00:00:00Introduction to Liv Penny
00:08:22Origins of Become Education
00:36:38Why Career Education Belongs in Primary
معلومات عن هذه الحلقة
From the moment children develop basic motor skills, they begin role-playing the futures they can imagine. But by upper primary school, these dreams often narrow dramatically - limited by postcodes, stereotypes, and what they see in their immediate environment. What if we could change this pattern?
Liv Penny, co-founder and CEO of Become Education, is transforming how we prepare young people for their futures. Her journey began with a profound observation: watching smart, happy classmates take dramatically different paths based solely on where they lived. This sparked a mission to ensure all children could write their stories "from the inside out" rather than having their futures determined by external circumstances.
The evidence is compelling. OECD research shows 50% of students globally aspire to just 10 occupations, with even narrower patterns at the local level. Meanwhile, 80% of 10-13 year olds think about their futures weekly, yet less than 10% say a teacher knows their aspirations. We're missing a massive opportunity to tap into natural motivation.
Become Education's approach doesn't prematurely force career decisions but instead develops the skills to explore broadly and design meaningful future pathways. Schools implementing the program report remarkable outcomes - from a 205% increase in students feeling their school cares about their future to transformative stories of previously disengaged students finding purpose and hope.
One particularly powerful story involves a disengaged student with dyslexia who discovered animation as her "happy place" through the program. With newfound purpose, she crafted a beautiful email to a Disney animator who responded with encouragement and professional advice. "She was transformed," her teachers reported through tears. "She never spoke and now she has transformed."
The impact extends beyond career readiness to improved engagement across all learning areas. As PISA data confirms, students who connect current learning to future possibilities show improvement in all learning strategies. In a world of AI and rapid change, this approach develops the uniquely human capabilities - curiosity, creativity, agency - that will remain valuable regardless of technological shifts.
Ready to help your students design futures full of possibility? Visit the Become Education website to learn how your school or cluster can implement this powerful, evidence-based approach.
Links and References:
To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning
To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue
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WEBVTT
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Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast.
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It's great to have your company.
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This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association, that is, the values of principal wellbeing, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations.
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If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates.
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Now let's get into today's latest episode.
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Hi Drew.
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I'm Liv Penny.
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I'm the co-founder and CEO of Become Education.
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Fantastic and Liv, welcome to our podcast.
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Let's begin with your story and what led you to create Become.
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Okay, well, it does go back quite a bit, probably back to looking in retrospect.
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I can see the roots of my story right back into the primary years.
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I lived in the UK and the school I went to was a huge catchment area with really varied socioeconomic backgrounds.
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So primary school, you know, everyone's nice and happy, innocent, playing away.
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And as we got through to year five or six equivalent, I could really see some of my closest friends, who were super smart and really happy, start to take a different path as they kind of grew into puberty and that, questioning who they are and where they fit in the world.
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And because you could really see it by pattern of postcode.
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So those who lived in areas with multi-generational unemployment and lower socioeconomic areas, absolutely the pattern was there that they were saying okay, success for me in my world means that I'm funny, I can fight and I can steal cars, whereas success for me in my world was very different.
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It was about doing well at school and going on to do something great and the world was the oyster kind of.
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You know that human capital was very different and that support and the role models around At the time.
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I was really fascinated by what was happening in those people's brains to make them disengage?
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And how could they not see how good life could be and what was out there and want to go and explore the world?
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And I was fascinated by that.
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It was very much a you know.
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Is there something in people's brains that makes them disengage or want to move into crime or drug dealing or all these different things that people were doing?
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So I went off and I did my psychology degree and my master's and it was really became very obvious to me that this was not a neurological thing.
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It hadn't been picked up and addressed in terms of social justice and equity, that we were leaving all this potential untapped and just to waste because people weren't being supported to build aspirations from the inside out.
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Their stories were kind of being written for them from the outside, based on where they were born from the outside, based on where they were born.
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Yeah, so I heard perceptions based on a postcode, beliefs, self-fulfilling beliefs, and that just led to your curiosity to say can we change this evolution cycle that you've seen?
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Yeah, and that curiosity was pointed towards an academic pathway.
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And I actually drafted my kind of PhD plan four times and presented it and the professor just went it's too big, it's too big, you're trying to solve a massive social problem.
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And I was like yes, of course.
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And then a great mentor of mine she's actually a neuroscientist she said you think you know the answer already, don't you?
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I was like, yeah, completely.
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And she said well, no, you're too impatient and practical to do an academic pathway.
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Go and find a better way to solve the problem, and that's kind of how I've ended up.
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Starting Become.
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Yeah, wow, wow, and you can really hear that mission, that it drives you and, in terms of Become, become is underpinned by research.
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It's been endorsed by the OECD as a global effective practice.
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Could you explain why career education and I know we've been discussing this before just starting as early as year five now, liv, why is that so critical?
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I guess the first thing to do is clarify what career education is.
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I think when we talk to any adults, any teachers in professional development that we're working with, any principals, we have to be really clear that.
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You know, often we get that backlash of like, why are we talking to kids that age about their careers?
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You know it's way too young to make a decision.
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And when Victoria had a parliamentary inquiry about careers education a few years back and there was a big backlash reported in the media of you know, let kids be kids, stop forcing them into decisions.
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And I think it's really important that we're really clear on what careers education is, as opposed to the bigger umbrella of career counselling and career decisions and pathways and information is about the skills to explore and design and navigate.
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It is not focused on decisions at all.
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In fact it's almost the opposite.
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At Become we Go instead of that funnel down that most of us would have experienced.
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You know, I don't care how much you've explored, it's the end of high school.
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You need to make a decision now.
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It's your little narrow choices.
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Do this test.
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It's broken.
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It's always been broken.
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It hasn't changed since the 1950s.
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This is the opposite.
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This is opening up their eyes to the whole world of possibilities and giving them the time and space to explore that really broadly and think about it deeply and come up with ideas and ways and the strategies to fit themselves together with that world in ways that excite them personally.
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So that flipping it on its head and going how do I write my story from the inside out?
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Having explored really broadly, I mean, I think, why then?
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So, having said, okay, the outcome of careers education is about skills, not decisions, then we go why primary?
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The OECD work in this space has been really powerful in the last few years.
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I think back in 2018, at the World Economic Forum, they presented the career readiness data, as well as the PISA academic, the literacy and numeracy data, and it was really the first time that anyone had really looked at this.
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How are we doing?
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How are we preparing young people for their future?
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I think mainly because everyone's terrified about AI and tech, but really it's always been this way.
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So they presented this data.
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That said, and the headline that grabbed everyone was 50% of students are aspiring to just 10 occupations.
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So really narrow set of aspirations, and that was globally.
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And those aspirations were the really traditional you know doctors, teachers, lawyers what you would expect that forever people have said yeah, that's a good job, that's accepted and stable and good.
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And you know what will get nods by people.
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So if a young kid is going like, oh, I'm going to be a doctor, everyone will go, oh fantastic, that's great.
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Yeah, I'm going to be a doctor, everyone will go, oh fantastic, that's great, you're born to be a teacher, all of those things.
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What we see, even at a younger age, is that that's really narrow.
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They might have some extra sports people thrown in.
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I want to be a reality TV show, I'm going to be a pro footballer, all of those things but apart from those, they're still super narrow.
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And actually what happens is they get narrower as they get older rather than wow, I didn't know.
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All these other things are out there.
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And at the upper end of primary school we see sorry, we see this narrow pattern at a local level when we work with schools and individual cohorts.
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It's not 50% aspiring to the top 10.
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It's almost 50% aspiring to the top five of that cohort.
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So at a local level it's even more concentrated.
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They're even narrower in their aspirations and at that top five are not this global doctor, teacher, lawyer, but in a school, in two schools in New South Wales we were working with two and a half kilometers apart, but very different.
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In their ICSIA schools that top five are completely different.
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We've got one that are the lawyers, the judges, the doctors, surgeons, and another that are the tradies.
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I want to be an electrician, a plumber.
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So absolutely, you know the same opportunities around them but very different aspirations based on the school they're at and the background and those expectations.
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So those influences about you know what's a good job for a male, a boy, a boy or a girl.
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So the gender stereotypes, the media influences their parental expectations, cultural, religious, all of these things that are the complex influences on someone's aspirations that can start to get hardwired in that upper primary years.
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So we're hardwiring where do you fit in the world and how does that inform your identity?
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And then, obviously, the self-fulfilling piece that you mentioned around.
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I'll behave and engage with school and life to make that happen.
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Wow, I mean no wonder you're going back to your PhD.
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What you've just unpacked there, that's a huge amount of work.
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Where do you start with this type of how to change that mindset, liv?
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It's actually really natural for kids.
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You know we see kids as soon as they get.
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You know it's not asking them to think about something they're not thinking about already.
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Kids, we all know, as soon as they get kind of gross motor skills, they start role-playing.
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And they're role-playing normally the roles that they see in the world around them or that they've seen on TV, but they'll be very much the roles based on what's in their field of vision.
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So we're building on a natural capacity to imagine the future.
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As humans, what separates us is that capacity to imagine a future and move towards it, and students and young people are naturally thinking about this.
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Some research we did with the Northern Territory a few years ago showed and we capture this data ongoing 80% of young people in that 10 to 13 year old bracket were thinking about their future.
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Young people in that 10 to 13 year old bracket were thinking about their future life and career often or all the time, like once a week.
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So they are naturally thinking forwards.
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We do.
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But what they also discovered was that less than 10% of those students said that a teacher or adult at school knows my ideas for my future.
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So we've got this natural source of motivation and future forward looking, but we're not tapping into it.
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So it's not about where do we start.
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It's about leveraging what's already going on in their world and in their heads, and you know, we know, that that is going to.
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If we can tap into that, it's a massive source of being known and valued and cared for.
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So it's not hard to do at all.
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So with that, where's the data?
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What are you seeing with students in terms of making their career choices?
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For example, is social media more powerful than parent influence at this point in time?
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Or what are you currently seeing is where do students at that age, where are they going to seek career advice?
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They're absorbing it In the primary years.
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They're absorbing it from everywhere, so mainly they're following the patterns of the roles they see around them.
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But in our data we do ask you know, where has this idea come from?
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If you've got a top idea right now and it is a real mix of you know, it's hard for young people to crystallize exactly where that idea has come from, because so much of it is absorbed from many places and they're also absorbing the values of those roles.
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So those small gestures of nods or approval, or the comments around the dinner table or the comments from teachers, you'd be a great X or actually no, you wouldn't want to do that.
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There won't be any jobs in that, all of these little.
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So parents and teachers would be the biggest influences.
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We keep thinking social media will come through and influencers will come through in the high aspirations, but they're really not yet.
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It's not an overwhelming.
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Everyone's going to be an Instagram influencer.
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Which is what the media can portray what a lot of young people are currently pursuing in their career aspirations are currently pursuing in their career aspirations.
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Yes, yeah, I mean, there's no doubt the professional sport and professional performing arts is still right up there in those junior years.
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And the job when we're doing this work is not to crush the dreams, it's for them to start asking questions about it.
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So what we see in the data for all careers aspirations is that often there's a massive misalignment between their idea and what their stated idea is and what their plans are.
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And that goes for.
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You know, I'm going to be an engineer, but actually I don't intend to go to university and I'm not achieving any of this.
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As well as I want to be a pro soccer player, but I'm not playing rep, I'm not working, I'm not doing any of that.
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So our job is not to crush those dreams.
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Our job is to kind of go yes, let's talk about those aspirations, let's think about how you would get there, what it would be like, and start to get them curious, asking questions.
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So the actual structure of the program and the learning is about broadening that awareness.
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How do we really explode their thinking and spark up their curiosity for the world and, where they might fit, help them construct aspirations from the inside out, so possibilities for their future, that excite them, not an answer to put in your pocket.
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And then, really critically, how do we move them into action, to give them that agency, those skills, that oh, I can explore one of these ideas and do something to test it out, and yeah, it's okay if I change my mind.
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We need them to be adaptable, curious and resilient, especially when the world of work is changing so fast.
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Those skills are the ones that are in demand and that will help them thrive beyond the school gates.
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Yeah, now, and that's a perfect segue, liv, to the alignment with Become and the New South Wales PPA, which represents 1,800 settings across New South Wales, from metro to rural and remote.
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It's the work of become.
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Where do you see the alignment with our school leaders and networks and what professional learning can become offered to our principals listening in?
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Yeah, well, I think at the basic level, what we're doing goes right to the heart of our vision and values for why we're here.
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What are we trying to prepare our students for?
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We want them to be these agentic learners that are going to thrive in the 21st century in their careers that you know, we don't know about.
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There's plenty of myths and forecasts and trends about what their careers will look like.
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We don't know.
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It's changing faster than any of us can predict.
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So our job in education is to prepare them for what we don't know.
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It's certain uncertainty.
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So it goes right to the heart of our vision and values for what we want to do.
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But we also know that this has to be a strategic decision.
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We know the impact of this work on excellence and achievement.
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We also know it's a huge lever for equity and belonging.
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So it goes to the heart of the things we care most about and I think it's been really overlooked and underdone as a part of the solution.
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I think it almost touches too many of our biggest challenges.
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So we're now really starting to see, with the schools and systems we work with, that recognition of this work has to be raised up.
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It's not the job of a single person at the end of high school.
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This is a student's life, this is their aspirations.
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It helps give meaning to everything they're doing at school and if we incorporate it into our system and our data, their aspirations can be at the heart of this.
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But in terms of the professional learning we do, the leadership briefings are the key.
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So principals get a really broad understanding of what is the latest contemporary evidence in this space, both from a big picture perspective of careers and what it looks like at the global level, as well as why it's so important for primary and what's the interventions we need and what's the return on education.
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You know, we know schools are really crowded places with competing priorities.
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What is the return on education going to be in terms of that lift in instrumental motivation?
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You know we see a 20% uplift as a baseline in students' perception of how connected is what I learn at school to what I'm interested in doing in the future.
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And teachers in the primary years say because those, because we often have the the same teacher across all areas, teachers report like we can see that lift in engagement in all curriculum areas because they're suddenly going oh, I kind of I see why I'm here now.
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So it is that those strategic, the strategic mapping is really important.
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And for leaders to go yes, my school is ready for this, I understand what it's going to take.
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And then the next layer is and those are obviously online or in person, depending on the format available we want everyone, in every context, to be able to access this work.
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The next layer is for schools that are engaging to go okay, how do we empower those teachers who are on the ground, in the classroom?
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How do we go from that strategic level to the classroom?
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What does it look like?
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And there's professional development days as clusters of schools, ideally, where we take them through the evidence.
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You know why are we doing this?
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Give them access to lots of the resources and tools and learning strategies.
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And then the third part is really about contextualizing it.
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As I said earlier, you know this is not simple.
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We've for too long said you know, choosing a career is a simple thing, just do a test and it'll all happen at the end.
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It is complex.
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These are unique students in unique systems and complexities and we want schools who know them best and teachers who know this best to be able to go okay, well, here's the foundation of our learning.
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Here's the resources and what's high quality careers education.
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So lessons, curriculum, aligned lessons, tools, web app to take away that heavy load of how do I need to know about the world of work?
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They don't.
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But then how do I contextualize it for me, for our context, given the parent audience, given the pressures, given our location?
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So that contextualization is really important in that as well.
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Yeah, yes, I mean so many ways in which engagement and even you know, as in the New South Wales public education system, bring back market share.
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Yeah, there's some great examples of practice.
00:20:18.055 --> 00:20:23.367
So we work with several clusters of schools in New South Wales across secondary and primary.
00:20:23.367 --> 00:20:26.763
So we'll start with the share of enrolments.
00:20:26.763 --> 00:20:39.131
I think when parents and the community see the schools working together and feeling like the student and their plans for their future are at the heart of it.
00:20:39.131 --> 00:20:42.584
Schools have used this as a really great transition tool.
00:20:42.584 --> 00:20:44.808
So in terms of that sense of it, schools have used this as a really great transition tool.
00:20:44.808 --> 00:20:45.768
So in terms of that sense of belonging.
00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:51.698
One example I'll share from the Liverpool cluster of schools as part of the Educational Pathways Programme.
00:20:52.380 --> 00:21:00.347
The Director of Educational Leadership there implemented this and said actually for our region, what we need is broader aspirations.
00:21:00.347 --> 00:21:13.836
We know, you know, western Sydney, we've got the new airport coming, but we've got a lot of students who are not completing year 12, who are not going on to tertiary, who are not aspiring to the broad range of opportunities that we're going to have in the region.
00:21:13.836 --> 00:21:22.505
So as a cluster of schools, with the secondaries involved but the primary schools rolling out as the fundamental.
00:21:22.505 --> 00:21:41.761
They rolled out become program in semester two of year six and as part of that work the students go and explore really broadly come up with an idea for their future and, in true kind of development of their own capacity to explore, they do an experiment which allows them to test.
00:21:41.761 --> 00:21:46.406
It might be a killer question like do spies ever get to have a normal job?
00:21:46.406 --> 00:21:51.727
Or how long can builders work before their back hurts?
00:21:51.727 --> 00:21:55.595
You know these simple, some really simple questions.
00:21:55.595 --> 00:22:08.942
Or how can I help my parents agree that this is an okay job for a boy, these killer questions that they are structured to come up with and find out about, and then they presented in a flipped career expo.
00:22:08.942 --> 00:22:23.421
So if we think about traditional career expos, where you go around and passively you know whoever we could get into the hall at the time, often what we can already see in our own community, and you take some leaflets and it's a very passive process.
00:22:23.421 --> 00:22:24.836
This is the opposite.
00:22:24.836 --> 00:22:27.344
This is the students in the driving seat.
00:22:27.344 --> 00:22:41.558
So a flipped career expo where parents come in, where the community is invited, where they've already reached out to industry experts to interview them from their own idea, not because the school have organized this one excursion or incursion.
00:22:42.401 --> 00:23:03.423
And in one example, busby West and Miller those schools they had the secondary principals and careers teams attend that Flipped Career Expo and for one of those schools actually for both of those schools they saw a huge uplift in, obviously, all the normal stats we look at.
00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:11.926
You know, relevance of learning, hope about the future and A teacher knows my ideas for my future.
00:23:11.926 --> 00:23:16.269
But what they really saw was this massive uplift in belonging.
00:23:16.269 --> 00:23:24.515
One of them saw a 205% increase in my school cares about my ideas for my future and that excitement.
00:23:24.515 --> 00:23:33.240
It was like it was the principal walking around that Flip Career Expo.
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:44.833
I was there and he spoke to every student for an hour and a lot of those students strangely the teachers were saying hadn't yet decided on the secondary school choice and this was quite late in the year as well.
00:23:44.833 --> 00:23:53.270
But that principal walked around and spoke to every student and had the chance to go oh, you'll be able to use the science labs have you seen the science labs at school?
00:23:53.270 --> 00:23:56.731
And just engage with them and their engagement.
00:23:56.731 --> 00:23:58.576
And it was like God was in the room.
00:23:58.576 --> 00:24:14.281
They were like, oh my, he spoke to me and the excitement that we can still capture, that enthusiasm and innocence and excitement about the future and that need that draw to that high school and that connection was really powerful and the uplift in.
00:24:14.281 --> 00:24:23.313
Both their awareness of what's out there, how much their aspirations had changed from the benchmarking, as well as their connection to that school, was enormous.
00:24:24.135 --> 00:24:34.797
So transitions is one thing those flipped career expos are really powerful in terms of community engagement but the other part is impact.
00:24:34.977 --> 00:24:39.191
So we don't want this to be hey and there's a program that you can do.
00:24:39.191 --> 00:24:40.996
Here's some pick and mix resources.
00:24:40.996 --> 00:24:48.199
This is important work and we're really committed to the impact and outcomes and connection of that.
00:24:48.199 --> 00:24:58.200
So for every school we work with, we provide a benchmark report which gives them a picture of their current students' aspirations.
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.855
Where are they at in comparison to the norms of that age group?
00:25:01.855 --> 00:25:07.396
What are some of the watchouts that we know that we could actually have a really massive uplift in?
00:25:07.396 --> 00:25:11.976
Are they narrower, are they skewed to certain jobs?
00:25:11.976 --> 00:25:17.436
Do they feel less connected to their learning than other cohorts?
00:25:17.436 --> 00:25:19.952
And then an impact at the end.
00:25:19.952 --> 00:25:22.795
So we can actually measure how has this gone?
00:25:22.795 --> 00:25:24.069
What impact have we had?
00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:35.287
And at a student level, we can be really proactive about those that look really disengaged or need some proactive intervention, and all of this can be part of their transition report as well.
00:25:35.287 --> 00:25:42.748
So really providing that extra layer of insight into beyond academic and that success.
00:25:42.807 --> 00:25:45.834
You mentioned earlier the 205% increase.
00:25:45.834 --> 00:25:48.019
You must get goosebumps of going.
00:25:48.019 --> 00:25:50.528
This actually really does work.
00:25:51.329 --> 00:26:05.433
The approach, the data does, but it's actually more the stories, those individual stories, and it's often the most disengaged students that teachers tell us they see the light bulb go on when they go.
00:26:05.433 --> 00:26:07.291
There is a place for me.
00:26:07.291 --> 00:26:15.087
It's really exciting, you know, and we had one principal say it was the most inspiring session.
00:26:15.087 --> 00:26:40.917
She sat in that first time that the students sit down and exploring the web app that we provide to go with and so every student can see, no matter who they are or where they are, they can access anything to explore and investigate in a low-stakes way.
00:26:40.917 --> 00:26:51.614
They we see the light bulbs go off when they see, actually this narrow definition of success that I wasn't very excited about or hopeless, they suddenly get hope.
00:26:51.614 --> 00:27:03.932
It gives meaning to what they're doing at school and we had a girl recently who really she was totally disengaged.
00:27:03.932 --> 00:27:08.327
According to the teachers, hardly spoke at school and through her experiment, she'd gone through the lessons as well.
00:27:08.327 --> 00:27:11.233
Animation and drawing is the happy place.
00:27:11.233 --> 00:27:12.656
It's what I really love.
00:27:12.656 --> 00:27:15.672
I didn't think it was a thing, I didn't think it would be really love.
00:27:15.672 --> 00:27:28.007
I didn't think it was a thing, I didn't think it would be a job, I don't think I was that good at it, and she found out that she was pretty good at it and she, as part of her experiment, she tracked down someone from the Guild of Animators who was currently working at Walt Disney, asked him for help.
00:27:28.007 --> 00:27:39.534
She had quite severe dyslexic issues, so her letter and email to him was so well crafted in terms of literacy performance because she cared so much.
00:27:39.534 --> 00:27:52.615
It was the most beautiful email, really persuasive, and she got a reply that when you print it out it's two pages long of this animator who's currently responsible for Mickey Mouse at Walt Disney Studios.
00:27:52.615 --> 00:27:57.830
He wrote back and said I had learning difficulties as well at school and look at me now.
00:27:57.830 --> 00:27:59.776
I'm so pleased you reached out.
00:27:59.776 --> 00:28:01.165
Here's how to start.
00:28:01.165 --> 00:28:03.792
You have to work out what sort of characters you like to draw.
00:28:03.792 --> 00:28:11.016
Start with paper and pencil, then move on to this, work out your style Really great professional advice.
00:28:11.016 --> 00:28:17.013
And then on the next page it kept going and going and like if you have any pocket money, here's the equipment you should buy.
00:28:17.013 --> 00:28:22.876
She wrote back and it was all scaffolded through the program how to appropriately say thank you.
00:28:22.876 --> 00:28:29.046
And he sent her back this personalized drawing of Mickey Mouse just saying I hope to work with you someday.
00:28:29.046 --> 00:28:36.960
She was transformed, her teachers called me and the team and said could we have a meeting with you?
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:45.071
I'm like, yeah, of course, like thinking something's gone wrong or maybe a appearance challenge, like the creation.
00:28:45.071 --> 00:28:47.115
So early they were in tears.
00:28:47.115 --> 00:28:50.708
They said she never spoke and she has transformed.
00:28:50.929 --> 00:29:00.715
And we hear stories like this the whole time, of reaching everyone, you know, but also the most disengaged who didn't feel like there was a place for them.
00:29:00.715 --> 00:29:08.527
So we have schools plugging this work in on days where they have attendance issues, because it's about them.
00:29:08.527 --> 00:29:17.530
The students see, and you know, I know, there's a lot of pressure around literacy and numeracy and the time, and that's why we focus so much on that.
00:29:17.530 --> 00:29:19.415
What is the return on education for this?
00:29:19.415 --> 00:29:32.357
But what we're seeing from the latest PISA data is very clear correlation that students who have the chance in school to explore their future see improvement across all learning strategies.
00:29:32.357 --> 00:29:34.923
See improvement across all learning strategies.
00:29:34.923 --> 00:29:49.731
The evidence is there that if we can buy 15 hours for this work, which is curriculum aligned anyway, and take 15 to 20 hours out of year six, we're going to see improvement on all of these other measures as well as the light bulbs.
00:29:50.884 --> 00:29:52.125
Yeah, not just the 205%.
00:29:52.125 --> 00:29:58.951
What a powerful story that you just shared with that student who could see now the light.
00:29:58.951 --> 00:30:10.227
They could see the clear pathway in their world, in their passion, and they knew through this project, through this work, that they can now aspire to that.
00:30:10.227 --> 00:30:13.655
It's given them that golden ticket, so to speak.
00:30:22.144 --> 00:30:23.430
And the realization that they might change their mind.
00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:26.864
50% of the experiments normally result in a change of plan as they find out oh that's not at all what I wanted to be.
00:30:26.864 --> 00:30:27.586
I didn't realize.
00:30:27.586 --> 00:30:30.275
I don't think I could be a vet because they put dogs down all day.
00:30:30.275 --> 00:30:32.407
We like that.
00:30:32.407 --> 00:30:34.054
50% of them change in their mind.
00:30:34.054 --> 00:30:40.347
You know it's no coincidence that there's the same kind of levels that we're seeing of non-completion of tertiary qualifications.
00:30:40.347 --> 00:30:45.708
But because they're getting a chance to test it out earlier, we're de-risking it.
00:30:45.708 --> 00:30:49.979
It's a really low stakes way to de-risk their future.
00:30:49.979 --> 00:30:57.673
But as well as that, they're learning that they change, that the world changes, that they've got the confidence and the skills to actually start.
00:30:57.673 --> 00:31:00.269
Life isn't after year 12.
00:31:00.269 --> 00:31:01.192
Life is now.
00:31:01.192 --> 00:31:02.695
You can do something about it now.
00:31:03.265 --> 00:31:04.366
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:04.366 --> 00:31:10.499
So what would be your ultimate wish with your work at this point in time, Liv?
00:31:12.487 --> 00:31:16.156
Well, obviously we work across the research piece.
00:31:16.156 --> 00:31:27.517
So we're constantly building that evidence base, work closely into the OECD career readiness indicators publishing, trying to push the impact for this in education.
00:31:27.517 --> 00:31:32.232
And it's not just primaries, we work for primaries and secondaries.
00:31:32.232 --> 00:31:36.269
So on the research point, we push on that.
00:31:36.269 --> 00:31:52.834
We're also lobbying pretty hard from a policy perspective and something just came out yesterday around ambitions that 50% of tertiary education will be vet instead of uni, so it will be a 50-50 split and that perceived equity of pathways.
00:31:52.834 --> 00:31:57.271
That can't be done at the end, that has to happen from the beginning.
00:31:57.773 --> 00:32:14.078
So there's some real big federal targets about equity, participation and types of tertiary that need quality careers education from primary to actually change perceptions and pathways and open up that space for students to design their own pathway.
00:32:14.078 --> 00:32:26.935
But then on the practice side we obviously know that we could be, you know, have all the theory in the world, but unless we're supporting professional development and have tools to help practice that really work, then that's no good.
00:32:26.935 --> 00:32:32.631
So from our perspective we're really trying to scale how this works for schools.
00:32:32.631 --> 00:32:51.875
So if there are clusters of schools beyond the ones you know we're working with several different clusters of New South Wales schools then, you know, reach out and we can put together a plan for either semester two, for this year's transition you know it's all there and ready to go or for 2026 as a bigger project.
00:32:52.267 --> 00:33:01.635
Yeah, fantastic, and we'll put all of the links and references in our podcast notes today for those who can click through and find out further.
00:33:01.635 --> 00:33:03.551
Look in terms of closing.
00:33:03.551 --> 00:33:12.394
We always ask our guests which educational leaders have inspired you and what keeps you hopeful about the future of education.
00:33:12.394 --> 00:33:12.655
Liv.
00:33:15.127 --> 00:33:16.373
Oh, so many.
00:33:16.373 --> 00:33:17.015
That inspired me.
00:33:17.015 --> 00:33:24.045
I mean, last week I watched Guy Claxton's lecture for the Dean's Lecture at University of Melbourne.
00:33:24.045 --> 00:33:32.400
I love the work that Melbourne Metrics are doing around trying to change, you know, the ATAR and what does success look like?
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.525
Um, and that broader definition of success.
00:33:35.525 --> 00:33:41.702
I thought Guy's lecture around the science of learning, um, was particularly useful.
00:33:42.064 --> 00:33:52.271
Um, because I think we can fill into this dichotomy and we're often up against um, you know there's no room for anything apart from explicit instruction of literacy and numeracy.
00:33:52.271 --> 00:33:58.349
So for me to have, you know, we're about the whole student.
00:33:58.349 --> 00:34:05.857
We have to keep an eye on what the future is and success for us is about that future for those individual, complex, unique students.
00:34:05.857 --> 00:34:11.976
And if we spend all our time, you know if they're disengaged we're not going to have any impact.
00:34:11.976 --> 00:34:14.032
We can't just keep hammering the same thing.
00:34:14.032 --> 00:34:20.201
We can take some time to look at the whole student and dial up the agency piece without being no explicit instruction.
00:34:20.201 --> 00:34:21.389
It's not that dichotomy.
00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:27.458
So his work was great and I also love the debate that's happening beyond education.
00:34:27.498 --> 00:34:30.530
Really that has an impact on education around AI.
00:34:30.530 --> 00:34:57.327
You know every conversation, every conference has a big part of AI, I think, the role of where it's nutting out, is that real focus on what's going to be most critical around curiosity, critical thinking, those things that make us the most human, and that's what we're all about as well that true sense of agency, not choice over a project.
00:34:57.327 --> 00:35:02.318
But how do we develop people that have real, true agency over their learning and life?
00:35:02.318 --> 00:35:07.494
And that's yeah, that's what I'm really fascinated by at the moment.
00:35:07.494 --> 00:35:18.532
Not AI just because we could do it, but what's the purpose of it, what's the place of it and how do we use it to move us forward as humans rather than overtake.
00:35:18.994 --> 00:35:26.695
Yeah, there's some terrific educators that you've mentioned in that piece and the AI is very relevant.
00:35:26.695 --> 00:35:32.094
People listening saying, well, where does AI fit in career aspirations?
00:35:32.094 --> 00:35:35.862
Isn't AI going to take all of the jobs, liv?
00:35:35.862 --> 00:35:37.664
What's your response to that?
00:35:37.664 --> 00:38:13.204
Thank you, thank you, you, yeah, yeah, well said and you can see that moral imperative definitely coming through.
00:38:13.204 --> 00:38:21.010
So, for principals listening who are curious about Become and they want to learn more, what would be the first steps?
00:38:21.010 --> 00:38:21.251
Liv?
00:38:22.126 --> 00:38:23.492
Oh, you can go to the website.
00:38:23.492 --> 00:38:31.871
I'll leave a link for the details of the primary program and you can reach out through there to book a chat.
00:38:31.871 --> 00:38:34.878
Or from a cluster point of view.
00:38:34.878 --> 00:38:48.059
Often we work with the Director of Educational Leadership to do it at a cluster level and have a leadership briefing and then open up a program for that cluster of schools and a community of practice.
00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:49.501
Yeah, terrific.
00:38:49.501 --> 00:38:53.414
Yeah, we'll put all of those links in our podcast notes.
00:38:53.414 --> 00:38:57.143
Terrific, yeah, we'll put all of those links in our podcast notes.
00:38:57.143 --> 00:39:04.309
Liv, thank you for your insight, your passion, reminding us of the power of broadening student aspirations early.
00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:12.320
Your work is really shaping how we think about learning, belonging and future readiness, and how leadership plays a central role in that a central role in that To our listeners.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:19.139
Thank you for joining us and you'll find all of our links to the research resources and upcoming opportunities.
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.009
So thank you again, liv.
00:39:22.414 --> 00:39:22.855
Thanks, Drew.
00:00:00.661 --> 00:00:06.434
Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast.
00:00:06.434 --> 00:00:08.125
It's great to have your company.
00:00:08.125 --> 00:00:23.271
This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association, that is, the values of principal wellbeing, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations.
00:00:23.271 --> 00:00:28.652
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates.
00:00:28.652 --> 00:00:32.109
Now let's get into today's latest episode.
00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:33.781
Hi Drew.
00:00:33.781 --> 00:00:34.884
I'm Liv Penny.
00:00:34.884 --> 00:00:37.832
I'm the co-founder and CEO of Become Education.
00:00:38.860 --> 00:00:42.015
Fantastic and Liv, welcome to our podcast.
00:00:42.015 --> 00:00:47.633
Let's begin with your story and what led you to create Become.
00:00:49.220 --> 00:00:55.134
Okay, well, it does go back quite a bit, probably back to looking in retrospect.
00:00:55.134 --> 00:00:59.027
I can see the roots of my story right back into the primary years.
00:00:59.027 --> 00:01:07.472
I lived in the UK and the school I went to was a huge catchment area with really varied socioeconomic backgrounds.
00:01:07.472 --> 00:01:12.471
So primary school, you know, everyone's nice and happy, innocent, playing away.
00:01:12.471 --> 00:01:31.028
And as we got through to year five or six equivalent, I could really see some of my closest friends, who were super smart and really happy, start to take a different path as they kind of grew into puberty and that, questioning who they are and where they fit in the world.
00:01:31.028 --> 00:01:34.965
And because you could really see it by pattern of postcode.
00:01:34.965 --> 00:01:56.932
So those who lived in areas with multi-generational unemployment and lower socioeconomic areas, absolutely the pattern was there that they were saying okay, success for me in my world means that I'm funny, I can fight and I can steal cars, whereas success for me in my world was very different.
00:01:56.932 --> 00:02:02.069
It was about doing well at school and going on to do something great and the world was the oyster kind of.
00:02:02.069 --> 00:02:07.674
You know that human capital was very different and that support and the role models around At the time.
00:02:07.713 --> 00:02:13.227
I was really fascinated by what was happening in those people's brains to make them disengage?
00:02:13.227 --> 00:02:21.127
And how could they not see how good life could be and what was out there and want to go and explore the world?
00:02:21.127 --> 00:02:24.632
And I was fascinated by that.
00:02:24.632 --> 00:02:26.194
It was very much a you know.
00:02:26.194 --> 00:02:34.586
Is there something in people's brains that makes them disengage or want to move into crime or drug dealing or all these different things that people were doing?
00:02:34.586 --> 00:02:45.844
So I went off and I did my psychology degree and my master's and it was really became very obvious to me that this was not a neurological thing.
00:02:45.844 --> 00:03:17.513
It hadn't been picked up and addressed in terms of social justice and equity, that we were leaving all this potential untapped and just to waste because people weren't being supported to build aspirations from the inside out.
00:03:17.513 --> 00:03:24.382
Their stories were kind of being written for them from the outside, based on where they were born from the outside, based on where they were born.
00:03:24.401 --> 00:03:40.126
Yeah, so I heard perceptions based on a postcode, beliefs, self-fulfilling beliefs, and that just led to your curiosity to say can we change this evolution cycle that you've seen?
00:03:40.786 --> 00:03:47.407
Yeah, and that curiosity was pointed towards an academic pathway.
00:03:47.407 --> 00:03:59.469
And I actually drafted my kind of PhD plan four times and presented it and the professor just went it's too big, it's too big, you're trying to solve a massive social problem.
00:03:59.469 --> 00:04:00.950
And I was like yes, of course.
00:04:00.950 --> 00:04:08.413
And then a great mentor of mine she's actually a neuroscientist she said you think you know the answer already, don't you?
00:04:08.413 --> 00:04:10.272
I was like, yeah, completely.
00:04:10.353 --> 00:04:16.274
And she said well, no, you're too impatient and practical to do an academic pathway.
00:04:16.274 --> 00:04:21.615
Go and find a better way to solve the problem, and that's kind of how I've ended up.
00:04:21.615 --> 00:04:22.596
Starting Become.
00:04:23.096 --> 00:04:34.418
Yeah, wow, wow, and you can really hear that mission, that it drives you and, in terms of Become, become is underpinned by research.
00:04:34.418 --> 00:04:40.812
It's been endorsed by the OECD as a global effective practice.
00:04:40.812 --> 00:04:51.346
Could you explain why career education and I know we've been discussing this before just starting as early as year five now, liv, why is that so critical?
00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:56.363
I guess the first thing to do is clarify what career education is.
00:04:56.363 --> 00:05:04.607
I think when we talk to any adults, any teachers in professional development that we're working with, any principals, we have to be really clear that.
00:05:04.607 --> 00:05:09.920
You know, often we get that backlash of like, why are we talking to kids that age about their careers?
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.067
You know it's way too young to make a decision.
00:05:13.067 --> 00:05:26.682
And when Victoria had a parliamentary inquiry about careers education a few years back and there was a big backlash reported in the media of you know, let kids be kids, stop forcing them into decisions.
00:05:26.682 --> 00:05:45.154
And I think it's really important that we're really clear on what careers education is, as opposed to the bigger umbrella of career counselling and career decisions and pathways and information is about the skills to explore and design and navigate.
00:05:45.154 --> 00:05:47.757
It is not focused on decisions at all.
00:05:47.757 --> 00:05:49.257
In fact it's almost the opposite.
00:05:49.257 --> 00:05:53.687
At Become we Go instead of that funnel down that most of us would have experienced.
00:05:53.687 --> 00:05:56.733
You know, I don't care how much you've explored, it's the end of high school.
00:05:56.733 --> 00:05:57.925
You need to make a decision now.
00:05:57.925 --> 00:06:00.305
It's your little narrow choices.
00:06:00.305 --> 00:06:01.088
Do this test.
00:06:01.088 --> 00:06:02.646
It's broken.
00:06:02.646 --> 00:06:03.644
It's always been broken.
00:06:03.644 --> 00:06:05.959
It hasn't changed since the 1950s.
00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:07.401
This is the opposite.
00:06:07.401 --> 00:06:24.762
This is opening up their eyes to the whole world of possibilities and giving them the time and space to explore that really broadly and think about it deeply and come up with ideas and ways and the strategies to fit themselves together with that world in ways that excite them personally.
00:06:24.762 --> 00:06:29.149
So that flipping it on its head and going how do I write my story from the inside out?
00:06:29.149 --> 00:06:32.973
Having explored really broadly, I mean, I think, why then?
00:06:32.973 --> 00:06:40.107
So, having said, okay, the outcome of careers education is about skills, not decisions, then we go why primary?
00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:46.651
The OECD work in this space has been really powerful in the last few years.
00:06:46.651 --> 00:07:00.463
I think back in 2018, at the World Economic Forum, they presented the career readiness data, as well as the PISA academic, the literacy and numeracy data, and it was really the first time that anyone had really looked at this.
00:07:00.463 --> 00:07:01.425
How are we doing?
00:07:01.425 --> 00:07:03.754
How are we preparing young people for their future?
00:07:03.754 --> 00:07:10.552
I think mainly because everyone's terrified about AI and tech, but really it's always been this way.
00:07:10.552 --> 00:07:12.824
So they presented this data.
00:07:12.824 --> 00:07:18.966
That said, and the headline that grabbed everyone was 50% of students are aspiring to just 10 occupations.
00:07:18.966 --> 00:07:25.245
So really narrow set of aspirations, and that was globally.
00:07:25.245 --> 00:07:37.750
And those aspirations were the really traditional you know doctors, teachers, lawyers what you would expect that forever people have said yeah, that's a good job, that's accepted and stable and good.
00:07:38.961 --> 00:07:40.687
And you know what will get nods by people.
00:07:40.687 --> 00:07:50.142
So if a young kid is going like, oh, I'm going to be a doctor, everyone will go, oh fantastic, that's great.
00:07:50.142 --> 00:07:54.379
Yeah, I'm going to be a doctor, everyone will go, oh fantastic, that's great, you're born to be a teacher, all of those things.
00:07:54.379 --> 00:08:02.646
What we see, even at a younger age, is that that's really narrow.
00:08:02.646 --> 00:08:03.949
They might have some extra sports people thrown in.
00:08:03.949 --> 00:08:10.451
I want to be a reality TV show, I'm going to be a pro footballer, all of those things but apart from those, they're still super narrow.
00:08:10.451 --> 00:08:15.038
And actually what happens is they get narrower as they get older rather than wow, I didn't know.
00:08:15.038 --> 00:08:16.341
All these other things are out there.
00:08:17.723 --> 00:08:30.540
And at the upper end of primary school we see sorry, we see this narrow pattern at a local level when we work with schools and individual cohorts.
00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:33.868
It's not 50% aspiring to the top 10.
00:08:33.868 --> 00:08:37.841
It's almost 50% aspiring to the top five of that cohort.
00:08:37.841 --> 00:08:41.490
So at a local level it's even more concentrated.
00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:54.392
They're even narrower in their aspirations and at that top five are not this global doctor, teacher, lawyer, but in a school, in two schools in New South Wales we were working with two and a half kilometers apart, but very different.
00:08:54.392 --> 00:08:57.381
In their ICSIA schools that top five are completely different.
00:08:57.381 --> 00:09:04.706
We've got one that are the lawyers, the judges, the doctors, surgeons, and another that are the tradies.
00:09:04.807 --> 00:09:06.140
I want to be an electrician, a plumber.
00:09:06.140 --> 00:09:15.529
So absolutely, you know the same opportunities around them but very different aspirations based on the school they're at and the background and those expectations.
00:09:15.529 --> 00:09:21.015
So those influences about you know what's a good job for a male, a boy, a boy or a girl.
00:09:21.015 --> 00:09:38.216
So the gender stereotypes, the media influences their parental expectations, cultural, religious, all of these things that are the complex influences on someone's aspirations that can start to get hardwired in that upper primary years.
00:09:38.216 --> 00:09:44.232
So we're hardwiring where do you fit in the world and how does that inform your identity?
00:09:44.232 --> 00:09:48.884
And then, obviously, the self-fulfilling piece that you mentioned around.
00:09:48.884 --> 00:09:54.234
I'll behave and engage with school and life to make that happen.
00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:00.408
Wow, I mean no wonder you're going back to your PhD.
00:10:00.408 --> 00:10:05.054
What you've just unpacked there, that's a huge amount of work.
00:10:05.054 --> 00:10:12.134
Where do you start with this type of how to change that mindset, liv?
00:10:13.961 --> 00:10:15.807
It's actually really natural for kids.
00:10:15.807 --> 00:10:18.248
You know we see kids as soon as they get.
00:10:18.248 --> 00:10:21.509
You know it's not asking them to think about something they're not thinking about already.
00:10:21.509 --> 00:10:26.548
Kids, we all know, as soon as they get kind of gross motor skills, they start role-playing.
00:10:26.548 --> 00:10:35.583
And they're role-playing normally the roles that they see in the world around them or that they've seen on TV, but they'll be very much the roles based on what's in their field of vision.
00:10:35.583 --> 00:10:41.200
So we're building on a natural capacity to imagine the future.
00:10:41.581 --> 00:10:51.472
As humans, what separates us is that capacity to imagine a future and move towards it, and students and young people are naturally thinking about this.
00:10:51.960 --> 00:11:04.173
Some research we did with the Northern Territory a few years ago showed and we capture this data ongoing 80% of young people in that 10 to 13 year old bracket were thinking about their future.
00:11:04.173 --> 00:11:09.307
Young people in that 10 to 13 year old bracket were thinking about their future life and career often or all the time, like once a week.
00:11:09.307 --> 00:11:12.153
So they are naturally thinking forwards.
00:11:12.153 --> 00:11:12.634
We do.
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But what they also discovered was that less than 10% of those students said that a teacher or adult at school knows my ideas for my future.
00:11:22.804 --> 00:11:30.028
So we've got this natural source of motivation and future forward looking, but we're not tapping into it.
00:11:30.028 --> 00:11:32.561
So it's not about where do we start.
00:11:32.561 --> 00:11:40.820
It's about leveraging what's already going on in their world and in their heads, and you know, we know, that that is going to.
00:11:40.820 --> 00:11:45.668
If we can tap into that, it's a massive source of being known and valued and cared for.
00:11:45.668 --> 00:11:49.605
So it's not hard to do at all.
00:11:50.657 --> 00:11:54.567
So with that, where's the data?
00:11:54.567 --> 00:12:00.427
What are you seeing with students in terms of making their career choices?
00:12:00.427 --> 00:12:05.616
For example, is social media more powerful than parent influence at this point in time?
00:12:05.616 --> 00:12:15.341
Or what are you currently seeing is where do students at that age, where are they going to seek career advice?
00:12:16.724 --> 00:12:18.567
They're absorbing it In the primary years.
00:12:18.567 --> 00:12:24.764
They're absorbing it from everywhere, so mainly they're following the patterns of the roles they see around them.
00:12:24.764 --> 00:12:28.269
But in our data we do ask you know, where has this idea come from?
00:12:28.269 --> 00:12:43.609
If you've got a top idea right now and it is a real mix of you know, it's hard for young people to crystallize exactly where that idea has come from, because so much of it is absorbed from many places and they're also absorbing the values of those roles.
00:12:43.609 --> 00:12:54.865
So those small gestures of nods or approval, or the comments around the dinner table or the comments from teachers, you'd be a great X or actually no, you wouldn't want to do that.
00:12:54.865 --> 00:12:57.198
There won't be any jobs in that, all of these little.
00:12:57.198 --> 00:12:59.750
So parents and teachers would be the biggest influences.
00:12:59.750 --> 00:13:08.423
We keep thinking social media will come through and influencers will come through in the high aspirations, but they're really not yet.
00:13:08.423 --> 00:13:11.188
It's not an overwhelming.
00:13:11.188 --> 00:13:13.543
Everyone's going to be an Instagram influencer.
00:13:14.927 --> 00:13:25.530
Which is what the media can portray what a lot of young people are currently pursuing in their career aspirations are currently pursuing in their career aspirations.
00:13:25.672 --> 00:13:33.279
Yes, yeah, I mean, there's no doubt the professional sport and professional performing arts is still right up there in those junior years.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:40.903
And the job when we're doing this work is not to crush the dreams, it's for them to start asking questions about it.
00:13:40.903 --> 00:13:51.647
So what we see in the data for all careers aspirations is that often there's a massive misalignment between their idea and what their stated idea is and what their plans are.
00:13:51.647 --> 00:13:53.179
And that goes for.
00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:58.160
You know, I'm going to be an engineer, but actually I don't intend to go to university and I'm not achieving any of this.
00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:05.126
As well as I want to be a pro soccer player, but I'm not playing rep, I'm not working, I'm not doing any of that.
00:14:05.634 --> 00:14:07.663
So our job is not to crush those dreams.
00:14:07.663 --> 00:14:17.241
Our job is to kind of go yes, let's talk about those aspirations, let's think about how you would get there, what it would be like, and start to get them curious, asking questions.
00:14:17.241 --> 00:14:25.408
So the actual structure of the program and the learning is about broadening that awareness.
00:14:25.408 --> 00:14:40.107
How do we really explode their thinking and spark up their curiosity for the world and, where they might fit, help them construct aspirations from the inside out, so possibilities for their future, that excite them, not an answer to put in your pocket.
00:14:40.107 --> 00:14:52.403
And then, really critically, how do we move them into action, to give them that agency, those skills, that oh, I can explore one of these ideas and do something to test it out, and yeah, it's okay if I change my mind.
00:14:52.403 --> 00:15:00.004
We need them to be adaptable, curious and resilient, especially when the world of work is changing so fast.
00:15:00.004 --> 00:15:04.745
Those skills are the ones that are in demand and that will help them thrive beyond the school gates.
00:15:05.265 --> 00:15:20.610
Yeah, now, and that's a perfect segue, liv, to the alignment with Become and the New South Wales PPA, which represents 1,800 settings across New South Wales, from metro to rural and remote.
00:15:20.610 --> 00:15:23.659
It's the work of become.
00:15:23.659 --> 00:15:33.855
Where do you see the alignment with our school leaders and networks and what professional learning can become offered to our principals listening in?
00:15:35.038 --> 00:15:44.119
Yeah, well, I think at the basic level, what we're doing goes right to the heart of our vision and values for why we're here.
00:15:44.119 --> 00:15:46.864
What are we trying to prepare our students for?
00:15:46.864 --> 00:15:54.775
We want them to be these agentic learners that are going to thrive in the 21st century in their careers that you know, we don't know about.
00:15:54.775 --> 00:15:58.787
There's plenty of myths and forecasts and trends about what their careers will look like.
00:15:58.787 --> 00:15:59.817
We don't know.
00:15:59.817 --> 00:16:03.009
It's changing faster than any of us can predict.
00:16:03.009 --> 00:16:06.162
So our job in education is to prepare them for what we don't know.
00:16:06.162 --> 00:16:07.847
It's certain uncertainty.
00:16:07.847 --> 00:16:11.883
So it goes right to the heart of our vision and values for what we want to do.
00:16:11.883 --> 00:16:16.135
But we also know that this has to be a strategic decision.
00:16:16.135 --> 00:16:20.682
We know the impact of this work on excellence and achievement.
00:16:20.682 --> 00:16:25.668
We also know it's a huge lever for equity and belonging.
00:16:25.668 --> 00:16:34.221
So it goes to the heart of the things we care most about and I think it's been really overlooked and underdone as a part of the solution.
00:16:34.221 --> 00:16:37.488
I think it almost touches too many of our biggest challenges.
00:16:37.488 --> 00:16:45.585
So we're now really starting to see, with the schools and systems we work with, that recognition of this work has to be raised up.
00:16:45.585 --> 00:16:48.985
It's not the job of a single person at the end of high school.
00:16:48.985 --> 00:16:52.280
This is a student's life, this is their aspirations.
00:16:52.280 --> 00:17:00.847
It helps give meaning to everything they're doing at school and if we incorporate it into our system and our data, their aspirations can be at the heart of this.
00:17:00.847 --> 00:17:10.676
But in terms of the professional learning we do, the leadership briefings are the key.
00:17:10.676 --> 00:17:25.838
So principals get a really broad understanding of what is the latest contemporary evidence in this space, both from a big picture perspective of careers and what it looks like at the global level, as well as why it's so important for primary and what's the interventions we need and what's the return on education.
00:17:25.838 --> 00:17:30.817
You know, we know schools are really crowded places with competing priorities.
00:17:30.817 --> 00:17:36.798
What is the return on education going to be in terms of that lift in instrumental motivation?
00:17:36.798 --> 00:17:46.740
You know we see a 20% uplift as a baseline in students' perception of how connected is what I learn at school to what I'm interested in doing in the future.
00:17:46.740 --> 00:18:02.919
And teachers in the primary years say because those, because we often have the the same teacher across all areas, teachers report like we can see that lift in engagement in all curriculum areas because they're suddenly going oh, I kind of I see why I'm here now.
00:18:02.919 --> 00:18:08.249
So it is that those strategic, the strategic mapping is really important.
00:18:08.249 --> 00:18:13.622
And for leaders to go yes, my school is ready for this, I understand what it's going to take.
00:18:13.622 --> 00:18:27.200
And then the next layer is and those are obviously online or in person, depending on the format available we want everyone, in every context, to be able to access this work.
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:35.284
The next layer is for schools that are engaging to go okay, how do we empower those teachers who are on the ground, in the classroom?
00:18:35.284 --> 00:18:40.261
How do we go from that strategic level to the classroom?
00:18:40.261 --> 00:18:41.304
What does it look like?
00:18:41.304 --> 00:18:49.667
And there's professional development days as clusters of schools, ideally, where we take them through the evidence.
00:18:49.667 --> 00:18:50.997
You know why are we doing this?
00:18:50.997 --> 00:18:55.688
Give them access to lots of the resources and tools and learning strategies.
00:18:56.275 --> 00:18:58.942
And then the third part is really about contextualizing it.
00:18:58.942 --> 00:19:02.659
As I said earlier, you know this is not simple.
00:19:02.659 --> 00:19:08.385
We've for too long said you know, choosing a career is a simple thing, just do a test and it'll all happen at the end.
00:19:08.385 --> 00:19:10.017
It is complex.
00:19:10.017 --> 00:19:22.016
These are unique students in unique systems and complexities and we want schools who know them best and teachers who know this best to be able to go okay, well, here's the foundation of our learning.
00:19:22.016 --> 00:19:25.923
Here's the resources and what's high quality careers education.
00:19:25.923 --> 00:19:35.726
So lessons, curriculum, aligned lessons, tools, web app to take away that heavy load of how do I need to know about the world of work?
00:19:35.726 --> 00:19:36.327
They don't.
00:19:36.327 --> 00:19:46.529
But then how do I contextualize it for me, for our context, given the parent audience, given the pressures, given our location?
00:19:46.529 --> 00:19:50.544
So that contextualization is really important in that as well.
00:19:50.984 --> 00:20:13.573
Yeah, yes, I mean so many ways in which engagement and even you know, as in the New South Wales public education system, bring back market share.
00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:18.055
Yeah, there's some great examples of practice.
00:20:18.055 --> 00:20:23.367
So we work with several clusters of schools in New South Wales across secondary and primary.
00:20:23.367 --> 00:20:26.763
So we'll start with the share of enrolments.
00:20:26.763 --> 00:20:39.131
I think when parents and the community see the schools working together and feeling like the student and their plans for their future are at the heart of it.
00:20:39.131 --> 00:20:42.584
Schools have used this as a really great transition tool.
00:20:42.584 --> 00:20:44.808
So in terms of that sense of it, schools have used this as a really great transition tool.
00:20:44.808 --> 00:20:45.768
So in terms of that sense of belonging.
00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:51.698
One example I'll share from the Liverpool cluster of schools as part of the Educational Pathways Programme.
00:20:52.380 --> 00:21:00.347
The Director of Educational Leadership there implemented this and said actually for our region, what we need is broader aspirations.
00:21:00.347 --> 00:21:13.836
We know, you know, western Sydney, we've got the new airport coming, but we've got a lot of students who are not completing year 12, who are not going on to tertiary, who are not aspiring to the broad range of opportunities that we're going to have in the region.
00:21:13.836 --> 00:21:22.505
So as a cluster of schools, with the secondaries involved but the primary schools rolling out as the fundamental.
00:21:22.505 --> 00:21:41.761
They rolled out become program in semester two of year six and as part of that work the students go and explore really broadly come up with an idea for their future and, in true kind of development of their own capacity to explore, they do an experiment which allows them to test.
00:21:41.761 --> 00:21:46.406
It might be a killer question like do spies ever get to have a normal job?
00:21:46.406 --> 00:21:51.727
Or how long can builders work before their back hurts?
00:21:51.727 --> 00:21:55.595
You know these simple, some really simple questions.
00:21:55.595 --> 00:22:08.942
Or how can I help my parents agree that this is an okay job for a boy, these killer questions that they are structured to come up with and find out about, and then they presented in a flipped career expo.
00:22:08.942 --> 00:22:23.421
So if we think about traditional career expos, where you go around and passively you know whoever we could get into the hall at the time, often what we can already see in our own community, and you take some leaflets and it's a very passive process.
00:22:23.421 --> 00:22:24.836
This is the opposite.
00:22:24.836 --> 00:22:27.344
This is the students in the driving seat.
00:22:27.344 --> 00:22:41.558
So a flipped career expo where parents come in, where the community is invited, where they've already reached out to industry experts to interview them from their own idea, not because the school have organized this one excursion or incursion.
00:22:42.401 --> 00:23:03.423
And in one example, busby West and Miller those schools they had the secondary principals and careers teams attend that Flipped Career Expo and for one of those schools actually for both of those schools they saw a huge uplift in, obviously, all the normal stats we look at.
00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:11.926
You know, relevance of learning, hope about the future and A teacher knows my ideas for my future.
00:23:11.926 --> 00:23:16.269
But what they really saw was this massive uplift in belonging.
00:23:16.269 --> 00:23:24.515
One of them saw a 205% increase in my school cares about my ideas for my future and that excitement.
00:23:24.515 --> 00:23:33.240
It was like it was the principal walking around that Flip Career Expo.
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:44.833
I was there and he spoke to every student for an hour and a lot of those students strangely the teachers were saying hadn't yet decided on the secondary school choice and this was quite late in the year as well.
00:23:44.833 --> 00:23:53.270
But that principal walked around and spoke to every student and had the chance to go oh, you'll be able to use the science labs have you seen the science labs at school?
00:23:53.270 --> 00:23:56.731
And just engage with them and their engagement.
00:23:56.731 --> 00:23:58.576
And it was like God was in the room.
00:23:58.576 --> 00:24:14.281
They were like, oh my, he spoke to me and the excitement that we can still capture, that enthusiasm and innocence and excitement about the future and that need that draw to that high school and that connection was really powerful and the uplift in.
00:24:14.281 --> 00:24:23.313
Both their awareness of what's out there, how much their aspirations had changed from the benchmarking, as well as their connection to that school, was enormous.
00:24:24.135 --> 00:24:34.797
So transitions is one thing those flipped career expos are really powerful in terms of community engagement but the other part is impact.
00:24:34.977 --> 00:24:39.191
So we don't want this to be hey and there's a program that you can do.
00:24:39.191 --> 00:24:40.996
Here's some pick and mix resources.
00:24:40.996 --> 00:24:48.199
This is important work and we're really committed to the impact and outcomes and connection of that.
00:24:48.199 --> 00:24:58.200
So for every school we work with, we provide a benchmark report which gives them a picture of their current students' aspirations.
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.855
Where are they at in comparison to the norms of that age group?
00:25:01.855 --> 00:25:07.396
What are some of the watchouts that we know that we could actually have a really massive uplift in?
00:25:07.396 --> 00:25:11.976
Are they narrower, are they skewed to certain jobs?
00:25:11.976 --> 00:25:17.436
Do they feel less connected to their learning than other cohorts?
00:25:17.436 --> 00:25:19.952
And then an impact at the end.
00:25:19.952 --> 00:25:22.795
So we can actually measure how has this gone?
00:25:22.795 --> 00:25:24.069
What impact have we had?
00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:35.287
And at a student level, we can be really proactive about those that look really disengaged or need some proactive intervention, and all of this can be part of their transition report as well.
00:25:35.287 --> 00:25:42.748
So really providing that extra layer of insight into beyond academic and that success.
00:25:42.807 --> 00:25:45.834
You mentioned earlier the 205% increase.
00:25:45.834 --> 00:25:48.019
You must get goosebumps of going.
00:25:48.019 --> 00:25:50.528
This actually really does work.
00:25:51.329 --> 00:26:05.433
The approach, the data does, but it's actually more the stories, those individual stories, and it's often the most disengaged students that teachers tell us they see the light bulb go on when they go.
00:26:05.433 --> 00:26:07.291
There is a place for me.
00:26:07.291 --> 00:26:15.087
It's really exciting, you know, and we had one principal say it was the most inspiring session.
00:26:15.087 --> 00:26:40.917
She sat in that first time that the students sit down and exploring the web app that we provide to go with and so every student can see, no matter who they are or where they are, they can access anything to explore and investigate in a low-stakes way.
00:26:40.917 --> 00:26:51.614
They we see the light bulbs go off when they see, actually this narrow definition of success that I wasn't very excited about or hopeless, they suddenly get hope.
00:26:51.614 --> 00:27:03.932
It gives meaning to what they're doing at school and we had a girl recently who really she was totally disengaged.
00:27:03.932 --> 00:27:08.327
According to the teachers, hardly spoke at school and through her experiment, she'd gone through the lessons as well.
00:27:08.327 --> 00:27:11.233
Animation and drawing is the happy place.
00:27:11.233 --> 00:27:12.656
It's what I really love.
00:27:12.656 --> 00:27:15.672
I didn't think it was a thing, I didn't think it would be really love.
00:27:15.672 --> 00:27:28.007
I didn't think it was a thing, I didn't think it would be a job, I don't think I was that good at it, and she found out that she was pretty good at it and she, as part of her experiment, she tracked down someone from the Guild of Animators who was currently working at Walt Disney, asked him for help.
00:27:28.007 --> 00:27:39.534
She had quite severe dyslexic issues, so her letter and email to him was so well crafted in terms of literacy performance because she cared so much.
00:27:39.534 --> 00:27:52.615
It was the most beautiful email, really persuasive, and she got a reply that when you print it out it's two pages long of this animator who's currently responsible for Mickey Mouse at Walt Disney Studios.
00:27:52.615 --> 00:27:57.830
He wrote back and said I had learning difficulties as well at school and look at me now.
00:27:57.830 --> 00:27:59.776
I'm so pleased you reached out.
00:27:59.776 --> 00:28:01.165
Here's how to start.
00:28:01.165 --> 00:28:03.792
You have to work out what sort of characters you like to draw.
00:28:03.792 --> 00:28:11.016
Start with paper and pencil, then move on to this, work out your style Really great professional advice.
00:28:11.016 --> 00:28:17.013
And then on the next page it kept going and going and like if you have any pocket money, here's the equipment you should buy.
00:28:17.013 --> 00:28:22.876
She wrote back and it was all scaffolded through the program how to appropriately say thank you.
00:28:22.876 --> 00:28:29.046
And he sent her back this personalized drawing of Mickey Mouse just saying I hope to work with you someday.
00:28:29.046 --> 00:28:36.960
She was transformed, her teachers called me and the team and said could we have a meeting with you?
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:45.071
I'm like, yeah, of course, like thinking something's gone wrong or maybe a appearance challenge, like the creation.
00:28:45.071 --> 00:28:47.115
So early they were in tears.
00:28:47.115 --> 00:28:50.708
They said she never spoke and she has transformed.
00:28:50.929 --> 00:29:00.715
And we hear stories like this the whole time, of reaching everyone, you know, but also the most disengaged who didn't feel like there was a place for them.
00:29:00.715 --> 00:29:08.527
So we have schools plugging this work in on days where they have attendance issues, because it's about them.
00:29:08.527 --> 00:29:17.530
The students see, and you know, I know, there's a lot of pressure around literacy and numeracy and the time, and that's why we focus so much on that.
00:29:17.530 --> 00:29:19.415
What is the return on education for this?
00:29:19.415 --> 00:29:32.357
But what we're seeing from the latest PISA data is very clear correlation that students who have the chance in school to explore their future see improvement across all learning strategies.
00:29:32.357 --> 00:29:34.923
See improvement across all learning strategies.
00:29:34.923 --> 00:29:49.731
The evidence is there that if we can buy 15 hours for this work, which is curriculum aligned anyway, and take 15 to 20 hours out of year six, we're going to see improvement on all of these other measures as well as the light bulbs.
00:29:50.884 --> 00:29:52.125
Yeah, not just the 205%.
00:29:52.125 --> 00:29:58.951
What a powerful story that you just shared with that student who could see now the light.
00:29:58.951 --> 00:30:10.227
They could see the clear pathway in their world, in their passion, and they knew through this project, through this work, that they can now aspire to that.
00:30:10.227 --> 00:30:13.655
It's given them that golden ticket, so to speak.
00:30:22.144 --> 00:30:23.430
And the realization that they might change their mind.
00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:26.864
50% of the experiments normally result in a change of plan as they find out oh that's not at all what I wanted to be.
00:30:26.864 --> 00:30:27.586
I didn't realize.
00:30:27.586 --> 00:30:30.275
I don't think I could be a vet because they put dogs down all day.
00:30:30.275 --> 00:30:32.407
We like that.
00:30:32.407 --> 00:30:34.054
50% of them change in their mind.
00:30:34.054 --> 00:30:40.347
You know it's no coincidence that there's the same kind of levels that we're seeing of non-completion of tertiary qualifications.
00:30:40.347 --> 00:30:45.708
But because they're getting a chance to test it out earlier, we're de-risking it.
00:30:45.708 --> 00:30:49.979
It's a really low stakes way to de-risk their future.
00:30:49.979 --> 00:30:57.673
But as well as that, they're learning that they change, that the world changes, that they've got the confidence and the skills to actually start.
00:30:57.673 --> 00:31:00.269
Life isn't after year 12.
00:31:00.269 --> 00:31:01.192
Life is now.
00:31:01.192 --> 00:31:02.695
You can do something about it now.
00:31:03.265 --> 00:31:04.366
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:04.366 --> 00:31:10.499
So what would be your ultimate wish with your work at this point in time, Liv?
00:31:12.487 --> 00:31:16.156
Well, obviously we work across the research piece.
00:31:16.156 --> 00:31:27.517
So we're constantly building that evidence base, work closely into the OECD career readiness indicators publishing, trying to push the impact for this in education.
00:31:27.517 --> 00:31:32.232
And it's not just primaries, we work for primaries and secondaries.
00:31:32.232 --> 00:31:36.269
So on the research point, we push on that.
00:31:36.269 --> 00:31:52.834
We're also lobbying pretty hard from a policy perspective and something just came out yesterday around ambitions that 50% of tertiary education will be vet instead of uni, so it will be a 50-50 split and that perceived equity of pathways.
00:31:52.834 --> 00:31:57.271
That can't be done at the end, that has to happen from the beginning.
00:31:57.773 --> 00:32:14.078
So there's some real big federal targets about equity, participation and types of tertiary that need quality careers education from primary to actually change perceptions and pathways and open up that space for students to design their own pathway.
00:32:14.078 --> 00:32:26.935
But then on the practice side we obviously know that we could be, you know, have all the theory in the world, but unless we're supporting professional development and have tools to help practice that really work, then that's no good.
00:32:26.935 --> 00:32:32.631
So from our perspective we're really trying to scale how this works for schools.
00:32:32.631 --> 00:32:51.875
So if there are clusters of schools beyond the ones you know we're working with several different clusters of New South Wales schools then, you know, reach out and we can put together a plan for either semester two, for this year's transition you know it's all there and ready to go or for 2026 as a bigger project.
00:32:52.267 --> 00:33:01.635
Yeah, fantastic, and we'll put all of the links and references in our podcast notes today for those who can click through and find out further.
00:33:01.635 --> 00:33:03.551
Look in terms of closing.
00:33:03.551 --> 00:33:12.394
We always ask our guests which educational leaders have inspired you and what keeps you hopeful about the future of education.
00:33:12.394 --> 00:33:12.655
Liv.
00:33:15.127 --> 00:33:16.373
Oh, so many.
00:33:16.373 --> 00:33:17.015
That inspired me.
00:33:17.015 --> 00:33:24.045
I mean, last week I watched Guy Claxton's lecture for the Dean's Lecture at University of Melbourne.
00:33:24.045 --> 00:33:32.400
I love the work that Melbourne Metrics are doing around trying to change, you know, the ATAR and what does success look like?
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.525
Um, and that broader definition of success.
00:33:35.525 --> 00:33:41.702
I thought Guy's lecture around the science of learning, um, was particularly useful.
00:33:42.064 --> 00:33:52.271
Um, because I think we can fill into this dichotomy and we're often up against um, you know there's no room for anything apart from explicit instruction of literacy and numeracy.
00:33:52.271 --> 00:33:58.349
So for me to have, you know, we're about the whole student.
00:33:58.349 --> 00:34:05.857
We have to keep an eye on what the future is and success for us is about that future for those individual, complex, unique students.
00:34:05.857 --> 00:34:11.976
And if we spend all our time, you know if they're disengaged we're not going to have any impact.
00:34:11.976 --> 00:34:14.032
We can't just keep hammering the same thing.
00:34:14.032 --> 00:34:20.201
We can take some time to look at the whole student and dial up the agency piece without being no explicit instruction.
00:34:20.201 --> 00:34:21.389
It's not that dichotomy.
00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:27.458
So his work was great and I also love the debate that's happening beyond education.
00:34:27.498 --> 00:34:30.530
Really that has an impact on education around AI.
00:34:30.530 --> 00:34:57.327
You know every conversation, every conference has a big part of AI, I think, the role of where it's nutting out, is that real focus on what's going to be most critical around curiosity, critical thinking, those things that make us the most human, and that's what we're all about as well that true sense of agency, not choice over a project.
00:34:57.327 --> 00:35:02.318
But how do we develop people that have real, true agency over their learning and life?
00:35:02.318 --> 00:35:07.494
And that's yeah, that's what I'm really fascinated by at the moment.
00:35:07.494 --> 00:35:18.532
Not AI just because we could do it, but what's the purpose of it, what's the place of it and how do we use it to move us forward as humans rather than overtake.
00:35:18.994 --> 00:35:26.695
Yeah, there's some terrific educators that you've mentioned in that piece and the AI is very relevant.
00:35:26.695 --> 00:35:32.094
People listening saying, well, where does AI fit in career aspirations?
00:35:32.094 --> 00:35:35.862
Isn't AI going to take all of the jobs, liv?
00:35:35.862 --> 00:35:37.664
What's your response to that?
00:35:37.664 --> 00:38:13.204
Thank you, thank you, you, yeah, yeah, well said and you can see that moral imperative definitely coming through.
00:38:13.204 --> 00:38:21.010
So, for principals listening who are curious about Become and they want to learn more, what would be the first steps?
00:38:21.010 --> 00:38:21.251
Liv?
00:38:22.126 --> 00:38:23.492
Oh, you can go to the website.
00:38:23.492 --> 00:38:31.871
I'll leave a link for the details of the primary program and you can reach out through there to book a chat.
00:38:31.871 --> 00:38:34.878
Or from a cluster point of view.
00:38:34.878 --> 00:38:48.059
Often we work with the Director of Educational Leadership to do it at a cluster level and have a leadership briefing and then open up a program for that cluster of schools and a community of practice.
00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:49.501
Yeah, terrific.
00:38:49.501 --> 00:38:53.414
Yeah, we'll put all of those links in our podcast notes.
00:38:53.414 --> 00:38:57.143
Terrific, yeah, we'll put all of those links in our podcast notes.
00:38:57.143 --> 00:39:04.309
Liv, thank you for your insight, your passion, reminding us of the power of broadening student aspirations early.
00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:12.320
Your work is really shaping how we think about learning, belonging and future readiness, and how leadership plays a central role in that a central role in that To our listeners.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:19.139
Thank you for joining us and you'll find all of our links to the research resources and upcoming opportunities.
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.009
So thank you again, liv.
00:39:22.414 --> 00:39:22.855
Thanks, Drew.
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