.159
[SPEAKER_01]: Explore what it's about, what I'm after, what it's attached to, what it's associated with.
19:24.580 --> 19:29.226
[SPEAKER_01]: And then express that out loud with voice, which is kind of one of the neat major needs.
19:29.266 --> 19:30.147
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets
19:30.127 --> 19:39.403
[SPEAKER_01]: revealed by feeling anger like I need, I need expression of this, which is that vulnerability piece that you and Todd talked about at length a few minutes ago.
19:39.423 --> 19:53.046
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say that for one thing, as I remember all of these feelings, it's identifying what it is, and then moving forward into the exploration and then even more vulnerability into the expression of it to go back to what Todd said.
19:53.026 --> 19:59.977
[SPEAKER_01]: It's at expression part of that where the vulnerability of the rubber really meets the road which is what makes this one the most vulnerable.
20:00.478 --> 20:06.548
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm putting myself out there and you may do something with myself that's going to be painful.
20:07.409 --> 20:09.653
[SPEAKER_03]: So we spent some time defining anger.
20:09.673 --> 20:11.616
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about the difference between anger and rage.
20:11.656 --> 20:17.245
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk a little bit about what happens with someone who will not really adequately acknowledge their anger.
20:17.225 --> 20:20.972
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's there, but they won't look at it or they won't tell the truth about it.
20:21.353 --> 20:24.779
[SPEAKER_03]: What starts to happen in a person who has an impairment around their anger?
20:24.839 --> 20:26.602
[SPEAKER_03]: And is it dealing honestly with it?
20:27.604 --> 20:36.921
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you think about what Todd said earlier about movement, like the anger says I'm moving towards something, I want something, I want something.
20:36.901 --> 20:44.552
[SPEAKER_01]: in the impairment of that, like if I don't deal with my anger will, I will depress my caring.
20:45.433 --> 20:46.575
[SPEAKER_01]: That's called depression.
20:47.236 --> 21:00.394
[SPEAKER_01]: I will make sure that I am isolated emotionally, and I'm keeping it at a low grade because I don't want any of that desire for clarity and movement and I want anyone seeing that I care or what I care about.
21:00.374 --> 21:10.275
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to move into my isolated place called depression when I'm depressing that passion, zeal, desire, yearning, reaching those kinds of things.
21:10.356 --> 21:19.395
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,
21:19.780 --> 21:48.488
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, as you said that on the wide for the first time I started thinking about maybe countries that are under significant oppression like from a dictator and you just you can't own property, you can't start a business, you can't take action with life and then could have an entire country that's depressed because there is no outlet for their vision, their passion, the thing they want to do in the world, it's just camp down or maybe like a
21:48.468 --> 21:51.331
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a collective experience of everybody there.
21:51.351 --> 21:51.992
[SPEAKER_03]: It's depressed.
21:52.012 --> 22:12.096
[SPEAKER_03]: They can't actually express what they want Yeah, maybe talk you can speak about isolation if let's say we we stay in that depressed state Not feeling our anger not telling a truth about it not dealing honestly with it for an extended period of time in isolation Like what starts to happen in a person over maybe maybe it's many years of not dealing with healthy anger
22:12.076 --> 22:18.987
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's two sides of this coin, so and I'll share one side now, I'll share the other side, it's self-willed one riot.
22:19.087 --> 22:24.115
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's when I am going to really be destructive in my life to get what I want.
22:24.155 --> 22:28.342
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the rooms of A, A, they will say, I won't want to want to want to want to want it.
22:28.362 --> 22:29.925
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get it at all cost.
22:30.145 --> 22:36.295
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it will look like it's driven towards something, but it's
22:36.275 --> 22:55.752
[SPEAKER_02]: destructive in the way it's not constructive in the way as when we said no passion is constructive i'm may i'm blazing a trail to get what i want okay and and then there's just just pieces and people and just shards of people around me uh... at all costs uh... for that place of fulfillment okay so
22:55.732 --> 22:59.017
[SPEAKER_03]: So integrity goes out the window, a character, right?
22:59.297 --> 23:01.561
[SPEAKER_03]: If I want money, I'm going to still lie cheat and steal.
23:01.621 --> 23:03.424
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll find out a way to get to it.
23:03.464 --> 23:06.368
[SPEAKER_03]: It won't necessarily be the constructive path that's good and right.
23:06.488 --> 23:10.054
[SPEAKER_03]: It'll be a backdoor, short cut, lacking integrity.
23:10.094 --> 23:11.896
[SPEAKER_03]: Not concerned with others, relationally.
23:12.177 --> 23:14.120
[SPEAKER_02]: Go have no relationship in it at all.
23:14.520 --> 23:14.981
[SPEAKER_02]: Any sort.
23:15.001 --> 23:18.787
[SPEAKER_02]: There will be no relationship other than I'm going to use you to get what I want.
23:18.867 --> 23:21.270
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's not a collaborative relationship.
23:21.310 --> 23:24.355
[SPEAKER_02]: It then becomes a transactional relationship, but not a true.
23:24.335 --> 23:29.506
[SPEAKER_02]: vulnerability of me bringing me to you through my anger to say help me get to this.
23:29.967 --> 23:34.055
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to use you to get to this For porn is one of those places.
23:34.596 --> 23:35.779
[SPEAKER_02]: My anger took me to porn.
23:35.939 --> 23:37.422
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to get what I wanted when I wanted.
23:37.522 --> 23:41.871
[SPEAKER_02]: And the person on the screen was just a means to an end
23:41.851 --> 23:42.532
[SPEAKER_02]: for me.
23:43.053 --> 23:46.700
[SPEAKER_02]: But it wasn't actually to do anything relationally with anyone.
23:46.860 --> 24:01.547
[SPEAKER_02]: It was to fulfill something that was lacking in me, which was the place of depression of, and my life, I can't actually do what I want to do, so I'm going to find other places to do what I want to do, to find the fulfillment that I can't actually go do.
24:01.612 --> 24:18.675
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking passion maybe you take people with you towards a cause in a constructive and relational way and the isolated it's like it's totally self self driven self will without regard for relationship or anyone else there's no one else with you other than the instruments that you trust for self.
24:18.655 --> 24:19.476
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's helpful.
24:19.977 --> 24:20.979
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, how would you do on to that?
24:21.019 --> 24:23.083
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think self-will run riot, that's an A.A.
24:23.443 --> 24:23.964
[SPEAKER_00]: Staying men.
24:24.185 --> 24:25.086
[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it for many years.
24:25.126 --> 24:34.082
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't always been able to meetly grab it and understand what it means, but feel how would you do on, even with Todd said, about self-will as it relates to anger and being impaired?
24:34.062 --> 24:58.973
[SPEAKER_01]: Todd covered you know how the you would just you could call it the aggressive side of that like people who will not deal with healthy clear anger do what Todd described and the other side of that is the passive side and that was more of kind of was my ammo when I was in my own depression I became frozen in the isolation self will run riot by refusal
24:58.953 --> 25:00.055
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to show up.
25:00.395 --> 25:01.537
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be vulnerable.
25:02.038 --> 25:05.203
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be in this house, literally, the shade drawn.
25:05.663 --> 25:08.929
[SPEAKER_01]: Even when I'm outside this physical house, my shade just still going to be drawn.
25:09.590 --> 25:14.137
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to show up and really participate with my heart and soul in mind in this.
25:14.197 --> 25:15.439
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be vulnerable.
25:15.479 --> 25:17.161
[SPEAKER_01]: So no one can make me care.
25:17.202 --> 25:20.106
[SPEAKER_01]: No one can make me reveal what I'm really after.
25:20.126 --> 25:21.388
[SPEAKER_01]: No one can make me.
25:21.408 --> 25:25.855
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the language of self where I run right is no one can make me.
25:25.835 --> 25:31.640
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's in there's the aggressive sort of speaks out of the Todd was talking about and there's the passive side of them.
25:31.660 --> 25:32.961
[SPEAKER_01]: But both are saying the same things.
25:32.981 --> 25:43.471
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll will run riot is the classically in AA, but for whomever the person who's stuck into pressure so long it moves into this territory of you can't make me.
25:43.991 --> 25:55.842
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what so dog it about depression think about if people watching and listening us here if you've ever tried to talk someone who's depressed out of being depressed is not happening.
25:55.822 --> 25:59.148
[SPEAKER_01]: Because self will run riot, you can't make me show up.
26:00.410 --> 26:01.011
[SPEAKER_01]: I will not.
26:01.492 --> 26:06.139
[SPEAKER_01]: So that self will, it becomes hardened and the person becomes in utter isolation.
26:06.159 --> 26:09.705
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another category here later on, but they become so isolated.
26:10.126 --> 26:13.993
[SPEAKER_01]: They alone call the shots about destructively disintegrating everything in their path.
26:14.013 --> 26:19.602
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Todd's talking about, are shutting the doors and windows emotionally or literally and saying, you can't make me do that.
26:19.919 --> 26:20.701
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
26:20.721 --> 26:23.988
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, as you were talking, it was a little bit of like, I'll take my ball and go home.
26:24.329 --> 26:25.411
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not playing with y'all.
26:25.451 --> 26:26.774
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing this with y'all anymore.
26:26.875 --> 26:27.716
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't make me.
26:27.957 --> 26:28.358
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm out.
26:28.618 --> 26:29.200
[SPEAKER_03]: Relationally.
26:29.340 --> 26:30.663
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing anything.
26:31.445 --> 26:32.267
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's helpful.
26:32.307 --> 26:35.073
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are really helpful distinctions when we think about anger.
26:35.133 --> 26:36.055
[SPEAKER_03]: Um,
26:36.035 --> 26:37.297
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the language of gift.
26:37.397 --> 26:38.599
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a gift that God gave us.
26:38.759 --> 26:42.163
[SPEAKER_03]: It's something that lets us know what we should be moving towards, that we have a telos.
26:42.304 --> 26:43.906
[SPEAKER_03]: We have purpose, we have vocation.
26:44.026 --> 26:44.667
[SPEAKER_03]: We have meaning.
26:44.687 --> 26:46.409
[SPEAKER_03]: There's things to do in the world at matter.
26:46.630 --> 26:47.611
[SPEAKER_03]: There are people that matter.
26:47.951 --> 26:52.498
[SPEAKER_03]: We should have anger for and God say, and hey, get out of the bed and go after it.
26:52.518 --> 26:54.140
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, go pursue things that matter.
26:54.180 --> 26:57.144
[SPEAKER_03]: Help contribute with your gifts in the world at matter.
26:57.164 --> 27:04.995
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, I hope, and listen to this episode, you guys are getting clarity around anger, even healthy
27:04.975 --> 27:07.498
[SPEAKER_03]: around what happens if we won't deal honestly with it.
27:07.999 --> 27:09.681
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be depressed, right?
27:09.701 --> 27:16.270
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want people around me to be depressed and not able to express so God's made the way to do and to guess in the world.
27:17.752 --> 27:20.836
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed podcast.
27:20.856 --> 27:30.369
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
27:31.330 --> 27:31.911
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
00:02.680 --> 00:19.181
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Reform and eat in project podcasts and bracing the beauty and brokenness in your journey with God.
00:19.201 --> 00:20.863
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an episode.
00:20.883 --> 00:28.553
[SPEAKER_03]: Over the next eight episodes, we're going to take eight of the core emotions one at a time and we're going to talk about what it's like to feel that emotion.
00:28.533 --> 00:56.076
[SPEAKER_03]: What the gift of that emotion is, if we'll really feel it and walk into relationship with it Maybe what happens when we won't face it some of the breakdown and just what it's like for a family or community to live in a healthy way around Around that emotion, so just really looking forward to jumping in with you guys and getting after that as we get started Maybe I feel maybe to speak to why why are we gonna spend time on the eight core so people have seen the feelings will with a lot more emotions Maybe I start with with just eight
00:56.444 --> 01:02.592
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, the subject of feelings, period can be literally the word can be overwhelming for people.
01:02.612 --> 01:06.598
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, oh, feelings, you know, and I don't say that to make fun, that's really true.
01:06.638 --> 01:15.870
[SPEAKER_01]: It was true for me many years ago, and so it can be overwhelming to have all this word salad kind of pouring out at you from a wheel or a list.
01:15.930 --> 01:24.662
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a whittle down list of what really would use the word Cory motions do because just take a word like upset.
01:24.642 --> 01:28.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can be upset with you because I'm angry with you.
01:28.207 --> 01:30.610
[SPEAKER_01]: I can be upset because you left.
01:30.690 --> 01:32.713
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm sad you're gone lonely for you.
01:32.733 --> 01:34.776
[SPEAKER_01]: I can be upset because I'm afraid.
01:35.277 --> 01:39.022
[SPEAKER_01]: So those words, they tend to think about these eight words as the river.
01:39.082 --> 01:43.047
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a lot of tributaries that contribute to this river.
01:43.408 --> 01:44.409
[SPEAKER_01]: These eight core feeling.
01:44.449 --> 01:53.181
[SPEAKER_01]: So we found that to be a really simple and very accurate way of describing the human condition emotionally without a whole lot of words, congratulations.
01:53.161 --> 01:54.683
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, that's really helpful.
01:55.124 --> 02:04.195
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so we're just going to go through anger and look at hurt, get lonely, sad, fear, shame, guilt and clad.
02:04.255 --> 02:05.757
[SPEAKER_03]: And so those are the, that's where we're going.
02:06.118 --> 02:07.139
[SPEAKER_03]: The next couple episodes.
02:07.159 --> 02:09.402
[SPEAKER_03]: And for this one though, let's talk about anger.
02:09.422 --> 02:13.107
[SPEAKER_03]: And Todd, what are we experiencing when we experience anger?
02:13.127 --> 02:13.988
[SPEAKER_03]: How would you define it?
02:14.778 --> 02:19.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, again, it's what Phil is at earlier, you know, do the impairments and the gifts.
02:19.764 --> 02:39.148
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when so many people get so confused with anger because, you know, historically, contextually for us, we hear angry, we think of rage, we think of just people going crazy, or just anger shutting down and being silently angry and like making someone pay through silence and that there's,
02:39.128 --> 02:48.589
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think when we think of, we define anger for us, it's an expression God's given to us, the show us and to show others what matters to us.
02:48.950 --> 02:54.242
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what is it in me that God's placed in me that has to drive me to go after something?
02:54.562 --> 02:57.188
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think would,
02:57.168 --> 03:10.384
[SPEAKER_02]: and this podcast will really explore that feeling of hey what is God made you to do internally so you can have the passion to desire the fuel to go do whatever it has got to put inside of you.
03:10.567 --> 03:12.470
[SPEAKER_03]: Todd, you mentioned the word passion.
03:12.490 --> 03:19.382
[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like the thing that anger might be that emotion that gets me off the couch to go do something in the world.
03:19.743 --> 03:23.369
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe step into a vocation, maybe go after a justice issue.
03:23.749 --> 03:25.873
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of how you're seeing it off the plate when it's healthy?
03:26.033 --> 03:26.514
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
03:26.815 --> 03:28.457
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a movement towards something.
03:28.938 --> 03:30.060
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, for sure.
03:30.243 --> 03:32.166
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, that's that's really helpful.
03:32.546 --> 03:35.530
[SPEAKER_03]: As a part of your definition, Todd, you mentioned rage.
03:36.612 --> 03:42.340
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's, it's hard sometimes for us when we're getting that round of motions to understand the difference between anger and rage.
03:42.820 --> 03:46.565
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you, how do you help us think about the ways those are actually different emotions?
03:46.806 --> 03:52.133
[SPEAKER_02]: So, healthy anger would be a desire passion, a drive towards something.
03:52.113 --> 04:10.934
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd said earlier, you know, rages deconstruction and I believe anger is for construction like moving me towards something Okay, so rages is not helpful as dangerous as damaging the anger can be very positive It can be building something with someone else or for the world.
04:11.074 --> 04:11.535
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
04:11.555 --> 04:11.815
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
04:11.835 --> 04:18.222
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that feels different I mean I've been around people who are silently raging and it just feels scary
04:18.202 --> 04:37.088
[SPEAKER_03]: When you're in their presence, I mean those are for me, the silent, the silent ones are the scariest ones for sure for sure okay, but if someone's angry it feels more like creative like they're here to help they're they're they really want to do good in the world they want good in the relationship they're they're just passionate about getting it right that's right.
04:37.068 --> 04:37.629
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
04:37.649 --> 04:38.571
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really helpful.
04:39.813 --> 04:44.783
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel maybe we could talk about what happens when someone is angry, but they won't be ill, honestly, with it.
04:44.803 --> 04:48.831
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they're not aware of what's going on in their chest, or they've never been taught how to process it.
04:49.232 --> 04:51.516
[SPEAKER_03]: What is the drawback for not feeling this feeling?
04:51.850 --> 05:02.166
[SPEAKER_01]: It really co-tails beautifully how Todd kind of framed up anger, you know, I've phrased it before that anger reveals that I care and what I care about.
05:02.968 --> 05:18.212
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I don't have that movement, he talked about that constructive movement toward change or movement toward desire, I will depress that caring in me, which is called depression.
05:18.192 --> 05:33.035
[SPEAKER_01]: their care is broken, it's depressed and so we think about movement and clarity, having to do with anger and anger, having that revealing of the fact that I do care and what I care about depression is the opposite.
05:33.095 --> 05:41.668
[SPEAKER_01]: Depression is I will not care because when we feel angry and we're moving with clarity towards something in our anger and passion,
05:41.648 --> 05:43.030
[SPEAKER_01]: then it's going to be painful.
05:43.851 --> 05:44.873
[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to care.
05:45.133 --> 05:46.235
[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to move.
05:46.275 --> 05:47.516
[SPEAKER_01]: It's painful to be clear.
05:47.536 --> 05:48.678
[SPEAKER_01]: It's vulnerable and painful.
05:49.279 --> 05:51.622
[SPEAKER_01]: And depression says you don't have to have any of that.
05:51.863 --> 06:00.535
[SPEAKER_01]: You can just literally go to sleep or figuratively go to sleep and deep press all that care and all that pain and be out from under it.
06:00.970 --> 06:01.330
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
06:01.971 --> 06:02.852
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really interesting.
06:02.952 --> 06:12.281
[SPEAKER_03]: As I've heard this definition for you guys and it's started paying way more attention to the questions around, what does that person want that they've not been able to express?
06:12.782 --> 06:20.730
[SPEAKER_03]: So then you'll see it with let's say a mother who's just had a child and had to walk away from a career, had to walk away from some passion that they were doing in the world.
06:20.770 --> 06:28.598
[SPEAKER_03]: That's somehow been taken away and now not that raising a child isn't a beautiful thing it is, but they've lost access to some of that.
06:28.578 --> 06:34.247
[SPEAKER_03]: passion, some of that calling, that vocation, and it's been compressed and now we're depressed.
06:34.267 --> 06:36.751
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's really helpful as a definition.
06:37.352 --> 06:49.471
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things to and it can be really my fear for the audience would be what Phil said we'll go unnoticed, anger is the most exposing and vulnerable of all the eight feelings.
06:49.571 --> 06:50.873
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the thing that
06:50.853 --> 06:56.245
[SPEAKER_02]: because it's in me got to place it in me and it's like, oh man, if I go do this, I could fail at this.
06:56.345 --> 07:06.988
[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of times people will have the anger, but they get to that place of depression, either someone won't invoke that and then pull it out of them or they've historically been told.
07:06.968 --> 07:23.391
[SPEAKER_02]: you can't achieve that and so the exposure of anger it's so important so I don't know if you would want to share more about that feel but that when you he said that it was like man the audience really needs the we need to hone in on that for just a moment yeah that's so helpful I remember
07:23.371 --> 07:26.796
[SPEAKER_03]: My wife and I, we were feeling called to go plant a church in Portland, Oregon.
07:26.836 --> 07:27.437
[SPEAKER_03]: We were young.
07:27.477 --> 07:30.781
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember how vulnerable it was to say that out loud.
07:30.982 --> 07:33.425
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of the first people felt ridiculous.
07:33.505 --> 07:35.348
[SPEAKER_03]: It felt like we could totally fail.
07:35.368 --> 07:37.691
[SPEAKER_03]: The thing that we're going to do is fare very difficult.
07:38.352 --> 07:41.937
[SPEAKER_03]: If we start going public with it, we're putting ourselves out there.
07:42.317 --> 07:44.781
[SPEAKER_03]: And now we're kind of fill obligated to follow through on it.
07:44.901 --> 07:46.603
[SPEAKER_03]: We fill obligated to people to be watching.
07:46.663 --> 07:49.227
[SPEAKER_03]: There's almost an audience gathering and they're going to be like, hey,
07:49.207 --> 07:51.550
[SPEAKER_03]: you're gonna make it or not, you think this thing's gonna go anywhere?
07:51.590 --> 07:59.399
[SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, it is very vulnerable to say, hey, here's this passion that's growing inside of me, this thing I want to go do in the world, I can totally fail.
07:59.979 --> 08:06.807
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm here and you say maybe that's pressed, in some cases it's the fear of failure or the fear of rejection.
08:07.087 --> 08:16.378
[SPEAKER_03]: If I were not successful, is that kind of what you're getting at in terms of the vulnerability of just saying, I really want something to happen in the world, and I'm gonna go for it or not go for it, but it's in there.
08:16.358 --> 08:32.764
[SPEAKER_02]: right yeah these these feelings you know they parlay off of one another so that have some anger than you can fear and depression have shame with the anger so that the separate them would be as very hard but what you said like I can remember just times my own life of
08:32.744 --> 08:40.282
[SPEAKER_02]: having this something internally in me that wanted to get out of me, but then having outside voices, but like you can't do that, you can't do that, you won't be able to do that.
08:40.483 --> 08:48.542
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then I begin to doubt myself, I begin to doubt, like, God's call in my life, and then I'm just living this place of depression, like, oh.
08:48.522 --> 09:03.139
[SPEAKER_02]: But it meant that drive was always there, and so I think, you know, in our stories, we got to be honest about what God has called us to, what we're angry about, so we can go, and we got to place people in our lives that can push us towards that.
09:03.239 --> 09:14.091
[SPEAKER_02]: And these, again, these feelings aren't just the, you meant to have solo, they're meant to be done with other people in relationship with other people, so that people can pull them out of us and help us with that.
09:14.290 --> 09:25.549
[SPEAKER_01]: and you said, maybe not inadvertently, you said something that has wide application and you said you put yourself out there.
09:25.589 --> 09:34.965
[SPEAKER_01]: If you, you know, yourself as a compound word, if you divide the word, that's what you're actually doing in anger, putting your identity, yourself out there.
09:34.945 --> 09:52.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Vulnerably what you and Todd been talking about here recently so that's that's that's a really important glad Todd put that in there because you and then you you intuitively said something true in both ways put yourself out there and put yourself out there and vulnerability going after something
09:52.327 --> 09:53.109
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very vulnerable.
09:53.429 --> 09:54.051
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
09:54.071 --> 09:58.319
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've heard you guys mention healthy anger, and that's a way of just caveating.
09:58.339 --> 09:59.261
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, we're not talking about rage.
09:59.301 --> 10:01.366
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about healthy anger, this passion.
10:01.927 --> 10:03.009
[SPEAKER_03]: Where do we see that in the scriptures?
10:03.410 --> 10:13.170
[SPEAKER_03]: I think of some examples where maybe we see an example of healthy anger that's not sinful at all, but maybe for somebody who doesn't know the difference between anger and rage, they might have it confused.
10:14.905 --> 10:19.553
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the most famous one, you know, is mentioned all the time, the cleaning of the temple.
10:20.234 --> 10:22.098
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, the most noticeable.
10:22.118 --> 10:26.766
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there are many other places in Scripture where we see Jesus being angry.
10:27.447 --> 10:33.538
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the maybe kind of understanding ones in Mark III, where he goes into the synagogue, and there's a man in there with a wither at hand.
10:33.518 --> 10:38.924
[SPEAKER_01]: or strong illusion of the fact this guy was a plant who has planted there to trap Jesus and Jesus knew what they were up to.
10:39.445 --> 10:42.328
[SPEAKER_01]: It says he looked around in anger and sadness.
10:42.769 --> 10:44.531
[SPEAKER_01]: He had feelings about it.
10:44.591 --> 10:48.976
[SPEAKER_01]: He cared about that man and cared about the big picture as well.
10:49.056 --> 10:51.699
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jesus just playing anger there.
10:51.719 --> 10:55.223
[SPEAKER_01]: The scripture literally says he felt angry and
10:55.203 --> 11:02.271
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul shows up in Galatia, and Peter is acting one way with the Gentiles and Jews aren't around.
11:02.311 --> 11:11.842
[SPEAKER_01]: The Jews come to the town, and he acts to complete the different way, and Paul moved toward Peter in relationship and said, Peter, no, that this is not how we're doing this.
11:12.363 --> 11:15.546
[SPEAKER_01]: So there we look, we start reading scripture through an emotional lens.
11:15.606 --> 11:18.730
[SPEAKER_01]: We see a lot of examples in the planes of the temple, and
11:18.710 --> 11:28.977
[SPEAKER_01]: And the man with the withered hand and Jesus having this anger in him that says no, I care about these things I'm going to make movement toward and put myself out there to show that.
11:29.217 --> 11:34.812
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that Paul examples in Galatia I mean this idea, he said you're not living in line with the gospel.
11:34.792 --> 11:46.605
[SPEAKER_03]: and Paul was so committed to the gospel that anything that was going to confuse it, was going to tarnish it and was going to create a vision and a lack of unity between Jew and Gentile or whatever it was, he's like, I'm going to go after that.
11:46.685 --> 11:49.929
[SPEAKER_03]: And then gospel is too important for me to be passive.
11:49.969 --> 11:52.371
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to go and review him because he did it publicly.
11:52.391 --> 11:53.673
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got to review him publicly.
11:53.713 --> 12:03.904
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to make sure everybody knows the gospel is actually this, not the way he's distorting it at this point.
12:03.884 --> 12:11.593
[SPEAKER_01]: like this is a good man, he's solid and we can talk about codependence on a later podcast, but he's confronting Peter about his codependency.
12:11.994 --> 12:14.097
[SPEAKER_01]: You're living in two different ways.
12:14.117 --> 12:17.741
[SPEAKER_01]: You're living in a duplicity this way and it's affecting other people.
12:18.442 --> 12:22.667
[SPEAKER_01]: So Paul had movement toward Peter relationally and lots of clarity.
12:23.248 --> 12:29.115
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what's happening in these are the
12:29.568 --> 12:32.591
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's almost a tipping point I feel like with with energy.
12:32.611 --> 12:35.714
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, is it worth enough for me to take action or not?
12:36.074 --> 12:40.218
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm sitting on the fence deciding, am I going to confront Peter or not confront Peter?
12:40.278 --> 12:44.101
[SPEAKER_03]: And he runs that math and goes, no, no, no, no, the cost was way too important.
12:44.321 --> 12:49.226
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm getting off the couch and I'm going to go in and I'm going to tell him, hey, this, this is not okay.
12:49.246 --> 12:52.589
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of, a lot of healthy, anger, it's constructive.
12:53.189 --> 12:54.651
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a great, great illustration.
12:55.451 --> 12:56.712
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really helpful.
12:56.732 --> 12:59.575
[SPEAKER_03]: What happens when we live in a community?
12:59.555 --> 13:04.065
[SPEAKER_03]: understands healthy anger or a church, which is an extended kind of family system.
13:04.867 --> 13:08.575
[SPEAKER_03]: What does it feel like to be in a community that knows how to deal with anger?
13:08.956 --> 13:15.049
[SPEAKER_03]: And one another and to receive others as their angry, yeah, what does it look and feel like to be in that community?
13:15.029 --> 13:17.392
[SPEAKER_01]: I can give and Todd, I know you're waiting on this too.
13:17.672 --> 13:21.056
[SPEAKER_01]: It happened yesterday with you two guys.
13:21.476 --> 13:22.677
[SPEAKER_01]: Three guys that were here yesterday.
13:23.318 --> 13:23.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautifully.
13:23.979 --> 13:41.458
[SPEAKER_01]: With Todd and I talked about it, and when we kind of hanging out in the evening, like, there was something that was communicated and before we even started you and Nathan, basically Eden Project, looked at 10 men and said, let's make sure we're real clear on some things.
13:41.438 --> 13:52.933
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we, is there something we need to own in our relationship with each other, brothers and love one another and two organizations that are after the same thing, knowledge of God and knowledge of self.
13:53.353 --> 13:58.560
[SPEAKER_01]: So you three men beautifully demonstrated that to me and Todd just 24 hours ago.
13:58.740 --> 14:01.624
[SPEAKER_01]: When you said, let's move into this.
14:01.604 --> 14:09.222
[SPEAKER_01]: as brothers, let's get clarity around what needs to be said to one another before we go any further with this.
14:09.302 --> 14:12.770
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great example of how we are the body together.
14:12.871 --> 14:17.181
[SPEAKER_01]: We are in ministry together in partnership and we are brothers in Christ.
14:17.502 --> 14:19.326
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you three,
14:19.306 --> 14:21.369
[SPEAKER_01]: honored the relationship we all have.
14:21.429 --> 14:24.775
[SPEAKER_01]: Todd and I wasn't weren't really aware of it that depth.
14:24.835 --> 14:27.980
[SPEAKER_01]: You brought it here and said, let's put this out here in anger.
14:28.221 --> 14:36.454
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put this out here and deal with it as not so we can move forward, but as we move forward, let's make sure we're doing this.
14:36.434 --> 14:36.754
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
14:36.775 --> 14:37.816
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we did that beautifully.
14:38.177 --> 14:38.277
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
14:38.297 --> 14:38.758
[SPEAKER_03]: That's helpful.
14:38.818 --> 14:44.526
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you're saying a community of anger, healthy anger, doesn't have as much unadressed elephants in the room.
14:44.566 --> 14:46.630
[SPEAKER_03]: There's, like, let's have the conversation.
14:46.690 --> 14:49.133
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get underneath the unspoken.
14:49.193 --> 14:57.947
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's make sure that we're not making assumptions or we're not letting sweeping things on the road or something in relationship, but we're going after our unity earnestly.
14:57.967 --> 15:00.130
[SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to really live and work together.
15:00.110 --> 15:05.038
[SPEAKER_01]: Martin Luther said that pure theology is calling a thing what it actually is.
15:05.058 --> 15:09.184
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that quote, it's anger, okay, it's beautiful.
15:09.605 --> 15:16.035
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what would you say as well, Todd just about, what does it feel like to be in a healthy family or community that knows how to process that?
15:16.136 --> 15:26.472
[SPEAKER_03]: And knows how to live into anger and maybe even encourage it, another people encourage passion, call things out in people that seem to be forming in their vocation and their gifts or something like that.
15:26.452 --> 15:28.277
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're just speaking the truth in love.
15:29.440 --> 15:31.144
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see Jesus do that all the time.
15:31.364 --> 15:32.608
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he saw something.
15:33.369 --> 15:34.733
[SPEAKER_02]: It says all the time over and over.
15:34.753 --> 15:37.560
[SPEAKER_02]: Jesus had compassion to with passion.
15:37.881 --> 15:39.064
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what we're talking about.
15:39.084 --> 15:43.515
[SPEAKER_02]: So angry people having a lot of compassion to call what they see.
15:43.495 --> 15:45.680
[SPEAKER_02]: what they see black or white.
15:45.720 --> 15:51.774
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's just call that out of people and to live in honest community around that.
15:51.875 --> 15:53.839
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really, really scary.
15:53.859 --> 15:59.833
[SPEAKER_02]: Like scary in my home, like I'm raising two little kids, a 12-year-old and a eight-year-old, and we're like, good.
15:59.813 --> 16:20.809
[SPEAKER_02]: what this house will stand on is we will be in angry home that's willing to tell the truth to one another and confront what we see and not hide behind things because again you know with you at lunch and with Nathan at lunch and Phil we're talking we lived in homes that we weren't able to actually say what we saw.
16:20.789 --> 16:24.153
[SPEAKER_02]: So we had to live and deny, we had to live with deep pressing what we saw.
16:25.594 --> 16:33.383
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, we all come from things and homes that we saw a lot and couldn't give voice to what we saw, and that's really damaging.
16:34.064 --> 16:34.745
[SPEAKER_02]: Really damaging.
16:35.165 --> 16:36.287
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love that.
16:36.967 --> 16:43.054
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about our kids, we talked about them finding their way, you know, they're discovering their gifts and way as we're watching them grow up.
16:43.114 --> 16:45.157
[SPEAKER_03]: We're kind of discovering things about them as well.
16:45.717 --> 16:48.180
[SPEAKER_03]: Think of a parent who
16:48.160 --> 16:52.088
[SPEAKER_03]: has anger for their kid to discover their kid's internal anger.
16:52.548 --> 16:57.538
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I have passion to make sure my daughter's each discover the thing they're made to do in the world.
16:57.979 --> 17:02.788
[SPEAKER_03]: And to almost, if they're diminishing it or they're saying, I don't know if I'm really that good at that.
17:02.808 --> 17:07.036
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, it's like, no, no, let's fan that up into flame.
17:07.076 --> 17:07.958
[SPEAKER_03]: And don't let,
17:07.938 --> 17:33.169
[SPEAKER_03]: don't tamp yourself down like I want to call you into speaking to you and it's almost like that that sage mr. Miyagi like I see more in you than you see in you and i'm gonna have more healthy anger for what you're made to do than you have right now but i'm inviting you into that thing that is vulnerable so that thing that requires some courage to just name out loud and begin to take real steps towards towards doing
17:33.149 --> 17:58.853
[SPEAKER_03]: in the world and so I mean I hope we're doing that in our families and hope we're doing that in our churches right you're going around and you're seeing someone who's kind of on the sideline who probably has a lot more to give but they haven't been given permission maybe it's been unsafe in other communities or environments maybe their family of origin to really step out there maybe failure was crushing like if you don't do it perfect it's it's devastating so i'm just gonna play it save hang on the wall
17:58.833 --> 18:05.243
[SPEAKER_03]: and not take steps to actually be who I'm made to be in our church, our family, a kind of thing.
18:06.084 --> 18:08.909
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, any other thoughts on anger?
18:08.949 --> 18:11.973
[SPEAKER_03]: Things that you think, man, this is something I repeatedly see.
18:12.154 --> 18:20.166
[SPEAKER_03]: It's confusing for people or this needs to be highlighted as people are getting more acquainted with their own anger or the anger in the community that's constructive.
18:20.146 --> 18:32.466
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say the word you started to do the podcast with kind of referring to how even that word anger has so many things attached to it that aren't true, that aren't accurate.
18:32.526 --> 18:41.361
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, and we've got more podcast to do and several down the list is this feeling called fear that we'll talk about.
18:41.341 --> 18:56.583
[SPEAKER_01]: rage, which is what a lot of people think anger is, but one that maybe a principle, a couple of principles, as we're talking about anger, we have for years in the treatment center that Chip Dodd created back in 1996 and that I worked with him for many years in.
18:56.603 --> 19:07.298
[SPEAKER_01]: We used to tell the guys in treatment around these feelings that if you will identify the feeling out loud, if you will explore what the feeling is about.
19:07.278 --> 19:12.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Not as much as why you're feeling it, but what it's about and then express that to safe people or a safe person.
19:13.246 --> 19:15.609
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we mean by deal with your anger.
19:15.949 --> 19:17.631
[SPEAKER_01]: That means identify that it's anger.
19:17.691 --> 19:18.733
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm after something.
19:19.293 --> 19:24.159
[SPEAKER_01]: Explore what it's about, what I'm after, what it's attached to, what it's associated with.
19:24.580 --> 19:29.226
[SPEAKER_01]: And then express that out loud with voice, which is kind of one of the neat major needs.
19:29.266 --> 19:30.147
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets
19:30.127 --> 19:39.403
[SPEAKER_01]: revealed by feeling anger like I need, I need expression of this, which is that vulnerability piece that you and Todd talked about at length a few minutes ago.
19:39.423 --> 19:53.046
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say that for one thing, as I remember all of these feelings, it's identifying what it is, and then moving forward into the exploration and then even more vulnerability into the expression of it to go back to what Todd said.
19:53.026 --> 19:59.977
[SPEAKER_01]: It's at expression part of that where the vulnerability of the rubber really meets the road which is what makes this one the most vulnerable.
20:00.478 --> 20:06.548
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm putting myself out there and you may do something with myself that's going to be painful.
20:07.409 --> 20:09.653
[SPEAKER_03]: So we spent some time defining anger.
20:09.673 --> 20:11.616
[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about the difference between anger and rage.
20:11.656 --> 20:17.245
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk a little bit about what happens with someone who will not really adequately acknowledge their anger.
20:17.225 --> 20:20.972
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's there, but they won't look at it or they won't tell the truth about it.
20:21.353 --> 20:24.779
[SPEAKER_03]: What starts to happen in a person who has an impairment around their anger?
20:24.839 --> 20:26.602
[SPEAKER_03]: And is it dealing honestly with it?
20:27.604 --> 20:36.921
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you think about what Todd said earlier about movement, like the anger says I'm moving towards something, I want something, I want something.
20:36.901 --> 20:44.552
[SPEAKER_01]: in the impairment of that, like if I don't deal with my anger will, I will depress my caring.
20:45.433 --> 20:46.575
[SPEAKER_01]: That's called depression.
20:47.236 --> 21:00.394
[SPEAKER_01]: I will make sure that I am isolated emotionally, and I'm keeping it at a low grade because I don't want any of that desire for clarity and movement and I want anyone seeing that I care or what I care about.
21:00.374 --> 21:10.275
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to move into my isolated place called depression when I'm depressing that passion, zeal, desire, yearning, reaching those kinds of things.
21:10.356 --> 21:19.395
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,
21:19.780 --> 21:48.488
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, as you said that on the wide for the first time I started thinking about maybe countries that are under significant oppression like from a dictator and you just you can't own property, you can't start a business, you can't take action with life and then could have an entire country that's depressed because there is no outlet for their vision, their passion, the thing they want to do in the world, it's just camp down or maybe like a
21:48.468 --> 21:51.331
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a collective experience of everybody there.
21:51.351 --> 21:51.992
[SPEAKER_03]: It's depressed.
21:52.012 --> 22:12.096
[SPEAKER_03]: They can't actually express what they want Yeah, maybe talk you can speak about isolation if let's say we we stay in that depressed state Not feeling our anger not telling a truth about it not dealing honestly with it for an extended period of time in isolation Like what starts to happen in a person over maybe maybe it's many years of not dealing with healthy anger
22:12.076 --> 22:18.987
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's two sides of this coin, so and I'll share one side now, I'll share the other side, it's self-willed one riot.
22:19.087 --> 22:24.115
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's when I am going to really be destructive in my life to get what I want.
22:24.155 --> 22:28.342
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the rooms of A, A, they will say, I won't want to want to want to want to want it.
22:28.362 --> 22:29.925
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get it at all cost.
22:30.145 --> 22:36.295
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it will look like it's driven towards something, but it's
22:36.275 --> 22:55.752
[SPEAKER_02]: destructive in the way it's not constructive in the way as when we said no passion is constructive i'm may i'm blazing a trail to get what i want okay and and then there's just just pieces and people and just shards of people around me uh... at all costs uh... for that place of fulfillment okay so
22:55.732 --> 22:59.017
[SPEAKER_03]: So integrity goes out the window, a character, right?
22:59.297 --> 23:01.561
[SPEAKER_03]: If I want money, I'm going to still lie cheat and steal.
23:01.621 --> 23:03.424
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll find out a way to get to it.
23:03.464 --> 23:06.368
[SPEAKER_03]: It won't necessarily be the constructive path that's good and right.
23:06.488 --> 23:10.054
[SPEAKER_03]: It'll be a backdoor, short cut, lacking integrity.
23:10.094 --> 23:11.896
[SPEAKER_03]: Not concerned with others, relationally.
23:12.177 --> 23:14.120
[SPEAKER_02]: Go have no relationship in it at all.
23:14.520 --> 23:14.981
[SPEAKER_02]: Any sort.
23:15.001 --> 23:18.787
[SPEAKER_02]: There will be no relationship other than I'm going to use you to get what I want.
23:18.867 --> 23:21.270
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's not a collaborative relationship.
23:21.310 --> 23:24.355
[SPEAKER_02]: It then becomes a transactional relationship, but not a true.
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[SPEAKER_02]: vulnerability of me bringing me to you through my anger to say help me get to this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to use you to get to this For porn is one of those places.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My anger took me to porn.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to get what I wanted when I wanted.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the person on the screen was just a means to an end
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[SPEAKER_02]: for me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But it wasn't actually to do anything relationally with anyone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was to fulfill something that was lacking in me, which was the place of depression of, and my life, I can't actually do what I want to do, so I'm going to find other places to do what I want to do, to find the fulfillment that I can't actually go do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking passion maybe you take people with you towards a cause in a constructive and relational way and the isolated it's like it's totally self self driven self will without regard for relationship or anyone else there's no one else with you other than the instruments that you trust for self.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, how would you do on to that?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think self-will run riot, that's an A.A.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Staying men.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it for many years.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't always been able to meetly grab it and understand what it means, but feel how would you do on, even with Todd said, about self-will as it relates to anger and being impaired?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Todd covered you know how the you would just you could call it the aggressive side of that like people who will not deal with healthy clear anger do what Todd described and the other side of that is the passive side and that was more of kind of was my ammo when I was in my own depression I became frozen in the isolation self will run riot by refusal
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to show up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be in this house, literally, the shade drawn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Even when I'm outside this physical house, my shade just still going to be drawn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to show up and really participate with my heart and soul in mind in this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So no one can make me care.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No one can make me reveal what I'm really after.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No one can make me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the language of self where I run right is no one can make me.
25:25.835 --> 25:31.640
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's in there's the aggressive sort of speaks out of the Todd was talking about and there's the passive side of them.
25:31.660 --> 25:32.961
[SPEAKER_01]: But both are saying the same things.
25:32.981 --> 25:43.471
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll will run riot is the classically in AA, but for whomever the person who's stuck into pressure so long it moves into this territory of you can't make me.
25:43.991 --> 25:55.842
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what so dog it about depression think about if people watching and listening us here if you've ever tried to talk someone who's depressed out of being depressed is not happening.
25:55.822 --> 25:59.148
[SPEAKER_01]: Because self will run riot, you can't make me show up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I will not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that self will, it becomes hardened and the person becomes in utter isolation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's another category here later on, but they become so isolated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They alone call the shots about destructively disintegrating everything in their path.
26:14.013 --> 26:19.602
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Todd's talking about, are shutting the doors and windows emotionally or literally and saying, you can't make me do that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, as you were talking, it was a little bit of like, I'll take my ball and go home.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not playing with y'all.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing this with y'all anymore.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You can't make me.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm out.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Relationally.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing anything.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's helpful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Those are really helpful distinctions when we think about anger.
26:35.133 --> 26:36.055
[SPEAKER_03]: Um,
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love the language of gift.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's a gift that God gave us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's something that lets us know what we should be moving towards, that we have a telos.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We have purpose, we have vocation.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We have meaning.
26:44.687 --> 26:46.409
[SPEAKER_03]: There's things to do in the world at matter.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There are people that matter.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We should have anger for and God say, and hey, get out of the bed and go after it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You know, go pursue things that matter.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Help contribute with your gifts in the world at matter.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, I hope, and listen to this episode, you guys are getting clarity around anger, even healthy
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[SPEAKER_03]: around what happens if we won't deal honestly with it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be depressed, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want people around me to be depressed and not able to express so God's made the way to do and to guess in the world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Reformed podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button, share it with your friends, leave us a rating, and check out our other resources at theeatenproject.com.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Peace!
