Can We Forget Platform, Please? Calling All Pathfinders and Waymakers, with Ivy Zeller

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Yeah.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Publishing Disrupted.
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Uh, I am Mick Silva.
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And I'm David Morris.
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And we are exploring the ways in which book publishing is changing and how authors can best meet that challenge.
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Uh I am an editor.
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Uh we're former uh publishing professionals.
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I suppose we're still publishing professionals, but we just say, you know, former formerly of the industry, uh, Christian industry, that would be.
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And you are a publisher and literary agent.
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Yep.
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Yep.
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And we have one of your co-literary agents today with hyponymus.
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We have Ivy Zeller with us today.
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Welcome.
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Thank you so much.
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I'm happy to be here.
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It's excellent.
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It's great.
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We can do it live and in person.
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Absolutely.
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Not over Zoom or anything like that.
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This is great.
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It is great.
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Yeah.
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Um, well, if if I may, I will introduce Ivy.
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Please.
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Um, and I have, you know, Ivy is actually a person who could probably write several different bios if if uh she wanted to.
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And um, this one is from our Hyponymus website because we're colleagues at Hyponymus Literary.
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And here it says Ivy is a she they is a publishing professional with nearly a decade of industry experience, longtime editor who's worked with multiple presses, and also the author of Disabled Witchcraft and Undead Faith.
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That's a great title.
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She is passionate about the intersections of spirituality, creativity, and justice, and is currently seeking nonfiction manuscripts as an agent with these themes.
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Um, practical, unique, and creative takes on spirituality outside the norm and after faith.
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Such awesome phrasings there and all that.
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I'm liking it.
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Um but this isn't your full-on day job either.
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No, I'm sure.
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Like a lot of us, we're doing different things that we've been disrupted in the in the publishing world.
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We professionally, we're doing different kinds of things, professionally and semi-personally or semi-professionally.
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And I also so also I would recommend if you go look up Ivy uh like on her um Instagram page and you'll go to the uh bio, which I had pulled up here before, and then now it's gone, of course.
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Okay, and then go to the link tree.
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Now there's a there's another adventure going on here.
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On the link tree, it says uh book me for an editing project.
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So you edit on the side.
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Uh there's the literary agent part.
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Uh book a I'm just gonna read these down.
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Sure.
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And then we can pick on which ones to ask her to explain.
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All the hats.
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You got a lot of explaining to do.
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Book a pitch witch session.
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Uh here's your editorial portfolio.
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There's the all the threads newsletter, which I highly recommend on Substack.
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Substack, yep.
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Uh your book again, Disabled Witchcraft, Undead Faith, which is more of a zine online other book recommendations in your Instagram.
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But but you spend most of your professional hours throughout the week working for Microcosm Publishing.
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I'm an editor for them and I also manage the zines.
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Oh, so nice.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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And they're based out of Portland, Oregon, and Cleveland, Ohio, but I work remotely from Grand Rapids.
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Oh, that's so cool.
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I didn't realize they were also in Cleveland.
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Yeah, they have a warehouse there.
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Oh, okay.
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Okay.
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Yeah, I moved from Portland, Oregon, uh what, almost eight years ago now.
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Oh wow.
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Uh we lived there for yeah, about eight years as well, um, after Colorado and Seattle before that.
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Um, but yeah, I've been all over and and publishing is all over.
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It's not just in a few locales, although still we call it Colorado Springs the Christian publishing Mecca.
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Uh but Nashville's given it a pretty good run these days too.
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There's a lot of publishing that happens outside of the um you know normal places.
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And I guess that's true of all media, it's sort of like dispersed now, right?
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Or disrupted.
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Uh but so many recent changes have disrupted, I mean, even when it with we're not just talking about industry, but like, you know, continue to s to disrupt book publishing.
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So zines, like that is that's actually a very viable uh place to have zines, zines?
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Um usually it's zines, but I have heard zines before.
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So yeah.
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I'm old, so I just call it zines.
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Uh but yeah, that that is, that didn't used to be like when I was starting out in about 2000, uh, you know, you couldn't find them.
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There was maybe one or two.
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Um, particularly in sort of like the progressive space, like that was hard to find.
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Um, but I'm seeing it increasingly.
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Yeah.
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And I mean you're you're part of this.
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This is very cool.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, I got my start in Christian publishing.
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Okay.
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And during that time I deconverted.
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And so that was a very interesting space to be in figuring out what my next role would be.
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I was a freelancer for a while exclusively.
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And then um, about two and a half years ago, I started working for Microcosm, which is a more secular press that specializes in DIY content, activism, that kind of thing.
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Totally, yes.
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I mean, and you also have your book with Microcosm.
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I do, yes.
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Yeah.
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So my book came out in 2024, and I'm in the process of writing a couple more books.
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So very excited about that.
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And what do they what what are they known for, Microcosm?
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They're a unique company, for one thing.
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They really are as a publisher.
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Yeah, they started as a um zine distro and record label in the 90s in the punk scene.
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And then so they still do a lot of books about um punk history and things like that, um, but they also do DIYs.
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Wow.
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Um, they do basically everything DIY related.
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Um, my book is a witchcraft book, so they have some witchy stuff.
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Um and they really like unique and practical takes on things, and that's one reason I like working for them.
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It's a very accessible publisher.
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Um, and it really invites people into conversations about big topics without getting bloated with lots of big words.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's so cool.
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I'm on the website here and it's very punk.
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And it is, isn't it?
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I mean, just look at that left nav.
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Yeah.
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It's very different.
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Um but also their model is different.
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Like I've heard it said, and I'm not sure this is totally true or if it's the right way to characterize it, but I've heard it said they don't even bother with Amazon or they don't need Amazon.
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They um typically don't work, we don't work directly with Amazon.
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Um some of the distributors that we work with do work with Amazon.
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So you might see.
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Yeah, so you might see some of those, but they don't work directly with Amazon.
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And they have sliding scale rates and things like that for um books, and it's a really cool book marketplace as well, because they distribute books that aren't just microcosm books.
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Oh, okay.
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Sliding scale meaning for the consumer or for um for authors.
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That is on the side of the um warehouse, so I do not know that.
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Okay.
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Yeah, but they're they're really good at direct to consumer.
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They've got big email lists.
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They do, they do, and they do a great job of just entering into conversations that need to be had.
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There's a lot of queer books too, which is just so good.
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Yeah, that's cool.
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Yeah, I see a lot of like make your own sign here, um, publishing workbook for people, build your own book build business from the ground up.
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I mean, that appeals to me.
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That's the thing, yes.
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Yeah, that's the thing.
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Like getting into the indie sort of street cred crowd, which is very uh different from where you come from, right?
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The big, as we call it, the cruise ship of Christian um American publishing.
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Uh, you know, you gotta kind of find your way and you gotta become scrappy and and wear a lot of hats, as you as we've pointed out here.
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Like you you have to figure out the path.
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Yeah.
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And so, like, I think one of the benefits for us being able to have people, especially who can come in and talk to us about this, is like, I don't know, there's the validate there's the natural validation that happens because I had to figure out my own way, like um figure out how to get out of Christian publishing, but still stay, you know, somewhat amenable to projects, I suppose.
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Like sometimes, obviously, you're not just like completely straight arming everybody, although sometimes I feel like I want to.
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Um, but like you're you're trying to now come out of the big Christian publishing cruise ship as well, and and establish yourself.
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So, like we're trying to find like beyond our own personal validation, obviously.
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And validation's valid, like we need it, everyone needs it.
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Uh, but like to ask you how how has that been for you?
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Like trying to figure out your own path.
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I mean, did it start with trauma?
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Did it start with some difficulty that you were seeing you couldn't make it work here in Christian publishing?
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Or yeah, so to answer this question, we have to go a little further back into my background.
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I was raised in a very fundamentalist doomsday type cult environment.
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Yeah.
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Um, I lived on a compound in the woods with my family.
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Wow.
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And so kind of a wild way to start.
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Um Do they have a name or um so like the technical term for what my family believed would be, let me see if I can get all the right adjectives.
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Christian fundamentalist, predispensational, premillennial Baptists.
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Yep.
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Oh, that's very clear.
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Yes.
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I know exactly what you're talking about now.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And a lot of people who listen do.
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Yeah, that's very good.
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But you have a less jargony way of talking about it, which you just offered as well.
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Yeah.
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Um, so I will, I'm an ex-vangelical, and I will often say that I deconverted from Christo fascism.
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Great.
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Because it was so directly tied into the politics of the right, and which is not, and as I grew in my faith um as an adult, I I was increasingly uncomfortable with my faith being tied to the end times and uh the right and fascism.
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And at the time, as I started asking those questions, I was working for a pretty conservative Christian publisher.
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And I was doing a lot of whimsical work for them.
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I was actually making zines for them, devotional zines.
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Okay.
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And I loved it, but I knew that my beliefs would not be welcome there.
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And um my body was starting to break under the pressure.
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I was getting migraines all the time.
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It wasn't good.
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And so that was also before I had come to terms with my queerness.
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I did not know that I was a lesbian yet.
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And so I was dealing with all of that all at once, and so I stepped away.
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I was really fortunate to be able to do that and to switch into freelance work.
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And I still had to take on a lot of projects back then that were a little too aligned with my upbringing, but that's how I started.
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And then I slowly began to write publicly about my experiences on all the threads, and then started to reach out to other publishers, including Lake Drive.
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Um, that's how we first started getting to know each other because you had edited for us.
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I did, yeah.
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And I um was so impressed with the work Lake Drive was doing with basically deconstruction memoirs, deconversion memoirs, and just different stories about faith that were a little bit broader and kinder and more progressive.
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Um, and that was something that I wanted to participate in.
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And so I did that, and then eventually I got a job at Microcosm.
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Okay, yep, yep.
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And and I mean, we're talking fairly recent, like within the last 10 years, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um, I started working at Microcosm in December of 2023.
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Okay.
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I signed my book with them in July of 23.
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Wow.
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Yeah, that is wow.
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I mean, that is amazing.
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Like you were prepared.
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Yeah.
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I mean, there's so many of us who have been in the Christian industrial complex and it's so big and it it has like gravity that pulls you in.
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Yeah.
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And it's kind of hard to go into orbit around it, you know.
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It's hard to break out of the orbit.
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That's right.
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Um, we were talking about the word tethered for a little earlier.
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It's good, yeah.
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Escape velocity.
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But you, yeah, you achieved escape velocity.
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And um, you know, because it's like religion isn't necessarily meant to be all-encompassing of everything you do, including your job.
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Yeah.
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And that's that's kind of what happens a little bit by default in when when we're trying to be publishing people, because it's either like you're in New York publishing or or a broader world of publishing, or you're in this giant Christian world.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Um, and it's kind of there's not a lot of like in between.
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So you kind of made it all the way out, but but not without some spirituality intact.
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That's correct.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, because your book is about witchcraft.
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Um, your editing zines probably has something close connected to that.
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Yeah.
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Um, but it's also, I mean, there's also a certain spirituality about your business model that it's direct to consumer, it's more grassroots, it's more egalitarian, it's less hierarchical, yeah, it's less like about capitalism.
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Um that's just amazing that you made that that that happened.
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And I hope it's going well.
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It is.
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I hope after we said all that, it's not like quitting.
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Yeah.
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No, it's going really well.
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And you know, I can't speak for microcosm as a whole company, but um, I'm just an editor there, but I've they've treated me really well, and I'm really encouraged to see places like Microcosm and Lake Drive exist because I think those small indie pockets really make a big disruption positively in the industry.
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Um, because as you both know, there's so much consolidation with the big five, and it's nice to be working outside of the big five, and I would prefer to continue doing that.
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Bingo.
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Yes.
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Plan accordingly, people.
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Think about it as an author.
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Like, if you're trying to think where do I belong, which which is better, self-publishing or traditional.
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This this has like I don't think there's a more important consideration.
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I I think ultimately, yes, it does come down to making your money back if you're gonna put the money up to publish, but like who are you going to partner with is a very important consideration.
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And I I just see a lot of people not even it's just like they just want to skip past that.
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Yeah, I think publishing a book is a dream for so many people.
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And I was absolutely um in that mindset and wanted to publish a book very badly.
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And the book that I published took me probably between 10 and 15 years to get published.
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Yeah.
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Um and it it changed forms several times, especially since it was in the middle of a deconversion.
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Disabled Witchcraft started as a book about disability in the church.
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Um, and that didn't end up getting picked up because I didn't have enough platform, but Microcosm was open to talking about it with witchiness um without a platform.
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:19.919
So that was pretty cool.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:21.519
Yes, yeah.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:32.159
So, so explain to you know this Rube over here about witchcraft, because I I was raised not exactly like you, but a very fundamentalist.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:36.720
And that word, of course, right, was like, hey, you don't want you wanna touch it.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:36.960
Yeah.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.279
It's like it's like when I mention Freud to people.
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:39.919
Right.
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.039
Come on.
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.519
It's all it's actually that's just the same thing.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.279
Yeah, there's a lot of cultural boogeyman, basically.
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:48.080
And yeah.
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.960
Thank you.
00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:49.600
Yeah.
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:57.600
And I'm always fascinated by moral panics, and my my zine, Undead Faith, is about moral panics through the lens of monster myth.
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:04.639
Um, but going back to the um let me circle back, ADHD, apologies.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:06.799
We're all ADHD here today.
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:08.639
Yeah, you're among friends.
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:15.840
But we were talking about um what what rich what witchcraft is.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:21.200
And for me, my practice is pretty secular, and basically it's about infusing intention.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:26.799
Um, there's a lot of spiritual autonomy in that path and a lot of connection to nature.
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:28.879
And witchcraft is a big tent.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.919
There is a lot of different stuff, just like Christianity.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.919
Um, and so witchcraft for me is a little more spiritual practice than religion.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:36.320
Yep.
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.840
Um, but sometimes I will describe it as spicy placebo.
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.919
Um it's a lot of ritual.
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:46.320
Um, and a lot of us are just starved for ritual, especially when we grew up in church.
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:46.639
Right.
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.759
And yeah, so that's that's what witchcraft is to me.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:50.399
Yeah.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:57.600
And I mean, to just I can hear all of the like arguments, and both of our moms listen to this podcast.
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:09.759
But like, you know, we go, okay, is there is there uh room for exploration, right, within your particular chosen flavor of spiritual practice?
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:15.200
Uh room for experimentation, room for like figuring out your own path, I guess, right?
00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:15.599
Yeah.
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:22.240
Like that's what I found that was missing a lot when it was being prescribed to me in the church.
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:39.759
And what I appreciate now is when someone like you comes along and and isn't afraid, or maybe even uses some of the phrases that were cultural boogeyman in order to sort of break down some of the barriers or or even just indicate to people like this is different, right?
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.920
We're we're exploratory, we're open-ended, we're we're not looking for necessarily answers so much as like other questions that we could ask.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:49.680
That's the thing, it's about questions.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.279
And I will say, unfortunately, because I asked those questions, I did lose a lot of contacts in the industry.
00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:56.400
You're gonna, yeah.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:09.920
Um but it was something I needed to do to be my authentic self, and I wanted to write in a way that was inclusive of all paths, and so that was the route I picked, and I wouldn't change it.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:16.240
I, you know, wish obviously that those conversations could have been left open with some of those uh contacts I lost.
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.720
Um, but yeah, sometimes those boogeymen are a little bit too scary.
00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:21.920
Yes, right.
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.839
Yeah, yeah, and and maybe you're selective in which ones you want to take on certain people.
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:28.160
Yes.
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:28.880
Yeah.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:30.880
Yeah, no, that's so interesting.
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.440
I feel like I could talk about this like a long time.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:34.000
Yeah.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:41.680
What what is so let's let's shift gears back to our our podcast theme, but we always want to hear your interpretation of it, yeah, your version of it.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.480
Um the the theme of disruption.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:46.559
So we've heard a little bit about your disruption.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.440
Um it was professional, personal or professional spiritual.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:59.039
Um and uh how do you see the the world, the industry being disrupted today?
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:02.319
We talked we we touched a little bit on that when we're talking about microcosm.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:06.319
Um and what do you think is going on with with publishing?
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:19.839
What do you think the the problem is or the big changes or I think our big problem is consolidation, but I think the response to it has been all of this wonderful flourishing of indie stuff.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:26.400
And these um one reason I like microcosm's model is it's in the name, it's a microcosm, it's small.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:41.200
Right, and finding those communities, those small niche communities, and maybe worrying less about huge platform numbers and more worrying about can this person authentically step into writing a book on the subject that is going to help readers.
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:41.759
Right.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:46.880
Um, so that's kind of what I'm seeing and um what the changes I'm rooting for.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:57.839
So less consolidation, more flourishing of authors that are really competent and really ready to talk on subjects that are of interest to the readers and that will help people.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:19:59.599
Nerds, not celebrities.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:00.000
Yes.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.480
Yeah, so consolidation, explain what you mean by what is meant by call consolidation.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:16.000
Uh because we have the big five in publishing, and that it's not just that, oh, there's these five big companies, it's that they is that the big five keeps buying up small imprints in indie presses.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.720
And that especially if there's any mid-level ones.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:19.039
Exactly.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:20.079
There aren't very many left.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.519
The mid-level is not a thing as much anymore.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.960
And um and it's I I that does concern me.
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:39.440
And so I'm always going to be rooting for disruptions of that trend because monopolies or anything close to them are not good for readers, they're not good for consumers, they're not good for writers.
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:40.000
Right.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.079
That's just just not great for anybody.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:43.759
I agree.
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:49.519
I think we've we've talked about you know the celebrity book trend, we've we've talked about consolidation a lot.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:55.119
I think these are the sort of big machinations of the industry that's and those things, those two things kind of go together.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:55.680
They do.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.480
I mean, obviously, that's you're looking for the biggest numbers possible.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.240
We've we've had people in publishing.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:02.559
Scale, economies of scale.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.640
Yeah, they only want to publish the biggest books.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.400
Right.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:12.319
And and they'll uh you know, excuse that because they have big revenue goals, and you know, this this is the lingo.
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:18.880
Um, you know, we we have to do right by our our basically our bottom line um shareholders, right?
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:24.720
There's a little bit of room left over for acquiring things of great merit, and hopefully they'll go viral, but they often don't.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:25.680
Yeah, and that's the thing.
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:26.480
Some do.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.799
That's and there's examples, but often they don't.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.880
Increasingly it's just lip service to say, you know, we're gonna give you and I I was told this from the very beginning.
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:40.079
I mean, this is way back in you know 2000 and and even before then, people were using that line.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:55.599
Not just that someone's gonna do it if we don't, and then secondly, you know, we'll give you uh, you know, one book out of ten that can be a heart project or you know, somebody who's not known and we let you, you know, prove to us that they're a good author if they s if they can sell.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.599
And of course, it was always on them to make sure they were selling the book and like.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:01.359
Big publishers are doing this.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:01.759
Right.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.319
Yeah.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:10.480
And selling that line endlessly to to you know un unbeknownst to them authors who are they're cash cows, basically.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:10.960
Yeah.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:16.960
And they can continue to do it because they're big and they have the the clout and supposedly the credibility to do it.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:20.400
But independent stuff does not have that going for it.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.920
They always have to prove themselves.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:29.759
There's always this, like, you know, it's especially with authors, you're not given a whole lot of money up front.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:38.720
You're not told that you're gonna be great and amazing and that they're gonna take care of all the mark marketing, and like you're not given that cruise ship sort of appeal.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:45.359
No, and I think that's something when people come to me with books, I do these things called pitchwitch sessions.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.039
Yes, we did want to ask about that.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:54.000
Um basically another more jargony way to call them um is publishing resourcing conversations.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:55.119
Oh, that's good.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:08.319
Um basically what I do is I sit down with somebody who has a book idea and I talk to them about what their options are in the industry, and then I look at the manuscript a little bit and talk about what might be some really good specific options.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:24.000
One of the things I do talk about is zines because sometimes you'll get a lovely project that I know is not going to get picked up, and then it's just like, hey, if you want to start a little audience for this, make a zine and plug into your local zine community, and I bet you you can get some higher numbers.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:24.480
Yep.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.079
Um What is a zine community?
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.599
What do you mean a local where do you find a local zine community?
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:43.440
Um so most major cities have zine fests, which are usually annual events where zine sters get together and there's a big trading uh culture in zine in the zine world where it's like comic cons.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:44.400
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.319
So I'll give you my zine, you give me your zine.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:46.960
Like a printed.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:58.240
Um because historically zines were printed, and now we're starting to see more digital zines, um, which is mostly what at Microcosm I work with the physical zines.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.519
Outside of microcosm, I work with um the digital zines.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:02.400
Nice, okay.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:03.279
Yeah, that's cool.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.319
What and what what is what's going on in zine culture?
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:07.599
Like what's the big stuff?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.480
Or or what's the what is the the spectrum?
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:18.160
Zines are an incredible range of heart projects, like you talked about, but sometimes they have very helpful information.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:28.880
So sometimes you'll see something where someone will identify all the leaves in a local, in a hyper-local area, and they will draw them out, and they have made all these hand-drawn zines of that.
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:40.480
So you have that on one side of the spectrum, and then you have uh zines that get produced by like the Pride Center or something like that, with about important queer sex education information.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:45.359
So zines, and then you have cool, funny, off-the-wall comics.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.799
That is zine culture includes all of that.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:56.400
And I think um, because the cost of entry is so low, it's a great first option for authors who don't have a big budget.
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.000
Cost being you print this.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:58.799
You print this.
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:00.000
You can have a design.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:00.640
Yeah.
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:09.039
You can um programs like Canva and stuff like that are starting to get good enough where you can design it, you can format your own.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:11.839
Yeah, they have templates for the template.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:12.720
The zine templates.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:19.759
Templates and you can also um you can also like Microsoft Word has zine templates too.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.400
Oh also Man, we are old.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.920
That's a starter, that's a starter set.
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:26.799
But yes.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:33.759
Um, and basically the other thing you can do too is you can fold the paper yourself and handwrite it.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.720
That's the history of zine.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:35.680
That's so fun.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.039
And you can print it at the library.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.759
I have printed my zines at the library we are sitting at.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:40.720
That's awesome.
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.240
I think of like Far Farmer's Almanac and how popular that was, right?
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:45.519
And like Garrison Keeler.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.000
And like from those days, this is nothing new.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:48.720
Right.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.119
But it's it's alternative.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:55.680
So this gets back to the to the like the disruption that's going on.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:06.000
And they're like one of the things I say to authors is with the digital revolution, it's made it's made us more segmented, and we're more about vertical audiences than horizontal ones.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.319
I liked how you use the word local audience, yes, too, particularly with zines.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.839
And I think that's that's both at Lake Drive and Hyponymus.
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.759
I work in the words like it's really about finding your particularity.
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:27.200
That's where the authenticity is, and and the yeah, that's and that's where even sort of like the cool material is to write about.
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:35.200
Instead of trying to be the next big Christian influencer and competing with all the other people who are saying the same things, and boy, did we publish a lot of the same things.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.079
It was a it was a struggle sometimes to make books sound different from each other.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:39.279
That was the thing, man.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:53.119
Yeah, so many people just because everything is like a Xerox copy of like something from and then it chews them up, and you're like, you didn't have to do that, like you know, a lot of money and chews them up and well it's because they're told like that's what you have to do to compete.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:01.200
Yeah, and and you see them coming in with wide eyes, and you're like, ah, you're gonna get the hooks in you, and it it's not gonna go well.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.960
Yeah, and then you're not gonna sell.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:15.039
And I I know so many people who have and and not to say that's only in traditional publishing, but like so many people who have tried to become that, you know, coveted mid-list author, it just didn't work out for one reason or another.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.519
And then they go and try to self-publish and they realize like, well, well, they should have been doing that the whole time.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:20.640
Like they wasted so much time.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:21.599
Uh yeah.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:28.960
And that's why I do those publishing resourcing conversations, because people usually come to me and say, Hey, can you edit my book?
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:34.400
And editing for it to be viable for me is pretty cost prohibitive for a lot of authors.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:39.359
And I don't want to just edit their book and leave them with less money than they started.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:39.680
Right.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:44.640
So I'm like, we're gonna know where to push or a publishing resourcing conversation, depending on who I'm talking to.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.359
Um, and see where they want to go.
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:53.119
And once they decide where they want to go, I let them know if I have any editing services that could be of help along that journey.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.279
Because again, I'm I'm team author.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:00.799
I don't want, I don't want people to be spending money that they don't have to produce books that they want to produce.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:01.599
That's right.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.000
Yeah, and you have to broaden that conversation.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:04.319
Yeah.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:05.759
Take people back a couple of steps.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:06.000
Yeah.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:06.799
That's what I do too.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.079
So, what about um your own experience as an author?
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:10.400
Yeah.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:19.359
You know, being local and being more authentic and being more connected to an audience that what has been your experience?
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:21.200
Like have you had readers reach out to you?
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.839
Have you have you experienced more different kinds of community that you didn't know that was there?
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:34.079
I so my book, Disabled Witchcraft, is about witchy things, but specifically through a disabled lens.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.759
And there wasn't anything at the time like that.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.759
Um, and I wanted to start the conversation.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.039
Give an example?
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:41.599
Yeah.
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:46.160
Um, so disability requires a lot of accommodations.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:51.839
And when I wrote the book, my allergies were not in remission, and I couldn't go to witchy shops because the incense would give me a migraine.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:52.480
Oh, sure.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:53.039
Oh man.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:29:03.519
Um, and so that was one of the things I talked about in the book about how can we make our spaces, our circles, even more inclusive to other practitioners.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.839
Um, and also another big part of the book is financial accessibility.
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:22.720
Um, how can we not spend so witchcraft, just like any spiritual path, has a capitalist arm where it's like, well, if you buy all these pretty crystals, if you buy all these books, that's going to be make you a good witch.
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.160
And it's like, no, you can just use what you have and you can still practice.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.200
Like spiritual practice should not have a cost of entry.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:31.519
It's not just an arm, it's like more like a dimension.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:41.039
Capitalism is like it it kind of penetrates and how do you it's like if an arm you can cut off, but a dimension is like takes over the entire body.
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:41.440
Yes.
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:42.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:43.039
Yes.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.160
That's good.
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.200
So so your experience in getting this book out there like that, how is that how's that been for you?
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:50.400
It's been really good.
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.400
Um, the response has been excellent.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.880
Um, I sold through my first print run.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:03.599
And um one of my most favorite moments was I had Googled my book just because I was curious, and it had it had been out for a while.
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.559
And I found this little Reddit thread, and it was a bunch of people talking about my book.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.279
Sweet.
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.880
They were just like, this was the book that we've always wanted and always needed.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.000
And so that was really I that was the that was the sweetest of the people you don't even know.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:18.480
Exactly.
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.279
So awesome.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.039
It was it really did my heart good.
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:29.920
And something that I tell authors at the beginning of their journeys is that when with conversations and books, you are entering a conversation.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:36.960
You're not going to have a completely original idea, but what you can have is your own lived experience and bring that to bear.
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:37.200
Right.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.720
And that's how you enter the conversation.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:40.799
And it's not comprehensive, it doesn't need to be.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:41.759
That's not the point.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.079
Yeah.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.160
A lot of people want to be comprehensive, and that that's a that's a good way to describe it.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:46.480
Yeah.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.400
You don't need to be just be yourself.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:48.960
Yeah.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:49.759
Yeah.
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:56.000
Recognize that there's going to be resistance and maybe try to hear some of those arguments and questions up front, right?
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.160
So you can address them in your book.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:30:59.599
That's really powerful.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:01.519
And I mean, that's an editing task, right?
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:04.480
That's what you do in the editing role.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.079
But like recognizing that there's going to be resistance and then taking it on effectively.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:12.240
Like that, I mean, that's good communication, right?
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:12.799
Exactly.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:20.559
It's just a very basic, uh, you know, give and take kind of relationship that you're trying to create with people, with with your readers on the page.
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:21.920
Like, and that's a journey.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:35.680
Um, personally, that's been a journey for I mean all of us, but like professionally, how to now effectively do that on the page in a book for people who are interested in that topic, how to find those people, how to connect with them.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:46.319
There's existing structures of communities, local communities, online communities that you can tap into to share your message with, and you just have to be open to finding them.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:47.119
Exactly.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:47.920
Yeah.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.680
Sorry, I got on a soapbox there.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.359
That was a good soapbox.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:56.480
This exists, people, and it's valuable and it's it's um a viable option.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:04.079
And I just love the fact that you're you're kind of a representative, like a witness to what's actually happening in the larger world.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:04.799
Yeah, right.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.559
It's been an honor to be a part of it.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.519
Like at the at the ground level, kind of too.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.160
I like what you said, like the entry level, the cost entry level for zines could be pretty low.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.200
I'd like to actually also talk about your Substack.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:17.519
Yeah.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.039
That's a low cost entry.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:23.200
Do you do you charge for optionally charge for So I optionally charge?
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:34.000
And if you are, and this is new, if you're a paid subscriber, um, you get uh a zine every month or or something like that, where I'll I will make something digital extra.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.200
Um but yeah, so that's kind of what we do.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:45.359
But um on the free side, about every week I do a random spiritual practice, which is usually whatever my ADHD is hyperfixated on.
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:56.480
Um and then um and I just sort of info dump about that and then tie it back to spirituality and then encourage discussion in the comments when that happens.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:57.119
And yeah.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:58.720
They're not long pieces.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.680
Nope, they're little, they're little little rituals.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:06.960
And and I've talked to I've talked to Ivy about can you turn those into long pieces?
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.400
Like, well, everything's spiritual.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.079
Yeah, we're talking about like uh everything.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:16.559
How would we say like uh disabled, witchy, uh devotional?
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:17.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.720
I see, I would love to use witch and devotional in the same way.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:21.839
I would argue you can.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.599
So let's try.
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.400
I I have to stops.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:27.839
No one's stopping us.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.000
I um kind of humorously.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.119
So my first job in Christian publishing was devotional zines, and they were 90-day zines.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:35.759
Oh, sure.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.000
Yeah.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.079
My first book was a 90-day witchcraft thing.
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:44.079
It was it's yeah, so I I'm a devotional writer.
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.519
I'm just not Christian.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:47.039
That doesn't stop, right?
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:47.680
That doesn't stop.
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.480
So I just want to read for everybody some of the titles of Ivy's Substack.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:56.079
You said the the spiritual practice ones are more on the side, right?
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:56.400
Yeah.
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:57.920
More what what comes to mind.
00:33:58.160 --> 00:33:58.319
Yeah.
00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:59.680
But you don't you don't stop.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:00.480
You put it on there.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.960
When you've got something, you're like, oh, let me lie, let me note that one down.
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.960
So secular-ish prayer as a spiritual practice.
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:14.480
Uh remembering as a spiritual practice, resistance as a spiritual practice.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.519
This is amazing.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.039
Words as a spiritual practice, archetypes as a spiritual practice.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:20.559
Tell me about hyperfixation too.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:21.840
It's been going on a long time.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:26.000
Yeah, and I don't mean to derail the conversation, I mean to like expand it.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:33.920
But like the hyperfixations that you were not able to like explore, I guess, yeah, in the actual devotional market, right?
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:39.039
You have to talk about Jesus, you have to talk about the I don't know what, four spiritual laws or something.
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.360
Yeah.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:42.079
Like this is this is outside the box.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:47.039
This is taking, let's say, taking the baby out of the church walls, right?
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:54.480
And saying, like, there is what Richard Rohr calls Christ consciousness, universal Christ consciousness in all things.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:56.239
Like, can we explore this at all?
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:56.480
Yeah.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:57.599
But people are scared of that.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.239
Botanical encyclopedias is a spiritual practice.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.760
I think you picked one up, didn't you?
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:02.239
I did.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.480
I'm sitting in the library and I thought I saw one.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.039
Yes.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:10.239
Um but your hyperfixation is calling you and you decided to listen to it.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.000
Die as a spiritual practice.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.280
We're doing answer and call here.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:14.320
Yeah, that's true.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.719
I feel like I want to have her to explain this too.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:18.400
As in colored dyes.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:18.719
Yes.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:20.000
As a spiritual practice.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.760
Not die as a spiritual practice.
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:23.440
Colored dyes.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.000
Oh, right.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.320
Like um dying fabrics or something.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:34.400
One of my one of my hobbies is I take natural um materials and I dye various pieces of clothing and such.
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:35.840
And that's something I do.
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:37.039
I wish I could do it more.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:38.559
It usually happens about once a year.
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:39.039
Yeah.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.000
It's a process.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:40.400
Yeah.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:40.800
Yeah.
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.440
You're also good with um, how am I gonna say this?
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.920
Like some of your Instagram posts, you're made up.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:47.599
How would you characterize it?
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.960
Yeah, so my so my brand is spirituality, creativity, and justice.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:36:01.199
And that includes um what I wear and a lot of whimsy in like the like makeup looks.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:12.880
And that actually ties back to witchcraft because you uh there's this uh type of magic called glamour magic or clothing magic or color magic, and basically it's infusing intention with what you're doing.
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:18.079
So if I'm wearing something on my Instagram, there is absolutely 100% intention behind it.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.920
Every piece that it shows up.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.320
I I love thrifting and finding weird stuff.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:22.960
Totally.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:23.360
Yeah.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.159
When are you gonna throw a party at your house and invite us over?
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:26.960
That's amazing.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:28.079
I live in the house.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.199
I'll do cosplay.
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.679
I lived in wet West Hollywood for a long time.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:47.679
And so like the guys would come in, I worked at a bar, I was a bartender, and they would come in in half drag basically, because they had already been performing like most of the evening, and they'd come in, I had the day shift, and you know, still makeup and stuff, but they'd have the wig off and they'd they'd ask me why I was not gay, and I'd say, I don't know.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.199
I don't know why you do you tell me, like they were convinced I was.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:56.880
But like, you know, it was always this thing that that like there's these two worlds that exist, right?
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:57.360
Yeah.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.039
Simultaneously, that's and and don't understand each other.
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:09.360
But that was my first introduction to like you can get get this life experience from cosplay or like just being someone else for a while.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:15.440
Like you can learn about who you actually are, your own identity from being someone else, or like role-playing, I guess.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:16.960
Yeah, oh absolutely.
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:17.360
Yeah.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:33.199
I have a post coming out um in a couple of weeks about DD, so TTRPG role-playing games, and how they can be a spiritual practice because I know this is what will probably come as a shock, but um this was my I am actually right now in my first DD campaign ever.
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:33.760
Nice.
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.480
It was super forbidden when I was up.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:43.679
But yeah, but now I am in a group um with a very diverse it's a diverse group of people, and I love that.
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:51.199
Um, and so we're doing a DD campaign um in a fantasy world, and I am playing Lark Rose Branch, an elf druid.
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:53.920
Oh come on, that's gotta be fun.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.199
Is that something you picked?
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:55.920
That is.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:56.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.039
So you have a campaign person.
00:37:59.039 --> 00:37:59.519
Yes.
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:00.880
So I have the DM.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:01.119
Yeah.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:01.760
Okay, yeah.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:01.920
Yeah.
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.440
You devise that name too?
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:03.920
Yeah.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:04.320
Yeah.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:04.800
Yeah.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:05.840
That's awesome.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:07.199
My next book is about names.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:08.480
That would be so fun.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:09.840
Your next book is about names?
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:10.960
About names, yeah.
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:12.159
Like choosing names.
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:13.280
Yes, about choosing my names.
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:14.960
So Ivy is a chosen name for me.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:15.360
Okay.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:15.760
Yep.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.360
Um, and I specifically it's looking at nature names.
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.320
So I have been diving into all kinds of botanical encyclopedias and astronomy encyclopedias.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.960
And I got a bunch of bird ones today.
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:27.760
Nice.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:28.239
Wow.
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:33.760
I love this because I I worked on a book um that was talking about how God names us.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:42.639
Like this is a trope in in evangelical culture that uh God names us and gives us a bunch of names, and we give God a bunch of names, and and there have been whole books written about this.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:50.159
But to give yourself your own name, now you're getting into something that would be relegated to the dark side, right?
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:54.000
Because you're choosing either against God or not consulting him.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:54.639
Yeah.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.280
So, like choosing your own name, I think, is a very interesting concept.
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:06.960
And uh in the book, I'm including a ritual about changing your name because I think that spirituality can be a part of that.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:13.920
And I think there is a false dichotomy around choosing your own name versus God, whereas I think they can come together.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:15.039
Absolutely.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.840
And yeah, I I'm excited to uh share more about that as I have more updates.
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:20.719
That's very cool.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:21.840
I'll want to read that.
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:26.960
Wow, I need to do some research on you when I go home because there's a lot of stuff that I I missed.
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:31.280
I kind of scratched the surface, of course, because you know, we try to make sure our guests feel welcome.
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:36.159
But like you have so much to get interested in that I like didn't know where to look.
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:38.079
There's just all these places.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.960
And I love that David found you, or you found David, and like you guys get to work together.
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.719
And so, yeah, I'm hopeful we can continue our relationship.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:53.599
I have one more question, and um, you've kind of answered the third part of our podcast format already.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:55.679
Like, what are the what's the disrupting you're doing?
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.800
It I think it's just been evident since the very beginning of this chat.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.119
Um, but where what how would you like to grow professionally?
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.199
Yeah, I am loving being a literary agent.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:12.239
That's a newer development, and that's something I had wanted to do for most of my career.
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:18.159
Um, I also just really love creating books and developing books.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:27.280
And so basically the um the area I want to be more in is that is that like development and acquisition side.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:35.280
And um because I love helping people figure out where their books can land and being a literary agent is a really great way to do that.
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:43.679
And so when you say development part, oh yes, you mean you mean helping an author who's trying to get a book deal develop their book.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:44.320
Exactly.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.519
Or and at work, that means books.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:49.360
I develop books in-house as well.
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:54.239
So um I will get assigned books and um I get to develop some really cool ones.
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.039
One that I helped develop just recently went to print.
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:58.719
It's called Indigenous Punk.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:04.480
And it covers it's an it's an encyclopedic resource of all kinds of indigenous punk bands.
00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:05.199
Wow.
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:06.000
Yeah.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:07.840
That's so cool.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:09.039
Okay, wait a minute.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:10.000
I don't even know.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.039
I'm gonna have to re-listen.
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.320
I'm gonna listen to this whole podcast.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.440
That's just that's created a new category in my brain.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.599
I don't even know where to start with that.
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:18.400
That's awesome.
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:22.719
I call my newsletter All the Threads because there's a lot of threads in my life.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:24.400
It's like a variegated ball of yarn.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.480
So then the new you have a new book in the works, right?
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:28.960
Yep.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.440
And then what do you do is that have an on-sale date, a release date?
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:32.320
Um not yet.
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:32.880
Okay.
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:35.840
Um, but once I have that, I will definitely let you both know.
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:37.760
What can you say about it?
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:39.519
Um mostly what I've said.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:41.760
It's a book about um nature names.
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.880
And then I'm also working.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:44.639
Oh yeah, oh you're good.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:50.480
Um, and it's um I'm also working on a book about witchcraft and being genderqueer.
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.960
Um two at the same time.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:53.519
Right.
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:55.679
And the best place for people to find you?
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.559
Um, so my Linktree has most of the links.
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:06.800
So linktree.com slash ivyzeller, and then on Instagram, I'm ivy.nix nyx dot zellerz-e-l-l-e-r.
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:07.920
Nice.
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.440
And then they can find you there.
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:10.320
They can.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:12.719
Man, there's so much more we could talk about.
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.239
I feel like this should be a two-parter.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.280
Like, will you come back?
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:16.000
Absolutely.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:17.119
This was so fun.
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:18.559
Yeah, thank you so much.
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:19.440
Thank you so much.
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:20.480
Thank you for having me.
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:21.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:39.840
And and people listening, like, I I know there's a lot here to digest, and and certainly we're busy people, but I I was just reminded recently, and I think David, you sort of touched on this too earlier when we were talking, like there's just a lot that you have to unplug from in order to like plug into the stuff that you are choosing that you want to explore.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:45.440
And if you're hearing that voice in your head that's like, I don't know, I it's interesting, but I I'm not sure about it.
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:51.280
Well, just follow it, like you're doing with names, like follow that that hyperfixation, right?
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:52.639
Maybe it's not hyper for you.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.800
Maybe you're you're neurotypical and you just feel a curiosity.
00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:58.400
Follow that curiosity.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:42:59.519
Look, look this up.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:15.039
This this person's very interesting, she's got a lot of ideas, and there's there's things that we could like, I don't know, even if it's just constructive like disagreement or disrupting you in some way, like you're just acknowledging this and following it.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.119
I mean, just be humble with that, right?
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:18.239
Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying.
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:21.840
And unplug unplug, but you're not leaving community necessarily.
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:29.039
You're you're trying to go find more uh I don't want to use like some I don't want to use the typical overused words, but jargon.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:29.199
Yeah.
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:34.000
You're trying to find I mean, there's other kinds of community to be had out there, yeah.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:44.079
In terms of size and structure and color, and and we've we've all lived in a world, we're all plugged into a world that get to know something different.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:44.400
Yeah.
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:44.800
Yeah.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:51.280
It makes life bigger and longer and and fuller and richer, like all the descriptions that you've given us.
00:43:51.280 --> 00:44:03.280
I mean, you've given so much word and and language to things that I've I've felt, and I still struggle to kind of untether from my Old language and just be able to describe, you know.
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:09.360
So I think you're coming from a very um enlightened place and you have a lot to teach.
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:10.400
So it's very cool.
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:12.480
Uh cheers to liberation all around.
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:14.159
Here, here, yes.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.400
And I mean you're just personally interesting too.
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:17.760
So please do come back.
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:18.639
We'll do.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:20.320
All right, everybody, we'll talk to you next time.
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:20.960
Thanks for being here.
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:21.920
Thank you.