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Hey, this is Shabir Sulthan. In this episode of Project Zero, we explore Singaporean roots, fusion and whether there truly exists a Singapore sound. First up, we have Wang Chenwei, Composer-in-residence of the Singapore Chinese Orchestra and Head of Research and Education at the Teng Company. Wang Chenwei holds a Magister Artium with distinction from the University of Music and Performing Arts, Vienna. He's known for his numerous compositions, including<i>The Sisters Islands</i>, which won the Singapore Composer Award in 2006. His works have been performed internationally and he's received accolades such as the Young Artist Award from the National Arts Council Singapore. Next, we have Chok Kerong, a composer, producer and keyboardist recognized for his versatility. Kerong's arrangements and compositions have been performed by various renowned artists and ensembles, including his own chamber ensemble, Eleven. He's also known for his work in jazz, performing at prestigious events like the Tokyo Jazz Festival. This is Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore sound. PROJECT ZERO All right, so in this episode, we have with us Chenwei and Kerong. Thank you very much for joining me.– Thanks for having us.– Thank you, thank you. So this is Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore sound. I know Chenwei is going to have a bone to pick with the title itself because it says "Singapore sound", and Chenwei is a proponent of saying there must be "Singapore sounds", which is a cool thing, which is a very salient point, and I do agree with that. And that's what we're going to talk about today. And to start off, maybe Chenwei, you can tell us, you know, what's the scope of work that you do in the scene as a classical composer? And at the same time, what is your relationship with the Singapore sound, or sounds? Yeah, okay. Vanakkam Thiru Shabir(Greetings, Mr Shabir) Vanakkam Vanakkam. Neengal Sowkkiyamaa? (How are you?) Nala Irukkaen, Neenga Eppadi Irukkeenga?(I'm good, how are you?) Okay, so I'm the Composer-in-residence of Singapore Chinese Orchestra. I also teach composition modules at NIE(National Institute of Education) and orchestration for Chinese Music at NAFA (Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts). Most of my work has – in the recent years – has been for Chinese Orchestra even though my training was – my formal training in music was entirely Western. Yeah, so, I went to University in Vienna to study composition. It is actually just out of circumstances that I ended up so deeply engaged within the Chinese Orchestra community, and that was because when I was in secondary school, I was posted to the Chinese Orchestra. So basically, we had to choose the Co-Curricular Activities, fill in a form. And then we went to look at all the different music CCA's, and then I saw the military band, and they had to do push-ups! Then I thought, okay, I don't want to do push-ups! So what can I choose? Okay, so guitar ensemble and Chinese orchestra they surely don't need to do push-ups. So I filled in that, and I got posted to the Chinese orchestra. Actually I was just wondering, if the admin clerk had put my name under another CCA, my life would have been very different now. And I think it's quite similar. I can resonate with that because all I wanted to do was just sing songs, but I got inducted into the Tamil Language Learning and Promotion Committee, and that suddenly made me very interested in the language and the culture, and that led me to actually ask these questions. What is the meaning of being a Tamil person, an Indian, a Singaporean, all these things. So, I think all my existential questions started from there. Because before that I was just like, okay, I'm just doing music. I'm singing, you know, that kind of thing. And I think Kerong has got a very similar experience like that, where you came in and then you were predominantly – like you wanted to, as a child – you listened to a lot of pop. And you were experiencing that, and then jazz happened. And of course you're doing quite a number of things. The album with Vanessa was really cool because it's kind of genre fluid, right? It's going through funk, There is a bit of R&B vibe there and there's also pop. And of course, you can hear the traces of jazz there. So how did that happen? How did you become sort of genre fluid? Well, thanks for bringing up the album with Vanessa. It's one of my favourite projects to date. And I think the reason for that is it's kind of a full circle moment for me because it represents all the music that I listened to growing up. Except that now I'm a bit more mature and I know how to dissect things a little bit more and I know how to channel it in my own way. I listened to that stuff growing up and then I studied a lot of jazz. I went to school for it and spent a lot of time on that craft, but it's funny how we just return to what we originally loved in the end with all those other elements that you pick up along the way mixed in there. So that's the short version of my journey. Basically, starting with what I heard on radio and studying all this technique and absorbing all this information and then trying to become a child again – if that makes any sense? Totally. I think the operative word for music is "play", so I think we've got to play always. We can't take the play out of that. And I'm trying to – more and more in my interactions with other musicians and working with songwriters and all that – I just try to throw everything, all sorts of preconceived notions upon music out the window as much as I can, because then there's room for discovery. For sure. I do believe that the whole process for me, at least how it works, is that I will learn when I'm not creating as much as I can and I will educate myself. I'll be learning a lot of things. I'll be reading stuff, trying new techniques and stuff. But when it comes to the process of creation, I try to throw all that out of the window and let the subconscious do its job. Not be conscious about things. And I think that's one way things work for me. I also want to talk about the most important thing that we're here to talk about, which is the Singapore sound. And the three of us have experimented – in our own ways our own versions of it, I believe. Let's start with Chenwei. To make the Singapore sound effective, the starting point is fusion. Some sort of fusion has to happen there, right? What is your view on fusion, and how do you contextualize fusion, which is such a broad concept? It can be anything to the Singapore sound. I think fusion is particularly important for Singapore because we don't have a traditional musical style. And for a traditional musical style to form in a place, it would need to have a period of relative isolation. So, a style would comprise certain elements of influence, but also to the exclusion of other elements of influence. Singapore was cosmopolitan from the very beginning, and so, there wasn't a natural style that developed. And so, my approach to this question of Singapore sound has a lot to do with fusion because I would try to pinpoint this geographical location through the fusion of Chinese, Malay and Indian musical elements. So, if I compose a piece that is entirely Chinese in style or entirely Indian style, then it could also be from China or from India. But, if you have a piece that is a mix of Chinese and Malay musical elements, then that would be very rare in China and that would justify more strongly as something coming from Singapore. So, for fusion, I would say – in Singapore,"fusion" is a rather cliché term that is often used superficially to suggest racial harmony and multiculturalism. Let's first look at what I don't consider to be fusion. Many people conflate the ethnicity of the instrument with the music itself. I would like to say that the instrument is not the music. So, if I play Paganini on the Erhu, it's not Chinese music and it's not fusion, it is just simply Western music. Or if a Chinese, Malay and Indian musician play a pop song together, it's not fusion – it's just pop. Swapping out the Violin for an Erhu doesn't make the musical content any more Chinese. I once did a workshop for arrangement for Chinese instruments and I was explaining all the techniques of the Pipa. And then one attendee said,"Hold on, I think we can skip a bit of this.""Actually, in our line of work, we just need to put a Pipa player on stage and write something playable for it.""And even if you wrote something very idiomatic, our target audience wouldn't appreciate it." In Singapore, I think unfortunately, sometimes we tend to keep fusion to a rather tokenistic level, like we just invite the musicians, and then that's it. But then, I think we shouldn't just stop there. We should explore further, and it's great that we are able to gather musicians from different cultures together. And having this very possibility, we can learn from each other to elevate our musical content and learn from each other's cultures. Chenwei, you made a great point there and it kind of resonates with me. It cannot be tokenistic. It must come from the heart because intention is so important in the creation of any art. It all starts with intention. What do you intend to do? And if the intention is just to check the boxes of CMIO, then it's a very wrong(Chinese - Malay - Indian - Others) starting place if you ask me. Of course, the idea of representation is very noble, for sure – that everyone needs to be equally represented. But how we approach that and what's the intention to do it, I feel it should always come from a place of curiosity and genuine curiosity and understanding. I want to know more about you. I want to include this music into my piece. I want to make something more wholesome. That should be the place not just,"Okay, I've got (an) assignment. I need to do it." It shouldn't be about the assignment. It should be about what the artist is feeling at that point. And, Kerong, have you met these junctures before where you have the responsibility of doing some level of fusion in the music that you do? And you know, you're supposed to approach it right now? And what is your approach to ensure that there is authenticity? I consider myself to be quite – I rely heavily on my instincts. So, process-wise, if I'm given something that requires me to channel something or apply something that I'm not familiar with, I will go through a period of research – but not really in an academic way. I would just listen to a lot of that particular music that I need to know about, but I don't try to codify it or anything like that. I just try to get the sound in my ear. And then, from there, hopefully – with the limited time that I have – when I start to create, I try to look for common ground between what I know and what I'm not so familiar with. And I trust that my sensitivity would tell me when something is working and when something is just there for the sake of being there. And I think that comes with experience, no matter what style of music you play. You have this ear for what you know would work and what is sincere and what is not – what wouldn't be a good fit. I think we know instinctively when we hear it. And of course, there are times where we have to do trade-offs mostly because the client is chasing us. We're on a deadline. So, at that point, because fusion is such a... it's a huge task, you know, to create something like that. Of course, you can do it. There's many ways to do it. But as you said, we artists, we are more sensitive, you know, to a lot of things. And when we apply our sensitivity with time, something beautiful can come out of it. And what we're talking here – What we're talking about when we talk about, you know, things like fusion and being sensitive, you know, to incorporating instruments of other cultures into our music that we're creating. We are nurturing something. Because in Singapore, as Chenwei rightfully pointed out, there is no nature. Which means – what I mean by that is we don't naturally have a Singapore sound. So now, we're thinking of nurturing a Singapore sound. If it's not nature, then it's got to be nurture. So, when it comes to the approach of nurturing a Singapore sound, we all would agree that it cannot be tokenistic. It also cannot be a superficial exercise. It needs to come from your heart, it needs to be intuitive and things like that. When you are approaching – let's say you're given an assignment to – then there is like Indian instrument, and there are Malay instruments and things like that. I always feel like if you want to do a fusion, there needs to be something which is the genre that binds everything together. Like you could do rock and you can bring in an opera singer to sing, but there's still that whole thing that's the foundation. And if I'm doing hip-hop, I'm doing rap music, it's very easy to fuse elements into it. But, when it comes to soundtrack context – for me, you know, because I'm a film composer as well – and for you, you know, you're doing jazz, you're doing pop, you know, and other related genres too, and Chenwei doing classical. The core genre becomes something. We already fix on something, right? Most often, you know, we will have the core genre and then we start fusing things. Is that a problem – that particular approach that we may take where we fix a particular genre to be the main genre and then we're incorporating instruments into that? Kerong, I'll start with you. In my case, for example, if we have a foundation of jazz, there's a lot of room. So that's the advantage. And I think, because of the openness of that foundation, in my particular case, I don't really see a problem with it. I mean, that's just from my perspective. I think if there's that foundation, it's okay to have that as long as we still maintain that sensitivity. And also, to the best of our abilities, try to understand what we are trying to build on that foundation and then listen back – and if it makes you feel something and it it feels real to you, then I think we can go with it. Yeah, because if it feels real to you, there are going to be a few people out there who are going to connect to that too. And on the other side of it, I think if something is applied just for its own sake, that intention comes through in the music. It would be obvious to some, if not all. So that's the pitfall. Chenwei, we have had initial discussions and you really opened my mind on something where you categorize fusion – the various types of fusion. Could you talk about that? Yeah, okay. I identify from the perspective of a composer – I identify four types of fusion in musical content. Firstly, it's harmonic fusion. That is using Western harmonies to accompany music that traditionally didn't have it, which is quite the most predominant form of fusion. For example, we have a Chinese tune and then we put Western harmony below it. The second type is sequential fusion. That is presenting elements from different musical styles one after the other. Let's say I have one section that sounds Chinese and another section that sounds Malay. The third is contrapuntal fusion, which is presenting elements from different musical styles simultaneously in counterpoint. For example, let's say I have a melody – a Chinese melody and an Indian style counter-melody. This is a bit harder to do, because it requires the two or more melodic elements to harmonize. The fourth type is hybrid fusion. This is like giving birth to a hybrid musical style, like a child born to parents of different ethnicities. In this case, the resultant musical style has features of all the influences that went into it, but the influences cannot be isolated. I'll give an example of hybrid fusion. I composed a quintet for Chinese instruments titled "Vanda Miss Joaquim". That, as we know, is our national flower, and that is a hybrid flower, by the way. So, I'm using the hybridity of this flower as an analogy for musical hybridity. One of the key features is that this piece is based on a raga that I invented. As we know, ragas can have a different ascending and descending scale. Let's say we have Rāg Pīlū.(It is also common for Rāg Pīlū to have ♭7 and ♮6 in the descent) The third scale degree is natural on the way up and flat on the way down.
If I sing it in normal Western solfège:
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So, we have two flat notes on the way down. This is one of the inspirations for me. Then I just thought, what if I have an ascending scale that comes from the Malay Archipelago and a descending scale that is Chinese? So I used the <i>pelog</i> scale as the ascending, and the descending scale is the Chinese <i>yu diao </i>(<i>yu</i> mode). And besides the scale, the raga also includes characteristic ornamentation or slides or stylistic features. I also put that in part of my design. For example, I've got a slide.
Before that, I’ll mention one more thing:
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I also incorporated some Asli ornaments from Malay Asli dance music. So, that kind of turn-like ornament. My melody is something like… so, that was an Asli ornament. In this way, I incorporated Indian musical elements, Malay – like Nusantara elements and Chinese elements. And these are all integrated into a framework. As in, you can't take out any of the – isolate any of the elements – unlike, let's say, contrapuntal fusion. If you have one Chinese melody and an Indian counter-melody, then you can separate the two of them – or like harmonic fusion, you can take away the chords and you get back the original tune. This is my approach to hybrid fusion. Right. And your approach is... you resort to hybrid fusion more than the others, and the others are mere devices even if you use them, but the approach would be hybrid fusion? I would like to say that none of them is superior – necessarily superior to the other, but just that we have these different choices available. Let's say in some pieces, I might use one type of fusion and other pieces might use another type of fusion depending on what fits best for the music. But I would say, like, Contrapuntal fusion and hybrid fusion have been less explored by others. As I said, the most common is harmonic fusion because we already have a very well-developed framework of Western harmony and jazz harmony. Basically anything that is sort of close to our tempered scale, we can apply harmony to it. And then, we just harmonize it according to the rules of classical harmony or jazz harmony. And sequential fusion is also relatively easy. Let's say we have a medley of a Chinese folk song and a Malay folk song. But contrapuntal fusion and hybrid fusion require a bit more sophistication of thought and have also been less explored. And even something as simple as sequential fusion – when we think about it, it could be used to say something very complex too. It could be presented in a complex manner if the sequence is planned out in a way where it's supposed to be a question and an answer. And maybe there could be musical events that happen in the first sequence that is being sort of alluded to in the second sequence. And to the normal person, they may not find all these things, but the musician who's creating the sequential fusion could infuse these elements and it could become complex. So, I do believe that – in what you said that it need not be necessary that one particular form of fusion is more superior compared to the other. It all depends on the artist who's handling that type of fusion too. And this approach is very fascinating for me, to be very honest, because I'm more like Kerong. You know, I go with my intuition. I listen to the instrument and I see what it's speaking to me and then I kind of put it together. But I think I want to try this at some point because it sounds crazy actually. Yeah, it sounds crazy. I'd like to give it a shot, you know. And you had to learn, like Indian classical music. I'm pretty sure, you know, before you started working on this project. Still learning. Still learning. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And I think that's beautiful because when we start understanding each other's traditions and cultures, I think it really changes something in us. And we Singaporeans, we are already a hybrid of sorts, right? We are merlions in a sense, you know, we're all mixed with something in some way. It could be our taste in music, films, culture, literature, even – you know – our genes, our genetics. We could be mixed in many, many ways and our personalities too. And when we can find time to actually incorporate that into our art, I think it could create fascinating results. like what, you know, and I checked out the works that you did. I think it was kind of insane, especially the ones where, you know, include the<i>korvai </i>into your score, and then there's like Western classical, Chinese classical, and there's a <i>korvai </i>happening. So that's like, pretty sick. And I feel like, those kind of things can only happen here in Singapore, you know. Those kind of things like – rather than can only happen here in Singapore. These are one of the very few places in the world where something like that could happen because it just naturally allows for that. You see, I always draw this parallel, like we Singaporeans, you know, artists – unlike big countries like China and India, we're not separated by the hills and the regions and stuff like that. You know, there's not like Northeast people got this music and the people in the South got this music and they can't really meet because they're geographically limited, so they don't really come together. We come together every single day, you know, like our neighbours, everyone, you know, we see everyone. And there's once... I read your article and where you said that you were walking, you know, at a place and there was a wedding happening and there was a Malay Ensemble playing – percussion ensemble playing. That inspired you to create a piece. These things could happen to us every single day, and it's about how receptive we are to incorporate that into our music and try something. But sometimes I also feel, are there incentives to do it? Like, if you're interested, yes. But if, let's say – are there enough incentives for us to embark on such projects where we actually want to fuse elements from other cultures and other races and explore the instruments? Because I don't think – Kerong correct me if I'm wrong – I don't think just by incorporating like, multiracial instruments, I don't think there is necessarily an audience for it outside of NDP and Chingay and all that.(National Day Parade) So, what are the challenges in that area? Like, it's not something that I wake up, I think, okay, today I'm going to do this. We rather think about our home genres, how we're going to create something in that. So what are the challenges you see in kind of pushing the envelope in that area, including being more genre fluid, including the instruments of other races and cultures into our music? When we ask Singaporeans, like most lay Singaporeans, what they think of as Singaporean music, they will probably mention the National Day songs or some Malay language songs or Xinyao (新谣), which is Chinese pop songs that started in the 70s. So, these songs, mostly – their association with Singapore is by the lyrics, right? So, if you take away the lyrics, then there might not be many identifiable features of the music being Singaporean, as you pointed out. It might be – if you put it out in an international scene, then it might also be thought of as very similar to other international productions. And I think that is also not necessarily a bad thing because they arose out of our natural, social circumstances and also form an important part of our culture. And so, the recognition actually depends predominantly on publicity through mass media. And that's why some songs that are promoted at national levels get a greater form of recognition. And this is also how <i>Munnaeru Vaalibaa</i> became the song that is most strongly associated with the Singaporean Indian community, even though it doesn't have much features of traditional Indian music. It has practically become like, a song for non-Indian Singaporeans to fulfil their multiracial needs. To fulfil their multiracial needs. I love that, OK! So yeah, I'm glad that <i>Singai Naadu</i> has been gaining increased recognition. I think it's a positive development because <i>Singai Naadu</i> has identifiable features of Carnatic music and traditional Indian music. We all would love to find more opportunities to cross-collaborate, but at the same time, we also have the responsibility to stay authentic to the genre that we have been producing over a long time, what we are known for, you know. So that's also important. And then how do you preserve the authenticity of the genre that you're producing in when you're doing fusion? So, I guess we're talking about that foundational genre – going back to where we were at the point we made. I think you also mentioned in an interview,"I found it useful to always think of the personalities more than a genre in the abstract. So it doesn't get reduced to some generic pattern." So, I guess in terms of the personality, the people playing the music, if I know who they are in advance, I can write for them. And that usually, if I write with them in mind, the result is always better. And I don't know if they can feel it, but if I write for somebody, I want them to be very comfortable playing it. Like after they learn the music, they should feel like it's for them. I love that, yeah. So that's one of the – I guess, one of my strategies, regardless of what genre. I think that strategy is applicable to what we're talking about, too. But there's a responsibility, which is you have to know people now. Well, exactly. And I think I probably learned that from Duke Ellington. He talks about that a lot. He keeps the people in his ensemble in mind. The humans, you know. And that's, you know, as composers, I think we're also selling our work to the people playing it because I don't want people to feel like, oh, this is such a drag, I don't want to play this music. You know, so I take that into consideration when I write. And I think just having that in mind combined with our sensitivities and, you know, the practical task of making sure that the rehearsal goes smoothly and everyone has a good time. And there's enough room, there's stuff on the page, but there's enough room for people to express themselves within the constraints of the composition – usually results in something that would have a feeling. That's all I'm going for. Chenwei. Yeah, I can use my arrangement of<i>Singai Naadu</i> as an example. So actually, I didn't try to "sinicize" the song. I listened to the original and the cover version and tried to replicate the same feel as in your MV's (Music Video). So, one advantage that Chinese instruments have in playing the music of other cultures is the sensitivity to stylistic nuances. In Western music, basically, we all have discrete pitches. Generally, there is rarely music that involves slides or other kinds of – They go microtonal and all that. Yeah, as part of the – as the main focus of the music. So, when Western instruments play music from Asian cultures, they tend to round off everything to the nearest discrete note. Yeah. And then, then basically they just wipe off all the stylistic nuances. But the whole Western music is geared towards harmony. And because – for the sake of harmony, we need everything to be – the pitches to be very precise. But most Asian musical cultures did not develop around harmony. Instead, they developed around sophistication in melodic nuances. And so, instead of looking at the precise pitches, we are looking at pitches that involve inflections, which most obviously will be in terms of pitch, but there can also be other kinds of inflections. There's a Chinese professor called Shen Qia (沈洽) who brought up this concept of<i>yinqiang</i> (音腔), which I will translate as "inflected notes". That means, the whole understanding of "a note" is quite different in Asian cultures versus in the West. In the West, when we say "a note", we usually assume that it's a single pitch. If you do something like ♫, then in Western music, they will say, okay, there are three components. You have a Mi, you have a Sol, and you have a slide in between. But in Chinese music or Indian music, that slide actually constitutes part of one note. Let's say, even you look at YouTube tutorials of demonstrations of Indian Ragas. That Re contains a slide from Ga – Yup, it's still seen as – But the singer considers it as one note, and in the solfège, she also sings it as one note. So, this means that the whole understanding of what a note is, is quite different in the West versus in the East, which now gets a little bit diluted because Chinese instrumentalists also use cipher notation or staff notation, which ends up like, transcribing all of them, like, in a very Western-oriented kind of philosophy. Okay. But the whole point is that this is something that I feel that the Chinese instruments have an advantage over symphony orchestra instruments. So in <i>Singai Naadu</i>, you have quite – when I listened to your singing voice, I actually transcribed quite a lot of the slides. Singai Naadu, enthan veedu(Singapore my country, my home) So, I drew the arrows, like exactly where the players are supposed to slide. And the starting solo, also in the cover version. So, I drew all the arrows at the parts where the players are supposed to slide, and the Dizi player basically – any experienced Dizi player, when they see all these, they’ll say, okay, I can sort of, get what you're trying to say. And then, maybe they just go and listen to the MV once and then say, okay, so that's the feel of it and they can replicate it quite closely, something quite close to the original, and that is a sensitivity towards the melodic nuances. Because even if they are not trained in Indian music, like in the performance of Chinese music, they come across this kind of slides very frequently. And then say, okay, now we have to do the slides, but it's just on different notes and in a slightly different flavour, but you know, they can learn it very quickly. Right. But, and there's also – I realized that there is a natural advantage in preserving authenticity when you're writing for something like that, because Chinese classical music already allows that, because these systems are already in place. So it's kind of easier to preserve the, the authenticity, as opposed to, you know, if someone is strictly doing Western composition, because these systems are not in place. Yeah. So I think that's quite interesting. And you know, when we talk about these things, right, all these culminate to one thing, which is, is there a Singapore sound? You know, will all these things help us get closer to the Singapore sound? But Chenwei, you once told me that if we have to sit down and talk about it, then probably there's no Singapore sound. Yeah. The whole fact that we are talking about it right now means that there still isn't – or at least the idea is still not very clear. And I did not create this podcast because I want to achieve the Singapore sound. That's not my thing. I just want to talk first. I just want to know. I want to bring awareness. I want to learn. I want to share. And hopefully, when we all – because it's not every day we get to come together and talk about this, right? This is a topic, even if we are meeting just for coffee, I don't think we're going to talk about this first. We're going to talk about other things. So that's what I'm talking about when I say nurture. Like, you know, we have to create these opportunities to kind of talk. And tomorrow, probably there'll be more opportunities for us to come together and not talk, but create with our instruments and, you know, with our voices, with our lyrics and things like that. You did mention that "the search for the Singapore sound is a challenging quest. We're all working hard towards it. However, the real reward often comes from the process of searching rather than whether we arrive at a definite answer." To be very honest, I don't think I'm working hard at it. It's there in my psyche. I'm interested in the subject. I don't gain any immediate rewards by doing it, but I like it because, you know, I have love for the country that I'm born in and my people and I want to find ways to express it in my music too, apart from doing other things that I love to do. But this whole thing of "it's the process" rather than a definite answer – that struck a chord with me. And I want to ask Kerong, this particular process – do you think it's rewarding for you whenever you get an opportunity? Or is that a burden? I would say in the beginning it's a challenge, but in the process, you know, when you find solutions to – you're trying to make this blend better or you're trying to figure out how to present this melody with this accompaniment and it's something you don't completely understand. And then you keep chipping away at it, then one day you find the answer – I mean, that's the best thing because then, oh, you have one more bit of vocabulary that you can rely on for the next thing and it builds. And maybe on a larger scale, with everyone doing that, at the same time, we all are forming some sort of vocabulary of our own. For sure. But when you find those solutions, that’s to me, the best part of the composing process. That "Ah!" moment. Yeah, "That's the one!" But at first you don't know what's happening because you're just trying to figure things out in the dark. But I like that process of not knowing because that means there's potential. For me, the process has been personally very beneficial. I would say more as a film composer because for film composition, you know, especially in India, when you're working in the film industry, it's not so much so – it doesn't lean on Western classical to create the film score. It leans more on world music, rather – the opposite. If you listen to the<i>Slumdog Millionaire</i> score, it's a Grammy and Oscar-winning score, right? When you listen to it, you realize that, oh, yeah, it is – there are a lot of world music elements in that score and that's how the whole Indian film industry, the music industry operates. It leans to world music. The perspective is world music, but there are also Western classical, EDM, all these things coming in to produce the film score. And by being born in Singapore, for some reason, I feel like I have an advantage because I have the knowledge and access and awareness of all the various instruments. If not, if I was maybe born in India, I might only think of Indian instruments and Western instruments. I would think of it like that. And now, you know, the Pipa and the Zhongruan, it's not exotic for me. I can just weave it in and make it very seamless, you know, without making it seem like, you know, I'm doing something different. In fact, some of my scores have got the Erhu, you know, my film scores, but no one has said that, you know, "that Chinese music part, I like it." No one has said that."I love that theme." That's it. Boom. Then I know that I've done something. Yeah, I know that there is some success there. Of course, I wish there were more opportunities to expand this and do more of it. That's why we're talking about creating more environment, right? Creating environments which support such collaborations. And the process at the end of the day, it's rewarding because we also get to learn and we musicians love to learn. Because it's a lifelong process for us. We can never say that we know everything. It's always a drop in an ocean for us, you know, and we learn something new. And Chenwei, the process is certainly (more) rewarding than getting a definite answer. But as what Kerong said, of course, it's good to have that "ah" moment in like,"Oh man! That's the sweet spot!" when you arrive there. Have you felt any of your compositions have fulfilled that requirement of – you have arrived at a point where it's a very important juncture in your exploration of the Singapore sound? This is that piece that actually kind of completes that journey or at least it's a very important milestone in your journey? The catch is that every answer you get leads to more questions. Like life itself. Literally, like the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know. And with regards to traditional music, especially – usually those coming from a Western musical background would think that they are simple because they listen to it from a Western perspective. That means they listen to things like, oh, OK, this music doesn't have harmony and then it's slow, you know, and then it has not many – not a wide range of pitches, then how hard can it be? But the sophistication lies in elements that one might have not noticed, like, for example, the melodic nuances. Or let's say, I give an example. I interacted with musicians from Sarawak. In one kind of singing, it’s like when the performer sings something and then a member of audience – if he would like to praise the performance, he will sing a COMPLEMENTARY phrase to the song to COMPLIMENT the singer. So a complementary phrase to compliment. So there's a collaboration happening between the artist and the audience. And let's think about it in Western music. Even for a trained Western Musician, I think it's very hard to do that. Imagine somebody is singing and OK, now you have to sing – like, improvise a phrase that harmonizes with that song. Everybody would probably just freeze. So that means if we didn't know there was such a thing, you just listen to a group of them singing and you're just thinking, oh, somebody started singing, and another guy started singing along with it, and you don't know what's the whole concept behind that thing. You'd think it's a very simple thing –"oh this is so simple. I can also do it." But you really try to do it, then you realize, OK, there's absolutely – there's a lot of things that are not obvious upon your first listening. And so, likewise, the same with traditional Chinese music genres. Like before, I learned Nanyin. Nanyin is an ancient genre of Chinese music that is practiced by the Hokkien communities. And then I thought, OK, so this is – even though I've been in the Chinese orchestra for like 20 years, then I just felt like, oh, this music is so slow, and it's all almost playing in unison, how difficult can it be? Until I went to Siong Leng to have lessons,(Siong Leng Musical Association, Singapore) then I realized, oh no, this is absolutely not simple. So all this – every genre of music has got gems of wisdom that we wouldn't have been aware of if we just listen to it superficially. Like once we start trying to do it or trying to incorporate it into our compositions, then we realize how deep the rabbit hole is. And that makes me conclude that when we cross-collaborate and we get to learn so much and we get to do a journey which is inward, you know, when we learn about instruments, more instruments and other Singaporean musical cultures. So I don't think the benefit is just national and social. When we collaborate, I think for the individual, it's also artistic, creative and spiritual because it sets you on a journey and it makes you ask more questions. And always, more questions leads to more answers if you are journeying on the right path. So I do think that there's a lot to benefit when we take this road and we kind of become more curious about each other's musical cultures until it becomes ours. Like, I would say that when I'm writing the film score – for me, the process is such where, as Hans Zimmer said, if somebody tells you there's a rule, break it. That's the only thing that makes things move forward. I'm a huge fan of that. So first, I learn everything as much as I can, but then later, I'm trying to break as many rules as I can. When I incorporate a particular instrument that's not from my culture, I'm trying to make the instrument behave differently than how it would behave in that particular setting, in that cultural setting. So these things make it more exciting, make the process more exciting. And my thing is always like, when all these instrumentalists are available, then why not try to collaborate more? Why not? Because it's not difficult. If I'm in Chennai (India) composing for a film, I can't get someone who plays the Kompang in. It's not going to be possible, physically possible. I can, but I maybe need to fly or there's so many hindrances for that to happen. But if I'm in Singapore, it's just a call away and I can get someone in. And it's so easy to set up that collaboration, but I don't think about it all the time. But I wish I did more. And I hope that after this project, I'm also programming my subconscious right now as the host. I think it's going to show in the music that I'm about to create from now on, where there's going to be more multicultural influences, once this show is over, I think, because I'm going to be thinking more about it. I'm going to go to bed thinking about it. I'm going to wake up thinking about it. Yeah. So I think that's going to kind of spill away into my music as I create stuff. I love the fact that – Kerong, the main takeaway, for me, from you is that it has to be very individualistic. It has to be very personal and you have to be intuitive about the process. And it can never be something that is seen as an assignment. It should be something that you can resonate with. And if it doesn't resonate with, you shouldn't even do it probably. Yeah. And I like that about it. I like that honesty, because that honesty is so important for artists, because the worst thing you want to do is get lost in all the noise and then you don't even know who you are at the end of it. So... thanks for that sharing. And Chenwei, I love the fact that you learn – you go out of your way to learn about other cultures and allow that to influence your writing. And I think both of you have taught me something very interesting today. Although it feels like it's complete opposites in that sense – both the key takeaways, but I believe that when it's blended together, it can result in a very interesting outcome for the artist. It’s pursuing some sort of artistic excellence.
Chenwei's approach is:
1:46:07
go out there, learn everything, put yourself out there. And sometimes, even if it's not convenient, make efforts to learn things and then let it transpire into your writing and incorporate that and explore yourself and the whole idea of the Singapore sound by learning – through learning and experimenting.
And Kerong's process is:
1:46:31
keep it organic, let it happen when it happens. And it will happen, you know, and stay true to your craft and stay close to yourself as an artist in this journey. Just do your thing, pretty much. Do your thing, yeah, but be open to learning, you know, let it happen when it happens. And I think I'm a hybrid of the both of you. I'm the Merlion. I do both, which is – I have times where I forcibly learn, like for an example, I never listened to Bob Dylan before in my life. Okay, because I mean, I'm not from that era and nobody introduced that music to me, his music to me. So what I did is – but I wanted to learn because I keep seeing Bob Dylan. I write poetry also, apart from writing songs. And I wanted to know because this person is also known as a poet and a songwriter. So what I did is, I went on a journey. I've got his biography. So I refused to listen to his music, but I started reading his biography. So I finished the whole book, now I need to know what music does this guy make? I want to know. And then I go and listen to the music, and everything was so different for me. Because I'm born in 1985. If I had heard Bob Dylan's <i>The Times They Are A-Changin'</i> straight up. I'd be like, okay, what's that about? But now I understand – understood context, because I'm made aware of the context right now. And when I listen to it, I can hear every... A lot of details, you know, and a lot of things, the psychology of the writer and the people who are listening to that music. So, I do have moments in my life where I force learn – I force myself to learn things like what Chenwei does, where he goes out of the way to learn things. But for the most part, I'm also like Kerong. In the studio, I employ a technique where it's a conversation. I allow people to come in, do their thing, I leave it very open, I enjoy it – that may not be your technique in the studio, but rather talking about the approach of making things organic, keeping things organic. And I also employ that in my musical journey, where for the most part, I have these spurts of, you know, forced learning. But at the same time, I'm also all about authenticity, like I want to journey, walk the path and not rush things and allow things to happen, give room and space for things to happen organically. So I think today's podcast also taught me that the application of both methods and approaches were very beneficial for the artists who might want to take the journey to explore the Singapore sound or sounds. So thank you very much for your wisdom and sharing. Really appreciate it.– Thank you. Romba Nandri!(Thank you very much)
Hey, this is Shabir Sulthan. In this episode of Project Zero, we explore Singaporean roots, fusion and whether there truly exists a Singapore sound. First up, we have Wang Chenwei, Composer-in-residence of the Singapore Chinese Orchestra and Head of Research and Education at the Teng Company. Wang Chenwei holds a Magister Artium with distinction from the University of Music and Performing Arts, Vienna. He's known for his numerous compositions, including<i>The Sisters Islands</i>, which won the Singapore Composer Award in 2006. His works have been performed internationally and he's received accolades such as the Young Artist Award from the National Arts Council Singapore. Next, we have Chok Kerong, a composer, producer and keyboardist recognized for his versatility. Kerong's arrangements and compositions have been performed by various renowned artists and ensembles, including his own chamber ensemble, Eleven. He's also known for his work in jazz, performing at prestigious events like the Tokyo Jazz Festival. This is Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore sound. PROJECT ZERO All right, so in this episode, we have with us Chenwei and Kerong. Thank you very much for joining me.– Thanks for having us.– Thank you, thank you. So this is Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore sound. I know Chenwei is going to have a bone to pick with the title itself because it says "Singapore sound", and Chenwei is a proponent of saying there must be "Singapore sounds", which is a cool thing, which is a very salient point, and I do agree with that. And that's what we're going to talk about today. And to start off, maybe Chenwei, you can tell us, you know, what's the scope of work that you do in the scene as a classical composer? And at the same time, what is your relationship with the Singapore sound, or sounds? Yeah, okay. Vanakkam Thiru Shabir(Greetings, Mr Shabir) Vanakkam Vanakkam. Neengal Sowkkiyamaa? (How are you?) Nala Irukkaen, Neenga Eppadi Irukkeenga?(I'm good, how are you?) Okay, so I'm the Composer-in-residence of Singapore Chinese Orchestra. I also teach composition modules at NIE(National Institute of Education) and orchestration for Chinese Music at NAFA (Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts). Most of my work has – in the recent years – has been for Chinese Orchestra even though my training was – my formal training in music was entirely Western. Yeah, so, I went to University in Vienna to study composition. It is actually just out of circumstances that I ended up so deeply engaged within the Chinese Orchestra community, and that was because when I was in secondary school, I was posted to the Chinese Orchestra. So basically, we had to choose the Co-Curricular Activities, fill in a form. And then we went to look at all the different music CCA's, and then I saw the military band, and they had to do push-ups! Then I thought, okay, I don't want to do push-ups! So what can I choose? Okay, so guitar ensemble and Chinese orchestra they surely don't need to do push-ups. So I filled in that, and I got posted to the Chinese orchestra. Actually I was just wondering, if the admin clerk had put my name under another CCA, my life would have been very different now. And I think it's quite similar. I can resonate with that because all I wanted to do was just sing songs, but I got inducted into the Tamil Language Learning and Promotion Committee, and that suddenly made me very interested in the language and the culture, and that led me to actually ask these questions. What is the meaning of being a Tamil person, an Indian, a Singaporean, all these things. So, I think all my existential questions started from there. Because before that I was just like, okay, I'm just doing music. I'm singing, you know, that kind of thing. And I think Kerong has got a very similar experience like that, where you came in and then you were predominantly – like you wanted to, as a child – you listened to a lot of pop. And you were experiencing that, and then jazz happened. And of course you're doing quite a number of things. The album with Vanessa was really cool because it's kind of genre fluid, right? It's going through funk, There is a bit of R&B vibe there and there's also pop. And of course, you can hear the traces of jazz there. So how did that happen? How did you become sort of genre fluid? Well, thanks for bringing up the album with Vanessa. It's one of my favourite projects to date. And I think the reason for that is it's kind of a full circle moment for me because it represents all the music that I listened to growing up. Except that now I'm a bit more mature and I know how to dissect things a little bit more and I know how to channel it in my own way. I listened to that stuff growing up and then I studied a lot of jazz. I went to school for it and spent a lot of time on that craft, but it's funny how we just return to what we originally loved in the end with all those other elements that you pick up along the way mixed in there. So that's the short version of my journey. Basically, starting with what I heard on radio and studying all this technique and absorbing all this information and then trying to become a child again – if that makes any sense? Totally. I think the operative word for music is "play", so I think we've got to play always. We can't take the play out of that. And I'm trying to – more and more in my interactions with other musicians and working with songwriters and all that – I just try to throw everything, all sorts of preconceived notions upon music out the window as much as I can, because then there's room for discovery. For sure. I do believe that the whole process for me, at least how it works, is that I will learn when I'm not creating as much as I can and I will educate myself. I'll be learning a lot of things. I'll be reading stuff, trying new techniques and stuff. But when it comes to the process of creation, I try to throw all that out of the window and let the subconscious do its job. Not be conscious about things. And I think that's one way things work for me. I also want to talk about the most important thing that we're here to talk about, which is the Singapore sound. And the three of us have experimented – in our own ways our own versions of it, I believe. Let's start with Chenwei. To make the Singapore sound effective, the starting point is fusion. Some sort of fusion has to happen there, right? What is your view on fusion, and how do you contextualize fusion, which is such a broad concept? It can be anything to the Singapore sound. I think fusion is particularly important for Singapore because we don't have a traditional musical style. And for a traditional musical style to form in a place, it would need to have a period of relative isolation. So, a style would comprise certain elements of influence, but also to the exclusion of other elements of influence. Singapore was cosmopolitan from the very beginning, and so, there wasn't a natural style that developed. And so, my approach to this question of Singapore sound has a lot to do with fusion because I would try to pinpoint this geographical location through the fusion of Chinese, Malay and Indian musical elements. So, if I compose a piece that is entirely Chinese in style or entirely Indian style, then it could also be from China or from India. But, if you have a piece that is a mix of Chinese and Malay musical elements, then that would be very rare in China and that would justify more strongly as something coming from Singapore. So, for fusion, I would say – in Singapore,"fusion" is a rather cliché term that is often used superficially to suggest racial harmony and multiculturalism. Let's first look at what I don't consider to be fusion. Many people conflate the ethnicity of the instrument with the music itself. I would like to say that the instrument is not the music. So, if I play Paganini on the Erhu, it's not Chinese music and it's not fusion, it is just simply Western music. Or if a Chinese, Malay and Indian musician play a pop song together, it's not fusion – it's just pop. Swapping out the Violin for an Erhu doesn't make the musical content any more Chinese. I once did a workshop for arrangement for Chinese instruments and I was explaining all the techniques of the Pipa. And then one attendee said,"Hold on, I think we can skip a bit of this.""Actually, in our line of work, we just need to put a Pipa player on stage and write something playable for it.""And even if you wrote something very idiomatic, our target audience wouldn't appreciate it." In Singapore, I think unfortunately, sometimes we tend to keep fusion to a rather tokenistic level, like we just invite the musicians, and then that's it. But then, I think we shouldn't just stop there. We should explore further, and it's great that we are able to gather musicians from different cultures together. And having this very possibility, we can learn from each other to elevate our musical content and learn from each other's cultures. Chenwei, you made a great point there and it kind of resonates with me. It cannot be tokenistic. It must come from the heart because intention is so important in the creation of any art. It all starts with intention. What do you intend to do? And if the intention is just to check the boxes of CMIO, then it's a very wrong(Chinese - Malay - Indian - Others) starting place if you ask me. Of course, the idea of representation is very noble, for sure – that everyone needs to be equally represented. But how we approach that and what's the intention to do it, I feel it should always come from a place of curiosity and genuine curiosity and understanding. I want to know more about you. I want to include this music into my piece. I want to make something more wholesome. That should be the place not just,"Okay, I've got (an) assignment. I need to do it." It shouldn't be about the assignment. It should be about what the artist is feeling at that point. And, Kerong, have you met these junctures before where you have the responsibility of doing some level of fusion in the music that you do? And you know, you're supposed to approach it right now? And what is your approach to ensure that there is authenticity? I consider myself to be quite – I rely heavily on my instincts. So, process-wise, if I'm given something that requires me to channel something or apply something that I'm not familiar with, I will go through a period of research – but not really in an academic way. I would just listen to a lot of that particular music that I need to know about, but I don't try to codify it or anything like that. I just try to get the sound in my ear. And then, from there, hopefully – with the limited time that I have – when I start to create, I try to look for common ground between what I know and what I'm not so familiar with. And I trust that my sensitivity would tell me when something is working and when something is just there for the sake of being there. And I think that comes with experience, no matter what style of music you play. You have this ear for what you know would work and what is sincere and what is not – what wouldn't be a good fit. I think we know instinctively when we hear it. And of course, there are times where we have to do trade-offs mostly because the client is chasing us. We're on a deadline. So, at that point, because fusion is such a... it's a huge task, you know, to create something like that. Of course, you can do it. There's many ways to do it. But as you said, we artists, we are more sensitive, you know, to a lot of things. And when we apply our sensitivity with time, something beautiful can come out of it. And what we're talking here – What we're talking about when we talk about, you know, things like fusion and being sensitive, you know, to incorporating instruments of other cultures into our music that we're creating. We are nurturing something. Because in Singapore, as Chenwei rightfully pointed out, there is no nature. Which means – what I mean by that is we don't naturally have a Singapore sound. So now, we're thinking of nurturing a Singapore sound. If it's not nature, then it's got to be nurture. So, when it comes to the approach of nurturing a Singapore sound, we all would agree that it cannot be tokenistic. It also cannot be a superficial exercise. It needs to come from your heart, it needs to be intuitive and things like that. When you are approaching – let's say you're given an assignment to – then there is like Indian instrument, and there are Malay instruments and things like that. I always feel like if you want to do a fusion, there needs to be something which is the genre that binds everything together. Like you could do rock and you can bring in an opera singer to sing, but there's still that whole thing that's the foundation. And if I'm doing hip-hop, I'm doing rap music, it's very easy to fuse elements into it. But, when it comes to soundtrack context – for me, you know, because I'm a film composer as well – and for you, you know, you're doing jazz, you're doing pop, you know, and other related genres too, and Chenwei doing classical. The core genre becomes something. We already fix on something, right? Most often, you know, we will have the core genre and then we start fusing things. Is that a problem – that particular approach that we may take where we fix a particular genre to be the main genre and then we're incorporating instruments into that? Kerong, I'll start with you. In my case, for example, if we have a foundation of jazz, there's a lot of room. So that's the advantage. And I think, because of the openness of that foundation, in my particular case, I don't really see a problem with it. I mean, that's just from my perspective. I think if there's that foundation, it's okay to have that as long as we still maintain that sensitivity. And also, to the best of our abilities, try to understand what we are trying to build on that foundation and then listen back – and if it makes you feel something and it it feels real to you, then I think we can go with it. Yeah, because if it feels real to you, there are going to be a few people out there who are going to connect to that too. And on the other side of it, I think if something is applied just for its own sake, that intention comes through in the music. It would be obvious to some, if not all. So that's the pitfall. Chenwei, we have had initial discussions and you really opened my mind on something where you categorize fusion – the various types of fusion. Could you talk about that? Yeah, okay. I identify from the perspective of a composer – I identify four types of fusion in musical content. Firstly, it's harmonic fusion. That is using Western harmonies to accompany music that traditionally didn't have it, which is quite the most predominant form of fusion. For example, we have a Chinese tune and then we put Western harmony below it. The second type is sequential fusion. That is presenting elements from different musical styles one after the other. Let's say I have one section that sounds Chinese and another section that sounds Malay. The third is contrapuntal fusion, which is presenting elements from different musical styles simultaneously in counterpoint. For example, let's say I have a melody – a Chinese melody and an Indian style counter-melody. This is a bit harder to do, because it requires the two or more melodic elements to harmonize. The fourth type is hybrid fusion. This is like giving birth to a hybrid musical style, like a child born to parents of different ethnicities. In this case, the resultant musical style has features of all the influences that went into it, but the influences cannot be isolated. I'll give an example of hybrid fusion. I composed a quintet for Chinese instruments titled "Vanda Miss Joaquim". That, as we know, is our national flower, and that is a hybrid flower, by the way. So, I'm using the hybridity of this flower as an analogy for musical hybridity. One of the key features is that this piece is based on a raga that I invented. As we know, ragas can have a different ascending and descending scale. Let's say we have Rāg Pīlū.(It is also common for Rāg Pīlū to have ♭7 and ♮6 in the descent) The third scale degree is natural on the way up and flat on the way down.
If I sing it in normal Western solfège:
1:18:03
So, we have two flat notes on the way down. This is one of the inspirations for me. Then I just thought, what if I have an ascending scale that comes from the Malay Archipelago and a descending scale that is Chinese? So I used the <i>pelog</i> scale as the ascending, and the descending scale is the Chinese <i>yu diao </i>(<i>yu</i> mode). And besides the scale, the raga also includes characteristic ornamentation or slides or stylistic features. I also put that in part of my design. For example, I've got a slide.
Before that, I’ll mention one more thing:
1:19:03
I also incorporated some Asli ornaments from Malay Asli dance music. So, that kind of turn-like ornament. My melody is something like… so, that was an Asli ornament. In this way, I incorporated Indian musical elements, Malay – like Nusantara elements and Chinese elements. And these are all integrated into a framework. As in, you can't take out any of the – isolate any of the elements – unlike, let's say, contrapuntal fusion. If you have one Chinese melody and an Indian counter-melody, then you can separate the two of them – or like harmonic fusion, you can take away the chords and you get back the original tune. This is my approach to hybrid fusion. Right. And your approach is... you resort to hybrid fusion more than the others, and the others are mere devices even if you use them, but the approach would be hybrid fusion? I would like to say that none of them is superior – necessarily superior to the other, but just that we have these different choices available. Let's say in some pieces, I might use one type of fusion and other pieces might use another type of fusion depending on what fits best for the music. But I would say, like, Contrapuntal fusion and hybrid fusion have been less explored by others. As I said, the most common is harmonic fusion because we already have a very well-developed framework of Western harmony and jazz harmony. Basically anything that is sort of close to our tempered scale, we can apply harmony to it. And then, we just harmonize it according to the rules of classical harmony or jazz harmony. And sequential fusion is also relatively easy. Let's say we have a medley of a Chinese folk song and a Malay folk song. But contrapuntal fusion and hybrid fusion require a bit more sophistication of thought and have also been less explored. And even something as simple as sequential fusion – when we think about it, it could be used to say something very complex too. It could be presented in a complex manner if the sequence is planned out in a way where it's supposed to be a question and an answer. And maybe there could be musical events that happen in the first sequence that is being sort of alluded to in the second sequence. And to the normal person, they may not find all these things, but the musician who's creating the sequential fusion could infuse these elements and it could become complex. So, I do believe that – in what you said that it need not be necessary that one particular form of fusion is more superior compared to the other. It all depends on the artist who's handling that type of fusion too. And this approach is very fascinating for me, to be very honest, because I'm more like Kerong. You know, I go with my intuition. I listen to the instrument and I see what it's speaking to me and then I kind of put it together. But I think I want to try this at some point because it sounds crazy actually. Yeah, it sounds crazy. I'd like to give it a shot, you know. And you had to learn, like Indian classical music. I'm pretty sure, you know, before you started working on this project. Still learning. Still learning. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And I think that's beautiful because when we start understanding each other's traditions and cultures, I think it really changes something in us. And we Singaporeans, we are already a hybrid of sorts, right? We are merlions in a sense, you know, we're all mixed with something in some way. It could be our taste in music, films, culture, literature, even – you know – our genes, our genetics. We could be mixed in many, many ways and our personalities too. And when we can find time to actually incorporate that into our art, I think it could create fascinating results. like what, you know, and I checked out the works that you did. I think it was kind of insane, especially the ones where, you know, include the<i>korvai </i>into your score, and then there's like Western classical, Chinese classical, and there's a <i>korvai </i>happening. So that's like, pretty sick. And I feel like, those kind of things can only happen here in Singapore, you know. Those kind of things like – rather than can only happen here in Singapore. These are one of the very few places in the world where something like that could happen because it just naturally allows for that. You see, I always draw this parallel, like we Singaporeans, you know, artists – unlike big countries like China and India, we're not separated by the hills and the regions and stuff like that. You know, there's not like Northeast people got this music and the people in the South got this music and they can't really meet because they're geographically limited, so they don't really come together. We come together every single day, you know, like our neighbours, everyone, you know, we see everyone. And there's once... I read your article and where you said that you were walking, you know, at a place and there was a wedding happening and there was a Malay Ensemble playing – percussion ensemble playing. That inspired you to create a piece. These things could happen to us every single day, and it's about how receptive we are to incorporate that into our music and try something. But sometimes I also feel, are there incentives to do it? Like, if you're interested, yes. But if, let's say – are there enough incentives for us to embark on such projects where we actually want to fuse elements from other cultures and other races and explore the instruments? Because I don't think – Kerong correct me if I'm wrong – I don't think just by incorporating like, multiracial instruments, I don't think there is necessarily an audience for it outside of NDP and Chingay and all that.(National Day Parade) So, what are the challenges in that area? Like, it's not something that I wake up, I think, okay, today I'm going to do this. We rather think about our home genres, how we're going to create something in that. So what are the challenges you see in kind of pushing the envelope in that area, including being more genre fluid, including the instruments of other races and cultures into our music? When we ask Singaporeans, like most lay Singaporeans, what they think of as Singaporean music, they will probably mention the National Day songs or some Malay language songs or Xinyao (新谣), which is Chinese pop songs that started in the 70s. So, these songs, mostly – their association with Singapore is by the lyrics, right? So, if you take away the lyrics, then there might not be many identifiable features of the music being Singaporean, as you pointed out. It might be – if you put it out in an international scene, then it might also be thought of as very similar to other international productions. And I think that is also not necessarily a bad thing because they arose out of our natural, social circumstances and also form an important part of our culture. And so, the recognition actually depends predominantly on publicity through mass media. And that's why some songs that are promoted at national levels get a greater form of recognition. And this is also how <i>Munnaeru Vaalibaa</i> became the song that is most strongly associated with the Singaporean Indian community, even though it doesn't have much features of traditional Indian music. It has practically become like, a song for non-Indian Singaporeans to fulfil their multiracial needs. To fulfil their multiracial needs. I love that, OK! So yeah, I'm glad that <i>Singai Naadu</i> has been gaining increased recognition. I think it's a positive development because <i>Singai Naadu</i> has identifiable features of Carnatic music and traditional Indian music. We all would love to find more opportunities to cross-collaborate, but at the same time, we also have the responsibility to stay authentic to the genre that we have been producing over a long time, what we are known for, you know. So that's also important. And then how do you preserve the authenticity of the genre that you're producing in when you're doing fusion? So, I guess we're talking about that foundational genre – going back to where we were at the point we made. I think you also mentioned in an interview,"I found it useful to always think of the personalities more than a genre in the abstract. So it doesn't get reduced to some generic pattern." So, I guess in terms of the personality, the people playing the music, if I know who they are in advance, I can write for them. And that usually, if I write with them in mind, the result is always better. And I don't know if they can feel it, but if I write for somebody, I want them to be very comfortable playing it. Like after they learn the music, they should feel like it's for them. I love that, yeah. So that's one of the – I guess, one of my strategies, regardless of what genre. I think that strategy is applicable to what we're talking about, too. But there's a responsibility, which is you have to know people now. Well, exactly. And I think I probably learned that from Duke Ellington. He talks about that a lot. He keeps the people in his ensemble in mind. The humans, you know. And that's, you know, as composers, I think we're also selling our work to the people playing it because I don't want people to feel like, oh, this is such a drag, I don't want to play this music. You know, so I take that into consideration when I write. And I think just having that in mind combined with our sensitivities and, you know, the practical task of making sure that the rehearsal goes smoothly and everyone has a good time. And there's enough room, there's stuff on the page, but there's enough room for people to express themselves within the constraints of the composition – usually results in something that would have a feeling. That's all I'm going for. Chenwei. Yeah, I can use my arrangement of<i>Singai Naadu</i> as an example. So actually, I didn't try to "sinicize" the song. I listened to the original and the cover version and tried to replicate the same feel as in your MV's (Music Video). So, one advantage that Chinese instruments have in playing the music of other cultures is the sensitivity to stylistic nuances. In Western music, basically, we all have discrete pitches. Generally, there is rarely music that involves slides or other kinds of – They go microtonal and all that. Yeah, as part of the – as the main focus of the music. So, when Western instruments play music from Asian cultures, they tend to round off everything to the nearest discrete note. Yeah. And then, then basically they just wipe off all the stylistic nuances. But the whole Western music is geared towards harmony. And because – for the sake of harmony, we need everything to be – the pitches to be very precise. But most Asian musical cultures did not develop around harmony. Instead, they developed around sophistication in melodic nuances. And so, instead of looking at the precise pitches, we are looking at pitches that involve inflections, which most obviously will be in terms of pitch, but there can also be other kinds of inflections. There's a Chinese professor called Shen Qia (沈洽) who brought up this concept of<i>yinqiang</i> (音腔), which I will translate as "inflected notes". That means, the whole understanding of "a note" is quite different in Asian cultures versus in the West. In the West, when we say "a note", we usually assume that it's a single pitch. If you do something like ♫, then in Western music, they will say, okay, there are three components. You have a Mi, you have a Sol, and you have a slide in between. But in Chinese music or Indian music, that slide actually constitutes part of one note. Let's say, even you look at YouTube tutorials of demonstrations of Indian Ragas. That Re contains a slide from Ga – Yup, it's still seen as – But the singer considers it as one note, and in the solfège, she also sings it as one note. So, this means that the whole understanding of what a note is, is quite different in the West versus in the East, which now gets a little bit diluted because Chinese instrumentalists also use cipher notation or staff notation, which ends up like, transcribing all of them, like, in a very Western-oriented kind of philosophy. Okay. But the whole point is that this is something that I feel that the Chinese instruments have an advantage over symphony orchestra instruments. So in <i>Singai Naadu</i>, you have quite – when I listened to your singing voice, I actually transcribed quite a lot of the slides. Singai Naadu, enthan veedu(Singapore my country, my home) So, I drew the arrows, like exactly where the players are supposed to slide. And the starting solo, also in the cover version. So, I drew all the arrows at the parts where the players are supposed to slide, and the Dizi player basically – any experienced Dizi player, when they see all these, they’ll say, okay, I can sort of, get what you're trying to say. And then, maybe they just go and listen to the MV once and then say, okay, so that's the feel of it and they can replicate it quite closely, something quite close to the original, and that is a sensitivity towards the melodic nuances. Because even if they are not trained in Indian music, like in the performance of Chinese music, they come across this kind of slides very frequently. And then say, okay, now we have to do the slides, but it's just on different notes and in a slightly different flavour, but you know, they can learn it very quickly. Right. But, and there's also – I realized that there is a natural advantage in preserving authenticity when you're writing for something like that, because Chinese classical music already allows that, because these systems are already in place. So it's kind of easier to preserve the, the authenticity, as opposed to, you know, if someone is strictly doing Western composition, because these systems are not in place. Yeah. So I think that's quite interesting. And you know, when we talk about these things, right, all these culminate to one thing, which is, is there a Singapore sound? You know, will all these things help us get closer to the Singapore sound? But Chenwei, you once told me that if we have to sit down and talk about it, then probably there's no Singapore sound. Yeah. The whole fact that we are talking about it right now means that there still isn't – or at least the idea is still not very clear. And I did not create this podcast because I want to achieve the Singapore sound. That's not my thing. I just want to talk first. I just want to know. I want to bring awareness. I want to learn. I want to share. And hopefully, when we all – because it's not every day we get to come together and talk about this, right? This is a topic, even if we are meeting just for coffee, I don't think we're going to talk about this first. We're going to talk about other things. So that's what I'm talking about when I say nurture. Like, you know, we have to create these opportunities to kind of talk. And tomorrow, probably there'll be more opportunities for us to come together and not talk, but create with our instruments and, you know, with our voices, with our lyrics and things like that. You did mention that "the search for the Singapore sound is a challenging quest. We're all working hard towards it. However, the real reward often comes from the process of searching rather than whether we arrive at a definite answer." To be very honest, I don't think I'm working hard at it. It's there in my psyche. I'm interested in the subject. I don't gain any immediate rewards by doing it, but I like it because, you know, I have love for the country that I'm born in and my people and I want to find ways to express it in my music too, apart from doing other things that I love to do. But this whole thing of "it's the process" rather than a definite answer – that struck a chord with me. And I want to ask Kerong, this particular process – do you think it's rewarding for you whenever you get an opportunity? Or is that a burden? I would say in the beginning it's a challenge, but in the process, you know, when you find solutions to – you're trying to make this blend better or you're trying to figure out how to present this melody with this accompaniment and it's something you don't completely understand. And then you keep chipping away at it, then one day you find the answer – I mean, that's the best thing because then, oh, you have one more bit of vocabulary that you can rely on for the next thing and it builds. And maybe on a larger scale, with everyone doing that, at the same time, we all are forming some sort of vocabulary of our own. For sure. But when you find those solutions, that’s to me, the best part of the composing process. That "Ah!" moment. Yeah, "That's the one!" But at first you don't know what's happening because you're just trying to figure things out in the dark. But I like that process of not knowing because that means there's potential. For me, the process has been personally very beneficial. I would say more as a film composer because for film composition, you know, especially in India, when you're working in the film industry, it's not so much so – it doesn't lean on Western classical to create the film score. It leans more on world music, rather – the opposite. If you listen to the<i>Slumdog Millionaire</i> score, it's a Grammy and Oscar-winning score, right? When you listen to it, you realize that, oh, yeah, it is – there are a lot of world music elements in that score and that's how the whole Indian film industry, the music industry operates. It leans to world music. The perspective is world music, but there are also Western classical, EDM, all these things coming in to produce the film score. And by being born in Singapore, for some reason, I feel like I have an advantage because I have the knowledge and access and awareness of all the various instruments. If not, if I was maybe born in India, I might only think of Indian instruments and Western instruments. I would think of it like that. And now, you know, the Pipa and the Zhongruan, it's not exotic for me. I can just weave it in and make it very seamless, you know, without making it seem like, you know, I'm doing something different. In fact, some of my scores have got the Erhu, you know, my film scores, but no one has said that, you know, "that Chinese music part, I like it." No one has said that."I love that theme." That's it. Boom. Then I know that I've done something. Yeah, I know that there is some success there. Of course, I wish there were more opportunities to expand this and do more of it. That's why we're talking about creating more environment, right? Creating environments which support such collaborations. And the process at the end of the day, it's rewarding because we also get to learn and we musicians love to learn. Because it's a lifelong process for us. We can never say that we know everything. It's always a drop in an ocean for us, you know, and we learn something new. And Chenwei, the process is certainly (more) rewarding than getting a definite answer. But as what Kerong said, of course, it's good to have that "ah" moment in like,"Oh man! That's the sweet spot!" when you arrive there. Have you felt any of your compositions have fulfilled that requirement of – you have arrived at a point where it's a very important juncture in your exploration of the Singapore sound? This is that piece that actually kind of completes that journey or at least it's a very important milestone in your journey? The catch is that every answer you get leads to more questions. Like life itself. Literally, like the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know. And with regards to traditional music, especially – usually those coming from a Western musical background would think that they are simple because they listen to it from a Western perspective. That means they listen to things like, oh, OK, this music doesn't have harmony and then it's slow, you know, and then it has not many – not a wide range of pitches, then how hard can it be? But the sophistication lies in elements that one might have not noticed, like, for example, the melodic nuances. Or let's say, I give an example. I interacted with musicians from Sarawak. In one kind of singing, it’s like when the performer sings something and then a member of audience – if he would like to praise the performance, he will sing a COMPLEMENTARY phrase to the song to COMPLIMENT the singer. So a complementary phrase to compliment. So there's a collaboration happening between the artist and the audience. And let's think about it in Western music. Even for a trained Western Musician, I think it's very hard to do that. Imagine somebody is singing and OK, now you have to sing – like, improvise a phrase that harmonizes with that song. Everybody would probably just freeze. So that means if we didn't know there was such a thing, you just listen to a group of them singing and you're just thinking, oh, somebody started singing, and another guy started singing along with it, and you don't know what's the whole concept behind that thing. You'd think it's a very simple thing –"oh this is so simple. I can also do it." But you really try to do it, then you realize, OK, there's absolutely – there's a lot of things that are not obvious upon your first listening. And so, likewise, the same with traditional Chinese music genres. Like before, I learned Nanyin. Nanyin is an ancient genre of Chinese music that is practiced by the Hokkien communities. And then I thought, OK, so this is – even though I've been in the Chinese orchestra for like 20 years, then I just felt like, oh, this music is so slow, and it's all almost playing in unison, how difficult can it be? Until I went to Siong Leng to have lessons,(Siong Leng Musical Association, Singapore) then I realized, oh no, this is absolutely not simple. So all this – every genre of music has got gems of wisdom that we wouldn't have been aware of if we just listen to it superficially. Like once we start trying to do it or trying to incorporate it into our compositions, then we realize how deep the rabbit hole is. And that makes me conclude that when we cross-collaborate and we get to learn so much and we get to do a journey which is inward, you know, when we learn about instruments, more instruments and other Singaporean musical cultures. So I don't think the benefit is just national and social. When we collaborate, I think for the individual, it's also artistic, creative and spiritual because it sets you on a journey and it makes you ask more questions. And always, more questions leads to more answers if you are journeying on the right path. So I do think that there's a lot to benefit when we take this road and we kind of become more curious about each other's musical cultures until it becomes ours. Like, I would say that when I'm writing the film score – for me, the process is such where, as Hans Zimmer said, if somebody tells you there's a rule, break it. That's the only thing that makes things move forward. I'm a huge fan of that. So first, I learn everything as much as I can, but then later, I'm trying to break as many rules as I can. When I incorporate a particular instrument that's not from my culture, I'm trying to make the instrument behave differently than how it would behave in that particular setting, in that cultural setting. So these things make it more exciting, make the process more exciting. And my thing is always like, when all these instrumentalists are available, then why not try to collaborate more? Why not? Because it's not difficult. If I'm in Chennai (India) composing for a film, I can't get someone who plays the Kompang in. It's not going to be possible, physically possible. I can, but I maybe need to fly or there's so many hindrances for that to happen. But if I'm in Singapore, it's just a call away and I can get someone in. And it's so easy to set up that collaboration, but I don't think about it all the time. But I wish I did more. And I hope that after this project, I'm also programming my subconscious right now as the host. I think it's going to show in the music that I'm about to create from now on, where there's going to be more multicultural influences, once this show is over, I think, because I'm going to be thinking more about it. I'm going to go to bed thinking about it. I'm going to wake up thinking about it. Yeah. So I think that's going to kind of spill away into my music as I create stuff. I love the fact that – Kerong, the main takeaway, for me, from you is that it has to be very individualistic. It has to be very personal and you have to be intuitive about the process. And it can never be something that is seen as an assignment. It should be something that you can resonate with. And if it doesn't resonate with, you shouldn't even do it probably. Yeah. And I like that about it. I like that honesty, because that honesty is so important for artists, because the worst thing you want to do is get lost in all the noise and then you don't even know who you are at the end of it. So... thanks for that sharing. And Chenwei, I love the fact that you learn – you go out of your way to learn about other cultures and allow that to influence your writing. And I think both of you have taught me something very interesting today. Although it feels like it's complete opposites in that sense – both the key takeaways, but I believe that when it's blended together, it can result in a very interesting outcome for the artist. It’s pursuing some sort of artistic excellence.
Chenwei's approach is:
1:46:07
go out there, learn everything, put yourself out there. And sometimes, even if it's not convenient, make efforts to learn things and then let it transpire into your writing and incorporate that and explore yourself and the whole idea of the Singapore sound by learning – through learning and experimenting.
And Kerong's process is:
1:46:31
keep it organic, let it happen when it happens. And it will happen, you know, and stay true to your craft and stay close to yourself as an artist in this journey. Just do your thing, pretty much. Do your thing, yeah, but be open to learning, you know, let it happen when it happens. And I think I'm a hybrid of the both of you. I'm the Merlion. I do both, which is – I have times where I forcibly learn, like for an example, I never listened to Bob Dylan before in my life. Okay, because I mean, I'm not from that era and nobody introduced that music to me, his music to me. So what I did is – but I wanted to learn because I keep seeing Bob Dylan. I write poetry also, apart from writing songs. And I wanted to know because this person is also known as a poet and a songwriter. So what I did is, I went on a journey. I've got his biography. So I refused to listen to his music, but I started reading his biography. So I finished the whole book, now I need to know what music does this guy make? I want to know. And then I go and listen to the music, and everything was so different for me. Because I'm born in 1985. If I had heard Bob Dylan's <i>The Times They Are A-Changin'</i> straight up. I'd be like, okay, what's that about? But now I understand – understood context, because I'm made aware of the context right now. And when I listen to it, I can hear every... A lot of details, you know, and a lot of things, the psychology of the writer and the people who are listening to that music. So, I do have moments in my life where I force learn – I force myself to learn things like what Chenwei does, where he goes out of the way to learn things. But for the most part, I'm also like Kerong. In the studio, I employ a technique where it's a conversation. I allow people to come in, do their thing, I leave it very open, I enjoy it – that may not be your technique in the studio, but rather talking about the approach of making things organic, keeping things organic. And I also employ that in my musical journey, where for the most part, I have these spurts of, you know, forced learning. But at the same time, I'm also all about authenticity, like I want to journey, walk the path and not rush things and allow things to happen, give room and space for things to happen organically. So I think today's podcast also taught me that the application of both methods and approaches were very beneficial for the artists who might want to take the journey to explore the Singapore sound or sounds. So thank you very much for your wisdom and sharing. Really appreciate it.– Thank you. Romba Nandri!(Thank you very much)
