Connections, Creativity, and Chicken Scratch, with PW Religion Writer Ann Byle

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Publishing Disrupted.
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I am editor Mick Silva.
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And I am indie publisher and literary agent David Morris.
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And we are two former Christian publishing industry experts, professionals learning to navigate the massive independent book market.
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This podcast explores the ways in which book publishing is changing, the many, many ways and how writers can best meet that challenge.
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Lots of disruptions, lots of changes in the industry to us personally as well.
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So we're just covering all of those insights.
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It's all related.
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And it just keeps continuing.
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So, we have endless material.
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Yes, that's true.
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And yeah, we we do believe books still matter, and so we're always here trying to convince the world that books still matter.
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People there's such things as books.
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Immersive reads, right?
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Yeah, yeah, immersive reads.
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So yeah, if you're shifting from traditional publishing, if you're an author, if you're a industry professional, anybody who has opinions about this--
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Or even want to know about traditional publishing.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Because we try and learn about it a lot.
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Yeah, we're not against it.
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Well, I am.
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David's against it.
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Why did I say that?
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Industry (somewhat) professionals, we should say.
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But there are many challenges, and so we're just trying to discuss many of the challenges and the opportunities that we see for authors in this space.
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And so if that's of interest to you, we will be discussing that for the rest of this season at least, and we'll see where we go from there.
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But yeah, we today we we actually have a guest with us, and so we are going to introduce her as well.
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Ann Byle is with us today.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And, if I may introduce Ann, I mean we've kind of known of each other and Mick as well for often in maybe different ways, but over quite some time.
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You know, perhaps I might know you first and foremost just from your your role in writing features for religion coverage in Publisher's Weekly.
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Yes, that's very true.
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Yeah, and um but then also you have been living in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area for quite some time.
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You wrote for the Grand Rapids Press, correct?
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Yep.
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I grew up here in Grand Rapids.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And um also you write for Grand Rapids magazine.
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That's true, since no one writes for the press anymore.
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Yeah.
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Oh oops.
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Actual press, yeah.
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It's that monthly magazine that features doctors all the time, like the best doctors.
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But that's where the money comes from to provide for the editorial.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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Um, and you are also an author.
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Let me read, let me I I have your wonderful, tidy, um, really nicely designed book from uh Broadleaf publishing called Chicken Scratch: Lessons on Living Creatively from a Flock of Hens.
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And um, I think this is a really cool book that um you wrote this.
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Um I know I'm introing you, but you can interrupt me and tell me if I'm saying it wrong.
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But you basically wrote this to help people, writers, particularly perhaps, um, enhance, think about their creativity.
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And you did this through the through the vehicle of talking about chickens that you have had.
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Yes, I have no chickens anymore because we have a lot of dogs and visiting dogs that like chickens to eat.
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So when the last one died, we said no, we had them for 12 years, and I would sit in my backyard and watch them.
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Uh-huh.
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When-- did the dog eat the chicken?
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No.
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No.
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Terrorized, more.
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We lost two to various dogs, not ours.
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Oh, okay.
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So chickens have their lifespan, and I had my lifespan of caring for chickens.
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And so I learned just they're hilarious.
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Yeah.
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And so I thought the book was originally going to be just for writers, and the editor called and said, Could you make it for all creatives?
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And I said, Well, that's a brilliant idea.
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So I was able to do that.
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So your bio in the back of the book says Ann Byle is a journalist and nonfiction writer known for her trend pieces with publishers weekly and features with Grand Rapids Magazine and various nonprofit organizations.
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You've authored and co-authored many books, including, and here's a good one, everybody, The Joy of Working from Home, Embracing the Freedom, Avoiding the Pitfalls.
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She is a frequent speaker at writers' conferences, and we were just talking about that before we started recording, and is a former adjunct professor in journalism.
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And you live in Grand Rapids, Michigan with your husband, dog, cat, but no more chickens, even though they're here in this in this particular bio and for adult adult children.
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The memory of chickens and things live with thank you so much for being here.
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I do want to say that at the outset.
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And um I love your podcast, so it's a real honor to be asked.
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I've never heard anyone say that before.
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And to be able to do it in person, which is awesome.
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Grand Rapids is kind of a it's historically kind of a you know, a gathering place for publishing professionals and companies.
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It's changed, it's changed some.
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At one time there were five, um, just based right here in Grand Rapids.
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Oh, how would you count those five?
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Yeah.
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Zondervan, Baker Publishing Group, Eerdman's, Kregel, and Our Daily Bread.
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Right.
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And then it was Discovery House.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Our Daily Bread became -- well, it has a Discovery House imprint connected to it.
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Yes.
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And then it when it started, it was originally RBC Ministries and Discovery House, and now it's all under the umbrella of Our Daily Bread.
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Gotcha.
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Yeah.
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And now you say there's like not as many, would you say?
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Well, Zondervan doesn't even have an office anymore.
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Right.
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They do have a small one that they can rent for space.
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But you're right, it's totally gone.
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And it's not independently owned either.
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Right.
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Whereas the other ones are.
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Zondervan used to have a very large office space with a very large warehouse attached to it back in the heyday of Christian [publishing].
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I remember going there.
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I used to do some uh marketing writing for them.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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And now Baker Publishing still has its original building.
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Kregel's moved a couple times, Eerdman's moved.
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That's right.
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Right.
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And Our Daily Bread still stays on Kraft [Street].
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So we so we talk about um you know publishing, how how publishing has been disrupted.
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That's sort of the premise of this show, obviously.
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Um, and and we talk about it in terms of you know, how has the business been interrupted or disrupted?
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Um how you know, both both a business and for authors, how has it been, how how how have you experienced personally the disruption and and what kind of agent of change do you see yourself in the continuing changes and disruption?
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And you don't have to answer all that right now.
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Okay.
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But but let's just ask you a very practical question.
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And then we'd I'd love to get into, you know, let's let's definitely talk about how things work for you as an author and and and what PW is up to these days.
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Things that you're allowed to talk about, too.
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I don't we don't want to put you on the spot.
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Um but um uh how would you say that publishing is changed?
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I think there is much more acceptance of custom or self-published books.
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I see out in the marketplace.
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That's something coming from somebody who writes for PW.
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Well, exactly, and they don't review um custom published books, self-published books.
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I see a distinction between those two.
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Self-published is you send in your grocery list and you pay $10,000 and they publish it.
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Right.
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Right.
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But custom publishing is you hire the the intermediary, you pay them, but they create a beautiful book for you.
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Professionals.
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Yes.
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And I think that is really the way to go if you can invest in that process without going broke, and you can sell them on your own.
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I think it's very viable.
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Whereas years ago, I was a book review editor at the Grand Rapids Press, and I could always tell a self-published book.
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Right.
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And I felt kind of sorry for the people because the cover was awful and the editing was bad and the writing was iffy.
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And that's what people think about.
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Right.
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They think indie publishing, self-publishing, even hybrid press, what you call uh Lake Drive books, what David works on, they think, oh, this is going to be a shoddy product.
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And it's not that way anymore.
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If the author is willing to invest in the time and effort to create a really good book, it that also looks good.
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So I think that has changed a lot.
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I think publishers.
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And I will at risk of irritating them all, I think they've sold their souls to make money on big name authors.
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We'll edit that part out.
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No, we won't.
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I think I get that it's a business.
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We're speaking to the a receptive audience.
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No, we've we've crossed that bridge.
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We're not going back to the remote.
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We're like way past yeah.
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But you see all these big name authors.
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I I put together the deals for Publishers Weekly that runs Religion Book Line every other week.
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So I see what what deals are coming through.
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They don't we don't put the money in and they don't tell us the money, how much an author is made.
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But these are all in that when I'm reading those, they're all pastors, podcasters, influencers.
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This is not, you know, Sabrina, who is a really good writer.
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That's that's really not what it is.
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Now, granted, they may be only sending me the big name deals because then it draws big name authors to them, but these are all they're not average people.
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They're people who have a huge platform.
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And I feel like publishers have, in the interest of business and money, only want those kinds of authors anymore, which is kind of too bad.
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Because you get some pretty shallow books.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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And why would you think that publishing publishers have become more like that?
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They're more focused on the Trevor Burrus.
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Well, they gotta make money.
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Right.
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You know, they have to support a staff, they have to pay their people, they have to have reputation out there in the world.
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Now I'm not saying that all publishers do this all the time.
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Right.
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Sometimes they do that so that they can do other things.
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Right.
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So they can publish theology books that are gonna sell 12 copies.
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Or more literary books or academic books, maybe academic books.
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Right.
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And I understand all of that.
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And also you see some really great stuff coming out that you know is not gonna sell.
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I mean, it might sell a thousand copies.
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So I appreciate that they are doing their due diligence in getting quality books out there and also looking for authors who are gonna make them some money so that they can do that.
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Yeah.
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Well, I I will I do want to completely affirm the criticism though.
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Uh publishing has become more top-heavy.
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There's fewer independent, there's fewer mid-level publishers and a lot more indies these days.
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Um the big five have been trying to gobble each other up, um, and they've done a pretty good job of that.
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And they they they fold their imprints into their bigger company and say that the distinctiveness will continue, but it doesn't really.
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Um it's just drawing bigger names.
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Right.
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Right, right.
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So why wouldn't books be selling as well today, do you think?
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That's that seems to me to be I I'm kind of jumping jumping topics there.
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But there's there's a good question though.
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But it's it's harder to get you don't see you you would know about bestseller lists.
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It's you don't see books hitting the bestseller list, at least in the religious market, and sticking around like they used to.
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There's some, there's some that do, but a lot of them show up in the first week and then they're gone.
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Well, that's that's a sleight of hand by the publisher, too, by getting a lot of pre-orders.
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And then, you know, if all those pre-orders are returned and then they get to say New York Times bestseller.
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Sure.
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Because they were on it one week.
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But if you look at those bestseller lists, what's on it every single time?
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Yeah.
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The five love languages.
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Yeah.
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Redeeming love.
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Yeah.
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You know, boundaries, boundaries, purpose-driven life.
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Yeah.
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So it's the perpetual ones.
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Yeah.
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Well, and never buy purpose-driven life new because you can go to every thrift store and find one.
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Why is that still selling?
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They used to make Christmas trees out of the stacks of purpose-driven life books.
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Yeah.
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And you can buy them in thrift stores because I go to thrift stores in there every time.
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Yeah.
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So it's just an interesting how they create those bestseller lists.
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Yeah.
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Because I think sometimes it's artificially done so that you can say New York Times bestseller for six hours.
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We had a whole episode on bestsellers and how meaningless that can be.
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Uh you know, you're talking about celebrity books, um, influencer books.
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What even is an influencer?
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Nobody can tell me.
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Um, it's less less shelf space.
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We've talked about that overall.
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I think there's just more competition.
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It's crowded.
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Um, attention spans obviously are an issue.
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Uh different formats for books, you don't just go into a bookstore anymore, you buy the audio, or you know, or you order it from online.
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Or exactly.
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I also sometimes think, is a publisher hoping for that person's 50,000 followers, 20,000 of them to buy the book, and then they're happy.
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Right.
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Maybe that's sufficient.
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And maybe it is supposed to be short term.
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Yeah.
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I'm of the opinion that there's way too many mommy books out there and how to be a better mom and how to teach your kid to pray and all this stuff.
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And sometimes all you gotta do is just get through the day and they're all still alive.
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Yeah.
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So I get tired of doing deals on mom books, and so there's a lot of Christian living titles and devotionals for women.
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I help judge the ECPA contest on book on gift books and devotionals.
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I didn't know there were so many devotionals out there in the world.
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Oh, yeah.
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How are they even even coming breaking even?
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Right.
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How is that possible?
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I I just think apparently every woman but me is doing a devotional.
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Sure.
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Seems like it.
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Yeah.
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Our daily bread basically is devotionals.
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I mean, that's obviously they do more than that, but well, and I can hardly laugh at our daily bread since my dad wrote for them for years.
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Is that right?
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He wrote devotionals for them, sure.
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Oh, Nepo Baby.
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I love that.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.600
That's different than books, though.
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:12.799
Although he did some books for them.
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.480
Christian publishing Nepo Baby.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:15.200
Yeah, no kidding.
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:15.679
That's rare.
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:17.600
Well, I'm just going writer Nepo Baby.
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:17.840
Yeah.
00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.600
Well, we'll talk about that a little bit.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:26.080
Um, I mean, I'm curious to hear you talk about your book's been out now for a couple of years, more than a couple, maybe.
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.240
It's says 2023 for a copyright date, um, Chicken Scratch.
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:35.600
Um, and uh, you know, talk about maybe maybe there's a two-part question.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.519
Talk about your background as a writer.
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:39.919
Like what what what got you going?
00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:41.039
Was it college?
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:47.440
And then I'd love to hear like zero in on what's your experience been since Chicken Scratch has been out as an author.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:56.879
Well, I majored in college in English not to teach, which is an official major because everyone assumes you're gonna teach English.
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:04.160
And then I got a job at Moody Publishing, um, writing jacket copy and catalog copy.
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:10.720
I have no idea why they fought they hired me because I was a rookie right out of college and probably because I took a really low salary, whatever.
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.079
No one else is willing to do that.
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:12.319
Yeah.
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:12.880
Yeah.
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:18.079
Just go to show you, too, that sometimes jacket copy is not written by experienced people.
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.920
Aaron Ross Powell It was written by a 22-year-old.
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:20.799
No offense.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:21.920
No offense.
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.920
But I learned a lot, and guess who my ultimate big boss was?
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:27.039
Jerry Jenkins.
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:27.519
Hey.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:36.720
So I've known him since I was in my twenties and interviewed him numerous times, and he was in my books on writing and famous or infamous Left Behind.
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.880
Also, never buy one of those new because you can get them all in the thrift store.
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.319
There's a commentary going on here already.
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:52.799
So um I worked there for a couple years and learned a lot about publishing, and then I came back here to Grand Rapids.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:00.400
In the meantime, I had learned a computer system at Moody that all major newspapers in the country used at the time.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:10.720
So when I waltzed into the press and said, I think I'd like to be a copy editor, they hired me part-time, making way more than I made at Moody working full-time.
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:12.640
So I worked part-time at the press.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:14.720
You said using a technology?
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:15.680
A technology.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.880
It was then, this was in the 80s, was called ATEX.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:31.599
And I learned it at Moody to bring the order form in-house because this was also before you know you you went to CBA with an order form in the publisher, you know.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:32.640
The book conference, yeah.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:33.039
Yeah.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.759
And then the bookstores would literally check off the book they wanted.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:36.880
Right in the book.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:37.359
Yeah.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.519
Yeah.
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.200
So now, of course, you don't need that.
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:40.000
But that's great.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.160
Then the press used that.
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:46.640
And so they hired me on the copy desk where I worked part-time for about eight months.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:52.640
And then my boss said, Hey Ann, wasn't your last job something to do with books?
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:53.839
I said, Well, yeah, it was.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.000
He said, Oh, good, you're the book review editor.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.079
So I took over that.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:18:59.119
Awesome.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.680
And it was a one-page in the Sunday paper.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:12.160
So I um organized that, sent out books to review, wrote some, and also worked on the copy desk for eight years.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:25.759
And then I left and went to our daily bread, RBC Ministries, and worked in the marketing department for a while, for two and a half years, and had some more kids.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.160
You know, pretty soon you got a million kids.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.359
And then my husband got a full-time teaching job.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:36.880
So naturally, being the good wife, I stayed home and had some more kids.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.519
And so I ended up with four spaced by 10 years.
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.319
And so I've been freelancing for 28 years.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.559
So you're freelancing through motherhood.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:47.359
Oh, yeah.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:48.079
Quite a bit.
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:48.319
Yeah.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:49.039
Sounds like.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:49.279
Yeah.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:51.039
And strange thing happened.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.039
Strange things happened while I was writing or interviewing.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:20:04.000
Um, one time my little boys unscrewed all of the screws from the entertainment center doors and took them out.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.119
They were like four and two.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.480
And I was like, oh, I guess I should have been paying attention instead of writing that story on my clam book Mac.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.720
And I never put it back on.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:13.680
I thought it was so cool.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:18.000
And then one time one of them came in and said, Mom, can I shoot this baby gun?
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.400
I'm talking to Lauren Winner on the phone.
00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:20.720
Oh.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.200
I'm like, uh, hold on a second, because here's a four-year-old, you know, with a baby gun.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:32.400
So stuff happened, and I managed to life of a freelance writer for and mom.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.119
Yeah.
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.440
So I tell freelance journalists.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:43.359
I tell girls, women, young women, it is the hardest thing you will ever do is to write and raise your kids.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:45.119
And it is the most rewarding.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:45.920
Wow.
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:55.359
Because I created a life that I love in that, yeah, I can take a day off.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:00.799
Um, my husband got all antsy one time and thought maybe I should get a full-time job again.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.680
I said, I've been out of the workforce 20 years.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:05.200
I've created this life.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:05.680
No.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:06.240
Yeah.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:06.799
Yeah.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:07.440
Right.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:13.200
So um now in rot as I think about that, my kids are all grown.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.599
I'm gonna be a grandma in June for the first time.
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.640
The youngest one is having a baby.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.319
Well, his wife is.
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.400
And I think now that life has come to fruition.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:25.599
I can go wherever I want.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:26.160
Yeah.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:35.200
Especially in today's world, you're you're better trained for the work environment we're all in in this book that you wrote about um the joy of working from home.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.200
But I can't teach anywhere because I don't have a master's degree or a PhD.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.559
So all that experience is moot in the educational world, but it's it's fun in the writing world.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:45.039
Yeah.
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.960
Yeah, works fine for bylines and magazines, yeah.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:50.160
PW.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:51.680
You've got tons of experience.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.960
I think any English department or writing program would be would should die to have you come in somehow.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.759
Well, I did teach a feature writing class at Cornerstone.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:04.640
University, not this past fall, but the fall before.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.880
But that's for other reasons, which we probably shouldn't talk about on here.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:09.519
Okay.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.920
Why they needed adjuncts so quickly.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:14.400
I think that was in the news though.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.839
I mean they did go ahead and fire.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:17.039
It's a higher education.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:18.079
Yeah.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:18.480
Yeah.
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:19.039
Yeah.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:19.519
Yeah.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:21.920
That was that was kind of a kerfuffle for a while there.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:22.480
All right.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.799
So back to so what were you talking to Lauren Winter about?
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.400
Does everybody know who Lauren Winter is?
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.519
Girl Meets God.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.039
Girl Meets God was a big hit back in the back in the 90s, maybe.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:37.359
Generated some interest in memoir around the same time as uh Blue Like Jazz and such.
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:37.920
Yeah.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:45.200
I was interviewing her, I think, for a story, but also I interviewed her for my first book on writing.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:45.599
Oh.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.720
Published in the in the late 90s, I think.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.200
So I was piggybacking actual paying work with hey, would you talk to me about writing?
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:56.400
Yep.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.720
There's another thing, another great skill for working from home.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:00.240
It's multitasking.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.720
And for all freelancers, do the interviews and use them more than once if you can.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:06.960
Yeah.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.240
You know, walk, walk through what are you doing and can I use that in a different way?
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.599
I've used that interview you did with me in whatever book that is, Christian Publishing.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:19.279
Oh, Christian Publishing 101.
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:20.559
It came out in 2000.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:22.160
It was a second version kind of.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.720
You saw me at what, Mount Herman Writers Conference?
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.920
Oh, yeah, that's yes.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.119
We did interviews.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:31.599
You interviewed a whole bunch of people in the Christian publishing uh area.
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.359
And my interview in there has been really helpful for at least for me.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.920
I don't know for anyone else, but you know, I've used it in many ways.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:38.559
Oh good.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:39.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.839
Your interview for yourself has been very helpful for that.
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:49.119
Basically she was interviewing me about like uh editing or technique, I think maybe uh uh self-editing for for authors and that kind of thing.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:56.720
So yeah, no, but but using reusing material is yeah like and tip typically it's pr pretty endless.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:03.599
I mean, if you can I know you do this too, you know, you you try to put stuff out there that that has uh perennial interest.
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:06.480
Yes, right, yes, or repurpose or recycle things.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:07.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:14.000
I was just joking because it's it's true sometimes we go back to the things that we were interviewed about or written about, and like, oh, I forgot I said that.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.599
I forgot I even know this stuff.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.480
Hold it off the channel.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:17.359
Aren't I smart?
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.920
Yeah, maybe I better read this again.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:20.319
Yeah.
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:30.079
But I mean, if you've been in the industry a while or freelancing for a while, you you you end up with a lot of materials or and almost more importantly, connections.
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:30.799
Mm-hmm.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:31.359
Good.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:44.400
I just I interviewed an author a while back and got to know her through various places, and I was able to contact her, and she's in this story that we'll run next week in Religion Book Line.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:45.759
Because I know her.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:50.400
Not that we're intimate friends, but the publishing world is small.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:52.559
Much smaller than people realize.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:52.960
Yeah.
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:53.200
Yeah.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:00.799
You you just said a word that really hits on a theme we've talked a lot about in how publishing is disrupted and what it's like today.
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:02.079
Use the word connections.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:03.359
You find connections.
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:15.599
Um, you have to be one of the most connected people we know in publishing because you talk to different publishers, you talk to different authors, you're going to different conferences, you know, you're seeing all the things that are going on out there.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.960
Um in a limited sense sense, yes.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:19.519
Yeah.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:21.119
I mean, just nobody can see all of it.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:21.759
As anyone.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.680
Even just thinking to talking to an author like Lauren Winter way back.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:31.359
Um, how how do you feel the sense of community has changed over time or making connections?
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:32.079
Is it easier?
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.200
Is it harder?
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:35.359
Um, what does it look like for you these days?
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.799
You feel isolated, you feel as connected as ever?
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:44.559
I think social media has helped in that way, where technology has helped.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:46.480
People stay connected.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:58.319
Now, I'm not real active on social media, which is the bane of my existence as far as promoting chicken scratch, but people are connected in much different ways now.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:08.880
And you can connect on the internet or or through your social media and become really good friends, and then you've never met in person.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.359
So I think lots of instances of that.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:11.920
Yes.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.000
And so in that way, I think connection is easier.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.759
But I also think there's something to be said for meeting in person.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.480
And like we're doing today, which is Right.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:22.720
Yeah.
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:25.759
Like I'm gonna hopefully get to an author event tonight.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.799
We could have done this over Zoom, but we made the drive over here and yeah.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.240
Oh, well, it was tragic.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:35.359
I mean you don't want to see me on Zoom from my house, but Oh, all those chickens.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.319
Well, they're not running around.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.079
Well, dogs are over and they come in and howl and make all kinds of racket.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:41.839
Sorry, I interrupted you.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:42.799
Oh, that's all right.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:56.640
But I think the benefit to meeting in person is even stronger because it's so much done online and not in person, to actually meet in person is a stronger there's a stronger tie than ever.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:57.519
That's good.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:58.559
That's that's well said.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.920
I I find that too.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:16.319
That that when you can make time or or someone has made the effort to actually go to the cafe and meet, it's it's a much easier, I guess, dynamic, at least from my perspective as an editor or working with someone, I'm sure as a as a writer interviewing someone, it's just easier in person.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:16.960
Yeah.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.279
But but we don't have that luxury so often.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.680
Yeah because we're working with people across the country.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:28.880
So where do you connect with is it conferences uh generally or well even talking on the phone is different?
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:29.440
Okay.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:34.240
So I was covering publishing in color.
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.799
And Joyce Dinkins and I have met several times.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:37.680
She lives in South Haven.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.039
It's a writer's uh association, a writer's conference, actually, yeah.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.119
And it's all online, it's all a virtual conference.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.240
But when I said, could I register and can I sit in the on some sessions, she was surprised.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:53.759
Like, you would want to do that?
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:55.200
I'm like, well, yeah.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:17.599
I couldn't do all of them, but I think that even that connection of being willing to participate in some way to learn from is a really big thing because so much of it is done virtually or just you know, and I'm not above sending email questions to for PW stories.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:18.160
Sure.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.720
Because editors don't have time to talk to me.
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:26.799
They would much rather think through their responses and write something smart and helpful.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.559
And I don't have a problem with that.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.960
I mean, it's a it's a quick story, I need a couple quotes.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.880
That's okay.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.680
But boy, if I could meet them in person, that'd be fun.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.720
Or if I both we both had the time to talk.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:41.200
Yeah.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.960
Maybe separate from actually interviewing for an article.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:50.240
And meeting in person is leads to a lot of good connections for articles too.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:52.079
Absolutely.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:52.559
Yeah.
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:53.920
I need to remember that more.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.440
I'm just I'm not very good at it.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.799
I mean, as an editor, I'm somewhat shy and retiring it as it is.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.720
So having a podcast is a little strange.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.079
People are like, you have a podcast?
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:02.400
Yeah.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:03.680
And then they tell you they've listened to it.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:04.400
You're like, oh my God.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.160
I'm like, shoot, don't listen.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:07.440
Um no.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.119
Never say that.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:19.920
I think it's important to like recognize just, yeah, social media can be both a bane of your existence and and a boon to like your your business.
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:21.440
And and certainly it is.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:29.519
I know for Lake Drive, hyponymus, probably a little bit different as an as an agent, you know, having a you you have to have a presence of some type.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.440
And we've talked about this for authors before.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:38.559
You need you need to know uh enough people, basically, before you can have what you'd call a career.
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:50.559
And I don't know what the right number is, but it's at least a a good, you know, a couple of handfuls of people who you could uh say, know you, know what you're about, know what your interests are.
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.920
Maybe you've connected with them at different uh conferences over the years or something.
00:29:53.920 --> 00:30:00.880
But yeah, my my career didn't really begin as such until I'd been doing this for about eight to ten years.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:05.839
And I I try to tell people, you know, are you are you that kind of person you want to commit to this?
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:11.039
Whether that's in the industry in terms of publishing and working on it as a business or a writer.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.839
Um there's marketers, there's publicists.
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:22.880
I mean, you're you're talking about, you know, starting at a publisher, and that's the way I did too, and and learning how to then conduct yourself as a freelancer.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.640
Um that takes a while.
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.000
And I think newspaper is a whole different gig.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:28.400
Yes.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:39.359
And I I'm pretty sure that every editor, um, publishing professional author should work at a newspaper for a year because that will change you.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.839
I mean, what like what, for example?
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:42.480
Deadlines?
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:44.880
Deadlines like thick skin.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.519
I mean, I had people yell at me and I'm like edited.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:48.720
Who who's yelling at you?
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:50.480
Well, my fellow copy editors.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.039
I mean, I I worked with a bunch of hooligans at the press.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:54.480
Yelling at you about what?
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:00.319
I didn't like that headline you put, or I didn't like this, or don't edit my story, or blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:00.880
Okay, yeah.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:09.359
So you learn about So going from Moody to the Grand Raptors Press was a teeny bit of a culture shock.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:12.240
And then going everybody was really nice at Moody, probably.
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.079
Well, they faked, you know.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:15.680
They were really nice.
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:16.720
They faked.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:17.839
I mean, I didn't know.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:18.640
How would I know?
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.839
I didn't know.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.759
And then to go from the press to to our daily bread, wow.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:24.160
Sure.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.000
I was like culture shock again.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:28.240
Now I gotta fake like I like everybody.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:29.039
Yeah.
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.880
Because at the press, you just tell them I think you're a jerk.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.240
Yeah, you know, and they used to tease me all the time.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.400
You almost have to get the content out quicker and in a pithier way.
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:43.039
So it's almost fits the culture to be somewhat confrontive, you know.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:44.960
Oh, yeah, you get to the bottom line of the story here.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.200
You can't be shy and retiring and work in a newsroom.
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:48.160
No nuance.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:49.680
Get get to the content.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.920
And you you learn to move quickly, and you move learn to move decisively.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:54.880
You learn a thick skin.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.400
It's dialectic, it's a dialogue dialogical process, yeah.
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:00.640
And you learn to just do the job.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:04.079
No, none of this, I don't really feel like it today.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:05.440
Well, too bad.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:06.799
Sorry, it's your job.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:07.519
You gotta do it.
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.200
But of course, with newspapers, they're just don't exist anymore.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.720
Where do you see even a paper being delivered anywhere?
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:18.960
You know, well, you can if you want to pay six dollars to get one measly paper.
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.240
Washington Post just laid off 300 employees this week.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.400
So everybody's getting their news online, which I'm not above reading, you know, not that I'm gonna pay for it.
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:28.559
Yeah.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.759
So I missed the paywall a lot in the New York Times because I'm too cheap.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:35.519
But do you know if the religion reporters at the Washington Post were laid off as well?
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:36.400
That I don't know.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:37.119
Okay.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:37.680
Yeah.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.200
Well, and PW is not laying off people.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.599
So that's good, but they're all a few days.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:48.799
So we're good.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:57.279
People leave and you know, there's a new news editor, and that's pretty routine, but I've not heard of any layoffs and anything like that.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.599
I think they run on a skeleton staff anyway.
00:32:59.599 --> 00:32:59.839
Yeah.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:02.160
And I only write for religion.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.759
That's a very small subset of everything else that they do.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:06.559
Right.
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.880
Maybe we should get to that a little bit.
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.720
Um so you you don't write the book reviews.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:14.079
I used to.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:15.279
You used to, yeah.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:18.480
And I can now still if I want to, but I don't.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:25.039
I do review for The Banner, which is the Christian Reformed Church publication and Englewood review of books.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.319
You do book reviews for them.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.359
Book reviews.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:28.160
Okay.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:33.200
And but but for PW, you're you're you're writing a story like News and Features, yeah.
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:34.160
News and features.
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:36.640
So what are some recent examples?
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:44.640
Well, they just ran a story on the most read stories in 2025, and one of them was an interview I did with Jeanette Oak.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:46.160
Oh, Janet Oak.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:48.880
It was 90 something and had a new book come out.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.799
The first most famous and first perhaps Amish fiction author.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:53.359
Yeah.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.720
One of the one of the creators of the Christian fiction genre.
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:57.599
Right.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.119
And that was well read.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:06.799
I've done stories on um Realm Makers, which is the spec fiction writers conference.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.199
And that was very well read.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.719
So I get to go that was had a religio a religious spec fiction.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.639
Realm makers is Christian spec fiction.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.440
Oh, that's right.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.559
I think I saw that article.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:17.599
That was a while back, right?
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:27.280
Well, I did that for PW and then I did a bigger one for Christianity today on the spec fiction world and then the Christian gaming world, which, you know, whole new world.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:28.159
That's a thing.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.760
I I don't I've never played a video game in my whole life, but I can write about it.
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:34.559
Do they have book publishers coming and exhibiting?
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:35.440
Oh yeah.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.239
Oh, sure they do.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:36.880
There you go.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:37.199
Wow.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:39.039
Well, I did guess, but not.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:40.800
It was in Grand Rapids last year.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.840
I can't believe you weren't there.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.559
Oh, yeah.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:43.039
Right.
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:43.519
Exactly.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:44.719
It's in Memphis.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:46.079
Not Memphis, Nashville.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.119
Is it a St.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:47.760
Louis this year.
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.079
Is it a centrist, conservative, or progressive crowd, would you say?
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:53.920
They wear elf ears.
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:55.199
They're whatever.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.119
Oh, there you go.
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.320
Unaffiliated.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:00.800
Your Christian spec fiction.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:01.840
That's fascinating.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:09.920
Everything from teeny boppers wearing dragon earrings to full hobbit regalia.
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:10.320
Yeah.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.000
To a lot of boba fett and a lot of Yoda.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.440
I'd be I'd be Boba Fett.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:15.599
Yeah.
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.599
And a lot of, you know, crazy vampire.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:22.000
I don't know.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:22.639
Oh, yeah.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.480
So it's a whole new world.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:25.039
Yeah.
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:28.800
And they're faith-based across the spectrum.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:29.440
Yeah.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:42.800
That's the cool thing about writing for PW religion, I think, is you can you the the what you part of your job is to be able to look at the trends and to think about the trends and try to anticipate the trends.
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.199
Phyllis Tickle was really good at that.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:45.679
Yes.
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.519
Did you work directly with her ever?
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:48.239
Oh okay.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:49.920
I never did.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.559
And right now I'm going to work on a dual-time novel trend piece.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:55.280
Ooh.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:02.480
And dual time has been out a long time, but now really well-known Christian fiction authors are doing it.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.039
I'm reading one right now by um Lynn Austin.
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:05.679
Okay.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.639
Who um she's doing dual time.
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.400
So that's kind of a trend, is this jump back and forth in time.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:21.760
Catherine Ray's done it numerous times through Harper Mews, and Jamie, um Jamie Joe Wright sometimes will do it, and miscellaneous other ones.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.320
So there's a trend is this influence in dual time.
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:25.840
I did a piece on rom coms.
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.639
Those were those are hugely popular right now in the general market, but also more in the Christian market.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:33.039
Um yeah.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:36.639
Several of my famous or famous favorite authors.
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:43.440
Uh I think of like Susan Meisner had uh Shape of Mercy, I think was the name of it.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.559
Does she cross General Market and Faith Market?
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:48.320
She she came from Faith Market.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:53.679
She was at uh Harper not Harper, uh Harvest House for a while.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.840
Um yeah, Waterbrook was uh Shape of Mercy.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.719
But now I think she's either Valentine or A.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:03.199
Oh, moved to move to the wider world.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.360
And Lisa Wingate did the same thing.
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:06.320
Same thing, right.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.119
Christian market for a while, now back to the general market.
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:09.599
Uh-huh.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.440
Which I don't know if that's a trend.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:13.199
I mean, that's been going on a while.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:14.960
It can go the other way too, obviously.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.280
Redeeming love is a famous uh example.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:23.840
Which if people were to really get tied in a knot about Christian fiction, why is that still a bestseller?
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:24.400
Right.
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:29.119
Because don't be offended about kissing in a book if you've read Redeeming Love.
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:29.760
Oh.
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:30.880
Because, you know, okay.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:35.280
Wait, people get offended about kissing in a romance novel in the Christian marketplace?
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:35.920
Oh yeah.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:36.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:37.440
That's a deep.
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.360
I I knew the answer to that, but I just had to say it.
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:51.280
And it's a broad spectrum, you know, from we can't do anything but fall in love and worship Jesus to let's do everything but the main event.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:51.760
Yeah.
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.519
And then most books are kind of hand-holding and leading up to a kiss at the end or something.
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.639
Of the Amish authors, who's the sauciest, would you say?
00:37:58.639 --> 00:37:59.360
Do you know?
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:00.719
Do you have any opinion on that?
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.000
Jeanette Oak, probably not.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:02.480
Not Jeanette.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:03.679
Beverly Lewis?
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:04.239
No.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:05.360
Uh certainly not.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.679
Suzanne Woods Fisher does some Amish.
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:11.760
What I've noticed is that the really good ones stay.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.400
All the other ones who jumped on the trend are gone now.
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.920
Oh Wanda Brunsteadder, but she's she would not be saucy.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.119
It's actually a really hard business from a business model point of view.
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:21.599
Oh, yeah.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:33.039
Because it when the Christian bookstores were were significantly reduced, that that meant a lot of the fiction uh mechanism for distributing and marketing fiction in a way.
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:33.360
Yeah.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:39.679
And some you knew just jumped on it because and I I was like, I'm not even reading that.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.480
I'm not even gonna look at that because I know it's just because it's popular and you shouldn't be writing it.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:44.800
Yeah.
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:50.000
But the the good ones have stayed, and now it's much less because how many Amish stores can you write?
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:50.559
Yeah.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:52.480
That is always my question.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.559
How many of these can we possibly have?
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.800
And yet the covers they're all beautiful.
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:57.920
Still more coming.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.320
The covers are all such beautiful women.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.079
I think Amish women are all beautiful, obviously.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:07.599
I mean, you know, not the ones I saw in real life.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:09.360
We're not allowed to say that.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:09.679
No.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.360
Um well, they're just plain.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:12.159
They're plain.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:12.480
Yeah.
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:12.880
Yeah.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:14.559
Bonnet doesn't hide beauty.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:15.039
Come on.
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:17.440
Uh yeah.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.119
Where where have we gotten here?
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:21.840
Uh we we're talking about publishing disrupted.
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:22.159
Sorry.
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:24.239
It's okay.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.119
Well, it's fun.
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:26.000
We're expanding.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:27.360
I could get into this.
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:31.599
I have my own theories about why Amish fiction's been so successful too, like from a cultural standpoint.
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:38.880
Well, I think it's kind of a it's a way of telling stories about breaking out of restrictive faith communities.
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:43.840
That's why we fantasize because they're in the restrictive community and there's women breaking out of it.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:45.679
At least that's sort of the promise of those stories.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:46.159
A lot of them.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:51.920
In the early years, though, Valerie Weaver Zerker, who now works for Broadleaf, wrote a book called The Thrill of the Chaste.
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:57.199
It was more of an academic title, and part of it was a backlash to technology.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:58.079
Interesting.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.280
Because people wanted a simpler life.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:01.760
Sure.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:02.159
Yeah.
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:02.320
Yeah.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:03.760
And the Amish offered that.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:04.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:05.039
The thrill of the chaste.
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:05.280
Cool.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.159
That's still a thing.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:08.639
I mean, that's still a definite draw for a lot of people.
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.480
Well, I think that's where historical romance comes in, historical novels.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.679
You just want something where you're not constantly on your iPad.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.159
Right.
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:16.480
Right.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:17.519
In the book.
00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:20.320
Let's let's talk, let's get back to your book a little bit.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:30.159
I would I would love to know like what like let's get back to that word connection a little bit, but I also want to hear about what what is the main idea of the of of creativity in this book?
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:31.920
What's your what's your take on creativity?
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:33.840
Maybe that's more interesting to talk about.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.480
I love that.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.840
Well, I think everyone is creative in their own ways.
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.480
And some people will say, Oh, I'm not creative.
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:45.199
But then they'll go create the most beautiful lasagna you've ever seen.
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:46.639
And they are creative.
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:48.719
Everyone is creative in their own way.
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:55.599
Whether it's you're an atomic scientist or you're discovering a new comet or something, you have to be creative.
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:57.920
And it's about thinking outside the box.
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:11.039
So for chicken scratch, I interviewed everyone from a Swiss Guard member who was a chef for the popes, because the Swiss Guard protects the Pope.
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.719
And so this guy was a chef.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:13.280
Wow.
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:14.320
That's pretty creative.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:15.679
That's very cool.
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:21.760
And I learned to do some creative things, but people think, you know, I learned to decorate a cake.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.159
My cakes were always remedial, my poor kids.
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.679
They were just like, oh, what a weird color, Mom.
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:34.239
And my nieces all had these gorgeous cakes made by their grandma, like dolphins leaping out of waves.
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:35.840
But dolphins.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:37.199
It's seriously.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.480
But that's creative to be able to do that.
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:45.599
Surgeries, you know, heart, heart doctors are creative.
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:48.079
We're all creative in our own ways.
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:52.480
But what is the real, what does it take to harness that creativity?
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.119
It takes courage to face it.
00:41:55.119 --> 00:42:03.920
It takes um ability to um get over the hen pecking to use a chicken metaphor, is to just do it.
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.159
And don't who cares what anybody says?
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:07.440
You do your thing.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:12.320
So that's where creativity comes in, is we we all are creative.
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.960
And how do you tap into that?
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:21.280
So right now I'm into paper crafting, which I did for chicken scratch, one of the five things.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:22.559
That's the one that stuck.
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.639
So but why title it chicken scratch?
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:25.920
How'd that connect to the content?
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:30.159
Well, that's because the editor um liked that title.
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.400
She came to me, she said, Hey Ann.
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:35.519
Um, because I was putting putting my chickens on Instagram, right?
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:40.639
Because I'd be writing out on my deck, and this chicken would come and peer over my computer.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:43.840
So I started watching them, and they were just craziness.
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.280
And so I put them on Instagram and she saw them.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.400
And this is a person I knew.
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:49.840
I'd interviewed her several times.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:56.400
I'd had been to Boston, had lunch with her, and she's like, Hey, would you write a book called Chicken Scratch?
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.280
I said, Okay, because chickens scratch.
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:06.239
Now, were I to get the rights back to this book, I would probably re-release it with a different title.
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:06.719
Oh.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.360
I like the subtitle and I like the title.
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:10.079
Yeah.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.559
But I think it can go beyond chickens.
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:12.960
Yeah.
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.440
Sure.
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.079
Um, but title like what?
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.239
I don't know, something to do with creativity.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:19.840
I'm trying to get you going here.
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:20.320
Yeah.
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:20.719
Yeah.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:23.039
So I love this book.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:24.239
I love the way it looks.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.639
They did such a beautiful job on the insides with the little chickens with glasses.
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:30.079
Great little hardcover.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:30.400
Yeah.
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:31.360
Check it out.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.880
And it's really um but that's about connection.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.199
She saw my pictures on Instagram, contacted me, said, Hey, would you write this book?
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:40.639
I write the book proposal.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:44.559
She changes it from writers to creatives, and here we are.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:47.199
And she calls me one day and she says, So, Ann, about that book.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:49.199
I said, You really want to publish it?
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:50.960
I'm I'm as surprised as anyone.
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:52.719
She's like, Uh, yeah.
00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:54.400
And here's an advance.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.119
So that's how that came to be.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.599
And it was such fun to interview from Pi.
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:05.280
On the West Coast to a woman who marketing.
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:07.280
How did you find these people?
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.679
Like what mental process did you go through?
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:10.079
Okay.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:11.360
There it is again.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.280
Is authors that I was interviewing.
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.119
I asked friends, do they know anybody?
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.840
My editor at PW was good friends with the pie making lady, connected me with her.
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:21.760
Authors I was interviewing.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:29.199
Yeah.
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:31.599
And I read books by chicken writers.
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:33.119
There's all kinds of chicken books out there.
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.280
Like they write about chickens.
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.480
That's awesome.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:38.000
Some you know, some didn't.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.320
Some didn't participate and some did.
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.559
But you just found the people who who were interested.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:43.199
And yeah.
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:47.920
And as my kids will tell you, I have no problem talking to people I don't know.
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:48.639
That's great.
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:52.079
And so that's where I think a newspaper background comes in.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.159
You just can't you can't be fearful.
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:55.199
You just gotta do it.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:56.239
They can always say no.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:59.199
Well, and I find like playing a role often helps.
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:07.119
If you have a purpose, if you have some questions, your your natural interest in that person generally is what you're going off of.
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:10.239
I mean, you know, and that's not able to be faked.
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:11.920
You you have to feel that sincerely.
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:14.000
And people like to talk about what they love.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:15.280
There you go.
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:16.719
I'd love to hear about it.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:18.400
Especially if they're being creative about it.
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:18.719
Yeah.
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:19.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:19.519
Yeah.
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:28.719
Coming from a quieter disposition, I often will just, oh well, they don't need me bothering them, or I don't really, you know, it's just a question I have.
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:30.639
Maybe I'll ask them offline or whatever.
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:35.599
But like to actually, you know, be more assertive in that way, I think is an important skill for people.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.199
And sometimes I have to gird myself up for it, you know.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.880
Like some days I just think I can't talk to anybody new today.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:45.599
I just need to read Jack Reacher or something.
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:46.719
And sometimes that's true.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:47.039
Yeah.
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:47.440
Yeah.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.480
And other days I'm like, okay, let's go for it.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.239
And off we go.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:58.159
So you mentioned social media was a bane of your existence with this book, but what what were some of your biggest frustrations?
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.719
Um, in like what what did you enjoy the most?
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.760
Was it was it make was it making more friends through the book?
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.679
And I loved frustration.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:09.440
Um the interviews, I loved putting the book together.
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.000
So that was huge fun to me.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:13.679
I was not worried about a deadline.
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:18.480
It didn't, I wasn't paralyzed, you know, curled up in a fetal position, sobbing.
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.159
I never had any of that.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:25.679
Um but I'm also writers, that is partly the experience of writing sometimes, isn't it?
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.960
I mean there.
00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:27.840
Yeah.
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:39.519
But I'm used to I have a well-developed deadline muscle and a well-developed interview muscle from those years working at the newspaper, I'm pretty sure.
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:40.400
Yeah.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:44.880
But I'm also a seven on the Enneagram, as a lot of freelancers are.
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.800
So big party.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:50.239
Well, the book comes out, I do all the stuff, and then I'm on to the next party.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:50.719
Sure.
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.719
It's I I have a little more hard time long term.
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:55.199
Yeah.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.480
Still talking about the book.
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:56.800
Right.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:58.320
I can make a me do right now.
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:03.920
Like, you know, I've got 17 things to talk about, more people to interview, and more articles to write.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:10.239
And so that has been a little bit has been way harder for me, is is the long tail.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:12.320
I think the book has a long tail.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:12.800
Yeah.
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:17.679
Whether I have the long tail, I have to really have to keep up with it.
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:18.880
Do chickens have tails?
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:19.599
Yes, they do.
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:20.239
They do.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:20.559
Yeah.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:28.320
Our dog, who was trained as a puppy not to hurt the chickens, would put one under her paw and pull out the tail of the feathers.
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:28.960
Yeah.
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:29.119
Oh.
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:30.960
We would be like, no, no kill.
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:33.119
Just pull out the tail feathers.
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:33.440
So yes.
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.239
So just continuing to talk about it.
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:41.599
Um, sometimes it's whether it can be connected to your day job or not, too.
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:42.159
Right.
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:47.679
That's one of the things I often say to authors is what is your day job and how can you make a connection between this work and your day job?
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:49.920
Because that's gonna that's what's gonna matter.
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:54.480
That's where that's where the rubber's gonna meet the road, so to speak, with with long-term sales.
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:56.159
Fit it into what you already do.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:56.639
Right.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:56.880
Yeah.
00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:02.719
And I think it is about creativity because nobody's not so many people talk about that.
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:09.280
So if I talk about creativity at ACFW in a conference that's Christian fiction writers conference, yeah.
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:11.440
American Christian fiction writers, right.
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:17.119
Um, they're getting a lot of things on very specific aspects of writing.
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:17.679
Right.
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:19.280
And not just writing necessarily.
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:21.679
And this is a bigger, this is an overview.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.400
How do you how do you tap into your creativity?
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:29.199
Because some of them are long term and they've they're done, they they're tired, they don't have any more ideas.
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.519
Some of them are new, and how do you harness it?
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:37.440
So that's where I think Chicken Scratch will do well, is in that way.
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.800
And that's why I wonder about a different title than Chicken Scratch.
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:42.000
Sure.
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:43.840
And it was great to begin with.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:44.239
Right.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:51.920
Even as you approach it in this future iteration, it's just becoming more clear that it's it's about creativity and the many ways you connect to that.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.480
So really valuable book, I imagine.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.039
Thank you.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:55.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:56.079
I read it.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:56.880
What am I saying?
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:57.440
I endorsed it.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.199
So yeah, yeah.
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:00.079
Nice.
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.880
So so what about what's creative for you going forward?
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:11.599
You you know, you have your usual gigs, but what do you creatively for you want to do going forward, writing or not, or whatever, writing, hopefully.
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:16.559
Well, I've like you, Mick, have started some book coaching.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:17.119
Yeah.
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:20.320
Which is creative in its own way because it's really therapy.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:21.360
Right, it is.
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:21.840
Yes.
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:22.960
And we're not therapists.
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.320
Therapy for you or therapy for the um therapy for the author.
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.159
So I always ask, what are you afraid of?
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.960
And so I enjoy that.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:47.840
Um, my own work going forward, I do have a book that I need to get to a publisher who's even asked for it, and I'm fiddled, as my brother would say, fiddle crapping around and not doing it on elder care.
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:48.239
Oh.
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:52.159
Because this is what I've been done for the last three years.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:54.719
And it's not about how to do elder care.
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:56.079
There's a million books on that.
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:58.719
It's what we learn as caregivers.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:00.159
Oh, human beings.
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:06.639
As what it what did I learn in dealing with my elderly parents?
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:07.199
Yeah.
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:10.639
And so getting essays from a whole bunch of people on that topic.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:10.960
Wow.
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:11.440
Oh, wow.
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.360
Because we've all learned.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:26.880
I mean, my friend Tracy learned that her dad, while stubborn and mule-headed, wanted to care for her mother because he was a he had been a hero his whole life as a sheriff, uh sheriff's deputy.
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:33.440
So he was only being the hero he'd always been while also being stubborn and not getting the care.
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:36.880
But it helped her to understand that about him.
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:47.599
And so that's the kind of thing we want to do is what do we learn as children or as caregivers that taught us something?
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:50.159
So I need to get busy on that.
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:55.760
And I'm actually going to Grenada on Saturday for a writing retreat.
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:57.920
Oh, I remember you mentioning this before.
00:50:57.920 --> 00:50:58.480
Yeah.
00:50:58.800 --> 00:50:59.039
Yeah.
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:00.320
I started packing.
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.079
So I want to work on that then.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:03.280
And for how many days?
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:04.000
A week.
00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:04.400
Yeah.
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:04.880
Wow.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:11.599
And uh I've got two ghostwriting gigs going on and working on that.
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:14.320
And I also book book length ghost ghostwriting gigs.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:14.639
Wow.
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:15.119
Two of them.
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:15.360
Wow.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.800
Which fiction, nonfiction, nonfiction.
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:19.760
Nonfiction, obviously.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:20.000
Yeah.
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:20.159
Yeah.
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:21.679
But yeah, that's the work.
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:22.719
Yeah, that's the work.
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:24.079
Yep.
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:24.400
Yeah.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:29.199
And you know, they have a vested interest in their book putting out.
00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:33.519
And uh and I think years of experience teach you not to take it personally.
00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:34.079
Yeah.
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:38.159
Not to own all of this with all my emotions.
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:39.920
I'm like, it's your book.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:40.960
It's right.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:42.639
It's a product at the end of the day.
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:42.960
Yes.
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.000
It's gotta work for everybody.
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:44.400
Yeah.
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:44.719
Yeah.
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:49.599
And then um still doing the articles for PW and Grand Rapids Magazine.
00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:53.679
I'm gonna do one for the magazine on dogs in healthcare.
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:54.320
Oh.
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:54.880
Nice.
00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:06.639
Which I talked to a guy in my church during the meet and greet, you know, meet and greet everybody, and he he works for Corwell, and they use dogs in their security.
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:11.679
So I thought, you know, yeah, you can always do therapy dogs.
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:11.840
Right.
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:15.039
But dogs, animals are used much more often in healthcare.
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:15.679
So that'll be fun.
00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:16.800
Yeah, what's that life like?
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:17.199
That's good.
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.199
Yeah, and and what are the dogs actually doing?
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:19.599
Yeah.
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:20.000
Right.
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:21.760
So that'll be fun.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.719
And uh, you know, doing pieces for PW.
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:25.840
So I have plenty to do.
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:27.199
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:28.159
It's it's fun.
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:29.119
I like the variety.
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:33.039
It keeps it interesting, and I think that's the the thing I like about editing as well.
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:36.000
It's much more diverse than you realize.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:40.559
You think, oh, I'm just working on books the same thing all the time, but it's never the same thing.
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:42.960
They're never the same book, they're never the same author.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.760
Never the same topic, never the same style.
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:46.480
Yeah.
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:48.480
And you get to learn stuff.
00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:49.119
Right.
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.559
And it's just endlessly sort of it's never repetitive.
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:59.519
I guess that's what's interesting to me is that you would think anyone looking in from the outside would think, well, that's that's so repetitive.
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:03.519
Or, you know, maybe they're just not book people, and oh, I I don't read books.
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:10.880
But like if if you're into it, if you like books, there's no end to the fun and the creativity that you can have.
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:13.199
What kind of books do you edit?
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.119
Are you doing a macro editing?
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.480
Okay.
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:19.119
I do I do mostly nonfiction.
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:20.800
I've done some ghostwriting.
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:24.320
Um, I I coach uh both fiction and nonfiction.
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:30.960
I've got a middle grade um sort of fantastic story about a marmoset monkey right now.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.400
So I mean it's it's just whatever comes in the way.
00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.840
And yeah, it's it's usually reference.
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:39.679
I was gonna say it's connection, isn't it?
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:40.639
Yes, always.
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:44.320
Um I've been on Readsy, I'm not a fan.
00:53:44.320 --> 00:54:02.960
I I know I'll get some hate for this, but like, you know, I find the best projects, at least for me, come from a recommendation from someone that I know or they know me, and they say, Hey, you should work with Mick, and then they give them some of what I've done before, and then I'm I'm coming in and they already know who I am.
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:12.079
I have three jobs all from recommendations, one coaching, one editing, one one um ghostwriting.
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:12.639
Nice.
00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:13.920
All from recommendations.
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.960
And I've sure started the process of with Readsy.
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:20.239
Okay, but I haven't gotten I just haven't had time to finish the thing.
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:21.920
It was kind of a headache for me.
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:26.559
I got like a hundred requests or something, and none of them worked.
00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:27.440
I mean, I'm not kidding.
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:28.000
It was that many.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.920
And I finally just took it down.
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:31.360
It's it's suspended right now.
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:35.840
But uh yeah, it it works probably for some people who are willing to do the slog.
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.599
I I've been around a little while and I I think I got more specific.
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:42.960
I I'm looking for authors who really want to work, I guess.
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:49.119
Somehow being in a world of recommendations is that is where there's more human connections.
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:52.239
There's more it in a way, it kind of helps filter things.
00:54:52.239 --> 00:55:06.800
It helps filter content areas, totally um experience levels, um you know, it's just the these are sort of unwritten, you know, intangibles that that matter so much that you can't get when you're up on an online service.
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:07.679
That's right.
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:21.840
And and in books, I've I've always maintained that it it is a deeper art than even, you know, I'd say television writing, film writing, I mean any kind of screenwriting, it it requires more of your brain just to write it.
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:28.400
Um there's just there's more going on in a book, typically, than than are what you're seeing on the page.
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:31.039
So that's why a community is so necessary.
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:37.039
And I think I mean that's that's the note I'd love to end on, is is this idea of community and that we're all a part of it.
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:46.000
Whether we, you know, have done this ever before, I mean, this is the first time we've all sat down together, but we've known of each other, we've been in in each other's circles for a long time.
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:50.480
Um and I know that that will continue with all of the people that I've talked about.
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:54.960
We've talked about being a good human, is like what that's one of the qualities we like most about an author.
00:55:54.960 --> 00:56:00.000
And you you're being a good human by just being willing and able to talk to people in any context and situation.
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:01.199
And a great representative.
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:02.559
That builds connections.
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:02.800
Yep.
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:03.440
That's the heat.
00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:12.159
It is connection and community and being a decent human and keeps those ties strong.
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:14.400
Even if it means yelling about headlines sometimes.
00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:16.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.960
Because when I left the press or just taking a break.
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:19.199
Yeah.
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:20.239
You know, if yeah.
00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:24.880
I mean, if I had left the press poorly, I would never have been freelancing for them.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:31.039
If I had left Moody Press poorly, would Jerry Jenkins have been willing to talk to me through the years?
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:31.440
No.
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:32.000
Yeah.
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:39.039
So it's it's community, it's connection, it's being a good literary citizen, being a good human.
00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:45.840
I love to write stories about people I don't know, things that I don't know about and eager to learn about, and I think that's part of the connection.
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:46.639
Yeah.
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:47.119
Yeah.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:48.719
Don't speak ill of people.
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:55.119
Uh often I will speak ill of you know decisions and results of those decisions.
00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:57.119
And we we've done our share of that already.
00:56:57.119 --> 00:56:58.000
We'll do more.
00:56:58.000 --> 00:56:59.599
Critique is still important.
00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:03.119
Critique is important, and I think there's a dearth of it in Christian spaces.
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:05.280
So I I think it's doing a service.
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.000
But um, yeah, no, thank you for being here.
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:09.599
I really been an honor.
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:09.840
Thank you.
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:11.039
Yeah, I hope you do it again.
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:11.920
Where can people find you?
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:14.559
Anbile.com and biowriter.com.
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:16.079
Anbilewriter.com.
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:18.480
Anbile B-Y-L-E.com.
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:22.559
Get her book Chicken Scratch, watch for her feature articles in PW.
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:30.960
You can get the religion bookline free newsletter free if you go onto the PW site and you search around for their newsletters, and you're sometimes in that.
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:31.199
Yeah.
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:34.880
Oh, yeah, that's who that's what I write for primarily, not print.
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:37.360
And it's every other week on a Wednesday.
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:37.840
Yeah.
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:39.199
Yeah, I always check it out.
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:41.760
I think it's very important for people to stay connected too.
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.880
So thank you.
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:43.519
Thanks again.
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:44.719
You're most welcome.
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:45.519
It's been enjoyable.
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:45.920
Yeah.
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:46.320
Yeah.
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:48.159
We'll uh we'll catch you all next time.
00:57:48.159 --> 00:57:49.519
Thanks for being here, everybody.